Re: What does this mean for the future of JavaFX on iOS?

[Felix Bembrick]

Well I did ask Johan what AOT they are going to use instead of RoboVM but there 
has not be a response yet.

Let's face it, without highly optimised AOT, Java and/or JavaFX on mobiles is 
simply not viable which in turn implies that JavaFX itself is not even worth 
looking at... RIP.

But I take Johan on his word that the demise of RoboVM will not negatively 
affect Gluon or its products and he has done absolutely amazing things 
throughout his career. So I am assuming he as a plan B.

I really wish Gluon somehow took complete ownership of the entire OpenJFX 
project as JavaFX could not be in safer hands.

> On 19 Apr 2016, at 17:43, Tobi  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> in my opinion the abandonment of RoboVM is a very big step back for Java on 
> Mobile because there is NO real alternative to RoboVM. So it has definitely a 
> big impact on Gluon and JavaFX on Mobile. Gluon uses RoboVM 1.8 - and old 
> version of RoboVM which will be not developed anymore. So no serious company 
> will decide to use a technology which is winding down! 
> 
> So ok, what could Gluon do now? Using OpenJDK9 for iOS and Android? Currently 
> definitely not! OpenJDK9 for Mobile is in an experimental state and uses the 
> Zero interpreter! So the performance will be not acceptable until the OpenJDK 
> 9 provides the same level of AOT like RoboVM - or even better! 
> 
> What can we do now to reach the goal to develop modern mobile applications 
> with Java - instead of with Xamarian…?
> 
> We need as soon as possible one or more companies to continue the development 
> of one of the RoboVM 1.8 forks (like BugVM) or merge the know how of RoboVM 
> with the current OpenJDK9 efforts… We need commitments of big companies to 
> Java like Oracle, Intel, IBM, SAP! We need the RoboVM team which breaks out 
> of Microsofts Xamarian world! In my dreams Niklas, Henric and their team take 
> the money of Xamarian and Microsoft and revive their baby „RoboVM“ in the 
> context of a fork based on open sourced RoboVM 1.8… Maybe with in a join 
> venture with Intel (concerning Intel’s Multi-OS engine)
> 
> What do you think about it guys? What are your plans Niklas…?
> 
> Best regards,
> Tobi
> 
> //
> follow me on twitter: https://twitter.com/tobibley 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Am 18.04.2016 um 19:15 schrieb Johan Vos :
>> 
>> Indeed, this doesn't have any impact on JavaFX.
>> The Gluon tools are currently using the RoboVM AOT 1.8, which was the last
>> open-source version.
>> 
>> RoboVM delivered a whole set of products, including an AOT, but also a
>> system that provides some JNI functionality, a set of bindings that create
>> Java classes that have a 1-1 mapping to native iOS classes, and a whole
>> "Studio" allowing developers to create applications.
>> 
>> Only the AOT is relevant to us. We don't use the bindings, as we happen to
>> have a great set of UI classes: the JavaFX platform. We don't need the
>> studio, as we directly provide plugins for NetBeans, IntelliJ and Eclipse.
>> 
>> The idea of JavaFX is to deliver a cross-platform UI for all devices.
>> RoboVM took a different approach, as they mainly promoted creating an iOS
>> specific UI (using the Java bindings to the native iOS UI components) and
>> an Android specific UI.
>> 
>> We had different views on a cross-platform UI (JavaFX) versus a
>> platform-specific UI, but here is no doubt the RoboVM team consist of great
>> developers and it is a real pity and shame they won't be able to continue
>> working on their product.
>> 
>> But for JavaFX and Gluon, it doesn't make a difference.
>> 
>> - Johan
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Steve Hannah  wrote:
>>> 
>>> According to Gluon, they're not impacted by this.
>>> https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Felix Bembrick 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 I just read this article which states that RoboVM is effectively
 "shutting down".
 
 https://www.voxxed.com/blog/2016/04/robovm/
 
 Given that they seem to be a critical part of the puzzle that is making
 JavaFX viable on mobile platforms, what does this actually mean for that
 goal?
 
 Is there an alternative technology or product that can fill this void? Or
 is the final nail in the coffin for JavaFX to ever be a truly viable cross
 platform technology?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Felix
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Steve Hannah
>>> Web Lite Solutions Corp.
> 

Re: What does this mean for the future of JavaFX on iOS?

[Tobi]

Hi,

in my opinion the abandonment of RoboVM is a very big step back for Java on 
Mobile because there is NO real alternative to RoboVM. So it has definitely a 
big impact on Gluon and JavaFX on Mobile. Gluon uses RoboVM 1.8 - and old 
version of RoboVM which will be not developed anymore. So no serious company 
will decide to use a technology which is winding down! 

So ok, what could Gluon do now? Using OpenJDK9 for iOS and Android? Currently 
definitely not! OpenJDK9 for Mobile is in an experimental state and uses the 
Zero interpreter! So the performance will be not acceptable until the OpenJDK 9 
provides the same level of AOT like RoboVM - or even better! 

What can we do now to reach the goal to develop modern mobile applications with 
Java - instead of with Xamarian…?

We need as soon as possible one or more companies to continue the development 
of one of the RoboVM 1.8 forks (like BugVM) or merge the know how of RoboVM 
with the current OpenJDK9 efforts… We need commitments of big companies to Java 
like Oracle, Intel, IBM, SAP! We need the RoboVM team which breaks out of 
Microsofts Xamarian world! In my dreams Niklas, Henric and their team take the 
money of Xamarian and Microsoft and revive their baby „RoboVM“ in the context 
of a fork based on open sourced RoboVM 1.8… Maybe with in a join venture with 
Intel (concerning Intel’s Multi-OS engine)

What do you think about it guys? What are your plans Niklas…?

Best regards,
Tobi

//
follow me on twitter: https://twitter.com/tobibley 





> Am 18.04.2016 um 19:15 schrieb Johan Vos :
> 
> Indeed, this doesn't have any impact on JavaFX.
> The Gluon tools are currently using the RoboVM AOT 1.8, which was the last
> open-source version.
> 
> RoboVM delivered a whole set of products, including an AOT, but also a
> system that provides some JNI functionality, a set of bindings that create
> Java classes that have a 1-1 mapping to native iOS classes, and a whole
> "Studio" allowing developers to create applications.
> 
> Only the AOT is relevant to us. We don't use the bindings, as we happen to
> have a great set of UI classes: the JavaFX platform. We don't need the
> studio, as we directly provide plugins for NetBeans, IntelliJ and Eclipse.
> 
> The idea of JavaFX is to deliver a cross-platform UI for all devices.
> RoboVM took a different approach, as they mainly promoted creating an iOS
> specific UI (using the Java bindings to the native iOS UI components) and
> an Android specific UI.
> 
> We had different views on a cross-platform UI (JavaFX) versus a
> platform-specific UI, but here is no doubt the RoboVM team consist of great
> developers and it is a real pity and shame they won't be able to continue
> working on their product.
> 
> But for JavaFX and Gluon, it doesn't make a difference.
> 
> - Johan
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Steve Hannah  wrote:
> 
>> According to Gluon, they're not impacted by this.
>> https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Felix Bembrick 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I just read this article which states that RoboVM is effectively
>>> "shutting down".
>>> 
>>> https://www.voxxed.com/blog/2016/04/robovm/
>>> 
>>> Given that they seem to be a critical part of the puzzle that is making
>>> JavaFX viable on mobile platforms, what does this actually mean for that
>>> goal?
>>> 
>>> Is there an alternative technology or product that can fill this void? Or
>>> is the final nail in the coffin for JavaFX to ever be a truly viable cross
>>> platform technology?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Felix
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Steve Hannah
>> Web Lite Solutions Corp.
>> 

Re: What does this mean for the future of JavaFX on iOS?

[Sven Reimers]

Seems there are more forks out there..

https://github.com/bugvm/bugvm

Sven

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Felix Bembrick 
wrote:

> Good luck to you Erik. I totally agree with you and hope you succeed. If
> there's any way I can help, I will do just that.
>
> Felix
>
> > On 19 Apr 2016, at 04:39, Erik De Rijcke 
> wrote:
> >
> > I'm currently looking if I can get some robovm fork kickstarted. (
> > https://github.com/FlexoVM/flexovm/issues/4 ).
> >
> > It's really a shame that for this one time Java has a real nice aot
> > llvm compiler, MS kills it. Being able to compile Java (or any
> > bytecode language) to a native, fast and small executable (especially
> > for arm/embedded use which does not require an Oracle license) would
> > be *really* cool. Let's see if we can continue to make this happen in
> > one way or another.
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Felix Bembrick
> >  wrote:
> >> So what AOT will you be using now? The last RoboVM AOT or something
> else?
> >>
> >>> On 19 Apr 2016, at 03:15, Johan Vos  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Indeed, this doesn't have any impact on JavaFX.
> >>> The Gluon tools are currently using the RoboVM AOT 1.8, which was the
> last open-source version.
> >>>
> >>> RoboVM delivered a whole set of products, including an AOT, but also a
> system that provides some JNI functionality, a set of bindings that create
> Java classes that have a 1-1 mapping to native iOS classes, and a whole
> "Studio" allowing developers to create applications.
> >>>
> >>> Only the AOT is relevant to us. We don't use the bindings, as we
> happen to have a great set of UI classes: the JavaFX platform. We don't
> need the studio, as we directly provide plugins for NetBeans, IntelliJ and
> Eclipse.
> >>>
> >>> The idea of JavaFX is to deliver a cross-platform UI for all devices.
> RoboVM took a different approach, as they mainly promoted creating an iOS
> specific UI (using the Java bindings to the native iOS UI components) and
> an Android specific UI.
> >>>
> >>> We had different views on a cross-platform UI (JavaFX) versus a
> platform-specific UI, but here is no doubt the RoboVM team consist of great
> developers and it is a real pity and shame they won't be able to continue
> working on their product.
> >>>
> >>> But for JavaFX and Gluon, it doesn't make a difference.
> >>>
> >>> - Johan
> >>>
> >>>
>  On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Steve Hannah 
> wrote:
>  According to Gluon, they're not impacted by this.
>  https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041
> 
> 
> 
> > On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Felix Bembrick <
> felix.bembr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I just read this article which states that RoboVM is effectively
> "shutting down".
> >
> > https://www.voxxed.com/blog/2016/04/robovm/
> >
> > Given that they seem to be a critical part of the puzzle that is
> making JavaFX viable on mobile platforms, what does this actually mean for
> that goal?
> >
> > Is there an alternative technology or product that can fill this
> void? Or is the final nail in the coffin for JavaFX to ever be a truly
> viable cross platform technology?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Felix
> 
> 
> 
>  --
>  Steve Hannah
>  Web Lite Solutions Corp.
> >>>
>



-- 
Sven Reimers

* Senior Expert Software Architect
* Java Champion
* NetBeans Dream Team Member: http://dreamteam.netbeans.org
* Community Leader  NetBeans: http://community.java.net/netbeans
  Desktop Java:
http://community.java.net/javadesktop
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* Duke's Choice Award Winner 2009
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Re: What does this mean for the future of JavaFX on iOS?

[Felix Bembrick]

Good luck to you Erik. I totally agree with you and hope you succeed. If 
there's any way I can help, I will do just that.

Felix

> On 19 Apr 2016, at 04:39, Erik De Rijcke  wrote:
> 
> I'm currently looking if I can get some robovm fork kickstarted. (
> https://github.com/FlexoVM/flexovm/issues/4 ).
> 
> It's really a shame that for this one time Java has a real nice aot
> llvm compiler, MS kills it. Being able to compile Java (or any
> bytecode language) to a native, fast and small executable (especially
> for arm/embedded use which does not require an Oracle license) would
> be *really* cool. Let's see if we can continue to make this happen in
> one way or another.
> 
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Felix Bembrick
>  wrote:
>> So what AOT will you be using now? The last RoboVM AOT or something else?
>> 
>>> On 19 Apr 2016, at 03:15, Johan Vos  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Indeed, this doesn't have any impact on JavaFX.
>>> The Gluon tools are currently using the RoboVM AOT 1.8, which was the last 
>>> open-source version.
>>> 
>>> RoboVM delivered a whole set of products, including an AOT, but also a 
>>> system that provides some JNI functionality, a set of bindings that create 
>>> Java classes that have a 1-1 mapping to native iOS classes, and a whole 
>>> "Studio" allowing developers to create applications.
>>> 
>>> Only the AOT is relevant to us. We don't use the bindings, as we happen to 
>>> have a great set of UI classes: the JavaFX platform. We don't need the 
>>> studio, as we directly provide plugins for NetBeans, IntelliJ and Eclipse.
>>> 
>>> The idea of JavaFX is to deliver a cross-platform UI for all devices. 
>>> RoboVM took a different approach, as they mainly promoted creating an iOS 
>>> specific UI (using the Java bindings to the native iOS UI components) and 
>>> an Android specific UI.
>>> 
>>> We had different views on a cross-platform UI (JavaFX) versus a 
>>> platform-specific UI, but here is no doubt the RoboVM team consist of great 
>>> developers and it is a real pity and shame they won't be able to continue 
>>> working on their product.
>>> 
>>> But for JavaFX and Gluon, it doesn't make a difference.
>>> 
>>> - Johan
>>> 
>>> 
 On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Steve Hannah  wrote:
 According to Gluon, they're not impacted by this.
 https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041
 
 
 
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Felix Bembrick 
>  wrote:
> I just read this article which states that RoboVM is effectively 
> "shutting down".
> 
> https://www.voxxed.com/blog/2016/04/robovm/
> 
> Given that they seem to be a critical part of the puzzle that is making 
> JavaFX viable on mobile platforms, what does this actually mean for that 
> goal?
> 
> Is there an alternative technology or product that can fill this void? Or 
> is the final nail in the coffin for JavaFX to ever be a truly viable 
> cross platform technology?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Felix
 
 
 
 --
 Steve Hannah
 Web Lite Solutions Corp.
>>> 

Re: What does this mean for the future of JavaFX on iOS?

[Erik De Rijcke]

I'm currently looking if I can get some robovm fork kickstarted. (
https://github.com/FlexoVM/flexovm/issues/4 ).

It's really a shame that for this one time Java has a real nice aot
llvm compiler, MS kills it. Being able to compile Java (or any
bytecode language) to a native, fast and small executable (especially
for arm/embedded use which does not require an Oracle license) would
be *really* cool. Let's see if we can continue to make this happen in
one way or another.

On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Felix Bembrick
 wrote:
> So what AOT will you be using now? The last RoboVM AOT or something else?
>
>> On 19 Apr 2016, at 03:15, Johan Vos  wrote:
>>
>> Indeed, this doesn't have any impact on JavaFX.
>> The Gluon tools are currently using the RoboVM AOT 1.8, which was the last 
>> open-source version.
>>
>> RoboVM delivered a whole set of products, including an AOT, but also a 
>> system that provides some JNI functionality, a set of bindings that create 
>> Java classes that have a 1-1 mapping to native iOS classes, and a whole 
>> "Studio" allowing developers to create applications.
>>
>> Only the AOT is relevant to us. We don't use the bindings, as we happen to 
>> have a great set of UI classes: the JavaFX platform. We don't need the 
>> studio, as we directly provide plugins for NetBeans, IntelliJ and Eclipse.
>>
>> The idea of JavaFX is to deliver a cross-platform UI for all devices. RoboVM 
>> took a different approach, as they mainly promoted creating an iOS specific 
>> UI (using the Java bindings to the native iOS UI components) and an Android 
>> specific UI.
>>
>> We had different views on a cross-platform UI (JavaFX) versus a 
>> platform-specific UI, but here is no doubt the RoboVM team consist of great 
>> developers and it is a real pity and shame they won't be able to continue 
>> working on their product.
>>
>> But for JavaFX and Gluon, it doesn't make a difference.
>>
>> - Johan
>>
>>
>>> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Steve Hannah  wrote:
>>> According to Gluon, they're not impacted by this.
>>> https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041
>>>
>>>
>>>
 On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Felix Bembrick  
 wrote:
 I just read this article which states that RoboVM is effectively "shutting 
 down".

 https://www.voxxed.com/blog/2016/04/robovm/

 Given that they seem to be a critical part of the puzzle that is making 
 JavaFX viable on mobile platforms, what does this actually mean for that 
 goal?

 Is there an alternative technology or product that can fill this void? Or 
 is the final nail in the coffin for JavaFX to ever be a truly viable cross 
 platform technology?

 Thanks,

 Felix
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Steve Hannah
>>> Web Lite Solutions Corp.
>>

Re: What does this mean for the future of JavaFX on iOS?

[Felix Bembrick]

I wonder what the performance of alternatives to RoboVM is like...

