Re: [Pen-l] ... sinks to new lows
Adios, list. Sabri, please stay in touch -- I would still like to plan another dinner. --ravi On Jul 31, 2009, at 10:50 AM, Louis Proyect wrote: Apparently forced to deal with the almost unanimous opposition to Ahmadinejad by Iranian leftist intellectuals in the West as well as the obstreperous native Iranian commentators on its website, MRZine has printed a breathtakingly demagogic and stupid article by one Bizhan Pouya that links its ideological adversaries to: <...> Given enough time, I suppose that MRZine will begin accusing the “left” (their scare quotes, not mine) of digging a tunnel into Iran from Iraq that CIA agents can sneak through. If the Moscow Trial could have raised this kind of charge against Leon Trotsky, can the finger-pointing accusers at MRZine be far behind? -- Anyone who takes an effort to intellectually challenge the status quo and established habits is infinitely more venerable than hacks defending that status quo and established habits, regardless of the truth function of their propositions. -- W.Sokolowski ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] How Norton Antivirus Sucks?
On Jul 27, 2009, at 11:29 PM, Michael Perelman wrote: Fortunately, Malwarebytes, along with Spybot, fixed it. I wonder what Norton actually does except slow down my computer. It does what every other software on your computer does: remind you to buy a Mac because, as it demonstrates, the cost argument is bogus. --ravi -- Anyone who takes an effort to intellectually challenge the status quo and established habits is infinitely more venerable than hacks defending that status quo and established habits, regardless of the truth function of their propositions. -- W.Sokolowski ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Hamid Dabashi [was: Iranian government takes note of MRZine support
On Jul 23, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Jim Devine wrote: ravi wrote: BTW, I strongly recommend Doug's interview of Hamid Dabashi (available via podcast -- ping me for links). While Dabashi does deliver the goods with some criticism of unfashionable Western leftists, he, IMHO, contradicts the sort of argument that has been made here and on LBO. To summarise his view: 1. Ahmadinejad is a populist. He won the previous election because of redistributive policies. As the word is typically used, populism involves pitting the "masses" against an "elite" (usually a nefarious one). This can go in either a right-wing or a left-wing direction (or toward the middle of the bird). In some ways, Hitler was a populist, one of the most opportunistic sort. Well okay, so how would you characterise the elite in Iran? IMHO, Ahmadinejad is not left-wing by any measure, but given its troubled history, its too early to hope for anything left-wing in Iran. If they can escape the twin horns of neoliberal development or Western interference, that would seem like a good direction to move in. This reasoning may not be airtight, but I believe it's strong enough to not be laughed out of consideration. 2. Khatami & Co who came before/along where reformists and neo- liberals. one of the big problems of Iran is that the politics has been reduced to theocratic populists like Ahmadinejad to non-theocratic neoliberals. The thing about the mass demonstrations is they suggest the possibility of breaking with this poor choice. But AFAICT, Rafsanjani, the other puppeteer, is not a "non-theocratic neoliberal", he is a theocratic corporatist. If you check out the Dabashi interview, you will hear no sympathy from him for these alternatives. The crux of Dabashi's criticism of Ahamdinejad (ignoring the silly "embarrassment" arguments) is that Mousavi, unlike his masters (if I am reading the hierarchy right) and his predecessors (Khatami) is not a neo-liberal reformist but a socialist. That is what, admirably, seems to underlies Dabashi's preference for Mousavi over Ahmadinejad. But is Mousavi a socialist and will he continue to be one? Dabashi offers little evidence for this. 4. Mousavi is a socialist. typically a "socialist" refers to someone who believes in government ownership and/or control over large chunks of the economy. (Even Obama is seen by some as a socialist.) This can go in either a right-wing or a left-wing direction (or toward the middle of the bird). In some ways, Hitler was a socialist, again one of the most opportunistic sort (and even used the word in his party's name). Fair enough. But Dabashi's characterisation suggests he means left- wing socialist. Given that Dabashi does not offer much in way of convincing us that Mousavi is a socialist, and given what happened to the last socialist (Mossadeg) who tried to also appease the West in some ways, one can very well conclude, based on his other opinions (1, 2) that Ahmadinejad is far from the worst thing for Iranians.< yeah, Iran could be worse. Pol Pot could rule. Now you are being snarky ;-). As I mentioned: if Dabashi is right, and Mousavi is a poet, a scholar, and that type of socialist, why would he not get crushed once again by the West a la Mossadeg? I am not claiming to know the answers here. What I am unable to do is to jump on the "Ahamdinejad is evil for the Iranian people" meme, since I don't see the reasoning behind it. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Iranian government takes note of MRZine support
On Jul 23, 2009, at 8:42 AM, Carrol Cox wrote: Michael Perelman wrote: I never disinvited Yoshie. I like Yoshie, even though I never met her in person. If we refer to a policy on the Washington Post editorial page, we son't refer to some mere employee, we refer to the Washington Post or to those who seriously control it. I don't see how Yoshie is relevant to this discussion. She is merely an employee, and I suspect that several people have complained to John Foster about this and have been told to go jumpt in the lake. So lets be clear: The argument is not about Yoshie it is about the politics of Monthly Review. Carrol, to the contrary your analysis excellently outlines why Yoshie is what these discussions are about, not some higher-minded issues. Michael writes: Doyle, you just posted 3 times in a row after a couple of earlier posts regarding Yoshie. The personal attacks don't belong here, but neither do interminable posts bemoaning personal attacks. Well, I don't have a Ph.D, but I do have a Master's like Proyect, and mine included a course in logic, which training tells me that if you do not want the "interminable posts bemoaning personal attacks" (as you characterise them), then put an end to the personal attacks which you believe don't belong here. In case the rest of you think this is benign, I encourage you to visit the links I forwarded earlier, where Andie used a sly questioning format to accuse Yoshie of supporting an alternative of killing raped women, hanging queers, etc: >> So, I take, Yoshie, that your answer is that instead >> of imposing bourgeois wealth and liberties on the >> unwilling masses in typical imperialist fashion, we >> can let the clerics impose Sharia law, stuff the women >> into chadors, authorize honor killings of raped women >> who disgrace their male relatives, beat clean-shaven >> men, hang the queers and stone the adulterers, and >> build a bomb. To which Yoshie responded that this sort of questioning is no different than what one might encounter on right-wing blogs. This, believe it or not, led to calls for an apology from Yoshie. Here are the links: http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2007/2007-October/020225.html http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2007/2007-October/020216.html http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2007/2007-October/020197.html Doyle wrote: You are being selective about how you enforce the rules. To bring this up here is blatantly hostile to me posting. Take you courage and expel me then. The same holds for me Michael, now that you have expelled Doyle. I plan to post 5 messages a day "bemoaning personal attacks" until you act similarly against me. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Re: Iranian government takes note of MRZine support
On Jul 22, 2009, at 10:42 PM, Sabri Oncu wrote: How about a Turkish professor at New York University, Raghu? I am not an "actual Turkish?" I even refuse to hold a US passport, despite all the conveniences that comes with it, and still stick to my Turkish passport. The question is, do the Turks want to have anything to do with you? ;-) These are over-generalizations, logical mistakes in other words: all, every, never, ever and such words should be avoided, whenever they can be. That makes you the anti-Carrol! Hey, before the summer is gone, we should organise another NYC gathering, perhaps with families? --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Iranian government takes note of MRZine support
On Jul 22, 2009, at 9:47 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: On Jul 22, 2009, at 9:26 PM, ravi wrote of my interview with Hamid Dabashi: Ahmadinejad is a populist. He won the previous election because of redistributive policies. You should say that Dabashi meant "populist" in a scornful sense - he practices a vulgar demagogy that riles the masses but which leaves the structures of power unchanged. Sure, yes, true, but I don't have to take it in the scornful sense... we have somewhat similar politics in India in certain regions, and there are differences between the populists, and prime among them was that one of them was redistributive. If you agree with Dabashi, then the entire argument regarding the nature of the election results and ensuing protest falls or stands (in value) on the basis of whether claim (4) is true Not at all. Did you listen to the same interview that I did? To Dabashi the protests are larger than the specific election issue, but are about the kind of society that Iran has become under the mullahs. Many - most? - people are sick of the bearded theocrats and the isolation they've imposed. He said that Iranians want to join the world - a phrase that seems to annoy you, but appeals to a lot of actual Iranians, Dabashi among them. Yes, I caught his use of that phrase (or something very close to it), and unfortunately it continues to annoy me, especially when uttered in a country which epitomises a sort of withdrawal from the world (except for humanitarian interventions) -- we don't play your sports, we speak a different version of the language, we are #1, no your family can't get a tourist visa to come visit us, etc, etc. Of course I would not attribute any such thinking to you, but the phrase is still sort of weird for someone like me who has family that worked in Iran, who had friends in India who where from Iran... how could all this be possible if Iran weren't part of the world? Anyway, I agree that Dabashi said a lot of the above. But we all are against the theocrats and religious fundamentalists. The question is whether one should see Ahmadinejad as synonymous to them, or more as a sort of populist working with them because it is not possible to work against them. I really don't know much about Mousavi, and Dabashi does not offer much help the interview, but if the president of Iran has to work with the religious leaders (which seems to be the case for now), whether he be Khatami or Ahmadinejad, then why not a redistributing populist who thumbs his nose at the USG and Israel? On tomorrow's show: Ervand Abrahamian. I will look forward to that. Also great would be the chap who was on with the lady, both from Iran, sometime last early year (I think!). BTW, I think the Vijay Prashad interview was very interesting as well, but IMHO he was off in his analysis on various points -- I made a mental note of each but now I don't recall any of it, other than that he is wrong, I think, in his claim that the Congress victory was unexpected. I for one would have (and did) predict(ed) it. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Iranian government takes note of MRZine support
On Jul 22, 2009, at 9:26 PM, ravi wrote: On Jul 22, 2009, at 9:09 PM, Jim Devine wrote: snarky, perhaps, but it's not _ad hominem_. Here's a snarky explanation from http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html: One of the most widely misused terms on the Net is "ad hominem". It is most often introduced into a discussion by certain delicate types, delicate of personality and mind, whenever their opponents resort to a bit of sarcasm. As soon as the suspicion of an insult appears, they summon the angels of ad hominem to smite down their foes, before ascending to argument heaven in a blaze of sanctimonious glory. They may not have much up top, but by God, they don't need it when they've got ad hominem on their side. It's the secret weapon that delivers them from any argument unscathed. This interestingly is ad hominem. ;-) And as is usually the case with personal attacks, whether they be ad hominem or humourless sarcasm such as the above, it should be taken as an inability of the person expressing it to make a rational case for his position. In case it isn't clear, I was referring to ~bonds, not Dr. De. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Iranian government takes note of MRZine support
