[OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
Agreed. While I'm not a regular WW user these days due to circumstances beyond my control (and I use Velocity with WW rather that JSP anyway), I still try to keep abreast of WW's progress. From what I've read of this debate, one thing is readily apparent. The existing property tag is *not* intuitive. To quote an earlier comment from Mike: Well, I actually wrote the original two uses of the PropertyTag (which you are correct - is in fact 3, would you believe I didn't know about the third one? ;)) Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that Mike uses WW extensively, and has been doing so for quite some time. If even he didn't know all the subtleties of that tag, what chance does a newbie have? Documentation alone isn't the best solution - docs plus intuitive design is. Has anyone here ever tried to use all the various permutations of the struts html:select tag for iteration? There is a lot of documentation for that tag, and I've been using it for quite some time now. But almost without fail I still have to either cut'n'paste existing code, or refer to the documentation to get the damn thing working each and every time! I haven't looked at the replacement tags Anders has submitted so I can't comment on whether those are 'better' or not, but I would encourage everyone in this debate to think about what the taglib should look like in a perfect world, ie *without regard for what currently exists*. THAT should then become the goal for XWork 2.0. Obviously backwards compatibility is crucial, but deprecation can take care of that if need be. Chris Jason Carreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:CD44D03584C7A249A3F86891B24EB8EA03FDCAB9;ehost003.intermedia.net... Yeah, not like the current ever-so-transparent ww:property tag that everyone just understands without any explanation. -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:hani;formicary.net] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
It's a different approach I suppose. I didn't know of the TWO uses of the propertytag, let alone the 3 uses. I'm not angry or irritated at anyone because of it, in fact, I was rather delighted when I found out the other uses. I'm glad they're documented now. Most of all however, I like the fact that I was able to use propertytag without reading any docs. I like the fact that I was using the valuestack without even understanding what it is, or how and why it's working its magic. Maybe adding more tags will make that easier, it just doesn't feel that way though based on all the discussion here. Quoting Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Agreed. While I'm not a regular WW user these days due to circumstances beyond my control (and I use Velocity with WW rather that JSP anyway), I still try to keep abreast of WW's progress. From what I've read of this debate, one thing is readily apparent. The existing property tag is *not* intuitive. To quote an earlier comment from Mike: Well, I actually wrote the original two uses of the PropertyTag (which you are correct - is in fact 3, would you believe I didn't know about the third one? ;)) Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that Mike uses WW extensively, and has been doing so for quite some time. If even he didn't know all the subtleties of that tag, what chance does a newbie have? Documentation alone isn't the best solution - docs plus intuitive design is. Has anyone here ever tried to use all the various permutations of the struts html:select tag for iteration? There is a lot of documentation for that tag, and I've been using it for quite some time now. But almost without fail I still have to either cut'n'paste existing code, or refer to the documentation to get the damn thing working each and every time! I haven't looked at the replacement tags Anders has submitted so I can't comment on whether those are 'better' or not, but I would encourage everyone in this debate to think about what the taglib should look like in a perfect world, ie *without regard for what currently exists*. THAT should then become the goal for XWork 2.0. Obviously backwards compatibility is crucial, but deprecation can take care of that if need be. Chris Jason Carreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:CD44D03584C7A249A3F86891B24EB8EA03FDCAB9;ehost003.intermedia.net... Yeah, not like the current ever-so-transparent ww:property tag that everyone just understands without any explanation. -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:hani;formicary.net] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
Honestly, I'm with Chris here. Hani, you have no right to vote something down if you don't even know the issues involved. None what-so-ever. Hani, you also said: Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. Umm.. wasn't the solution to this whole thing to write _more_ docs? I'm sorry, but on this issue I really think that you, Maurice, and Rickard are way off base here. You might not like Anders for the changes he made without asking, but this this stubbornness is pretty sickening. -Pat - Original Message - From: Hani Suleiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) It's a different approach I suppose. I didn't know of the TWO uses of the propertytag, let alone the 3 uses. I'm not angry or irritated at anyone because of it, in fact, I was rather delighted when I found out the other uses. I'm glad they're documented now. Most of all however, I like the fact that I was able to use propertytag without reading any docs. I like the fact that I was using the valuestack without even understanding what it is, or how and why it's working its magic. Maybe adding more tags will make that easier, it just doesn't feel that way though based on all the discussion here. Quoting Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Agreed. While I'm not a regular WW user these days due to circumstances beyond my control (and I use Velocity with WW rather that JSP anyway), I still try to keep abreast of WW's progress. From what I've read of this debate, one thing is readily apparent. The existing property tag is *not* intuitive. To quote an earlier comment from Mike: Well, I actually wrote the original two uses of the PropertyTag (which you are correct - is in fact 3, would you believe I didn't know about the third one? ;)) Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that Mike uses WW extensively, and has been doing so for quite some time. If even he didn't know all the subtleties of that tag, what chance does a newbie have? Documentation alone isn't the best solution - docs plus intuitive design is. Has anyone here ever tried to use all the various permutations of the struts html:select tag for