> On 19 Apr 2016, at 03:09, Steve Hannah  wrote:
> 
> https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784242565357568
> 
> The Gluon blog post from a few months ago (when @robovm was acquired by
>> @xamarin) is still almost entirely relevant
>> http://gluonhq.com/gluon-supports-multiple-jvms/
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Felix Bembrick 
> wrote:
> 
>> So what do they use instead?
>> 
>>> On 19 Apr 2016, at 02:52, Steve Hannah  wrote:
>>> 
>>> According to Gluon, they're not impacted by this.
>>> https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Felix Bembrick <
>> felix.bembr...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 I just read this article which states that RoboVM is effectively
>> "shutting
 down".
 
 https://www.voxxed.com/blog/2016/04/robovm/
 
 Given that they seem to be a critical part of the puzzle that is making
 JavaFX viable on mobile platforms, what does this actually mean for that
 goal?
 
 Is there an alternative technology or product that can fill this void?
>> Or
 is the final nail in the coffin for JavaFX to ever be a truly viable
>> cross
 platform technology?
 
 Thanks,
> https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784242565357568
> 
> The Gluon blog post from a few months ago (when @robovm was acquired by
>> @xamarin) is still almost entirely relevant
>> http://gluonhq.com/gluon-supports-multiple-jvms/
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Felix Bembrick 
> wrote:
> 
>> So what do they use instead?
>> 
>>> On 19 Apr 2016, at 02:52, Steve Hannah  wrote:
>>> 
>>> According to Gluon, they're not impacted by this.
>>> https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Felix Bembrick <
>> felix.bembr...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 I just read this article which states that RoboVM is effectively
>> "shutting
 down".
 
 https://www.voxxed.com/blog/2016/04/robovm/
 
 Given that they seem to be a critical part of the puzzle that is making
 JavaFX viable on mobile platforms, what does this actually mean for that
 goal?
 
 Is there an alternative technology or product that can fill this void?
>> Or
 is the final nail in the coffin for JavaFX to ever be a truly viable
>> cross
 platform technology?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Felix
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Steve Hannah
>>> Web Lite Solutions Corp.
>>> 
>>> --94eb2c0561622831410530c52f17
>>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> 
>>> According to Gluon, theyre not impacted by
>> this.=
>>> https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041;>
>> https://t=
>>> witter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041
>> 

Re: What does this mean for the future of JavaFX on iOS?

[Johan Vos]

Indeed, this doesn't have any impact on JavaFX.
The Gluon tools are currently using the RoboVM AOT 1.8, which was the last
open-source version.

RoboVM delivered a whole set of products, including an AOT, but also a
system that provides some JNI functionality, a set of bindings that create
Java classes that have a 1-1 mapping to native iOS classes, and a whole
"Studio" allowing developers to create applications.

Only the AOT is relevant to us. We don't use the bindings, as we happen to
have a great set of UI classes: the JavaFX platform. We don't need the
studio, as we directly provide plugins for NetBeans, IntelliJ and Eclipse.

The idea of JavaFX is to deliver a cross-platform UI for all devices.
RoboVM took a different approach, as they mainly promoted creating an iOS
specific UI (using the Java bindings to the native iOS UI components) and
an Android specific UI.

We had different views on a cross-platform UI (JavaFX) versus a
platform-specific UI, but here is no doubt the RoboVM team consist of great
developers and it is a real pity and shame they won't be able to continue
working on their product.

But for JavaFX and Gluon, it doesn't make a difference.

- Johan


On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Steve Hannah  wrote:

> According to Gluon, they're not impacted by this.
> https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Felix Bembrick 
> wrote:
>
>> I just read this article which states that RoboVM is effectively
>> "shutting down".
>>
>> https://www.voxxed.com/blog/2016/04/robovm/
>>
>> Given that they seem to be a critical part of the puzzle that is making
>> JavaFX viable on mobile platforms, what does this actually mean for that
>> goal?
>>
>> Is there an alternative technology or product that can fill this void? Or
>> is the final nail in the coffin for JavaFX to ever be a truly viable cross
>> platform technology?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Felix
>
>
>
>
> --
> Steve Hannah
> Web Lite Solutions Corp.
>

Re: What does this mean for the future of JavaFX on iOS?

[Steve Hannah]

https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784242565357568

The Gluon blog post from a few months ago (when @robovm was acquired by
> @xamarin) is still almost entirely relevant
> http://gluonhq.com/gluon-supports-multiple-jvms/


On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Felix Bembrick 
wrote:

> So what do they use instead?
>
> > On 19 Apr 2016, at 02:52, Steve Hannah  wrote:
> >
> > According to Gluon, they're not impacted by this.
> > https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Felix Bembrick <
> felix.bembr...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I just read this article which states that RoboVM is effectively
> "shutting
> >> down".
> >>
> >> https://www.voxxed.com/blog/2016/04/robovm/
> >>
> >> Given that they seem to be a critical part of the puzzle that is making
> >> JavaFX viable on mobile platforms, what does this actually mean for that
> >> goal?
> >>
> >> Is there an alternative technology or product that can fill this void?
> Or
> >> is the final nail in the coffin for JavaFX to ever be a truly viable
> cross
> >> platform technology?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Felix
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Steve Hannah
> > Web Lite Solutions Corp.
> >
> > --94eb2c0561622831410530c52f17
> > Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > According to Gluon, theyre not impacted by
> this.=
> > https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041;>
> https://t=
> > witter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041
> 

Re: What does this mean for the future of JavaFX on iOS?

[Felix Bembrick]

So what do they use instead?

> On 19 Apr 2016, at 02:52, Steve Hannah  wrote:
> 
> According to Gluon, they're not impacted by this.
> https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Felix Bembrick 
> wrote:
> 
>> I just read this article which states that RoboVM is effectively "shutting
>> down".
>> 
>> https://www.voxxed.com/blog/2016/04/robovm/
>> 
>> Given that they seem to be a critical part of the puzzle that is making
>> JavaFX viable on mobile platforms, what does this actually mean for that
>> goal?
>> 
>> Is there an alternative technology or product that can fill this void? Or
>> is the final nail in the coffin for JavaFX to ever be a truly viable cross
>> platform technology?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Felix
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steve Hannah
> Web Lite Solutions Corp.
> 
> --94eb2c0561622831410530c52f17
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> According to Gluon, theyre not impacted by this.=
> https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041;>https://t=
> 

Re: What does this mean for the future of JavaFX on iOS?

[Steve Hannah]

According to Gluon, they're not impacted by this.
https://twitter.com/GluonHQ/status/721784161728471041



On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Felix Bembrick 
wrote:

> I just read this article which states that RoboVM is effectively "shutting
> down".
>
> https://www.voxxed.com/blog/2016/04/robovm/
>
> Given that they seem to be a critical part of the puzzle that is making
> JavaFX viable on mobile platforms, what does this actually mean for that
> goal?
>
> Is there an alternative technology or product that can fill this void? Or
> is the final nail in the coffin for JavaFX to ever be a truly viable cross
> platform technology?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Felix




-- 
Steve Hannah
Web Lite Solutions Corp.

What does this mean for the future of JavaFX on iOS?

[Felix Bembrick]

I just read this article which states that RoboVM is effectively "shutting 
down".

https://www.voxxed.com/blog/2016/04/robovm/

Given that they seem to be a critical part of the puzzle that is making JavaFX 
viable on mobile platforms, what does this actually mean for that goal?

Is there an alternative technology or product that can fill this void? Or is 
the final nail in the coffin for JavaFX to ever be a truly viable cross 
platform technology?

Thanks,

Felix

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Mike Hearn]

I'm pretty surprised by this thread.

Guys, JavaFX is a widget toolkit. That's it, that's all it is. GUIs haven't
changed that much in their general design and capabilities for decades now,
probably the last major 'innovations' being things like the MS Office
Ribbon.

JFX has all the capabilities I'd hope for in a widget toolkit, plus a lot
more. As a bonus it's open source and cross platform, with a full time team
of developers. Just take a moment to appreciate that for a second! What's
the competition? Qt and that's about it, right?

Software can always be better, but this hysteria over "zomg oracle is
abandoning us!" doesn't seem justified. Even if all Oracle did from now on
was fix bugs and keep it working as the underlying platforms evolve, OK,
it's an open source library with people paid to fix bugs. That's still
better than many of the open source libraries I depend on!

But they aren't just fixing bugs, they're also making enhancements. Yes,
Java 9 is going to be boring because Jigsaw is forcing Team FX to go pay
off some technical debt by making previously private-but-used APIs public.
OK, fine, that amounts to new features for all 3 of you that weren't
cheating previously ;)

Beyond that, the fact that "draggable tabs" is the most user visible
feature planned says to me what I already felt  - JavaFX is pretty mature.
It'd be nice if Scene Builder was being officially distributed again, and I
find the decision not do so baffling (perhaps they're assuming IDE makers
will take it off their hands), but the app is still out there and still
works. I suspect once the Jigsaw changes are finished off further
enhancements will be things like better performance, maybe some new
effects, etc. Nice to haves but not essentials.

IMO the biggest pain-point now isn't even GUI related stuff, it's the lack
of a modern replacement for Java Web Start. I made UpdateFX to try and fill
this hole but it's not as good as something that a skilled full time dev
with 6 months on hand would make.


On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:

> JavaFX support for multi-resolution images is really a killer feature, as
> it simply is ridiculous how small images render on HiDPI that are scaled
> for LowDPI.
>
> For JDK 10, I'd kindly ask to review the list of essentials that I sent
> you some months back by personal mail.
>
> -Markus
>
> -Original Message-
> From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf
> Of Kevin Rushforth
> Sent: Mittwoch, 2. Dezember 2015 01:29
> To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
>
> Just to chime in on a couple of points that have been raised in this
> discussion...
>
> * We are interested in working with the OpenJFX community to improve
> JavaFX. In particular: if you find a bug, file it (via bugs.java.com if
> you don't have a JBS account); if you want to contribute a patch to fix the
> bug, we'd love to review it; if you have an idea for an improvement, file
> it as an RFE (enhancement) and start up a thread on the mailing list.
> Larger features need a JEP, but smaller improvements do not.
>
> Please be aware that as part of the OpenJDK community, we are bound by the
> processes of the OpenJDK, including the need for a signed OCA in order to
> contribute, and before you can get a JBS account. If you are dissatisfied
> with those processes and policies, then I invite you to discuss it on the
> disc...@openjdk.java.net alias, and not here.
>
>
> * While we aren't planning a huge number of features in JDK 9, we are
> delivering some interesting improvements. Jigsaw is the big release driver
> and most of our effort on JavaFX is to align with that. For those of you
> who weren't at JavaOne, here is a list of things that are currently planned
> for JDK 9:
>
> - A modularized JavaFX (into 6 core modules + deploy, swing interop, swt
> interop)
>
> - JEP 253 -- Control Skins & additional CSS APIs (proper support for
> third-party controls)
>
> - High DPI enhancements (full support on Windows; add support for Linux)
>
> - Public API for commonly used methods from internal packages:
> * Nested Event Loop
> * Pulse Listener
> * Platform Startup
> * Text API (HitTest, etc)
> * Static utility functions (under investigation)
>
> - New versions of WebKit and GStreamer
>
> And here is an incomplete list of things we are thinking about for after
> JDK 9, possibly in an update release. In fact, the recently proposed JDK
> 9 slip [1] makes it possible to consider pulling a few of them into JDK 9,
> so let us know which ones you consider most important:
>
> - Provide a JavaFX equivalent for JEP 272 / AWT ‘Desktop’ API
>
> - Make UI Control Behaviors public
>
> - UI Control Actions API
>
> - Public Focus Traversal API
>
> - JavaFX support for multi-resolution images
>
> - Draggable tabs
>
> - Image IO
>
>
> -- Kevin
>
> [1]
> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/jdk9-dev/2015-December/003149.html
>
>
>

RE: Future of JavaFX

[Markus KARG]

JavaFX support for multi-resolution images is really a killer feature, as it 
simply is ridiculous how small images render on HiDPI that are scaled for 
LowDPI.

For JDK 10, I'd kindly ask to review the list of essentials that I sent you 
some months back by personal mail.

-Markus

-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of 
Kevin Rushforth
Sent: Mittwoch, 2. Dezember 2015 01:29
To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX

Just to chime in on a couple of points that have been raised in this 
discussion...

* We are interested in working with the OpenJFX community to improve JavaFX. In 
particular: if you find a bug, file it (via bugs.java.com if you don't have a 
JBS account); if you want to contribute a patch to fix the bug, we'd love to 
review it; if you have an idea for an improvement, file it as an RFE 
(enhancement) and start up a thread on the mailing list. Larger features need a 
JEP, but smaller improvements do not.

Please be aware that as part of the OpenJDK community, we are bound by the 
processes of the OpenJDK, including the need for a signed OCA in order to 
contribute, and before you can get a JBS account. If you are dissatisfied with 
those processes and policies, then I invite you to discuss it on the 
disc...@openjdk.java.net alias, and not here.


* While we aren't planning a huge number of features in JDK 9, we are 
delivering some interesting improvements. Jigsaw is the big release driver and 
most of our effort on JavaFX is to align with that. For those of you who 
weren't at JavaOne, here is a list of things that are currently planned for JDK 
9:

- A modularized JavaFX (into 6 core modules + deploy, swing interop, swt
interop)

- JEP 253 -- Control Skins & additional CSS APIs (proper support for 
third-party controls)

- High DPI enhancements (full support on Windows; add support for Linux)

- Public API for commonly used methods from internal packages:
* Nested Event Loop
* Pulse Listener
* Platform Startup
* Text API (HitTest, etc)
* Static utility functions (under investigation)

- New versions of WebKit and GStreamer

And here is an incomplete list of things we are thinking about for after JDK 9, 
possibly in an update release. In fact, the recently proposed JDK
9 slip [1] makes it possible to consider pulling a few of them into JDK 9, so 
let us know which ones you consider most important:

- Provide a JavaFX equivalent for JEP 272 / AWT ‘Desktop’ API

- Make UI Control Behaviors public

- UI Control Actions API

- Public Focus Traversal API

- JavaFX support for multi-resolution images

- Draggable tabs

- Image IO


-- Kevin

[1]
http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/jdk9-dev/2015-December/003149.html

Re: Future of JavaFX

[dalibor topic]

On 03.12.2015 01:35, Scott Palmer wrote:

The issue I have with that is the timeframe in terms of getting those fixes in 
a JRE that I can ship with.


Assuming that you are talking about the Oracle JRE specifically, please 
see 
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/documentation/8u-relnotes-2225394.html 
for information about Bundled Patch Release (BPR) builds of JDK 8.


cheers,
dalibor topic
--
 Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
Phone: +494089091214  | Mobile: +491737185961


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Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher

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practices and products that help protect the environment

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Robert Krüger]

Thanks Chien and Kevin. I will recheck my issues with JDK 9 early access
and report back, probably here because I cannot comment in JBS.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 8:44 PM, Chien Yang  wrote:

> On 12/2/15, 4:46 AM, Robert Krüger wrote:
>
>> How much of a priority are quality issues,
>> especially on the Mac (which clearly is a second-class citizen as far as
>> JavaFX is concerned)? Are things like flashing when opening Stages, bad
>> rendering performance, broken media APIs etc. an issue?
>>
> We have been busy fixing bugs to ensure a high quality release for 9 on
> all supported platforms. Many of our developers have a Mac and it is tested
> weekly. If you found a bug that is still reproducible on the JDK 9 early
> access please file it [1]. We will definitely investigate it.
>
> [1] https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/OpenJFX/Submitting+a+Bug+Report
>
> - Chien
>



-- 
Robert Krüger
Managing Partner
Lesspain GmbH & Co. KG

www.lesspain-software.com

RE: Future of JavaFX

[Markus KARG]

Agreed.

-Original Message-
From: Phil Race [mailto:philip.r...@oracle.com] 
Sent: Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2015 19:39
To: Markus KARG; openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX

As Kevin already said, you won't get anywhere by discussing that on
*this* list.
It is out of the control of JavaFX. It is an OpenJDK-wide policy regarding the 
bug tracker.
You would need to take it to openjdk-discuss since it is common across all 
OpenJDK projects.
And there is some work in progress the submission easier and to provide means 
to add updates. I think that may have been shared in a previous thread on this 
or some other list.

-phil.

