Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
On 10/07/10 18:18, Gary Starkweather wrote: Au contraire, Jon... This exchange (including the heated or extreme bits) is testimony to the vitality of the OpenSimulator community. It is the nature of open communities of all sorts that discussions are woolly and outlier opinions approach extremes. As several have said, read the whole thread and seek out the reasonable posts far a better sense of common thinking - and mebbe even consensus on some things ;-} I very much agree. This kind of discussion isn't unusual for an open-source mailing list where many different personalities with differing views can comment. As long as we strive to be sympathetic to each other's point of view rather than reflexively flaming away too much then we should be fine. The extreme opinions can sometimes seem to dominate but a more careful reading can sometimes reveal that these are in the minority (such as with the 2008 April fool's threads). On 09/07/2010 8:56 AM, Jon Brouchoud wrote: I completely agree with Enslar... this has been a terribly aggressive response to an inquiry posted with the best of intentions. If anyone is reading this thread, who had been thinking about getting involved, or how they might contribute to OpenSim in some way, I wouldn't blame them for thinking twice. On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Melanie mela...@t-data.com mailto:mela...@t-data.com wrote: Not everyone will tell you to fork off. Who is approachable should be clear after reading the thread. Melanie enslerkl...@holotech.net mailto:enslerkl...@holotech.net wrote: I think you're a bit confused as to what Open Simulator is (and what it isn't). Seems pretty foolish. Stupid people do stupid things. If you're going to beat your drum, and try to conjur up money, then at least screw your head on straight and try to get a grasp on what it is that you're trying to accomplish. Holy cow, is this what people get for asking how they can help with OpenSim? Drew came along, asking how non-coders can help, and presented fundraising as one possibility, and gets suspicion, hostility and downright insults. We have no clue what direction you are trying to head Just recently someone was asking for an OpenSim roadmap, and the consensus was We don't really have one. Now we get people screaming DON'T TREAD ON OUR ROADMAP! The issues raised are certainly valid, and it's perfectly fine to say, It's not as straightforward as you may think, but this type of response is completely uncalled for. I've been planning to invest a substantial amount of my own money in OpenSim, and would have been asking here how best to do it; apparently the best advice in this thread is fork off. Those people that actually paid money for a Facebook Clone are probably some of the dumbest people I've ever seen. P.S. Diaspora isn't a Facebook clone. It's an entirely different approach to social networking, and quite a good idea, I think. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- Justin Clark-Casey (justincc) http://justincc.org http://twitter.com/justincc ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
This started as a message to this thread, but it became too big, so I made it a blog post instead: http://www.metaverseink.com/blog/?p=35 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
Great post Diva I have replied there. Thanks to everyone who gives their spare time to this project. Kyle Gomboy CEO ReactionGrid Inc. Skype pcmash ReactionGrid Website Jibe Website News Conference Line (877) 420-6902 Direct line 407 992 8284 LinkedIn Twitter Facebook Flickr -Original Message- From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Diva Canto Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2010 10:03 AM To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long This started as a message to this thread, but it became too big, so I made it a blog post instead: http://www.metaverseink.com/blog/?p=35 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
Only to refresh the Open Source intention: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Piht3oqHYDU Never is so long enough... Alberto 2010/7/9 Michael Cerquoni nebadon2...@gmail.com Just for the Record Mark is not a OpenSimulator contributor or developer, please just ignore what he has said if it is upsetting you, he really is the last person anyone here should be listening to in terms of this project. On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Jon Brouchoud jbrouch...@gmail.comwrote: I completely agree with Enslar... this has been a terribly aggressive response to an inquiry posted with the best of intentions. If anyone is reading this thread, who had been thinking about getting involved, or how they might contribute to OpenSim in some way, I wouldn't blame them for thinking twice. On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Melanie mela...@t-data.com wrote: Not everyone will tell you to fork off. Who is approachable should be clear after reading the thread. Melanie enslerkl...@holotech.net wrote: I think you're a bit confused as to what Open Simulator is (and what it isn't). Seems pretty foolish. Stupid people do stupid things. If you're going to beat your drum, and try to conjur up money, then at least screw your head on straight and try to get a grasp on what it is that you're trying to accomplish. Holy cow, is this what people get for asking how they can help with OpenSim? Drew came along, asking how non-coders can help, and presented fundraising as one possibility, and gets suspicion, hostility and downright insults. We have no clue what direction you are trying to head Just recently someone was asking for an OpenSim roadmap, and the consensus was We don't really have one. Now we get people screaming DON'T TREAD ON OUR ROADMAP! The issues raised are certainly valid, and it's perfectly fine to say, It's not as straightforward as you may think, but this type of response is completely uncalled for. I've been planning to invest a substantial amount of my own money in OpenSim, and would have been asking here how best to do it; apparently the best advice in this thread is fork off. Those people that actually paid money for a Facebook Clone are probably some of the dumbest people I've ever seen. P.S. Diaspora isn't a Facebook clone. It's an entirely different approach to social networking, and quite a good idea, I think. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
Au contraire, Jon... This exchange (including the heated or extreme bits) is testimony to the vitality of the OpenSimulator community. It is the nature of open communities of all sorts that discussions are woolly and outlier opinions approach extremes. As several have said, read the whole thread and seek out the reasonable posts far a better sense of common thinking - and mebbe even consensus on some things ;-} On 09/07/2010 8:56 AM, Jon Brouchoud wrote: I completely agree with Enslar... this has been a terribly aggressive response to an inquiry posted with the best of intentions. If anyone is reading this thread, who had been thinking about getting involved, or how they might contribute to OpenSim in some way, I wouldn't blame them for thinking twice. On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Melanie mela...@t-data.com mailto:mela...@t-data.com wrote: Not everyone will tell you to fork off. Who is approachable should be clear after reading the thread. Melanie enslerkl...@holotech.net mailto:enslerkl...@holotech.net wrote: I think you're a bit confused as to what Open Simulator is (and what it isn't). Seems pretty foolish. Stupid people do stupid things. If you're going to beat your drum, and try to conjur up money, then at least screw your head on straight and try to get a grasp on what it is that you're trying to accomplish. Holy cow, is this what people get for asking how they can help with OpenSim? Drew came along, asking how non-coders can help, and presented fundraising as one possibility, and gets suspicion, hostility and downright insults. We have no clue what direction you are trying to head Just recently someone was asking for an OpenSim roadmap, and the consensus was We don't really have one. Now we get people screaming DON'T TREAD ON OUR ROADMAP! The issues raised are certainly valid, and it's perfectly fine to say, It's not as straightforward as you may think, but this type of response is completely uncalled for. I've been planning to invest a substantial amount of my own money in OpenSim, and would have been asking here how best to do it; apparently the best advice in this thread is fork off. Those people that actually paid money for a Facebook Clone are probably some of the dumbest people I've ever seen. P.S. Diaspora isn't a Facebook clone. It's an entirely different approach to social networking, and quite a good idea, I think. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de mailto:Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
