Re: NBN Petition
On 12 November 2013 17:50, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: (Mind you, this is what is supposed to be in the NBN plan - The NBNCo Corporate Plan contains these examples on page 67: * The 1Gbps AVC price will fall from $150 to $90 (40% decrease) while the average speed increases from 30Mbps to 230Mbps (760% increase) * CVC pricing starts at $20Mbps/month when average data usage is 30GB/month and falls to $8/Mbps/month when average data usage is 540GB/month. Price falls by 2.5 times, while the average data usage grows by 18 times, which means 720% growth in revenue from CVC when accounting for price falls. ) Are you talking about this: http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbnco/documents/nbn-co-corporate-plan-6-aug-2012.pdf ? Page 67 says nothing of the sort. I *think* what they're saying is that they are factoring in the 'no charge until 30001st premise in an area gets installed' as a form of discount, which is pretty rubbery accounting. To put page 67 in laymans terms, the first 150mbps of capacity in the service area (keeping in mind that might be 70,000+ premises) is free. I believe I read in the draft NBN document that they were intending the wholesale price to be $150 per month for a 1Gbps FTTH connection in Australia. So the least deceptive answer is that you could have a 1Gbps connection for $150 per month plus the cost of the ISP service. Nope. $150 of AVC + the ISP Service + CVC. Even if the price of CVC dropped to $8/mbps/month, then that would still be 800% higher than the forecasted cost of getting data from Europe to Australia next year. i.e. 1mbps CIR from overseas to Brisbane = $1, getting it across Brisbane, $8. FAIL. They didn’t broadcast the fact because they assumed that everyone would expect the same behaviour that they are getting from just about every single internet connection in the country at the moment, and that is, you are likely to get speeds of 1Gbps from your ISP and then you’ll share a pipe to the rest of the net with the other customers of the ISP. I have to admit, you're the first advocate for CVC I've ever met. Once explained to most people they are mortified. No one expects the NBN to deliver ANYTHING like what they are getting today ... otherwise they would not advocate for the $ spend. Given that FTTN is going to suffer the exact same issue, do you think Malcolm Turnbull is going to stand on a podium and declare that there is also going to be capping or shaping within the new FTTN network? Oh, right, I forgot, they’re untouchable. Hey? I hang Turnbull out to dry on CVC earlier today on this very thread. He is on the record, as is hackett, now we get to watch what happens. The fact we're even discussing a scenario where I can get data from Japan to Brisbane for 1/20th the cost of getting it across Brisbane - and you're saying this is somehow sane - beggars belief. The glimmer of hope I am hanging on to (as I said earlier) is that the outspoken comments from the current board and from Turnbull re CVC stick (i.e. Hackett has called for it to be scrapped or dropped to $1/mbps/month). If they want to revolutionise comms in the country, then they would have a single access speed of heaps, kill CVC and offer layer 2 intercap services at next to nix. That would be interesting and would truly enable things like a national LAN for a soho business, remote workers in country towns seamlessly on the corporate network, etc. Here is Simon Hackett’s preference, by the way. I believe it’s pro fibre: http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/ I wasn't aware we were talking about fibre. David.
RE: NBN Petition
Its quite simple really. The whole premise of CVC being delivered to 93% of the population is bogus and deceptive. This is the statement that was suggested. The statement was factually correct but based on a complete lie. Sent from my Windows Phone -- From: David Connors Sent: 12/11/2013 8:38 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: NBN Petition On 12 November 2013 17:50, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: (Mind you, this is what is supposed to be in the NBN plan - The NBNCo Corporate Plan contains these examples on page 67: * The 1Gbps AVC price will fall from $150 to $90 (40% decrease) while the average speed increases from 30Mbps to 230Mbps (760% increase) * CVC pricing starts at $20Mbps/month when average data usage is 30GB/month and falls to $8/Mbps/month when average data usage is 540GB/month. Price falls by 2.5 times, while the average data usage grows by 18 times, which means 720% growth in revenue from CVC when accounting for price falls. ) Are you talking about this: http://www.nbnco.com.au/content/dam/nbnco/documents/nbn-co-corporate-plan-6-aug-2012.pdf ? Page 67 says nothing of the sort. I *think* what they're saying is that they are factoring in the 'no charge until 30001st premise in an area gets installed' as a form of discount, which is pretty rubbery accounting. To put page 67 in laymans terms, the first 150mbps of capacity in the service area (keeping in mind that might be 70,000+ premises) is free. I believe I read in the draft NBN document that they were intending the wholesale price to be $150 per month for a 1Gbps FTTH connection in Australia. So the least deceptive answer is that you could have a 1Gbps connection for $150 per month plus the cost of the ISP service. Nope. $150 of AVC + the ISP Service + CVC. Even if the price of CVC dropped to $8/mbps/month, then that would still be 800% higher than the forecasted cost of getting data from Europe to Australia next year. i.e. 1mbps CIR from overseas to Brisbane = $1, getting it across Brisbane, $8. FAIL. They didn’t broadcast the fact because they assumed that everyone would expect the same behaviour that they are getting from just about every single internet connection in the country at the moment, and that is, you are likely to get speeds of 1Gbps from your ISP and then you’ll share a pipe to the rest of the net with the other customers of the ISP. I have to admit, you're the first advocate for CVC I've ever met. Once explained to most people they are mortified. No one expects the NBN to deliver ANYTHING like what they are getting today ... otherwise they would not advocate for the $ spend. Given that FTTN is going to suffer the exact same issue, do you think Malcolm Turnbull is going to stand on a podium and declare that there is also going to be capping or shaping within the new FTTN network? Oh, right, I forgot, they’re untouchable. Hey? I hang Turnbull out to dry on CVC earlier today on this very thread. He is on the record, as is hackett, now we get to watch what happens. The fact we're even discussing a scenario where I can get data from Japan to Brisbane for 1/20th the cost of getting it across Brisbane - and you're saying this is somehow sane - beggars belief. The glimmer of hope I am hanging on to (as I said earlier) is that the outspoken comments from the current board and from Turnbull re CVC stick (i.e. Hackett has called for it to be scrapped or dropped to $1/mbps/month). If they want to revolutionise comms in the country, then they would have a single access speed of heaps, kill CVC and offer layer 2 intercap services at next to nix. That would be interesting and would truly enable things like a national LAN for a soho business, remote workers in country towns seamlessly on the corporate network, etc. Here is Simon Hackett’s preference, by the way. I believe it’s pro fibre: http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/ I wasn't aware we were talking about fibre. David.