On 12/3/2015 10:31 AM, Markus KARG wrote:
> +1
>
> It simply must be possibly for *everyone* to open tickets, comment on 
> tickets, vote for tickets, without signing a CLA. We simply could have bylaws 
> that say that you agree to the CLA simply by using the tracker. In Germany 
> for example, this is possible by posting the licence agreement on the same 
> web site and the words "By using this service you agree to this terms.".
>
> The must be people in charge reviewing small contributions and directly tell 
> in the comments field what exactly is needed to be accepted as a contribution.
>
> Everything else will hold people back from contributing small contributions 
> or even report bugs.
>
> -Markus
>
> -Original Message-
> From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On 
> Behalf Of Mark Fortner
> Sent: Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2015 00:12
> To: Florian Brunner
> Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
>
> I think the first hurdle is to get people to sign the CLA. Having to 
> print a copy, sign it, and find a fax machine or scanner to resend it 
> seems kind of archaic in this day and age.  That said, e-signing a PDF 
> shouldn't be too difficult, but it would be better if it were simply a 
> form that you attached your public key to. This would serve 2 
> purposes: (1) you have a proxy for a signature, (2) the key could be used to 
> access the repo.
>
> That said, even that might be too much for people who just have a 
> quick bug fix that they'd like to see reviewed and merged.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 4:43 PM, Florian Brunner <fbrunnerl...@gmx.ch> wrote:
>
>> Some time ago there actaully was a OpenJFX mirror repository on BitBucket.
>>
>> I'm not totally sure anymore why this was stopped. I think it needs 
>> someone who keeps the repositories in sync and there were some 
>> concerns that it's harder to control who wrote a patch. But maybe the 
>> idea with CLA signers only members would solve this issue?
>>
>> So I see 3 pain points being raised.
>>
>> 1. Signing the CLA.
>>  - Personally, I don't see any way around this. If there is 
>> no CLA then you end up with a project _nobody_ is in control of.
>>  - Basically it envolves the following steps:
>>   -- Download it from the website
>>   -- print it
>>   -- sign it
>>   -- send it off
>>   -- you only have to do this once
>>   -- you don't have to wait for Oracle to receive it to start 
>> working on the issue you like to solve
>>
>> Can this be presented in a way it doesn't scare people away as 
>> according to some statements it seems to do now?
>>
>> 2. State-of-the-art code collaboration platform.
>>  -- This would have to be something like GitHub or BitBucket
>>  -- Only CLA signers can be members of the project
>>  -- Someone has to be in charge to synchronize the 
>> repositories (probably one way only)
>>  -- personally I like to work with feature branches in Git 
>> but I think you can get something similar with Mercurial bookmarks. 
>> So
>>  --- pick an issue you would like to work on
>>  --- consider to announce it on this mailing list
>>  --- create a feature branch
>>  --- start pushing your changes to the feature branch
>>  --- other developers of the projects (all CLA signers) might 
>> chime in as they like
>> --- once you think you're finished create a patch from the 
>> feature branch and add it to the issue or (if you don't have enough 
>> rights) send it to the mailing list
>> --- take the feedback from the review, do the fixes an create 
>> another patch etc.
>>
>> So the main benefit would be that several developers could work on 
>> the same issue until it gets to a high enough qualiy state to be 
>> merged into the main r

RE: Future of JavaFX

[Markus KARG]

+1

It simply must be possibly for *everyone* to open tickets, comment on tickets, 
vote for tickets, without signing a CLA. We simply could have bylaws that say 
that you agree to the CLA simply by using the tracker. In Germany for example, 
this is possible by posting the licence agreement on the same web site and the 
words "By using this service you agree to this terms.".

The must be people in charge reviewing small contributions and directly tell in 
the comments field what exactly is needed to be accepted as a contribution.

Everything else will hold people back from contributing small contributions or 
even report bugs.

-Markus

-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of 
Mark Fortner
Sent: Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2015 00:12
To: Florian Brunner
Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX

I think the first hurdle is to get people to sign the CLA. Having to print
a copy, sign it, and find a fax machine or scanner to resend it seems kind
of archaic in this day and age.  That said, e-signing a PDF shouldn't be
too difficult, but it would be better if it were simply a form that you
attached your public key to. This would serve 2 purposes: (1) you have a
proxy for a signature, (2) the key could be used to access the repo.

That said, even that might be too much for people who just have a quick bug
fix that they'd like to see reviewed and merged.

Cheers,

Mark


On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 4:43 PM, Florian Brunner <fbrunnerl...@gmx.ch> wrote:

> Some time ago there actaully was a OpenJFX mirror repository on BitBucket.
>
> I'm not totally sure anymore why this was stopped. I think it needs someone
> who keeps the repositories in sync and there were some concerns that it's
> harder to control who wrote a patch. But maybe the idea with CLA signers
> only
> members would solve this issue?
>
> So I see 3 pain points being raised.
>
> 1. Signing the CLA.
> - Personally, I don't see any way around this. If there is no CLA
> then you
> end up with a project _nobody_ is in control of.
> - Basically it envolves the following steps:
>  -- Download it from the website
>  -- print it
>  -- sign it
>  -- send it off
>  -- you only have to do this once
>  -- you don't have to wait for Oracle to receive it to start
> working
> on the issue you like to solve
>
>Can this be presented in a way it doesn't scare people away as
> according to
> some statements it seems to do now?
>
> 2. State-of-the-art code collaboration platform.
> -- This would have to be something like GitHub or BitBucket
> -- Only CLA signers can be members of the project
> -- Someone has to be in charge to synchronize the repositories
> (probably one way only)
> -- personally I like to work with feature branches in Git but I
> think
> you can get something similar with Mercurial bookmarks. So
> --- pick an issue you would like to work on
> --- consider to announce it on this mailing list
> --- create a feature branch
> --- start pushing your changes to the feature branch
> --- other developers of the projects (all CLA signers) might chime
> in
> as they like
>--- once you think you're finished create a patch from the feature
> branch and add it to the issue or (if you don't have enough rights) send
> it to
> the mailing list
>--- take the feedback from the review, do the fixes an create
> another
> patch etc.
>
> So the main benefit would be that several developers could work on the same
> issue until it gets to a high enough qualiy state to be merged into the
> main
> repository and not requiring one developer to do it all on his/ her own.
>
>
> 3. Filing and commenting on issues
>   - if you don't have enough rights, file it on bugs.java.com
>   - ask on this mailing list (or ask someone you know on this mailing list
> to
> do it for you) about the corresponding issue on bugs.openjdk.java.net
>  - someone from Oracle should give anyone who filed an issue that made it
> to
> bugs.openjdk.java.net the enough rights so he/ she can join on the
> discussion
> in the issue
>
> Any better way?
>
>
> -Florian
>
> Am Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015, 17.16:46 schrieb Tomas Mikula:
> > The proposed strategy also applies to bitbucket, which does have
> mercurial
> > support ;)
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu>
> wrote:
> > > Too bad that Github cannot fork mercurial repos. It would be
> interesting
> > > to see the real number of pull requests such a fork would gain. Maybe

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Phil Race]

As Kevin already said, you won't get anywhere by discussing that on 
*this* list.
It is out of the control of JavaFX. It is an OpenJDK-wide policy 
regarding the bug tracker.
You would need to take it to openjdk-discuss since it is common across 
all OpenJDK projects.
And there is some work in progress the submission easier and to provide 
means to
add updates. I think that may have been shared in a previous thread on 
this or some other list.


-phil.

On 12/3/2015 10:31 AM, Markus KARG wrote:

+1

It simply must be possibly for *everyone* to open tickets, comment on tickets, vote for 
tickets, without signing a CLA. We simply could have bylaws that say that you agree to 
the CLA simply by using the tracker. In Germany for example, this is possible by posting 
the licence agreement on the same web site and the words "By using this service you 
agree to this terms.".

The must be people in charge reviewing small contributions and directly tell in 
the comments field what exactly is needed to be accepted as a contribution.

Everything else will hold people back from contributing small contributions or 
even report bugs.

-Markus

-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of 
Mark Fortner
Sent: Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2015 00:12
To: Florian Brunner
Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX

I think the first hurdle is to get people to sign the CLA. Having to print
a copy, sign it, and find a fax machine or scanner to resend it seems kind
of archaic in this day and age.  That said, e-signing a PDF shouldn't be
too difficult, but it would be better if it were simply a form that you
attached your public key to. This would serve 2 purposes: (1) you have a
proxy for a signature, (2) the key could be used to access the repo.

That said, even that might be too much for people who just have a quick bug
fix that they'd like to see reviewed and merged.

Cheers,

Mark


On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 4:43 PM, Florian Brunner <fbrunnerl...@gmx.ch> wrote:


Some time ago there actaully was a OpenJFX mirror repository on BitBucket.

I'm not totally sure anymore why this was stopped. I think it needs someone
who keeps the repositories in sync and there were some concerns that it's
harder to control who wrote a patch. But maybe the idea with CLA signers
only
members would solve this issue?

So I see 3 pain points being raised.

1. Signing the CLA.
 - Personally, I don't see any way around this. If there is no CLA
then you
end up with a project _nobody_ is in control of.
 - Basically it envolves the following steps:
  -- Download it from the website
  -- print it
  -- sign it
  -- send it off
  -- you only have to do this once
  -- you don't have to wait for Oracle to receive it to start
working
on the issue you like to solve

Can this be presented in a way it doesn't scare people away as
according to
some statements it seems to do now?

2. State-of-the-art code collaboration platform.
 -- This would have to be something like GitHub or BitBucket
 -- Only CLA signers can be members of the project
 -- Someone has to be in charge to synchronize the repositories
(probably one way only)
 -- personally I like to work with feature branches in Git but I
think
you can get something similar with Mercurial bookmarks. So
 --- pick an issue you would like to work on
 --- consider to announce it on this mailing list
 --- create a feature branch
 --- start pushing your changes to the feature branch
 --- other developers of the projects (all CLA signers) might chime
in
as they like
--- once you think you're finished create a patch from the feature
branch and add it to the issue or (if you don't have enough rights) send
it to
the mailing list
--- take the feedback from the review, do the fixes an create
another
patch etc.

So the main benefit would be that several developers could work on the same
issue until it gets to a high enough qualiy state to be merged into the
main
repository and not requiring one developer to do it all on his/ her own.


3. Filing and commenting on issues
   - if you don't have enough rights, file it on bugs.java.com
   - ask on this mailing list (or ask someone you know on this mailing list
to
do it for you) about the corresponding issue on bugs.openjdk.java.net
  - someone from Oracle should give anyone who filed an issue that made it
to
bugs.openjdk.java.net the enough rights so he/ she can join on the
discussion
in the issue

Any better way?


-Florian

Am Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015, 17.16:46 schrieb Tomas Mikula:

The proposed strategy also applies to bitbucket, which does have

mercurial

support ;)

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu>

wrote:

Too bad that Github cannot fork mercurial repos. It would be

interesting

to see t

RE: Future of JavaFX

[Markus KARG]

I understand all you said, but at least, let me answer to your accusations,
before we stop this thread and go back to technical discussions:

In fact you blaim the wrong person. Indeed am speaking for TeamFX (a group
of JavaFX experts) and JUG leaders, wanting to actually help Oracle; but to
do that, we need the ability to vote and comment on tickets, so we can work
together with Oracle. We also want to add small contributions made by us
(partly done and visible in JIRA already, but cannot get finished, due to
missing JIRA accounts), but we need to have a JIRA ticket for each of it as
the main communication system for the team. JIRA is essential for a team
these days. Unfortunately, OpenJDK does not provide JIRA access to *Some* of
us, so simply we cannot *efficiently* work together with Oracle as we have
to send back-and-forth the building bricks and then wait for someone from
Oracle to find the time to review it.

That's the sole point. Not asking Oracle to do the work. Exactly the
opposite! :-)

Reagrds
-Markus

-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of
dalibor topic
Sent: Donnerstag, 3. Dezember 2015 14:35
To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX

On 02.12.2015 18:45, Markus KARG wrote:
> I wouldn't bother you if I wouldn't have met those people and listened to
> their ideas, BTW.

One type of ideas one can regularly see in open source communities is 
'someone else should do X', where X can range from 'change their 
workflow to suit mine', over 'add a feature or fix a bug affecting my 
customer', to 'pay other people to do what I tell them to do', for example.

While the idea of being entitled to benefiting from other people's work 
is individually attractive, in open source communities allowing too much 
of this type of free riding attitude can cause a 'tragedy of the 
commons'. [1]

When it comes to OpenJDK, the way it is set up to work (since its 
inception) to avoid that type of problems is to mostly cater to the 
needs of OpenJDK developers, rather then to the needs of users of 
downstream products.

The OpenJDK processes allow and enable contributors with sufficient 
skills, humbleness and experience to become OpenJDK developers 
themselves, getting write access to corresponding parts of OpenJDK 
infrastructure.

But contrary to what some people may think, one should not attempt to 
recruit the largest possible number of contributors just for the sake of 
attracting contributors. The best kind of open source contributors come 
with a purpose, rather than armed with ideas they want others to work on.

On the other hand, if someone is just looking for others to work on 
issues they are interested in, that's fine, too. They can, for example, 
find Oracle's Java SE Support at [0], or in other ways attempt to 
arrange for others to pursue those ideas for them, for example by filing 
an issue or RFE on bugs.java.com, or hiring someone to implement/fix it 
for them.

Whatever option one picks, please refrain from using this technical 
mailing list for non-technical discussions. [2] As a reminder, technical 
discussions are about code.

cheers,
dalibor topic

[0] 
http://www.oracle.com/us/technologies/java/standard-edition/support/overview
/index.html
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xC3J2pdVXX0
[2] 
http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/openjfx-dev/2015-December/018320.html

-- 
<http://www.oracle.com> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
Phone: +494089091214 <tel:+494089091214> | Mobile: +491737185961
<tel:+491737185961>

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
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Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher

<http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing
practices and products that help protect the environment

RE: Future of JavaFX

[Markus KARG]

I see it differently. Often the initial contribution does not fulfil the
quality, because the original author alone has not the time to fix all the
law stuff, but just has a great idea and hacks it down. Then others chime in
an fix it. I often saw (an helped with) such features in other open source
projects like PostgreSQL, JOnAS, FOP, DITA-OT... and it was always a great
experience to work *together* to get the thing running and finally done in
the wanted quality.

This is not possible in the JavaFX project, as the original author has no
chance to file to core idea and let others finish it, since you expect the
original author not only having the great idea and hack together the first
draw, but first of all, sign papers, read lots of rules and process
definitions, and so on, before you even take a look at his idea (this is
what happened to me several times). Hence, you expect the original author to
have plenty of time to do all that on his own, all alone. That does not
match on most community driven open source authors, it only matches on
commercial open source vendors.

So actually you only want to get contributions from Oracle, IBM, Gluan and
possibly a hand full of fully paid others, but not from the user space.
That's a pity, because that user space has a lot of great ideas. So if you
only want full-time contributors, please say it loud and clear on the "how
to contribute" page, and all that "noise" from the community will stop at
once -- including USING JavaFX as a side effect.

I wouldn't bother you if I wouldn't have met those people and listened to
their ideas, BTW.

-Markus

-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of
dalibor topic
Sent: Mittwoch, 2. Dezember 2015 10:46
To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX

On 01.12.2015 22:58, Markus KARG wrote:
> I actually talk about those people that *did not* invest the time to
> contribute

Making high quality contributions to open source projects takes a 
considerable amount of humbleness, time and effort. People who aren't 
able or willing to invest the necessary time and effort into making high 
quality contributions are not likely to produce acceptable results - in 
any open source community.

To quote Jono Bacon:

"Low-quality contributors don't bring much other than noise: they are a 
net drain on resources because other good contributors have to take time 
away to support them." [1]

cheers,
dalibor topic

[1] http://opensource.com/life/15/3/how-to-fire-community-members
-- 
<http://www.oracle.com> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
Phone: +494089091214 <tel:+494089091214> | Mobile: +491737185961
<tel:+491737185961>

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher

<http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing
practices and products that help protect the environment

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Kevin Rushforth]

To add to this, if there is an existing open bug that you consider 
important, please let us know.


-- Kevin


Chien Yang wrote:

On 12/2/15, 4:46 AM, Robert Krüger wrote:

How much of a priority are quality issues,
especially on the Mac (which clearly is a second-class citizen as far as
JavaFX is concerned)? Are things like flashing when opening Stages, bad
rendering performance, broken media APIs etc. an issue?
We have been busy fixing bugs to ensure a high quality release for 9 
on all supported platforms. Many of our developers have a Mac and it 
is tested weekly. If you found a bug that is still reproducible on the 
JDK 9 early access please file it [1]. We will definitely investigate it.


[1] https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/OpenJFX/Submitting+a+Bug+Report

- Chien

Re: Future of JavaFX

[dalibor topic]

On 02.12.2015 01:29, Kevin Rushforth wrote:

Please be aware that as part of the OpenJDK community, we are bound by
the processes of the OpenJDK, including the need for a signed OCA in
order to contribute, and before you can get a JBS account. If you are
dissatisfied with those processes and policies, then I invite you to
discuss it on the disc...@openjdk.java.net alias, and not here.


