Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[John]

I use Bridge instead of lightroom, but I have mine organized almost that
way. I let Bridge do the import & it automagically creates folders by
date and sorts the images into them. All I usually have to do is add a
descriptor to the folder name. "MMDD" becomes "MMDD-descriptor".

I don't have the "month" folders, because there have been times when I
didn't get to pick the camera up for a whole month and what use is there
having an empty "November" folder?

I have year folders and within that are dated folders annotated with a
job name or descriptor. I find that useful if I have more than one "job"
on a given day or when a "job" reoccurs over several days.

2015
- 20150101_New_Years_Day
- 20150102_Some_Job-Day1 (or location)
- 20150102_Some_Job-Day2
- 20150103-1_First_Job_of_the_Day
- 20150103-2_Second_Job_of_the_Day

...

Since I'm a Windoze user, the "MMDD-descriptor" format keeps the
folders in chronological order and I usually have a fairly good idea of
the time frame I would have taken certain photos and the descriptors
fill in the blanks. Fall Color isn't likely to be any earlier than
September, nor later than November in any given year.

And if they aren't where I think they should be, I could still do a
keyword search.


On 11/12/2015 7:26 PM, Stanley Halpin wrote:

For me, subject-based folder organization is a nuisance at best and a major 
pain at worst. I still have several handfuls of folders from my first Optio, 
with names like Fall Colors or Ste Marteen. Which would be fine if that fall of 
2003 was the only time I ever shot fall colors, or if the spring of 2004 was to 
be my only visit ever to Ste Marteen. But when I revisit those subjects, do I 
throw those new images in the folders with the old? To me that doesn’t feel 
right.

Since those very early days as I became overwhelmed with the proliferation of 
folders and sub folders, I have switched to a calendar based system. Every year has 
a folder with twelve subfolders. Period.  If all else fails, I can look at the 
September & October subfolder if I want to find color. The images themselves 
are named with a date prefix in a format that is compatible with my computer’s way 
of thinking about dates. So if I ever for some reason needed to look at my images 
when not in LR,I can just sort my image files by Date and they will be in 
chronological order.

When I import to LR, I always not sometimes not occasionally but always apply 
broad keywords to the entire set I am importing. Always including the general 
area/region and often the town name.Time permitting after importing, and it 
usually does, I will go back through and key word subgroups of images with a 
bit more precision. I.e., not just Venice, but also Duosodoro.

As I work on a set of images, from a trip or a time frame, I create a 
Collection or two to hold subsets of the images. Sometimes Smart Collections 
(e.g., all images shot between 9-18-2015 and 10-05-2015 with a rating of 2 
Stars or higher), sometimes subject based collections which I load by 
dragging-dropping selected images.

All of this isn’t that much work, even for legacy images freshly imported. With 
scanned images, I name them according to the date they were taken. Or my best 
guess to that date.

So I have LR in front of me. If I want fall colors, I look at my set of 
Collections. Nope, haven’t done that one yet. OK, I’ll do a keyword search. 
Maybe narrow it down by looking for fall colors shots near home and those in 
Michigan’s U.P. I see I am getting mostly October shots; I’ll check September 
and November for a few years, just do a quick scroll through to see if there 
are some groupings of fall colors I didn’t properly keyword because I was 
paying more attention to some detail rather  than to the overall context. If I 
see some, I quickly keyword them, redo the search. All of this is very quick 
and easy and requires only a) a general sense of what events occurred when on 
the calendar, and b) a good but not necessarily compulsive keywording process.

stan


On Nov 12, 2015, at 10:07 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:



On Nov 11, 2015, at 2:57 PM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:

On 11 Nov 2015, at 12:50, Malcolm Smith  wrote:


Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:


Sorry if this doesn't answer your questions directly. Unraveling a
slightly mucked up Lightroom catalog database takes time and
persistence. You need to look at a lot of things, one at a time, to
determine what the state of a particular catalog is and what files it
is looking at. Always look from catalog to file system, and then the
other way, to determine issues that need to be fixed.


It's so important to get Lightroom to set the catalogue database right from the 
start. I thought I understood that, and I also thought that at least the images 
I had from DSLRs were in a logical order.

[...]

For someone organised, starting with Lightroom should be a big help, but if you 
don't know what it is 

Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Eric Weir]

> On Nov 11, 2015, at 2:57 PM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
> 
> On 11 Nov 2015, at 12:50, Malcolm Smith  wrote:
>> 
>> Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
>> 
>>> Sorry if this doesn't answer your questions directly. Unraveling a
>>> slightly mucked up Lightroom catalog database takes time and
>>> persistence. You need to look at a lot of things, one at a time, to
>>> determine what the state of a particular catalog is and what files it
>>> is looking at. Always look from catalog to file system, and then the
>>> other way, to determine issues that need to be fixed.
>> 
>> It's so important to get Lightroom to set the catalogue database right from 
>> the start. I thought I understood that, and I also thought that at least the 
>> images I had from DSLRs were in a logical order. 
>> 
>> [...]
>> 
>> For someone organised, starting with Lightroom should be a big help, but if 
>> you don't know what it is you want until you start, you have to live with 
>> and correct the errors that you make!
> 
> My view, which I implemented from v0.n beta of LR because it is a sound 
> general principle, is that you should not confuse the physical organisation 
> (i.e. on the disk) and the logical organisation, in the catalogue. Therefore 
> I have a completely flat unstructured set of photographs on disk, in one 
> folder (but see below), and I use LR to catalogue it. That's the point of a 
> catalogue - to make multiple independent groups independently of the physical 
> organisation, so that they are easy to find and to view in different ways. 
> Folder structures on disk are a 2nd-rate attempt to do something similar - 
> you don't really need two ways to do it. Occam's law applies.
> 
> However, my installation of LR itself does create subfolders on the disk 
> whose name is based on the file date, but I suspect I set it up this way 
> while I was drunk, or perhaps it was the default setting, when I first got 
> LR. It's unnecessary, but quieta non movere trumps Occam.