Re: NBN Petition
On 12 November 2013 20:36, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: Its quite simple really. The whole premise of CVC being delivered to 93% of the population is bogus and deceptive. This is the statement that was suggested. The statement was factually correct but based on a complete lie. Now you're not even making any sense at all. CVC is measured and charged at the POI, not the customer connection. It applies to all traffic as it egresses the NBN and enters the RSP. It is utterly bizarre to advocate for it. Anyway, as I said, both board members of NBN Co and Turnbull are on the record as arguing either against CVC or for a massive reduction. We can only hope they follow through. Go google nbn cvc = Hackett has argued that the CVC costs are far too high, creating an artifical scarcity in bandwidth that doesn't exist. = Hackett has consistently criticised NBN Co’s CVC pricing over the past six months, arguing that it was “insane” and warning that no small ISPs would survive their walk through the “valley of death” transition from the current copper network to the fibre future envisioned by the Federal Government, if they wanted to maintain their spots as national providers. = iiNet has ongoing concerns over the economics of NBN Co's current CVC [Connectivity Virtual Circuit] charges. At the moment, the NBN's fee structure treats the abundant capacity on the NBN as if a scarcity existed. When access to abundance is irrationally constrained by NBN Co, bogus scarcity is created – like an artificially enforced famine. = NBN pricing in terms of access may be manageable if the CVC charge is brought into the world of the rational. iiNet continues to be very concerned about input costs from NBN Co which are disconnected from real-world costs. = Mr Malone said it was incomprehensible that international capacity costs were much cheaper than domestic transmission, which he described as a chokepoint. The cost of domestic transit is completely drowning out the cost of international capacity, he said. = After four years, it is fairly obvious that the previous NBN policy is an absolute failure: both in terms of failure to execute timely construction of the network and the inability to create a pricing framework, as evidenced by excessive megabit transmission (CVC) charges, which would actually encourage optimal use of the network and spur all those economic benefits currently touted for FTTH. - See more at: http://www.commsday.com/commsday-australasia/lynch-comment-regulators-yet-to-get-message-about-red-tape#sthash.peJmBqQb.dpuf = Telstra says the current price of the CVC of $20 per megabit per second assumes an average monthly usage of 30 gigabytes for each user, but this is already insufficient to cater for the requirements of end-users on high-speed broadband networks and, in the near term, this will create excessive CVC costs per end-user. - See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/nbn-charges-could-quadruple-telco/story-e6frgaif-1226689784957#sthash.7jFSW3oj.dpuf Telstra estimates CVC costs could quadruple by 2016. = There is a material risk in the near term that RSPs will be forced to either significantly increase end-user service prices or reduce the quality in response to demand growth, its submission says. When coupled with the lack of ongoing regulatory recourse, there is significant risk and uncertainty to RSPs that is likely to impact their investment decisions for NBN-based services. Other telcos have backed the warning. - See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/nbn-charges-could-quadruple-telco/story-e6frgaif-1226689784957#sthash.7jFSW3oj.dpuf = Speaking at the Communications and Policy Research Forum 2011, Market Clarity’s Shara Evans suggested the fixed $20 per megabit per second CVC fee should be reviewed – particularly as it had an impact on whether it was economical for RPS to service regional Australia. David.