Suggestions for general improvements in that area are welcome on the 
adoption-discuss [0] mailing list. Please do make sure to check the list 
archives before posting to see if an idea hasn't been discussed already.


cheers,
dalibor topic

[0] http://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo/adoption-discuss
--
 Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
Phone: +494089091214  | Mobile: +491737185961


ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher

 Oracle is committed to developing
practices and products that help protect the environment

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Ilya Buziuk]

Hello, guys
If the question about bugs that are considered important was risen I would
say that for me (as a JBoss Tools  developer who
uses JavaFx for cordova ripple based mobile emulator) the regression
JDK-8090205   is utterly
important. Basically, it makes Debugger API unusable since 8u20

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 11:51 PM, Kevin Rushforth  wrote:

> To add to this, if there is an existing open bug that you consider
> important, please let us know.
>
> -- Kevin
>
>
>
> Chien Yang wrote:
>
>> On 12/2/15, 4:46 AM, Robert Krüger wrote:
>>
>>> How much of a priority are quality issues,
>>> especially on the Mac (which clearly is a second-class citizen as far as
>>> JavaFX is concerned)? Are things like flashing when opening Stages, bad
>>> rendering performance, broken media APIs etc. an issue?
>>>
>> We have been busy fixing bugs to ensure a high quality release for 9 on
>> all supported platforms. Many of our developers have a Mac and it is tested
>> weekly. If you found a bug that is still reproducible on the JDK 9 early
>> access please file it [1]. We will definitely investigate it.
>>
>> [1] https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/OpenJFX/Submitting+a+Bug+Report
>>
>> - Chien
>>
>


-- 
Best Regards,
Ilya Buziuk

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Scott Palmer]

 --- once you think you're finished create a patch from the feature
>> branch and add it to the issue or (if you don't have enough rights) send
>> it to
>> the mailing list
>>   --- take the feedback from the review, do the fixes an create
>> another
>> patch etc.
>> 
>> So the main benefit would be that several developers could work on the same
>> issue until it gets to a high enough qualiy state to be merged into the
>> main
>> repository and not requiring one developer to do it all on his/ her own.
>> 
>> 
>> 3. Filing and commenting on issues
>>  - if you don't have enough rights, file it on bugs.java.com
>>  - ask on this mailing list (or ask someone you know on this mailing list
>> to
>> do it for you) about the corresponding issue on bugs.openjdk.java.net
>> - someone from Oracle should give anyone who filed an issue that made it
>> to
>> bugs.openjdk.java.net the enough rights so he/ she can join on the
>> discussion
>> in the issue
>> 
>> Any better way?
>> 
>> 
>> -Florian
>> 
>> Am Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015, 17.16:46 schrieb Tomas Mikula:
>>> The proposed strategy also applies to bitbucket, which does have
>> mercurial
>>> support ;)
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu>
>> wrote:
>>>> Too bad that Github cannot fork mercurial repos. It would be
>> interesting
>>>> to see the real number of pull requests such a fork would gain. Maybe
>>>> Dalibor is right and we would end up with zero? ;-)
>>>> 
>>>> -Markus
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> From: Tomas Mikula [mailto:tomas.mik...@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 23:05
>>>> To: Markus KARG
>>>> Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
>>>> Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The review process for external contributions does not even have to be
>>>> different from the internal review process. There can be a virtual
>>>> organization on GitHub called "Oracle CLA signatories". After a pull
>>>> request has been reviewed, all that the OpenJFX committer has to do
>> before
>>>> merging is to check whether the contributor is a member of this
>>>> organization.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Tomas
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> We should ask ourselfs whether we want more contributions or not. We
>> will
>>>> not get them until we change something. Most contributors in the Open
>>>> Source just want to drop a bug report or a feature or two, and
>> multiplied
>>>> by the number of those guys, this is a lot of stuff. Only few
>> contributors
>>>> are willing to stay for long time, and only for those it makes sense to
>>>> have the complex rules. For example, I do not see why we cannot have a
>>>> dedicated full time "Community Officer" who simply collects the
>>>> contributions, reviews it, applies the needed checks and rules and all
>>>> that
>>>> instead of asking everybody to follow a complex process? That would
>> ensure
>>>> the quality, but not for the cost of losing contributors.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: Hervé Girod [mailto:herve.gi...@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 20:19
>>>> To: Markus KARG
>>>> Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
>>>> Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
>>>> 
>>>> Things are not different for Apache projects. Google does not accept
>> any
>>>> external contributions. The Linux kernel development is very tightly
>>>> controlled. We should stop considering that widespread open source
>>>> policies
>>>> are only a problem with JavaFX. These policies are in place for a
>> reason.
>>>> 
>>>> Hervé
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 20:13, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu>
>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I wonder why I was able to jointly assign my copyright with a lot of
>>>> 
>>>> other
>>>> 
>>>>> open sour

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Mark Fortner]

I think the first hurdle is to get people to sign the CLA. Having to print
a copy, sign it, and find a fax machine or scanner to resend it seems kind
of archaic in this day and age.  That said, e-signing a PDF shouldn't be
too difficult, but it would be better if it were simply a form that you
attached your public key to. This would serve 2 purposes: (1) you have a
proxy for a signature, (2) the key could be used to access the repo.

That said, even that might be too much for people who just have a quick bug
fix that they'd like to see reviewed and merged.

Cheers,

Mark


On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 4:43 PM, Florian Brunner <fbrunnerl...@gmx.ch> wrote:

> Some time ago there actaully was a OpenJFX mirror repository on BitBucket.
>
> I'm not totally sure anymore why this was stopped. I think it needs someone
> who keeps the repositories in sync and there were some concerns that it's
> harder to control who wrote a patch. But maybe the idea with CLA signers
> only
> members would solve this issue?
>
> So I see 3 pain points being raised.
>
> 1. Signing the CLA.
> - Personally, I don't see any way around this. If there is no CLA
> then you
> end up with a project _nobody_ is in control of.
> - Basically it envolves the following steps:
>  -- Download it from the website
>  -- print it
>  -- sign it
>  -- send it off
>  -- you only have to do this once
>  -- you don't have to wait for Oracle to receive it to start
> working
> on the issue you like to solve
>
>Can this be presented in a way it doesn't scare people away as
> according to
> some statements it seems to do now?
>
> 2. State-of-the-art code collaboration platform.
> -- This would have to be something like GitHub or BitBucket
> -- Only CLA signers can be members of the project
> -- Someone has to be in charge to synchronize the repositories
> (probably one way only)
> -- personally I like to work with feature branches in Git but I
> think
> you can get something similar with Mercurial bookmarks. So
> --- pick an issue you would like to work on
> --- consider to announce it on this mailing list
> --- create a feature branch
> --- start pushing your changes to the feature branch
> --- other developers of the projects (all CLA signers) might chime
> in
> as they like
>--- once you think you're finished create a patch from the feature
> branch and add it to the issue or (if you don't have enough rights) send
> it to
> the mailing list
>--- take the feedback from the review, do the fixes an create
> another
> patch etc.
>
> So the main benefit would be that several developers could work on the same
> issue until it gets to a high enough qualiy state to be merged into the
> main
> repository and not requiring one developer to do it all on his/ her own.
>
>
> 3. Filing and commenting on issues
>   - if you don't have enough rights, file it on bugs.java.com
>   - ask on this mailing list (or ask someone you know on this mailing list
> to
> do it for you) about the corresponding issue on bugs.openjdk.java.net
>  - someone from Oracle should give anyone who filed an issue that made it
> to
> bugs.openjdk.java.net the enough rights so he/ she can join on the
> discussion
> in the issue
>
> Any better way?
>
>
> -Florian
>
> Am Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015, 17.16:46 schrieb Tomas Mikula:
> > The proposed strategy also applies to bitbucket, which does have
> mercurial
> > support ;)
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu>
> wrote:
> > > Too bad that Github cannot fork mercurial repos. It would be
> interesting
> > > to see the real number of pull requests such a fork would gain. Maybe
> > > Dalibor is right and we would end up with zero? ;-)
> > >
> > > -Markus
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: Tomas Mikula [mailto:tomas.mik...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 23:05
> > > To: Markus KARG
> > > Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> > > Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > The review process for external contributions does not even have to be
> > > different from the internal review process. There can be a virtual
> > > organization on GitHub called "Oracle CLA signatories". After a pull
> > > request has been reviewed, all that the OpenJFX committer has to do
> before
> > > merging is to check whether the contributor is a member of this
> > > organization.
> > >
> > &

Re: Future of JavaFX

[dalibor topic]

On 02.12.2015 10:44, Ryan Jaeb wrote:

Which is it - discuss or adoption-discuss?


adoption-discuss is for general discussion about bundling and aiding 
OpenJDK collaboration, discuss is for general discussion about the 
OpenJDK Community.


cheers,
dalibor topic
--
 Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
Phone: +494089091214  | Mobile: +491737185961


ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
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Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher

 Oracle is committed to developing
practices and products that help protect the environment

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Ryan Jaeb]

Which is it - discuss or adoption-discuss?

I really hope someone jumps over and restarts the JBS policy conversation.
I tried when the JIRA change was initially announced and my
misunderstanding of some key facts undermined the message I was trying to
get across.  I also think it may have devalued the concerns that others
were trying to raise, so it would be great to see everyone get another
opportunity to participate in a discussion that may get taken more
seriously.

Learning from the mistakes I made last time, I think it would be useful if
someone that's been using bugs.java.com could start the discussion with an
overview of the bugs.java.com submission process.  I would volunteer, but I
quit submitting bugs when the submission process changed, so I wouldn't be
able to offer an accurate explanation of the current process.

Ryan Jaeb

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 3:11 AM, dalibor topic 
wrote:

>
>
> On 02.12.2015 01:29, Kevin Rushforth wrote:
>
>> Please be aware that as part of the OpenJDK community, we are bound by
>> the processes of the OpenJDK, including the need for a signed OCA in
>> order to contribute, and before you can get a JBS account. If you are
>> dissatisfied with those processes and policies, then I invite you to
>> discuss it on the disc...@openjdk.java.net alias, and not here.
>>
>
> Suggestions for general improvements in that area are welcome on the
> adoption-discuss [0] mailing list. Please do make sure to check the list
> archives before posting to see if an idea hasn't been discussed already.
>
> cheers,
> dalibor topic
>
> [0] http://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo/adoption-discuss
> --
>  Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
> Phone: +494089091214  | Mobile: +491737185961
> 
>
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg
>
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
>
> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
> Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher
>
>  Oracle is committed to developing
> practices and products that help protect the environment
>

Re: Future of JavaFX

[dalibor topic]

On 01.12.2015 22:58, Markus KARG wrote:

I actually talk about those people that *did not* invest the time to
contribute


Making high quality contributions to open source projects takes a 
considerable amount of humbleness, time and effort. People who aren't 
able or willing to invest the necessary time and effort into making high 
quality contributions are not likely to produce acceptable results - in 
any open source community.


To quote Jono Bacon:

"Low-quality contributors don't bring much other than noise: they are a 
net drain on resources because other good contributors have to take time 
away to support them." [1]


cheers,
dalibor topic

[1] http://opensource.com/life/15/3/how-to-fire-community-members
--
 Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
Phone: +494089091214  | Mobile: +491737185961


ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher

 Oracle is committed to developing
practices and products that help protect the environment

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Robert Krüger]

Please, you're really oversimplifying things, I'm not sure if
intentionally. It's not just coding. In my company I pay people
serious money who do testing and file reproducible test cases with a
qualified analysis of what they observed and what may be the problem and
that's what I have done in the past for JavaFX using my Jira account as
also have a number of other qualified people who were affronted by the
policy changes, which probably resulted in many of them stopping this
because they could no longer follow their Jira tickets including taking
part in discussions there or answering questions by the engineers. If you
don't count these things as meaningful/valuable contributions that make a
difference, I don't really know on what basis to argue anymore. Then I have
to assume, you just don't want to really deal with criticism. Of course
some unqualified ranting in a Jira issue hurts (i.e. consumes resources)
more than it helps but putting the many qualified people (many of them on
this list) all in that category is neither correct, nor a smart move in
anyone's interest.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 10:45 AM, dalibor topic 
wrote:

> On 01.12.2015 22:58, Markus KARG wrote:
>
>> I actually talk about those people that *did not* invest the time to
>> contribute
>>
>
> Making high quality contributions to open source projects takes a
> considerable amount of humbleness, time and effort. People who aren't able
> or willing to invest the necessary time and effort into making high quality
> contributions are not likely to produce acceptable results - in any open
> source community.
>
> To quote Jono Bacon:
>
> "Low-quality contributors don't bring much other than noise: they are a
> net drain on resources because other good contributors have to take time
> away to support them." [1]
>
> cheers,
> dalibor topic
>
> [1] http://opensource.com/life/15/3/how-to-fire-community-members
>
> --
>  Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
> Phone: +494089091214  | Mobile: +491737185961
> 
>
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg
>
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
>
> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
> Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher
>
>  Oracle is committed to developing
> practices and products that help protect the environment
>



-- 
Robert Krüger
Managing Partner
Lesspain GmbH & Co. KG

www.lesspain-software.com

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Robert Krüger]

Kevin,

thanks for sharing those plans. How much of a priority are quality issues,
especially on the Mac (which clearly is a second-class citizen as far as
JavaFX is concerned)? Are things like flashing when opening Stages, bad
rendering performance, broken media APIs etc. an issue? As far as my
company is concerned, the biggest problem (which resulted in us reluctantly
dropping the idea of a migration of our product to JFX for the time being
after lengthy evaluation) is not so much lack of features but primarily
quality in terms of robustness and user experience and the number of
problems we have run into in almost every area that we did tests in was
what led us to that decision (especially with Mac being our most important
platform).

Is there awareness that there are serious problems of the described kind
that block the adoption of JFX in companies who desperately want to switch?
It's always difficult to judge that by the priorities in Jira but it
appeared to me that in many cases the perception on the Oracle side was
very different, if things like the white flashing problem when opening
windows or the tree view scrolling incorrectly or looping in a media api
not working seemed to be viewed rather like a minor glitch.

People have different requirements and thus different views on the topic of
this thread but I found the analysis and observations in Shay's posting not
very far from that of our own engineering team (no affiliation with him or
his company btw.) for the reasons described above.

Best regards,

Robert


On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 1:29 AM, Kevin Rushforth 
wrote:

> Just to chime in on a couple of points that have been raised in this
> discussion...
>
> * We are interested in working with the OpenJFX community to improve
> JavaFX. In particular: if you find a bug, file it (via bugs.java.com if
> you don't have a JBS account); if you want to contribute a patch to fix the
> bug, we'd love to review it; if you have an idea for an improvement, file
> it as an RFE (enhancement) and start up a thread on the mailing list.
> Larger features need a JEP, but smaller improvements do not.
>
> Please be aware that as part of the OpenJDK community, we are bound by the
> processes of the OpenJDK, including the need for a signed OCA in order to
> contribute, and before you can get a JBS account. If you are dissatisfied
> with those processes and policies, then I invite you to discuss it on the
> disc...@openjdk.java.net alias, and not here.
>
>
> * While we aren't planning a huge number of features in JDK 9, we are
> delivering some interesting improvements. Jigsaw is the big release driver
> and most of our effort on JavaFX is to align with that. For those of you
> who weren't at JavaOne, here is a list of things that are currently planned
> for JDK 9:
>
> - A modularized JavaFX (into 6 core modules + deploy, swing interop, swt
> interop)
>
> - JEP 253 -- Control Skins & additional CSS APIs (proper support for
> third-party controls)
>
> - High DPI enhancements (full support on Windows; add support for Linux)
>
> - Public API for commonly used methods from internal packages:
>* Nested Event Loop
>* Pulse Listener
>* Platform Startup
>* Text API (HitTest, etc)
>* Static utility functions (under investigation)
>
> - New versions of WebKit and GStreamer
>
> And here is an incomplete list of things we are thinking about for after
> JDK 9, possibly in an update release. In fact, the recently proposed JDK 9
> slip [1] makes it possible to consider pulling a few of them into JDK 9, so
> let us know which ones you consider most important:
>
> - Provide a JavaFX equivalent for JEP 272 / AWT ‘Desktop’ API
>
> - Make UI Control Behaviors public
>
> - UI Control Actions API
>
> - Public Focus Traversal API
>
> - JavaFX support for multi-resolution images
>
> - Draggable tabs
>
> - Image IO
>
>
> -- Kevin
>
> [1]
> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/jdk9-dev/2015-December/003149.html
>
>


-- 
Robert Krüger
Managing Partner
Lesspain GmbH & Co. KG

www.lesspain-software.com

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Tobias Bley]

I absolutely agree. While we are committing to many Github projects it’s too 
hard to do that for JavaFX via bugs.sun.com…. Github is a modern way of 
developing together. The „bugs.sun.com“ way is like using a candle instead of 
electric light…

Best Regards,
Tobi


> Am 02.12.2015 um 13:32 schrieb Robert Krüger :
> 
> Please, you're really oversimplifying things, I'm not sure if
> intentionally. It's not just coding. In my company I pay people
> serious money who do testing and file reproducible test cases with a
> qualified analysis of what they observed and what may be the problem and
> that's what I have done in the past for JavaFX using my Jira account as
> also have a number of other qualified people who were affronted by the
> policy changes, which probably resulted in many of them stopping this
> because they could no longer follow their Jira tickets including taking
> part in discussions there or answering questions by the engineers. If you
> don't count these things as meaningful/valuable contributions that make a
> difference, I don't really know on what basis to argue anymore. Then I have
> to assume, you just don't want to really deal with criticism. Of course
> some unqualified ranting in a Jira issue hurts (i.e. consumes resources)
> more than it helps but putting the many qualified people (many of them on
> this list) all in that category is neither correct, nor a smart move in
> anyone's interest.
> 
> On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 10:45 AM, dalibor topic 
> wrote:
> 
>> On 01.12.2015 22:58, Markus KARG wrote:
>> 
>>> I actually talk about those people that *did not* invest the time to
>>> contribute
>>> 
>> 
>> Making high quality contributions to open source projects takes a
>> considerable amount of humbleness, time and effort. People who aren't able
>> or willing to invest the necessary time and effort into making high quality
>> contributions are not likely to produce acceptable results - in any open
>> source community.
>> 
>> To quote Jono Bacon:
>> 
>> "Low-quality contributors don't bring much other than noise: they are a
>> net drain on resources because other good contributors have to take time
>> away to support them." [1]
>> 
>> cheers,
>> dalibor topic
>> 
>> [1] http://opensource.com/life/15/3/how-to-fire-community-members
>> 
>> --
>>  Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
>> Phone: +494089091214  | Mobile: +491737185961
>> 
>> 
>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg
>> 
>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
>> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
>> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
>> 
>> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
>> Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
>> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
>> Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher
>> 
>>  Oracle is committed to developing
>> practices and products that help protect the environment
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Robert Krüger
> Managing Partner
> Lesspain GmbH & Co. KG
> 
> www.lesspain-software.com

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Kevin Rushforth]

I'll add a comment to the bug report.

