RE: PESO - The Protestor

[Bob W]

I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this because
I'm curious to see where it's going.

Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos. Since
common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are equally
closely related to both. 

Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the Third
Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great apes, and
talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old book now
so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is still an
excellent read.

The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps does
not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on the latest
paper someone announces another candidate. 

I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The One.
There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are found
of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other candidates, but
we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of creature it
was.

The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories that
somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would be
unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines for about
40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I wouldn't
even hazard a guess.

Can I have my surprise now?

B


> -Original Message-
> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
> 
> Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised what
> you find.
> 
> Alan C
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: knarf
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
> 
> I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I suppose it
> would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific
feeling.
> My opinion really doesn't mean much.
> 
> Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter of
> opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is not an
> area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> frank
> 
> On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C  wrote:
> >You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
> >"Genetically
> >we're close to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans" - which, in
> >your opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion as to who the
> >common ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm
> >being cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a conclusion, or
> >tying to trap me in some way" - not really, I'm trying to establish a
> >common base so we can further our discourse.
> >
> >Alan C
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: knarf
> >Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:10 PM
> >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> >Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
> >
> >I don't understand your question. We don't have any "living ancestors"
> >in
> >evolutionary terms.
> >
> >As I said earlier, we're great apes, so genetically we're close to
> >chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. But they aren't ancestors or
> >somehow "below" us. We share a common ancestor and each species has
> >evolved differently to where we are today.
> >
> >I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm being cross-examined here, as if
> >
> >you're moving toward a conclusion, or tying to trap me in some way.
> >
> >Could we get to the point please?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >frank
> >
> >On November 25, 2015 11:08:57 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
> >>Which are our closest living ancestors or perhaps those most like us?
> >>
> >>Alan C
> >>
> >>-Original Message-
> >>From: knarf
> >>Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 4:57 PM
> >>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> >>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
> >>
> >>I'm not sure exactly what you mean, however humans are animals, great
> >>apes to be exact, and like every other animal on the face of the
> >>earth, we have evolved from ancestors to our current form.
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>
> >>frank
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>On November 25, 2015 9:41:37 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
> >>>Do you consider humans to be part of the evolutionary scale?
> >>>
> >>>Alan C


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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[knarf]

You wouldn't by chance be trying to lead me to the following site:

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/06/following_the_evidence_where_i047161.html

Would you? Or possibly one like it?

Just curious. 

Cheers,

frank 

On November 26, 2015 12:05:55 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised
>what 
>you find.
>
>Alan C
>
>-Original Message- 
>From: knarf
>Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>
>I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I suppose
>it 
>would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific
>feeling. 
>My opinion really doesn't mean much.
>
>Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter of 
>opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is not
>an 
>area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.
>
>Cheers,
>
>frank
>
>On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>>You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
>>"Genetically
>>we're close to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans" - which, in
>>your
>>opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion as to who the
>>common
>>ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm being
>>cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a conclusion, or tying
>>to
>>trap me in some way" - not really, I'm trying to establish a common
>>base so
>>we can further our discourse.
>>
>>Alan C
>>
>>-Original Message- 
>>From: knarf
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:10 PM
>>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>
>>I don't understand your question. We don't have any "living ancestors"
>>in
>>evolutionary terms.
>>
>>As I said earlier, we're great apes, so genetically we're close to
>>chimps,
>>bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. But they aren't ancestors or somehow
>>"below" us. We share a common ancestor and each species has evolved
>>differently to where we are today.
>>
>>I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm being cross-examined here, as
>if
>>
>>you're moving toward a conclusion, or tying to trap me in some way.
>>
>>Could we get to the point please?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>frank
>>
>>On November 25, 2015 11:08:57 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>>>Which are our closest living ancestors or perhaps those most like us?
>>>
>>>Alan C
>>>
>>>-Original Message- 
>>>From: knarf
>>>Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 4:57 PM
>>>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>>
>>>I'm not sure exactly what you mean, however humans are animals, great
>>>apes
>>>to be exact, and like every other animal on the face of the earth, we
>>>have
>>>evolved from ancestors to our current form.
>>>
>>>Cheers,
>>>
>>>frank
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>On November 25, 2015 9:41:37 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
Do you consider humans to be part of the evolutionary scale?

Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: knarf
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 2:28 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

We were talking about protesters and anti-fur, but you correctly
surmise
that I am sympathetic to their cause. And yes, many of the
>protesters
we met
on Sunday are vegans, some of whom we've met at vegan events.

We've discussed my dietary veganism before, and while there are no
"rules",
ethical vegans normally take the position that it is wrong to
>exploit
animals. For that reason we do not knowingly consume animal
>products,
and
that extends beyond diet. I do not want to use any product that came
from an
animal: that includes leather, wool, silk, etc. It gets tricky
>>because
some
glues have animal products. Some beer has fish - derived isinglas 
>(a
foaming agent). Sometimes one really has to research to make sure
>>they
are
not unwittingly exploiting animals.

As for my shoes, I mostly wear canvas running shoes (Converse Chuck
Taylor's
to be exact) and my dress shoes are synthetic that have the look
>(but
not
cruelty) of leather.

Thanks for asking.

And by "native" we were referring to North America's First Nations
people ,
the descendants of those who greeted the first Europeans when they
arrived
here. We used to call them "Indians" because many early explorers
>>were
geographically challenged. That term is no longer used as we now
reserve it
for those who are actually from the country India.

Cheers,

frank

On November 25, 2015 2:36:11 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>What about your leather shoes? And what is a native?
>
>Alan C
>
>-Original Message- 
>From: knarf
>Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 7:49 AM
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Alan C]

Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.

Alan C


-Original Message- 
From: Bob W

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor

I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this because
I'm curious to see where it's going.

Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos. Since
common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are equally
closely related to both.

Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the Third
Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great apes, and
talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old book now
so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is still an
excellent read.

The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps does
not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on the latest
paper someone announces another candidate.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The One.
There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are found
of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other candidates, but
we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of creature it
was.

The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories that
somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would be
unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines for about
40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I wouldn't
even hazard a guess.

Can I have my surprise now?

B



-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised what
you find.

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: knarf
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I suppose it
would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific

feeling.

My opinion really doesn't mean much.

Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter of
opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is not an
area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.

Cheers,

frank

On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
>"Genetically
>we're close to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans" - which, in
>your opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion as to who the
>common ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm
>being cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a conclusion, or
>tying to trap me in some way" - not really, I'm trying to establish a
>common base so we can further our discourse.
>
>Alan C
>
>-Original Message-
>From: knarf
>Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:10 PM
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>
>I don't understand your question. We don't have any "living ancestors"
>in
>evolutionary terms.
>
>As I said earlier, we're great apes, so genetically we're close to
>chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. But they aren't ancestors or
>somehow "below" us. We share a common ancestor and each species has
>evolved differently to where we are today.
>
>I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm being cross-examined here, as if
>
>you're moving toward a conclusion, or tying to trap me in some way.
>
>Could we get to the point please?
>
>Thanks,
>
>frank
>
>On November 25, 2015 11:08:57 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>>Which are our closest living ancestors or perhaps those most like us?
>>
>>Alan C
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: knarf
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 4:57 PM
>>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>
>>I'm not sure exactly what you mean, however humans are animals, great
>>apes to be exact, and like every other animal on the face of the
>>earth, we have evolved from ancestors to our current form.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>frank
>>
>>
>>
>>On November 25, 2015 9:41:37 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>>>Do you consider humans to be part of the evolutionary scale?
>>>
>>>Alan C



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Re: dos Pesos - one for Frank one for Paul Sorenson

[Jack Davis]

Coyote?

J





Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 25, 2015, at 10:39 PM, ann sanfedele  wrote:
> 
> Two from1992  LX &  Kodachrome
> 
> Frank -
> here is a friend I made along the Haines Highway in the Yukon
> https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-GcTkPBJ/A
> 
> Paul -
> The Robert Service cabin in Dawson..
> https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-f6MxHC5/A
> 
> Now I'm sorry  I didn't work it more ...
> 
> ann
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> PDML@pdml.net
> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
> the directions.

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to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Bob W-PDML]

That won't do my gout any good.

B

> On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:
> 
> Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.
> 
> Alan C
> 
> 
> -Original Message- From: Bob W
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
> To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
> Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor
> 
> I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this because
> I'm curious to see where it's going.
> 
> Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos. Since
> common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are equally
> closely related to both.
> 
> Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the Third
> Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great apes, and
> talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old book now
> so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is still an
> excellent read.
> 
> The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps does
> not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
> discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on the latest
> paper someone announces another candidate.
> 
> I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The One.
> There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
> happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are found
> of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other candidates, but
> we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of creature it
> was.
> 
> The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
> Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories that
> somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would be
> unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines for about
> 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I wouldn't
> even hazard a guess.
> 
> Can I have my surprise now?
> 
> B
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
>> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>> 
>> Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised what
>> you find.
>> 
>> Alan C
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: knarf
>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>> 
>> I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I suppose it
>> would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific
> feeling.
>> My opinion really doesn't mean much.
>> 
>> Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter of
>> opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is not an
>> area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> frank
>> 
>> On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>> >You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
>> >"Genetically
>> >we're close to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans" - which, in
>> >your opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion as to who the
>> >common ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm
>> >being cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a conclusion, or
>> >tying to trap me in some way" - not really, I'm trying to establish a
>> >common base so we can further our discourse.
>> >
>> >Alan C
>> >
>> >-Original Message-
>> >From: knarf
>> >Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:10 PM
>> >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> >Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>> >
>> >I don't understand your question. We don't have any "living ancestors"
>> >in
>> >evolutionary terms.
>> >
>> >As I said earlier, we're great apes, so genetically we're close to
>> >chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. But they aren't ancestors or
>> >somehow "below" us. We share a common ancestor and each species has
>> >evolved differently to where we are today.
>> >
>> >I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm being cross-examined here, as if
>> >
>> >you're moving toward a conclusion, or tying to trap me in some way.
>> >
>> >Could we get to the point please?
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >
>> >frank
>> >
>> >On November 25, 2015 11:08:57 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>> >>Which are our closest living ancestors or perhaps those most like us?
>> >>
>> >>Alan C
>> >>
>> >>-Original Message-
>> >>From: knarf
>> >>Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 4:57 PM
>> >>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> >>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>> >>
>> >>I'm not sure exactly what you mean, however humans are animals, great
>> >>apes to be exact, and like every other animal on the face of the
>> >>earth, we have evolved from ancestors to our current form.
>> >>
>> >>Cheers,
>> >>
>> 

Re: dos Pesos - one for Frank one for Paul Sorenson

[Jack Davis]

There may be more there, but I love
this cabin shot!

J
Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 25, 2015, at 10:39 PM, ann sanfedele  wrote:
> 
> Two from1992  LX &  Kodachrome
> 
> Frank -
> here is a friend I made along the Haines Highway in the Yukon
> https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-GcTkPBJ/A
> 
> Paul -
> The Robert Service cabin in Dawson..
> https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-f6MxHC5/A
> 
> Now I'm sorry  I didn't work it more ...
> 
> ann
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> PDML@pdml.net
> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
> the directions.

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to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Alan C]

Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of Rooibos tea 
instead.


It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos & Humans share 
about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between human population groups 
too but there is an incredible web of interbreeding & migration still to be 
unravelled. Those who think the Neanderthals became extinct have it all 
wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!


Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: Bob W-PDML

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 2:19 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

That won't do my gout any good.

B


On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:

Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.

Alan C


-Original Message- From: Bob W
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor

I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this because
I'm curious to see where it's going.

Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos. Since
common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are equally
closely related to both.

Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the 
Third
Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great apes, 
and

talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old book now
so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is still 
an

excellent read.