iteration? There is a lot of documentation for that tag, and I've been using it for quite some time now. But almost without fail I still have to either cut'n'paste existing code, or refer to the documentation to get the damn thing working each and every time! I haven't looked at the replacement tags Anders has submitted so I can't comment on whether those are 'better' or not, but I would encourage everyone in this debate to think about what the taglib should look like in a perfect world, ie *without regard for what currently exists*. THAT should then become the goal for XWork 2.0. Obviously backwards compatibility is crucial, but deprecation can take care of that if need be. Chris Jason Carreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:CD44D03584C7A249A3F86891B24EB8EA03FDCAB9;ehost003.intermedia.net... Yeah, not like the current ever-so-transparent ww:property tag that everyone just understands without any explanation. -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:hani;formicary.net] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
Oh, and everyone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe this how the votes stack up (and of course, most of the +1 crew doesn't really have real voting power, but I think it's still important to remember). Also, I've put stars next to regular contributors, so we can see who does have voting power. As you can see, it's a tie. With the rest of the votes going towards making this _addition_ (not change, since nothing is being removed), shouldn't the vote swing in the +1 favor? I ask this because I'm still working on the OpenSymphony guidelines doc and this is a good example of where we can squash the issue for good by just following the procedures. Is there anything flawed with the voting count above? If the outcome does not satisfy you, please let me know how the rules would need to change so that it does, and I'll modify those rules in the document I'm writing. Chris +1 *Pat +1 Anders +1 Joe +1 *Erik +1 Francisco +1 Hai +1 Wayland +1 Vedovato +1 Jason +1 Mike 0 (-1?) *Rickard -1 *Maurice -1 Bruce -1 Hani -1 - Original Message - From: Hani Suleiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) It's a different approach I suppose. I didn't know of the TWO uses of the propertytag, let alone the 3 uses. I'm not angry or irritated at anyone because of it, in fact, I was rather delighted when I found out the other uses. I'm glad they're documented now. Most of all however, I like the fact that I was able to use propertytag without reading any docs. I like the fact that I was using the valuestack without even understanding what it is, or how and why it's working its magic. Maybe adding more tags will make that easier, it just doesn't feel that way though based on all the discussion here. Quoting Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Agreed. While I'm not a regular WW user these days due to circumstances beyond my control (and I use Velocity with WW rather that JSP anyway), I still try to keep abreast of WW's progress. From what I've read of this debate, one thing is readily apparent. The existing property tag is *not* intuitive. To quote an earlier comment from Mike: Well, I actually wrote the original two uses of the PropertyTag (which you are correct - is in fact 3, would you believe I didn't know about the third one? ;)) Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that Mike uses WW extensively, and has been doing so for quite some time. If even he didn't know all the subtleties of that tag, what chance does a newbie have? Documentation alone isn't the best solution - docs plus intuitive design is. Has anyone here ever tried to use all the various permutations of the struts html:select tag for iteration? There is a lot of documentation for that tag, and I've been using it for quite some time now. But almost without fail I still have to either cut'n'paste existing code, or refer to the documentation to get the damn thing working each and every time! I haven't looked at the replacement tags Anders has submitted so I can't comment on whether those are 'better' or not, but I would encourage everyone in this debate to think about what the taglib should look like in a perfect world, ie *without regard for what currently exists*. THAT should then become the goal for XWork 2.0. Obviously backwards compatibility is crucial, but deprecation can take care of that if need be. Chris Jason Carreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:CD44D03584C7A249A3F86891B24EB8EA03FDCAB9;ehost003.intermedia.net... Yeah, not like the current ever-so-transparent ww:property tag that everyone just understands without any explanation. -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:hani;formicary.net] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
Alright, following your ranting and raving on IRC, I'd like to know what the 'official' stance is regarding expressing opinions. I'll admit that my contribution to webwork has been minimal (but not zero). So, does this mean that I am not allowed to express opinions? That'd be fine by me, I'd just like to know if I'm playing fair by expressing disagreement with people who have the time to work on webwork. If committers are allowed to express opinions but you find me expressing mine to be so distasteful, then feel free to remove my commit access and ensuring that non-committers who disagree with you are properly admonished. Quoting Patrick Lightbody [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Honestly, I'm with Chris here. Hani, you have no right to vote something down if you don't even know the issues involved. None what-so-ever. Hani, you also said: Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. Umm.. wasn't the solution to this whole thing to write _more_ docs? I'm sorry, but on this issue I really think that you, Maurice, and Rickard are way off base here. You might not like Anders for the changes he made without asking, but this this stubbornness is pretty sickening. -Pat - Original Message - From: Hani Suleiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) It's a different approach I suppose. I didn't know of the TWO uses of the propertytag, let alone the 3 uses. I'm not angry or irritated at anyone because of it, in fact, I was rather delighted when I found out the other uses. I'm glad they're documented now. Most of all however, I like the fact that I was able to use propertytag without reading any docs. I like the fact that I was using the valuestack without even understanding what it is, or how and why it's working its magic. Maybe adding more tags will make that easier, it just doesn't feel that way though based on all the discussion here. Quoting Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Agreed. While