Re: NBN Petition
Adding Simon Hackett given there seems to be a lot of speculation as to his input here .. :) On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 5:50 PM, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: “The price in other countries seems irrelevant. Those conditions don't exist here, otherwise the service would exist already, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.” Really? Are you saying that a global economy no longer matters? Wow, astounding. Maybe they should build a fence around Australia to keep the rest of the world out – they are a bit of a pain, after all. To answer your question in an appropriate way given the ongoing political response to this deceptive line is that the cost for a deceptive Liberal Party suggested single CVC that nobody would ever want, including most businesses is $20,000 (maybe – I haven’t actually seen this figure anywhere other than Malcolm’s comment). He’s absolutely right in that no individual home would want one because it is a ridiculous political assertion. (Mind you, this is what is supposed to be in the NBN plan - The NBNCo Corporate Plan contains these examples on page 67: * The 1Gbps AVC price will fall from $150 to $90 (40% decrease) while the average speed increases from 30Mbps to 230Mbps (760% increase) * CVC pricing starts at $20Mbps/month when average data usage is 30GB/month and falls to $8/Mbps/month when average data usage is 540GB/month. Price falls by 2.5 times, while the average data usage grows by 18 times, which means 720% growth in revenue from CVC when accounting for price falls. ) Or I believe I read in the draft NBN document that they were intending the wholesale price to be $150 per month for a 1Gbps FTTH connection in Australia. So the least deceptive answer is that you could have a 1Gbps connection for $150 per month plus the cost of the ISP service. They didn’t broadcast the fact because they assumed that everyone would expect the same behaviour that they are getting from just about every single internet connection in the country at the moment, and that is, you are likely to get speeds of 1Gbps from your ISP and then you’ll share a pipe to the rest of the net with the other customers of the ISP. Given that FTTN is going to suffer the exact same issue, do you think Malcolm Turnbull is going to stand on a podium and declare that there is also going to be capping or shaping within the new FTTN network? Oh, right, I forgot, they’re untouchable. Here is Simon Hackett’s preference, by the way. I believe it’s pro fibre: http://simonhackett.com/2013/07/17/nbn-fibre-on-a-copper-budget/ *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Joseph Cooney *Sent:* Tuesday, 12 November 2013 6:26 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* RE: NBN Petition The price in other countries seems irrelevant. Those conditions don't exist here, otherwise the service would exist already, and we wouldn't be having this conversation. So, given the distinction you've created between 'dedicated' and 'continuous' what would the prices be for those two different types of services under the NBN? On Nov 12, 2013 5:18 PM, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: Not $20,000. There is a difference between “dedicated” and “a continuous 1Gbps stream of data” A number of CVC lines are purchased. Data transmission is spread over the entire lot. If you look at international prices, 1Gbps costs around $105 per month. In Japan, it is possible to get a 2Gbps connection for $20 per month. So why would Australia cost $20,000 per month? Ridiculous. No one would purchase it. So they would be forced to lower prices to a point where they’d get people to open their wallets. *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Joseph Cooney *Sent:* Tuesday, 12 November 2013 6:14 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* RE: NBN Petition I'm confused. What WOULD a dedicated gigabit connection cost under the NBN? On Nov 12, 2013 5:10 PM, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: It was deceptive rubbish. He implied that it would cost $20,000 for every household. It’s a blatant lie. *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *David Connors *Sent:* Tuesday, 12 November 2013 5:58 PM *To:* ozDotNet *Subject:* Re: NBN Petition On 12 November 2013 15:51, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: [ ... ] That is a typically deceptive political response and is a load of complete Liberal Party BS and Malcolm Turnbull lost any credibility he had with me when he said it. It won’t cost $20,000 a month for ANY household. A single household never needs a continuous stream of data getting a maximum of 1Gbps at all times, so it is shared among a whole bunch a households. So a single CVC line might be split between 10 to 20 houses. There is nothing incorrect in what he said, 1gbps
RE: NBN Petition
Actually it was you trying to propagate Malcolm Turnbulls lie that a 1Gbps was going to cost every household $20,000. But keep going trying to reflect from this lie, by all means. Sent from my Windows Phone -- From: David Connors Sent: 13/11/2013 9:04 AM To: Tony Wright Cc: ozDotNet Subject: Re: NBN Petition On 12 November 2013 20:36, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: Its quite simple really. The whole premise of CVC being delivered to 93% of the population is bogus and deceptive. This is the statement that was suggested. The statement was factually correct but based on a complete lie. Now you're not even making any sense at all. CVC is measured and charged at the POI, not the customer connection. It applies to all traffic as it egresses the NBN and enters the RSP. It is utterly bizarre to advocate for it. Anyway, as I said, both board members of NBN Co and Turnbull are on the record as arguing either against CVC or for a massive reduction. We can only hope they follow through. Go google nbn cvc = Hackett has argued that the CVC costs are far too high, creating an artifical scarcity in bandwidth that doesn't exist. = Hackett has consistently criticised NBN Co’s CVC pricing over the past six months, arguing that it was “insane” and warning that no small ISPs would survive their walk through the “valley of death” transition from the current copper network to the fibre future envisioned by the Federal Government, if they wanted to maintain their spots as national providers. = iiNet has ongoing concerns over the economics of NBN Co's current CVC [Connectivity Virtual Circuit] charges. At the moment, the NBN's fee structure treats the abundant capacity on the NBN as if a scarcity existed. When access to abundance is irrationally constrained by NBN Co, bogus scarcity is created – like an artificially enforced famine. = NBN pricing in terms