Listening to Malcolm and Bob, I realized that in fact I do have an organized 
catalog, which I arrived at with the help of folks here, after I’d acquired 
Lightroom but before I started using. It is exactly what Bob described. 
Lightroom assigns images to date-based folders when they are imported. I always 
add a short descriptive phrase after the date so that later I have a rough 
sense of what’s in each folder just by looking at the name. As Bob points out 
this results in an identical structuring of image files in the file system 
outside Lightroom. 

I was intrigued by Bob’s comment that the point of the catalogue is "to make 
multiple independent groups independently of the physical organisation, so that 
they are easy to find and to view in different ways.” My first reaction was to 
wonder what else he was talking about. Then it occurred to me that there are a 
couple other things I do that might qualify: I make q quick pass through the 
folder, flagging images not worth saving. Then I make a more careful pass, 
assigning a one-star rating to images I want to work with and use that to 
create a collection of those images. I then do my editing from within the 
collection. In the process anywhere from a few to several images get deleted 
from the collection. 

I have yet to find tagging helpful. At some point I may do so. If I do, I feel 
certain the tagging system will evolve organically, over time, in the process 
of tagging. I can’t imagine developing one in the abstract, in advance of using 
it.

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"Our world is a human world." 

- Hilary Putnam






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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Stanley Halpin]

For me, subject-based folder organization is a nuisance at best and a major 
pain at worst. I still have several handfuls of folders from my first Optio, 
with names like Fall Colors or Ste Marteen. Which would be fine if that fall of 
2003 was the only time I ever shot fall colors, or if the spring of 2004 was to 
be my only visit ever to Ste Marteen. But when I revisit those subjects, do I 
throw those new images in the folders with the old? To me that doesn’t feel 
right.

Since those very early days as I became overwhelmed with the proliferation of 
folders and sub folders, I have switched to a calendar based system. Every year 
has a folder with twelve subfolders. Period.  If all else fails, I can look at 
the September & October subfolder if I want to find color. The images 
themselves are named with a date prefix in a format that is compatible with my 
computer’s way of thinking about dates. So if I ever for some reason needed to 
look at my images when not in LR,I can just sort my image files by Date and 
they will be in chronological order.

When I import to LR, I always not sometimes not occasionally but always apply 
broad keywords to the entire set I am importing. Always including the general 
area/region and often the town name.Time permitting after importing, and it 
usually does, I will go back through and key word subgroups of images with a 
bit more precision. I.e., not just Venice, but also Duosodoro. 

As I work on a set of images, from a trip or a time frame, I create a 
Collection or two to hold subsets of the images. Sometimes Smart Collections 
(e.g., all images shot between 9-18-2015 and 10-05-2015 with a rating of 2 
Stars or higher), sometimes subject based collections which I load by 
dragging-dropping selected images. 

All of this isn’t that much work, even for legacy images freshly imported. With 
scanned images, I name them according to the date they were taken. Or my best 
guess to that date.

So I have LR in front of me. If I want fall colors, I look at my set of 
Collections. Nope, haven’t done that one yet. OK, I’ll do a keyword search. 
Maybe narrow it down by looking for fall colors shots near home and those in 
Michigan’s U.P. I see I am getting mostly October shots; I’ll check September 
and November for a few years, just do a quick scroll through to see if there 
are some groupings of fall colors I didn’t properly keyword because I was 
paying more attention to some detail rather  than to the overall context. If I 
see some, I quickly keyword them, redo the search. All of this is very quick 
and easy and requires only a) a general sense of what events occurred when on 
the calendar, and b) a good but not necessarily compulsive keywording process.

stan

> On Nov 12, 2015, at 10:07 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Nov 11, 2015, at 2:57 PM, Bob W-PDML  wrote:
>> 
>> On 11 Nov 2015, at 12:50, Malcolm Smith  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
>>> 
 Sorry if this doesn't answer your questions directly. Unraveling a
 slightly mucked up Lightroom catalog database takes time and
 persistence. You need to look at a lot of things, one at a time, to
 determine what the state of a particular catalog is and what files it
 is looking at. Always look from catalog to file system, and then the
 other way, to determine issues that need to be fixed.
>>> 
>>> It's so important to get Lightroom to set the catalogue database right from 
>>> the start. I thought I understood that, and I also thought that at least 
>>> the images I had from DSLRs were in a logical order. 
>>> 
>>> [...]
>>> 
>>> For someone organised, starting with Lightroom should be a big help, but if 
>>> you don't know what it is you want until you start, you have to live with 
>>> and correct the errors that you make!
>> 
>> My view, which I implemented from v0.n beta of LR because it is a sound 
>> general principle, is that you should not confuse the physical organisation 
>> (i.e. on the disk) and the logical organisation, in the catalogue. Therefore 
>> I have a completely flat unstructured set of photographs on disk, in one 
>> folder (but see below), and I use LR to catalogue it. That's the point of a 
>> catalogue - to make multiple independent groups independently of the 
>> physical organisation, so that they are easy to find and to view in 
>> different ways. Folder structures on disk are a 2nd-rate attempt to do 
>> something similar - you don't really need two ways to do it. Occam's law 
>> applies.
>> 
>> However, my installation of LR itself does create subfolders on the disk 
>> whose name is based on the file date, but I suspect I set it up this way 
>> while I was drunk, or perhaps it was the default setting, when I first got 
>> LR. It's unnecessary, but quieta non movere trumps Occam.
> 
> Listening to Malcolm and Bob, I realized that in fact I do have an organized 
> catalog, which I arrived at with 

RE: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Malcolm Smith]

Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:

> Sorry if this doesn't answer your questions directly. Unraveling a
> slightly mucked up Lightroom catalog database takes time and
> persistence. You need to look at a lot of things, one at a time, to
> determine what the state of a particular catalog is and what files it
> is looking at. Always look from catalog to file system, and then the
> other way, to determine issues that need to be fixed.