On Jul 22, 2009, at 9:09 PM, Jim Devine wrote: snarky, perhaps, but it's not _ad hominem_. Here's a snarky explanation from http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html: One of the most widely misused terms on the Net is "ad hominem". It is most often introduced into a discussion by certain delicate types, delicate of personality and mind, whenever their opponents resort to a bit of sarcasm. As soon as the suspicion of an insult appears, they summon the angels of ad hominem to smite down their foes, before ascending to argument heaven in a blaze of sanctimonious glory. They may not have much up top, but by God, they don't need it when they've got ad hominem on their side. It's the secret weapon that delivers them from any argument unscathed. This interestingly is ad hominem. ;-) And as is usually the case with personal attacks, whether they be ad hominem or humourless sarcasm such as the above, it should be taken as an inability of the person expressing it to make a rational case for his position. I am in no manner embarrassed by Yoshie. I think one has to be a certain delicate type of personality and mind ... you get the picture... ;-) BTW, I strongly recommend Doug's interview of Hamid Dabashi (available via podcast -- ping me for links). While Dabashi does deliver the goods with some criticism of unfashionable Western leftists, he, IMHO, contradicts the sort of argument that has been made here and on LBO. To summarise his view: 1. Ahmadinejad is a populist. He won the previous election because of redistributive policies. 2. Khatami & Co who came before/along where reformists and neo-liberals. 3. Ahmadinejad is embarrassing because of his utterances w.r.t Holocaust, etc. 4. Mousavi is a socialist. If you agree with Dabashi, then the entire argument regarding the nature of the election results and ensuing protest falls or stands (in value) on the basis of whether claim (4) is true (while Dabashi may be embarrassed by Ahmadinejad, that should have no persuasive force with us). Given that Dabashi does not offer much in way of convincing us that Mousavi is a socialist, and given what happened to the last socialist (Mossadeg) who tried to also appease the West in some ways, one can very well conclude, based on his other opinions (1, 2) that Ahmadinejad is far from the worst thing for Iranians. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] Harvard professor Gates arrested - CNN.com
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/07/21/massachusetts.harvard.professor.arrested/index.html?eref=rss_topstories African-American scholar and Harvard University professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. was arrested last week on a charge of disorderly conduct after a confrontation with an officer at his home, according to a Cambridge, Massachusetts, police report. Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. was arrested last week on a charge of disorderly conduct. <> According to the report, officers responded to a call Thursday from a woman who said she saw "a man wedging his shoulder into the front door" at Gates' house near the university. The report, obtained by CNN affiliate WCVB-TV, indicates Gates refused to identify himself to a police officer, claiming the officer was a racist. Sgt. James Crowley of the Cambridge Police Department stated in the report that he told Gates he was investigating a report of a break-in at the residence. According to the report, Gates "opened the front door and exclaimed, 'Why, because I'm a black man in America?' " Crowley wrote in the report that he warned Gates two times he was becoming disorderly. After Gates continued to yell and accuse him of racial bias, Crowley wrote he arrested Gates for "loud and tumultuous behavior in a public space." <...> --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] The Noam Chomsky show
On Jul 17, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Doyle Saylor wrote:
Greetings Economists,
On Jul 17, 2009, at 10:36 AM, Louis Proyect wrote:
I am not into philosophy, despite having a masters degree, but I
found this puerile.
This has a whiff about it of harassment. There is no content here
to speak of except a very short little judgment. In this case it's
not friendly.
Really? You think so? I just that Louis Proyect had decided to go
terse and switched to Twitter format for YouTube reviews! ;-) Got to
keep with the times! Or perhaps he was trolling?
--ravi
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[Pen-l] The Noam Chomsky show
If at all you are mildly into philosophy, this is hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtckVng_1a0 --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] (Fwd) Overaccumulation, concedes WB
On Jul 16, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Jim Devine wrote: isn't this admitting the existence of unused capacity rather than that of overaccumulation? Unused capacity could arise from excessive fixed investment (overaccumulation), but it could also result from falling consumer demand. Jim, this sort of question occurred to me as well, but now what you write above makes it trickier for me. You posit "existence of unused capacity" against "overaccumulation", but then describe unused capacity as the result of either accumulation (defined as excessive fixed investment) or consumer demand. Am I understanding you wrong, or did you mean to contrast between excessive fixed investment and falling consumer demand? At the end of the dot-com boom, there was a glut of [communications backbone] infrastructure that many companies bought for pennies from the bankrupt ones (e.g: Global Crossing). At the same time, there wasn't the ability to monetise these assets, so they just sat on them -- though, in that case, there were tricky technological and cost issues (last mile bandwidth costs, in the case of networks) not lack of consumer demand. In this case, as per Krugman, the problem seems to be a glut of savings with no investment opportunity, because corporations do not want to borrow and build. But the WB guy seems to be saying that corporations already have excess capacity to produce stuff, and the problem is that nobody wants to buy. In either case, the prescription from both Krugman and the WB guy seems to be the same (and appropriate in my naive view): get the government to take those savings and become a consumer of last resort. And the government can only consumer certain kinds of things (e.g: public infrastructure). Please explain! --ravi Of course, either way, the IMF's standard policies are inappropriate, more punishment than cure. BTW, in the ECONOMIC REPORT OF THE PRESIDENT, the US Council of Economic Advisers "admitted" the role of overaccumulation when describing the 2001 recession. On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 7:47 AM, Patrick Bond wrote: (... but IMF economists have told the SA government - and many others - to cut fiscal stimulus by running a budget surplus, those pre- Keynesian fools.) World Bank Sees Deflation Risk from Excess Capacity. "A failure to address excess capacity in the global economy may cause a 'deflationary spiral' that would prolong the financial crisis and result in more company bailouts, World Bank Chief Economist Justin Lin said. 'Once excess capacity appears, the economy gets trapped in a vicious cycle,' he said during a lecture at South Africa's University of Pretoria. Investments made by companies between 2002 and 2007 have now turned into surplus capacity following the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. If excess capacity isn't eliminated, more jobs may be lost and corporate bankruptcies surge as spending and investments slide, compounding the crisis, Lin said. ... Governments around the world should direct their fiscal stimulus to projects in developing economies with 'returns high enough to generate higher growth,' and which will ease infrastructure bottlenecks, create jobs and improve productivity, Lin said. 'The main policy objective should be to create demand as quickly and efficiently as possible.' ..." [Bloomberg] The Daily Telegraph notes that Lin "...said idle factories threaten to trap economies in a vicious cycle, risking further spasms of financial stress and requiring yet more rescue packages. ... 'No country can count on currency depreciation and exports as a way out. Unless we deal with excess capacity, it will wreak havoc on all countries,'' he said. Investment should be focused on infrastructure in poor countries, where 50 million people are being pushed into extreme poverty this year. Lin said $30 trillion had been wiped off global stock markets and $4 trillion off US house prices, creating deflationary head winds. ..." [The Daily Telegraph (UK)/Factiva] ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] (Fwd) Overaccumulation, concedes WB
On Jul 16, 2009, at 10:47 AM, Patrick Bond wrote: "A failure to address excess capacity in the global economy may cause a 'deflationary spiral' that would prolong the financial crisis and result in more company bailouts, World Bank Chief Economist Justin Lin said. 'Once excess capacity appears, the economy gets trapped in a vicious cycle,' he said during a lecture at South Africa's University of Pretoria. Investments made by companies between 2002 and 2007 have now turned into surplus capacity following the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression. If excess capacity isn't eliminated, more jobs may be lost and corporate bankruptcies surge as spending and investments slide, compounding the crisis, Lin said. ... Patrick, do you see this as pretty much validating Paul Krugman's response to Niall Ferguson: One way to think about the global crisis is a vast excess of desired savings over willing investment. We have a global savings glut. Another way to say it is we have a global shortage of demand. Those are equivalent ways of saying the same thing. So we have this global savings glut, which is why there is, in fact, no upward pressure on interest rates. There are more savings than we know what to do with. If we ask the question "Where will the savings come from to finance the large US government deficits?," the answer is "From ourselves." The Chinese are not contributing at all. Those extra savings are, in effect, the savings that America has wanted to make anyway, but that US business is not willing to invest under current conditions. That is the way Keynesian policy works in the short run. It takes excess desired savings and translates them into some kind of spending. If the private sector won't do it, the government will. There is actually no contradiction between the Federal Reserve's actions and the actions of the US government with a fiscal stimulus. It's very much necessary to do both. By buying a lot of private securities, the Federal Reserve is essentially going out there and playing the role that the private banking system is no longer playing properly; by engaging in investment, the federal government is playing the role that businesses are not now willing to play. All that debt-financed spending on infrastructure by the Obama administration is basically filling the hole left by the collapse in business investment in the United States. There is not an excess demand for savings that is going to drive up interest rates. The only thing that might drive up interest rates—and this is a real concern—is that people may grow dubious about the financial solvency of governments. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Re: How Bad Will the Economy Get?
On Jul 15, 2009, at 4:51 AM, Sabri Oncu wrote: Just kidding, For a time when you may not be kidding ;-), here are some links: http://getdropbox.com/ http://drop.io/ http://send.io/ http://box.net/ --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] The Tragedy of the Left's Discourse on Iran
On Jul 14, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Doyle Saylor wrote: Michael, can you do me a favor and comment on this attack? Everybody has a right to ignore me, but this troll attack is a personal attack now from two people. Doyle, I am sure Michael will sign on shortly and comment, but in the meantime, I recommend we respond to every one of these personal attacks. At worst we will get ejected from the list; so what? --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] The Tragedy of the Left's Discourse on Iran
On Jul 14, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: On Jul 14, 2009, at 2:17 PM, ravi wrote: They are (at the least) no worse than Louis Proyect's movie reviews, for that matter. What an outrage. Lou's movie reviews are thoughtful and funny. Doyle is a pious and ham-handed hack. So, if I understand this right: I think Doyle's post as intelligent, detailed and worthy of reading. Then I note that they are no worse than Louis Proyect's movie reviews. You think that Doyle is a "pious and ham-handed hack". And you are the one that is outraged by my remark (which says: Louis Proyect's movie reviews are as good or no better than the intelligent and detailed posts of other contributors)? I don't think so. You have to be kidding me! If there's anything that is outrageous, it is the slinging of these vacuous terms like "pious and ham-handed hack". I'm feeling the need for a vacation from PEN-L. I know the feeling. Much the same as what I feel when I see individuals writing, without clue or real concern, on LBO, about other cultures, groups, and how they view Western styles and clothing in the context of their struggles. But I return to LBO (and PEN-L) anyway, because, as I sort of wrote above, most of the posts are intelligent and worth reading, even with all the personal insults, psycho- analysis, and so on. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] The Tragedy of the Left's Discourse on Iran
On Jul 14, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Bill Lear wrote: On Tuesday, July 14, 2009 at 08:46:37 (-0700) Doyle Saylor writes: Greetings Economists, On Jul 14, 2009, at 8:40 AM, Bill Lear wrote: Yet again the level of disourse on PEN-L descends to the worthless. Doyle; This is uncalled for and does not belong on Pen-L. Michael I expect you do something if Bill Lear continues this sort of comment. You pummel us with drivel for days on end and I'm simply pointing this out. Doug is right, we should just ignore you. You waste everyone's time. Not so. And contrary to what Louis Proyect wrote, Doyle is not a troll but writes detailed posts with his analysis/thoughts. Big deal. They are (at the least) no worse than Louis Proyect's movie reviews, for that matter. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] The Tragedy of the Left's Discourse on Iran
On Jul 10, 2009, at 10:46 PM, // ravi wrote:
I am not sure which one of the many forwarded pieces is referred to
above but at least one was an explicit attack on Yoshie.