-- Kevin


Ilya Buziuk wrote:

Hello, guys
If the question about bugs that are considered important was risen I 
would say that for me (as a JBoss Tools  
developer who uses JavaFx for cordova ripple based mobile emulator) 
the regression JDK-8090205 
  is utterly 
important. Basically, it makes Debugger API unusable since 8u20


On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 11:51 PM, Kevin Rushforth 
> wrote:


To add to this, if there is an existing open bug that you consider
important, please let us know.

-- Kevin



Chien Yang wrote:

On 12/2/15, 4:46 AM, Robert Krüger wrote:

How much of a priority are quality issues,
especially on the Mac (which clearly is a second-class
citizen as far as
JavaFX is concerned)? Are things like flashing when
opening Stages, bad
rendering performance, broken media APIs etc. an issue?

We have been busy fixing bugs to ensure a high quality release
for 9 on all supported platforms. Many of our developers have
a Mac and it is tested weekly. If you found a bug that is
still reproducible on the JDK 9 early access please file it
[1]. We will definitely investigate it.

[1]
https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/OpenJFX/Submitting+a+Bug+Report

- Chien




--
Best Regards,
Ilya Buziuk

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Florian Brunner]

Some time ago there actaully was a OpenJFX mirror repository on BitBucket.

I'm not totally sure anymore why this was stopped. I think it needs someone 
who keeps the repositories in sync and there were some concerns that it's 
harder to control who wrote a patch. But maybe the idea with CLA signers only 
members would solve this issue?

So I see 3 pain points being raised.

1. Signing the CLA.
- Personally, I don't see any way around this. If there is no CLA then 
you 
end up with a project _nobody_ is in control of.
- Basically it envolves the following steps:
 -- Download it from the website
 -- print it
 -- sign it 
 -- send it off
 -- you only have to do this once
 -- you don't have to wait for Oracle to receive it to start working 
on the issue you like to solve

   Can this be presented in a way it doesn't scare people away as according to 
some statements it seems to do now?

2. State-of-the-art code collaboration platform.
-- This would have to be something like GitHub or BitBucket
-- Only CLA signers can be members of the project
-- Someone has to be in charge to synchronize the repositories 
(probably one way only)
-- personally I like to work with feature branches in Git but I think 
you can get something similar with Mercurial bookmarks. So
--- pick an issue you would like to work on
--- consider to announce it on this mailing list
--- create a feature branch
--- start pushing your changes to the feature branch
--- other developers of the projects (all CLA signers) might chime in 
as they like
   --- once you think you're finished create a patch from the feature 
branch and add it to the issue or (if you don't have enough rights) send it to 
the mailing list
   --- take the feedback from the review, do the fixes an create another 
patch etc.

So the main benefit would be that several developers could work on the same 
issue until it gets to a high enough qualiy state to be merged into the main 
repository and not requiring one developer to do it all on his/ her own.


3. Filing and commenting on issues
  - if you don't have enough rights, file it on bugs.java.com
  - ask on this mailing list (or ask someone you know on this mailing list to 
do it for you) about the corresponding issue on bugs.openjdk.java.net
 - someone from Oracle should give anyone who filed an issue that made it to 
bugs.openjdk.java.net the enough rights so he/ she can join on the discussion 
in the issue

Any better way?


-Florian

Am Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015, 17.16:46 schrieb Tomas Mikula:
> The proposed strategy also applies to bitbucket, which does have mercurial
> support ;)
> 
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:
> > Too bad that Github cannot fork mercurial repos. It would be interesting
> > to see the real number of pull requests such a fork would gain. Maybe
> > Dalibor is right and we would end up with zero? ;-)
> > 
> > -Markus
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > From: Tomas Mikula [mailto:tomas.mik...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 23:05
> > To: Markus KARG
> > Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> > Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The review process for external contributions does not even have to be
> > different from the internal review process. There can be a virtual
> > organization on GitHub called "Oracle CLA signatories". After a pull
> > request has been reviewed, all that the OpenJFX committer has to do before
> > merging is to check whether the contributor is a member of this
> > organization.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Tomas
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > We should ask ourselfs whether we want more contributions or not. We will
> > not get them until we change something. Most contributors in the Open
> > Source just want to drop a bug report or a feature or two, and multiplied
> > by the number of those guys, this is a lot of stuff. Only few contributors
> > are willing to stay for long time, and only for those it makes sense to
> > have the complex rules. For example, I do not see why we cannot have a
> > dedicated full time "Community Officer" who simply collects the
> > contributions, reviews it, applies the needed checks and rules and all
> > that
> > instead of asking everybody to follow a complex process? That would ensure
> > the quality, but not for the cost of losing contributors.
> > 
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Hervé Girod [mailto:herve.gi...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Dienstag, 

RE: Future of JavaFX

[Markus KARG]

We should ask ourselfs whether we want more contributions or not. We will not 
get them until we change something. Most contributors in the Open Source just 
want to drop a bug report or a feature or two, and multiplied by the number of 
those guys, this is a lot of stuff. Only few contributors are willing to stay 
for long time, and only for those it makes sense to have the complex rules. For 
example, I do not see why we cannot have a dedicated full time "Community 
Officer" who simply collects the contributions, reviews it, applies the needed 
checks and rules and all that instead of asking everybody to follow a complex 
process? That would ensure the quality, but not for the cost of losing 
contributors.

-Original Message-
From: Hervé Girod [mailto:herve.gi...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 20:19
To: Markus KARG
Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX

Things are not different for Apache projects. Google does not accept any 
external contributions. The Linux kernel development is very tightly 
controlled. We should stop considering that widespread open source policies are 
only a problem with JavaFX. These policies are in place for a reason.

Hervé 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 1, 2015, at 20:13, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:
> 
> I wonder why I was able to jointly assign my copyright with a lot of other
> open source projects without having to sign papers, sent them in by fax,
> wait for a written agreement, and pray to get a JIRA account... ;-)
> 
> See, I talked to a real lot of former JavaFX contributors in the past weeks
> (visited some European JUGs in 2015), and *virtually everybody* told me that
> he is really unsatisfied with the fact that he cannot directly file to JIRA
> anymore or AT LEAST vote and comment on existing tickets. Is the JavaFX team
> clear about how many contributors you lost by that policy? I really wonder
> whether you see the reality there outside of Oracle. People stopped
> reporting bugs! This is a real problem for JavaFX. You should act. Now.
> 
> -Markus
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of
> dalibor topic
> Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 19:06
> To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
> 
>> On 01.12.2015 18:35, Markus KARG wrote:
>> With respect to TeamFX, the better question is: Are there plans to further
>> open the project so third party has an easier channel to contribute
> without
>> the hazzle of contributor agreements
> 
> "Like many other open-source communities, the OpenJDK Community requires 
> Contributors to jointly assign their copyright on contributed code." as 
> http://openjdk.java.net/contribute/ wisely says.
> 
> There is no good reason to change that.
> 
> cheers,
> dalibor topic
> -- 
> <http://www.oracle.com> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
> Phone: +494089091214 <tel:+494089091214> | Mobile: +491737185961
> <tel:+491737185961>
> 
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg
> 
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
> 
> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
> Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher
> 
> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing
> practices and products that help protect the environment
> 

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Donald Smith]

Check in with the Adopt OpenJDK list, I know there's a few people who 
pull source OpenJDK into Github -- it can't be that difficult. I'm sure 
someone can help.


 - Don

On 01/12/2015 5:16 PM, Tomas Mikula wrote:

The proposed strategy also applies to bitbucket, which does have mercurial
support ;)

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:


Too bad that Github cannot fork mercurial repos. It would be interesting
to see the real number of pull requests such a fork would gain. Maybe
Dalibor is right and we would end up with zero? ;-)

-Markus



From: Tomas Mikula [mailto:tomas.mik...@gmail.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 23:05
To: Markus KARG
Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX



The review process for external contributions does not even have to be
different from the internal review process. There can be a virtual
organization on GitHub called "Oracle CLA signatories". After a pull
request has been reviewed, all that the OpenJFX committer has to do before
merging is to check whether the contributor is a member of this
organization.



Tomas



On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu>
wrote:

We should ask ourselfs whether we want more contributions or not. We will
not get them until we change something. Most contributors in the Open
Source just want to drop a bug report or a feature or two, and multiplied
by the number of those guys, this is a lot of stuff. Only few contributors
are willing to stay for long time, and only for those it makes sense to
have the complex rules. For example, I do not see why we cannot have a
dedicated full time "Community Officer" who simply collects the
contributions, reviews it, applies the needed checks and rules and all that
instead of asking everybody to follow a complex process? That would ensure
the quality, but not for the cost of losing contributors.


-Original Message-
From: Hervé Girod [mailto:herve.gi...@gmail.com]
Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 20:19
To: Markus KARG
Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX

Things are not different for Apache projects. Google does not accept any
external contributions. The Linux kernel development is very tightly
controlled. We should stop considering that widespread open source policies
are only a problem with JavaFX. These policies are in place for a reason.

Hervé

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 1, 2015, at 20:13, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:

I wonder why I was able to jointly assign my copyright with a lot of

other

open source projects without having to sign papers, sent them in by fax,
wait for a written agreement, and pray to get a JIRA account... ;-)

See, I talked to a real lot of former JavaFX contributors in the past

weeks

(visited some European JUGs in 2015), and *virtually everybody* told me

that

he is really unsatisfied with the fact that he cannot directly file to

JIRA

anymore or AT LEAST vote and comment on existing tickets. Is the JavaFX

team

clear about how many contributors you lost by that policy? I really

wonder

whether you see the reality there outside of Oracle. People stopped
reporting bugs! This is a real problem for JavaFX. You should act. Now.

-Markus



-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On

Behalf Of

dalibor topic
Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 19:06
To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX


On 01.12.2015 18:35, Markus KARG wrote:
With respect to TeamFX, the better question is: Are there plans to

further

open the project so third party has an easier channel to contribute

without

the hazzle of contributor agreements

"Like many other open-source communities, the OpenJDK Community requires
Contributors to jointly assign their copyright on contributed code." as
http://openjdk.java.net/contribute/ wisely says.

There is no good reason to change that.

cheers,
dalibor topic
--
<http://www.oracle.com> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
Phone: +494089091214 <tel:%2B494089091214>  <tel:+494089091214

<tel:%2B494089091214> > | Mobile: +491737185961 <tel:%2B491737185961>

<tel:+491737185961 <tel:%2B491737185961> >

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher

<http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing
practices and products that help protect the environment

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Tomas Mikula]

The review process for external contributions does not even have to be
different from the internal review process. There can be a virtual
organization on GitHub called "Oracle CLA signatories". After a pull
request has been reviewed, all that the OpenJFX committer has to do before
merging is to check whether the contributor is a member of this
organization.

Tomas

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 4:41 PM, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:

> We should ask ourselfs whether we want more contributions or not. We will
> not get them until we change something. Most contributors in the Open
> Source just want to drop a bug report or a feature or two, and multiplied
> by the number of those guys, this is a lot of stuff. Only few contributors
> are willing to stay for long time, and only for those it makes sense to
> have the complex rules. For example, I do not see why we cannot have a
> dedicated full time "Community Officer" who simply collects the
> contributions, reviews it, applies the needed checks and rules and all that
> instead of asking everybody to follow a complex process? That would ensure
> the quality, but not for the cost of losing contributors.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Hervé Girod [mailto:herve.gi...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 20:19
> To: Markus KARG
> Cc: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
>
> Things are not different for Apache projects. Google does not accept any
> external contributions. The Linux kernel development is very tightly
> controlled. We should stop considering that widespread open source policies
> are only a problem with JavaFX. These policies are in place for a reason.
>
> Hervé
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 20:13, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder why I was able to jointly assign my copyright with a lot of
> other
> > open source projects without having to sign papers, sent them in by fax,
> > wait for a written agreement, and pray to get a JIRA account... ;-)
> >
> > See, I talked to a real lot of former JavaFX contributors in the past
> weeks
> > (visited some European JUGs in 2015), and *virtually everybody* told me
> that
> > he is really unsatisfied with the fact that he cannot directly file to
> JIRA
> > anymore or AT LEAST vote and comment on existing tickets. Is the JavaFX
> team
> > clear about how many contributors you lost by that policy? I really
> wonder
> > whether you see the reality there outside of Oracle. People stopped
> > reporting bugs! This is a real problem for JavaFX. You should act. Now.
> >
> > -Markus
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On
> Behalf Of
> > dalibor topic
> > Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 19:06
> > To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> > Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
> >
> >> On 01.12.2015 18:35, Markus KARG wrote:
> >> With respect to TeamFX, the better question is: Are there plans to
> further
> >> open the project so third party has an easier channel to contribute
> > without
> >> the hazzle of contributor agreements
> >
> > "Like many other open-source communities, the OpenJDK Community requires
> > Contributors to jointly assign their copyright on contributed code." as
> > http://openjdk.java.net/contribute/ wisely says.
> >
> > There is no good reason to change that.
> >
> > cheers,
> > dalibor topic
> > --
> > <http://www.oracle.com> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
> > Phone: +494089091214 <tel:+494089091214> | Mobile: +491737185961
> > <tel:+491737185961>
> >
> > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg
> >
> > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
> > Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
> > Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
> >
> > Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
> > Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
> > Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
> > Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher
> >
> > <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing
> > practices and products that help protect the environment
> >
>
>

RE: Future of JavaFX

[Daniel Kraus]

Volkswagen is doing a lot of research with JavaFX. For more than two years
now, it is their technology of choice for rapid HMI prototyping. The have
developed a framework–namely Tappas–entirely written in Java/JavaFX, which
already runs on embedded hardware, featuring a 3D map renderer.[1][2][3]

Projects like this are good to create trust in JavaFX, especially when
huge companies like Volkswagen promote the technology. However, it is
uncertain whether JavaFX will ever make it into series development.

[1]
https://oracleus.activeevents.com/2014/connect/sessionDetail.ww?SESSION_ID=3700
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2mvLSzM1kg
[3]
http://www.bredex.de/blog_article_en/research-into-the-use-of-javafx-for-in-car-infotainment.html

On 30-11-2015 22:52, Tom Eugelink wrote:
> OTOH, from what I hear VW has chosen to use JavaFX for it's in car
> systems. And I have just been on an interview for a traffic management
> system where they chose JavaFX over web based. So there also is
> adoption. But it will be slow. My gut says: give it time, and a bit of
> TLC promotionwise would not be bad.
> 
> Tom

RE: Future of JavaFX

[Markus KARG]

Dalibor,

exactly what I expected to hear from Oracle! You count the number of input
that actually made it through exactly that bureaucracy I am talking about
holding back contributors! Well done! Certainly the number is zero, that's
what I try to tell you. 

I actually talk about those people that *did not* invest the time to
contribute their JavaFX improvents, because they feat that bureaucracy. This
number is what you can gain, and it is much higher.

In fact, the number of people who feel p*-off by the JIRA-change this Summer
is much larger than you would assume. Some of them being well-known in the
JavaFX community, BTW. There are many people willing to contribute, but you
simply ignore them thanks to statistics like those. Actually I assume we're
talking about 100 people only in Germany from what the JUG leaders told me.
Further ignore them if you like. Your choice.

Count just my own JIRA tickets and multiply it by the number of JUGs and you
come near to the real potential that you miss.

-Markus

-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of
dalibor topic
Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 20:38
To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX

On 01.12.2015 20:13, Markus KARG wrote:
> anymore or AT LEAST vote and comment on existing tickets. Is the JavaFX
team
> clear about how many contributors you lost by that policy?