It's so important to get Lightroom to set the catalogue database right from the 
start. I thought I understood that, and I also thought that at least the images 
I had from DSLRs were in a logical order. 

Well, it turns out that knowing where to find the images on the hard disc (or 
spare drive) to view is one thing, but having a logical catalogue which makes 
sense as you add to it, work on them - and make them available for web or 
printing is something quite different. Only after I got a sizeable amount of 
the catalogue sorted did I realise that not all the images were present, but 
the whole way I stored them on the computer no longer made sense.

This became a circular problem, as I would have liked to have worked these 
issues out before making a Lightroom catalogue, yet until I was well into 
making it, I would not have known the issues!

It's taken me a while to enable Lightroom to find where the 'missing' folders 
or files went, but I have learnt a lot about the software in the process, and I 
now have the files laid out in a manner which makes sense to me and can grow 
with as I add scans of slides and negatives, as well as my latest digital 
pictures.

For someone organised, starting with Lightroom should be a big help, but if you 
don't know what it is you want until you start, you have to live with and 
correct the errors that you make!

Malcolm




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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Eric Weir]

> On Nov 11, 2015, at 7:48 AM, Malcolm Smith  wrote:
> 
> It's so important to get Lightroom to set the catalogue database right from 
> the start. I thought I understood that, and I also thought that at least the 
> images I had from DSLRs were in a logical order. 
> 
> Well, it turns out that knowing where to find the images on the hard disc (or 
> spare drive) to view is one thing, but having a logical catalogue which makes 
> sense as you add to it, work on them - and make them available for web or 
> printing is something quite different. Only after I got a sizeable amount of 
> the catalogue sorted did I realise that not all the images were present, but 
> the whole way I stored them on the computer no longer made sense.
> 
> This became a circular problem, as I would have liked to have worked these 
> issues out before making a Lightroom catalogue, yet until I was well into 
> making it, I would not have known the issues!
> 
> It's taken me a while to enable Lightroom to find where the 'missing' folders 
> or files went, but I have learnt a lot about the software in the process, and 
> I now have the files laid out in a manner which makes sense to me and can 
> grow with as I add scans of slides and negatives, as well as my latest 
> digital pictures.
> 
> For someone organised, starting with Lightroom should be a big help, but if 
> you don't know what it is you want until you start, you have to live with and 
> correct the errors that you make!

Thanks, Malcolm. As I said in my previous post, I’ve never done anything with 
my catalog. The notion of an “organized” catalog intrigues me. Again, I have 
only one. Every image I’ve ever taken has been just dumped into it. There’s no 
structure whatsoever. Curious about how you're going about organizing yours.

---
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

“Man has been a murderer forever.”

- Peter Matthiessen.


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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Eric Weir]

> On Nov 10, 2015, at 2:41 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> 
> The catalog database points to the image files in the file system, not the 
> other way around. You open a catalog/database … from there you see what image 
> files it points to and what folder it records them as being contained in. 
> 
> The specific layout of your system is hard to understand from the description 
> you provide. In (1), are you talking about what you see in Lightroom Folders 
> panel or what you see in the file system (be it Windows or OS X)?

Thanks again, Godfrey. I’m glad I asked again. You’ve opened Lightroom up 
further for me. 

I apologize for the lack of clarity. I was responding to your last 
question—"which entries in the folder panel no longer point to the actual 
files.” In my (1) and (2) I was struggling with that. I was referring to the 
Folder Panel and comparing what I saw in the detail of each of the folders 
there with what I saw in the file system. I ended up leaning one way but 
uncertain. As a result of your last message I feel certain that if I’d gone 
with my intuitions at that point I would have made another mistake. 

> Look into the folders that a specific catalog shows in Lightroom. Then look 
> to see what is on disk at that location by using the Show in Finder (or Show 
> in Windows File Manager or whatever they call it) command (a right-click on 
> the item you're looking at, either file or folder.) Once you see the data in 
> the file, you can backtrack from there to see which drive it's on. That 
> should tell you what data in the catalog you opened is up to date, or not. If 
> the data isn't real, LR should show you the dialog to locate a missing folder.

A point of clarification: I have only one folder of images in the file system. 
There is no point in trying to figure out which one to use. The issue for me—at 
least as I understand it at this point—is which of the folders in the folders 
panel is associated with the most up to date information in the catalog. Or, to 
put it differently, from which of the folders should I ask Lightroom to “find 
the missing folder."

I’ve never done anything with my catalog—and I do have only one—and was simply 
unaware of how it might be used in this situation. Going to it now I can see 
that there are duplicates of many, perhaps all, of my images in the catalog. In 
some cases they appear adjacent to each other. Others are widely separated. I 
don’t know for certain that every image is duplicated. I suspect they are. 

Most importantly, in every case I’ve looked at so far, all the images that have 
been edited are indicated as having been in the same location and thus 
associated with the same Lightroom folder, i.e., on the disk that failed and 
the folder associated with it. The other folder was created when I, as I now 
understand I should not have, imported the backup folder. It seems that the 
data regarding edits was lost when I did that. Therefore I now believe it is 
from the first folder that I should ask Lightroom to “find the missing folder.” 
Before your last message I was leaning toward using the second folder. So, 
asking, I’ve saved myself from another error.

> You can also select the folder or its containing folder in the Lightroom 
> Folders panel and right-click to use the Synchronize Folder command. This 
> will allow Lightroom to interrogate the folder and determine what if anything 
> that is in it is not in Lightroom, or needs to be removed from LR, etc. You 
> use these tools to determine whether you have all the current data and/or 
> whether what you have is up to date in the context of a given catalog. 

As I understand this, Lightroom will have to have access to the images in the 
file system, and that I should go ahead an ask Lightroom to “find the missing 
folders.” I sense that after that the Synchronize Folder command will help me 
insure that I have as complete information as possible on the images in the 
file system. 

Might it also help, once I’ve got my catalog as complete as I can make it, in 
eliminating the duplicate information? At this point all that seems to be 
associated with the folder that was created when I imported the backup database 
and to contain nothing about my earlier edits. 