Unsurprising. Btw, reference has been made to Yoshie's posts on LBO
-- readers would indeed do well to read all related threats in the
archive. I will post links when I have better connectivity.
And here are some of the links:
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2007/2007-October/020225.html
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2007/2007-October/020216.html
http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/2007/2007-October/020197.html
--ravi
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Re: [Pen-l] The Tragedy of the Left's Discourse on Iran
On Jul 13, 2009, at 3:35 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: On Jul 13, 2009, at 3:28 PM, ravi wrote: Especially in the context of some version of "white man's burden" type thinking that she provides a counterpoint to. Oh, is that what publishing apologias for the Basij thugs? E.g.: (a) That's not all that she writes/wrote. (b) as the MBAs say, there are tactics and there is vision. I may not always agree with Yoshie's support for this or that tactic. But on the vision front, I think I know whose side she is ultimately on. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] The Tragedy of the Left's Discourse on Iran
On Jul 13, 2009, at 3:35 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: On Jul 13, 2009, at 3:32 PM, ravi wrote: This swings both ways. For Iranians, "third world" people, others, the enemy (leftists in the West) of their enemy (local capitalists, colonial and foreign powers, religious instigators), are not their friends. Is that true of all Iranians? Or just the ones you have special knowledge of? It's not an empirical truth. It's a deductive one. So either its true or it isn't, and my special knowledge (or lack) of Iranians has nothing to do with it. But I will tell you this, drawing from something I do have special knowledge of: as someone who was brought up by those with intimate connections to "third world" anti- colonialist and larger struggle, very little of what I read here on these lists gives me any sense of solidarity (this in turn might merely reveal the weakness of arguing based on "special knowledge"). --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] The Tragedy of the Left's Discourse on Iran
On Jul 11, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Jim Devine wrote: Michael Perelman wrote: Why is it that the choice comes down to some god-awful regime and the neoliberal alternative?< It's partly because even among leftists (who should know better) people are wedded to either/or thinking (the "enemy of my enemy is my friend," etc.) If the "Western" media supports the anti-mullah forces (and dissident mullahs) then they _must_ be bad. This swings both ways. For Iranians, "third world" people, others, the enemy (leftists in the West) of their enemy (local capitalists, colonial and foreign powers, religious instigators), are not their friends. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] The Tragedy of the Left's Discourse on Iran
On Jul 10, 2009, at 11:16 PM, Perelman, Michael wrote: I like Yoshie. I don't share her affection for the religious fanatics in Iran. Why is it that the choice comes down to some god-awful regime and the neoliberal alternative? I think presenting these issues as these sort of choices is incorrect. Yoshie has a viewpoint and a thesis. I think its valuable. She doesn't have to be entirely right for it to be valuable. Especially in the context of some version of "white man's burden" type thinking that she provides a counterpoint to. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] The Tragedy of the Left's Discourse on Iran
On Jul 10, 2009, at 1:52 PM, Jim Devine wrote: me: good article! Doyle Saylor wrote: What does this essay say that's new? It says that some lefties are benighted and are embarrassing themselves and what's left of the left by endorsing (implicitly or otherwise) an authoritarian clerical regime. It's useful to learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others on the left -- while shunning personal attacks (as this article does). I am not sure which one of the many forwarded pieces is referred to above but at least one was an explicit attack on Yoshie. Unsurprising. Btw, reference has been made to Yoshie's posts on LBO -- readers would indeed do well to read all related threats in the archive. I will post links when I have better connectivity. -- ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Malcolm Gladwell reviews Free by Chris Anderson
On Jul 9, 2009, at 3:42 PM, Doyle Saylor wrote:
Doug,
You've got to be kidding. Facebook status updates consist mostly of
inane reports of daily life ("I need coffee!" "I just steamed some
sugar snap peas." - actual quotes from my FB friends), or reposts of
material produced by professional journalists. The amount of amateur
or "community" information production approaches zero.
Doyle;
So you down grade that as trivial. So trivial is not worth anything
to you. Community content is actually very important to people, but
the ability to use it on a more complex scale with pictures and
sound is new enough that we don't know yet how that will move
things. Still providing the service is profitable for Facebook.
I have lost Doug's response to this, but I want to quickly comment on
this before I hit the road.
Doug hints at the fact that Facebook is in reality not profitable. But
I think that is not as crushing a point as it seems. Facebook, IMHO,
has tremendous potential to be profitable (as seen in the eagerness of
those willing to invest in it, continuously), but again IMHO, they are
holding out for the "killer" model, rather than start making money
today on more advertising, more user profiling, paid access, etc.
Facebook is not an example of an information source as much as it is a
good example of an online community, in fact a better one than these
mailing lists prone to flamewars and antisocial style of communication
(absent emoticons).
I think Doyle has a point: these technologies, ways of sharing bits,
is new and how and where it goes remains to be seen. We live under
such a overbearing cloud of experts and expertise that we may forget
these things swing both ways: if blogs today borrow their raw data
from professional reportage, today's anointed professionals have built
their establishment (e.g: medicine) on the basis of appropriating
community knowledge.
I am off... more later...
--ravi
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Re: [Pen-l] Malcolm Gladwell reviews Free by Chris Anderson
Doyle, let us agree that old media did not adequately address community concerns and the social aspects of information (gathering, dissemination, analysis, etc). Worse, they often played the part of masking truth and acting as organs. Let us grant all that. Two critiques still remain: One is the simple pragmatic point raised by Gladwell: gathering, dissemination, etc, cost money, and always will. Second, what is replacing the old model is often (a) nothing more than a promiscuous "borrowing" of their labour (most political blogs quote Reuters, AP, NYT, WaPo for actual data or details), (b) worse because it does away with even the pretence of objectivity (small 'o'). --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] Malcolm Gladwell reviews Free by Chris Anderson
"Free" is a book by Chris Anderson of WIRED, previously celebrated for his other work "The Long Tail". Malcolm Gladwell reviews the book here: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2009/07/06/090706crbo_books_gladwell?currentPage=all --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] Goldman Sachs and software theft
Apropos our disccussion on the recent theft of software at Goldman Sachs, I found the money quote. http://platosbeard.org/archives/476 The bank has raised the possibility that there is a danger that somebody who knew how to use this program could use it to manipulate markets in unfair ways,” [U.S Attorney] Facciponti said, according to a recording of the hearing made public today. ;-) --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Re: Employee emulates thieving employer
On Jul 7, 2009, at 11:12 AM, Doug Henwood wrote: On Jul 7, 2009, at 9:58 AM, ravi wrote: In one of the earliest posts on this matter on a blog or web site, one of the commentors ranted that this sort of "stealing" of the product of others is despicable. Another responded that this phrase (stealing the product of others) pretty much sums up Goldman Sachs! ;-) Goldman does it more or less legally, and from people who are less rich and powerful than they. This guy stole proprietary code (and I'm no lawyer, but trading algorithms must be protected under IP law, no?) from someone far more rich and powerful than he. That's what makes it a crime. That's pretty much it. Sabri, I haven't worked in a financial institution, but from what I understand, they have very strict policies on what you can copy to what computer, what you can work on where, etc... a lot of this is in fact regulated by the government. The situation is not analogous to me continuing to work on my code at home... GS probably has explicit rules that prohibit that (or highly limit that), even if they stand to gain from his unpaid labour. So, he probably did break their rules -- it remains to be shown that he did this with the intention of "stealing" their IP (algorithm) or violating their copyright (code). I am just being technical here of course (plus its difficult to muster sympathy for a guy who was making 400k/year and wasn't the friendliest of human beings in professional interaction -- whatever be the higher-level issues involved), and I agree with both you and Doug (above). --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Employee emulates thieving employer
On Jul 7, 2009, at 10:06 AM, Jim Devine wrote: Sabri Oncu wrote: I don't think this Russian guy is guilty of anything. Information has a market prices of $0, is it not? What happens if I "steal" something that has a price of $0? Am I guilty because of that? When a pick a ripe peach from that peach tree in front of the grocery store across where I live, is that a threat to the US national economy or financial markets? the whole idea of the "intellectual property rights" movement is to take information with a zero price and give it a positive price (as with downloaded music). Morally speaking, that information may have zero price, but not in the Brave New World. A point of clarification, if I understand this right: Serge is accused of stealing the software. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Re: Employee emulates thieving employer
On Jul 7, 2009, at 9:47 AM, Sabri Oncu wrote: Ravi: This guy, btw, was a co-worker of mine a few years ago! I am not surprised and I am sure you agree with me: What did he steal? In one of the earliest posts on this matter on a blog or web site, one of the commentors ranted that this sort of "stealing" of the product of others is despicable. Another responded that this phrase (stealing the product of others) pretty much sums up Goldman Sachs! ;-) --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Employee emulates thieving employer
On Jul 7, 2009, at 9:18 AM, Sabri Oncu wrote:
I don't think this Russian guy is guilty of anything. Information has
a market prices of $0, is it not?
This guy, btw, was a co-worker of mine a few years ago!