The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps does
not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on the 
latest

paper someone announces another candidate.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The One.
There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are 
found
of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other candidates, 
but

we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of creature it
was.

The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories that
somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would be
unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines for 
about
40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I 
wouldn't

even hazard a guess.

Can I have my surprise now?

B



-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised 
what

you find.

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: knarf
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I suppose it
would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific

feeling.

My opinion really doesn't mean much.

Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter of
opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is not an
area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.

Cheers,

frank

On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
>"Genetically
>we're close to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans" - which, in
>your opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion as to who the
>common ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm
>being cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a conclusion, or
>tying to trap me in some way" - not really, I'm trying to establish a
>common base so we can further our discourse.
>
>Alan C
>
>-Original Message-
>From: knarf
>Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:10 PM
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>
>I don't understand your question. We don't have any "living ancestors"
>in
>evolutionary terms.
>
>As I said earlier, we're great apes, so genetically we're close to
>chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. But they aren't ancestors or
>somehow "below" us. We share a common ancestor and each species has
>evolved differently to where we are today.
>
>I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm being cross-examined here, as if
>
>you're moving toward a conclusion, or tying to trap me in some way.
>
>Could we get to the point please?
>
>Thanks,
>
>frank
>
>On November 25, 2015 11:08:57 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>>Which are our closest living ancestors or perhaps those most like us?
>>
>>Alan C
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: knarf
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 4:57 PM
>>To: 

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[knarf]

The key to what? 

Cheers,

frank 

On November 26, 2015 7:58:51 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of Rooibos tea 
>instead.
>
>It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos & Humans
>share 
>about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between human population
>groups 
>too but there is an incredible web of interbreeding & migration still
>to be 
>unravelled. Those who think the Neanderthals became extinct have it all
>
>wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!
>
>Alan C
>
>-Original Message- 
>From: Bob W-PDML
>Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 2:19 PM
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>
>That won't do my gout any good.
>
>B
>
>> On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:
>>
>> Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.
>>
>> Alan C
>>
>>
>> -Original Message- From: Bob W
>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
>> To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
>> Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor
>>
>> I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this
>because
>> I'm curious to see where it's going.
>>
>> Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos.
>Since
>> common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are
>equally
>> closely related to both.
>>
>> Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the
>
>> Third
>> Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great
>apes, 
>> and
>> talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old
>book now
>> so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is
>still 
>> an
>> excellent read.
>>
>> The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps
>does
>> not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
>> discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on the
>
>> latest
>> paper someone announces another candidate.
>>
>> I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The
>One.
>> There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
>> happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are
>
>> found
>> of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other
>candidates, 
>> but
>> we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of
>creature it
>> was.
>>
>> The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
>> Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories
>that
>> somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would
>be
>> unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines
>for 
>> about
>> 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I 
>> wouldn't
>> even hazard a guess.
>>
>> Can I have my surprise now?
>>
>> B
>>
>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
>>> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>>
>>> Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be
>surprised 
>>> what
>>> you find.
>>>
>>> Alan C
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: knarf
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>>
>>> I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I
>suppose it
>>> would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific
>> feeling.
>>> My opinion really doesn't mean much.
>>>
>>> Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter
>of
>>> opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is
>not an
>>> area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> frank
>>>
>>> On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C 
>wrote:
>>> >You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
>>> >"Genetically
>>> >we're close to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans" - which,
>in
>>> >your opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion as to who
>the
>>> >common ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather feel as if
>I'm
>>> >being cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a conclusion,
>or
>>> >tying to trap me in some way" - not really, I'm trying to establish
>a
>>> >common base so we can further our discourse.
>>> >
>>> >Alan C
>>> >
>>> >-Original Message-
>>> >From: knarf
>>> >Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:10 PM
>>> >To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>> >Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>> >
>>> >I don't understand your question. We don't have any "living
>ancestors"
>>> >in
>>> >evolutionary terms.
>>> >
>>> >As I said earlier, we're great apes, so genetically we're close to
>>> >chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. But they aren't ancestors
>or
>>> >somehow "below" us. We share a common ancestor and each species 

OT: another "lost" photographer on exhibit...

[Stanley Halpin]

Actually, this is a bit more ON topic than some of the recent exchanges! (-;

So anyway, the NY Times today has an interesting article on Lee Miller, a woman 
who started as a fashion model in  the 1920-30s, then became a photographer. 
Wartime photographer from London. Documented D-Day, the concentration camps, 
and much in between. The article has a reference to an on-going exhibit of her 
work at the Imperial War Museum/London. 

http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUsCgjL/OB2Oq_id=58905b9799479c6b6bf7ec697774f125_type=eta_id=1448547689474409_id=0

Happy Thanksgiving all!

stan


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Re: dos Pesos - one for Frank one for Paul Sorenson

[Darren Addy]

Looks like a lovely area to spend some time with a little food, a good
book, and a nice camera kit. :)

On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 6:22 AM, Jack Davis  wrote:
> There may be more there, but I love
> this cabin shot!
>
> J
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Nov 25, 2015, at 10:39 PM, ann sanfedele  wrote:
>>
>> Two from1992  LX &  Kodachrome
>>
>> Frank -
>> here is a friend I made along the Haines Highway in the Yukon
>> https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-GcTkPBJ/A
>>
>> Paul -
>> The Robert Service cabin in Dawson..
>> https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-f6MxHC5/A
>>
>> Now I'm sorry  I didn't work it more ...
>>
>> ann
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
>> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and 
>> follow the directions.
>
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> the directions.



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Re: OT: another "lost" photographer on exhibit...

[Bruce Walker]

Thank you, Stan. A welcome gift.

On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 9:41 AM, Stanley Halpin
 wrote:
> Actually, this is a bit more ON topic than some of the recent exchanges! (-;
>
> So anyway, the NY Times today has an interesting article on Lee Miller, a 
> woman who started as a fashion model in  the 1920-30s, then became a 
> photographer. Wartime photographer from London. Documented D-Day, the 
> concentration camps, and much in between. The article has a reference to an 
> on-going exhibit of her work at the Imperial War Museum/London.
>
> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUsCgjL/OB2Oq_id=58905b9799479c6b6bf7ec697774f125_type=eta_id=1448547689474409_id=0
>
> Happy Thanksgiving all!
>
> stan
>
>
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> the directions.



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RE: another "lost" photographer on exhibit...

[Bob W]

I wouldn't describe her as 'lost'. She's been very well known since the
20s/30s and an associate, often lover, of some of the greatest artists of
the 20th century. She was traumatized by her experiences during the war and
her son didn't find out about her life as a photographer until after her
death when he was sorting out her stuff, but that was at the end of the
1970s. He published a book about her in the 1980s, which is when I first
became aware of her and she has certainly been well-known since over here. 

I went to the exhibition earlier this month with some friends, some of whom
indeed had not heard of her before, but most of whom had. It's a superb
exhibition, well worth the £10- entry fee.

B

> -Original Message-
> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Stanley Halpin
> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 2:42 PM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> Subject: OT: another "lost" photographer on exhibit...
> 
> Actually, this is a bit more ON topic than some of the recent exchanges!
(-;
> 
> So anyway, the NY Times today has an interesting article on Lee Miller, a
> woman who started as a fashion model in  the 1920-30s, then became a
> photographer. Wartime photographer from London. Documented D-Day, the
> concentration camps, and much in between. The article has a reference to
an
> on-going exhibit of her work at the Imperial War Museum/London.
> 
> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUsCgjL/O
> B2Oq_id=58905b9799479c6b6bf7ec697774f125_type=eta_
> id=1448547689474409_id=0
> 
> Happy Thanksgiving all!
> 
> stan
> 
> 
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> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
> follow the directions.

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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Alan C]

Identifying a common ancestor.

Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: knarf

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 3:15 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

The key to what?

Cheers,

frank

On November 26, 2015 7:58:51 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:

Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of Rooibos tea
instead.

It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos & Humans
share
about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between human population
groups
too but there is an incredible web of interbreeding & migration still
to be
unravelled. Those who think the Neanderthals became extinct have it all

wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!

Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: Bob W-PDML

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 2:19 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

That won't do my gout any good.

B


On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:

Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.

Alan C


-Original Message- From: Bob W
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor

I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this

because

I'm curious to see where it's going.

Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos.

Since

common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are

equally

closely related to both.

Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the



Third
Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great

apes,

and
talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old

book now

so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is

still

an
excellent read.

The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps

does

not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on the



latest
paper someone announces another candidate.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The

One.

There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are



found
of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other

candidates,

but
we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of

creature it

was.

The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories

that

somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would

be

unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines

for

about
40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I
wouldn't
even hazard a guess.

Can I have my surprise now?

B



-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be

surprised

what
you find.

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: knarf
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I

suppose it

would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific

feeling.

My opinion really doesn't mean much.

Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter

of

opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is

not an

area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.

Cheers,

frank

On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C 

wrote:

>You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
>"Genetically
>we're close to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans" - which,

in

>your opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion as to who

the

>common ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather feel as if

I'm

>being cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a conclusion,

or

>tying to trap me in some way" - not really, I'm trying to establish

a

>common base so we can further our discourse.
>
>Alan C
>
>-Original Message-
>From: knarf
>Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:10 PM
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>
>I don't understand your question. We don't have any "living

ancestors"

>in
>evolutionary terms.
>
>As I said earlier, we're great apes, so genetically we're close to
>chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. But they aren't ancestors

or

>somehow "below" us. We share a common ancestor and each species has
>evolved differently to where we are today.
>
>I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm being cross-examined here,

as if

>
>you're moving toward a conclusion, or tying to trap me in 

Re: dos Pesos - one for Frank one for Paul Sorenson

[ann sanfedele]

Frank showed us his Coyote friend a while back .. in the snow.. I 
mentioned mine to him

He'll get it..

(for a minute I thought I sent the wrong link )

ann

On 11/26/2015 7:16 AM, Jack Davis wrote:

Coyote?

J





Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 25, 2015, at 10:39 PM, ann sanfedele  wrote:

Two from1992  LX &  Kodachrome

Frank -
here is a friend I made along the Haines Highway in the Yukon
https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-GcTkPBJ/A

Paul -
The Robert Service cabin in Dawson..
https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-f6MxHC5/A

Now I'm sorry  I didn't work it more ...

ann



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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[knarf]

While I find that subject to be mildly interesting, it's really of no 
consequence to me who our common ancestor is. It seems very important to you. 
Would you mind telling us why?

Thanks,

frank

On November 26, 2015 10:28:06 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>Identifying a common ancestor.
>
>Alan C
>
>-Original Message- 
>From: knarf
>Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 3:15 PM
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>
>The key to what?
>
>Cheers,
>
>frank
>
>On November 26, 2015 7:58:51 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>>Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of Rooibos tea
>>instead.
>>
>>It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos & Humans
>>share
>>about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between human population
>>groups
>>too but there is an incredible web of interbreeding & migration still
>>to be
>>unravelled. Those who think the Neanderthals became extinct have it
>all
>>
>>wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!
>>
>>Alan C
>>
>>-Original Message- 
>>From: Bob W-PDML
>>Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 2:19 PM
>>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>
>>That won't do my gout any good.
>>
>>B
>>
>>> On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:
>>>
>>> Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.
>>>
>>> Alan C
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message- From: Bob W
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
>>> To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
>>> Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor
>>>
>>> I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this
>>because
>>> I'm curious to see where it's going.
>>>
>>> Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos.
>>Since
>>> common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are
>>equally
>>> closely related to both.
>>>
>>> Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of
>the
>>
>>> Third
>>> Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great
>>apes,
>>> and
>>> talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old
>>book now
>>> so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is
>>still
>>> an
>>> excellent read.
>>>
>>> The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps
>>does
>>> not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
>>> discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on
>the
>>
>>> latest
>>> paper someone announces another candidate.
>>>
>>> I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The
>>One.
>>> There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
>>> happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils
>are
>>
>>> found
>>> of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other
>>candidates,
>>> but
>>> we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of
>>creature it
>>> was.
>>>
>>> The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
>>> Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories
>>that
>>> somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would
>>be
>>> unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines
>>for
>>> about
>>> 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I
>>> wouldn't
>>> even hazard a guess.
>>>
>>> Can I have my surprise now?
>>>
>>> B
>>>
>>>
 -Original Message-
 From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
 Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
 Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

 Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be
>>surprised
 what
 you find.