> Sorry if this doesn't answer your questions directly. Unraveling a slightly 
> mucked up Lightroom catalog database takes time and persistence. You need to 
> look at a lot of things, one at a time, to determine what the state of a 
> particular catalog is and what files it is looking at. Always look from 
> catalog to file system, and then the other way, to determine issues that need 
> to be fixed. 

It’s very helpful, Godfrey. I’m OK with it taking time. And needing to try 
different things.

Do you agree my next step is to ask Lightroom to “find the missing folder”? For 
me the issue is not which database in the file system to point Lightroom to, 
but preserving the most complete information about 

RE: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Malcolm Smith]

Bob W wrote:

> I don't mean to imply that your process is 2nd-rate - I apologise if it
> seemed like that to you, just that hierarchical folders per se are not
> usually the best way of organising most things on a computer, whether
> it's photos or just general files. We don't always have any option
> though.
> 
> You can make this quicker for yourself in your circumstances though by
> importing directly from the SD card into LR and let it put them
> automatically into date-based folders. That would save you a lot of
> time and effort.
> 
> I'd consider doing something similar for scanned photos too. Scan them
> always onto the same unstructured folder and import directly from
> there.
> I've been in computing for well over 30 years so it's not really a
> question of enjoyment, just of knowing how to do stuff to make it work
> well for me, and being able to do it quite quickly.

Thanks Bob. To horrify you further I shoot jpeg on one card and RAW on the
other on everything I shoot, so I download two images to the drive. Most of
my friends aren't remotely interested in photography but like copies of
pictures if we've been out together, so a quick image I can quickly reduce
in size to e-mail bypassing software altogether is actually useful for me as
well. 

I will look at doing as you suggest above, but it will mean me getting used
to a new process when it's pass the computer. In the early evening, it can
often take me two goes to type as much as this, as someone needs this for
homework etc..

Time for bed.

Malcolm 


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RE: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Malcolm Smith]

Eric Weir wrote:

> Thanks, Malcolm. As I said in my previous post, I’ve never done
> anything with my catalog. The notion of an “organized” catalog
> intrigues me. Again, I have only one. Every image I’ve ever taken has
> been just dumped into it. There’s no structure whatsoever. Curious
> about how you're going about organizing yours.

Not sure how this will help you, as generally I work in a very different way to 
most folk. Anyway, this is it:

When I first got Lightroom, I imported my digital pictures from the hard disc, 
to allow it to connect to the full image on the disc. At that point, all my 
work was in date order. As I still write a daily diary (and here I assume most 
people don't) this was a sensible way to do things for me. However, at some 
point under an entirely different heading on the spare drive, I found about 
2000+ images I thought I'd lost some time ago. It must have been a hangover 
from a transfer from an earlier computer, but with this and the continual 
adding of new pictures, the date order system could no longer work. 

I therefore rearranged the files on the hard disc into category and made a sub 
folder for each new set coming in to the relevant category. This allowed me to 
slot in the lost images and have a home for the new as they arrived in a 
logical order. What I became aware of very quickly, is by moving things around 
on the disc, whilst it made it easy for me, Lightroom could no longer find a 
large number of the pictures, so I had some fun (ongoing) to restore the links. 
It's quite a simple process and I do it when I find the one I'm looking for has 
a broken link. As I said earlier, if I'd known ahead of time how things would 
turn out, I'd have re-organised before importing.

Lastly, I don't import directly into Lightroom. Because I share the computer, 
it drives my wife nuts that photos automatically want to go in via Lightroom 
and some are hers and that's not what she wants. I have my images moved to new 
or relevant files and then import from there. Takes a few minutes longer but it 
works for me and I have no trouble importing that way. As I'm importing files 
regularly now from slide or negative scans, doing it this way also helps me to 
categorise pictures I took up to 30 years ago.

Now you need to get a reply from someone who uses it the way Adobe intended you 
to!

Malcolm


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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Bob W-PDML]

On 11 Nov 2015, at 18:46, Malcolm Smith  wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> Lastly, I don't import directly into Lightroom. Because I share the computer, 
> it drives my wife nuts that photos automatically want to go in via Lightroom 
> and some are hers and that's not what she wants. I have my images moved to 
> new or relevant files and then import from there. Takes a few minutes longer 
> but it works for me and I have no trouble importing that way. As I'm 
> importing files regularly now from slide or negative scans, doing it this way 
> also helps me to categorise pictures I took up to 30 years ago.
> 

You should import the photos directly from the SD card into Lightroom and let 
LR put them into the folder you've designated. In the Import dialog specify the 
keywords that apply to most of the photos (who, what, where - when is already 
in the metadata), and use a standard metadata thing for your static details.

When it has finished importing use the Latest Import collection, or whatever 
it's called, to identify the photos, then fine tune the keywords on a per-photo 
basis as needed. If you have time you could also quickly rank them and / or 
create a collection for the ones you want to come back to later. 

If you're reasonably clever with your keywords you can always find what you 
want.

B
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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Bob W-PDML]

On 11 Nov 2015, at 12:50, Malcolm Smith  wrote:
> 
> Godfrey DiGiorgi wrote:
> 
>> Sorry if this doesn't answer your questions directly. Unraveling a
>> slightly mucked up Lightroom catalog database takes time and
>> persistence. You need to look at a lot of things, one at a time, to
>> determine what the state of a particular catalog is and what files it
>> is looking at. Always look from catalog to file system, and then the
>> other way, to determine issues that need to be fixed.
> 
> It's so important to get Lightroom to set the catalogue database right from 
> the start. I thought I understood that, and I also thought that at least the 
> images I had from DSLRs were in a logical order. 
> 
> [...]
> 
> For someone organised, starting with Lightroom should be a big help, but if 
> you don't know what it is you want until you start, you have to live with and 
> correct the errors that you make!
> 

My view, which I implemented from v0.n beta of LR because it is a sound general 
principle, is that you should not confuse the physical organisation (i.e. on 
the disk) and the logical organisation, in the catalogue. Therefore I have a 
completely flat unstructured set of photographs on disk, in one folder (but see 
below), and I use LR to catalogue it. That's the point of a catalogue - to make 
multiple independent groups independently of the physical organisation, so that 
they are easy to find and to view in different ways. Folder structures on disk 
are a 2nd-rate attempt to do something similar - you don't really need two ways 
to do it. Occam's law applies.