--ravi
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[Pen-l] Vivek Chibber: The Good Empire
Apropos recent discussions of imperialism/colonialism: http://www.bostonreview.net/BR30.1/chibber.html --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] BBC NEWS | US job losses worse than expected
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8130703.stm The number of jobs lost in the US last month came in at 467,000, which was much more than had been expected. The jobless rate rose to 9.5% in June, from 9.4% in May, as the US economy continued to struggle. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Madoff
On Jun 30, 2009, at 12:45 PM, Jim Devine wrote: me: don't you think that Madoff deserved to be given a chance at parole, so he could get out of jail (say) 75 years from now for good behavior? Peter Hollings wrote: Parole? Maybe if he told us where the money is and helped recover it. $65 billion does not disappear into thin air. I was joking. What good would parole do a man as old as Madoff? No kidding. You guys (Peter, and the other chap who responded with an alarmed "NO!") are scarily proving that leftists lack clue when it comes to humour!! ;-) --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Habib Ahmadzadeh: Mousavi Must Say Which Ballot Boxes He Disputes
On Jun 29, 2009, at 8:12 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: On Jun 29, 2009, at 5:43 PM, Robert Naiman wrote: Like many Iranians, including many Iranians who didn't vote for Ahmadinejad and don't support Ahmadinejad, but whose voices have been largely absent from Western media, even progressive media, Habib is deeply skeptical of opposition claims that the Presidential election on June 12 was "stolen," and has demanded that the opposition provide specific evidence of its claims. Are you all hypnotized by Hugo Chavez? The connection eludes me. What does Chavez have to do with this? --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] A velvet revolution in Iran?
On Jun 28, 2009, at 5:10 PM, Jim Devine wrote: I suggest that rather than wasting your time on such a topic, you Western leftists should think about what you should do in your own countries first. ... of course. If you want us to fix our own countries first, you have to promise to not criticize USAniks for their ignorance of the rest of the world. More seriously, events outside of the US have major impacts inside the country, so it's important for us to pay attention to them. Further, it's important to provide appropriate solidarity; the movement for socialist democracy will necessarily be international in nature. This solidarity involves keeping the US government from sending commandos into other countries, subordinating the IMF/World Bank to international democracy, etc. See, this makes sense. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] A velvet revolution in Iran?
On Jun 28, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Sabri Oncu wrote:
<...> you
Western leftists should think about what you should do in your own
countries first. I am sure this would keep you quite busy until
Iranians do something about their own faith.
It is unsurprising to me that, generally speaking, this point has been
made (in some form) by Chomsky as well as now 3 out of 3 non-western/
white (Sabri, me, and Dabashi) direct and indirect posters in the
thread here and on LBO. Michael Pugliese called me a Stalinist on
Facebook ;-) for saying something along these lines, and then blocked
me from communicating with him! I don't get this sort of righteousness.
--ravi
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Re: [Pen-l] A velvet revolution in Iran?
On Jun 28, 2009, at 12:27 AM, ravi wrote: On Jun 28, 2009, at 12:02 AM, Doug Henwood wrote: On Jun 27, 2009, at 11:27 PM, ravi wrote: Over on lbo-talk, dismissing an argument using the term "anti- imperialist" in an ill-reasoned pejorative way has come to pass for serious debate (a luxury of those who have lived on the right side of imperialism, I guess) Bullshit. Could you provide a quote or two to back up this preposterous assertion? Ping me tomorrow if I forget (I just set myself a reminder as well). If you wish to search the archives: I think Shane had some fancy bits about shibboleths and so on. Here's that one: http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/pipermail/lbo-talk/Week-of-Mon-20090622/009211.html Here's another one: http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/pipermail/lbo-talk/Week-of-Mon-20090615/008815.html The debate on LBO is primarily between Michael Smith and Ken Hanley on one side and a bunch of others on the other. However, the arguments offered and questions raised by both Michael and Ken are not based on an assumption of U.S imperialism. --ravi Me, I am sensitive to people dissing anti-imperialism in any manner. Hence the paranthetical comment. ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] A velvet revolution in Iran?
On Jun 28, 2009, at 12:02 AM, Doug Henwood wrote: On Jun 27, 2009, at 11:27 PM, ravi wrote: Over on lbo-talk, dismissing an argument using the term "anti- imperialist" in an ill-reasoned pejorative way has come to pass for serious debate (a luxury of those who have lived on the right side of imperialism, I guess) Bullshit. Could you provide a quote or two to back up this preposterous assertion? Ping me tomorrow if I forget (I just set myself a reminder as well). If you wish to search the archives: I think Shane had some fancy bits about shibboleths and so on. Essentially, arguments that attribute anti-imperialist pretensions or such to anyone doubting the doubters is a weak rhetorical move. This is not a new point I have raised. In general, I tend to believe that within the community (as opposed to against the common enemy, against whom almost all tactics are justified) arguments based on divining the ulterior thoughts, motives, sentiments and so on of the opponent are fundamentally an admission of inability to offer a substantive and logical rejoinder. Michael Pollak (on the same list) shows how it really should be done. Me, I am sensitive to people dissing anti-imperialism in any manner. Hence the paranthetical comment. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] A velvet revolution in Iran?
On Jun 27, 2009, at 7:08 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: ken hanly wrote: So you do nothing to show that what Khameni says is wrong you simply engage in an ad hominem diatribe. Given that the US is spending money to destablise the Iranian regime and have engaged in attempts at regime change elsewhere what Khameni says is on the face of it quite plausible. Of course the USA is trying to destabilize Iran. But main source of destabilization are clerics forcing their will on the population. I am not sure what destabilise means here... Iran has been fairly stable under the clerics, hasn't it? But one thing seems to be the case: we (USA) are a much greater danger/threat to Iranians than the clerics are. If that is so, perhaps all US leftists should be demonstrating solidarity with the Iranian public by calling for apologies for prior actions and promises of no future ones. Over on lbo-talk, dismissing an argument using the term "anti-imperialist" in an ill-reasoned pejorative way has come to pass for serious debate (a luxury of those who have lived on the right side of imperialism, I guess), but even if you (hypothetical "you") are in favour of the demands of the segments marching against the election results today, a robust opposition to imperialism (in its many forms) seems, just pragmatically speaking, not contradictory but congruent. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] Re: [lbo-talk] Reviving the DiggLeft project...
On Jun 15, 2009, at 1:29 PM, Michael McIntyre wrote: I'd be willing to give it a go. I would download the Pligg 1.0 and then what? No downloads needed. I would set it up on a site and manage it for us, you will only need to contribute links and vote on contributions. Here's what I have done to get us going: I signed up at Slinkset which is a service that provides Digg-like capabilities for custom use. I also set it up to auto-import blog posts to Doug and Michael's blogs. See: http://left.slinkset.com/ Note that this is not Pligg. If we like this service, we can keep it, else I can setup a Pligg instance based on how well this experiment succeeds. I can also register and add a custom domain to either this service (Slinkset) or to my Pligg instance if that's the way we choose to go. I will need suggestions for a domain name (keep in mind that simple domain names are gone, but we may still find some interesting possibilities with the recently announced .me domain: enlighten.me perhaps? ;-)). Aarok Stark mentioned that someone in Z Mag was attempting something similar. If you have more info please let me know. I would rather not duplicate and split work already underway. MM On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:44 AM, ravi wrote: All, if you do not know what Digg is, it’s a site where people submit links to web pages (often news articles) and others vote these links up or down. Visiting Digg will let you view links sorted and filtered using criteria of your preference. There is an open source implementation of the Digg idea called Pligg. A few years ago, I proposed that I set up a "Pligg" that caters to our interests. All of you can post links to news and blogs you think would be of interest and the rest can vote on them. Crowd-sourcing and all that rot ;-). At the time of my proposal, there were few takers, but now that even our host is a blogger, and tech comfort and interest might have increased, it's time to reissue my call for interest. Would you find such a service useful? A means to both get to know news and analysis and to filter it using the collective wisdom of your comrades. See Digg here: http://digg.com/ Learn about Pligg here: http://www.pligg.com/ For the project to be useful, we need a small set that is committed to adding links (though I can hopefully auto-create links to known blogs like Doug's, M.Perelman's, etc), and a larger group that will not infrequently vote on subsets of links. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Unsubscription
On Jun 20, 2009, at 9:33 PM, Matthijs Krul wrote: Can I be unsubscribed from the list for the duration of the summer? I'll be on holiday and I don't want my inbox getting a pileup. I couldn't find a guide anywhere to how to do this, so apologies for asking here. There is a way to "suspend" mail to your account, without unsubscribing from the list. See this link: https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l Scroll down to the bottom "pen-l Subscribers" section and enter your email address and click on the "Unsubscribe or edit options" button. In the options, you can set yourself to not receive email. You will need to know your password, and if you do not, you can ask that it be emailed to you. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] Reviving the DiggLeft project...
All, if you do not know what Digg is, it’s a site where people submit links to web pages (often news articles) and others vote these links up or down. Visiting Digg will let you view links sorted and filtered using criteria of your preference. There is an open source implementation of the Digg idea called Pligg. A few years ago, I proposed that I set up a "Pligg" that caters to our interests. All of you can post links to news and blogs you think would be of interest and the rest can vote on them. Crowd-sourcing and all that rot ;-). At the time of my proposal, there were few takers, but now that even our host is a blogger, and tech comfort and interest might have increased, it's time to reissue my call for interest. Would you find such a service useful? A means to both get to know news and analysis and to filter it using the collective wisdom of your comrades. See Digg here: http://digg.com/ Learn about Pligg here: http://www.pligg.com/ For the project to be useful, we need a small set that is committed to adding links (though I can hopefully auto-create links to known blogs like Doug's, M.Perelman's, etc), and a larger group that will not infrequently vote on subsets of links. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Obama and the Iranian elections
On Jun 8, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: Last night NBC Dateline devoted an hour to an extraordinary tour of Iran by Ann Curry that can be viewed online athttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/31156080#31156080 . I have seen the above and also recommend it. I wonder what is driving this finer analysis, all of a sudden! --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Macbook Pro: first impressions
On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2009/06/05/macbook-pro-first-impressions/ Ditch BootCamp and either download and use the free VirtualBox, or buy VMWare Fusion or Parallels Desktop. The last is on sale as part of a bundle, right now, at MUPromo (http://mupromo.com/). Also: http://docs.blacktree.com/quicksilver/what_is_quicksilver --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] cows slandered!
On Jun 5, 2009, at 2:14 PM, Sandwichman wrote:
Can't we call a fart a fart?
Not when it really is a burp. Not even to épater la bourgeoisie.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/feb/17/cadbury-dairy-milk-cows
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/newton/askasci/1995/environ/ENV074.HTM
--ravi
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Jim Devine
wrote:
New York TIMES / June 5, 2009
Greening the Herds: A New Diet to Cap Gas
By LESLIE KAUFMAN
HIGHGATE, Vt. — Chewing her cud on a recent sunny morning, Libby, a
1,400-pound Holstein, paused to do her part in the battle against
global warming, emitting a fragrant burp.