of access may be manageable if the CVC charge is brought into the world of the rational. iiNet continues to be very concerned about input costs from NBN Co which are disconnected from real-world costs. = Mr Malone said it was incomprehensible that international capacity costs were much cheaper than domestic transmission, which he described as a chokepoint. The cost of domestic transit is completely drowning out the cost of international capacity, he said. = After four years, it is fairly obvious that the previous NBN policy is an absolute failure: both in terms of failure to execute timely construction of the network and the inability to create a pricing framework, as evidenced by excessive megabit transmission (CVC) charges, which would actually encourage optimal use of the network and spur all those economic benefits currently touted for FTTH. - See more at: http://www.commsday.com/commsday-australasia/lynch-comment-regulators-yet-to-get-message-about-red-tape#sthash.peJmBqQb.dpuf = Telstra says the current price of the CVC of $20 per megabit per second assumes an average monthly usage of 30 gigabytes for each user, but this is already insufficient to cater for the requirements of end-users on high-speed broadband networks and, in the near term, this will create excessive CVC costs per end-user. - See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/nbn-charges-could-quadruple-telco/story-e6frgaif-1226689784957#sthash.7jFSW3oj.dpuf Telstra estimates CVC costs could quadruple by 2016. = There is a material risk in the near term that RSPs will be forced to either significantly increase end-user service prices or reduce the quality in response to demand growth, its submission says. When coupled with the lack of ongoing regulatory recourse, there is significant risk and uncertainty to RSPs that is likely to impact their investment decisions for NBN-based services. Other telcos have backed the warning. - See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/nbn-charges-could-quadruple-telco/story-e6frgaif-1226689784957#sthash.7jFSW3oj.dpuf = Speaking at the Communications and Policy Research Forum 2011, Market Clarity’s Shara Evans suggested the fixed $20 per megabit per second CVC fee should be reviewed – particularly as it had an impact on whether it was economical for RPS to service regional Australia. David.
RE: NBN Petition
Deflect. Damned autocorrect. Sent from my Windows Phone -- From: Tony Wright Sent: 13/11/2013 9:23 AM To: David Connors Cc: ozDotNet Subject: RE: NBN Petition Actually it was you trying to propagate Malcolm Turnbulls lie that a 1Gbps was going to cost every household $20,000. But keep going trying to reflect from this lie, by all means. Sent from my Windows Phone -- From: David Connors Sent: 13/11/2013 9:04 AM To: Tony Wright Cc: ozDotNet Subject: Re: NBN Petition On 12 November 2013 20:36, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: Its quite simple really. The whole premise of CVC being delivered to 93% of the population is bogus and deceptive. This is the statement that was suggested. The statement was factually correct but based on a complete lie. Now you're not even making any sense at all. CVC is measured and charged at the POI, not the customer connection. It applies to all traffic as it egresses the NBN and enters the RSP. It is utterly bizarre to advocate for it. Anyway, as I said, both board members of NBN Co and Turnbull are on the record as arguing either against CVC or for a massive reduction. We can only hope they follow through. Go google nbn cvc = Hackett has argued that the CVC costs are far too high, creating an artifical scarcity in bandwidth that doesn't exist. = Hackett has consistently criticised NBN Co’s CVC pricing over the past six months, arguing that it was “insane” and warning that no small ISPs would survive their walk through the “valley of death” transition from the current copper network to the fibre future envisioned by the Federal Government, if they wanted to maintain their spots as national providers. = iiNet has ongoing concerns over the economics of NBN Co's current CVC [Connectivity Virtual Circuit] charges. At the moment, the NBN's fee structure treats the abundant capacity on the NBN as if a scarcity existed. When access to abundance is irrationally constrained by NBN Co, bogus scarcity is created – like an artificially enforced famine. = NBN pricing in terms of access may be manageable if the CVC charge is brought into the world of the rational. iiNet continues to be very concerned about input costs from NBN Co which are disconnected from real-world costs. = Mr Malone said it was incomprehensible that international capacity costs were much cheaper than domestic transmission, which he described as a chokepoint. The cost of domestic transit is completely drowning out the cost of international capacity, he said. = After four years, it is fairly obvious that the previous NBN policy is an absolute failure: both in terms of failure to execute timely construction of the network and the inability to create a pricing framework, as evidenced by excessive megabit transmission (CVC) charges, which would actually encourage optimal use of the network and spur all those economic benefits currently touted for FTTH. - See more at: http://www.commsday.com/commsday-australasia/lynch-comment-regulators-yet-to-get-message-about-red-tape#sthash.peJmBqQb.dpuf = Telstra says the current price of the CVC of $20 per megabit per second assumes an average monthly usage of 30 gigabytes for each user, but this is already insufficient to cater for the requirements of end-users on high-speed broadband networks and, in the near term, this will create excessive CVC costs per end-user. - See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/nbn-charges-could-quadruple-telco/story-e6frgaif-1226689784957#sthash.7jFSW3oj.dpuf Telstra estimates CVC costs could quadruple by 2016. = There is a material risk in the near term that RSPs will be forced to either significantly increase end-user service prices or reduce the quality in response to demand growth, its submission says. When coupled with the lack of ongoing regulatory recourse, there is significant risk and uncertainty to RSPs that is likely to impact their investment decisions for NBN-based services. Other telcos have backed the warning. - See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/nbn-charges-could-quadruple-telco/story-e6frgaif-1226689784957#sthash.7jFSW3oj.dpuf = Speaking at the Communications and Policy Research Forum 2011, Market Clarity’s Shara Evans suggested the fixed $20 per megabit per second CVC fee should be reviewed – particularly as it had an impact on whether it was economical for RPS to service regional Australia. David.