However, my installation of LR itself does create subfolders on the disk whose 
name is based on the file date, but I suspect I set it up this way while I was 
drunk, or perhaps it was the default setting, when I first got LR. It's 
unnecessary, but quieta non movere trumps Occam.

B 
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RE: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Malcolm Smith]

Bob W wrote:

> My view, which I implemented from v0.n beta of LR because it is a sound
general principle, is that you should not confuse the physical organisation
(i.e. on the disk) and > the logical organisation, in the catalogue.
Therefore I have a completely flat unstructured set of photographs on disk,
in one folder (but see below), and I use LR to > catalogue it. That's
the point of a catalogue - to make multiple independent groups independently
of the physical organisation, so that they are easy to find and to view 
> in different ways. Folder structures on disk are a 2nd-rate attempt to do
something similar - you don't really need two ways to do it. Occam's law
applies.

> However, my installation of LR itself does create subfolders on the disk
whose name is based on the file date, but I suspect I set it up this way
while I was drunk, or> perhaps it was the default setting, when I first
got LR. It's unnecessary, but quieta non movere trumps Occam.

And:

> You should import the photos directly from the SD card into Lightroom
> and let LR put them into the folder you've designated. In the Import
> dialog specify the keywords that apply to most of the photos (who,
> what, where - when is already in the metadata), and use a standard
> metadata thing for your static details.
> 
> When it has finished importing use the Latest Import collection, or
> whatever it's called, to identify the photos, then fine tune the
> keywords on a per-photo basis as needed. If you have time you could
> also quickly rank them and / or create a collection for the ones you
> want to come back to later.
> 
> If you're reasonably clever with your keywords you can always find what
> you want.

Bob, I don't disagree with any of that. I did in my earlier post to Eric
state that someone who uses it correctly should post and follow their
advice.

In an ideal world I would have my own laptop set up for myself and I could
use the software a better way. Sadly, as someone who shares the use of this
computer with several family members, I have to do things in a way that if I
am interrupted I know where I last was. I also expect people are
considerably more computer literate than I am, and as one who doesn't overly
enjoy computer programmes and dislikes computer games, I have two 400+ page
books at close hand to use either Lightroom or Elements. I am far more at
home with a fountain pen and paper. I accept that to you how I am doing this
is second rate, but I'm OK with that because I can make this work for me.
I'm still getting to grips with creating a website a bit at a time, because
whilst I'll be delighted with the finished result, it's beyond me how people
actually enjoy creating this sort of thing.

Malcolm


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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Bob W-PDML]

> On 11 Nov 2015, at 23:02, Malcolm Smith  wrote:
> 
> [...] I am far more at
> home with a fountain pen and paper. I accept that to you how I am doing this
> is second rate, but I'm OK with that because I can make this work for me.

I don't mean to imply that your process is 2nd-rate - I apologise if it seemed 
like that to you, just that hierarchical folders per se are not usually the 
best way of organising most things on a computer, whether it's photos or just 
general files. We don't always have any option though.

You can make this quicker for yourself in your circumstances though by 
importing directly from the SD card into LR and let it put them automatically 
into date-based folders. That would save you a lot of time and effort.

I'd consider doing something similar for scanned photos too. Scan them always 
onto the same unstructured folder and import directly from there.

> I'm still getting to grips with creating a website a bit at a time, because
> whilst I'll be delighted with the finished result, it's beyond me how people
> actually enjoy creating this sort of thing.

I've been in computing for well over 30 years so it's not really a question of 
enjoyment, just of knowing how to do stuff to make it work well for me, and 
being able to do it quite quickly.

B
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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Eric Weir]

> On Nov 9, 2015, at 8:08 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> I am uncertain at this point which of the folders in LR points to the actual 
> files, i.e., the files on the reformatted and renamed drive from which they 
> were imported. There are indications in favor of both. 
> 
> (1) There is a recent subfolder in one of them (My Book 2) that has two 
> images that also exist on the reformatted-renamed drive. The other folder (My 
> Book 1) does not have that subfolder. Another has 13 images, and the same 
> folder on the reformatted-renamed drive also has 13 images, while the My 
> Book1 folder in LR has only 6. This suggests My Book 2 points to the database 
> on the reformatted-renamed drive. 
> 
> (2) However, LR indicates different numbers of images in the two folders, 
> with My Book 2 having more than My Book 1. This discrepancy exists in 
> subfolders going back as far as 2010. I am not certain what to make of it. On 
> the one hand, I’m certain that I have not added any images to folders that 
> far back since the last use of My Book !, i.e., since the drive failed. That 
> seems to suggest that the My Book 1 folder points to the database on the 
> reformatted-renamed drive. On the other hand, neither have any images been 
> removed that far back, and that undermines the assumption that the My Book 1 
> folder points to the images on the disk.
> 
> If the database on the reformatted-renamed disk were an up-to-date copy of 
> the one on the drive that failed, this discrepancy should not exist. In spite 
> of it, I am inclined to go with (1). I know for a fact that there are images 
> on the drive that My Book 1 knows nothing about while My Book 2 does.
> 
> I am puzzled as to why right-clicking on the folder doesn’t present the 
> option of updating the folder location.

Taking your advice about “asking first,” Godfrey, what do you think? Should I 
give the My Book 2 folder in LR a try, i.e., see if its the one that’s pointing 
to my database?

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

“[I]t is a sign of great inner insecurity to be hostile to the unfamiliar.”