I'm not a regular WW user these days due to circumstances beyond my control (and I use Velocity with WW rather that JSP anyway), I still try to keep abreast of WW's progress. From what I've read of this debate, one thing is readily apparent. The existing property tag is *not* intuitive. To quote an earlier comment from Mike: Well, I actually wrote the original two uses of the PropertyTag (which you are correct - is in fact 3, would you believe I didn't know about the third one? ;)) Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that Mike uses WW extensively, and has been doing so for quite some time. If even he didn't know all the subtleties of that tag, what chance does a newbie have? Documentation alone isn't the best solution - docs plus intuitive design is. Has anyone here ever tried to use all the various permutations of the struts html:select tag for iteration? There is a lot of documentation for that tag, and I've been using it for quite some time now. But almost without fail I still have to either cut'n'paste existing code, or refer to the documentation to get the damn thing working each and every time! I haven't looked at the replacement tags Anders has submitted so I can't comment on whether those are 'better' or not, but I would encourage everyone in this debate to think about what the taglib should look like in a perfect world, ie *without regard for what currently exists*. THAT should then become the goal for XWork 2.0. Obviously backwards compatibility is crucial, but deprecation can take care of that if need be. Chris Jason Carreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:CD44D03584C7A249A3F86891B24EB8EA03FDCAB9;ehost003.intermedia.net... Yeah, not like the current ever-so-transparent ww:property tag that everyone just understands without any explanation. -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:hani;formicary.net] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
Patrick Lightbody wrote: You might not like Anders for the changes he made without asking, but this this stubbornness is pretty sickening. Patrick, this is nothing personal. This is a logistical decision. 1) Changing the behavior of the PropertyTag hurts our userbase. 2) Adding addional tags makes the PropertyTag (and the taglibs as a whole) more confusing, not less. It's not about being stubborn. It's about making decisions based on facts and analysis rather than emotionally charged debate. If you want me to change my position on this matter, you have to convince me that a change is for the greater benifit of the community. As it stands right now, I believe that the proposed change would in fact have the opposite effect. -Maurice -Pat - Original Message - From: Hani Suleiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) It's a different approach I suppose. I didn't know of the TWO uses of the propertytag, let alone the 3 uses. I'm not angry or irritated at anyone because of it, in fact, I was rather delighted when I found out the other uses. I'm glad they're documented now. Most of all however, I like the fact that I was able to use propertytag without reading any docs. I like the fact that I was using the valuestack without even understanding what it is, or how and why it's working its magic. Maybe adding more tags will make that easier, it just doesn't feel that way though based on all the discussion here. Quoting Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Agreed. While I'm not a regular WW user these days due to circumstances beyond my control (and I use Velocity with WW rather that JSP anyway), I still try to keep abreast of WW's progress. From what I've read of this debate, one thing is readily apparent. The existing property tag is *not* intuitive. To quote an earlier comment from Mike: Well, I actually wrote the original two uses of the PropertyTag (which you are correct - is in fact 3, would you believe I didn't know about the third one? ;)) Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that Mike uses WW extensively, and has been doing so for quite some time. If even he didn't know all the subtleties of that tag, what chance does a newbie have? Documentation alone isn't the best solution - docs plus intuitive design is. Has anyone here ever tried to use all the various permutations of the struts html:select tag for iteration? There is a lot of documentation for that tag, and I've been using it for quite some time now. But almost without fail I still have to either cut'n'paste existing code, or refer to the documentation to get the damn thing working each and every time! I haven't looked at the replacement tags Anders has submitted so I can't comment on whether those are 'better' or not, but I would encourage everyone in this debate to think about what the taglib should look like in a perfect world, ie *without regard for what currently exists*. THAT should then become the goal for XWork 2.0. Obviously backwards compatibility is crucial, but deprecation can take care of that if need be. Chris Jason Carreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:CD44D03584C7A249A3F86891B24EB8EA03FDCAB9;ehost003.intermedia.net... Yeah, not like the current ever-so-transparent ww:property tag that everyone just understands without any explanation. -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:hani;formicary.net] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
Well, I'm not sure if my vote counts, but I'm certainly +1. - Original Message - From: Patrick Lightbody [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 12:44 PM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Oh, and everyone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe this how the votes stack up (and of course, most of the +1 crew doesn't really have real voting power, but I think it's still important to remember). Also, I've put stars next to regular contributors, so we can see who does have voting power. As you can see, it's a tie. With the rest of the votes going towards making this _addition_ (not change, since nothing is being removed), shouldn't the vote swing in the +1 favor? I ask this because I'm still working on the OpenSymphony guidelines doc and this is a good example of where we can squash the issue for good by just following the procedures. Is there anything flawed with the voting count above? If the outcome does not satisfy you, please let me know how the rules would need to change so that it does, and I'll modify those rules in the document I'm writing. Chris +1 *Pat +1 Anders +1 Joe +1 *Erik +1 Francisco +1 Hai +1 Wayland +1 Vedovato +1 Jason +1 Mike 0 (-1?) *Rickard -1 *Maurice -1 Bruce -1 Hani -1 - Original Message - From: Hani Suleiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) It's