Please let me clarify, because this whole discussion is being taken out of context. At no point did I EVER call anyone on this thread, or that is a part of the OpenSim Community stupid. My exact words were: * Seems pretty foolish. Stupid people do stupid things.* I was referring to NYC college kids spending $100,000 on a Facebook Clone. A simple Google search could display at least 1,000+ examples of Facebook Clones that are freely available (that probably could have been updated or modified). Not sure that $100,000 was needed to create yet another one. Just because Facebook changed their Privacy Settings, doesn't mean they needed to go to the extreme and say Hey, we all need to band together and try to create a new Facebook. You'll need a LOT more than $100,000 (just on server equipment and bandwidth alone) to even come close to where Facebook even is. My only point was, I don't think that money (without even sitting down and thinking about how that money will be spent, or even WHY we are trying to fund raise) will solve our perceived problems. If the problem seems to be that we're not moving fast enough then what exactly is the expectation of this one user? Are they expecting a finished product? If that's the case, then the one user may be waiting a very very very long time, because from what I understand... OpenSim is not intended to even be a finished product (it's only a core on which other platforms will be built). * Not everyone will tell you to fork off. * I do understand that some things do need to be worked on in core. I do understand that we should probably sit down and draw out a road map and at least publicly post a road map (based on a timeline) and also include a list of tasks that need to be done. So we can at least calculate how many man hours it would take (and then figure out the costs of doing the labor) and then conduct a feasibility study just to make sure that we're not tossing money into a hole (if we spend this money, what will be the end result, and does it make sense to do it?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feasibility_study Anytime you begin fund raising (or looking for sponsorship) it's at least smart to sit down and think about the economic feasibility (cost/benefit analysis) and determine what the smartest route will be. If someone wants a CryEngine type environment, then spending $1,000,000 on OpenSim development might not be the best solution, especially when you factor in the cost of development time (and how long it could push a follow-on project back) when simply buying a license for CryEngine (and developing/modifying an existing stable core) might be more cost feasible. I hate to remind everyone that we are basing OpenSim on a 2003 era technology, and there are still a lot of questions in my mind about whether we will ever meet the many expectations of the users that are asking for a finished product (especially when OpenSim is only meant to be a core and NOT a finished product). That was my whole point, and I believe those saying Hey, we need more money!! have missed the whole point. I may have sounded extreme but I'm just saying let's be sensible before we try to fund raise. If fund raising is the ultimate solution, then yes I promise that I will do what I can to help bring in the funds necessary to get the end result accomplished (possibly even throw in $100,000 or so of my own money) but even $100,000 probably won't do much of anything when you look at the over all cost of a project. My first question is: 1) What exactly is the end result that we are looking for and what still needs to be done, and is there a list of tasks that you expect to accomplish with this fund raising effort? 2) How can you even create an estimate of what you need (as far as funds) without even having a task list and without even asking the developers how many man hours it would take to do each of those tasks (and a cost estimate as to how much each task will cost to complete). 3) How can you even say Let's do fund raising without a task list, and without even a discussion as to whether these tasks will even be accepted into OpenSim core? (Your efforts may not be accepted into core and then what?) 4) Has anyone sat down and figured out the economic feasibility? Will spending $100,000 (or a $1,000,000) on a new core make sense? What are the expected end results? Will the project even be completed before it becomes useful? (i.e. If it takes 4 more years to reach a point where the core can do everything that we want it to do, and then another 2 years of development to create a finished platform with all the features that you want added, will spending 6 years of cash still meet the feasibility schedule? (Meaning will it even make sense, especially when 6 years from now, it's possible that a whole new core could be written from scratch for under a million dollars that could rival even the Frostbite 2.x engine?
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
good points Diva, anyone who is going to submit patches to core should work closely with the core developers to make sure the work they are doing will be accepted into core, this gets back to the just throwing money at the problem can create more problems than it solves, if your paying people to create patches that wont be accepted into core this could create problems for the fund raisers in the end. Just be sure your very open and accountable for the things you say and do and there shouldn't be to many problems. On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Diva Canto d...@metaverseink.com wrote: That's all great and good. Let's just make sure that we are all in the same page wrt expectations. I've read in your emails references to some undisclosed final goal; it shows in the subject of this thread (taking so long to get where?), as well as in expressions such as how non-programmers can help the code *move along* -- where to? What this means is that you have a final goal in mind. I don't know what your final goal/vision is, but note that your final goal/vision may not be the same as that of lots of people here, and it's really important that you understand that. This is so that you don't get the wrong impression that by raising money and paying someone to do some things you want done, those things will automatically be a part of the OpenSimulator core distribution. They may or they may not be, depending on many factors. Some things, as useful as they may be, don't belong in the OpenSimulator core distribution; they belong in people's open or closed extensions and in alternative distributions that target specific usage scenarios. So before you go out raising money like those 4 kids in NYC, I strongly suggest you sit down and think what it is that you would like to see done that is not done yet. Then think what's the best mechanism for making those things come to life. (those 4 kids could have used the same advice...) Your emails show a slight expectation drift, which may cause some grief in the future. Besides the standalone simulator, the OpenSimulator project is not meant to produce an out-of-the-box anything. People wanting to develop applications and services on top of OpenSim must invest a lot of extra effort to make those applications and services come to life. If you are waiting for OpenSim to enable an offer to your clients without effort on your part, you are in for a big disappointment. As Karen pointed here, there are many ways that non coders can help the project. Freely distributable content is one area where we are clearly in need of good Samaritans. On 7/8/2010 2:20 PM, Drew Hart wrote: I will contact you offlist Wordfromthe Wise. And what was said makes sense. I guess my only concern, and I am serious about doing some serious fundraising, is the use of the name Open Simulator. I guess if I raised money and laid out my position, that I am an independent third party interested in hiring coders to contribute to OpenSim, that should make using the name okay (people would know I am not officially conected)? Also, we would need some independent observer/accountant to make sure everything is cool and the money spent wisely, but I know several that would volunteer their time to do that (attorneys/accountants). So if anyone else wants to work on fundraising, etc., contact me at dreweh...@gmail.com. Or if anyone has other ideas on how non-programmers can help the code move along, I am open to anything. Even if some of the experts want to hold some training sessions so we can learn coding - though I am not sure if that is practicable. Thanks, On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Michael Cerquoni nebadon2...@gmail.comwrote: One of the problems with OpenSimulator project doing this, is it is not an established company. There is no central office or managers for this project. That aside if you wanted to try to raise funds to hire programmers who will submit their code you could certainly do that, you do not need OpenSimulator project to do this for you. You could also ask some of the OpenSim developers directly if they are interested in working for bounty if you can raise the funds. Another problem right now is most of the developers are way to busy to organize fund raising events, and from my experience Money doesnt always solve problems, and can tend to complicate things to the point they never actually get done, because once the funds run out work just flat out stops and is very difficult to get going again. One thing you do not mention is what you would like to see finished or what you feel is missing or incomplete. OpenSimulator is a very open ended project and will likely always be morphing and changing, there will likely never be an end to its development, unlike a facebook website which has very limited purpose to its goals. I am going to assume you mean Second Life compatibility, this is really just a small piece of
