subject:"Re\: \[GENERAL\] Code of Conduct\: Is it time\?"

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 3:21 PM, James Keener  wrote:

> This line has already been substantially changes. Can we keep discussion
> of the language of the WIP in the thread meant for it? This way people
> don't waste time discussing language which no longer exists.
>

I think the question though is relevant to a more general question of codes
of conduct.

Here is where I see the danger.

This is a global project.  It is going to involve people with wide
perspectives on controversial and sensitive issues.  It is not
inconceivable that we will include groups on the email lists who see the
mere presence of eachother as a personal attack.  Coming up with examples
would probably be inappropriate but PostgreSQL is widely used and so that
may happen.

In LedgerSMB we have had civilians on the project in countries that were
threatening to go to war with eachother.  But at least those weren't
culture war issues so we more or less just worked through the situation.

A second problem is that my experience is that folks who are going to push
people's buttons are going to be careful to do so in order to ensure the
community doesn't see it.  To be frank, bullies usually have a level of
political sophistication that their victims lack and I don't see how a CoC
fixes that.  (If it is just to say "yes we have one" then my experience is
also such that I worry about those people who worry about that.)

One of the nice things about the Ubuntu Code of Conduct is that it focuses
primarily on the positive.  It is long, perhaps overly verbose, but it does
focus on what the community wants rather than what the community wants to
avoid.

It is easy to say "don't do these things."  But it is perhaps better to say
"these are the values our community lives by.  Please respect them."

>
> Jim
>
> On January 12, 2016 9:17:55 AM EST, Neil Tiffin 
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  On Jan 12, 2016, at 7:50 AM, Vick Khera  wrote:
>>>
>>>  On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Steve Litt  
>>> wrote:
>>>
  All because somebody just *had* to personally insult someone else,
  repeatedly, and nobody thought that was a bad thing, and when the
  recipient finally objected, the objection was chalked up to him or her
  valuing his/her victimhood.

>>>
>>>  +1
>>>
>>>  I was thinking along the same lines when I saw JD's original list
>>>  containing that "victimhood" line. I think that one line pretty much
>>>  eviscerates the entire purpose of having the CoC.
>>>
>>>
>> I don’t remember the “victimhood”
>> line, but it is important to make sure people understand that the problem 
>> manifests itself both by being to sensitive by the complainer and not being 
>> sensitive enough by the group. I do believe that in any document it needs to 
>> be stated that everyone is expected to be tolerant of others.  A free 
>> society cannot exist without some level of tolerance.
>>
>> Neil
>>
>>
> --
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>

-- 
Best Wishes,
Chris Travers

Efficito:  Hosted Accounting and ERP.  Robust and Flexible.  No vendor
lock-in.
http://www.efficito.com/learn_more

Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 9:16 AM, Regina Obe <l...@pcorp.us> wrote:

> Chris,
>
>
>
> The first part up to (I is fine), but part II and below reads more like a
> Core Contributor riot act you force all the main contributor's to read
> before you bless them with water and give them keys to commit stuff to your
> code base.
>

I am not sold on the specifics of what is covered.  But it is worth noting
that responsibility can include a lot of other stuff too, not just keys for
committing.  Thing about side projects and the like.  That's why I included
it.   It could easily be replaced by something else (perhaps addressing
what you are discussing below).

>
>
> Like our committer guidelines --
> https://trac.osgeo.org/postgis/wiki/DevWikiComitGuidelines
>
>
>
> For a Coc – I think it should be light, but make it clear that we do not
> tolerate strangers coming into our group and demanding us to accept their
> code, cause we want to be welcoming and show we have at least 15% of code
> contributions from women.
>

One of the dangers of a CoC is that there are many potential issues which
may or may not become real problems.  I think if we try to be clear on all
of them, then we risk creating codes instead of a general expectation of
what we do expect.

So my question would be how do you turn this around and frame it as a
positive value and direction?

I assume respecting the commons is insufficient.  Maybe a brief note about
the fact that this is critical software and we have to maintain very high
standards of code?