I think the number you're looking for is zero, judging by the number of 
'Contributed-by' changesets in the rt repository in the last 12 months.[0]

In fact, the number of such changesets has increased significantly after 
the migration to JIRA back in June. Looks like the objective reality is 
quite different from subjective perception. ;)

cheers,
dalibor topic

[0] 
http://hg.openjdk.java.net/openjfx/9-dev/rt/search/?rev=contributed-by
unt=40
-- 
<http://www.oracle.com> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
Phone: +494089091214 <tel:+494089091214> | Mobile: +491737185961
<tel:+491737185961>

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher

<http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing
practices and products that help protect the environment

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Tomas Mikula]

The fact that there are other projects with equally bad or worse
contribution process does not make the JavaFX's any less bad. Yes, there
should be (strict) policies regarding code quality. The rest of the process
should be as easy as opening a pull request.

Tomas

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 2:18 PM, Hervé Girod <herve.gi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Things are not different for Apache projects. Google does not accept any
> external contributions. The Linux kernel development is very tightly
> controlled. We should stop considering that widespread open source policies
> are only a problem with JavaFX. These policies are in place for a reason.
>
> Hervé
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Dec 1, 2015, at 20:13, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:
> >
> > I wonder why I was able to jointly assign my copyright with a lot of
> other
> > open source projects without having to sign papers, sent them in by fax,
> > wait for a written agreement, and pray to get a JIRA account... ;-)
> >
> > See, I talked to a real lot of former JavaFX contributors in the past
> weeks
> > (visited some European JUGs in 2015), and *virtually everybody* told me
> that
> > he is really unsatisfied with the fact that he cannot directly file to
> JIRA
> > anymore or AT LEAST vote and comment on existing tickets. Is the JavaFX
> team
> > clear about how many contributors you lost by that policy? I really
> wonder
> > whether you see the reality there outside of Oracle. People stopped
> > reporting bugs! This is a real problem for JavaFX. You should act. Now.
> >
> > -Markus
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On
> Behalf Of
> > dalibor topic
> > Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 19:06
> > To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> > Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
> >
> >> On 01.12.2015 18:35, Markus KARG wrote:
> >> With respect to TeamFX, the better question is: Are there plans to
> further
> >> open the project so third party has an easier channel to contribute
> > without
> >> the hazzle of contributor agreements
> >
> > "Like many other open-source communities, the OpenJDK Community requires
> > Contributors to jointly assign their copyright on contributed code." as
> > http://openjdk.java.net/contribute/ wisely says.
> >
> > There is no good reason to change that.
> >
> > cheers,
> > dalibor topic
> > --
> > <http://www.oracle.com> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
> > Phone: +494089091214 <tel:+494089091214> | Mobile: +491737185961
> > <tel:+491737185961>
> >
> > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg
> >
> > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
> > Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
> > Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
> >
> > Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
> > Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
> > Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
> > Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher
> >
> > <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing
> > practices and products that help protect the environment
> >
>

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Jeff Hain]

Felix Bembrick wrote:
>it makes them no money
>In my opinion, JavaFX should be jettisoned from the JDK


Like AWT or Swing, it plays in favor of Java adoption by
people looking for a portable way of doing something as
simple as lighting up a pixel - which are still, after all
these years, quite scarce - without having to resort to
scripts like Tcl/Tk, or web's ever-changing mixture of
dubious technologies (I say dubious to stay polite,
else I would use a more Zed Shaw-esque vocabulary).


That said (here comes my hobbyhorse), if Java also provided
stable lower level UI primitives, on which other UI frameworks
could be built, maybe UI frameworks would flourish in it as
much as messaging frameworks do (as if we still had to invent
the "sockets" of UI...), improving diversity, satisfaction and
resilience within the Java ecosystem (and Oracle would have
less need to grow a single monolithic framework attempting to
fit every possible usage).


-Jeff

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Kevin Rushforth]

Just to chime in on a couple of points that have been raised in this 
discussion...


* We are interested in working with the OpenJFX community to improve 
JavaFX. In particular: if you find a bug, file it (via bugs.java.com if 
you don't have a JBS account); if you want to contribute a patch to fix 
the bug, we'd love to review it; if you have an idea for an improvement, 
file it as an RFE (enhancement) and start up a thread on the mailing 
list. Larger features need a JEP, but smaller improvements do not.


Please be aware that as part of the OpenJDK community, we are bound by 
the processes of the OpenJDK, including the need for a signed OCA in 
order to contribute, and before you can get a JBS account. If you are 
dissatisfied with those processes and policies, then I invite you to 
discuss it on the disc...@openjdk.java.net alias, and not here.



* While we aren't planning a huge number of features in JDK 9, we are 
delivering some interesting improvements. Jigsaw is the big release 
driver and most of our effort on JavaFX is to align with that. For those 
of you who weren't at JavaOne, here is a list of things that are 
currently planned for JDK 9:


- A modularized JavaFX (into 6 core modules + deploy, swing interop, swt 
interop)


- JEP 253 -- Control Skins & additional CSS APIs (proper support for 
third-party controls)


- High DPI enhancements (full support on Windows; add support for Linux)

- Public API for commonly used methods from internal packages:
   * Nested Event Loop
   * Pulse Listener
   * Platform Startup
   * Text API (HitTest, etc)
   * Static utility functions (under investigation)

- New versions of WebKit and GStreamer

And here is an incomplete list of things we are thinking about for after 
JDK 9, possibly in an update release. In fact, the recently proposed JDK 
9 slip [1] makes it possible to consider pulling a few of them into JDK 
9, so let us know which ones you consider most important:


- Provide a JavaFX equivalent for JEP 272 / AWT ‘Desktop’ API

- Make UI Control Behaviors public

- UI Control Actions API

- Public Focus Traversal API

- JavaFX support for multi-resolution images

- Draggable tabs

- Image IO


-- Kevin

[1] 
http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/jdk9-dev/2015-December/003149.html

RE: Future of JavaFX

[Markus KARG]

Speaking of promotion an VW, does it make the Golf an outdated car just because 
they stopped TV marketing in Germany because their sales is running quite well 
still? ;-)

-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of 
Tom Eugelink
Sent: Montag, 30. November 2015 22:53
To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX

There indeed seems to be negative buzz around JavaFX, and Oracle stopping with 
promoting it, is indeed confusing, at the very least. And it is noticeable 
everywhere; without wanting to wine, I really do have a nice JavaFX / JFXtras 
presentation, but it being declined on all conferences for me is a signal about 
the interest of the community in JavaFX. And let's be honest, Oracle's whole 
"let's do cloud and forget there are companies doing this many many years 
already" U turn is not contributing to the mood as well.

OTOH, from what I hear VW has chosen to use JavaFX for it's in car systems. And 
I have just been on an interview for a traffic management system where they 
chose JavaFX over web based. So there also is adoption. But it will be slow. My 
gut says: give it time, and a bit of TLC promotionwise would not be bad.

Tom

On 30-11-2015 21:35, Florian Brunner wrote:
> I read this article as well some days ago. It has some very valid points, but
> all in all I think JavaFX is still the best option out there.
>
> That said I was quite surprised that I got confronted today with the very same
> article by colleagues of mine who are in charge with company-wide adoption of
> various technologies. They tend to agree with the article. Currently JavaFX is
> still just on our technology radar, but not promoted yet. And now they start
> thinking JavFX (and probably thus Java on desktop not even speaking about
> mobile platforms) won't make it and it's getting hard to convince them that
> JavaFX is actually a great option.
>
> Now reading this mail of yours, this article really seems to make waves.
>
> -Florian
>
>   
> Am Montag, 30. November 2015, 17.13:10 schrieb Dirk @ Google:
>> Hi there,
>>
>> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when Shay
>> Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine
>> (dlemmermann.wordpress.com) with a lot of negative comments regarding
>> JavaFX and its future. He then followed up with a long blog asking the
>> question „Should Oracle Spring-Clean JavaFX“
>> (https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html
>> <https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>).
>>
>> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff
>> like this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have
>> now reached the point where potential customers are questioning the
>> sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX
>> will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the customer
>> demands an answer from me and my partners within the next week, and if not
>> convincing they will go with something / someone else. We will loose a
>> contract worth around one million dollars because of one blog written by
>> Shay with no follow-up from Oracle.
>>
>> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees /
>> JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX
>> and that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
>>
>> Dirk

RE: Future of JavaFX

[Markus KARG]

With respect to TeamFX, the better question is: Are there plans to further
open the project so third party has an easier channel to contribute without
the hazzle of contributor agreements, JIRA accounts, and so on?

-Original Message-
From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of
Casall, Alexander
Sent: Montag, 30. November 2015 23:55
To: Donald Smith; openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net Mailing
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX

Don, thanks for your important contribution to this thread.

What exactly means oracle continues to develop on fx? What is the roadmap?

If I check the mercurial archives there are 10-12 people working constantly
on FX in this year. The most work was done by a few of them. I'm not sure
whether this is enought to move FX forward to engage more and more adopters.

The core question is, are there any plans to put more ressources on fx?

- Alex


From: Donald Smith
Sent: 30.11.15, 17:35
To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net Mailing
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and it will still be around for a while.

As of 7u6 we bundled JavaFX with the Oracle JDK, we've open sourced 100% of
the code, we continue developing for it, etc.  I understand that while there
is both Swing and JavaFX available that people will continue to question the
existence of each -- so be it.  Each has it's own niches and benefits and
our strategy, as it has been for years now, is to continue with each.

  - Don


On 30/11/2015 11:13 AM, Dirk @ Google wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when
Shay Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine
(https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>).
>
> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff
like this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have
now reached the point where potential customers are questioning the
sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX
will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the customer
demands an answer from me and my partners within the next week, and if not
convincing they will go with something / someone else. We will loose a
contract worth around one million dollars because of one blog written by
Shay with no follow-up from Oracle.
>
> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees /
JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and
that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
>
> Dirk
>
>

Re: Future of JavaFX

[dalibor topic]

On 01.12.2015 18:35, Markus KARG wrote:

With respect to TeamFX, the better question is: Are there plans to further
open the project so third party has an easier channel to contribute without
the hazzle of contributor agreements


"Like many other open-source communities, the OpenJDK Community requires 
Contributors to jointly assign their copyright on contributed code." as 
http://openjdk.java.net/contribute/ wisely says.


There is no good reason to change that.

cheers,
dalibor topic
--
 Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
Phone: +494089091214  | Mobile: +491737185961


ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg

ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603

Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher

 Oracle is committed to developing
practices and products that help protect the environment

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Hervé Girod]

Things are not different for Apache projects. Google does not accept any 
external contributions. The Linux kernel development is very tightly 
controlled. We should stop considering that widespread open source policies are 
only a problem with JavaFX. These policies are in place for a reason.

Hervé 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 1, 2015, at 20:13, Markus KARG <mar...@headcrashing.eu> wrote:
> 
> I wonder why I was able to jointly assign my copyright with a lot of other
> open source projects without having to sign papers, sent them in by fax,
> wait for a written agreement, and pray to get a JIRA account... ;-)
> 
> See, I talked to a real lot of former JavaFX contributors in the past weeks
> (visited some European JUGs in 2015), and *virtually everybody* told me that
> he is really unsatisfied with the fact that he cannot directly file to JIRA
> anymore or AT LEAST vote and comment on existing tickets. Is the JavaFX team
> clear about how many contributors you lost by that policy? I really wonder
> whether you see the reality there outside of Oracle. People stopped
> reporting bugs! This is a real problem for JavaFX. You should act. Now.
> 
> -Markus
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-boun...@openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of
> dalibor topic
> Sent: Dienstag, 1. Dezember 2015 19:06
> To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
> 
>> On 01.12.2015 18:35, Markus KARG wrote:
>> With respect to TeamFX, the better question is: Are there plans to further
>> open the project so third party has an easier channel to contribute
> without
>> the hazzle of contributor agreements
> 
> "Like many other open-source communities, the OpenJDK Community requires 
> Contributors to jointly assign their copyright on contributed code." as 
> http://openjdk.java.net/contribute/ wisely says.
> 
> There is no good reason to change that.
> 
> cheers,
> dalibor topic
> -- 
> <http://www.oracle.com> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager
> Phone: +494089091214 <tel:+494089091214> | Mobile: +491737185961
> <tel:+491737185961>
> 
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | Kühnehöfe 5 | 22761 Hamburg
> 
> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG
> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 München
> Registergericht: Amtsgericht München, HRA 95603
> 
> Komplementärin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V.
> Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande
> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697
> Geschäftsführer: Alexander van der Ven, Astrid Kepper, Val Maher
> 
> <http://www.oracle.com/commitment> Oracle is committed to developing
> practices and products that help protect the environment
> 

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Peter Pilgrim]

Hi All

I find it remarkable to see that this debate about
innovation-versus-maintenance is similar to the one going on in the
Java EE space. See
https://java.net/projects/javaee-spec/lists/users/archive/2015-01/message/48
- Many Java EE experts, including myself, are now looking at the
application servers and the ability to modularise the EE
specification, so that we can just launch an application with `java
-jar acme.jar'. Of course, we are already wrong about that command
line option, because the JDK 9 will be a game changer.

Anyway, Shai, has some valid interesting assertions in his blog entry.
I don't think it is all FUD in the way that Microsoft used to secretly
push in their strategic vision to conquer the desktop world. I do
believe that his evidence shows how weak OTHER developers view Java
client side technologies. JavaFX has not set the world on fire and has
been the vision that I saw at the first presentation in JavaOne 2007.

But that was yesterday, 8 years ago in fact. I lot of mistakes were
made, and the vision could have better. We all had to follow the
education and the learning path. Hindsight is a beautiful thing, a lot
of us though scripting languages were exciting back then. We should
have started with an all Java API solution in the first place, but
there you go...

Donald  said the JavaFX is 100% open source, so what is the real
issue. We have the code, go and build.

Alexander, I downloaded your JavaOne presentation, I went through it
last night. It is good stuff with all of those 11 business enterprise
applications. Why are these applications not good enough to show
adoption?

Last year, 2014, I watch a JavaFX talk at JavaOne on a financial
trading system written in JavaFX (CelerFX or something). What gives
here?

I am definitely a Java EE guy these days ever since I wrote two books,
but you fellows need to step up, I think, promote FX more strongly
yourselves. I know that Nandini (who is now at Twitter) pushed a FX
show case a couple times in the past, first for JavaFX 1.0 and then
1.2. Jim did with blog and is still going at Pivotal. Guys you need to
do more videos, screen captures and more talks. If the popular Java
conferences don't take you on, then f*** e* and host your own video
shows like Adam Bien. Build some excitement about what your have done
with FX in your applications. Grow some con** and come down with
the attitude.

The good news is that JDK 9 will bring a better deployment story for
Java on the whole. You can have launchers and modules that only your
application require. Perhaps, were the value is.


On 1 December 2015 at 08:21, Felix Bembrick  wrote:
> Well, it is the official Swing replacement but look at Java 9 and you won't 
> see many if any enhancements to JavaFX.  The point is Oracle has no interest 
> in desktop software other than maintaining any existing support contracts.
>
> I don't even think Oracle wants JavaFX so it would be better for everyone to 
> take ownership of it and build a company purely around JavaFX that's actually 
> profitable and keeps enhancing the product at a much faster pace.
>
>> On 1 Dec 2015, at 19:12, i...@cuhka.com wrote:
>>
>> If it is not a part of OpenJDK/Oracle JDK it will not work. Whether Oracle 
>> itself maintains the code doesn't really matter I think, but they have to 
>> put support and development in it.
>>
>> To me another downside if Oracle would suspend further development is that 
>> any statements made by Oracle seem to carry not so much value. If I'm 
>> correct JavaFX was presented by Oracle as the Swing replacement. If after a 
>> short time they revert from that position, what would that mean for any 
>> other statement?
>>
>>
>> Citeren Felix Bembrick :
>>
>>> If JavaFX stays under Oracle control, it will be the same it is today in 5 
>>> years. I really doubt they will put another dollar into its expansion and 
>>> new features.
>>>
>>> How can that be good?
>>>
>>> Plus the company that does take over could provide commercial support as 
>>> well as training (which Oracle doesn't).
>>
>>



-- 
Best wishes

Peter Pilgrim,
Java Champion / Director P.E.A.T.  LTD

    Scala and Java EE Software Development / Design / Architect
for `BlueChip' enterprises, London, UK 

I am currently writing ``Digital Java EE 7 Development'' Packt Pub
(September 2015)

 Digital ++ Finance ++ Adaptation  ++ Transformation ++ Software 

:: http://www.xenonique.co.uk/blog/  ::
:: http://twitter.com/peter_pilgrim ::
:: http://java-champions.java.net/ ::

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Felix Bembrick]

Well, it is the official Swing replacement but look at Java 9 and you won't see 
many if any enhancements to JavaFX.  The point is Oracle has no interest in 
desktop software other than maintaining any existing support contracts.

I don't even think Oracle wants JavaFX so it would be better for everyone to 
take ownership of it and build a company purely around JavaFX that's actually 
profitable and keeps enhancing the product at a much faster pace.