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Re: [Pen-l] The Science Arrow of Time
On May 29, 2009, at 3:59 PM, raghu wrote:
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 12:38 PM, ravi wrote:
That may not be a good example... remember the RISC craze of the
late-80s,
early-90s. After all, Moore's Law is not a real law.
Yes, but the old CISC chips never went away. The RISC technologies
merely increased the menu of choices, which was really my point.
True, but the argument among RISC triumphalists was that their ideas
should indeed replace CISC. But I get your point...
--ravi
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Re: [Pen-l] The Science Arrow of Time
On May 29, 2009, at 2:59 PM, raghu wrote: Or to give a more prosaic example: Moore's Law. CPUs become faster and smaller over time. At some point, this trend may plateau out. But there is no going back. Once we have learnt how to make smaller and faster chips, there is no reason ever to go back to old technologies. The new chips are better in a very specific sense: they can do everything the old chips can and more.. That may not be a good example... remember the RISC craze of the late-80s, early-90s. After all, Moore's Law is not a real law. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Offshore; Food, Inc.
On May 28, 2009, at 3:04 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: ravi wrote: On May 28, 2009, at 2:33 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: “Offshore” might not be the first movie about Indian call center workers—“Slumdog Millionaire” has that distinction ... I am not sure the above is right. For example, see Outsourced, made in 2006, released 2007. I haven't seen "Outsourced", but "Offshore" appears to be a much darker film, plus it is produced by Indians not Americans. Yes, Outsourced is what is charitably called a light-hearted comedy ;-). Interesting to watch at 11pm when I had nothing better to do, but not worth a serious review. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Offshore; Food, Inc.
On May 28, 2009, at 2:33 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: “Offshore” might not be the first movie about Indian call center workers—“Slumdog Millionaire” has that distinction ... I am not sure the above is right. For example, see Outsourced, made in 2006, released 2007. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Prostitution
On May 27, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Jim Devine wrote: Bill Lear wrote: If we had laissez-faire we would have no United States, no General Motors, no unions. We'd still be cave-dwellers. Carrol Cox wrote: This is unfair to cave=dwellers, who seem to have taken care of each other rather more than is the norm today. Who cares about the cave-dwellers? what Bill was saying, I believe, was that with laissez-faire, we'd have no _housing industry_, no big-money construction companies ... we'd still be living in caves. I see your (and Bill's) point, but IMHO the cave-dweller correction matters: a lot of the attraction of libertarian ideas is the misguided intuition that we float around as free atoms and more importantly, that was our original state in nature. To the contrary, human survival was more premised on co-operation and interdependence during cave- dwelling days (thanks to which today a few can proclaim themselves self-made). I doubt you will find any libertarians and free marketers among cave-dwellers ;-). (*) ask not for whom the bell tolls, it Toll Brothers for thee. ;-) Up ~ 5% yesterday despite bad housing news. --ravi (*) which is not to support argument by appeal to nature. ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] supply & demand at work
On May 26, 2009, at 1:30 PM, Carrol Cox wrote:
So you and raghu _are_ on a moralistic crusade against the laziness of
women who work in brothels. They are nasty, while those in factories
are
proper girls.
The point, which should be obvious, is the opposite, but I don't
expect you to be able to see that, so I write this for the record.
--ravi
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Re: [Pen-l] Epigenetics
On May 13, 2009, at 12:57 PM, Doyle Saylor wrote: The term epigenetic was coined by Waddington a left wing biologist in England whose work began in the 30s. The problems with Lysenkoism are well known. The problem here in the U.S. was the tyrannical response in the West to environmental inheritance. The basic ideas were anathema in the West. A cooling off toward the concept of environmental inheritance made sense at the time because the science couldn't go technically deep enough to verify theories. The Soviets should never have gone to doctrinal policies, but in the West this demonstrates more than anything how non democratic is the science. Pinkers book "the blank slate" for example attacking the Blank Slate represents a de facto consensus orthodoxy that was shrouded and protected by anti-left bias. I don't think we disagree. However, epigenetics offers soemthing a bit further. Let's take Genetic patents as an example. I don't think you can claim in the science - ownership of say a plant strain. Because the variability of gene expression precludes a definite engineered plan of development and ownership. Why because this forces upon agriculture and unrealistic plan of plant stasis via a faulty concept of gene expression. Doyle, good post. I suspect the point you raise (the attraction that genic determinism holds for commercial exploitation) is also relevant to the success of reductionism. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] supply & demand at work
On May 19, 2009, at 5:13 PM, raghu wrote: On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 1:41 PM, ravi wrote: This thread has already yielded new information and proved its worth to me ;-). Likewise. I had no idea that the prevalence of exploitation in the sex industry was even controversial before this exchange. It is not so much that the prevalence of exploitation in porn/ prostitution is controversial but that some have adopted a particular counter-critique based on an arguably small set of counterfactuals. The sort of reasoning seems to follow this line: Claim A: X is a Y. Counter-argument B: I know M who is an X but not Y. Therefore no X is Y. The counter-argument B's soundness rests entirely on interpreting Claim A to imply "for all X", which is a sort of universal quantification that is not available or meaningful outside Mathematics (or perhaps some parts of Physics). Another aspect of this exchange I find very fascinating is the tendency to look at every activity from the one-dimensional perspective of labor theory. This leads to some frankly absurd oversimplifications e.g. comparing sex work with factory labor. Indeed. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] supply & demand at work
On May 19, 2009, at 4:34 PM, Michael Perelman wrote: I prefer discussion where people bring new ideas and new information. Is this one? Who would have thought Michael is a novelty-seeker! Or a call-girl dating man about town? This thread has already yielded new information and proved its worth to me ;-). --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] supply & demand at work
On May 19, 2009, at 4:04 PM, raghu wrote:
That's because sex *is* special and not just another form of work.
This is so trivially obvious that I am surprised that it is even
necessary to point it out.
What is trivially obvious is [therefore] grist for non-analysis. ;-)
--ravi
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Re: [Pen-l] supply & demand at work
On May 19, 2009, at 3:48 PM, Shane Mage wrote: On May 19, 2009, at 2:35 PM, ravi wrote: On May 19, 2009, at 2:06 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: On May 19, 2009, at 1:54 PM, raghu wrote: I mean, doesn't it bother you that there are women in such desperate poverty that they are forced to sell their body to survive? This is a long debate, and not for PEN-L, but there are a lot of women (and some men) in the sex work business who would disagree vehemently. But disagree with what? Surely they wouldn't disagree with the fact that "there are women in such desperate poverty that they are forced to sell their body to survive"? Everyone with any sense would disagree that performance of an erotic service for pay amounts to selling one's body (rather than one's labor power). But who would disagree with that there are women--and men, and children--who are forced to sell their labor power to owners of intensely polluting factories (under conditions worse than those in most any brothel) in order to survive? So why the extraspecial outrage when that terrible word "sex" is mentioned? Joanna wrote about this distinction here or on LBO, a long time ago, and I doubt I can put it more elegantly than her, so I will find and forward a link. In addition: That other kinds of human rights violations occur is no justification for one type -- the one type under discussion here. It should be obvious to all that this is the same *kind* of outrage that marks us as leftists. We can, each of us, calibrate our outrage to suit our valuations of the violations under discussion. I have no beef with that. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] Prostitution, poverty, facts, and choice
On May 19, 2009, at 2:33 PM, Jim Devine wrote:
The way to avoid flame-wars is not to avoid hard topics but to
encourage people to respect each others' opinions.
And, as I have learnt, change the subject line! ;-)
--ravi
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Re: [Pen-l] supply & demand at work
On May 19, 2009, at 2:06 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: On May 19, 2009, at 1:54 PM, raghu wrote: I mean, doesn't it bother you that there are women in such desperate poverty that they are forced to sell their body to survive? This is a long debate, and not for PEN-L, but there are a lot of women (and some men) in the sex work business who would disagree vehemently. But disagree with what? Surely they wouldn't disagree with the fact that "there are women in such desperate poverty that they are forced to sell their body to survive"? They may believe that NOT all women who sell their bodies do so out of desperate poverty and for reasons of survival. But that doesn't refute the stated point, since there is no double implication as it is stated. IOW, the statement as expressed skirts the contentious issue of whether "sex work" is possible or can exist in the absence of desperate poverty. In fact, the right argues thus (or similarly), do they not? "Some women choose sex work, therefore no woman does it against her will or choice". It may be clearer if we said "there are human rights issues with prostitution", rather than "prostitution as a human rights issue". But among human activities, prostitution today surely lies on that part of the line where the human rights violations far outnumber the instances of free choice, don't you think? --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Diamond's Question [was: complexity of society
On May 17, 2009, at 1:13 AM, Jim Devine wrote: In the current thread, I never said anything about deferring to anyone with greater knowledge of India, though I would do that. (I was talking about PNG.) Ah, I read this wrong: I don’t know if they created divisions within PNG as much as in India. After all, the country was split between a lot of ethnic groups in relatively isolated small territories before the Brits and other Europeans invaded. They likely deepened those splits, but I’ll defer to those who know the place more than I do. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Diamond's Question [was: complexity of society
On May 16, 2009, at 12:50 PM, Jim Devine wrote:
One big problem with the British in India (and Ulster and Palestine…)
was that they _created_ a lot of those divisions (or reinforced and
deepened the existing divisions) and then used them to justify their
rule. I don’t know if they created divisions within PNG as much as in
India. After all, the country was split between a lot of ethnic groups
in relatively isolated small territories before the Brits and other
Europeans invaded.
Say what? Where's Ian with his reflexivity alert? ;-)
(okay, I admit I snipped out the part where JD says he defers to those
with greater knowledge of India or words to that effect).