>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Regina
>
>
>
> *From:* Chris Travers [mailto:chris.trav...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 12, 2016 3:05 AM
> *To:* Regina Obe <l...@pcorp.us>
> *Cc:* Buford Tannen <buf...@biffco.net>; Joshua D. Drake <
> j...@commandprompt.com>; Brian Dunavant <br...@omniti.com>; Scott Mead <
> sco...@openscg.com>; Adrian Klaver <adrian.kla...@aklaver.com>; Gavin
> Flower <gavinflo...@archidevsys.co.nz>; PostgreSQL General <
> pgsql-general@postgresql.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
>
>
>
> A couple thoughts rather late to the discussion from a more international
> perspective.
>
> I remember a lecture I saw by a comparative law professor (the lecture was
> about why many Danes are unhappy with the EU pressures on their tradition
> of law and the general lack of subsidiarity in the EU) who described the
> difference between the Danish and the American system as "Make love not
> codes."  The pun here is that "love" is the plural form of the word for law
> in Danish.  Scandinavian laws tend to be short and rely on human judgment
> by judges rather than precedent and complexity like the American system or
> the equivalents in the civil law/Continental systems.  Without bringing up
> those political issues, I think the approach to decentralization is a good
> one for many projects.
>
> I think this might give us a happy middle ground.  Something very basic,
> very brief which sets forth principles of the community but doesn't amount
> to real rule-making and respects the general decentralized nature of the
> project.
>
> We have a highly decentralized community and an approach needs to reflect
> that.  I think therefore it is important  to keep things brief and vague on
> details but specific in shared principles.
>
> I would also be concerned that someone who is overly worried about not
> having a code of conduct might be interested in lawyering about it.
> Another concern may be "is there a place for me in the project?" and I
> think that can be answered differently.
>
> So with these thoughts, how about something more like:
>
> I:  Be Respectful and Collaborative
>
> We are a global project and expect that people from a wide variety of
> backgrounds and viewpoints will work together.  Personal attacks are not
> appreciated, and the same goes for attacks on the basis of nationality,
> culture, or other factors of inter- and intra-cultural identity.
>
> At the same time, understand that people often cannot see across different
> perspectives and may unintentionally say things that cause offense.  It is
> also a matter of respect and collaboration not to make these into issues.
>
>
>
> II:  Be Responsible
>
> If you have taken on responsibility in a community project and are unable
> to continue, please step down gracefully and help facilitate others taking
> your place.  This includes being around to facilitate knowledge transfer
> and much more.
>
>
>
> III:  Respect the Commons
>
> We are all here to build an outstanding open source project or set of such
> projects.Act in a way which furthers

Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

A couple thoughts rather late to the discussion from a more international
perspective.

I remember a lecture I saw by a comparative law professor (the lecture was
about why many Danes are unhappy with the EU pressures on their tradition
of law and the general lack of subsidiarity in the EU) who described the
difference between the Danish and the American system as "Make love not
codes."  The pun here is that "love" is the plural form of the word for law
in Danish.  Scandinavian laws tend to be short and rely on human judgment
by judges rather than precedent and complexity like the American system or
the equivalents in the civil law/Continental systems.  Without bringing up
those political issues, I think the approach to decentralization is a good
one for many projects.

I think this might give us a happy middle ground.  Something very basic,
very brief which sets forth principles of the community but doesn't amount
to real rule-making and respects the general decentralized nature of the
project.

We have a highly decentralized community and an approach needs to reflect
that.  I think therefore it is important  to keep things brief and vague on
details but specific in shared principles.

I would also be concerned that someone who is overly worried about not
having a code of conduct might be interested in lawyering about it.
Another concern may be "is there a place for me in the project?" and I
think that can be answered differently.

So with these thoughts, how about something more like:

I:  Be Respectful and Collaborative

We are a global project and expect that people from a wide variety of
backgrounds and viewpoints will work together.  Personal attacks are not
appreciated, and the same goes for attacks on the basis of nationality,
culture, or other factors of inter- and intra-cultural identity.

At the same time, understand that people often cannot see across different
perspectives and may unintentionally say things that cause offense.  It is
also a matter of respect and collaboration not to make these into issues.

II:  Be Responsible

If you have taken on responsibility in a community project and are unable
to continue, please step down gracefully and help facilitate others taking
your place.  This includes being around to facilitate knowledge transfer
and much more.

III:  Respect the Commons

We are all here to build an outstanding open source project or set of such
projects.Act in a way which furthers the commons generally, as a
custodian of what we have inherited from the efforts of others, and
borrowed from the future.

In the event of serious problems, the core committee or those they
designate, or the maintainers of other affiliated projects (in their
domains) may be called upon to mediate or even address issues (particularly
in the case of serious and repeated problems).  However, the community is
expected to operate in a way which prevents this from becoming necessary by
adhering to the principles above even in the process of addressing
disputes..