> On 1 Dec 2015, at 19:12, i...@cuhka.com wrote:
> 
> If it is not a part of OpenJDK/Oracle JDK it will not work. Whether Oracle 
> itself maintains the code doesn't really matter I think, but they have to put 
> support and development in it.
> 
> To me another downside if Oracle would suspend further development is that 
> any statements made by Oracle seem to carry not so much value. If I'm correct 
> JavaFX was presented by Oracle as the Swing replacement. If after a short 
> time they revert from that position, what would that mean for any other 
> statement?
> 
> 
> Citeren Felix Bembrick :
> 
>> If JavaFX stays under Oracle control, it will be the same it is today in 5 
>> years. I really doubt they will put another dollar into its expansion and 
>> new features.
>> 
>> How can that be good?
>> 
>> Plus the company that does take over could provide commercial support as 
>> well as training (which Oracle doesn't).
> 
> 

Re: Future of JavaFX

[info]

If it is not a part of OpenJDK/Oracle JDK it will not work. Whether  
Oracle itself maintains the code doesn't really matter I think, but  
they have to put support and development in it.


To me another downside if Oracle would suspend further development is  
that any statements made by Oracle seem to carry not so much value. If  
I'm correct JavaFX was presented by Oracle as the Swing replacement.  
If after a short time they revert from that position, what would that  
mean for any other statement?



Citeren Felix Bembrick :

If JavaFX stays under Oracle control, it will be the same it is  
today in 5 years. I really doubt they will put another dollar into  
its expansion and new features.


How can that be good?

Plus the company that does take over could provide commercial  
support as well as training (which Oracle doesn't).

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Felix Bembrick]

Is it really true that *all* of JavaFX is open source?

Even if it is, if I wanted to say take some aspects of the product in a radical 
new direction, wouldn't someone from Oracle have to approve the changes?

If yes, then only Oracle can bring the big enhancements that are necessary 
which we know will never happen.

As I said, the biggest impediment to the growth in features, performance and 
adoption of JavaFX is Oracle themselves.

> On 1 Dec 2015, at 20:45, Peter Pilgrim  wrote:
> 
> Hi All
> 
> I find it remarkable to see that this debate about
> innovation-versus-maintenance is similar to the one going on in the
> Java EE space. See
> https://java.net/projects/javaee-spec/lists/users/archive/2015-01/message/48
> - Many Java EE experts, including myself, are now looking at the
> application servers and the ability to modularise the EE
> specification, so that we can just launch an application with `java
> -jar acme.jar'. Of course, we are already wrong about that command
> line option, because the JDK 9 will be a game changer.
> 
> Anyway, Shai, has some valid interesting assertions in his blog entry.
> I don't think it is all FUD in the way that Microsoft used to secretly
> push in their strategic vision to conquer the desktop world. I do
> believe that his evidence shows how weak OTHER developers view Java
> client side technologies. JavaFX has not set the world on fire and has
> been the vision that I saw at the first presentation in JavaOne 2007.
> 
> But that was yesterday, 8 years ago in fact. I lot of mistakes were
> made, and the vision could have better. We all had to follow the
> education and the learning path. Hindsight is a beautiful thing, a lot
> of us though scripting languages were exciting back then. We should
> have started with an all Java API solution in the first place, but
> there you go...
> 
> Donald  said the JavaFX is 100% open source, so what is the real
> issue. We have the code, go and build.
> 
> Alexander, I downloaded your JavaOne presentation, I went through it
> last night. It is good stuff with all of those 11 business enterprise
> applications. Why are these applications not good enough to show
> adoption?
> 
> Last year, 2014, I watch a JavaFX talk at JavaOne on a financial
> trading system written in JavaFX (CelerFX or something). What gives
> here?
> 
> I am definitely a Java EE guy these days ever since I wrote two books,
> but you fellows need to step up, I think, promote FX more strongly
> yourselves. I know that Nandini (who is now at Twitter) pushed a FX
> show case a couple times in the past, first for JavaFX 1.0 and then
> 1.2. Jim did with blog and is still going at Pivotal. Guys you need to
> do more videos, screen captures and more talks. If the popular Java
> conferences don't take you on, then f*** e* and host your own video
> shows like Adam Bien. Build some excitement about what your have done
> with FX in your applications. Grow some con** and come down with
> the attitude.
> 
> The good news is that JDK 9 will bring a better deployment story for
> Java on the whole. You can have launchers and modules that only your
> application require. Perhaps, were the value is.
> 
> 
>> On 1 December 2015 at 08:21, Felix Bembrick  wrote:
>> Well, it is the official Swing replacement but look at Java 9 and you won't 
>> see many if any enhancements to JavaFX.  The point is Oracle has no interest 
>> in desktop software other than maintaining any existing support contracts.
>> 
>> I don't even think Oracle wants JavaFX so it would be better for everyone to 
>> take ownership of it and build a company purely around JavaFX that's 
>> actually profitable and keeps enhancing the product at a much faster pace.
>> 
>>> On 1 Dec 2015, at 19:12, i...@cuhka.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> If it is not a part of OpenJDK/Oracle JDK it will not work. Whether Oracle 
>>> itself maintains the code doesn't really matter I think, but they have to 
>>> put support and development in it.
>>> 
>>> To me another downside if Oracle would suspend further development is that 
>>> any statements made by Oracle seem to carry not so much value. If I'm 
>>> correct JavaFX was presented by Oracle as the Swing replacement. If after a 
>>> short time they revert from that position, what would that mean for any 
>>> other statement?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Citeren Felix Bembrick :
>>> 
 If JavaFX stays under Oracle control, it will be the same it is today in 5 
 years. I really doubt they will put another dollar into its expansion and 
 new features.
 
 How can that be good?
 
 Plus the company that does take over could provide commercial support as 
 well as training (which Oracle doesn't).
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Best wishes
> 
> Peter Pilgrim,
>Java Champion / Director P.E.A.T.  LTD
> 
>    Scala and Java EE Software Development / Design / Architect
> for `BlueChip' enterprises, London, UK 

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Mario Torre]

2015-12-01 14:03 GMT+01:00 Felix Bembrick :
> Is it really true that *all* of JavaFX is open source?
>
> Even if it is, if I wanted to say take some aspects of the product in a 
> radical new direction, wouldn't someone from Oracle have to approve the 
> changes?
>
> If yes, then only Oracle can bring the big enhancements that are necessary 
> which we know will never happen.

You can always try to propose the changes you want to see, and if it
fails, of course provided you follow the License (GPL + Classpath
Exception), you can take, modify and redistribute the sources as you
see fit.

Btw, as a general note, I always find discussing about how impossible
any contribution is *without* first trying to contribute anything a
real waste of time.

Cheers,
Mario

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Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA  FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF

Java Champion - Blog: http://neugens.wordpress.com - Twitter: @neugens
Proud GNU Classpath developer: http://www.classpath.org/
OpenJDK: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/caciocavallo/

Please, support open standards:
http://endsoftpatents.org/

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Johan Vos]

Hi Dirk, all,

Although this person from Codename One attacked me a few times before
(using words like we're selling snake oil), I tried to ignore it. This is
very uncommon for the Java community. In the Java community, we have
different views, we prefer different technologies, but we show at least
some basic respect to other views and we don't insult people. Clearly, this
isn't the policy inside Codename One. I wonder where they get the time for
writing negative things about others, rather than writing positive things
about their own technologies. So although I'm offended, I try to write code
and keep my customers happy rather than fighting.

But the moment you may lose customers because what others write about a
technology you want to use, a line is crossed. I keep all options open on
how to respond, but here are already some thoughts:

* The JavaFX engineers at Oracle (current and past) are doing a fantastic
job.

* Yes, I wish Oracle would spend more resources on JavaFX (and on Java in
general).

* JavaFX is growing. Gluon is growing.

* There are many JavaFX success stories, but unfortunately many of those
are hidden behind company walls. At Gluon, we have great customers with a
huge investment in JavaFX that make amazing products. But company policies
often prohibit us from even mentioning those on our website. This is an
issue, as I believe many people would be surprised to see who is using
JavaFX and at what size. I'm not sure how to address this, and it is
something Peter Pilgrim talked about in a follow-up post as well.

* JavaFX on Mobile is getting there. Don't believe self-declared and
aggressive "mobile experts" with a different agenda. I'm one of those
people working day and night to make this happen. And apart from very few
exceptions, the Java community has been very supportive to this effort. I
don't let those exceptions ruining my day or my customers.

* There really is a JavaFX eco-system. Oracle is spending resources on it,
and there are a large number of individuals and companies providing free
and commercial frameworks, services, trainings, books.

* JavaFX is open source with a business-friendly license. You don't like
something? Fix it.

Dirk, keep up the good work. I hope your customer realises that there is a
large community behind JavaFX, with both open-source and commercial
offerings. They should feel safe using JavaFX.

- Johan


On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 5:13 PM, Dirk @ Google <dlemmerm...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when
> Shay Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine (
> dlemmermann.wordpress.com) with a lot of negative comments regarding
> JavaFX and its future. He then followed up with a long blog asking the
> question „Should Oracle Spring-Clean JavaFX“ (
> https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html <
> https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>).
>
> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff
> like this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have
> now reached the point where potential customers are questioning the
> sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX
> will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the customer
> demands an answer from me and my partners within the next week, and if not
> convincing they will go with something / someone else. We will loose a
> contract worth around one million dollars because of one blog written by
> Shay with no follow-up from Oracle.
>
> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees /
> JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX
> and that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
>
> Dirk
>
>
>

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Johan Vos]

As far as I know, all of JavaFX is open source indeed.

If someone wants to make a big change, e.g. create another rendering
pipeline, it is very well possible to do so. I would recommend submitting
that work back to OpenJFX, by following the same procedures for committing
to the OpenJDK project, but if you want to keep that as a private
extension, I don't think there is a problem with that.

But in general, if you see a performance issue and you have an idea about
how to fix it, I don't think anyone (in or outside Oracle) will stop you
from doing this. Clearly, there have to be some procedures for submitting
patches, so the Oracle engineers won't accept every patch blindly. But as I
mentioned a number of times, not only Oracle but also other companies and
individuals can drive JavaFX forward.
Personally, I like this combination, and I welcome more committers (from
Oracle and from third parties).

- Johan


On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Felix Bembrick 
wrote:

> Is it really true that *all* of JavaFX is open source?
>
> Even if it is, if I wanted to say take some aspects of the product in a
> radical new direction, wouldn't someone from Oracle have to approve the
> changes?
>
> If yes, then only Oracle can bring the big enhancements that are necessary
> which we know will never happen.
>
> As I said, the biggest impediment to the growth in features, performance
> and adoption of JavaFX is Oracle themselves.
>
> > On 1 Dec 2015, at 20:45, Peter Pilgrim  wrote:
> >
> > Hi All
> >
> > I find it remarkable to see that this debate about
> > innovation-versus-maintenance is similar to the one going on in the
> > Java EE space. See
> >
> https://java.net/projects/javaee-spec/lists/users/archive/2015-01/message/48
> > - Many Java EE experts, including myself, are now looking at the
> > application servers and the ability to modularise the EE
> > specification, so that we can just launch an application with `java
> > -jar acme.jar'. Of course, we are already wrong about that command
> > line option, because the JDK 9 will be a game changer.
> >
> > Anyway, Shai, has some valid interesting assertions in his blog entry.
> > I don't think it is all FUD in the way that Microsoft used to secretly
> > push in their strategic vision to conquer the desktop world. I do
> > believe that his evidence shows how weak OTHER developers view Java
> > client side technologies. JavaFX has not set the world on fire and has
> > been the vision that I saw at the first presentation in JavaOne 2007.
> >
> > But that was yesterday, 8 years ago in fact. I lot of mistakes were
> > made, and the vision could have better. We all had to follow the
> > education and the learning path. Hindsight is a beautiful thing, a lot
> > of us though scripting languages were exciting back then. We should
> > have started with an all Java API solution in the first place, but
> > there you go...
> >
> > Donald  said the JavaFX is 100% open source, so what is the real
> > issue. We have the code, go and build.
> >
> > Alexander, I downloaded your JavaOne presentation, I went through it
> > last night. It is good stuff with all of those 11 business enterprise
> > applications. Why are these applications not good enough to show
> > adoption?
> >
> > Last year, 2014, I watch a JavaFX talk at JavaOne on a financial
> > trading system written in JavaFX (CelerFX or something). What gives
> > here?
> >
> > I am definitely a Java EE guy these days ever since I wrote two books,
> > but you fellows need to step up, I think, promote FX more strongly
> > yourselves. I know that Nandini (who is now at Twitter) pushed a FX
> > show case a couple times in the past, first for JavaFX 1.0 and then
> > 1.2. Jim did with blog and is still going at Pivotal. Guys you need to
> > do more videos, screen captures and more talks. If the popular Java
> > conferences don't take you on, then f*** e* and host your own video
> > shows like Adam Bien. Build some excitement about what your have done
> > with FX in your applications. Grow some con** and come down with
> > the attitude.
> >
> > The good news is that JDK 9 will bring a better deployment story for
> > Java on the whole. You can have launchers and modules that only your
> > application require. Perhaps, were the value is.
> >
> >
> >> On 1 December 2015 at 08:21, Felix Bembrick 
> wrote:
> >> Well, it is the official Swing replacement but look at Java 9 and you
> won't see many if any enhancements to JavaFX.  The point is Oracle has no
> interest in desktop software other than maintaining any existing support
> contracts.
> >>
> >> I don't even think Oracle wants JavaFX so it would be better for
> everyone to take ownership of it and build a company purely around JavaFX
> that's actually profitable and keeps enhancing the product at a much faster
> pace.
> >>
> >>> On 1 Dec 2015, at 19:12, i...@cuhka.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>> If it is not a part of 

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Daniel.]

The company where I work is using and developing with JavaFX. We're
not in production yet but have already some testing embedded systems
with it running on a [possible]customer site. The main drawback is not
having the same performance running from X than running directly from
framebuffer. By not using X we have a other big drawback too that is
not having x11vnc working, so every developer need to have a monitor
with HDMI attached to our device. I have  a task to "look for possible
solutions" but I haven't found time to attend it yet.

Regards,
- dhs

2015-11-30 18:35 GMT-02:00 Florian Brunner <fbrunnerl...@gmx.ch>:
> I read this article as well some days ago. It has some very valid points, but
> all in all I think JavaFX is still the best option out there.
>
> That said I was quite surprised that I got confronted today with the very same
> article by colleagues of mine who are in charge with company-wide adoption of
> various technologies. They tend to agree with the article. Currently JavaFX is
> still just on our technology radar, but not promoted yet. And now they start
> thinking JavFX (and probably thus Java on desktop not even speaking about
> mobile platforms) won't make it and it's getting hard to convince them that
> JavaFX is actually a great option.
>
> Now reading this mail of yours, this article really seems to make waves.
>
> -Florian
>
>
> Am Montag, 30. November 2015, 17.13:10 schrieb Dirk @ Google:
>> Hi there,
>>
>> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when Shay
>> Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine
>> (dlemmermann.wordpress.com) with a lot of negative comments regarding
>> JavaFX and its future. He then followed up with a long blog asking the
>> question „Should Oracle Spring-Clean JavaFX“
>> (https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html
>> <https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>).
>>
>> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff
>> like this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have
>> now reached the point where potential customers are questioning the
>> sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX
>> will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the customer
>> demands an answer from me and my partners within the next week, and if not
>> convincing they will go with something / someone else. We will loose a
>> contract worth around one million dollars because of one blog written by
>> Shay with no follow-up from Oracle.
>>
>> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees /
>> JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX
>> and that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
>>
>> Dirk
>



-- 
"Do or do not. There is no try"
  Yoda Master

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Mario Torre]

My humble opinion is that what should happen to stop this FUD once and
for all is that JavaFX becomes finally part of OpenJDK (as in same
codebase and same build infrastructure) and a formal part of the Java
API.

I'm sure this will happen eventually and everything seems to go toward
this goal, but it should move a bit faster.

Cheers,
Mario

2015-11-30 17:13 GMT+01:00 Dirk @ Google <dlemmerm...@gmail.com>:
> Hi there,
>
> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when Shay 
> Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine 
> (dlemmermann.wordpress.com) with a lot of negative comments regarding JavaFX 
> and its future. He then followed up with a long blog asking the question 
> „Should Oracle Spring-Clean JavaFX“ 
> (https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html 
> <https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>).
>
> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff like 
> this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have now 
> reached the point where potential customers are questioning the 
> sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX 
> will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the customer demands 
> an answer from me and my partners within the next week, and if not convincing 
> they will go with something / someone else. We will loose a contract worth 
> around one million dollars because of one blog written by Shay with no 
> follow-up from Oracle.
>
> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees / 
> JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and 
> that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
>
> Dirk
>
>



-- 
pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF
Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA  FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF

Java Champion - Blog: http://neugens.wordpress.com - Twitter: @neugens
Proud GNU Classpath developer: http://www.classpath.org/
OpenJDK: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/caciocavallo/

Please, support open standards:
http://endsoftpatents.org/

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Tomas Mikula]

The same blog post of Shay says that "Oracle never discontinues products."
At least not officially. So there you have that.