 Alan C

 -Original Message-
 From: knarf
 Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

 I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I
>>suppose it
 would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific
>>> feeling.
 My opinion really doesn't mean much.

 Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter
>>of
 opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is
>>not an
 area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.

 Cheers,

 frank

 On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C 
>>wrote:
 >You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
 >"Genetically
 >we're close to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans" - which,
>>in
 >your opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion as to
>who
>>the
 >common ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather feel as if
>>I'm
 >being cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a
>conclusion,
>>or
 >tying to trap me in some way" - not really, 

PESO 2015 - 175 - GDG

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

From recently processed film … on a neighborhood walk: 

  https://flic.kr/p/B62hrA

enjoy, G
---
  "The fact that nobody understands you doesn't make you an artist."


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A Thanksgiving Message

[Paul Stenquist]

Happy Thanksgiving to the U.S. contingent and happy Thursday to the rest of us. 
Perhaps It’s due to my heightened emotional state, but I found this column in 
today’s Times deeply moving. It’s a great bit of writing as well:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/opinion/freeing-thanksgiving-from-my-family.html?action=click=Homepage=story-heading=opinion-c-col-right-region=opinion-c-col-right-region=opinion-c-col-right-region&_r=1


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Thanksgiving

[John]

I wish you all a happy Thanksgiving whether you celebrate the American
holiday or not. I hope you will all have a good day with someone you love
and with someone who loves you.

--
Science - Questions we may never find answers for.
Religion - Answers we must never question.

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Re: New iMac 5K: M380 vs. M390 graphics

[John]

Get the one that's going to be easier to expand & upgrade as it gets older.

On 11/25/2015 1:38 PM, Bryan Jacoby wrote:

I am thinking of buying a new 27" iMac, one of the standard
configurations (so I can get a discount this weekend).  I'm looking at
the base and middle option.  The differences are:

AMD M380 vs. M390 graphics
1 TB 7200 RPM HD vs. 1 TB fusion drive
$200

Photo editing (lightroom) is probably the heaviest lifting the machine
will do.  I know that Lr can use the GPU but I haven't been able to
find much information about the difference between the M380 and M390.

Now that the SSD component of the fusion drive is only 24 GB I'm not
sure how much of an advantage that is over the straight HD.  If I get
the straight HD I will almost certainly use an external Thunderbolt
SSD for most things, and use the internal drive for photo + music
libraries.  If I get the fusion drive, maybe that will be fast enough
on its own, I'm not sure.  If it's not and I still end up with the
external SSD boot drive, I'm wondering if the fusion drive will
actually be worse for photo and music libraries since it is presumably
a 5400 RPM drive.

(I guess, for the price of the middle M390 + 1 TB fusion drive model +
external Thunderbolt SSD, I could get the top standard configuration
with M395 + 2 TB fusion drive + slightly faster processor.  The 2 TB
fusion drive has 128 GB of flash.  I'm just not sure how that would
perform compared to an SSD boot drive).

Thanks for any advice.



--
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Religion - Answers we must never question.

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RE: PESO - The Protestor

[Bob W]

Not too keen on rooibos tea, but in the interests of cultural harmony I'll
take a sip.

That 70% figure is not the figure that orthodox science quotes:
<
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/permanent-exhibitions/human-origins-and-cult
ural-halls/Anne-and-Bernard-Spitzer-Hall-of-Human-Origins/understanding-our-
past/dna-comparing-humans-and-chimps>

70% seems to be a number that some people have latched onto to try and show
that there hasn't been enough time for evolution to do its dirty work. It's
rather a bizarre thing to do because they seem to be trying to have their
cake and eat it. In order to make the argument they have to accept that
evolution works in a certain way and then show that some relatively
unimportant facts (70% versus 98.whatever %) mean the whole theory is wrong.

B

> -Original Message-
> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 12:59 PM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
> 
> Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of Rooibos tea
instead.
> 
> It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos & Humans share
> about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between human population
> groups too but there is an incredible web of interbreeding & migration
still to
> be unravelled. Those who think the Neanderthals became extinct have it all
> wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!
> 
> Alan C
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Bob W-PDML
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 2:19 PM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
> 
> That won't do my gout any good.
> 
> B
> 
> > On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:
> >
> > Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.
> >
> > Alan C
> >
> >
> > -Original Message- From: Bob W
> > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
> > To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
> > Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor
> >
> > I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this
> > because I'm curious to see where it's going.
> >
> > Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos. Since
> > common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are
> > equally closely related to both.
> >
> > Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the
> > Third Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other)
> > great apes, and talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's
> > quite an old book now so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably
> > outdated, but it is still an excellent read.
> >
> > The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps
> > does not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates,
> > but discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on
> > the latest paper someone announces another candidate.
> >
> > I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The One.
> > There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
> > happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are
> > found of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other
> > candidates, but we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the
> > type of creature it was.
> >
> > The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
> > Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories
> > that somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance
> > would be unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the
> > sidelines for about
> > 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I
> > wouldn't even hazard a guess.
> >
> > Can I have my surprise now?
> >
> > B
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
> >> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
> >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> >> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
> >>
> >> Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised
> >> what you find.
> >>
> >> Alan C
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: knarf
> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
> >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> >> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
> >>
> >> I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I
> >> suppose it would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a
> >> non-scientific
> > feeling.
> >> My opinion really doesn't mean much.
> >>
> >> Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter of
> >> opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is
> >> not an area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest
in.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> frank
> >>
> >> On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C  wrote:
> >> >You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
> >> >"Genetically
> >> >we're 

Re: Have we slipped into an alternative universe?

[John]

Just try to find any kind of shoe, running or otherwise, in a 9-1/2 
extra wide.



On 11/25/2015 10:27 PM, Alan C wrote:

Too true. Try to find one who is expert on running shoes.

Alan C

-Original Message- From: John Francis
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:43 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: Have we slipped into an alternative universe?

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 01:49:17PM -0600, Darren Addy wrote:

> Just think how many Pentax would sell if they were available in stores!

Sadly, that would not be enough. The salespeople would still need to
show them (and know them) or else they are going to steer customers to
brands that they know something about.


s/they know something about/pay them an incentive to promote that brand/

Noways it's practically impossible to find a salesperson who actually
knows anything about the product they are selling, let alone one who
will use that knowledge to make a decision that is best for the customer.




--
Science - Questions we may never find answers for.
Religion - Answers we must never question.

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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Alan C]

I wouldn't say it is particularly important to me but I have taken an 
interest in human evolution since my schooldays. I suppose that living in 
this part of the world where Sterkfontein is considered the most likely 
origin of hominids and also the fact that the San are an ancient family of 
man still living in an iron age time warp in parts of Namibia & Botswana are 
major factors. Sadly, the San have all been "contaminated" to some degree by 
contact with "civilisation". Most San were killed off by the advancing Nguni 
tribes in the middle ages. Their rock art is their legacy & shows how they 
lived in harmony with nature. The San (like the natives of North America) 
are the rightful owners of the land but get scant recognition nor does their 
language which has all but died out.


Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: knarf

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 5:39 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

While I find that subject to be mildly interesting, it's really of no 
consequence to me who our common ancestor is. It seems very important to 
you. Would you mind telling us why?


Thanks,

frank

On November 26, 2015 10:28:06 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:

Identifying a common ancestor.

Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: knarf

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 3:15 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

The key to what?

Cheers,

frank

On November 26, 2015 7:58:51 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:

Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of Rooibos tea
instead.

It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos & Humans
share
about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between human population
groups
too but there is an incredible web of interbreeding & migration still
to be
unravelled. Those who think the Neanderthals became extinct have it

all


wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!

Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: Bob W-PDML

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 2:19 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

That won't do my gout any good.

B


On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:

Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.

Alan C


-Original Message- From: Bob W
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor

I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this

because

I'm curious to see where it's going.

Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos.

Since

common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are

equally

closely related to both.

Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of

the



Third
Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great

apes,

and
talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old

book now

so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is

still

an
excellent read.

The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps

does

not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on

the



latest
paper someone announces another candidate.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The

One.

There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils

are



found
of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other

candidates,

but
we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of

creature it

was.

The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories

that

somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would

be

unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines

for

about
40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I
wouldn't
even hazard a guess.

Can I have my surprise now?

B



-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be

surprised

what
you find.

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: knarf
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I

suppose it

would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific

feeling.

My opinion really doesn't mean much.

Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter

of

opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is

not an

area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.

Cheers,

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[John]

You didn't miss anything other than a lot of shouting, confused running
back & forth and standing around for hours at a time waiting for someone
to get an idea.

On 11/25/2015 11:43 PM, knarf wrote:

No, I've never been in the military.

Cheers,

frank

On November 25, 2015 10:30:36 PM EST, Alan C  wrote:

You were in the army?

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: knarf
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:02 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I have an army parka made with no animal products that somehow manages
to
not frost up. It has a "tunnel", too.

Cheers,

frank

On November 25, 2015 2:31:45 PM EST, Paul  wrote:

I have one of those parkas.  When the hood is fully zipped there's
actually a short "tunnel" of more moderate temperature air between

your


face and the outside.  Supposedly wolf fur was the only trim that
wouldn't frost up in those cold temperatures.

-p

On 11/25/2015 12:45 PM, John wrote:

Wolf fur used to be the preferred trim for the hoods on heavy

parkas,

particularly the ones the Army & Air Force issued to personnel

stationed

near the arctic circle.

Frank mentioned that fur trim on parkas and coats was making a
resurgence. I don't know if the stores are selling wolf fur or not,

but

that's what the image called to my mind.

For all I know it may be an image of coyotes. Whether it's Wolves or
Coyotes doesn't make much difference to me, but that particular

image

was NOT rodents.

Whichever way the political winds are blowing, I know a hawk from a
handsaw.


On 11/24/2015 11:39 PM, Ken Waller wrote:

It is available from several Alaskan sources.

I've considered buying a wolf pelt.


-Original Message-

From: "Daniel J. Matyola" 
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

No store sells wolf fur.  Pure propaganda.

Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 9:36 PM, John 

wrote:

I think that's wolf fur.


On 11/23/2015 11:47 PM, Daniel J. Matyola wrote:


Children are dying of malnutrition;  they protest about rodents.


Dan Matyola
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/danieljmatyola


On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 7:43 PM, frank theriault
 wrote:


As we walked downtown yesterday we saw a bunch of police cars

in

front
of Holt's, a very upscale department store. An animal rights

group

was
protesting fur in general, but also the fact that Holt's sells

it:


I'll likely have a gallery later in the week, but until then,

this

kind of sums it up:

http://knarfinthecity.blogspot.ca/2015/11/the-protestor.html

Fur trim on parkas and coats is unfortunately seeing a

resurgence

around these parts. I'll keep political thoughts to myself.

Hope you enjoy. Comments welcome.

cheers,

frank







--
Science - Questions we may never find answers for.
Religion - Answers we must never question.

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to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Alan C]

It's very refreshing, caffeine free & full of antioxidants. I must say it is 
an acquired taste, especially if you're accustomed to Ceylon. Blends with 
other herbs are available too. I drink a Rooibos/Buchu blend. Some people 
like it iced.


Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: Bob W

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:31 PM
To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor

Not too keen on rooibos tea, but in the interests of cultural harmony I'll
take a sip.

That 70% figure is not the figure that orthodox science quotes:
<
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/permanent-exhibitions/human-origins-and-cult
ural-halls/Anne-and-Bernard-Spitzer-Hall-of-Human-Origins/understanding-our-
past/dna-comparing-humans-and-chimps>

70% seems to be a number that some people have latched onto to try and show
that there hasn't been enough time for evolution to do its dirty work. It's
rather a bizarre thing to do because they seem to be trying to have their
cake and eat it. In order to make the argument they have to accept that
evolution works in a certain way and then show that some relatively
unimportant facts (70% versus 98.whatever %) mean the whole theory is wrong.

B


-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 12:59 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of Rooibos tea

instead.


It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos & Humans share
about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between human population
groups too but there is an incredible web of interbreeding & migration

still to

be unravelled. Those who think the Neanderthals became extinct have it all
wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: Bob W-PDML
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 2:19 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

That won't do my gout any good.

B

> On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:
>
> Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.
>
> Alan C
>
>
> -Original Message- From: Bob W
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
> To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
> Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor
>
> I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this
> because I'm curious to see where it's going.
>
> Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos. Since
> common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are
> equally closely related to both.
>
> Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the
> Third Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other)
> great apes, and talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's
> quite an old book now so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably
> outdated, but it is still an excellent read.
>
> The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps
> does not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates,
> but discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on
> the latest paper someone announces another candidate.
>
> I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The One.
> There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
> happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are
> found of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other
> candidates, but we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the
> type of creature it was.
>
> The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
> Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories
> that somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance
> would be unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the
> sidelines for about
> 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I
> wouldn't even hazard a guess.
>
> Can I have my surprise now?
>
> B
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
>> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>
>> Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised
>> what you find.
>>
>> Alan C
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: knarf
>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>
>> I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I
>> suppose it would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a
>> non-scientific
> feeling.
>> My opinion really doesn't mean much.
>>
>> Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter of
>> opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is
>> not an area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest

in.

>>
>> 

Re: OT: another "lost" photographer on exhibit...

[John]

I wish they'd been able to show a little more of her work with the
article. It's unlikely I'll get to see the exhibit, and unfortunately
it's now the season when I won't be buying gifts for myself, so I won't
have a chance to get the book.

Maybe later if I don't forget it, but most likely I will.

On 11/26/2015 9:41 AM, Stanley Halpin wrote:

Actually, this is a bit more ON topic than some of the recent
exchanges! (-;

So anyway, the NY Times today has an interesting article on Lee
Miller, a woman who started as a fashion model in  the 1920-30s, then
became a photographer. Wartime photographer from London. Documented
D-Day, the concentration camps, and much in between. The article has
a reference to an on-going exhibit of her work at the Imperial War
Museum/London.
http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUsCgjL/OB2Oq_id=58905b9799479c6b6bf7ec697774f125_type=eta_id=1448547689474409_id=0

Happy Thanksgiving all!

stan




--
Science - Questions we may never find answers for.
Religion - Answers we must never question.

--
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to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[ann sanfedele]

Off to a friend's for thanksgiving dinner... but Have to bop in for a 
moment  as I love, love , love Rooibos tea...
especially witha bit of  cinnamon in it... and for those of you in NOrth 
American,whole foods, normaill whole Paycheck, has
40 Tea bags for $4.00 US of a rooibos with vanilla that has become my 
evening drink - 4 or 5 cups a day. YUm!


Happy turkey day everyone

ann

On 11/26/2015 11:48 AM, Alan C wrote:
It's very refreshing, caffeine free & full of antioxidants. I must say 
it is an acquired taste, especially if you're accustomed to Ceylon. 
Blends with other herbs are available too. I drink a Rooibos/Buchu 
blend. Some people like it iced.


Alan C

-Original Message- From: Bob W
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:31 PM
To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor

Not too keen on rooibos tea, but in the interests of cultural harmony 
I'll

take a sip.

That 70% figure is not the figure that orthodox science quotes:
<
http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/permanent-exhibitions/human-origins-and-cult 

ural-halls/Anne-and-Bernard-Spitzer-Hall-of-Human-Origins/understanding-our- 


past/dna-comparing-humans-and-chimps>

70% seems to be a number that some people have latched onto to try and 
show
that there hasn't been enough time for evolution to do its dirty work. 
It's

rather a bizarre thing to do because they seem to be trying to have their
cake and eat it. In order to make the argument they have to accept that
evolution works in a certain way and then show that some relatively
unimportant facts (70% versus 98.whatever %) mean the whole theory is 
wrong.


B


-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 12:59 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of Rooibos tea

instead.


It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos & Humans 
share

about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between human population
groups too but there is an incredible web of interbreeding & migration

still to
be unravelled. Those who think the Neanderthals became extinct have 
it all

wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: Bob W-PDML
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 2:19 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

That won't do my gout any good.

B

> On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:
>
> Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.
>
> Alan C
>
>
> -Original Message- From: Bob W
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
> To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
> Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor
>
> I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this
> because I'm curious to see where it's going.
>
> Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos. Since
> common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are
> equally closely related to both.
>
> Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the
> Third Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other)
> great apes, and talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's
> quite an old book now so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably
> outdated, but it is still an excellent read.
>
> The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps
> does not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates,
> but discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on
> the latest paper someone announces another candidate.
>
> I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The 
One.

> There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
> happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are
> found of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other
> candidates, but we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the
> type of creature it was.
>
> The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
> Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories
> that somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance
> would be unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the
> sidelines for about
> 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I
> wouldn't even hazard a guess.
>
> Can I have my surprise now?
>
> B
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
>> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>
>> Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised
>> what you find.
>>
>> Alan C
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: knarf
>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> Subject: Re: PESO - The 

RE: OT: another "lost" photographer on exhibit...

[Bob W]

http://www.leemiller.co.uk/


> -Original Message-
> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John
> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 4:56 PM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> Subject: Re: OT: another "lost" photographer on exhibit...
> 
> I wish they'd been able to show a little more of her work with the
article. It's
> unlikely I'll get to see the exhibit, and unfortunately it's now the
season
> when I won't be buying gifts for myself, so I won't have a chance to get
the
> book.
> 
> Maybe later if I don't forget it, but most likely I will.
> 
> On 11/26/2015 9:41 AM, Stanley Halpin wrote:
> > Actually, this is a bit more ON topic than some of the recent
> > exchanges! (-;
> >
> > So anyway, the NY Times today has an interesting article on Lee
> > Miller, a woman who started as a fashion model in  the 1920-30s, then
> > became a photographer. Wartime photographer from London.
> Documented
> > D-Day, the concentration camps, and much in between. The article has a
> > reference to an on-going exhibit of her work at the Imperial War
> > Museum/London.
> >
> http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUsCgjL/O
> B2O
> >
> q_id=58905b9799479c6b6bf7ec697774f125_type=eta_id=1
> 448
> > 547689474409_id=0
> >
> > Happy Thanksgiving all!
> >
> > stan
> >
> >
> 
> --
> Science - Questions we may never find answers for.
> Religion - Answers we must never question.
> 
> --
> PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> PDML@pdml.net
> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
> follow the directions.

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net
http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

RE: PESO - The Protestor

[Bob W]

So just like normal work then?

> -Original Message-
> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John
> 
> You didn't miss anything other than a lot of shouting, confused running
back
> & forth and standing around for hours at a time waiting for someone to get
> an idea.
> 
> On 11/25/2015 11:43 PM, knarf wrote:
> > No, I've never been in the military.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > frank

-- 
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
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http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[John]

Don't you want to know if he left us anything in his will?

On 11/26/2015 10:39 AM, knarf wrote:

While I find that subject to be mildly interesting, it's really of no
consequence to me who our common ancestor is. It seems very important
to you. Would you mind telling us why?

Thanks,

frank

On November 26, 2015 10:28:06 AM EST, Alan C 
wrote:

Identifying a common ancestor.

Alan C

-Original Message- From: knarf Sent: Thursday, November 26,
2015 3:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: PESO - The
Protestor

The key to what?

Cheers,

frank

On November 26, 2015 7:58:51 AM EST, Alan C 
wrote:

Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of
Rooibos tea instead.

It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos &
Humans share about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between
human population groups too but there is an incredible web of
interbreeding & migration still to be unravelled. Those who think
the Neanderthals became extinct have it

all


wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!

Alan C

-Original Message- From: Bob W-PDML Sent: Thursday,
November 26, 2015 2:19 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject:
Re: PESO - The Protestor

That won't do my gout any good.

B


On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:

Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in
lard.

Alan C


-Original Message- From: Bob W Sent: Thursday, November
26, 2015 12:43 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE:
PESO - The Protestor

I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering
this

because

I'm curious to see where it's going.

Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to
bonobos.

Since

common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we
are

equally

closely related to both.

Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall
of

the



Third Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the
(other) great

apes,

and talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite
an old

book now

so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but
it is

still

an excellent read.

The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and
chimps

does

not seem to have been settled yet. There are several
candidates, but discoveries seem to happen so often that before
the ink is dry on

the



latest paper someone announces another candidate.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify
The

One.

There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of
speciations happening around the estimated time of the split.
Even if fossils

are



found of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the
other

candidates,

but we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type
of

creature it

was.

The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya,
and Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different
theories

that

somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance
would

be

unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the
sidelines

for

about 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates
sidelined I wouldn't even hazard a guess.

Can I have my surprise now?

B



-Original Message- From: PDML
[mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C Sent:
Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail
List  Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be

surprised

what you find.

Alan C

-Original Message- From: knarf Sent: Thursday,
November 26, 2015 6:52 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans.
I

suppose it

would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a
non-scientific

feeling.

My opinion really doesn't mean much.

Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a
matter

of

opinion. However I have no idea who that might be.
Paleontology is

not an

area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest
in.

Cheers,

frank

On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C


wrote:

You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been
better. "Genetically we're close to chimps, bonobos,
gorillas and orangutans" - which,

in

your opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion
as to

who

the

common ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather
feel as if

I'm

being cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a

conclusion,

or

tying to trap me in some way" - not really, I'm trying to

establish

a

common base so we can further our discourse.

Alan C

-Original Message- From: knarf Sent: Wednesday,
November 25, 2015 10:10 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I don't understand your question. We don't have any
"living

ancestors"

in evolutionary terms.

As I said earlier, we're great apes, so 

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[John]

My arteries are starting to harden just from reading that.

On 11/26/2015 7:00 AM, Alan C wrote:

Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.

Alan C


-Original Message- From: Bob W
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor

I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this because
I'm curious to see where it's going.

Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos. Since
common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are equally
closely related to both.

Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the Third
Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great apes, and
talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old book now
so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is
still an
excellent read.

The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps does
not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on the
latest
paper someone announces another candidate.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The One.
There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are found
of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other candidates, but
we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of creature it
was.

The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories that
somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would be
unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines for
about
40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I wouldn't
even hazard a guess.

Can I have my surprise now?

B



-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised
what
you find.

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: knarf
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I suppose it
would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific

feeling.

My opinion really doesn't mean much.

Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter of
opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is not an
area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.