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
* is the use of the name Open Simulator.* Don't use the name Open Simulator. We have no clue what direction you are trying to head, or even what you are raising this money for, or even what your intentions to do with this money are. Have you considered tax liabilities? Who's going to pay the taxes on the income that you bring in? The best thing to do would be to take the money you stumble across, and possibly funnel it through an established organization like OSGrid, realXtend, or SciSim. (Possibly use their names for fundraising, if it's ok with them). Those are all legal entities which OpenSim is not. If you want to start your own private fork then feel free to do so (but please come up with your own name). There are several forks out there, you can look at realXtend, or SciSim and look at various groups that are using the core and building upon it. I think you're a bit confused as to what Open Simulator is (and what it isn't). Before you start trying to 'fund raise', you might want to figure out exactly what it is that you're trying to accomplish first. Throwing money at a problem (like those 4 kids in NY) seemed like a really foolish thing to do (especially for the people that gave their money). A simple google search on Facebook Clone should give you a pretty good list of existing projects that have already copied Facebook (and it would have saved people $10,000 on starting yet another project to copy Facebook). Seems pretty foolish. Stupid people do stupid things. Probably the best thing you could do is start working on contributing good content (textures, clothes, houses, realistic looking models, boats, cars, trains, aircraft). If you want to conjur up some money to help with improving the Physics system, that's probably not a bad idea. realXtend supports PAL, maybe we could get that integrated into core here? http://www.adrianboeing.com/pal/index.html PAL would at least give OpenSim Bullet, Newton, PhysX and Newton support. If you're a user of OSGrid, then maybe you might want an advanced Combat system created, or maybe more realistic/better looking water? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G9anRoYGko Even if you do raise money, there are no guarantees that whatever you're raising money for (which I don't believe you even know or understand what it is that you're trying to raise money for) and there are no guarantees that anything that you pay people to do will even get accepted into core. It might be best to find yourself a group that already has developers, and possibly ask if you can help fund their work. Or go find a group that uses OpenSim core for their own distribution (i.e. realXtend, SciSim, OSGrid, Diva Distribution, etc.) If you want something cool added, then talk to one of the Dev's, and see if you can get the features that you want added (just make sure that you make the source readily available, but it would probably be best to find a group that puts out a distribution of OpenSim that you want to use, and then just ask that they add the features that you're looking for). I believe Melanie, Adam Frisby and a few other dev's do work for hire, so you could always talk to them about what areas you'd like to see improved, and offer your cash to them. If you're looking to fund raise then maybe consider giving money to organizations like OSGrid, or realXtend or SciSim, or possibly just help fund a research project over at UCB and see if they'd be willing to take your money and put it to good use. There are plenty of active projects based on the OpenSim core (all of which are fully open source projects that often contribute their work back to core, or at least make their own work/distributions publicly available to use and release them as open source and make them freely available to anyone that wants it. Take a look at realXtend, SciSim, or OSGrid (among others). If you're unhappy with the physics, then that's certainly one area that could use some help. You can always hire a private developer or offer Melanie, or Adam Frisby (or any of the others that do core work) and see if they would be interested in helping you improve a few aspects of the core. If you're looking to raise funds, it would probably be better to ask others to donate to or support OSGrid or support realXtend or support SciSim (or support a UCB Research Project). As most of those groups are already organizations (legal entities) and it wouldn't be good to just start throwing words like OpenSimulator around. realXtend does a lot of work based on OpenSim. They've added support for Ogre3d, and various other things. Talk to them about what you'd like to see added to their distribution (or maybe you want something added to the Diva distribution) but figure out what it is that you're trying to accomplish first. If you are trying to have a feature or something added, then just discuss it here. If you can manage to raise some major financial support, then you could always fund a private
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
I have a couple concerns about this proposal. OpenSimulator has been largely developed through volunteer contributions. If money is brought in to help speed up development, it should be spread around to active contributors so as to not negatively influence morale among volunteer developers. Further, asking volunteer developers to train paid developers could further destroy morale. Adding more developers who are not familiar with the existing code base usually has a negative impact on development time. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mythical_Man-Month On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Drew Hart dreweh...@gmail.com wrote: Okay, that was my catchy title that in no way means any disrespect. I love OpenSim, have used it for years, tell everyone I meet about it and am a huge fan and supporter. Recently a question was asked about a roadmap and progress. I would like to expand on that. OpenSim has now been around for a while - like years. Yet I can't really use it for clients. So here is my question. As a non-coder, how can others help. For example, I would gladly donate some decent money if there were a coordinated fundraising event and a plan to hire a couple of full-time, very qualified developers to really move this along. Please, please, please don't take this the wrong way. This is NOT a criticism. I know this is done by volunteers and I know that this is more ambitious than Second Life, but have we looked at other solutions to move the process along. I think there are a lot of people like me who would contribute. But, and I stress this. Me donating say $1,000 by myself isn't going to do anything. We would need a serious fundraising drive, and specific and talented people that we could hire full-time as consultants/coders to really move this along. I would imagine I am not the first to suggest this. But every day I see this awesome product I want to use, yet it seems months or years away from stable wide-spread use. There are now several web sites that help in fundraising. I am sure many of you read about the NYU students that raised several hundred thousand dollars in a short time so they could spend their summer coding a Facebook clone (sort of). Now if 4 undergrads can get that kind of money for a Facebook clone, why hasn't OpenSim tried something similar. These fundraising sites are hot right now - let's take advantage of them! Please read: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/nyregion/12about.html The article was written before they raised much more money. http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/nyregion/12about.html?scp=3sq=nyu%20programmersst=cse Drew ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