--ravi
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Re: [Pen-l] Epigenetics
On May 13, 2009, at 10:50 AM, Doyle Saylor wrote: Epigenetics revives this debate. Lysenko was way in advance of the technical confirmation of environmental affect (Epigenetics) on genes that the Soviets claimed as their own doctrine. It's a good example of how a disconnect between theory and practice can arise politically and have dubious consequences. I would not rename Epigentics, Lysenkoism, though in some sense his theory has merit as a precursor demonstrating the pitfalls of the claim. In the U.S. and Western Europe due to cold war pressures Lysenkoism or environmental impact on inheritance was science anathema and a very good example of the tyrannical aspects of big science. The political linkages to anti-Lysenkoism made any discussion of the topic verboten in public scientific discourse though various marginalized voices may have kept the faith so to speak about environmental influences. Doyle, opponents of Lysenkoism would counter thus: (a) Lysenkoism was also a political activity with its nonsense about genetics being a "bourgeois science" and the purge of geneticists etc. (b) Lysenkoism in scientific discourse, or rather Lamarckism's central idea is the heritability of acquired traits, which at that time went against parsimonious considerations and was arguably ill-substantiated. As you rightly point out, epigenetics could well lead to a revival of these ideas and investigations. Be that as it may, I think your main point, splendidly stated, is significant (and, if I may, is similar to the one I noted in my very first post on this thread): the process by which scientific theses are debated are political (your first paragraph), and these debates and the politics of these debates betray the ideological basis of and pressures on the participants (your second paragraph). --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Epigenetics
On May 13, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Doyle Saylor wrote: Nova had a program on the consensus in science research circles arising about genetics that the relatively unchanging genetic code cannot account for 'inherited' diseases 'weaknesses as thought the genetic code would reveal. Ravi turned me onto a book related to this called "Adapting Minds" which takes on the Selfish Gene (Evolutionary Psychology) concepts of people like Dawkins, or Pinker. The program on Nova explained how a particular environmental impact might be passed down through generations non- genetically. While this idea is not new and some here have noted contemporary accounts of such fundamental shifts away from genetic determinism, a popular media like PBS indicates to me at least that the sort of sway that held for a long time about genetic determinism in the U.S. has come to an end. I would modify that last bit to "is coming to an end". I think Cosmides, Toobey, Pinker, Buss, et al still hold a lot of clout and influence especially in the non-scientific literature. I was listening to a recent interview of Pinker on Leonard Lopate's (or perhaps Brian Lehrer's) show on WNYC and was amused by how much dialled down his aggressive rhetoric was. Each relevant sentence was prefixed by an acknowledgement of the paucity of genes to determine all final outcomes deterministically and the role the environment (and developmental inputs) play in shaping the expression of the genes. If you want another recommendation on the epigenetic turn ;-), I have two recommendations: for the controversial version check out Fodor's recent writings in the LRB and elsewhere (Google: Why pings don't have wings). For the academic stuff, I suggest Massimo Pigliucci at Stony Brook (see, e.g: http://www.amazon.com/gp/blog/post/PLNK3EC629BEDKT8X, http://web.me.com/christinalrichards/Portfolio/Epigenetics.html , http://www.landesbioscience.com/journals/cc/article/ pigliucciCC2-1.pdf (incomplete), etc. Adapting Minds is an important book (as I mentioned to Doug off-list) also because it corrects some of the incomplete or incorrect arguments offered by Gould against EP. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Thoughts on science, for idiots, from Lewontin
On May 8, 2009, at 10:38 PM, Sabri Oncu wrote: --ravi, pen-l useless idiot #1 I am offended Ravi! How dare you claim my #1 position? I apologise! ;-) Any comments on disasters I mentioned earlier? Let me know what you think: do disasters come as Bernoulli or Poisson? Sabri, I dare not comment. I am currently scratching my head as vague memories of discrete probability distributions swirl around within. But I would be very interested to see a thread develop. Even if you retain or change the subject ;-). --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Internet threads and individual preferences
On May 10, 2009, at 8:45 PM, Louis Proyect wrote:
Dude, I don't want to waste my time opening emails that have Jared
Diamond in the subject heading but are about some other stupid shit.
Just take the fucking trouble next time to change the heading if you
want to change the subject.
You should make that well-worded appeal to Carrol, not me.
--ravi
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[Pen-l] Internet threads and individual preferences
haviour, Carrol worries that I am indulging in mental telepathy or some such. He is trivially correct: indeed I cannot peer into Diamond's mind. But the point is what this style of writing represents, as Chomksy notes in his comments about polite intellectual debate. Certain thoughts/ideas/ considerations are off the table in the current climate, and anything that smells like feel good "multiculturalism" or "relativism" is one of them (I also mention why I think this is the case). This is not so much an issue of what goes on in the minds of others but about what the environment is in which they wish to publish their thoughts. There is nothing new or even particularly controversial in all this. E.O.Wilson felt that all attempts on his part to advance his sociobiology thesis were thwarted by politically motivated protest. Similarly for those on the other side who today wish to bring up group selection. Lynn Margulis, whose contribution to 20th century biology is revolutionary, is laughed out of court (at least AFAICT) not simply because some of her holistic ideas are less well-substantiated but because they do not fit the analytical mood. So on and so forth. 6) Since this has been morphed into a debate about science (and the various ambiguities that Carrol is introducing with capitalisation and such), Shane's points are worth restating. The problem with astrology, if any, is that it is what Lakatos would call a degenerative research programme. As Shane notes (if I am reading him correctly), astrologers have attempted to respond to empirical data with hypothesis (most of them testable), and even developed theories that have predictive power. Their hypotheses included the spherical nature of the earth, their techniques included identification of constellations, calculations to predict the path of planets, and so on. Even by [naive] falsificationism, there is good reason to reject vague demarcation that finds astrology on the wrong side of many activities in academia that include the term "science" in their title. Lewontin, once again in the quotes I posted, points out not just this, but further that ideas such as verificationism and falsificationism, offered to define or demarcate "science", suffer various inadequacies. Carrol of course will read from this some sort of hostility from me towards science or scientific activity, but that is not just wrong but self-serving. My hostility is not towards science, especially not towards scientific activity (which is an at once opportunistic and parsimonious affair and is quite different from what is described by its fanboys and false defenders), but to those individuals (or more correctly, the theses offered by them: e.g Summers on women, Sokal/ Weinberg/Gross/Levitt/et al on matters outside their expertise as Lewontin -- quote later -- and Stolzenberg point out, Watson on black people, so on) who would narrowly define science to further a private agenda (e.g pomo bashing), glom on to its reputation in order gain credibility for their position, or offer meaningless lines of demarcation that accrue all productive rational human activities and gains, both in terms of knowledge and in technique, to their ill- demarcated caricature. With all that out of my way, I want to add one more thing: I do not consider this a spat between me and Lou Proyect. I continue to find his writing interesting, I have quoted him on my own blog, and my response was written in fundamental agreement with the section of his blog post I quoted (and with the rest, implicitly, in their omission). Lou might consider me an idiot (or my response idiotic), but I am now finally old enough not to care. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] Thoughts on science, for idiots, from Lewontin
On May 8, 2009, at 10:08 PM, raghu wrote: On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: I can't stand the fact that something I wrote on my blog has triggered such a useless discussion so I have changed the subject heading. I found the discussion interesting. I guess I am an idiot. Me too. In fact I think, following an old Internet tradition I will start incorporating this into my signature. BTW, below is Lewontin (NYRB) on a host of issues raised: (a) what constitutes "science" (and what is claimed to be "not science"), especially the definitions that are offered (e.g: falsificationism), (b) what dominant ideas/themes/attitudes/approaches were (at the time of his writing: 1998) in the fields of science he writes about, (c) the separation between science (knowledge) and technology (application/ manipulation), and so on. What about human behavioral genetics, most of whose published experiments would not pass the methodological and statistical requirements of standard animal breeding journals, largely because of the special difficulties involved in studying humans? Or behavioral ecology, which consists largely of telling plausible but unfalsifiable stories? And then there is developmental biology, completely dominated at the present time by the manifestly false assumption that all the information necessary to specify an organism is contained in that organism's genes, while totally ignoring the uncontroversial fact, supported by copious data, that the environment in which development occurs makes an important difference. Why do developmental biologists continue to use and take seriously metaphors like "program" or "computation" or "code of life" or "blueprint" when considering the relationship between genes and organisms? Perhaps we should exclude from science everything that is not physics, chemistry, and molecular biology. All biologists know that DNA is not "self-replicating," but is manufactured by a complex protein machinery in the cell, yet when they describe the results of molecular biology to students in lectures and textbooks and to the public in trade books, newspapers, or television, they almost always speak of "the master molecule that is self-replicating." Well, that's biology. At least physics doesn't suffer from ideological predispositions. Of course Einstein did argue against quantum uncertainty by saying that "I shall never believe that God plays dice with the universe." For Gross and Levitt, science consists of uncontroversial lawlike statements that describe what is "really" true about the physical world, like Newton's laws, or the law of combining proportions in chemistry, or Mendel's laws. It is that simple structure that we all learned in high school. "Obtuse ignorance" is a kind of clumsiness of thought that makes it impossible to consider matters in their real ambiguity and complexity. It is our experience that the collection of practices that we include within "science" does a much better job of enabling us to manipulate the material world than thinking beautiful thoughts or prayer (although, of course, mental states can influence our physical bodies). But much of what we would like to know cannot be known, and much of what we would like to do cannot be done, even by the best methods available. Science is a social activity carried out by organisms with a limited central nervous system and severely limited sense organs. It is, moreover, carried out by organisms who have already gone through a considerable period of individual socialization and psychic maturation before they become employed as scientists, in a social setting that has a history that constrains thought and action. The state of science should not be confused with the state of the universe. --ravi, pen-l useless idiot #1 ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Idiotic responses about threads
On May 8, 2009, at 9:19 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: Learn to use a mail filter, instead. I don't mind drivel most of the time unless it is from case-hardened subscribers. I simply resent seeing my subject heading being associated with drivel. In any case, I do appreciate your willingness to use a more appropriate subject heading. I do hope that everybody else will refrain from posting under the subject heading "Jared Diamond, etc." since you obviously have no interest in what I wrote. I don't know where to start in responding to this. (a) you want us to accept your judgement, especially in the terms in which you characterise it, of our thoughts and the effort we put behind them, (b) change the subject so that you are not in some remote way associated with our thread, (c) believe that my post, which quoted a section of yours and responded directly to it (before Carrol morphs it into a rant against me and his perceptions about me), is an indication that I have no interest in what you wrote. What you mean by (c) is, I think, I have no interest in understanding the issue in the way you desire your reader to and stay within the bounds set implicitly in your analysis. So, you write (approximately) that Jared Diamond echoes older Western attitudes towards alien groups and cultures. My response, which I guess you find unpalatable, is that such an attitude from Diamond is unsurprising to me (and I explained why that is so). I guess its not just the blogistan that is looking for an echo chamber. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Jared Diamond and the New Yorker, part 2
On May 8, 2009, at 8:44 PM, Doyle Saylor wrote: Greetings Economists, It is obvious from what Ravi wrote he is not saying that. You twist his words. Doyle, thank you for that. I was beginning to question my own sanity! --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Idiotic responses about threads
On May 8, 2009, at 8:51 PM, Louis Proyect wrote:
ravi wrote:
My notion of science doesn’t matter. The question is: which side,
of the two described above, holds the centre (and power) in science
today?
I can't stand the fact that something I wrote on my blog has
triggered such a useless discussion so I have changed the subject
heading.