Cheers,

frank

On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
>"Genetically
>we're close to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans" - which, in
>your opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion as to who the
>common ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm
>being cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a conclusion, or
>tying to trap me in some way" - not really, I'm trying to establish a
>common base so we can further our discourse.
>
>Alan C
>
>-Original Message-
>From: knarf
>Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:10 PM
>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>
>I don't understand your question. We don't have any "living ancestors"
>in
>evolutionary terms.
>
>As I said earlier, we're great apes, so genetically we're close to
>chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. But they aren't ancestors or
>somehow "below" us. We share a common ancestor and each species has
>evolved differently to where we are today.
>
>I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm being cross-examined here, as if
>
>you're moving toward a conclusion, or tying to trap me in some way.
>
>Could we get to the point please?
>
>Thanks,
>
>frank
>
>On November 25, 2015 11:08:57 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>>Which are our closest living ancestors or perhaps those most like us?
>>
>>Alan C
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: knarf
>>Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 4:57 PM
>>To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>
>>I'm not sure exactly what you mean, however humans are animals, great
>>apes to be exact, and like every other animal on the face of the
>>earth, we have evolved from ancestors to our current form.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>frank
>>
>>
>>
>>On November 25, 2015 9:41:37 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>>>Do you consider humans to be part of the evolutionary scale?
>>>
>>>Alan C





--
Science - Questions we may never find answers for.
Religion - Answers we must never question.

--
PDML Pentax-Discuss Mail List
PDML@pdml.net

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Bob W-PDML]

A large stone and a termite stick, and even that caused a family feud

B

> On 26 Nov 2015, at 17:11, John  wrote:
> 
> Don't you want to know if he left us anything in his will?
> 
>> On 11/26/2015 10:39 AM, knarf wrote:
>> While I find that subject to be mildly interesting, it's really of no
>> consequence to me who our common ancestor is. It seems very important
>> to you. Would you mind telling us why?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> frank
>> 
>> On November 26, 2015 10:28:06 AM EST, Alan C 
>> wrote:
>>> Identifying a common ancestor.
>>> 
>>> Alan C
>>> 
>>> -Original Message- From: knarf Sent: Thursday, November 26,
>>> 2015 3:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: PESO - The
>>> Protestor
>>> 
>>> The key to what?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> frank
>>> 
>>> On November 26, 2015 7:58:51 AM EST, Alan C 
>>> wrote:
 Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of
 Rooibos tea instead.
 
 It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos &
 Humans share about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between
 human population groups too but there is an incredible web of
 interbreeding & migration still to be unravelled. Those who think
 the Neanderthals became extinct have it
>>> all
 
 wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!
 
 Alan C
 
 -Original Message- From: Bob W-PDML Sent: Thursday,
 November 26, 2015 2:19 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject:
 Re: PESO - The Protestor
 
 That won't do my gout any good.
 
 B
 
> On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:
> 
> Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in
> lard.
> 
> Alan C
> 
> 
> -Original Message- From: Bob W Sent: Thursday, November
> 26, 2015 12:43 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE:
> PESO - The Protestor
> 
> I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering
> this
 because
> I'm curious to see where it's going.
> 
> Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to
> bonobos.
 Since
> common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we
> are
 equally
> closely related to both.
> 
> Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall
> of
>>> the
 
> Third Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the
> (other) great
 apes,
> and talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite
> an old
 book now
> so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but
> it is
 still
> an excellent read.
> 
> The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and
> chimps
 does
> not seem to have been settled yet. There are several
> candidates, but discoveries seem to happen so often that before
> the ink is dry on
>>> the
 
> latest paper someone announces another candidate.
> 
> I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify
> The
 One.
> There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of
> speciations happening around the estimated time of the split.
> Even if fossils
>>> are
 
> found of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the
> other
 candidates,
> but we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type
> of
 creature it
> was.
> 
> The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya,
> and Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different
> theories
 that
> somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance
> would
 be
> unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the
> sidelines
 for
> about 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates
> sidelined I wouldn't even hazard a guess.
> 
> Can I have my surprise now?
> 
> B
> 
> 
>> -Original Message- From: PDML
>> [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C Sent:
>> Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail
>> List  Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>> 
>> Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be
 surprised
>> what you find.
>> 
>> Alan C
>> 
>> -Original Message- From: knarf Sent: Thursday,
>> November 26, 2015 6:52 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>> 
>> I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans.
>> I
 suppose it
>> would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a
>> non-scientific
> feeling.
>> My opinion really doesn't mean much.
>> 
>> Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a
>> matter
 of
>> opinion. However I have no idea who that might be.

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Paul]

Here's the most (or one of the most) recent discoveries of another 
branch or our human family tree.  Named homo naledi, the fossils were 
discovered in 2013 some 100 feet underground in a chamber with very 
difficult access.  Among the interesting elements, besides the location, 
are the existence of complete skeletons and that they appear to have 
been placed there as part of a death ritual, suggesting the development 
of a culture.


http://onwisconsin.uwalumni.com/features/chamberof-discovery/

Nova, broadcast on PBS here in the US, has a documentary on the 
discovery and retrieving a small portion of the thousands of bones. 
It's a couple hours long, but an interesting watch...


http://video.pbs.org/video/2365559270/

-p

On 11/26/2015 4:43 AM, Bob W wrote:

I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this because
I'm curious to see where it's going.

Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos. Since
common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are equally
closely related to both.

Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the Third
Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great apes, and
talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old book now
so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is still an
excellent read.

The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps does
not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on the latest
paper someone announces another candidate.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The One.
There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are found
of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other candidates, but
we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of creature it
was.

The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories that
somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would be
unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines for about
40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I wouldn't
even hazard a guess.

Can I have my surprise now?

B



-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised what
you find.

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: knarf
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I suppose it
would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific

feeling.

My opinion really doesn't mean much.

Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter of
opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is not an
area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.

Cheers,

frank

On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C  wrote:

You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
"Genetically
we're close to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans" - which, in
your opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion as to who the
common ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm
being cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a conclusion, or
tying to trap me in some way" - not really, I'm trying to establish a
common base so we can further our discourse.

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: knarf
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:10 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I don't understand your question. We don't have any "living ancestors"
in
evolutionary terms.

As I said earlier, we're great apes, so genetically we're close to
chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. But they aren't ancestors or
somehow "below" us. We share a common ancestor and each species has
evolved differently to where we are today.

I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm being cross-examined here, as if

you're moving toward a conclusion, or tying to trap me in some way.

Could we get to the point please?

Thanks,

frank

On November 25, 2015 11:08:57 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:

Which are our closest living ancestors or perhaps those most like us?

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: knarf
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 4:57 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, however humans are animals, great
apes to be exact, and like every other animal on the face of the
earth, we have evolved from 

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Alan C]

If you ever get a chance to watch the movie "The God's must be Crazy" you 
will see that it was actually a Coke bottle which caused a San family feud.


From Wikipedia: "Xi and his San tribe are "living well off the land" in the 
Kalahari Desert. They are happy because of their belief that the gods have 
provided plenty of everything, and no one among them has any wants. One day, 
a Coca-Cola bottle is thrown out of an aeroplane and falls to Earth 
unbroken. Initially, Xi's people suppose this strange artefact is a present 
from the gods and find many uses for it. They employ it as a craft tool, 
rolling pin, pestle, blow the top to make music, etc. But unlike anything 
that they have had before, there is only one glass bottle to go around. With 
everyone wanting it at once, they soon find themselves experiencing envy, 
anger, and even violence."


Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: Bob W-PDML

Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 7:34 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

A large stone and a termite stick, and even that caused a family feud

B


On 26 Nov 2015, at 17:11, John  wrote:

Don't you want to know if he left us anything in his will?


On 11/26/2015 10:39 AM, knarf wrote:
While I find that subject to be mildly interesting, it's really of no
consequence to me who our common ancestor is. It seems very important
to you. Would you mind telling us why?

Thanks,

frank

On November 26, 2015 10:28:06 AM EST, Alan C 
wrote:

Identifying a common ancestor.

Alan C

-Original Message- From: knarf Sent: Thursday, November 26,
2015 3:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: PESO - The
Protestor

The key to what?

Cheers,

frank

On November 26, 2015 7:58:51 AM EST, Alan C 
wrote:

Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of
Rooibos tea instead.

It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos &
Humans share about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between
human population groups too but there is an incredible web of
interbreeding & migration still to be unravelled. Those who think
the Neanderthals became extinct have it

all


wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!

Alan C

-Original Message- From: Bob W-PDML Sent: Thursday,
November 26, 2015 2:19 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject:
Re: PESO - The Protestor

That won't do my gout any good.

B


On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:

Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in
lard.

Alan C


-Original Message- From: Bob W Sent: Thursday, November
26, 2015 12:43 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE:
PESO - The Protestor

I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering
this

because

I'm curious to see where it's going.

Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to
bonobos.

Since

common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we
are

equally

closely related to both.

Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall
of

the



Third Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the
(other) great

apes,

and talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite
an old

book now

so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but
it is

still

an excellent read.

The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and
chimps

does

not seem to have been settled yet. There are several
candidates, but discoveries seem to happen so often that before
the ink is dry on

the



latest paper someone announces another candidate.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify
The

One.

There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of
speciations happening around the estimated time of the split.
Even if fossils

are



found of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the
other

candidates,

but we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type
of

creature it

was.

The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya,
and Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different
theories

that

somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance
would

be

unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the
sidelines

for

about 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates
sidelined I wouldn't even hazard a guess.

Can I have my surprise now?

B



-Original Message- From: PDML
[mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C Sent:
Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail
List  Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be

surprised

what you find.

Alan C

-Original Message- From: knarf Sent: Thursday,
November 26, 2015 6:52 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans.
I

suppose it

would be either chimps or bonobos but that's 

Re: A Thanksgiving Message

[Morris Galloway]

If your parents are alive, tell them you love them face to face. If that 
is impossible, call.
If you children are alive, tell them you love them face to face. If that 
is impossible, call.
Never let the importance of your family escape from being right in front 
of your Important Things list.

If you are an American, Happy Thanksgiving!

Re-lurking.
G.



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Re: dos Pesos - one for Frank one for Paul Sorenson

[Paul]

I could happily spend time just relaxing on that front porch...thanks 
for posting it.


-p

On 11/26/2015 12:39 AM, ann sanfedele wrote:

Two from1992  LX &  Kodachrome

Frank -
here is a friend I made along the Haines Highway in the Yukon
https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-GcTkPBJ/A

Paul -
The Robert Service cabin in Dawson..
https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-f6MxHC5/A

Now I'm sorry  I didn't work it more ...

ann





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Being old doesn't seem so old now that I'm old.

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Re: A Thanksgiving Message

[Paul Stenquist]

Thanks Morris. Good to hear from you. As always.

Paul via phone

> On Nov 26, 2015, at 12:54 PM, Morris Galloway  
> wrote:
> 
> If your parents are alive, tell them you love them face to face. If that is 
> impossible, call.
> If you children are alive, tell them you love them face to face. If that is 
> impossible, call.
> Never let the importance of your family escape from being right in front of 
> your Important Things list.
> If you are an American, Happy Thanksgiving!
> 
> Re-lurking.
> G.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
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> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
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Re: So how did I do THIS? Every JPEG looks like different processing...

[Darren Addy]

Well I have assumed my RAW files were OK, but I haven't checked yet.
Now I'm wondering. Will have to check when I get home later this
weekend. I have no explanation for how a RAW file would show
processing like that. I thought a RAW file was a RAW file.