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Regina Obe  wrote:

>
> Regina Obe wrote:
> >
> > If we do write a CoC, can we give it a different acronym.
>
> > Notwithstanding the most regrettable childhood trauma, this request is
> exactly the kind of ridiculousness that the Political Correctness nonsense
> associated with CoCs that we should be worried about in the aftermath of
> proposed adoption.
>
> > Complaining that the acronym "CoC" is anything remotely like the thing
> the work "cock" means is, well, cockamamie
>
> > It's like someone becoming upset over the work "niggardly" as a racist
> epithet. In fact that word and the one you are thinking of are completely
> unrelated: entirely different etymology. Nothing in common except, on the
> one hand, as you imagine the acronym might be pronounced, and on the other
> because there are six similar letters.
>
> Exactly.  That's why I added that section:
>
>
> ---
>
> USE OF TRIGGER TERMS
>
> We have long standing terms like Master/Slave that may trigger some past
> trauma for some people.
> While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the effort
> of changing long understood terminology and the psychological trauma
> such changes would cause for the large majority of people who are not as
> sensitive to the usage.
> As such we entertain change requests for naming of new features more than
> we do of renaming old features.
>
> -
>
> First of all you have no proof whether I was raped or not, so you don't
> know if I'm just playing the "Poor woman was raped, give her a break" card
> or if my sad luck story is genuine.
> In the end it's irrelevant, because as Josh apologetically explained to
> me  -

Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-12 Thread Regina Obe

Chris,

The first part up to (I is fine), but part II and below reads more like a Core 
Contributor riot act you force all the main contributor's to read before you 
bless them with water and give them keys to commit stuff to your code base.

Like our committer guidelines -- 
https://trac.osgeo.org/postgis/wiki/DevWikiComitGuidelines

For a Coc – I think it should be light, but make it clear that we do not 
tolerate strangers coming into our group and demanding us to accept their code, 
cause we want to be welcoming and show we have at least 15% of code 
contributions from women.

Thanks,

Regina

From: Chris Travers [mailto:chris.trav...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 3:05 AM
To: Regina Obe <l...@pcorp.us>
Cc: Buford Tannen <buf...@biffco.net>; Joshua D. Drake 
<j...@commandprompt.com>; Brian Dunavant <br...@omniti.com>; Scott Mead 
<sco...@openscg.com>; Adrian Klaver <adrian.kla...@aklaver.com>; Gavin Flower 
<gavinflo...@archidevsys.co.nz>; PostgreSQL General 
<pgsql-general@postgresql.org>
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

A couple thoughts rather late to the discussion from a more international 
perspective.

I remember a lecture I saw by a comparative law professor (the lecture was 
about why many Danes are unhappy with the EU pressures on their tradition of 
law and the general lack of subsidiarity in the EU) who described the 
difference between the Danish and the American system as "Make love not codes." 
 The pun here is that "love" is the plural form of the word for law in Danish.  
Scandinavian laws tend to be short and rely on human judgment by judges rather 
than precedent and complexity like the American system or the equivalents in 
the civil law/Continental systems.  Without bringing up those political issues, 
I think the approach to decentralization is a good one for many projects.

I think this might give us a happy middle ground.  Something very basic, very 
brief which sets forth principles of the community but doesn't amount to real 
rule-making and respects the general decentralized nature of the project.

We have a highly decentralized community and an approach needs to reflect that. 
 I think therefore it is important  to keep things brief and vague on details 
but specific in shared principles.

I would also be concerned that someone who is overly worried about not having a 
code of conduct might be interested in lawyering about it.  Another concern may 
be "is there a place for me in the project?" and I think that can be answered 
differently.

So with these thoughts, how about something more like:

I:  Be Respectful and Collaborative

We are a global project and expect that people from a wide variety of 
backgrounds and viewpoints will work together.  Personal attacks are not 
appreciated, and the same goes for attacks on the basis of nationality, 
culture, or other factors of inter- and intra-cultural identity.

At the same time, understand that people often cannot see across different 
perspectives and may unintentionally say things that cause offense.  It is also 
a matter of respect and collaboration not to make these into issues.

II:  Be Responsible

If you have taken on responsibility in a community project and are unable to 
continue, please step down gracefully and help facilitate others taking your 
place.  This includes being around to facilitate knowledge transfer and much 
more.

III:  Respect the Commons

We are all here to build an outstanding open source project or set of such 
projects.Act in a way which furthers the commons generally, as a custodian 
of what we have inherited from the efforts of others, and borrowed from the 
future. 

