Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Max Froumentin]

"Sina Ahmadian" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Yes, surprisingly the long division notation in the French is really 
> "bizarre"!

yes :-) But as long as it's used anywhere in the world, then MathML
ought to support it. There are more schoolkids learning mathematics
using a possibly bizzarre notation than there are researchers using
the "standard" one.

> When I was studying at high school here in France, I had never seen
> "tg" in
> the books or on the board. As Roozbeh said, it seems to be the old
> form used
> in the French educational system which is obsolete now.

So I guess I'm giving away my age saying I used tg when I was at
school...  It's true that I don't really know if schoolkids in France
still use the old long division notation (I suspect they do), or if
students still use tg for tangent.  But again, we don't want to
discard it if it's still in use somewhere.  IMO, it should indeed be
made obsolete, but then should we just say MathML is only supporting
the one world-wide mathematical notation? That seems to go against
internationalisation principles.

Max.

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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Behdad Esfahbod]

To answer the parts that other people didn't answer:

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Max Froumentin wrote:

> Thanks for the responses. Let me comment on each here:
>
> > It is a normal form of an equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a
> > Persian speaking country, mathematical notations are expressed the
> > same way as in English.
>
> Even in primary school? When kids learn to write "1+2+3" do they start
> straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of
> right to left text?

Yes, that's what I remember.

> Another example is the division sign. Sometimes you see:
> ½, or 1/2, or 1:2, or 1÷2, or 1
>   -
>   2

The last two are used in elementary school, but then in higher
levels they fall back to 1/2 and 1
 -
 2

> I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice
> relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I
> wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine
> and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local
> variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg')

I've only seen a Persian operator for 'lim', and again, that's
only used in highschool textbooks, not academia.

> So the stretched 'limit' wouldn't always be stretched?

I think a common practice is to use a fixedsize 'lim' which
happens to be wider than the usual way the word is written.  The
word for 'lim' in Persian consists of only two letters, and that
may not be wideenough to make it clear what's going on, so they
typically use a stretched version.

> Max.

--behdad
http://behdad.org/

"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
-- Dan Bern, "New American Language"

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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Sina Ahmadian]

Hi,

Just to add some info about the French system :


Among the common differences you see in primary
school mathematics are the long division notation. e.g. In English
it's written as shown in
. In french it's:

   14523 | 34
 92  |--
 243 | 427
   5 |



Yes, surprisingly the long division notation in the French is really 
"bizarre"!



I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice
relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I
wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine
and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local
variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg')


When I was studying at high school here in France, I had never seen "tg" in 
the books or on the board. As Roozbeh said, it seems to be the old form used 
in the French educational system which is obsolete now.


Sina


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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Roozbeh Pournader]

On Tue, 2005-10-18 at 18:33 +0330, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
> About "tg" vs "tan": for a while, "tg", "cotg", and "cosec" were used.
> Then the academic community switched to "tan", "cot", and "csc" but the
> high school trigonometry textbooks remained with "tg" and family. After
> a while, the high school textbooks also switched. Now the common form
> used in all levels of education is "tan" and family.

Ah, something else. When the "tg" and family were the default, all such
trigonometric operators were typeset in italic type, not roman.

roozbeh


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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Roozbeh Pournader]

About "tg" vs "tan": for a while, "tg", "cotg", and "cosec" were used.
Then the academic community switched to "tan", "cot", and "csc" but the
high school trigonometry textbooks remained with "tg" and family. After
a while, the high school textbooks also switched. Now the common form
used in all levels of education is "tan" and family.

About the stretched limit: High schools used that Persian stretched
limit (Heh, Dal) when I was in high school, but the official textbooks
now use the Latin "lim" (I just confirmed this with a high school
student who checked with his textbook). The academic community have
often used "lim".

Roozbeh


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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Elnaz Sarbar]

Hi,

On سه‌شنبه, 2005-10-18 at 11:42 +0100, Max Froumentin wrote:
> Thanks for the responses. Let me comment on each here:
> 
> > It is a normal form of an equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a
> > Persian speaking country, mathematical notations are expressed the
> > same way as in English.
> 
> Even in primary school? When kids learn to write "1+2+3" do they start
> straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of
> right to left text? 

That's right. Even in primary school.

> Among the common differences you see in primary
> school mathematics are the long division notation. e.g. In English
> it's written as shown in
> . In french it's:
> 
>14523 | 34
>  92  |--
>  243 | 427
>5 |
> 
We do that this way:

14523 | 34
136   |-
--| 427
  92  |
  68  |
--|
  243 |
  238 |
--|
 5|

> Another example is the division sign. Sometimes you see:
> ½, or 1/2, or 1:2, or 1÷2, or 1
>   -
>   2
> 

÷ is used as division sign.

> etc. These are differences between different variant of the "Western" 
> notation,
> and they require different rendering rules for MathML. That's what we're 
> trying
> to figure out as much as possible all the variants.
> 
> > I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal
> > form of an equation in Persian
> 
> I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice
> relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I
> wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine
> and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local
> variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg')
> 
I've seen both tan and tg in mathematic books. But I don't know which
one is official.

> > I think the "stretched" word "limit" is just a stylish way of writing
> > which compensates more space for the "x --> pi/10". However, "pi/10"
> > is a fraction, if I am not wrong, and should be written like the other
> > fraction "1/4".
> 
> So the stretched 'limit' wouldn't always be stretched?
> 
Not always but usually. Not stretched one (حد) isn't usually long enough
to write "x --> pi/10" or other thing under it.

Elnaz
> Max.
> 
> 
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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Max Froumentin]

Thanks for the responses. Let me comment on each here:

> It is a normal form of an equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a
> Persian speaking country, mathematical notations are expressed the
> same way as in English.

Even in primary school? When kids learn to write "1+2+3" do they start
straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of
right to left text? Among the common differences you see in primary
school mathematics are the long division notation. e.g. In English
it's written as shown in
. In french it's:

   14523 | 34
 92  |--
 243 | 427
   5 |

Another example is the division sign. Sometimes you see:
½, or 1/2, or 1:2, or 1÷2, or 1
  -
  2

etc. These are differences between different variant of the "Western" notation,
and they require different rendering rules for MathML. That's what we're trying
to figure out as much as possible all the variants.

> I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal
> form of an equation in Persian

I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice
relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I
wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine
and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local
variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg')

> I think the "stretched" word "limit" is just a stylish way of writing
> which compensates more space for the "x --> pi/10". However, "pi/10"
> is a fraction, if I am not wrong, and should be written like the other
> fraction "1/4".

So the stretched 'limit' wouldn't always be stretched?

Max.


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