On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 5:37 PM, Steve Sharpe  wrote:
> The same thing happened to me this past summer with my K-3, and I shoot
> exclusively RAW, no JPEGs. But every image was coming out in all these
> otherworldly colours...which Aperture automatically fixed so I didn't
> pay much attention. Then I made some astrophotos and noticed that the
> sky was pink in one exposure, magenta in the next...etc. etc. To get it
> back to reality and I had to reset the camera to the factory defaults
> and then reprogramme it to my preferences.
>
>
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:49:53 +1100, Rob Studdert wrote:
>> I got caught mid event by the "Cross-Processing" demon too using my
>> K3, had me baffled, must have bumped the buttons. I didn't have time
>> to screw about so I reverted to single body shooting and it was a long
>> event, I must have changed lenses 100 times :(
>>
>> On 25 November 2015 at 06:03, John  wrote:
>>> Ok, so SWAG - it's bracketing white balance.
>>>
>>> On 11/23/2015 2:26 PM, Darren Addy wrote:

 Well, here is a screenshot of a section of the JPEGs that will give you an
 idea:

 http://www.antiqueauto.org/assets/randomPost.png



 On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 12:12 PM, John  wrote:
>
> On 11/22/2015 1:13 PM, Darren Addy wrote:
>>
>>
>> Yesterday I enjoyed a little photo safari and then, hearing that a
>> group of Whooping Cranes did not take off as expected on Saturday I
>> raced down to Thayer County to try to get to see them before sundown.
>>
>> Somewhere along the line I accidentally changed some setting (not
>> through the menus) and after that point each JPEG produced looked
>> different than the one before, but each was some sort of extreme
>> in-camera post-processing. I could almost understand it they were all
>> ONE sort of post-processing (like cross-processing) but they were each
>> different.
>>
>> I was shooting in RAW+ so the JPEGs are pretty irrelevant (didn't LOSE
>> anything because of the error, but still annoying).
>>
>> What in the heck did I do so I can avoid doing it again? Any ideas?
>>
>
> Without seeing examples I'd be at a loss to even take a SWAG.
>
> ---
>
> Steven Sharpe - The Office Gallery
>
> d...@eastlink.ca
>
> --
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> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
> the directions.



-- 
Life is too short to put up with bad bokeh.

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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Jack Davis]

I've never even been mildly interested
in my family tree. "Yawn"

J

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 26, 2015, at 7:39 AM, knarf  wrote:
> 
> While I find that subject to be mildly interesting, it's really of no 
> consequence to me who our common ancestor is. It seems very important to you. 
> Would you mind telling us why?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> frank
> 
>> On November 26, 2015 10:28:06 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>> Identifying a common ancestor.
>> 
>> Alan C
>> 
>> -Original Message- 
>> From: knarf
>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 3:15 PM
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>> 
>> The key to what?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> frank
>> 
>>> On November 26, 2015 7:58:51 AM EST, Alan C  wrote:
>>> Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of Rooibos tea
>>> instead.
>>> 
>>> It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos & Humans
>>> share
>>> about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between human population
>>> groups
>>> too but there is an incredible web of interbreeding & migration still
>>> to be
>>> unravelled. Those who think the Neanderthals became extinct have it
>> all
>>> 
>>> wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!
>>> 
>>> Alan C
>>> 
>>> -Original Message- 
>>> From: Bob W-PDML
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 2:19 PM
>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>> 
>>> That won't do my gout any good.
>>> 
>>> B
>>> 
 On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:
 
 Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.
 
 Alan C
 
 
 -Original Message- From: Bob W
 Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
 To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
 Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor
 
 I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this
>>> because
 I'm curious to see where it's going.
 
 Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos.
>>> Since
 common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are
>>> equally
 closely related to both.
 
 Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of
>> the
>>> 
 Third
 Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great
>>> apes,
 and
 talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old
>>> book now
 so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is
>>> still
 an
 excellent read.
 
 The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps
>>> does
 not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
 discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on
>> the
>>> 
 latest
 paper someone announces another candidate.
 
 I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The
>>> One.
 There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
 happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils
>> are
>>> 
 found
 of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other
>>> candidates,
 but
 we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of
>>> creature it
 was.
 
 The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
 Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories
>>> that
 somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would
>>> be
 unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines
>>> for
 about
 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I
 wouldn't
 even hazard a guess.
 
 Can I have my surprise now?
 
 B
 
 
> -Original Message-
> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
> 
> Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be
>>> surprised
> what
> you find.
> 
> Alan C
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: knarf
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
> 
> I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I
>>> suppose it
> would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific
 feeling.
> My opinion really doesn't mean much.
> 
> Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter
>>> of
> opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is
>>> not an
> area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> frank
> 
> On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C 
>>> wrote:
>> You're right. 

Re: So how did I do THIS? Every JPEG looks like different processing...

[Steve Sharpe]

On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 19:39:49 -0600, Darren Addy wrote:
> Well I have assumed my RAW files were OK, but I haven't checked yet.
> Now I'm wondering. Will have to check when I get home later this
> weekend. I have no explanation for how a RAW file would show
> processing like that. I thought a RAW file was a RAW file.

Same here. I hope my camera isn't buggered up. 
---

Steven Sharpe - The Office Gallery

d...@eastlink.ca

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Re: dos Pesos - one for Frank one for Paul Sorenson

[ann sanfedele]

We were there off season... both times so the cabin wasn't open - but at 
least in 1992 you could go in and view the interior which
has been restored . This is, though, the actual cabin and location where 
he wrote about Sam McGee and dangerous Dan.


Glad you enjoy the view

ann

On 11/26/2015 12:56 PM, Paul wrote:
I could happily spend time just relaxing on that front porch...thanks 
for posting it.


-p

On 11/26/2015 12:39 AM, ann sanfedele wrote:

Two from1992  LX &  Kodachrome

Frank -
here is a friend I made along the Haines Highway in the Yukon
https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-GcTkPBJ/A 



Paul -
The Robert Service cabin in Dawson..
https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-f6MxHC5/A 



Now I'm sorry  I didn't work it more ...

ann








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to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and follow 
the directions.

Re: So how did I do THIS? Every JPEG looks like different processing...

[Steve Sharpe]

The same thing happened to me this past summer with my K-3, and I shoot 
exclusively RAW, no JPEGs. But every image was coming out in all these 
otherworldly colours...which Aperture automatically fixed so I didn't 
pay much attention. Then I made some astrophotos and noticed that the 
sky was pink in one exposure, magenta in the next...etc. etc. To get it 
back to reality and I had to reset the camera to the factory defaults 
and then reprogramme it to my preferences.


On Thu, 26 Nov 2015 14:49:53 +1100, Rob Studdert wrote:
> I got caught mid event by the "Cross-Processing" demon too using my
> K3, had me baffled, must have bumped the buttons. I didn't have time
> to screw about so I reverted to single body shooting and it was a long
> event, I must have changed lenses 100 times :(
> 
> On 25 November 2015 at 06:03, John  wrote:
>> Ok, so SWAG - it's bracketing white balance.
>> 
>> On 11/23/2015 2:26 PM, Darren Addy wrote:
>>> 
>>> Well, here is a screenshot of a section of the JPEGs that will give you an
>>> idea:
>>> 
>>> http://www.antiqueauto.org/assets/randomPost.png
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 12:12 PM, John  wrote:
 
 On 11/22/2015 1:13 PM, Darren Addy wrote:
> 
> 
> Yesterday I enjoyed a little photo safari and then, hearing that a
> group of Whooping Cranes did not take off as expected on Saturday I
> raced down to Thayer County to try to get to see them before sundown.
> 
> Somewhere along the line I accidentally changed some setting (not
> through the menus) and after that point each JPEG produced looked
> different than the one before, but each was some sort of extreme
> in-camera post-processing. I could almost understand it they were all
> ONE sort of post-processing (like cross-processing) but they were each
> different.
> 
> I was shooting in RAW+ so the JPEGs are pretty irrelevant (didn't LOSE
> anything because of the error, but still annoying).
> 
> What in the heck did I do so I can avoid doing it again? Any ideas?
> 
 
 Without seeing examples I'd be at a loss to even take a SWAG.

---

Steven Sharpe - The Office Gallery

d...@eastlink.ca

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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Alan C]

There was recently a local documentary on the subject. The similarities to & 
differences from chimpanzees was mentioned. Some locals then took the 
viewpoint that it was racist, implying that they were descended from 
monkeys. Talk about a persecution complex. The way the world is going, 
perhaps we're all monkeys.


Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: Bob W-PDML

Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 1:29 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I've seen a number of articles and possibly a documentary about the cave, 
but I'll have a look at that one.


B


On 26 Nov 2015, at 17:50, Paul  wrote:

Here's the most (or one of the most) recent discoveries of another branch 
or our human family tree.  Named homo naledi, the fossils were discovered 
in 2013 some 100 feet underground in a chamber with very difficult access. 
Among the interesting elements, besides the location, are the existence of 
complete skeletons and that they appear to have been placed there as part 
of a death ritual, suggesting the development of a culture.


http://onwisconsin.uwalumni.com/features/chamberof-discovery/

Nova, broadcast on PBS here in the US, has a documentary on the discovery 
and retrieving a small portion of the thousands of bones. It's a couple 
hours long, but an interesting watch...


http://video.pbs.org/video/2365559270/

-p


On 11/26/2015 4:43 AM, Bob W wrote:
I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this because
I'm curious to see where it's going.

Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos. Since
common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are equally
closely related to both.

Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the 
Third
Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great apes, 
and
talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old book 
now
so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is still 
an

excellent read.

The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps does
not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on the 
latest

paper someone announces another candidate.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The One.
There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are 
found
of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other candidates, 
but

we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of creature it
was.

The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories that
somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would be
unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines for 
about
40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I 
wouldn't

even hazard a guess.

Can I have my surprise now?

B



-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised 
what

you find.

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: knarf
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I suppose 
it

would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific

feeling.

My opinion really doesn't mean much.

Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter of
opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is not 
an

area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.

Cheers,

frank


On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C  wrote:
You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
"Genetically
we're close to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans" - which, in
your opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion as to who the
common ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm
being cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a conclusion, or
tying to trap me in some way" - not really, I'm trying to establish a
common base so we can further our discourse.

Alan C

-Original Message-
From: knarf
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:10 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I don't understand your question. We don't have any "living ancestors"
in
evolutionary terms.

As I said earlier, we're great apes, so genetically we're close to
chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. But they aren't ancestors or
somehow "below" us. We share a common ancestor and each species has
evolved differently to 

PESO - Still Legal

[frank theriault]

Third in this very popular series:

http://knarfinthecity.blogspot.ca/2015/11/still-legal.html

;-)

Hope you enjoy. Comments welcome.

cheers,

frank

-- 
"Sharpness is a bourgeois concept."  -Henri Cartier-Bresson

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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[frank theriault]

Caffeine free?

What's the point then? It's like alcohol free beer...

LOL

cheers,

frank

On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 11:48 AM, Alan C  wrote:
> It's very refreshing, caffeine free & full of antioxidants. I must say it is
> an acquired taste, especially if you're accustomed to Ceylon. Blends with
> other herbs are available too. I drink a Rooibos/Buchu blend. Some people
> like it iced.
>
> Alan C
>
> -Original Message- From: Bob W
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:31 PM
>
> To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
> Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor
>
> Not too keen on rooibos tea, but in the interests of cultural harmony I'll
> take a sip.
>
> That 70% figure is not the figure that orthodox science quotes:
> <
> http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/permanent-exhibitions/human-origins-and-cult
> ural-halls/Anne-and-Bernard-Spitzer-Hall-of-Human-Origins/understanding-our-
> past/dna-comparing-humans-and-chimps>
>
> 70% seems to be a number that some people have latched onto to try and show
> that there hasn't been enough time for evolution to do its dirty work. It's
> rather a bizarre thing to do because they seem to be trying to have their
> cake and eat it. In order to make the argument they have to accept that
> evolution works in a certain way and then show that some relatively
> unimportant facts (70% versus 98.whatever %) mean the whole theory is wrong.
>
> B
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
>> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 12:59 PM
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>
>> Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of Rooibos tea
>
> instead.
>>
>>
>> It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos & Humans share
>> about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between human population
>> groups too but there is an incredible web of interbreeding & migration
>
> still to
>>
>> be unravelled. Those who think the Neanderthals became extinct have it all
>> wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!
>>
>> Alan C
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Bob W-PDML
>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 2:19 PM
>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>
>> That won't do my gout any good.
>>
>> B
>>
>> > On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:
>> >
>> > Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in lard.
>> >
>> > Alan C
>> >
>> >
>> > -Original Message- From: Bob W
>> > Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 12:43 PM
>> > To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List'
>> > Subject: RE: PESO - The Protestor
>> >
>> > I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this
>> > because I'm curious to see where it's going.
>> >
>> > Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos. Since
>> > common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are
>> > equally closely related to both.
>> >
>> > Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the
>> > Third Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other)
>> > great apes, and talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's
>> > quite an old book now so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably
>> > outdated, but it is still an excellent read.
>> >
>> > The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps
>> > does not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates,
>> > but discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on
>> > the latest paper someone announces another candidate.
>> >
>> > I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The One.
>> > There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
>> > happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are
>> > found of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other
>> > candidates, but we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the
>> > type of creature it was.
>> >
>> > The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
>> > Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories
>> > that somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance
>> > would be unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the
>> > sidelines for about
>> > 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I
>> > wouldn't even hazard a guess.
>> >
>> > Can I have my surprise now?
>> >
>> > B
>> >
>> >
>> >> -Original Message-
>> >> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
>> >> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
>> >> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>> >> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>> >>
>> >> Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised
>> >> what you find.
>> >>
>> >> Alan C
>> >>
>> >> -Original Message-
>> >> From: knarf
>> >> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
>> >> To: Pentax-Discuss 

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Bob W-PDML]

I've seen a number of articles and possibly a documentary about the cave, but 
I'll have a look at that one.