- Anais Nin







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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

> On Nov 10, 2015, at 7:26 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
>> On Nov 9, 2015, at 8:08 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
>> 
>> I am uncertain at this point which of the folders in LR points to the actual 
>> files, i.e., the files on the reformatted and renamed drive from which they 
>> were imported. There are indications in favor of both. 
>> 
>> (1) There is a recent subfolder in one of them (My Book 2) that has two 
>> images that also exist on the reformatted-renamed drive. The other folder 
>> (My Book 1) does not have that subfolder. Another has 13 images, and the 
>> same folder on the reformatted-renamed drive also has 13 images, while the 
>> My Book1 folder in LR has only 6. This suggests My Book 2 points to the 
>> database on the reformatted-renamed drive. 
>> 
>> (2) However, LR indicates different numbers of images in the two folders, 
>> with My Book 2 having more than My Book 1. This discrepancy exists in 
>> subfolders going back as far as 2010. I am not certain what to make of it. 
>> On the one hand, I’m certain that I have not added any images to folders 
>> that far back since the last use of My Book !, i.e., since the drive failed. 
>> That seems to suggest that the My Book 1 folder points to the database on 
>> the reformatted-renamed drive. On the other hand, neither have any images 
>> been removed that far back, and that undermines the assumption that the My 
>> Book 1 folder points to the images on the disk.
>> 
>> If the database on the reformatted-renamed disk were an up-to-date copy of 
>> the one on the drive that failed, this discrepancy should not exist. In 
>> spite of it, I am inclined to go with (1). I know for a fact that there are 
>> images on the drive that My Book 1 knows nothing about while My Book 2 does.
> 
> Taking your advice about “asking first,” Godfrey, what do you think? Should I 
> give the My Book 2 folder in LR a try, i.e., see if its the one that’s 
> pointing to my database?

The catalog database points to the image files in the file system, not the 
other way around. You open a catalog/database … from there you see what image 
files it points to and what folder it records them as being contained in. 

The specific layout of your system is hard to understand from the description 
you provide. In (1), are you talking about what you see in Lightroom Folders 
panel or what you see in the file system (be it Windows or OS X)? 

Look into the folders that a specific catalog shows in Lightroom. Then look to 
see what is on disk at that location by using the Show in Finder (or Show in 
Windows File Manager or whatever they call it) command (a right-click on the 
item you're looking at, either file or folder.) Once you see the data in the 
file, you can backtrack from there to see which drive it's on. That should tell 
you what data in the catalog you opened is up to date, or not. If the data 
isn't real, LR should show you the dialog to locate a missing folder. 

You can also select the folder or its containing folder in the Lightroom 
Folders panel and right-click to use the Synchronize Folder command. This will 
allow Lightroom to interrogate the folder and determine what if anything that 
is in it is not in Lightroom, or needs to be removed from LR, etc. You use 
these tools to determine whether you have all the current data and/or whether 
what you have is up to date in the context of a given catalog. 

Sorry if this doesn't answer your questions directly. Unraveling a slightly 
mucked up Lightroom catalog database takes time and persistence. You need to 
look at a lot of things, one at a time, to determine what the state of a 
particular catalog is and what files it is looking at. Always look from catalog 
to file system, and then the other way, to determine issues that need to be 
fixed. 

G
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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Eric Weir]

> On Nov 8, 2015, at 6:46 PM, Godfrey DiGiorgi  wrote:
> 
> I see questions like this constantly. 
> 
> 1- understand how Lightroom interacts with the file system BEFORE you do 
> something and then have to figure out to fix it. 
> 
> 2- when you don't understand something, ask questions BEFORE you try things. 
> 
> 3- when you're learning stuff, make a small, temporary catalog folder and 
> image file repository to experiment with BEFORE you apply actions to your 
> large working catalog to be sure it operates as you expected from your 
> understanding. 
> 
> Your image files are not in the LR catalog. The catalog *references* your 
> image files wherever you happen to put them in the file system. So let's say 
> you have a LR catalog on your home drive and you import a bunch of files on 
> an external drive "in place".. that is, without copying or moving them. The 
> LR catalog now knows about those files and let's you work on them, with them, 
> but *the files themselves have not moved and by working with them, they 
> themselves are not changed*. All that happens as you work on them is that LR 
> records what you did, adding those instructions to the catalog entry for the 
> images you touched, and updates the previews it uses to display your work in 
> the .LRDATA file in the catalog folder. 
> 
> Presumably, you have a backup system that backs up both the original files on 
> the external drive and the catalog folder to another, separate hard drive. 
> 
> Now, let's consider what happens if/when the external drive containing  the 
> imported files breaks and you lose it. You get another new external drive, 
> you go to your backup drive and copy the image files onto it. Then you run LR 
> and, WITHOUT reimporting anything, you right-click on the folder that 
> contains your image files in the Folders panel and choose the command to 
> "update folder location".  Once you do that, LR updates all the catalog 
> entries so that it now understands all the new locations where the files are 
> located. You're done, just keep on working. 
> 
> Let's next consider what happens if the opposite occurs—namely, the disk 
> containing the catalog folder breaks. If it's the startup drive, of course 
> you replace it, reinstall the OS, configure your account, and install LR. 
> Then you go to your backup, copy the LR catalog folder that  your work is in 
> to the new drive, and open it with LR. Then you do exactly as you did above: 
> WITHOUT reimporting anything, you choose the "update folder location" command 
> and choose the folder on the external drive where your files are located. 
> You're done again, just keep on working. 
> 
> If you reimport things erroneously when trying to recover from a hard drive 
> failure, you get duplicated info in the catalog and it's hard to determine 
> whether the dataset is complete. To clean it up first requires that you 
> think: 
> - knowing the above about how LR works, what exactly did you import? 
> - Where are the image files located? 
> - When you look at the files in LR, are all your modifications in place? 
> - Which of the entries in the Folders panel point to old information that is 
> no longer valid, or no longer points to the actual files
> 
> Once you have the answers to those questions answered, select the obsolete 
> duplicate information in the LR catalog and delete it. 