a different approach I suppose. I didn't know of the TWO uses of the propertytag, let alone the 3 uses. I'm not angry or irritated at anyone because of it, in fact, I was rather delighted when I found out the other uses. I'm glad they're documented now. Most of all however, I like the fact that I was able to use propertytag without reading any docs. I like the fact that I was using the valuestack without even understanding what it is, or how and why it's working its magic. Maybe adding more tags will make that easier, it just doesn't feel that way though based on all the discussion here. Quoting Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Agreed. While I'm not a regular WW user these days due to circumstances beyond my control (and I use Velocity with WW rather that JSP anyway), I still try to keep abreast of WW's progress. From what I've read of this debate, one thing is readily apparent. The existing property tag is *not* intuitive. To quote an earlier comment from Mike: Well, I actually wrote the original two uses of the PropertyTag (which you are correct - is in fact 3, would you believe I didn't know about the third one? ;)) Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that Mike uses WW extensively, and has been doing so for quite some time. If even he didn't know all the subtleties of that tag, what chance does a newbie have? Documentation alone isn't the best solution - docs plus intuitive design is. Has anyone here ever tried to use all the various permutations of the struts html:select tag for iteration? There is a lot of documentation for that tag, and I've been using it for quite some time now. But almost without fail I still have to either cut'n'paste existing code, or refer to the documentation to get the damn thing working each and every time! I haven't looked at the replacement tags Anders has submitted so I can't comment on whether those are 'better' or not, but I would encourage everyone in this debate to think about what the taglib should look like in a perfect world, ie *without regard for what currently exists*. THAT should then become the goal for XWork 2.0. Obviously backwards compatibility is crucial, but deprecation can take care of that if need be. Chris Jason Carreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:CD44D03584C7A249A3F86891B24EB8EA03FDCAB9;ehost003.intermedia.net... Yeah, not like the current ever-so-transparent ww:property tag that everyone just understands without any explanation. -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:hani;formicary.net] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
I have no doubt you believe you are doing something best for the community, but look at the vote count. They ARE the community. -Pat - Original Message - From: Maurice Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Patrick Lightbody wrote: You might not like Anders for the changes he made without asking, but this this stubbornness is pretty sickening. Patrick, this is nothing personal. This is a logistical decision. 1) Changing the behavior of the PropertyTag hurts our userbase. 2) Adding addional tags makes the PropertyTag (and the taglibs as a whole) more confusing, not less. It's not about being stubborn. It's about making decisions based on facts and analysis rather than emotionally charged debate. If you want me to change my position on this matter, you have to convince me that a change is for the greater benifit of the community. As it stands right now, I believe that the proposed change would in fact have the opposite effect. -Maurice -Pat - Original Message - From: Hani Suleiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) It's a different approach I suppose. I didn't know of the TWO uses of the propertytag, let alone the 3 uses. I'm not angry or irritated at anyone because of it, in fact, I was rather delighted when I found out the other uses. I'm glad they're documented now. Most of all however, I like the fact that I was able to use propertytag without reading any docs. I like the fact that I was using the valuestack without even understanding what it is, or how and why it's working its magic. Maybe adding more tags will make that easier, it just doesn't feel that way though based on all the discussion here. Quoting Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Agreed. While I'm not a regular WW user these days due to circumstances beyond my control (and I use Velocity with WW rather that JSP anyway), I still try to keep abreast of WW's progress. From what I've read of this debate, one thing is readily apparent. The existing property tag is *not* intuitive. To quote an earlier comment from Mike: Well, I actually wrote the original two uses of the PropertyTag (which you are correct - is in fact 3, would you believe I didn't know about the third one? ;)) Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that Mike uses WW extensively, and has been doing so for quite some time. If even he didn't know all the subtleties of that tag, what chance does a newbie have? Documentation alone isn't the best solution - docs plus intuitive design is. Has anyone here ever tried to use all the various permutations of the struts html:select tag for iteration? There is a lot of documentation for that tag, and I've been using it for quite some time now. But almost without fail I still have to either cut'n'paste existing code, or refer to the documentation to get the damn thing working each and every time! I haven't looked at the replacement tags Anders has submitted so I can't comment on whether those are 'better' or not, but I would encourage everyone in this debate to think about what the taglib should look like in a perfect world, ie *without regard for what currently exists*. THAT should then become the goal for XWork 2.0. Obviously backwards compatibility is crucial, but deprecation can take care of that if need be. Chris Jason Carreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:CD44D03584C7A249A3F86891B24EB8EA03FDCAB9;ehost003.intermedia.net... Yeah, not like the current ever-so-transparent ww:property tag that everyone just understands without any explanation. -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:hani;formicary.net] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
RE: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