B

> On 26 Nov 2015, at 17:50, Paul  wrote:
> 
> Here's the most (or one of the most) recent discoveries of another branch or 
> our human family tree.  Named homo naledi, the fossils were discovered in 
> 2013 some 100 feet underground in a chamber with very difficult access.  
> Among the interesting elements, besides the location, are the existence of 
> complete skeletons and that they appear to have been placed there as part of 
> a death ritual, suggesting the development of a culture.
> 
> http://onwisconsin.uwalumni.com/features/chamberof-discovery/
> 
> Nova, broadcast on PBS here in the US, has a documentary on the discovery and 
> retrieving a small portion of the thousands of bones. It's a couple hours 
> long, but an interesting watch...
> 
> http://video.pbs.org/video/2365559270/
> 
> -p
> 
>> On 11/26/2015 4:43 AM, Bob W wrote:
>> I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering this because
>> I'm curious to see where it's going.
>> 
>> Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to bonobos. Since
>> common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we are equally
>> closely related to both.
>> 
>> Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall of the Third
>> Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the (other) great apes, and
>> talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite an old book now
>> so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but it is still an
>> excellent read.
>> 
>> The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and chimps does
>> not seem to have been settled yet. There are several candidates, but
>> discoveries seem to happen so often that before the ink is dry on the latest
>> paper someone announces another candidate.
>> 
>> I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify The One.
>> There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of speciations
>> happening around the estimated time of the split. Even if fossils are found
>> of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the other candidates, but
>> we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type of creature it
>> was.
>> 
>> The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya, and
>> Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different theories that
>> somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance would be
>> unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the sidelines for about
>> 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates sidelined I wouldn't
>> even hazard a guess.
>> 
>> Can I have my surprise now?
>> 
>> B
>> 
>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C
>>> Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM
>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
>>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>> 
>>> Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be surprised what
>>> you find.
>>> 
>>> Alan C
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: knarf
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 6:52 AM
>>> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
>>> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
>>> 
>>> I have no idea which other great ape is "closest" to humans. I suppose it
>>> would be either chimps or bonobos but that's just a non-scientific
>> feeling.
>>> My opinion really doesn't mean much.
>>> 
>>> Whoever the common ancestor of the great apes was, is not a matter of
>>> opinion. However I have no idea who that might be. Paleontology is not an
>>> area that I have much expertise, or for that matter, interest in.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> frank
>>> 
 On November 25, 2015 10:40:52 PM EST, Alan C  wrote:
 You're right. Perhaps "living cousins" would have been better.
 "Genetically
 we're close to chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans" - which, in
 your opinion is closest to humans? Do you have an opinion as to who the
 common ancestor may have been. "I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm
 being cross-examined here, as if you're moving toward a conclusion, or
 tying to trap me in some way" - not really, I'm trying to establish a
 common base so we can further our discourse.
 
 Alan C
 
 -Original Message-
 From: knarf
 Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2015 10:10 PM
 To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
 Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
 
 I don't understand your question. We don't have any "living ancestors"
 in
 evolutionary terms.
 
 As I said earlier, we're great apes, so genetically we're close to
 chimps, bonobos, gorillas and orangutans. But they aren't ancestors or
 somehow "below" us. We share a common ancestor and each species has
 evolved differently to where we are today.
 
 I have to say, I rather feel as if I'm being cross-examined here, as if

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Bob W-PDML]

I will.

> On 26 Nov 2015, at 17:53, Alan C  wrote:
> 
> If you ever get a chance to watch the movie "The God's must be Crazy" you 
> will see that it was actually a Coke bottle which caused a San family feud.
> 
> From Wikipedia: "Xi and his San tribe are "living well off the land" in the 
> Kalahari Desert. They are happy because of their belief that the gods have 
> provided plenty of everything, and no one among them has any wants. One day, 
> a Coca-Cola bottle is thrown out of an aeroplane and falls to Earth unbroken. 
> Initially, Xi's people suppose this strange artefact is a present from the 
> gods and find many uses for it. They employ it as a craft tool, rolling pin, 
> pestle, blow the top to make music, etc. But unlike anything that they have 
> had before, there is only one glass bottle to go around. With everyone 
> wanting it at once, they soon find themselves experiencing envy, anger, and 
> even violence."
> 
> Alan C
> 
> -Original Message- From: Bob W-PDML
> Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 7:34 PM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
> 
> A large stone and a termite stick, and even that caused a family feud
> 
> B
> 
>> On 26 Nov 2015, at 17:11, John  wrote:
>> 
>> Don't you want to know if he left us anything in his will?
>> 
>>> On 11/26/2015 10:39 AM, knarf wrote:
>>> While I find that subject to be mildly interesting, it's really of no
>>> consequence to me who our common ancestor is. It seems very important
>>> to you. Would you mind telling us why?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> frank
>>> 
>>> On November 26, 2015 10:28:06 AM EST, Alan C 
>>> wrote:
 Identifying a common ancestor.
 
 Alan C
 
 -Original Message- From: knarf Sent: Thursday, November 26,
 2015 3:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: PESO - The
 Protestor
 
 The key to what?
 
 Cheers,
 
 frank
 
 On November 26, 2015 7:58:51 AM EST, Alan C 
 wrote:
> Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of
> Rooibos tea instead.
> 
> It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos &
> Humans share about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between
> human population groups too but there is an incredible web of
> interbreeding & migration still to be unravelled. Those who think
> the Neanderthals became extinct have it
 all
> 
> wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!
> 
> Alan C
> 
> -Original Message- From: Bob W-PDML Sent: Thursday,
> November 26, 2015 2:19 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject:
> Re: PESO - The Protestor
> 
> That won't do my gout any good.
> 
> B
> 
>> On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:
>> 
>> Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in
>> lard.
>> 
>> Alan C
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message- From: Bob W Sent: Thursday, November
>> 26, 2015 12:43 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE:
>> PESO - The Protestor
>> 
>> I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering
>> this
> because
>> I'm curious to see where it's going.
>> 
>> Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to
>> bonobos.
> Since
>> common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we
>> are
> equally
>> closely related to both.
>> 
>> Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall
>> of
 the
> 
>> Third Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the
>> (other) great
> apes,
>> and talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite
>> an old
> book now
>> so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but
>> it is
> still
>> an excellent read.
>> 
>> The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and
>> chimps
> does
>> not seem to have been settled yet. There are several
>> candidates, but discoveries seem to happen so often that before
>> the ink is dry on
 the
> 
>> latest paper someone announces another candidate.
>> 
>> I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify
>> The
> One.
>> There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of
>> speciations happening around the estimated time of the split.
>> Even if fossils
 are
> 
>> found of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the
>> other
> candidates,
>> but we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type
>> of
> creature it
>> was.
>> 
>> The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya,
>> and Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different
>> theories
> that
>> somebody like me who just follows 

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[ann sanfedele]

Terrifc film ..
and I"d say so even if I wasn't ann -san-
:-)

a

On 11/26/2015 6:27 PM, Bob W-PDML wrote:

I will.


On 26 Nov 2015, at 17:53, Alan C  wrote:

If you ever get a chance to watch the movie "The God's must be Crazy" you will 
see that it was actually a Coke bottle which caused a San family feud.

 From Wikipedia: "Xi and his San tribe are "living well off the land" in the 
Kalahari Desert. They are happy because of their belief that the gods have provided plenty of 
everything, and no one among them has any wants. One day, a Coca-Cola bottle is thrown out of an 
aeroplane and falls to Earth unbroken. Initially, Xi's people suppose this strange artefact is a 
present from the gods and find many uses for it. They employ it as a craft tool, rolling pin, 
pestle, blow the top to make music, etc. But unlike anything that they have had before, there is 
only one glass bottle to go around. With everyone wanting it at once, they soon find themselves 
experiencing envy, anger, and even violence."

Alan C

-Original Message- From: Bob W-PDML
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 7:34 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

A large stone and a termite stick, and even that caused a family feud

B


On 26 Nov 2015, at 17:11, John  wrote:

Don't you want to know if he left us anything in his will?


On 11/26/2015 10:39 AM, knarf wrote:
While I find that subject to be mildly interesting, it's really of no
consequence to me who our common ancestor is. It seems very important
to you. Would you mind telling us why?

Thanks,

frank

On November 26, 2015 10:28:06 AM EST, Alan C 
wrote:

Identifying a common ancestor.

Alan C

-Original Message- From: knarf Sent: Thursday, November 26,
2015 3:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: PESO - The
Protestor

The key to what?

Cheers,

frank

On November 26, 2015 7:58:51 AM EST, Alan C 
wrote:

Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of
Rooibos tea instead.

It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos &
Humans share about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between
human population groups too but there is an incredible web of
interbreeding & migration still to be unravelled. Those who think
the Neanderthals became extinct have it

all

wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!

Alan C

-Original Message- From: Bob W-PDML Sent: Thursday,
November 26, 2015 2:19 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject:
Re: PESO - The Protestor

That won't do my gout any good.

B


On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:

Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in
lard.

Alan C


-Original Message- From: Bob W Sent: Thursday, November
26, 2015 12:43 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE:
PESO - The Protestor

I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering
this

because

I'm curious to see where it's going.

Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to
bonobos.

Since

common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we
are

equally

closely related to both.

Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall
of

the

Third Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the
(other) great

apes,

and talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite
an old

book now

so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but
it is

still

an excellent read.

The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and
chimps

does

not seem to have been settled yet. There are several
candidates, but discoveries seem to happen so often that before
the ink is dry on

the

latest paper someone announces another candidate.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify
The

One.

There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of
speciations happening around the estimated time of the split.
Even if fossils

are

found of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the
other

candidates,

but we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type
of

creature it

was.

The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya,
and Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different
theories

that

somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance
would

be

unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the
sidelines

for

about 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates
sidelined I wouldn't even hazard a guess.

Can I have my surprise now?

B



-Original Message- From: PDML
[mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C Sent:
Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail
List  Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be

surprised

what you find.

Alan C

-Original Message- From: knarf Sent: Thursday,
November 26, 2015 6:52 AM To: Pentax-Discuss 

Re: Thanksgiving

[Jack Davis]

We did and we'll sleep well tonight!