RE: NBN Petition
Turnbull's point was - 'don't anyone think that the Labor NBN was going to give everyone 100% always available unfettered 1 Gbps' .. There's no lie in that .. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 13 November 2013 8:23 AM To: David Connors Cc: ozDotNet Subject: RE: NBN Petition Actually it was you trying to propagate Malcolm Turnbulls lie that a 1Gbps was going to cost every household $20,000. But keep going trying to reflect from this lie, by all means. Sent from my Windows Phone _ From: David Connors Sent: 13/11/2013 9:04 AM To: Tony Wright Cc: ozDotNet Subject: Re: NBN Petition No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3614/6773 - Release Date: 10/22/13 On 12 November 2013 20:36, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: Its quite simple really. The whole premise of CVC being delivered to 93% of the population is bogus and deceptive. This is the statement that was suggested. The statement was factually correct but based on a complete lie. Now you're not even making any sense at all. CVC is measured and charged at the POI, not the customer connection. It applies to all traffic as it egresses the NBN and enters the RSP. It is utterly bizarre to advocate for it. Anyway, as I said, both board members of NBN Co and Turnbull are on the record as arguing either against CVC or for a massive reduction. We can only hope they follow through. Go google nbn cvc = Hackett has argued that the CVC costs are far too high, creating an artifical scarcity in bandwidth that doesn't exist. = Hackett has consistently criticised NBN Co's CVC pricing over the past six months, arguing that it was insane and warning that no small ISPs would survive their walk through the valley of death transition from the current copper network to the fibre future envisioned by the Federal Government, if they wanted to maintain their spots as national providers. = iiNet has ongoing concerns over the economics of NBN Co's current CVC [Connectivity Virtual Circuit] charges. At the moment, the NBN's fee structure treats the abundant capacity on the NBN as if a scarcity existed. When access to abundance is irrationally constrained by NBN Co, bogus scarcity is created - like an artificially enforced famine. = NBN pricing in terms of access may be manageable if the CVC charge is brought into the world of the rational. iiNet continues to be very concerned about input costs from NBN Co which are disconnected from real-world costs. = Mr Malone said it was incomprehensible that international capacity costs were much cheaper than domestic transmission, which he described as a chokepoint. The cost of domestic transit is completely drowning out the cost of international capacity, he said. = After four years, it is fairly obvious that the previous NBN policy is an absolute failure: both in terms of failure to execute timely construction of the network and the inability to create a pricing framework, as evidenced by excessive megabit transmission (CVC) charges, which would actually encourage optimal use of the network and spur all those economic benefits currently touted for FTTH. - See more at: http://www.commsday.com/commsday-australasia/lynch-comment-regulators-yet-to -get-message-about-red-tape#sthash.peJmBqQb.dpuf = Telstra says the current price of the CVC of $20 per megabit per second assumes an average monthly usage of 30 gigabytes for each user, but this is already insufficient to cater for the requirements of end-users on high-speed broadband networks and, in the near term, this will create excessive CVC costs per end-user. - See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/nbn-charges-could-quadrupl e-telco/story-e6frgaif-1226689784957#sthash.7jFSW3oj.dpuf Telstra estimates CVC costs could quadruple by 2016. = There is a material risk in the near term that RSPs will be forced to either significantly increase end-user service prices or reduce the quality in response to demand growth, its submission says. When coupled with the lack of ongoing regulatory recourse, there is significant risk and uncertainty to RSPs that is likely to impact their investment decisions for NBN-based services. Other telcos have backed the warning. - See more at: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/in-depth/nbn-charges-could-quadrupl e-telco/story-e6frgaif-1226689784957#sthash.7jFSW3oj.dpuf = Speaking at the Communications and Policy Research Forum 2011, Market Clarity's Shara Evans suggested the fixed $20 per megabit per second CVC fee should be reviewed - particularly as it had an impact on whether it was economical for RPS to service regional Australia. David.