I think this type of break with the past is exactly what Xwork 2.0 SHOULD be for. Leave the property tag in there, but mark it as deprecated with links to the new, much more intuitive tags (although I don't think we need separate push and pop tags, just the ww:context). If we can't ever change anything, then how will Xwork ever improve? -Original Message- From: Maurice Parker [mailto:maurice.parker;pmic.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:04 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Patrick Lightbody wrote: You might not like Anders for the changes he made without asking, but this this stubbornness is pretty sickening. Patrick, this is nothing personal. This is a logistical decision. 1) Changing the behavior of the PropertyTag hurts our userbase. 2) Adding addional tags makes the PropertyTag (and the taglibs as a whole) more confusing, not less. It's not about being stubborn. It's about making decisions based on facts and analysis rather than emotionally charged debate. If you want me to change my position on this matter, you have to convince me that a change is for the greater benifit of the community. As it stands right now, I believe that the proposed change would in fact have the opposite effect. -Maurice -Pat - Original Message - From: Hani Suleiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) It's a different approach I suppose. I didn't know of the TWO uses of the propertytag, let alone the 3 uses. I'm not angry or irritated at anyone because of it, in fact, I was rather delighted when I found out the other uses. I'm glad they're documented now. Most of all however, I like the fact that I was able to use propertytag without reading any docs. I like the fact that I was using the valuestack without even understanding what it is, or how and why it's working its magic. Maybe adding more tags will make that easier, it just doesn't feel that way though based on all the discussion here. Quoting Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Agreed. While I'm not a regular WW user these days due to circumstances beyond my control (and I use Velocity with WW rather that JSP anyway), I still try to keep abreast of WW's progress. From what I've read of this debate, one thing is readily apparent. The existing property tag is *not* intuitive. To quote an earlier comment from Mike: Well, I actually wrote the original two uses of the PropertyTag (which you are correct - is in fact 3, would you believe I didn't know about the third one? ;)) Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that Mike uses WW extensively, and has been doing so for quite some time. If even he didn't know all the subtleties of that tag, what chance does a newbie have? Documentation alone isn't the best solution - docs plus intuitive design is. Has anyone here ever tried to use all the various permutations of the struts html:select tag for iteration? There is a lot of documentation for that tag, and I've been using it for quite some time now. But almost without fail I still have to either cut'n'paste existing code, or refer to the documentation to get the damn thing working each and every time! I haven't looked at the replacement tags Anders has submitted so I can't comment on whether those are 'better' or not, but I would encourage everyone in this debate to think about what the taglib should look like in a perfect world, ie *without regard for what currently exists*. THAT should then become the goal for XWork 2.0. Obviously backwards compatibility is crucial, but deprecation can take care of that if need be. Chris Jason Carreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:CD44D03584C7A249A3F86891B24EB8EA03FDCAB9;ehost003.intermedia.net ... Yeah, not like the current ever-so-transparent ww:property tag that everyone just understands without any explanation. -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:hani;formicary.net] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
1) Changing the behavior of the PropertyTag hurts our userbase. No examples given. Thus an unfounded opinion with no base in logic. 2) Adding addional tags makes the PropertyTag (and the taglibs as a whole) more confusing, not less. Adding tags that are simple and straight forwards makes PropertyTag more confusing. You are totally correct on this. But why? Because it makes it abundantly clear how extremely confusing, complicated and bloated property tag is. Of course it looks confusing when it stands next to simple tags! If you want me to change my position on this matter, you have to convince me that a change is for the greater benifit of the community. As it stands right now, I believe that the proposed change would in fact have the opposite effect. Yet the community is what wants this ADDITION, not change (see pats tally). That it's an addition and not a change is very relevant and you keep using change in what looks like a demonization-attempt. // Anders Hovmöller --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
Jason Carreira wrote: I think this type of break with the past is exactly what Xwork 2.0 SHOULD be for. Leave the property tag in there, but mark it as deprecated with links to the new, much more intuitive tags (although I don't think we need separate push and pop tags, just the ww:context). If we can't ever change anything, then how will Xwork ever improve? Change is ok. Unmotivated change is not ok. It is not about having the most votes (I personally don't really like this counting business), it's about having the best arguments. Good arguments lead to better decisions, which will be better for the community. This is what Maurice is saying, and I agree. /Rickard --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
Funny you should say that. Interesting that Erik (with 2 patches) counts as a developer whereas I (with 3 ot more patches) do not. Epesh also didn't give a +1, yet you felt free to assume he did. Anyways, you win. I give up. Feel free to turn webwork into whatever, it's not worth arguing. Mob rule is as good a mechanism for product development as any, it seems. Quoting Patrick Lightbody [EMAIL PROTECTED]: By all means, have a recount! All I'm saying is that the community has spoken (this is the best feel we can get for the community, so don't spout off about how the list isn't representative -- it has to be). You might like to operate under the pretense of making a well thought out decision, but at the end of the day, the majority wants to see this feature. And what a simple, non-relevant feature at that. I'm just pushing the issue because I want to see if WebWork will listen to people, of if those in charge are just going to be doing what they please no matter what everyone else asks of them. -Pat - Original Message - From: Hani Suleiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Alright, following your ranting and raving on IRC, I'd like to know what the 'official' stance is regarding expressing opinions. I'll admit that my contribution to webwork has been minimal (but not zero). So, does this mean that I am not allowed to express opinions? That'd be fine by me, I'd just like to know if I'm playing fair by expressing disagreement