* if your paying people to create patches that wont * * be accepted into core this could create problems * * for the fund raisers in the end.* I completely agree. If you're going to beat your drum, and try to conjur up money, then at least screw your head on straight and try to get a grasp on what it is that you're trying to accomplish. You may want to turn OpenSim into a wonderful gaming engine, with some of the best graphics in the world. That's great, and I'd love to see it as well, but what will end up getting accepted into core is a totally different subject. Much of your work could just end up being wasted and useless. There are several different major distributions out there already (realXtend, SciSim, OSGrid, Diva distribution, etc.). Sit down, think about what distribution it is that you use the most, and then figure out what you want fixed or added, and then begin to solicit help from the dev's, or simply open up a discussion here on the list, and see if what you are asking to do can even be done. Then ask for a quote as to how much it would cost to have it done (approx man hours x hourly rate) or possibly a flat fee for the job, and then go conjur up your financial support (to cover the costs of that work) and just make sure before you do something that it's discussed thoroughly in the threads, so that the core dev's know what it is that you're trying to do, and whether or not it will even get accepted into core. Then try to hire someone from core to do the work for you, because that's your best chance of it getting put into core. ;-) On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 1:17 AM, Michael Cerquoni nebadon2...@gmail.comwrote: good points Diva, anyone who is going to submit patches to core should work closely with the core developers to make sure the work they are doing will be accepted into core, this gets back to the just throwing money at the problem can create more problems than it solves, if your paying people to create patches that wont be accepted into core this could create problems for the fund raisers in the end. Just be sure your very open and accountable for the things you say and do and there shouldn't be to many problems. On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Diva Canto d...@metaverseink.com wrote: That's all great and good. Let's just make sure that we are all in the same page wrt expectations. I've read in your emails references to some undisclosed final goal; it shows in the subject of this thread (taking so long to get where?), as well as in expressions such as how non-programmers can help the code *move along* -- where to? What this means is that you have a final goal in mind. I don't know what your final goal/vision is, but note that your final goal/vision may not be the same as that of lots of people here, and it's really important that you understand that. This is so that you don't get the wrong impression that by raising money and paying someone to do some things you want done, those things will automatically be a part of the OpenSimulator core distribution. They may or they may not be, depending on many factors. Some things, as useful as they may be, don't belong in the OpenSimulator core distribution; they belong in people's open or closed extensions and in alternative distributions that target specific usage scenarios. So before you go out raising money like those 4 kids in NYC, I strongly suggest you sit down and think what it is that you would like to see done that is not done yet. Then think what's the best mechanism for making those things come to life. (those 4 kids could have used the same advice...) Your emails show a slight expectation drift, which may cause some grief in the future. Besides the standalone simulator, the OpenSimulator project is not meant to produce an out-of-the-box anything. People wanting to develop applications and services on top of OpenSim must invest a lot of extra effort to make those applications and services come to life. If you are waiting for OpenSim to enable an offer to your clients without effort on your part, you are in for a big disappointment. As Karen pointed here, there are many ways that non coders can help the project. Freely distributable content is one area where we are clearly in need of good Samaritans. On 7/8/2010 2:20 PM, Drew Hart wrote: I will contact you offlist Wordfromthe Wise. And what was said makes sense. I guess my only concern, and I am serious about doing some serious fundraising, is the use of the name Open Simulator. I guess if I raised money and laid out my position, that I am an independent third party interested in hiring coders to contribute to OpenSim, that should make using the name okay (people would know I am not officially conected)? Also, we would need some independent observer/accountant to make sure everything is cool and the money spent wisely, but I know several that would volunteer their time to do that (attorneys/accountants). So if
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
Not everyone will tell you to fork off. Who is approachable should be clear after reading the thread. Melanie enslerkl...@holotech.net wrote: I think you're a bit confused as to what Open Simulator is (and what it isn't). Seems pretty foolish. Stupid people do stupid things. If you're going to beat your drum, and try to conjur up money, then at least screw your head on straight and try to get a grasp on what it is that you're trying to accomplish. Holy cow, is this what people get for asking how they can help with OpenSim? Drew came along, asking how non-coders can help, and presented fundraising as one possibility, and gets suspicion, hostility and downright insults. We have no clue what direction you are trying to head Just recently someone was asking for an OpenSim roadmap, and the consensus was We don't really have one. Now we get people screaming DON'T TREAD ON OUR ROADMAP! The issues raised are certainly valid, and it's perfectly fine to say, It's not as straightforward as you may think, but this type of response is completely uncalled for. I've been planning to invest a substantial amount of my own money in OpenSim, and would have been asking here how best to do it; apparently the best advice in this thread is fork off. Those people that actually paid money for a Facebook Clone are probably some of the dumbest people I've ever seen. P.S. Diaspora isn't a Facebook clone. It's an entirely different approach to social networking, and quite a good idea, I think. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
Melanie only brushes up against the truth in that last post. The fact is, this is an open list, and detractors and other haters have equal opportunity to reply to our topics (and occasionally do). As a general rule, feel free to ignore those at the extreme ends of the expression spectrum ;) Cheers and Thanks for your interest in helping out :) James SimHost.com On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Melanie mela...@t-data.com wrote: Not everyone will tell you to fork off. Who is approachable should be clear after reading the thread. Melanie enslerkl...@holotech.net wrote: I think you're a bit confused as to what Open Simulator is (and what it isn't). Seems pretty foolish. Stupid people do stupid things. If you're going to beat your drum, and try to conjur up money, then at least screw your head on straight and try to get a grasp on what it is that you're trying to accomplish. Holy cow, is this what people get for asking how they can help with OpenSim? Drew came along, asking how non-coders can help, and presented fundraising as one possibility, and gets suspicion, hostility and downright insults. We have no clue what direction you are trying to head Just recently someone was asking for an OpenSim roadmap, and the consensus was We don't really have one. Now we get people screaming DON'T TREAD ON OUR ROADMAP! The issues raised are certainly valid, and it's perfectly fine to say, It's not as straightforward as you may think, but this type of response is completely uncalled for. I've been planning to invest a substantial amount of my own money in OpenSim, and would have been asking here how best to do it; apparently the best advice in this thread is fork off. Those people that actually paid money for a Facebook Clone are probably some of the dumbest people I've ever seen. P.S. Diaspora isn't a Facebook clone. It's an entirely different approach to social networking, and quite a good idea, I think. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- === http://osgrid.org http://twitter.com/jstallings2 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49 ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