Learn to use a mail filter, instead.
--ravi
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Re: [Pen-l] Jared Diamond and the New Yorker, part 2
On May 8, 2009, at 8:16 PM, Carrol Cox wrote: If ravi wants to argue with the ad executives who make tv ads beginning "Science Tells Us," fine - but he shouldmake it clear that he is writing off topic, that what he says is irrelevant to what anyone on this list says. Michael, don't you think this sort of thing is a bit ridiculous? Does Carrol really speak for the list and is he even half-right in this sort of characterisation? If he is, then I would be glad to shut up, --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Jared Diamond and the New Yorker, part 2
On May 8, 2009, at 6:43 PM, raghu wrote: I think Ravi was objecting to the tyranny of science. Science in the 21'st century has become what the Bible was in the middle ages - the ultimate arbiter of every important question. That's approximately my usual lament, but in this case my point is simpler: Jared Diamond is interested in impressing and maintaining stature among fellow intellectuals and scientists and in the current climate that means to pooh-pooh at what is considered romanticising of other cultures and other such sentimentalities. Similar to Summers on women: I have the best interests of women at heart, trust me, but it’s a sad truth of hard science that blah blah. This attitude is not that different, IMO, from that of other leftists over-eager to distance themselves from any sort of hippie association lest they be found lacking in heft (an attitude which it seems is only at best ambiguously present in their man, Karl). The above is regarding the second point I made in my post. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Jared Diamond and the New Yorker, part 2
On May 8, 2009, at 4:51 PM, Carrol Cox wrote: ravi wrote: The new great white father is scientific/materialism. You mean there is no difference between (say) Pinker & Summers on the one hand, Levins, Lewontin, & Gould on the other? You take your notion of science from the likes of Summers, which puts you on his side of the argument. My notion of science doesn’t matter. The question is: which side, of the two described above, holds the centre (and power) in science today? You have, I fear, a kneejerk response to the word "science," and run around pasting that label on everything you don't like, whether it has any connection to serius science or not. That's nonsense. You have not understood a word I have written, nor (consequently) do you have any idea what I think about science (with or without quotes). For edification (though not to answer your confusion about me), I suggest you take a look at Chomsky's appearance at the Sociobiology Study Group in 1976, and work your way forward from there. Note that I did not write just that: rigour = hard science = reductionist assumptions (the first part is true of most productive human ventures, not just science, and the second part of the equation is just plain wrong). I wrote that that's the lesson that has been learnt (by those seeking a particular kind of advancement or recognition). The list that matters in this newer context is not Lewontin or Gould (one of whom is dead and gone), but Huffington Post blogging liberals like D.S.Wilson. For a meaningful analysis, the last sentence of my post (and the use "scientific" in it) should be read in the context of this ongoing battles within science (not against science) and how it relates to those who wish to be seen as scientific. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Jared Diamond and the New Yorker, part 2
On May 8, 2009, at 3:46 PM, Louis Proyect wrote: So brutal and inhumane were the Papuan tribesmen to each other that when the European colonizers arrived, they submitted to their own “pacification” happily. Finally, the blood feuds would be eliminated by the more civilized representatives of modern state societies. Despite Diamond’s carefully crafted image of himself as an enlightened “multiculturalist”, this analysis is not that different from the ones put forward during the Victorian era. The bloody natives had to be rescued from themselves. I do not find this surprising at all, for at least two reasons: 1. Western leftists/liberals still apply Western mechanisms to analyse other people. So there is discussion of "master narrative"s (and the natives subscribing to such narratives) and all that sort of thing (how else are we going to use all this terminology we came up with?). We saw some of that here or on LBO when everyone other than the brown (me), red (John) and black guy (CB) was waxing on about the "racism" of the claim that random dudes from Saudi Arabia might have some difficulty flying a large jet into tall buildings. 2. Between Sokal and Summers/Wilson/Pinker, and their predecessors, and the fear they inspire, the lesson learnt has been: rigour == hard science == reductionist assumptions == the opposite of woolly-headed feel-good beliefs. Working in reverse, anything that sounds counter to feel good liberalism also sounds like hard science. Summers, summarised: I am a liberal, and I sincerely wish the following is not true, but we *have* to accept what the data tells us, and they tell us that men are indeed better at the really, really, really hard stuff. Doesn't mean we should stop helping women. Just that let us not entertain romantic notions. Heck, some of my best friends are women. The new great white father is scientific/materialism. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] ‘How I Sued a Craigslist Sex Troll’
Not exactly PEN-L related, but might be of interest nonetheless:
Jason Fortuny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Fortuny), in case
you have never heard of him, is a dude that posted a Craigslist ad as
a submissive female seeking dominant ("brutal") male partners, and
then posted all the responses (including "intimate" photographs) he
received on a public site. There was a lot of yelling and screaming
that followed unsurprisingly, with some angry at Fortuny for the real
damage he caused (at least two of his respondents were fired from
their jobs) while others found his respondents deserving of at least
some of the disrepute given their interest in subjecting someone else
to "intense pain" (see http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=74787
for Dan Savage's -- he of "Santorum" fame -- defence of the BDSM
issue).
In April, Fortuny was ordered by a judge to pay fines and damages
amounting to about $75k in a case brought against him by a John Doe
victim (or "victim"), interestingly enough more for copyright
violation than for violation of privacy, etc:
http://www.10zenmonkeys.com/2009/05/07/how-i-sued-a-craigslist-sex-troll/
--ravi
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Re: [Pen-l] computer problem, maybe someone can help
On May 1, 2009, at 12:58 PM, Michael Perelman wrote: I am running XP with the latest Firefox. Can you give us the version number, just to be sure? Also, do you have Firefox extensions installed? Any recently? I cannot attach files in Gmail or Yahoo mail in Firefox on this computer. I can, using Chrome or IE & I can on my other computers where are set up similarly. What happens when you click on the paperclip to attach files in the compose new message page? For me a file chooser window pops up. Do you get anything at all? I have disabled the new way of loading files in Gmail, but that does not help. I have scanned the computer with Norton & with Spybot. They found nothing. I have no other symptom of a computer problem. I doubt it’s a virus. Can you tell me how you disabled "the new way of loading files"? I didn't know there was one, but I don't use Gmail so I wouldn't know. I am guessing the new way is Flash or Java? Ah, in settings I see "Advanced attachment features" which says it needs Flash. I have that selected yet it asked me for a file upload rather than showing me a Flash uploader. The help page (http://mail.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&ctx=mail&answer=114590 ) says that the Flash uploader is used once I select multiple files, so that makes sense. Do you get to that point? Also, if I past a chunk of text, say a paragraph, into Gmail, it hangs rather than sending the message. I have not tried this in Yahoo. Do let us know which exact version of Firefox you are using, and also if you are using any Firefox extensions (add-ons). Has anything changed recently in your environment? The XULElement error you reported is probably not significant. XUL is how Firefox's own UI is built (sorta) and you often see a bunch of such messages for most sites. But I may be wrong on this one. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] BBC NEWS | US Supreme Court judge 'retiring'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8028185.stm --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] Survey: Support for terror suspect torture differs among the faithful
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/30/religion.torture/index.html?eref=rss_topstories# More than half of people who attend services at least once a week -- 54 percent -- said the use of torture against suspected terrorists is "often" or "sometimes" justified. Only 42 percent of people who "seldom or never" go to services agreed, according the analysis released Wednesday by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified -- more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Steven Rattner: capitalist pig of the month
On Apr 30, 2009, at 3:37 PM, Louis Proyect wrote:
When the motion-picture camera was invented, many early filmmakers
simply recorded stage plays, as if the camera’s value was just to
preserve the theatrical performance and enlarge its audience. To be
sure, this alone was a significant change. But the true pioneers
realized that the camera was more revolutionary than that. It freed
them from the confines of a theater. Audiences could be transported
anywhere.
And yet the stream back into theatres in the thousands to sit
uncomfortably on some teenager's chewing gum. Strange, innit?
--ravi
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Re: [Pen-l] By the way
On Apr 30, 2009, at 2:29 PM, Max Sawicky wrote: In case nobody noticed, this morning Barack reamed some rentiers. And one of his peeps has the swine flu. The dude really is slumming it. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] China’s recovery
Link to a BBC blog post that talks about China's recovery and stronger
projections (from Goldman chief economist):
http://platosbeard.org/archives/419
--ravi
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[Pen-l] Google Now Charts Unemployment And Other Public Data In Search Results
Since there are often requests for data and charts based on public data, this might be of interest: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/04/28/google-now-charts-unemployment-and-other-public-data-in-search-results/ --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] euphemism of the month
On Apr 22, 2009, at 2:26 PM, Jim Devine wrote: reallocate their human resources! The British seem to use the term "redundant" as in "I was made redundant". What a horrible euphemism. I would much rather be sacked, laid off, fired, than be "made redundant". --ravi On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 11:06 AM, Dan Scanlan wrote: Right size their incompetent core! On Apr 22, 2009, at 10:48 AM, Sandwichman wrote: Off with their heads! On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:38 AM, Jeffrey Fisher > wrote: "down-sizing" and "right-sizing" seem positively straightforward by comparison. On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Jim Devine wrote: "synergy-related headcount reductions" -- repeated about six times (in different forms) in a one-paragraph press release by Nokia Siemens Networks, published in HARPER'S MAGAZINE, May 2009, p. 25. ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Identi.ca for Twittering Leftists?
On Apr 21, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Jim Devine wrote: I've never understood the reasons for Twitter or, for that matter, Facebook & Myspace social-networking sites. What are they? Are these simply transitory fads? I am not sure I understand the idea behind Twitter either (though I posted the info at the start of this thread). Facebook is of value at least for staying connected to friends and family. Beyond that, organising and so on, I don't know. I don't think Facebook is transitory: there is a genuine need for an online resource for individuals to share information, photographs, and so on. Facebook may be a poor implementation, but the idea I think is here to stay. My idea was for us to experiment with Identi.ca and see what sort of transient information sharing is possible for groups using such a service. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] Identi.ca for Twittering Leftists?