with people who have the time to work on webwork. If committers are allowed to express opinions but you find me expressing mine to be so distasteful, then feel free to remove my commit access and ensuring that non-committers who disagree with you are properly admonished. Quoting Patrick Lightbody [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Honestly, I'm with Chris here. Hani, you have no right to vote something down if you don't even know the issues involved. None what-so-ever. Hani, you also said: Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. Umm.. wasn't the solution to this whole thing to write _more_ docs? I'm sorry, but on this issue I really think that you, Maurice, and Rickard are way off base here. You might not like Anders for the changes he made without asking, but this this stubbornness is pretty sickening. -Pat - Original Message - From: Hani Suleiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) It's a different approach I suppose. I didn't know of the TWO uses of the propertytag, let alone the 3 uses. I'm not angry or irritated at anyone because of it, in fact, I was rather delighted when I found out the other uses. I'm glad they're documented now. Most of all however, I like the fact that I was able to use propertytag without reading any docs. I like the fact that I was using the valuestack without even understanding what it is, or how and why it's working its magic. Maybe adding more tags will make that easier, it just doesn't feel that way though based on all the discussion here. Quoting Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Agreed. While I'm not a regular WW user these days due to circumstances beyond my control (and I use Velocity with WW rather that JSP anyway), I still try to keep abreast of WW's progress. From what I've read of this debate, one thing is readily apparent. The existing property tag is *not* intuitive. To quote an earlier comment from Mike: Well, I actually wrote the original two uses of the PropertyTag (which you are correct - is in fact 3, would you believe I didn't know about the third one? ;)) Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that Mike uses WW extensively, and has been doing so for quite some time. If even he didn't know all the subtleties of that tag, what chance does a newbie have? Documentation alone isn't the best solution - docs plus intuitive design is. Has anyone here ever tried to use all the various permutations of the struts html:select tag for iteration? There is a lot of documentation for that tag, and I've been using it for quite some time now. But almost without fail I still have to either cut'n'paste existing code, or refer to the documentation to get the damn thing working each and every time! I haven't looked at the replacement tags Anders has submitted so I can't comment on whether those are 'better' or not, but I would encourage everyone in this debate to think about what the taglib
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
Let's be specific: I emphastically agreed with revising the property tag, but refrained from voting either way (abstaining!) because I'm resigning from opensymphony as a whole. For why (in case you're not on the opensymphony-developers list), see http://enigmastation.com/Q702 . - Joseph B. Ottinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://enigmastation.comIT Consultant On Mon, 11 Nov 2002, Hani Suleiman wrote: Funny you should say that. Interesting that Erik (with 2 patches) counts as a developer whereas I (with 3 ot more patches) do not. Epesh also didn't give a +1, yet you felt free to assume he did. Anyways, you win. I give up. Feel free to turn webwork into whatever, it's not worth arguing. Mob rule is as good a mechanism for product development as any, it seems. Quoting Patrick Lightbody [EMAIL PROTECTED]: By all means, have a recount! All I'm saying is that the community has spoken (this is the best feel we can get for the community, so don't spout off about how the list isn't representative -- it has to be). You might like to operate under the pretense of making a well thought out decision, but at the end of the day, the majority wants to see this feature. And what a simple, non-relevant feature at that. I'm just pushing the issue because I want to see if WebWork will listen to people, of if those in charge are just going to be doing what they please no matter what everyone else asks of them. -Pat - Original Message - From: Hani Suleiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Alright, following your ranting and raving on IRC, I'd like to know what the 'official' stance is regarding expressing opinions. I'll admit that my contribution to webwork has been minimal (but not zero). So, does this mean that I am not allowed to express opinions? That'd be fine by me, I'd just like to know if I'm playing fair by expressing disagreement with people who have the time to work on webwork. If committers are allowed to express opinions but you find me expressing mine to be so distasteful, then feel free to remove my commit access and ensuring that non-committers who disagree with you are properly admonished. Quoting Patrick Lightbody [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Honestly, I'm with Chris here. Hani, you have no right to vote something down if you don't even know the issues involved. None what-so-ever. Hani, you also said: Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs. Umm.. wasn't the solution to this whole thing to write _more_ docs? I'm sorry, but on this issue I really think that you, Maurice, and Rickard are way off base here. You might not like Anders for the changes he made without asking, but this this stubbornness is pretty sickening. -Pat - Original Message - From: Hani Suleiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) It's a different approach I suppose. I didn't know of the TWO uses of the propertytag, let alone the 3 uses. I'm not angry or irritated at anyone because of it, in fact, I was rather delighted when I found out the other uses. I'm glad they're documented now. Most of all however, I like the fact that I was able to use propertytag without reading any docs. I like the fact that I was using the valuestack without even understanding what it is, or how and why it's working its magic. Maybe adding more tags will make that easier, it just doesn't feel that way though based on all the discussion here. Quoting Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Agreed. While I'm not a regular WW user these days due to circumstances beyond my control (and I use Velocity with WW rather that JSP anyway), I still try to keep abreast of WW's progress. From what I've read of this debate, one thing is readily apparent. The existing property tag is *not* intuitive. To quote an earlier comment from Mike: Well, I actually wrote the original two uses of the PropertyTag (which you are correct - is in fact 3, would you believe I didn't know about the third one? ;)) Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that Mike uses WW extensively, and has been doing so for quite some time. If even he didn't know all the subtleties of that tag, what chance does a newbie have? Documentation alone isn't the best solution - docs plus intuitive design is. Has anyone