Thanks, Godfrey—for the helpful clarification. And the spanking. Since the 
folder on the backup drive was identical to the one on the drive that failed, I 
expected that LR would recognize it and that would be it. When instead it 
suggested importing it did occur to me that it might be good to check with the 
group first. That’s the best I can say for myself. I won’t make that mistake in 
similar situations in the future. 

So, to answer your questions in order:

I imported what I believed to be an up-to-date backup of the database on the 
original drive. There is a separate backup of the catalog, but not on a 
separate drive. 

The images are now on the drive from which I imported them. However, after 
importing them, in the process of setting up the new backup system, I copied 
the database to one of the new drives, reformatted and renamed the drive from 
which it was imported, then copied the database back to it. I assume that is 
why LR does not now recognize the drive.

Because LR does not recognize the drive I am unable to look at my images. 
Right-clicking—actually, it’s gesture equivalent—has no effect. 

I am uncertain at this point which of the folders in LR points to the actual 
files, i.e., the files on the reformatted and renamed drive from which they 
were imported. There are indications in favor of both. 

(1) There is a recent subfolder in one of them (My Book 2) that has two images 
that also exist on the reformatted-renamed drive. The other folder (My Book 1) 
does not have that subfolder. Another has 13 images, and the same folder on the 

Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Eric Weir]

> On Nov 9, 2015, at 8:08 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> 
> I am puzzled as to why right-clicking on the folder doesn’t present the 
> option of updating the folder location.

Oops! Just discovered that it does. I was clicking at the level above the 
folder—on the LR folder, if you will. 

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"What does it mean...that the world is so beautiful?" 

- Mary Oliver 









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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Yolanda Rowe]

Eric, from my own experience, I'd toss the drive that failed. It
probably wasn't a software hiccup that caused the failure. The
mechanical failure will recur--it's only a question of when. I lost a
significant portion of my catalog on one computer under similar
circumstances. I was able to recover some, but not the all of it.

Yonnie

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Eric Weir  wrote:
>
>> On Nov 8, 2015, at 11:10 AM, David Parsons  wrote:
>>
>> In the Library module, right click on the folder, and select Remove.
>> It will tell you that the folder will be removed from Lightroom, but
>> the files will remain on the disk.
>>
>> If you are moving things around outside of Lightroom, don't keep
>> importing them, update the folder locations in Lightroom by right
>> clicking on the folder in the Library module and select Update Folder
>> Location and point it to the new spot.  This way all the work you've
>> done on the files will move over and be associated with the files
>> correctly and you won't have duplicate file entries.
>
> Thanks, David. Now I’m a bit concerned. First, the reason for the first move 
> was failure of the hard drive on which I was keeping my photos. The switch to 
> the other drive involved importing the database on the backup drive, which I 
> believe—though I am now a little uncertain—was up-to-date. I purchased and 
> installed an 8 TB WD My Book Duo (two 4 TB drives), I have a copy of the 
> backed up database on one of the new drives, and would like to use it as the 
> original location of the database.
>
> Something else that may be relevant is that in the process of getting the new 
> setup configured the way I wanted it copied the original backup of the 
> database to one of the new drives so I could reformat and reparation my 
> original backup drive. In the process I renamed the drive (My Book from My 
> Book 2, because there was now only one My Book). So my concern: Have I lost 
> the data on my edits of images in the process of doing what I just described?
>
> Second, right clicking the folders in LR has no effect. Is that because LR is 
> not currently connected to the database? If so, given what I described above, 
> I am going to have to reimport the database?
>
> Thanks again,
> --
> Eric Weir
> Decatur, GA  USA
> eew...@bellsouth.net
>
> “[I]t is a sign of great inner insecurity to be hostile to the unfamiliar.”
>
> - Anais Nin
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Eric Weir]

> On Nov 8, 2015, at 11:10 AM, David Parsons  wrote:
> 
> In the Library module, right click on the folder, and select Remove.
> It will tell you that the folder will be removed from Lightroom, but
> the files will remain on the disk.
> 
> If you are moving things around outside of Lightroom, don't keep
> importing them, update the folder locations in Lightroom by right
> clicking on the folder in the Library module and select Update Folder
> Location and point it to the new spot.  This way all the work you've
> done on the files will move over and be associated with the files
> correctly and you won't have duplicate file entries.

Thanks, David. Now I’m a bit concerned. First, the reason for the first move 
was failure of the hard drive on which I was keeping my photos. The switch to 
the other drive involved importing the database on the backup drive, which I 
believe—though I am now a little uncertain—was up-to-date. I purchased and 
installed an 8 TB WD My Book Duo (two 4 TB drives), I have a copy of the backed 
up database on one of the new drives, and would like to use it as the original 
location of the database. 

Something else that may be relevant is that in the process of getting the new 
setup configured the way I wanted it copied the original backup of the database 
to one of the new drives so I could reformat and reparation my original backup 
drive. In the process I renamed the drive (My Book from My Book 2, because 
there was now only one My Book). So my concern: Have I lost the data on my 
edits of images in the process of doing what I just described? 

Second, right clicking the folders in LR has no effect. Is that because LR is 
not currently connected to the database? If so, given what I described above, I 
am going to have to reimport the database?

Thanks again,
--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

“[I]t is a sign of great inner insecurity to be hostile to the unfamiliar.”

- Anais Nin







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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

I see questions like this constantly. 

1- understand how Lightroom interacts with the file system BEFORE you do 
something and then have to figure out to fix it. 

2- when you don't understand something, ask questions BEFORE you try things. 

3- when you're learning stuff, make a small, temporary catalog folder and image 
file repository to experiment with BEFORE you apply actions to your large 
working catalog to be sure it operates as you expected from your understanding. 