RE: NBN Petition
It's still a lie. The whole premise is bogus. The lie is in claiming that this was ever reasonable. I have Bigpond cable. It is supposed to give me 100Mbps down and 2Mbps up. Does it always give me that? Of course not. It would never make business sense. I share my capacity with others on the cable. Am I affected by the fact that I don't always get the top speed? Not really - in the entire time I've had it I have been unaffected by this. I still get a decent download speed the whole time, and it's never dropped noticeably for me. When I work from home, others are at work. Why would the ISP need to purchase a continuous stream of data to support my use when there are others that aren't using theirs? So when Malcolm Turnbull says it's going to cost $20,000 to connect up every household, I call BS, because, quite simply, it was never suggested before he said it, it was never practical, it was a statement designed to deceive the public and it is complete and utter BS. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Paul Evrat Sent: Wednesday, 13 November 2013 10:55 AM To: 'ozDotNet' Subject: RE: NBN Petition Turnbull's point was - 'don't anyone think that the Labor NBN was going to give everyone 100% always available unfettered 1 Gbps' .. There's no lie in that .. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of Tony Wright Sent: Wednesday, 13 November 2013 8:23 AM To: David Connors Cc: ozDotNet Subject: RE: NBN Petition Actually it was you trying to propagate Malcolm Turnbulls lie that a 1Gbps was going to cost every household $20,000. But keep going trying to reflect from this lie, by all means. Sent from my Windows Phone _ From: David Connors Sent: 13/11/2013 9:04 AM To: Tony Wright Cc: ozDotNet Subject: Re: NBN Petition No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3614/6773 - Release Date: 10/22/13 On 12 November 2013 20:36, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com mailto:tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: Its quite simple really. The whole premise of CVC being delivered to 93% of the population is bogus and deceptive. This is the statement that was suggested. The statement was factually correct but based on a complete lie. Now you're not even making any sense at all. CVC is measured and charged at the POI, not the customer connection. It applies to all traffic as it egresses the NBN and enters the RSP. It is utterly bizarre to advocate for it. Anyway, as I said, both board members of NBN Co and Turnbull are on the record as arguing either against CVC or for a massive reduction. We can only hope they follow through. Go google nbn cvc = Hackett has argued that the CVC costs are far too high, creating an artifical scarcity in bandwidth that doesn't exist. = Hackett has consistently criticised NBN Co's CVC pricing over the past six months, arguing that it was insane and warning that no small ISPs would survive their walk through the valley of death transition from the current copper network to the fibre future envisioned by the Federal Government, if they wanted to maintain their spots as national providers. = iiNet has ongoing concerns over the economics of NBN Co's current CVC [Connectivity Virtual Circuit] charges. At the moment, the NBN's fee structure treats the abundant capacity on the NBN as if a scarcity existed. When access to abundance is irrationally constrained by NBN Co, bogus scarcity is created - like an artificially enforced famine. = NBN pricing in terms of access may be manageable if the CVC charge is brought into the world of the rational. iiNet continues to be very concerned about input costs from NBN Co which are disconnected from real-world costs. = Mr Malone said it was incomprehensible that international capacity costs were much cheaper than domestic transmission, which he described as a chokepoint. The cost of domestic transit is completely drowning out the cost of international capacity, he said. = After four years, it is fairly obvious that the previous NBN policy is an absolute failure: both in terms of failure to execute timely construction of the network and the inability to create a pricing framework, as evidenced by excessive megabit transmission (CVC) charges, which would actually encourage optimal use of the network and spur all those economic benefits currently touted for FTTH. - See more at: http://www.commsday.com/commsday-australasia/lynch-comment-regulators-yet-to -get-message-about-red-tape#sthash.peJmBqQb.dpuf = Telstra says the current price of the CVC of $20 per megabit per second assumes an average monthly usage of 30 gigabytes for each user, but this is already insufficient to cater for the requirements of end-users on high-speed broadband networks and, in the
RE: NBN Petition
I'm still confused - based on what we know now of the published nbn pricing, once all the sweetheart deals and honeymoon periods are over, what will a dedicated GB connection to my house cost under the nbn? What will an 'allocated' or whatever you want to call it 1gb connection cost? On Nov 13, 2013 10:26 AM, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: It’s still a lie. The whole premise is bogus. The lie is in claiming that this was ever reasonable. I have Bigpond cable. It is supposed to give me 100Mbps down and 2Mbps up. Does it always give me that? Of course not. It would never make business sense. I share my capacity with others on the cable. Am I affected by the fact that I don’t always get the top speed? Not really – in the entire time I’ve had it I have been unaffected by this. I still get a decent download speed the whole time, and it’s never dropped noticeably for me. When I work from home, others are at work. Why would the ISP need to purchase a continuous stream of data to support my use when there are others that aren’t using theirs? So when Malcolm Turnbull says it’s going to cost $20,000 to connect up every household, I call BS, because, quite simply, it was never suggested before he said it, it was never practical, it was a statement designed to deceive the public and it is complete and utter BS. *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Paul Evrat *Sent:* Wednesday, 13 November 2013 10:55 AM *To:* 'ozDotNet' *Subject:* RE: NBN Petition Turnbull’s point was - ‘don’t anyone think that the Labor NBN was going to give everyone 100% always available unfettered 1 Gbps’ .. There’s no lie in that .. *From:* ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [ mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] *On Behalf Of *Tony Wright *Sent:* Wednesday, 13 November 2013 8:23 AM *To:* David Connors *Cc:* ozDotNet *Subject:* RE: NBN Petition Actually it was you trying to propagate Malcolm Turnbulls lie that a 1Gbps was going to cost every household $20,000. But keep going trying to