Just for the Record Mark is not a OpenSimulator contributor or developer, please just ignore what he has said if it is upsetting you, he really is the last person anyone here should be listening to in terms of this project. On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Jon Brouchoud jbrouch...@gmail.com wrote: I completely agree with Enslar... this has been a terribly aggressive response to an inquiry posted with the best of intentions. If anyone is reading this thread, who had been thinking about getting involved, or how they might contribute to OpenSim in some way, I wouldn't blame them for thinking twice. On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Melanie mela...@t-data.com wrote: Not everyone will tell you to fork off. Who is approachable should be clear after reading the thread. Melanie enslerkl...@holotech.net wrote: I think you're a bit confused as to what Open Simulator is (and what it isn't). Seems pretty foolish. Stupid people do stupid things. If you're going to beat your drum, and try to conjur up money, then at least screw your head on straight and try to get a grasp on what it is that you're trying to accomplish. Holy cow, is this what people get for asking how they can help with OpenSim? Drew came along, asking how non-coders can help, and presented fundraising as one possibility, and gets suspicion, hostility and downright insults. We have no clue what direction you are trying to head Just recently someone was asking for an OpenSim roadmap, and the consensus was We don't really have one. Now we get people screaming DON'T TREAD ON OUR ROADMAP! The issues raised are certainly valid, and it's perfectly fine to say, It's not as straightforward as you may think, but this type of response is completely uncalled for. I've been planning to invest a substantial amount of my own money in OpenSim, and would have been asking here how best to do it; apparently the best advice in this thread is fork off. Those people that actually paid money for a Facebook Clone are probably some of the dumbest people I've ever seen. P.S. Diaspora isn't a Facebook clone. It's an entirely different approach to social networking, and quite a good idea, I think. ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev -- Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
On Fri, Jul 9, 2010 at 1:20 PM, LS Tinker tin...@lovejoysim.com wrote: As an open project - and one that embraces addons, forks, distributions, etc. - direction and thrust are localized in different sub-sections so that the trajectory of the project as a whole feels a little sluggish (even aimless) much of the time. Still, we do make steady progress with good humor, confidence and dedication. a suggestion for the thread starter is to fund and develop a Virtual Worlds Content Creation System. If somebody would build the stack that covers 1 terrain maps and textures 2 object/asset creation 3 avatar creation that would help the Project as a whole and not have to worry about getting code into OS Core (but would need say the OAR/IAR format bits of the code). -- Robert L Martin ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
One of the problems with OpenSimulator project doing this, is it is not an established company. There is no central office or managers for this project. That aside if you wanted to try to raise funds to hire programmers who will submit their code you could certainly do that, you do not need OpenSimulator project to do this for you. You could also ask some of the OpenSim developers directly if they are interested in working for bounty if you can raise the funds. Another problem right now is most of the developers are way to busy to organize fund raising events, and from my experience Money doesnt always solve problems, and can tend to complicate things to the point they never actually get done, because once the funds run out work just flat out stops and is very difficult to get going again. One thing you do not mention is what you would like to see finished or what you feel is missing or incomplete. OpenSimulator is a very open ended project and will likely always be morphing and changing, there will likely never be an end to its development, unlike a facebook website which has very limited purpose to its goals. I am going to assume you mean Second Life compatibility, this is really just a small piece of opensimulator and I will think that you will find that most of the people directly involved in OpenSimulator are not that interested in recreating second life, there are many avenues being pursued right now that look nothing like Second Life, one of the major factors really holding this project back is the lack of a Open-Source viewer that the OpenSimulator developers can work on that is in a usable state, the Second Life viewer source code is off limits to OpenSimulator developers and because of this making OpenSimulator be second life compatible is not always easy or even possible at all in some cases. I think once we see viewers like Realxtend Naali and others become more usable you will see OpenSimulator move even further from trying to be a second life clone. But these are just some of the reasons that I see OpenSimulator is taking as long as it has, and it will likely continue to take just as long no matter how much money you throw at it, but like i said, anyone who has the desire can raise funds and hire developers to get involved and contribute the code to this project, so please do not wait for the OpenSimulator developers to do this for you, as some of the developers that work for Intel Corp and IBM Corp, and others like Melanie and Justin have been paid to develop and create patches as well as for profit grids like Reaction Grid, so its not like this is really something that is not currently happening. Hope this helps to explain atleast a little of why things are the way they are. On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Drew Hart dreweh...@gmail.com wrote: Okay, that was my catchy title that in no way means any disrespect. I love OpenSim, have used it for years, tell everyone I meet about it and am a huge fan and supporter. Recently a question was asked about a roadmap and progress. I would like to expand on that. OpenSim has now been around for a while - like years. Yet I can't really use it for clients. So here is my question. As a non-coder, how can others help. For example, I would gladly donate some decent money if there were a coordinated fundraising event and a plan to hire a couple of full-time, very qualified developers to really move this along. Please, please, please don't take this the wrong way. This is NOT a criticism. I know this is done by volunteers and I know that this is more ambitious than Second Life, but have we looked at other solutions to move the process along. I think there are a lot of people like me who would contribute. But, and I stress this. Me donating say $1,000 by myself isn't going to do anything. We would need a serious fundraising drive, and specific and talented people that we could hire full-time as consultants/coders to really move this along. I would imagine I am not the first to suggest this. But every day I see this awesome product I want to use, yet it seems months or years away from stable wide-spread use. There are now several web sites that help in fundraising. I am sure many of you read about the NYU students that raised several hundred thousand dollars in a short time so they could spend their summer coding a Facebook clone (sort of). Now if 4 undergrads can get that kind of money for a Facebook clone, why hasn't OpenSim tried something similar. These fundraising sites are hot right now - let's take advantage of them! Please read: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/nyregion/12about.html The article was written before they raised much more money. http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/nyregion/12about.html?scp=3sq=nyu%20programmersst=cse Drew ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
Hi Drew, i was thinking the same just 1 month ago. I directly contacted Nebadon one of the Devs (on OSGRID) about spending some money for the physics engine. He told me that Funds are always welcome and told me to ask the physics guru Revolution Smythe. I had some nice conversation but as Nebadon said in the mail to this list, most developers are also busy in the RL. But if you like we, together can mail Offlist and see what we can do on this issue. best regards Wordfromthe Wise _ Von: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] Im Auftrag von Drew Hart Gesendet: Donnerstag, 8. Juli 2010 16:38 An: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de Betreff: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long Okay, that was my catchy title that in no way means any disrespect. I love OpenSim, have used it for years, tell everyone I meet about it and am a huge fan and supporter. Recently a question was asked about a roadmap and progress. I would like to expand on that. OpenSim has now been around for a while - like years. Yet I can't really use it for clients. So here is my question. As a non-coder, how can others help. For example, I would gladly donate some decent money if there were a coordinated fundraising event and a plan to hire a couple of full-time, very qualified developers to really move this along. Please, please, please don't take this the wrong way. This is NOT a criticism. I know this is done by volunteers and I know that this is more ambitious than Second Life, but have we looked at other solutions to move the process along. I think there are a lot of people like me who would contribute. But, and I stress this. Me donating say $1,000 by myself isn't going to do anything. We would need a serious fundraising drive, and specific and talented people that we could hire full-time as consultants/coders to really move this along. I would imagine I am not the first to suggest this. But every day I see this awesome product I want to use, yet it seems months or years away from stable wide-spread use. There are now several web sites that help in fundraising. I am sure many of you read about the NYU students that raised several hundred thousand dollars in a short time so they could spend their summer coding a Facebook clone (sort of). Now if 4 undergrads can get that kind of money for a Facebook clone, why hasn't OpenSim tried something similar. These fundraising sites are hot right now - let's take advantage of them! Please read: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/nyregion/12about.html The article was written before they raised much more money. http://community.nytimes.com/comments/www.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/nyregion/1 2about.html?scp=3sq=nyu%20programmersst=cse Drew ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