Given that the biggest achievement of JavaFX 9 will be if old things keep
working in JDK 9, I wouldn't expect any new exciting JavaFX developments
coming from Oracle.

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Dirk @ Google <dlemmerm...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when
> Shay Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine (
> dlemmermann.wordpress.com) with a lot of negative comments regarding
> JavaFX and its future. He then followed up with a long blog asking the
> question „Should Oracle Spring-Clean JavaFX“ (
> https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html <
> https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>).
>
> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff
> like this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have
> now reached the point where potential customers are questioning the
> sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX
> will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the customer
> demands an answer from me and my partners within the next week, and if not
> convincing they will go with something / someone else. We will loose a
> contract worth around one million dollars because of one blog written by
> Shay with no follow-up from Oracle.
>
> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees /
> JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX
> and that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
>
> Dirk
>
>
>

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Dirk @ Google]

Companies like the one in question need to know if something will be supported. 
„Not discontinued“ is not good enough for them.

Dirk

> Am 30.11.2015 um 18:20 schrieb Tomas Mikula <tomas.mik...@gmail.com>:
> 
> The same blog post of Shay says that "Oracle never discontinues products." At 
> least not officially. So there you have that.
> 
> Given that the biggest achievement of JavaFX 9 will be if old things keep 
> working in JDK 9, I wouldn't expect any new exciting JavaFX developments 
> coming from Oracle.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Dirk @ Google <dlemmerm...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:dlemmerm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when Shay 
> Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine 
> (dlemmermann.wordpress.com <http://dlemmermann.wordpress.com/>) with a lot of 
> negative comments regarding JavaFX and its future. He then followed up with a 
> long blog asking the question „Should Oracle Spring-Clean JavaFX“ 
> (https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html 
> <https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html> 
> <https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html 
> <https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>>).
> 
> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff like 
> this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have now 
> reached the point where potential customers are questioning the 
> sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX 
> will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the customer demands 
> an answer from me and my partners within the next week, and if not convincing 
> they will go with something / someone else. We will loose a contract worth 
> around one million dollars because of one blog written by Shay with no 
> follow-up from Oracle.
> 
> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees / 
> JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and 
> that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
> 
> Dirk
> 
> 
> 

Future of JavaFX

[Dirk @ Google]

Hi there,

there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when Shay 
Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine 
(dlemmermann.wordpress.com) with a lot of negative comments regarding JavaFX 
and its future. He then followed up with a long blog asking the question 
„Should Oracle Spring-Clean JavaFX“ 
(https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html 
<https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>). 

I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff like 
this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have now 
reached the point where potential customers are questioning the sustainability 
of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX will still be 
around in a few years. In my specific case the customer demands an answer from 
me and my partners within the next week, and if not convincing they will go 
with something / someone else. We will loose a contract worth around one 
million dollars because of one blog written by Shay with no follow-up from 
Oracle.

What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees / JavaFX 
development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and that it 
will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?

Dirk

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Ryan Cuprak]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 30, 2015, at 12:25 PM, Dirk @ Google <dlemmerm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Companies like the one in question need to know if something will be 
> supported. „Not discontinued“ is not good enough for them.
> 
> Dirk
> 
>> Am 30.11.2015 um 18:20 schrieb Tomas Mikula <tomas.mik...@gmail.com>:
>> 
>> The same blog post of Shay says that "Oracle never discontinues products." 
>> At least not officially. So there you have that.
>> 
>> Given that the biggest achievement of JavaFX 9 will be if old things keep 
>> working in JDK 9, I wouldn't expect any new exciting JavaFX developments 
>> coming from Oracle.
>> 
>> On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 11:13 AM, Dirk @ Google <dlemmerm...@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:dlemmerm...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hi there,
>> 
>> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when Shay 
>> Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine 
>> (dlemmermann.wordpress.com <http://dlemmermann.wordpress.com/>) with a lot 
>> of negative comments regarding JavaFX and its future. He then followed up 
>> with a long blog asking the question „Should Oracle Spring-Clean JavaFX“ 
>> (https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html 
>> <https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html> 
>> <https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html 
>> <https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>>).
>> 
>> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff 
>> like this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have 
>> now reached the point where potential customers are questioning the 
>> sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX 
>> will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the customer 
>> demands an answer from me and my partners within the next week, and if not 
>> convincing they will go with something / someone else. We will loose a 
>> contract worth around one million dollars because of one blog written by 
>> Shay with no follow-up from Oracle.
>> 
>> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees / 
>> JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and 
>> that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
>> 
>> Dirk
> 

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Florian Brunner]

I read this article as well some days ago. It has some very valid points, but 
all in all I think JavaFX is still the best option out there.

That said I was quite surprised that I got confronted today with the very same 
article by colleagues of mine who are in charge with company-wide adoption of 
various technologies. They tend to agree with the article. Currently JavaFX is 
still just on our technology radar, but not promoted yet. And now they start 
thinking JavFX (and probably thus Java on desktop not even speaking about 
mobile platforms) won't make it and it's getting hard to convince them that 
JavaFX is actually a great option.

Now reading this mail of yours, this article really seems to make waves.

-Florian

 
Am Montag, 30. November 2015, 17.13:10 schrieb Dirk @ Google:
> Hi there,
> 
> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when Shay
> Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine
> (dlemmermann.wordpress.com) with a lot of negative comments regarding
> JavaFX and its future. He then followed up with a long blog asking the
> question „Should Oracle Spring-Clean JavaFX“
> (https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html
> <https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>).
> 
> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff
> like this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have
> now reached the point where potential customers are questioning the
> sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX
> will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the customer
> demands an answer from me and my partners within the next week, and if not
> convincing they will go with something / someone else. We will loose a
> contract worth around one million dollars because of one blog written by
> Shay with no follow-up from Oracle.
> 
> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees /
> JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX
> and that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
> 
> Dirk

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Felix Bembrick]

The problem is that JavaFX is not used in any Oracle products (whereas Swing 
is), it makes them no money and it fact they are constantly bleeding while 
maintaining a team to develop a product that brings in no money and doesn't fit 
into their whole "cloud is everything" strategy.

I would say that from Oracles point of view, JavaFX will not be developed any 
further.

However, Gluon and RoboVM are doing their best to keep it alive but they are a 
very small under resourced team.

In my opinion, JavaFX should be jettisoned from the JDK and managed by a 
company like Gluon on all platforms and be monetised just like the very 
successful Qt Company which just sells and supports Qt. 

With JavaFX, Oracle are an impediment to its success. We need a "JavaFX 
Company" that will develop it, sell it and support it. It should be separate 
from the JDK so it can have its own independent and more frequent release cycle.

That's how to save JavaFX.

But I am probably dreaming...

> On 1 Dec 2015, at 09:54, Casall, Alexander <alexander.cas...@saxsys.de> wrote:
> 
> Don, thanks for your important contribution to this thread.
> 
> What exactly means oracle continues to develop on fx? What is the roadmap?
> 
> If I check the mercurial archives there are 10-12 people working constantly 
> on FX in this year. The most work was done by a few of them. I'm not sure 
> whether this is enought to move FX forward to engage more and more adopters.
> 
> The core question is, are there any plans to put more ressources on fx?
> 
> - Alex
> 
> 
> From: Donald Smith
> Sent: 30.11.15, 17:35
> To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net Mailing
> Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
> Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and it will still be around for a while.
> 
> As of 7u6 we bundled JavaFX with the Oracle JDK, we've open sourced 100%
> of the code, we continue developing for it, etc.  I understand that
> while there is both Swing and JavaFX available that people will continue
> to question the existence of each -- so be it.  Each has it's own niches
> and benefits and our strategy, as it has been for years now, is to
> continue with each.
> 
>  - Don
> 
> 
>> On 30/11/2015 11:13 AM, Dirk @ Google wrote:
>> Hi there,
>> 
>> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when Shay 
>> Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine 
>> (https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>).
>> 
>> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff 
>> like this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have 
>> now reached the point where potential customers are questioning the 
>> sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX 
>> will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the customer 
>> demands an answer from me and my partners within the next week, and if not 
>> convincing they will go with something / someone else. We will loose a 
>> contract worth around one million dollars because of one blog written by 
>> Shay with no follow-up from Oracle.
>> 
>> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees / 
>> JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and 
>> that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
>> 
>> Dirk
> 

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Casall, Alexander]

Don, thanks for your important contribution to this thread.

What exactly means oracle continues to develop on fx? What is the roadmap?

If I check the mercurial archives there are 10-12 people working constantly on 
FX in this year. The most work was done by a few of them. I'm not sure whether 
this is enought to move FX forward to engage more and more adopters.

The core question is, are there any plans to put more ressources on fx?

- Alex


From: Donald Smith
Sent: 30.11.15, 17:35
To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net Mailing
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and it will still be around for a while.

As of 7u6 we bundled JavaFX with the Oracle JDK, we've open sourced 100%
of the code, we continue developing for it, etc.  I understand that
while there is both Swing and JavaFX available that people will continue
to question the existence of each -- so be it.  Each has it's own niches
and benefits and our strategy, as it has been for years now, is to
continue with each.

  - Don


On 30/11/2015 11:13 AM, Dirk @ Google wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when Shay 
> Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine 
> (https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>).
>
> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff like 
> this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have now 
> reached the point where potential customers are questioning the 
> sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX 
> will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the customer demands 
> an answer from me and my partners within the next week, and if not convincing 
> they will go with something / someone else. We will loose a contract worth 
> around one million dollars because of one blog written by Shay with no 
> follow-up from Oracle.
>
> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees / 
> JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and 
> that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
>
> Dirk
>
>

RE: Future of JavaFX

[Casall, Alexander]

I don't agree. To move it away from Oracle would be the official death of fx.
And you could hire oracle engineering services, so there is commercial support, 
if you have the money to pay for.

I think one option would be, that oracle engages commiters to contribute. In 
addition the fx team should have the capacity to manage the open source 
process, like doing a lot of reviews to assure the quality.

RoboVM is sold to xamarin, so they are not in he game anymore.

I think the solution could be:
- more developers (even in India :-) )
- make OpenJFX to a real open source project

- Alex

From: Felix Bembrick
Sent: 01.12.15, 03:00
To: Casall, Alexander
Cc: Donald Smith, openjfx mailing list
Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
The problem is that JavaFX is not used in any Oracle products (whereas Swing 
is), it makes them no money and it fact they are constantly bleeding while 
maintaining a team to develop a product that brings in no money and doesn't fit 
into their whole "cloud is everything" strategy.

I would say that from Oracles point of view, JavaFX will not be developed any 
further.

However, Gluon and RoboVM are doing their best to keep it alive but they are a 
very small under resourced team.

In my opinion, JavaFX should be jettisoned from the JDK and managed by a 
company like Gluon on all platforms and be monetised just like the very 
successful Qt Company which just sells and supports Qt.

With JavaFX, Oracle are an impediment to its success. We need a "JavaFX 
Company" that will develop it, sell it and support it. It should be separate 
from the JDK so it can have its own independent and more frequent release cycle.

That's how to save JavaFX.

But I am probably dreaming...

> alexander.cas...@saxsys.de> wrote:
>
> Don, thanks for your important contribution to this thread.
>
> What exactly means oracle continues to develop on fx? What is the roadmap?
>
> If I check the mercurial archives there are 10-12 people working constantly 
> on FX in this year. The most work was done by a few of them. I'm not sure 
> whether this is enought to move FX forward to engage more and more adopters.
>
> The core question is, are there any plans to put more ressources on fx?
>
> - Alex
>
>
> From: Donald Smith
> Sent: 30.11.15, 17:35
> To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net Mailing
> Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
> Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and it will still be around for a while.
>
> As of 7u6 we bundled JavaFX with the Oracle JDK, we've open sourced 100%
> of the code, we continue developing for it, etc.  I understand that
> while there is both Swing and JavaFX available that people will continue
> to question the existence of each -- so be it.  Each has it's own niches
> and benefits and our strategy, as it has been for years now, is to
> continue with each.
>
>  - Don
>
>
>> On 30/11/2015 11:13 AM, Dirk @ Google wrote:
>> Hi there,
>>
>> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when Shay 
>> Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine 
>> (https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>).
>>
>> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff 
>> like this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have 
>> now reached the point where potential customers are questioning the 
>> sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if JavaFX 
>> will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the customer 
>> demands an answer from me and my partners within the next week, and if not 
>> convincing they will go with something / someone else. We will loose a 
>> contract worth around one million dollars because of one blog written by 
>> Shay with no follow-up from Oracle.
>>
>> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees / 
>> JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and 
>> that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
>>
>> Dirk
>

Re: Future of JavaFX

[Felix Bembrick]

If JavaFX stays under Oracle control, it will be the same it is today in 5 
years. I really doubt they will put another dollar into its expansion and new 
features. 

How can that be good?

Plus the company that does take over could provide commercial support as well 
as training (which Oracle doesn't).

> On 1 Dec 2015, at 17:35, Casall, Alexander <alexander.cas...@saxsys.de> wrote:
> 
> I don't agree. To move it away from Oracle would be the official death of fx.
> And you could hire oracle engineering services, so there is commercial 
> support, if you have the money to pay for.
> 
> I think one option would be, that oracle engages commiters to contribute. In 
> addition the fx team should have the capacity to manage the open source 
> process, like doing a lot of reviews to assure the quality.
> 
> RoboVM is sold to xamarin, so they are not in he game anymore.
> 
> I think the solution could be:
> - more developers (even in India :-) )
> - make OpenJFX to a real open source project
> 
> - Alex 
> 
> From: Felix Bembrick
> Sent: 01.12.15, 03:00
> To: Casall, Alexander
> Cc: Donald Smith, openjfx mailing list
> Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
> 
> The problem is that JavaFX is not used in any Oracle products (whereas Swing 
> is), it makes them no money and it fact they are constantly bleeding while 
> maintaining a team to develop a product that brings in no money and doesn't 
> fit into their whole "cloud is everything" strategy.
> 
> I would say that from Oracles point of view, JavaFX will not be developed any 
> further.
> 
> However, Gluon and RoboVM are doing their best to keep it alive but they are 
> a very small under resourced team.
> 
> In my opinion, JavaFX should be jettisoned from the JDK and managed by a 
> company like Gluon on all platforms and be monetised just like the very 
> successful Qt Company which just sells and supports Qt. 
> 
> With JavaFX, Oracle are an impediment to its success. We need a "JavaFX 
> Company" that will develop it, sell it and support it. It should be separate 
> from the JDK so it can have its own independent and more frequent release 
> cycle.
> 
> That's how to save JavaFX.
> 
> But I am probably dreaming...
> 
> > alexander.cas...@saxsys.de> wrote:
> > 
> > Don, thanks for your important contribution to this thread.
> > 
> > What exactly means oracle continues to develop on fx? What is the roadmap?
> > 
> > If I check the mercurial archives there are 10-12 people working constantly 
> > on FX in this year. The most work was done by a few of them. I'm not sure 
> > whether this is enought to move FX forward to engage more and more adopters.
> > 
> > The core question is, are there any plans to put more ressources on fx?
> > 
> > - Alex
> > 
> > 
> > From: Donald Smith
> > Sent: 30.11.15, 17:35
> > To: openjfx-dev@openjdk.java.net Mailing
> > Subject: Re: Future of JavaFX
> > Oracle is still committed to JavaFX and it will still be around for a while.
> > 
> > As of 7u6 we bundled JavaFX with the Oracle JDK, we've open sourced 100%
> > of the code, we continue developing for it, etc.  I understand that
> > while there is both Swing and JavaFX available that people will continue
> > to question the existence of each -- so be it.  Each has it's own niches
> > and benefits and our strategy, as it has been for years now, is to
> > continue with each.
> > 
> >  - Don
> > 
> > 
> >> On 30/11/2015 11:13 AM, Dirk @ Google wrote:
> >> Hi there,
> >> 
> >> there has been quite a shake-up in the JavaFX community last week when 
> >> Shay Almog (Codename One) first responded to a blog of mine 
> >> (https://www.codenameone.com/blog/should-oracle-spring-clean-javafx.html>).
> >> 
> >> I do understand that it is often a good strategy to not comment on stuff 
> >> like this because commenting would just draw attention to it, but we have 
> >> now reached the point where potential customers are questioning the 
> >> sustainability of a JavaFX-based solution. They are now wondering if 
> >> JavaFX will still be around in a few years. In my specific case the 
> >> customer demands an answer from me and my partners within the next week, 
> >> and if not convincing they will go with something / someone else. We will 
> >> loose a contract worth around one million dollars because of one blog 
> >> written by Shay with no follow-up from Oracle.
> >> 
> >> What is needed is an official statement from Oracle / Oracle employees / 
> >> JavaFX development team, saying that Oracle is still committed to JavaFX 
> >> and that it will still be around for a while. Can somebody please do that?
> >> 
> >> Dirk
> >