reflect from this lie, by all means. Sent from my Windows Phone -- *From: *David Connors *Sent: *13/11/2013 9:04 AM *To: *Tony Wright *Cc: *ozDotNet *Subject: *Re: NBN Petition No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4158 / Virus Database: 3614/6773 - Release Date: 10/22/13 On 12 November 2013 20:36, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: Its quite simple really. The whole premise of CVC being delivered to 93% of the population is bogus and deceptive. This is the statement that was suggested. The statement was factually correct but based on a complete lie. Now you're not even making any sense at all. CVC is measured and charged at the POI, not the customer connection. It applies to all traffic as it egresses the NBN and enters the RSP. It is utterly bizarre to advocate for it. Anyway, as I said, both board members of NBN Co and Turnbull are on the record as arguing either against CVC or for a massive reduction. We can only hope they follow through. Go google nbn cvc = Hackett has argued that the CVC costs are far too high, creating an artifical scarcity in bandwidth that doesn't exist. = Hackett has consistently criticised NBN Co’s CVC pricing over the past six months, arguing that it was “insane” and warning that no small ISPs would survive their walk through the “valley of death” transition from the current copper network to the fibre future envisioned by the Federal Government, if they wanted to maintain their spots as national providers. = iiNet has ongoing concerns over the economics of NBN Co's current CVC [Connectivity Virtual Circuit] charges. At the moment, the NBN's fee structure treats the abundant capacity on the NBN as if a scarcity existed. When access to abundance is irrationally constrained by NBN Co, bogus scarcity is created – like an artificially enforced famine. = NBN pricing in terms of access may be manageable if the CVC charge is brought into the world of the rational. iiNet continues to be very concerned about input costs from NBN Co which are disconnected from real-world costs. = Mr Malone said it was incomprehensible that international capacity costs were much cheaper than domestic transmission, which he described as a chokepoint. The cost of domestic transit is completely drowning out the cost of international capacity, he said. = After four years, it is fairly obvious that the previous NBN policy is an absolute failure: both in terms of failure to execute timely construction of the network and the inability to create a pricing framework, as evidenced by excessive megabit transmission (CVC) charges, which would actually encourage optimal use of the network and spur all those economic benefits currently touted for FTTH.
RE: NBN Petition
Quite the contrary – what I am saying is that most of what you are saying is simply irrelevant. If a home user is offered 1Gbps for 200Gb per month download for $200 per month, they don’t give a rats whether I understand the underlying technologies or not. Just stop suggesting that it’s going to cost them $20,000 per month, because it isn’t. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 13 November 2013 11:50 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: NBN Petition On 13 November 2013 10:26, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.com mailto:tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: Why would the ISP need to purchase a continuous stream of data to support my use when there are others that aren’t using theirs? They'll purchase whatever is needed to service their customers. Currently Telstra is paying little to get their data off their layer 2 network and onto their IP network. Under the NBN they will be paying international IP transit providers $1 a megabit per second for your downloads AND an ADDITIONAL 20 x that to NBN Co. Over and above today. You will get that cost. But I think the point is entirely lost on your because you don't know the difference between TCP/IP and Ethernet. So when Malcolm Turnbull says it’s going to cost $20,000 to connect up every household, I call BS, because, quite simply, it was never suggested before he said it, it was never practical, it was a statement designed to deceive the public and it is complete and utter BS. NBN is offering 1gbps connections with promoted future scenarios with high def video and whatnot. Hell, the ads show kids looking at 3D frogs floating above macintoshes. Whether you have VDSL2+ vectoring or fibre or a zillion gigabits of perf, it doens't matter a jot if you can't use it. Turnbull is perfectly right in pointing this out. When I was a kid my Dad used to crack the shits all the time for leaving lights on and wasting money. In the future the mothers of Australia will be screaming at the kids TURN OFF THE 3D TV! YOU'RE WASTING MY GOOD NBN! David.
RE: NBN Petition
If the NBN lasts for as long as the copper network, then won’t these prices fall over time? First we used to pay for a line that had no internet capability at all. Then we started paying for 56bkps what we pay for 8mbps now. Is there anything to suggest that over the longer term this trend would not continue? Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 13 November 2013 11:50 AM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: NBN Petition On 13 November 2013 10:26, Tony Wright tonyw...@gmail.commailto:tonyw...@gmail.com wrote: Why would the ISP need to purchase a continuous stream of data to support my use when there are others that aren’t using theirs? They'll purchase whatever is needed to service their customers. Currently Telstra is paying little to get their data off their layer 2 network and onto their IP network. Under the NBN they will be paying international IP transit providers $1 a megabit per second for your downloads AND an ADDITIONAL 20 x that to NBN Co. Over and above today. You will get that cost. But I think the point is entirely lost on your because you don't know the difference between TCP/IP and Ethernet. So when Malcolm Turnbull says it’s going to cost $20,000 to connect up every household, I call BS, because, quite simply, it was never suggested before he said it, it was never practical, it was a statement designed to deceive the public and it is complete and utter BS. NBN is offering 1gbps connections with promoted future scenarios with high def video and whatnot. Hell, the ads show kids looking at 3D frogs floating above macintoshes. Whether you have VDSL2+ vectoring or fibre or a zillion gigabits of perf, it doens't matter a jot if you can't use it. Turnbull is perfectly right in pointing this out. When I was a kid my Dad used to crack the shits all the time for leaving lights on and wasting money. In the future the mothers of Australia will be screaming at the kids TURN OFF THE 3D TV! YOU'RE WASTING MY GOOD NBN! David.