I will contact you offlist Wordfromthe Wise. And what was said makes sense. I guess my only concern, and I am serious about doing some serious fundraising, is the use of the name Open Simulator. I guess if I raised money and laid out my position, that I am an independent third party interested in hiring coders to contribute to OpenSim, that should make using the name okay (people would know I am not officially conected)? Also, we would need some independent observer/accountant to make sure everything is cool and the money spent wisely, but I know several that would volunteer their time to do that (attorneys/accountants). So if anyone else wants to work on fundraising, etc., contact me at dreweh...@gmail.com. Or if anyone has other ideas on how non-programmers can help the code move along, I am open to anything. Even if some of the experts want to hold some training sessions so we can learn coding - though I am not sure if that is practicable. Thanks, On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Michael Cerquoni nebadon2...@gmail.comwrote: One of the problems with OpenSimulator project doing this, is it is not an established company. There is no central office or managers for this project. That aside if you wanted to try to raise funds to hire programmers who will submit their code you could certainly do that, you do not need OpenSimulator project to do this for you. You could also ask some of the OpenSim developers directly if they are interested in working for bounty if you can raise the funds. Another problem right now is most of the developers are way to busy to organize fund raising events, and from my experience Money doesnt always solve problems, and can tend to complicate things to the point they never actually get done, because once the funds run out work just flat out stops and is very difficult to get going again. One thing you do not mention is what you would like to see finished or what you feel is missing or incomplete. OpenSimulator is a very open ended project and will likely always be morphing and changing, there will likely never be an end to its development, unlike a facebook website which has very limited purpose to its goals. I am going to assume you mean Second Life compatibility, this is really just a small piece of opensimulator and I will think that you will find that most of the people directly involved in OpenSimulator are not that interested in recreating second life, there are many avenues being pursued right now that look nothing like Second Life, one of the major factors really holding this project back is the lack of a Open-Source viewer that the OpenSimulator developers can work on that is in a usable state, the Second Life viewer source code is off limits to OpenSimulator developers and because of this making OpenSimulator be second life compatible is not always easy or even possible at all in some cases. I think once we see viewers like Realxtend Naali and others become more usable you will see OpenSimulator move even further from trying to be a second life clone. But these are just some of the reasons that I see OpenSimulator is taking as long as it has, and it will likely continue to take just as long no matter how much money you throw at it, but like i said, anyone who has the desire can raise funds and hire developers to get involved and contribute the code to this project, so please do not wait for the OpenSimulator developers to do this for you, as some of the developers that work for Intel Corp and IBM Corp, and others like Melanie and Justin have been paid to develop and create patches as well as for profit grids like Reaction Grid, so its not like this is really something that is not currently happening. Hope this helps to explain atleast a little of why things are the way they are. On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Drew Hart dreweh...@gmail.com wrote: Okay, that was my catchy title that in no way means any disrespect. I love OpenSim, have used it for years, tell everyone I meet about it and am a huge fan and supporter. Recently a question was asked about a roadmap and progress. I would like to expand on that. OpenSim has now been around for a while - like years. Yet I can't really use it for clients. So here is my question. As a non-coder, how can others help. For example, I would gladly donate some decent money if there were a coordinated fundraising event and a plan to hire a couple of full-time, very qualified developers to really move this along. Please, please, please don't take this the wrong way. This is NOT a criticism. I know this is done by volunteers and I know that this is more ambitious than Second Life, but have we looked at other solutions to move the process along. I think there are a lot of people like me who would contribute. But, and I stress this. Me donating say $1,000 by myself isn't going to do anything. We would need a serious fundraising drive, and specific
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
May be a picky point, but OpenSim refers to somehting completely different than this project! Any fund raising (or whatever) should be in the name of OpenSimulator which IS the project name! Otherwise - GO FOR IT! Karen On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 2:20 PM, Drew Hart dreweh...@gmail.com wrote: I will contact you offlist Wordfromthe Wise. And what was said makes sense. I guess my only concern, and I am serious about doing some serious fundraising, is the use of the name Open Simulator. I guess if I raised money and laid out my position, that I am an independent third party interested in hiring coders to contribute to OpenSim, that should make using the name okay (people would know I am not officially conected)? Also, we would need some independent observer/accountant to make sure everything is cool and the money spent wisely, but I know several that would volunteer their time to do that (attorneys/accountants). So if anyone else wants to work on fundraising, etc., contact me at dreweh...@gmail.com. Or if anyone has other ideas on how non-programmers can help the code move along, I am open to anything. Even if some of the experts want to hold some training sessions so we can learn coding - though I am not sure if that is practicable. Thanks, On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Michael Cerquoni nebadon2...