Anyone interested in using identi.ca (*) for quick exchange of short messages (i.e., Twitter)? I created a group called "Left": http://identi.ca/group/left You can find desktop clients and tools to help you track messages, here: http://laconi.ca/trac/wiki/Apps I am not sure what we would use this for ;-), but maybe a good way to quickly share links or news updates with the group. --ravi (*) I am not a big Twitter user, but AFAIK it has no support for groups. ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] Obama reconsidered
Despite (and not forgetting) his murderous assault in Somali waters, I am beginning to feel a wee bit positive about Obama in light of his Chavez, Cuba and even Iran, engagement and comments. I think his comment (below) is quite a significant challenge of ingrained ideology and confrontational, binary frameworks: "They would have us make the false choice between a rigid, state-run economy and unbridled and unregulated capitalism;" He goes on to posit right-wing paramilitaries as equivalent to left- wing insurgents (or rather the other way around), which is, IMHO, an insult to the history of the region (Central/South America), but I will take these crumbs, nonetheless. --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Introducing the Obamawatch Lottery
On Apr 14, 2009, at 12:16 PM, Doug Henwood wrote: It's perfect for Obama. He can pretend to support it while letting it die in the Senate, or evolve into something so toothless that it's as good as dead. Duh! Change comes from below, fool! ;-) (sorry, you are not really a fool!). I thought Obama made that clear? He is the figurehead, the inspiration, for a grassroots upsurge that is yet to take place, but is no doubt being planned this very minute on Facebook, Twitter and Oxygen bars everywhere (and by everywhere, of course, I mean Manhattan). If you are not on Loopt, you are against us. ;-) Kidding aside, if Obama does indeed mete out the much advertised dressing down to Israel, even if it is only symbolic, I'd be happy. --ravi -- Support something better than yourself ;-) PeTA => http://peta.org/ Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/ If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/ ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Introducing the Obamawatch Lottery
On Apr 14, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Perelman, Michael wrote:
Charles says said Obama supports Employee Free Choice Act. I don't
count campaign promises is a courageous act. Once Obama spends some
of
his political capital to pressure senators to support the act, I
will be
happy to send Charles his prize.
I would like to add $10 to the pool if a panel of impartiality or
equally distributed bias can be convened. I think DrDe should be the
tie-breaking vote. ;-)
--ravi
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Support something better than yourself ;-)
PeTA => http://peta.org/
Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
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[Pen-l] Wrong Tomorrow - pundits vs. time
http://wrongtomorrow.com/ --ravi -- Support something better than yourself ;-) PeTA => http://peta.org/ Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/ If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/ ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] BBC | Bomb blows hole in Lenin statue
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7976883.stm
One of Russia's most famous statues of Vladimir Lenin has been bombed,
leaving the Bolshevik revolutionary with a gaping hole in his rear.
--ravi
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PeTA => http://peta.org/
Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/
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[Pen-l] Freedom Tower becomes China Center?!
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/27/no.freedom.tower/index.html?eref=rss_topstories --ravi -- Support something better than yourself ;-) PeTA => http://peta.org/ Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/ If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/ ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
On Mar 24, 2009, at 4:42 PM, Bill Burgess wrote: Who do think is being targeted, if not the sealers? The error in your reasoning is the assumption that an action on the part of one person has to necessarily involve another person as a target. "Targeting" is an intentional act. The target of the PETA action is to prevent animal suffering. Unless you believe that PETA workers and volunteers sat around and plotted on how they could stick it to the indigenous people and fishermen. --ravi -- Support something better than yourself ;-) PeTA => http://peta.org/ Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/ If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/ ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
On Mar 24, 2009, at 2:53 PM, Bill Burgess wrote:
Please be a little more critical and reflective about a campaign
that targets fishers and indigenous people who hunt for a living in
the traditionally-poorest province in the country.
I respectfully disagree. The campaign does not target fishers and
indigenous people (for related information, see: http://bit.ly/ohLqk, http://www.caft.org.uk/factsheets/reasons-for-trapping.html)
. The whole idea of such animal welfare campaigns is to raise the
level of critical thought (or even get the majority to start thinking)
about the facts of the 6 billion plus animals that humans torture and
murder on a yearly basis.
I used to work in a cattle/pork slaughterhouse so I know what tender
mercies went into your meat from the supermarket, notably the veal.
Bill, I don't eat meat. And I oppose factory farming of animals.
--ravi
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PeTA => http://peta.org/
Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/
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Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
On Mar 24, 2009, at 2:19 PM, Jim Devine wrote: My problem with PETA is that they tend to value animals over people. Or maybe their PR is so bad that they only _look_ like they value animals over people. (They may be closet humanists.) For example, they're not just against testing on animals to develop make-up (which seems reasonable tom me). They're also against testing human-life-saving drugs on animals. But PETA and Bridget Bardot (if she's still around) are pretty overt with their thinking and seem more concerned with cuteness than they should be. I don't know... I don't find hen (referred to as "chicken" in American English?) particularly cute. A lot of PETA actions protest their torture. Now they may use chicks to symbolise the hens, because indeed chicken are cute, but again that's tactical. The use of cuteness in a tactic prevents a lot of communication with the non-PETA folks. Is there some effort to present the PETA world view to everyday people? PETA believes that their efforts are indeed a presentation to everyday people. And judging from the response from my niece and her friends, it seems to work quite well. For the cerebral stuff, there is Peter Singer. _why_ should we give up on testing pro-human drugs on animals? Here's PETA's take on it: http://www.peta.org/about/faq-viv.asp (they are spot on, IMHO, in the first paragraph, w.r.t the gains in general health) Here's Singer's take on it: "Whether or not the occasional experiment on animals is defensible, I remain opposed to the institutional practice of using animals in research, because, despite some improvements over the past thirty years, that practice still fails to give equal consideration to the interests of animals. For that reason I oppose putting more resources into building new facilities for animal experimentation. Instead, these funds should go into clinical research involving consenting patients, and into developing other methods of research that do not involve the harmful use of animals." --ravi -- Support something better than yourself ;-) PeTA => http://peta.org/ Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/ If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/ ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] computer question regarding proxy servers
On Mar 21, 2009, at 4:34 PM, michael perelman wrote: Why does something change the settings on my system to show a proxy server? That's too vague! What's showing a proxy server? Your web browser? What browser do you use? Does this happen when you are at work and home? --ravi -- Support something better than yourself ;-) PeTA => http://peta.org/ Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/ If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/ ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
On Mar 24, 2009, at 12:25 PM, Jim Devine wrote: what happens if seals over-breed, the way deer have done in many places after their natural predators were killed off? I remember that a lot of deer died from starvation and sickness because they over-bred. NB: I'm not in favor of killing seals for rich people's furs. I'm not in favor of people wearing furs. But since humans are running this planet, we have the responsibility to try to solve the disasters we've created (like over-breeding). The answer is to bring those predators back (which is entirely feasible in many cases)... but really, clubbing other animals to death under the banner of preventing starvation and sickness is not really a better option, is it? We shouldn't be overly concerned with the issue of cuteness. A lot of endangered species aren't cute the way baby seals are. The use of "cuteness" is tactical. Or do you think I encourage list members to oppose this annual brutality because I am worried about the loss of cuteness? ;-) --ravi -- Support something better than yourself ;-) PeTA => http://peta.org/ Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/ If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/ ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
On Mar 24, 2009, at 12:05 PM, Jim Devine wrote: Is an effort made to ensure that the seal population is conserved over the years? I don't know about that. In my case, it is an effort to stop brutal unnecessary murder of other living things. On Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 8:02 AM, ravi wrote: Canada's annual war on seals has begun. This year, sealers will shoot or bludgeon 338,200 of these gentle animals, all for the sake of "fashion." Most of these seals are just babies, and many are skinned alive on the ice while still conscious. http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/seal_hunt_09?rk=zp2EmU4aORwbW ==== --ravi --ravi -- Support something better than yourself ;-) PeTA => http://peta.org/ Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/ If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/ ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] Help Baby Seals Who Are Killed in Canada
Canada's annual war on seals has begun. This year, sealers will shoot or bludgeon 338,200 of these gentle animals, all for the sake of "fashion." Most of these seals are just babies, and many are skinned alive on the ice while still conscious. http://getactive.peta.org/campaign/seal_hunt_09?rk=zp2EmU4aORwbW ==== --ravi ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
Re: [Pen-l] Scorn Trails A.I.G. Executives, Even in Their Driveways - NYTimes.com
On Mar 20, 2009, at 3:48 PM, ravi wrote: This one is a hilarious read: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/nyregion/20siege.html?partner=rss&emc=rss And ends with a tear-inducing view into the misunderstood suffering millionaire's life: The largest single bonus check, for $6.4 million, went to Douglas L. Poling, an executivevice president for energy and infrastructure investments. Mark Herr, an A.I.G. spokesman, said Mr. Poling had told him he was returning the bonus “because he thought it was the correct thing to do.” Gerry Pasciucco, a former vice chairman of Morgan Stanley who was brought in by Mr. Liddy in November to wind down the financial products unit, said Mr. Poling had sold off roughly 80 percent of the unit’s assets. Mr. Pasciucco said the money from the sales would go to the government, which has handed more than $170 billion in bailout money to A.I.G. in the last six months. “He’s done an outstanding job in winding down his investment books,” Mr. Pasciucco said. "He did it at the right time, and we’ve made money. We would be losing money today if we waited to sell some of these assets." Mr. Poling’s father, Harold A. Poling, retired as the chief executive of Ford Motor Company in 1994. On Thursday, Cheryle Campbell answered the phone at Harold Poling’s house in Bloomfield, Mich., where she said she had worked as a housekeeper for 20 years. She said she was not surprised to hear that Douglas Poling had decided to give back his bonus. “You’d think, being in the kind of job he is, that he’d be one of those sharks,” she said. “But he’s not at all.” Douglas Poling has lived in the same house on a dead-end street in Fairfield for 11 years. The local papers say that he and his wife have given generously to a homeless shelter, to the Westport Country Playhouse and the Fairfield Country Day School, a boys’ prep school where tuition runs as high as $29,300 a year. But on Thursday, his house, like Mr. Haas’s, was being watched by private security guards. --ravi -- Support something better than yourself ;-) PeTA => http://peta.org/ Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/ If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/ ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
[Pen-l] Scorn Trails A.I.G. Executives, Even in Their Driveways - NYTimes.com
This one is a hilarious read: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/20/nyregion/20siege.html?partner=rss&emc=rss One A.I.G. executive, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he feared the consequences of identifying himself, said many workers felt demonized and betrayed. “It is as bad if not worse than McCarthyism,” he said. Everyone has sacrificed the employees of A.I.G.’s financial products division, he said, “for their own political agenda.” The public’s anger, he said, “is coming from bad facts as a result of someone else’s agenda — or just bad facts period.” Instead, he said, the so-called bonuses were in fact just payments that had been promised long ago to workers, including technical and administrative assistants. It's hip to be a "worker" again! ;-) --ravi -- Support something better than yourself ;-) PeTA => http://peta.org/ Greenpeace => http://greenpeace.org/ If you have nothing better to read: http://platosbeard.org/ ___ pen-l mailing list pen-l@lists.csuchico.edu https://lists.csuchico.edu/mailman/listinfo/pen-l