Re: NBN Petition
On 13 November 2013 10:56, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: If the NBN lasts for as long as the copper network, then won’t these prices fall over time? First we used to pay for a line that had no internet capability at all. Then we started paying for 56bkps what we pay for 8mbps now. Is there anything to suggest that over the longer term this trend would not continue? We have no idea. When the network is set up to structurally prohibit competition, and they're not committing to anything in their business plan, then all current information points to no, unfortunately. Anyway, like I said, CVC is on the nose with the current board. We just have to wait to see what they say in a month. At least the current board thinks it is a problem. David.
RE: NBN Petition
Even over 20+ years? I don’t think, 20+ years ago we had any real idea how compute, storage, network and other infrastructure technologies were specifically going to fall in cost per unit, but they have been rather relentlessly. From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 13 November 2013 12:00 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: NBN Petition On 13 November 2013 10:56, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.commailto:k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: If the NBN lasts for as long as the copper network, then won’t these prices fall over time? First we used to pay for a line that had no internet capability at all. Then we started paying for 56bkps what we pay for 8mbps now. Is there anything to suggest that over the longer term this trend would not continue? We have no idea. When the network is set up to structurally prohibit competition, and they're not committing to anything in their business plan, then all current information points to no, unfortunately. Anyway, like I said, CVC is on the nose with the current board. We just have to wait to see what they say in a month. At least the current board thinks it is a problem. David.
Re: NBN Petition
On 13 November 2013 11:14, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: Even over 20+ years? I don’t think, 20+ years ago we had any real idea how compute, storage, network and other infrastructure technologies were specifically going to fall in cost per unit, but they have been rather relentlessly. I think using the progress made in IT in general over the past two decades as a yard stick for a government monopoly removing a tax on Ethernet switching is pretty wishful thinking. Especially when their business plan has no intention or timeline for sunsetting the charges. The worst outcome from their review, I think, could be some sort of token reduction in CVC (say $20 down to $10) so the government can pretend it has been dealt with and move on. Even then moving data across the CBD would be 1000% more expensive than moving it to Japan. There is a bunch of other structural stuff in NBN which is bizarre (121 POIs, for example) ... dunno if any of that will get dealt with. I like Hackett's suggestion of going back to 7 POIs with full redundancy rather than 121 POIs with no redundancy. It is going to be a party when one of those 121 POIs burn down. As Hackett (I think it was him - might have been Malone) - the NBN's pricing model is constructed on the principle of scarcity, which the opposite is true. David.
RE: NBN Petition
Half of what you’re talking about (aka the charges) are a simple financial construct that can be changed at any time. In 20 years a government might simply decide to change the way things are charged, and if required take a hit to the budget bottom line – it’d probably make a great election promise. Or privatise parts of the network. Or who the f*ck knows. 10 years ago, most people didn’t have data on their phones, and for those of us that did, it was pretty bloody expensive. 20 years ago most people didn’t even have dial-up 28.8kbps internet at home, and we were using Token Ring networks, and coax networks and Banyan Vines, and running 486DX2 66Mhz computers. 30 years ago, most of that didn’t even exist. You guys are arguing about little short-term implementation details in an infrastructure project that’s supposed to last 50+ years. Sure things could potentially be improved. But that’s not seeing the forest for the trees. If we argued like this about the copper network, it would never, ever have been built. The enormous benefits that widespread internet access has provided to society would never, ever have been factored into the “business case” for the copper network – because the internet didn’t even exist at the time. So, we should not have bothered building that network? That would have been a stupid decision. Cheers Ken From: ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com [mailto:ozdotnet-boun...@ozdotnet.com] On Behalf Of David Connors Sent: Wednesday, 13 November 2013 3:59 PM To: ozDotNet Subject: Re: NBN Petition On 13 November 2013 11:14, Ken Schaefer k...@adopenstatic.commailto:k...@adopenstatic.com wrote: Even over 20+ years? I don’t think, 20+ years ago we had any real idea how compute, storage, network and other infrastructure technologies were specifically going to fall in cost per unit, but they have been rather relentlessly. I think using the progress made in IT in general over the past two decades as a yard stick for a government monopoly removing a tax on Ethernet switching is pretty wishful thinking. Especially when their business plan has no intention or timeline for sunsetting the charges. The worst outcome from their review, I think, could be some sort of token reduction in CVC (say $20 down to $10) so the government can pretend it has been dealt with and move on. Even then moving data across the CBD would be 1000% more expensive than moving it to Japan. There is a bunch of other structural stuff in NBN which is bizarre (121 POIs, for example) ... dunno if any of that will get dealt with. I like Hackett's suggestion of going back to 7 POIs with full redundancy rather than 121 POIs with no redundancy. It is going to be a party when one of those 121 POIs burn down. As Hackett (I think it was him - might have been Malone) - the NBN's pricing model is constructed on the principle of scarcity, which the opposite is true. David.