J

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 26, 2015, at 8:27 AM, John  wrote:
> 
> I wish you all a happy Thanksgiving whether you celebrate the American
> holiday or not. I hope you will all have a good day with someone you love
> and with someone who loves you.
> 
> -- 
> Science - Questions we may never find answers for.
> Religion - Answers we must never question.
> 
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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Bill]

On 11/26/2015 10:48 AM, Alan C wrote:

It's very refreshing, caffeine free & full of antioxidants. I must say
it is an acquired taste, especially if you're accustomed to Ceylon.
Blends with other herbs are available too. I drink a Rooibos/Buchu
blend. Some people like it iced.


It has the advantage of not being made from worms.



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Re: dos Pesos - one for Frank one for Paul Sorenson

[frank theriault]

Lovely canine!

Love the cabin, too. Bet that's draughty in a -50C blizzard!

cheers,

frank


On Thu, Nov 26, 2015 at 1:39 AM, ann sanfedele  wrote:
> Two from1992  LX &  Kodachrome
>
> Frank -
> here is a friend I made along the Haines Highway in the Yukon
> https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-GcTkPBJ/A
>
> Paul -
> The Robert Service cabin in Dawson..
> https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-f6MxHC5/A
>
> Now I'm sorry  I didn't work it more ...
>
> ann
>
>
>
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> http://pdml.net/mailman/listinfo/pdml_pdml.net
> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the PDML, please visit the link directly above and
> follow the directions.



-- 
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PESO - The Protestor

[Alan C]

https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/beverage/health-benefits-of-red-rooibos-tea.html

BTW, beer is very nutitional, even the alcohol free offerings. Presumably
you prefer the real thing?

Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: frank theriault

Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 5:42 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Caffeine free?

What's the point then? It's like alcohol free beer...

LOL

cheers,

frank


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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Alan C]

Hopefully Frank will answer that.

Alan C

-Original Message- 
From: Paul Stenquist

Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 6:17 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Go Bears! Uh, sorry is that off topic?

Paul via phone


On Nov 26, 2015, at 11:04 PM, Alan C  wrote:

https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/beverage/health-benefits-of-red-rooibos-tea.html

BTW, beer is very nutitional, even the alcohol free offerings. Presumably
you prefer the real thing?

Alan C

-Original Message- From: frank theriault
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 5:42 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Caffeine free?

What's the point then? It's like alcohol free beer...

LOL

cheers,

frank


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Re: Peso - more from Alaska and the Yukon ok 3 Pesos :-)

[knarf]

Beautiful photos of what looks like very challenging country.

The red truck and gas pump stands out. Great stuff!

Cheers,

frank 

On November 26, 2015 11:29:04 PM EST, ann sanfedele  wrote:
>All from Spring, 1992  Pentax LX, Kodachrome
>On the Klondike loop road
>https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-5dpjbnH/A
>
>Both in Boundary Alaska - just west of the border with Canada...
>
>https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-fWVHFJf/A
>
>https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-4bNNBXs/A
>
>ann

-- 

"Sharpness is a bourgeois concept." -- Henri Cartier-Bresson

Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: Peso - more from Alaska and the Yukon ok 3 Pesos :-)

[ann sanfedele]

Thanks, Frank
Glad you like!
btw - Rooibos tea is delicious - and some of us can't have caffeine past 
a certain hour :-)



ann

On 11/26/2015 11:57 PM, knarf wrote:

Beautiful photos of what looks like very challenging country.

The red truck and gas pump stands out. Great stuff!

Cheers,

frank

On November 26, 2015 11:29:04 PM EST, ann sanfedele  wrote:

All from Spring, 1992  Pentax LX, Kodachrome
On the Klondike loop road
https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-5dpjbnH/A

Both in Boundary Alaska - just west of the border with Canada...

https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-fWVHFJf/A

https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-4bNNBXs/A

ann



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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Paul Stenquist]

Go Bears! Uh, sorry is that off topic?

Paul via phone

> On Nov 26, 2015, at 11:04 PM, Alan C  wrote:
> 
> https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/beverage/health-benefits-of-red-rooibos-tea.html
> 
> BTW, beer is very nutitional, even the alcohol free offerings. Presumably
> you prefer the real thing?
> 
> Alan C
> 
> -Original Message- From: frank theriault
> Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 5:42 AM
> To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
> Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor
> 
> Caffeine free?
> 
> What's the point then? It's like alcohol free beer...
> 
> LOL
> 
> cheers,
> 
> frank
> 
> 
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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[John]

I guess.

On 11/26/2015 12:02 PM, Bob W wrote:

So just like normal work then?


-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John

You didn't miss anything other than a lot of shouting, confused running

back

& forth and standing around for hours at a time waiting for someone to get
an idea.

On 11/25/2015 11:43 PM, knarf wrote:

No, I've never been in the military.

Cheers,

frank




--
Science - Questions we may never find answers for.
Religion - Answers we must never question.

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Re: OT: another "lost" photographer on exhibit...

[John]

Thanks.

On 11/26/2015 12:01 PM, Bob W wrote:

http://www.leemiller.co.uk/



-Original Message-
From: PDML [mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of John
Sent: Thursday, 26 November, 2015 4:56 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List 
Subject: Re: OT: another "lost" photographer on exhibit...

I wish they'd been able to show a little more of her work with the

article. It's

unlikely I'll get to see the exhibit, and unfortunately it's now the

season

when I won't be buying gifts for myself, so I won't have a chance to get

the

book.

Maybe later if I don't forget it, but most likely I will.

On 11/26/2015 9:41 AM, Stanley Halpin wrote:

Actually, this is a bit more ON topic than some of the recent
exchanges! (-;

So anyway, the NY Times today has an interesting article on Lee
Miller, a woman who started as a fashion model in  the 1920-30s, then
became a photographer. Wartime photographer from London.

Documented

D-Day, the concentration camps, and much in between. The article has a
reference to an on-going exhibit of her work at the Imperial War
Museum/London.


http://p.nytimes.com/email/re?location=InCMR7g4BCKC2wiZPkcVUsCgjL/O
B2O



q_id=58905b9799479c6b6bf7ec697774f125_type=eta_id=1
448

547689474409_id=0

Happy Thanksgiving all!

stan




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Peso - more from Alaska and the Yukon ok 3 Pesos :-)

[ann sanfedele]

All from Spring, 1992  Pentax LX, Kodachrome
On the Klondike loop road
https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-5dpjbnH/A

Both in Boundary Alaska - just west of the border with Canada...

https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-fWVHFJf/A

https://annsan.smugmug.com/WorksinProg/Unfinishedalcan/n-2bspQh/i-4bNNBXs/A

ann

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Re: PESO - The Protestor

[John]

Not only have I seen it, I've seen the sequel.

On 11/26/2015 12:52 PM, Alan C wrote:

If you ever get a chance to watch the movie "The God's must be Crazy"
you will see that it was actually a Coke bottle which caused a San
family feud.


From Wikipedia: "Xi and his San tribe are "living well off the land"
in the

Kalahari Desert. They are happy because of their belief that the gods
have provided plenty of everything, and no one among them has any wants.
One day, a Coca-Cola bottle is thrown out of an aeroplane and falls to
Earth unbroken. Initially, Xi's people suppose this strange artefact is
a present from the gods and find many uses for it. They employ it as a
craft tool, rolling pin, pestle, blow the top to make music, etc. But
unlike anything that they have had before, there is only one glass
bottle to go around. With everyone wanting it at once, they soon find
themselves experiencing envy, anger, and even violence."

Alan C

-Original Message- From: Bob W-PDML
Sent: Thursday, November 26, 2015 7:34 PM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

A large stone and a termite stick, and even that caused a family feud

B


On 26 Nov 2015, at 17:11, John  wrote:

Don't you want to know if he left us anything in his will?


On 11/26/2015 10:39 AM, knarf wrote:
While I find that subject to be mildly interesting, it's really of no
consequence to me who our common ancestor is. It seems very important
to you. Would you mind telling us why?

Thanks,

frank

On November 26, 2015 10:28:06 AM EST, Alan C 
wrote:

Identifying a common ancestor.

Alan C

-Original Message- From: knarf Sent: Thursday, November 26,
2015 3:15 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject: Re: PESO - The
Protestor

The key to what?

Cheers,

frank

On November 26, 2015 7:58:51 AM EST, Alan C 
wrote:

Sorry, I didn't realize. O.K. - you can have a nice cup of
Rooibos tea instead.

It look as if DNA studies will be the key. Chimps, Bonobos &
Humans share about 70% of their DNA. There are variations between
human population groups too but there is an incredible web of
interbreeding & migration still to be unravelled. Those who think
the Neanderthals became extinct have it

all


wrong - just look at the front rows of rugby scrums!

Alan C

-Original Message- From: Bob W-PDML Sent: Thursday,
November 26, 2015 2:19 PM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List Subject:
Re: PESO - The Protestor

That won't do my gout any good.

B


On 26 Nov 2015, at 12:02, Alan C  wrote:

Cheddarmelt steak, two eggs, mopane worms & chips fried in
lard.

Alan C


-Original Message- From: Bob W Sent: Thursday, November
26, 2015 12:43 PM To: 'Pentax-Discuss Mail List' Subject: RE:
PESO - The Protestor

I'm not as strong-willed as Frank, so I don't mind answering
this

because

I'm curious to see where it's going.

Humans are most closely related to common chimps and to
bonobos.

Since

common chimps and bonobos diverged after humans diverged we
are

equally

closely related to both.

Jared Diamond wrote an excellent book called The Rise and Fall
of

the



Third Chimpanzee in which he argues for the rights of the
(other) great

apes,

and talks about the closeness of humans and chimps. It's quite
an old

book now

so some of the human ancestry stuff is probably outdated, but
it is

still

an excellent read.

The question of the most recent common ancestor of humans and
chimps

does

not seem to have been settled yet. There are several
candidates, but discoveries seem to happen so often that before
the ink is dry on

the



latest paper someone announces another candidate.

I don't think there's any reason to suppose we'll ever identify
The

One.

There seems to have been a very complex and rapid set of
speciations happening around the estimated time of the split.
Even if fossils

are



found of The One it may be difficult to prove among all the
other

candidates,

but we'll probably have a reasonably accurate idea of the type
of

creature it

was.

The current candidates include Orrorin tugenensis from Kenya,
and Sahelanthropus tchadensis, but there are so many different
theories

that

somebody like me who just follows the subject from a distance
would

be

unwise to say 'this is the one'. Having watched from the
sidelines

for

about 40 years and seen so many apparently strong candidates
sidelined I wouldn't even hazard a guess.

Can I have my surprise now?

B



-Original Message- From: PDML
[mailto:pdml-boun...@pdml.net] On Behalf Of Alan C Sent:
Thursday, 26 November, 2015 5:06 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail
List  Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Go on, I dare you, be a devil. Do some research. You may be

surprised

what you find.

Alan C

-Original Message- From: knarf Sent: Thursday,
November 26, 2015 6:52 AM To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

I have no idea which other great ape is 

Re: PESO - The Protestor

[Ken Waller]

How about them Lions?

And thank you Bears for knocking off the Packers.

Kenneth Waller
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/kennethwaller

- Original Message - 
From: "Paul Stenquist" 

Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor



Go Bears! Uh, sorry is that off topic?

Paul via phone


On Nov 26, 2015, at 11:04 PM, Alan C  wrote:

https://www.organicfacts.net/health-benefits/beverage/health-benefits-of-red-rooibos-tea.html

BTW, beer is very nutitional, even the alcohol free offerings. Presumably
you prefer the real thing?

Alan C

-Original Message- From: frank theriault
Sent: Friday, November 27, 2015 5:42 AM
To: Pentax-Discuss Mail List
Subject: Re: PESO - The Protestor

Caffeine free?

What's the point then? It's like alcohol free beer...

LOL

cheers,

frank



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