@gmail.comwrote: One of the problems with OpenSimulator project doing this, is it is not an established company. There is no central office or managers for this project. That aside if you wanted to try to raise funds to hire programmers who will submit their code you could certainly do that, you do not need OpenSimulator project to do this for you. You could also ask some of the OpenSim developers directly if they are interested in working for bounty if you can raise the funds. Another problem right now is most of the developers are way to busy to organize fund raising events, and from my experience Money doesnt always solve problems, and can tend to complicate things to the point they never actually get done, because once the funds run out work just flat out stops and is very difficult to get going again. One thing you do not mention is what you would like to see finished or what you feel is missing or incomplete. OpenSimulator is a very open ended project and will likely always be morphing and changing, there will likely never be an end to its development, unlike a facebook website which has very limited purpose to its goals. I am going to assume you mean Second Life compatibility, this is really just a small piece of opensimulator and I will think that you will find that most of the people directly involved in OpenSimulator are not that interested in recreating second life, there are many avenues being pursued right now that look nothing like Second Life, one of the major factors really holding this project back is the lack of a Open-Source viewer that the OpenSimulator developers can work on that is in a usable state, the Second Life viewer source code is off limits to OpenSimulator developers and because of this making OpenSimulator be second life compatible is not always easy or even possible at all in some cases. I think once we see viewers like Realxtend Naali and others become more usable you will see OpenSimulator move even further from trying to be a second life clone. But these are just some of the reasons that I see OpenSimulator is taking as long as it has, and it will likely continue to take just as long no matter how much money you throw at it, but like i said, anyone who has the desire can raise funds and hire developers to get involved and contribute the code to this project, so please do not wait for the OpenSimulator developers to do this for you, as some of the developers that work for Intel Corp and IBM Corp, and others like Melanie and Justin have been paid to develop and create patches as well as for profit grids like Reaction Grid, so its not like this is really something that is not currently happening. Hope this helps to explain atleast a little of why things are the way they are. On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Drew Hart dreweh...@gmail.com wrote: Okay, that was my catchy title that in no way means any disrespect. I love OpenSim, have used it for years, tell everyone I meet about it and am a huge fan and supporter. Recently a question was asked about a roadmap and progress. I would like to expand on that. OpenSim has now been around for a while - like years. Yet I can't really use it for clients. So here is my question. As a non-coder, how can others help. For example, I would gladly donate some decent money if there were a coordinated fundraising event and a plan to hire a couple of full-time, very qualified developers to really move this along. Please, please, please don't take this the wrong way. This is NOT a criticism. I know this is done by volunteers and I know that this is
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
Hi, generally, there are two ways to go about advancing development of a project. One can do it as a closed, or as an open project. With an open project, this is rather easy. You simply compensate a developer for their time to develop certain features of the program and publish the source code under the project's license. At that point, I would see no issue with using the name OpenSimulator as a name to describe the project, provided it is not used to appear to endorse a business venture or another product or service. With closed source, the use of the name should be limited to based on OpenSimulator when describing the product. Further or more extended use of the name would be frowned upon. Developers here, myself included, have taken payment to provide OpenSource code to the community. I am sure that you will find receptive ears when asking for certain features and offering compensation. I, myself, am not adverse to this. Regards, Melanie Drew Hart wrote: I will contact you offlist Wordfromthe Wise. And what was said makes sense. I guess my only concern, and I am serious about doing some serious fundraising, is the use of the name Open Simulator. I guess if I raised money and laid out my position, that I am an independent third party interested in hiring coders to contribute to OpenSim, that should make using the name okay (people would know I am not officially conected)? Also, we would need some independent observer/accountant to make sure everything is cool and the money spent wisely, but I know several that would volunteer their time to do that (attorneys/accountants). So if anyone else wants to work on fundraising, etc., contact me at dreweh...@gmail.com. Or if anyone has other ideas on how non-programmers can help the code move along, I am open to anything. Even if some of the experts want to hold some training sessions so we can learn coding - though I am not sure if that is practicable. Thanks, On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Michael Cerquoni nebadon2...@gmail.comwrote: One of the problems with OpenSimulator project doing this, is it is not an established company. There is no central office or managers for this project. That aside if you wanted to try to raise funds to hire programmers who will submit their code you could certainly do that, you do not need OpenSimulator project to do this for you. You could also ask some of the OpenSim developers directly if they are interested in working for bounty if you can raise the funds. Another problem right now is most of the developers are way to busy to organize fund raising events, and from my experience Money doesnt always solve problems, and can tend to complicate things to the point they never actually get done, because once the funds run out work just flat out stops and is very difficult to get going again. One thing you do not mention is what you would like to see finished or what you feel is missing or incomplete. OpenSimulator is a very open ended project and will likely always be morphing and changing, there will likely never be an end to its development, unlike a facebook website which has very limited purpose to its goals. I am going to assume you mean Second Life compatibility, this is really just a small piece of opensimulator and I will think that you will find that most of the people directly involved in OpenSimulator are not that interested in recreating second life, there are many avenues being pursued right now that look nothing like Second Life, one of the major factors really holding this project back is the lack of a Open-Source viewer that the OpenSimulator developers can work on that is in a usable state, the Second Life viewer source code is off limits to OpenSimulator developers and because of this making OpenSimulator be second life compatible is not always easy or even possible at all in some cases. I think once we see viewers like Realxtend Naali and others become more usable you will see OpenSimulator move even further from trying to be a second life clone. But these are just some of the reasons that I see OpenSimulator is taking as long as it has, and it will likely continue to take just as long no matter how much money you throw at it, but like i said, anyone who has the desire can raise funds and hire developers to get involved and contribute the code to this project, so please do not wait for the OpenSimulator developers to do this for you, as some of the developers that work for Intel Corp and IBM Corp, and others like Melanie and Justin have been paid to develop and create patches as well as for profit grids like Reaction Grid, so its not like this is really something that is not currently happening. Hope this helps to explain atleast a little of why things are the way they are. On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 7:38 AM, Drew Hart dreweh...@gmail.com wrote: Okay, that was my catchy title that in no way means any disrespect. I love
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
On 08/07/10 22:20, Drew Hart wrote: I will contact you offlist Wordfromthe Wise. And what was said makes sense. I guess my only concern, and I am serious about doing some serious fundraising, is the use of the name Open Simulator. I guess if I raised money and laid out my position, that I am an independent third party interested in hiring coders to contribute to OpenSim, that should make using the name okay (people would know I am not officially conected)? Also, we would need some independent observer/accountant to make sure everything is cool and the money spent wisely, but I know several that would volunteer their time to do that (attorneys/accountants). So if anyone else wants to work on fundraising, etc., contact me at dreweh...@gmail.com mailto:dreweh...