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
boxed wrote: 1) Changing the behavior of the PropertyTag hurts our userbase. No examples given. Thus an unfounded opinion with no base in logic. I am a WebWork user. I use the PropertyTag. Changing the behaviour of the PropertyTag hurts me. Better? 2) Adding addional tags makes the PropertyTag (and the taglibs as a whole) more confusing, not less. Adding tags that are simple and straight forwards makes PropertyTag more confusing. You are totally correct on this. But why? Because it makes it abundantly clear how extremely confusing, complicated and bloated property tag is. Of course it looks confusing when it stands next to simple tags! Most of thr above is a matter of opinion, in this case yours. However, the main problem is that if we have two radically different ways to do the same thing, it WILL be confusing. This has nothing to do with the specifics of these tags, really. If you want me to change my position on this matter, you have to convince me that a change is for the greater benifit of the community. As it stands right now, I believe that the proposed change would in fact have the opposite effect. Yet the community is what wants this ADDITION, not change (see pats tally). That it's an addition and not a change is very relevant and you keep using change in what looks like a demonization-attempt. That is a little twisted logic, since the INTENT of the ADDITION is to eventually CHANGE WebWork. The important issue is whether this change is better or not than the current way. I can kind of see the point of some of the proposed tags, but definitely not all of them. Less is more, even though having only PropertyTag may be a little too extreme. /Rickard --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
So the argument that a tag named property is less intuitive than two tags named push and print is a bad one? -Pat - Original Message - From: Rickard Öberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 10:31 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Jason Carreira wrote: I think this type of break with the past is exactly what Xwork 2.0 SHOULD be for. Leave the property tag in there, but mark it as deprecated with links to the new, much more intuitive tags (although I don't think we need separate push and pop tags, just the ww:context). If we can't ever change anything, then how will Xwork ever improve? Change is ok. Unmotivated change is not ok. It is not about having the most votes (I personally don't really like this counting business), it's about having the best arguments. Good arguments lead to better decisions, which will be better for the community. This is what Maurice is saying, and I agree. /Rickard --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
RE: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
The problem is that the arguments for property tag boil down to That's the way we've always done it. I mean come on, we're not 80 year old grandmothers here. We can and do cope with change on a daily basis, and this one seems like a change that would make the learning curve easier and the code base more straightforward. The property tag is a powerful thing, but perhaps TOO powerful, with too many potential side effects and usages. Better to have several tags with more focused functions which are easily documented and used. -Original Message- From: Rickard Öberg [mailto:rickard;dreambean.com] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 1:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Jason Carreira wrote: I think this type of break with the past is exactly what Xwork 2.0 SHOULD be for. Leave the property tag in there, but mark it as deprecated with links to the new, much more intuitive tags (although I don't think we need separate push and pop tags, just the ww:context). If we can't ever change anything, then how will Xwork ever improve? Change is ok. Unmotivated change is not ok. It is not about having the most votes (I personally don't really like this counting business), it's about having the best arguments. Good arguments lead to better decisions, which will be better for the community. This is what Maurice is saying, and I agree. /Rickard --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
Patrick Lightbody wrote: So the argument that a tag named property is less intuitive than two tags named push and print is a bad one? I wasn't talking about this specific instance, but more in general, in reply to Jason's comment if we can't ever change anything, then how will Xwork ever improve. In this specific case, adding the context makes sense. /Rickard --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
I am a WebWork user. I use the PropertyTag. Changing the behaviour of the PropertyTag hurts me. Better? Likewise for me (except the opposite) :) 2) Adding addional tags makes the PropertyTag (and the taglibs as a whole) more confusing, not less. Adding tags that are simple and straight forwards makes PropertyTag more confusing. You are totally correct on this. But why? Because it makes it abundantly clear how extremely confusing, complicated and bloated property tag is. Of course it looks confusing when it stands next to simple tags! Most of thr above is a matter of opinion, in this case yours. However, the main problem is that if we have two radically different ways to do the same thing, it WILL be confusing. This has nothing to do with the specifics of these tags, really. I wouldn't say they are radically different, just different names with narrowed scope. Attributes, how it works, etc would all be the same. Also, as always, this is a post-1.3 suggestion (at least for me it is). If you want me to change my position on this matter, you have to convince me that a change is for the greater benifit of the community. As it stands right now, I believe that the proposed change would in fact have the opposite effect. Yet the community is what wants this ADDITION, not change (see pats tally). That it's an addition and not a change is very relevant and you keep using change in what looks like a demonization-attempt. That is a little twisted logic, since the INTENT of the ADDITION is to eventually CHANGE WebWork. The important issue is whether this change is better or not than the current way. I can kind of see the point of some of the proposed tags, but definitely not all of them. Less is more, even though having only PropertyTag may be a little too extreme. Back to the point of that nothing should ever change and we should stop development on WebWork (save bug fixes, which I have a few to do, I've been slacking). I'm glad you do at least see some value in the proposal. I indeed see the value in keeping it simple (less tags), but my opinion (back to that word again) is that adding the tags is more important than keeping them out. I'm always for what makes the most sense (to me, of course), and this seems very logical in my mind, but then again, so did adding ui:hidden/. :) -Pat --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