Your image files are not in the LR catalog. The catalog *references* your image 
files wherever you happen to put them in the file system. So let's say you have 
a LR catalog on your home drive and you import a bunch of files on an external 
drive "in place".. that is, without copying or moving them. The LR catalog now 
knows about those files and let's you work on them, with them, but *the files 
themselves have not moved and by working with them, they themselves are not 
changed*. All that happens as you work on them is that LR records what you did, 
adding those instructions to the catalog entry for the images you touched, and 
updates the previews it uses to display your work in the .LRDATA file in the 
catalog folder. 

Presumably, you have a backup system that backs up both the original files on 
the external drive and the catalog folder to another, separate hard drive. 

Now, let's consider what happens if/when the external drive containing  the 
imported files breaks and you lose it. You get another new external drive, you 
go to your backup drive and copy the image files onto it. Then you run LR and, 
WITHOUT reimporting anything, you right-click on the folder that contains your 
image files in the Folders panel and choose the command to "update folder 
location".  Once you do that, LR updates all the catalog entries so that it now 
understands all the new locations where the files are located. You're done, 
just keep on working. 

Let's next consider what happens if the opposite occurs—namely, the disk 
containing the catalog folder breaks. If it's the startup drive, of course you 
replace it, reinstall the OS, configure your account, and install LR. Then you 
go to your backup, copy the LR catalog folder that  your work is in to the new 
drive, and open it with LR. Then you do exactly as you did above: WITHOUT 
reimporting anything, you choose the "update folder location" command and 
choose the folder on the external drive where your files are located. You're 
done again, just keep on working. 

If you reimport things erroneously when trying to recover from a hard drive 
failure, you get duplicated info in the catalog and it's hard to determine 
whether the dataset is complete. To clean it up first requires that you think: 
- knowing the above about how LR works, what exactly did you import? 
- Where are the image files located? 
- When you look at the files in LR, are all your modifications in place? 
- Which of the entries in the Folders panel point to old information that is no 
longer valid, or no longer points to the actual files

Once you have the answers to those questions answered, select the obsolete 
duplicate information in the LR catalog and delete it. 

G

>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 1:15 PM, Eric Weir  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Nov 8, 2015, at 11:10 AM, David Parsons  wrote:
>>> 
>>> In the Library module, right click on the folder, and select Remove.
>>> It will tell you that the folder will be removed from Lightroom, but
>>> the files will remain on the disk.
>>> 
>>> If you are moving things around outside of Lightroom, don't keep
>>> importing them, update the folder locations in Lightroom by right
>>> clicking on the folder in the Library module and select Update Folder
>>> Location and point it to the new spot.  This way all the work you've
>>> done on the files will move over and be associated with the files
>>> correctly and you won't have duplicate file entries.
>> 
>> Thanks, David. Now I’m a bit concerned. First, the reason for the first move 
>> was failure of the hard drive on which I was keeping my photos. The switch 
>> to the other drive involved importing the database on the backup drive, 
>> which I believe—though I am now a little uncertain—was up-to-date. I 
>> purchased and installed an 8 TB WD My Book Duo (two 4 TB drives), I have a 
>> copy of the backed up database on one of the new drives, and would like to 
>> use it as the original location of the database.
>> 
>> Something else that may be relevant is that in the process of getting the 
>> new setup configured the way I wanted it copied the original backup of the 
>> database to one of the new drives so I could reformat and reparation my 
>> original backup drive. In the process I renamed the drive (My Book from My 
>> Book 2, because there was now only one My Book). So my concern: Have I lost 
>> the data on my edits of images in the process of doing what I just described?
>> 
>> Second, 

Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Eric Weir]

> On Nov 8, 2015, at 5:40 PM, Yolanda Rowe  wrote:
> 
> Eric, from my own experience, I'd toss the drive that failed. It
> probably wasn't a software hiccup that caused the failure. The
> mechanical failure will recur--it's only a question of when. I lost a
> significant portion of my catalog on one computer under similar
> circumstances. I was able to recover some, but not the all of it.

Thanks, Yolanda. I learned a hard less a few years back when I had a hard drive 
replaced in my notebook, threw away the old drive, only to discover afterward 
that I had not included my photo database in my Time Machine. 

That said, while I’m not pitching the failed drive till I’m absolutely certain 
I don’t need need it, I haven't been using it. I don’t think I’ll need to, but 
just in case….

--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"Imagining the other is a powerful antidote to fanaticism and hatred." 

- Amos Oz


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Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[Eric Weir]

A couple weeks ago I moved my photo database to a different drive. When I 
connected to the drive in Lightroom it wanted to import the photos again. Now I 
have two folders in Lightroom navigator, only one of which is being used. Now I 
have the database on still another drive. (The last move for a while.)  After 
importing the database still another time I’d like to delete the other two 
folders from the navigator. How do I do this?

Thanks, 
--
Eric Weir
Decatur, GA  USA
eew...@bellsouth.net

"The invincible shield of caring Is a weapon 
sent from the sky against being dead." 

- Tao Te Ching 67


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Re: Deleting folders from Lightroom navigator

[David Parsons]

In the Library module, right click on the folder, and select Remove.
It will tell you that the folder will be removed from Lightroom, but
the files will remain on the disk.

If you are moving things around outside of Lightroom, don't keep
importing them, update the folder locations in Lightroom by right
clicking on the folder in the Library module and select Update Folder
Location and point it to the new spot.  This way all the work you've
done on the files will move over and be associated with the files
correctly and you won't have duplicate file entries.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2015 at 5:31 AM, Eric Weir  wrote:
> A couple weeks ago I moved my photo database to a different drive. When I 
> connected to the drive in Lightroom it wanted to import the photos again. Now 
> I have two folders in Lightroom navigator, only one of which is being used. 
> Now I have the database on still another drive. (The last move for a while.)  
> After importing the database still another time I’d like to delete the other 
> two folders from the navigator. How do I do this?
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Eric Weir
> Decatur, GA  USA
> eew...@bellsouth.net
>
> "The invincible shield of caring Is a weapon
> sent from the sky against being dead."
>
> - Tao Te Ching 67
>
>
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