@gmail.com. Or if anyone has other ideas on how non-programmers can help the code move along, I am open to anything. Even if some of the experts want to hold some training sessions so we can learn coding - though I am not sure if that is practicable. Thanks, Sorry to start off heavy, but please could you not use the name OpenSimulator as part of any external project name. I have to disagree with Melanie about this - I think that this has to apply to all projects whether commercial or not. We need to avoid confusion about what is directly OpenSimulator - as far as I understand if we don't defend this name then anybody could start using it since we could not subsequently protect it as a trademark. I don't think there's any issue with using OpenSimulator in any support text. I don't think that the comparison with Diaspora really applies. Diaspora are starting from scratch with a set of friends who can create a structure that can easily handle funding. OpenSim has been going for quite a while with a diverse set of developers with different interests where it becomes much harder to retrofit certain kinds of organization. Diaspora are operating in a space with huge interest. Virtual worlds/environments, though there obviously are passionate people involved (not least on this list) are very much less popular. Diaspora, as Michael mentioned, are tackling a fairly well-defined problem, albeit in an innovative way. Virtual environments servers, on the other hand, don't really solve a problem in themselves but provide a platform for doing lots of other diverse and interesting things, which I feel makes incorporating all these interests in a funded environment much harder. Moreover, money brings with it organizational overhead. You've already mentioned the need for independent observers/accountants and attorneys. And when one starts employing developers directly the question becomes who sets their agenda and who decides who is employed. This is why direct employment and bounties tend to be easier (though I'm not a great fan of bounties). In fact, if there really is money and interest out there, one thing that I would suggest is setting up a downstream distribution project of OpenSim, much like the Diva distribution. In miniature, this is like Debian's (or other Linux distro's) relationship with Linux. That way, there wouldn't be the high difficulty of trying to change an existing developer-oriented culture - instead the distro could start off with whatever structure and philosophy it pleased. It could still fundraise and contribute changes/features back to OpenSim but at the same time it could do stuff which is always going to be hard in OpenSimulator itself (such as incorporate certain library content by default or add on web admin code). On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Michael Cerquoni nebadon2...@gmail.com mailto:nebadon2...@gmail.com wrote: One of the problems with OpenSimulator project doing this, is it is not an established company. There is no central office or managers for this project. That aside if you wanted to try to raise funds to hire programmers who will submit their code you could certainly do that, you do not need OpenSimulator project to do this for you. You could also ask some of the OpenSim developers directly if they are interested in working for bounty if you can raise the funds. Another problem right now is most of the developers are way to busy to organize fund raising events, and from my experience Money doesnt always solve problems, and can tend to complicate things to the point they never actually get done, because once the funds run out work just flat out stops and is very difficult to get going again. One thing you do not mention is what you would like to see finished or what you feel is missing or incomplete. OpenSimulator is a very open ended project and will likely always be morphing and changing, there will likely never be an end to its development, unlike a facebook website which has very limited purpose to its goals. I am going to assume you mean Second Life compatibility, this is really just
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
In my opinion, if someone funds open source development on OpenSimulator, they can say they are funding OpenSimulator development. I did EXCLUDE uses of the name to describe or promote/endorse anything else. Melanie Justin Clark-Casey wrote: On 08/07/10 22:20, Drew Hart wrote: I will contact you offlist Wordfromthe Wise. And what was said makes sense. I guess my only concern, and I am serious about doing some serious fundraising, is the use of the name Open Simulator. I guess if I raised money and laid out my position, that I am an independent third party interested in hiring coders to contribute to OpenSim, that should make using the name okay (people would know I am not officially conected)? Also, we would need some independent observer/accountant to make sure everything is cool and the money spent wisely, but I know several that would volunteer their time to do that (attorneys/accountants). So if anyone else wants to work on fundraising, etc., contact me at dreweh...@gmail.com mailto:dreweh...@gmail.com. Or if anyone has other ideas on how non-programmers can help the code move along, I am open to anything. Even if some of the experts want to hold some training sessions so we can learn coding - though I am not sure if that is practicable. Thanks, Sorry to start off heavy, but please could you not use the name OpenSimulator as part of any external project name. I have to disagree with Melanie about this - I think that this has to apply to all projects whether commercial or not. We need to avoid confusion about what is directly OpenSimulator - as far as I understand if we don't defend this name then anybody could start using it since we could not subsequently protect it as a trademark. I don't think there's any issue with using OpenSimulator in any support text. I don't think that the comparison with Diaspora really applies. Diaspora are starting from scratch with a set of friends who can create a structure that can easily handle funding. OpenSim has been going for quite a while with a diverse set of developers with different interests where it becomes much harder to retrofit certain kinds of organization. Diaspora are operating in a space with huge interest. Virtual worlds/environments, though there obviously are passionate people involved (not least on this list) are very much less popular. Diaspora, as Michael mentioned, are tackling a fairly well-defined problem, albeit in an innovative way. Virtual environments servers, on the other hand, don't really solve a problem in themselves but provide a platform for doing lots of other diverse and interesting things, which I feel makes incorporating all these interests in a funded environment much harder. Moreover, money brings with it organizational overhead. You've already mentioned the need for independent observers/accountants and attorneys. And when one starts employing developers directly the question becomes who sets their agenda and who decides who is employed. This is why direct employment and bounties tend to be easier (though I'm not a great fan of bounties). In fact, if there really is money and interest out there, one thing that I would suggest is setting up a downstream distribution project of OpenSim, much like the Diva distribution. In miniature, this is like Debian's (or other Linux distro's) relationship with Linux. That way, there wouldn't be the high difficulty of trying to change an existing developer-oriented culture - instead the distro could start off with whatever structure and philosophy it pleased. It could still fundraise and contribute changes/features back to OpenSim but at the same time it could do stuff which is always going to be hard in OpenSimulator itself (such as incorporate certain library content by default or add on web admin code). On Thu, Jul 8, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Michael Cerquoni nebadon2...@gmail.com mailto:nebadon2...@gmail.com wrote: One of the problems with OpenSimulator project doing this, is it is not an established company. There is no central office or managers for this project. That aside if you wanted to try to raise funds to hire programmers who will submit their code you could certainly do that, you do not need OpenSimulator project to do this for you. You could also ask some of the OpenSim developers directly if they are interested in working for bounty if you can raise the funds. Another problem right now is most of the developers are way to busy to organize fund raising events, and from my experience Money doesnt always solve problems, and can tend to complicate things to the point they never actually get done, because once the funds run out work just flat out stops and is very difficult to get going again. One thing you do not mention is what you would like to see finished or what you
Re: [Opensim-dev] OpenSim - What's Taking so long
On 08/07/10 23:56, Melanie wrote: In my opinion, if someone funds open source development on OpenSimulator, they can say they are funding OpenSimulator development. I did EXCLUDE uses of the name to describe or promote/endorse anything else. Sorry yes, on re-reading your post I suspect that we don't actually disagree. I think it's absolutely fine for someone to say that they're funding OpenSimulator development (if they are). I think it's a different matter if they were to incorporate the OpenSimulator name directly into the name of another project (e.g. OpenSimulator Fundraising Project). It's not impossible but I feel that there should be explicit core group agreement for that kind of thing if we want to defend the name. -- Justin Clark-Casey (justincc) http://justincc.org http://twitter.com/justincc ___ Opensim-dev mailing list Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