boxed wrote: 1) Changing the behavior of the PropertyTag hurts our userbase. No examples given. Thus an unfounded opinion with no base in logic. I am a WebWork user. I use the PropertyTag. Changing the behaviour of the PropertyTag hurts me. ...and he fell into the trap. We do NOT advocate changing property tag. I even advocated adding the new tags after 1.3 in the beginning, but I've since then been convinced by others that that would be a bit too late. I just answered about what Maurice pointed out. If you feel like setting traps, please do it somewhere else. You had an opinion and I countered by an opinion. Note that none of our arguments are anything but opinions. Not yours, not mine, no matter how much you try to make it sound otherwise. Am I? Oh really. I can kind of see the point of some of the proposed tags, but definitely not all of them. Less is more, even though having only PropertyTag may be a little too extreme. Well yea, push and pop I added just for orthogonality and I thought I heard someone saying they wanted it. I personally don't want them, becase focus does it better. Ok, good. /Rickard --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Opensymphony-webwork mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/opensymphony-webwork
Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse)
Late thoughts -- I think this debate was way overheated. I think this proposed feature change should have been submitted, commented, and voted on via JIRA. This is more constructive approach than e-mail flames. For now, I think Maurice's focus on 1.3 is the best and most time and effort should be spent for this purpose. For people just itching for new features, etc., I think they should prototype them alone, or in a group, or in the sandbox and submit them for inclusion as the features mature. -Matt - Original Message - From: Patrick Lightbody [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Oh, and everyone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe this how the votes stack up (and of course, most of the +1 crew doesn't really have real voting power, but I think it's still important to remember). Also, I've put stars next to regular contributors, so we can see who does have voting power. As you can see, it's a tie. With the rest of the votes going towards making this _addition_ (not change, since nothing is being removed), shouldn't the vote swing in the +1 favor? I ask this because I'm still working on the OpenSymphony guidelines doc and this is a good example of where we can squash the issue for good by just following the procedures. Is there anything flawed with the voting count above? If the outcome does not satisfy you, please let me know how the rules would need to change so that it does, and I'll modify those rules in the document I'm writing. Chris +1 *Pat +1 Anders +1 Joe +1 *Erik +1 Francisco +1 Hai +1 Wayland +1 Vedovato +1 Jason +1 Mike 0 (-1?) *Rickard -1 *Maurice -1 Bruce -1 Hani -1 - Original Message - From: Hani Suleiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 8:01 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Re: Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) It's a different approach I suppose. I didn't know of the TWO uses of the propertytag, let alone the 3 uses. I'm not angry or irritated at anyone because of it, in fact, I was rather delighted when I found out the other uses. I'm glad they're documented now. Most of all however, I like the fact that I was able to use propertytag without reading any docs. I like the fact that I was using the valuestack without even understanding what it is, or how and why it's working its magic. Maybe adding more tags will make that easier, it just doesn't feel that way though based on all the discussion here. Quoting Chris Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Agreed. While I'm not a regular WW user these days due to circumstances beyond my control (and I use Velocity with WW rather that JSP anyway), I still try to keep abreast of WW's progress. From what I've read of this debate, one thing is readily apparent. The existing property tag is *not* intuitive. To quote an earlier comment from Mike: Well, I actually wrote the original two uses of the PropertyTag (which you are correct - is in fact 3, would you believe I didn't know about the third one? ;)) Correct me if I'm wrong but I am sure that Mike uses WW extensively, and has been doing so for quite some time. If even he didn't know all the subtleties of that tag, what chance does a newbie have? Documentation alone isn't the best solution - docs plus intuitive design is. Has anyone here ever tried to use all the various permutations of the struts html:select tag for iteration? There is a lot of documentation for that tag, and I've been using it for quite some time now. But almost without fail I still have to either cut'n'paste existing code, or refer to the documentation to get the damn thing working each and every time! I haven't looked at the replacement tags Anders has submitted so I can't comment on whether those are 'better' or not, but I would encourage everyone in this debate to think about what the taglib should look like in a perfect world, ie *without regard for what currently exists*. THAT should then become the goal for XWork 2.0. Obviously backwards compatibility is crucial, but deprecation can take care of that if need be. Chris Jason Carreira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:CD44D03584C7A249A3F86891B24EB8EA03FDCAB9;ehost003.intermedia.net... Yeah, not like the current ever-so-transparent ww:property tag that everyone just understands without any explanation. -Original Message- From: Hani Suleiman [mailto:hani;formicary.net] Sent: Monday, November 11, 2002 7:34 AM Subject: Re: [OS-webwork] Property tag (beating the decomposed horse) Excellent! A great way of ensuring nobody is able to use webwork without first going through lots of docs