In the event of serious problems, the core committee or those they designate, 
or the maintainers of other affiliated projects (in their domains) may be 
called upon to mediate or even address issues (particularly in the case of 
serious and repeated problems).  However, the community is expected to operate 
in a way which prevents this from becoming necessary by adhering to the 
principles above even in the process of addressing disputes..

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 11:13 PM, Regina Obe <l...@pcorp.us 
<mailto:l...@pcorp.us> > wrote:

Regina Obe wrote:
>
> If we do write a CoC, can we give it a different acronym.

> Notwithstanding the most regrettable childhood trauma, this request is 
> exactly the kind of ridiculousness that the Political Correctness nonsense 
> associated with CoCs that we should be worried about in the aftermath of 
> proposed adoption.

> Complaining that the acronym "CoC" is anything remotely like the thing the 
> work "cock" means is, well, cockamamie

> It's like someone becoming upset over the work "niggardly" as a racist 
> epithet. In fact that word and the one you are thinking of a

Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

On Jan 12, 2016 9:48 AM, "Regina Obe"  wrote:
>>
>> Chris,
>>
>> >> For a Coc – I think it should be light, but make it clear that we do
not tolerate strangers coming into our group and demanding us to accept
their code, cause we want to be welcoming and show we have at least 15% of
code contributions from women.
>
>
>
> > One of the dangers of a CoC is that there are many potential issues
which may or may not become real problems.  I think if we try to be clear
on all of them, then we risk creating codes instead of a general
expectation of what we do expect.
>
> > So my question would be how do you turn this around and frame it as a
positive value and direction?
>
>
>
> > I assume respecting the commons is insufficient.  Maybe a brief note
about the fact that this is critical software and we have to maintain very
high standards of code?
>>
>>  Well we could just explain what we already do but be terse about it.
>>
>> We accept contributions from everybody.  Because our code is used in
critical software and of a complex nature, we generally prefer
contributions from members familiar with our code base, especially in core
areas.

>>
>> This generally means frequent contributors have a more likely chance of
having their code accepted or accepted faster than newcomers.
>>
>> A member of our community will inspect your contribution and if it is
unacceptable in its current state, we will make suggestions for improvement.
>>
>> In some cases, your contribution may not fit into our current
code/documentation base.  In these cases, we will reject it and explain why
it cannot be used.

I like that idea.
>>
>>
>>
>> ---

>>
>> That feels long and wordy I know, but not sure how to make it shorter.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Regina

Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-12 Thread Alban Hertroys

On 12 January 2016 at 09:25, Chris Travers  wrote:

> One of the dangers of a CoC is that there are many potential issues which
> may or may not become real problems.  I think if we try to be clear on all
> of them, then we risk creating codes instead of a general expectation of
> what we do expect.

Another consideration.

Last night I was thinking this issue over and then remembered that
normally very reasonable persons (which I count myself among) can
react quite poisonous when they are tired or stressed and people start
pushing their buttons. Those people probably would not be violating
any CoC rules, but can cause someone else to do so.

Moreover, some people are exceptionally good at pushing all the wrong
buttons, whether doing that willingly (out of malice) or not.
I'm a bit concerned that a CoC could give the malicious among those
the ammunition they need to push buttons of their victims. Now of
course, they could do that just as well without a CoC and I don't
recall any instances of this problem on this list.

To add to that, non-native speakers sometimes make mistakes that set
it off. I remember an embarrassing case where I thought the word
"gross" came from the German "Grosshaft", which means quite the
opposite (great, fabulous), and responded to a new idea on a list with
a heartily meant "Gross!". And then you suddenly get angry mails from
all over the place without understanding how that happened. Oops.

Where I stand? I do not know whether a CoC for PG is a good idea or
not, I can't decide. Anyway, in my case it's nothing more than an
opinion anyway - my contributions are pretty much limited to offering
help on this ML.

-- 
If you can't see the forest for the trees,
Cut the trees and you'll see there is no forest.

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-12 Thread Regina Obe

Chris, 

>> For a Coc – I think it should be light, but make it clear that we do not 
>> tolerate strangers coming into our group and demanding us to accept their 
>> code, cause we want to be welcoming and show we have at least 15% of code 
>> contributions from women.

 

> One of the dangers of a CoC is that there are many potential issues which may 
> or may not become real problems.  I think if we try to be clear on all of 
> them, then we risk creating codes instead of a general expectation of what we 
> do expect.

> So my question would be how do you turn this around and frame it as a 
> positive value and direction?  

 

> I assume respecting the commons is insufficient.  Maybe a brief note about 
> the fact that this is critical software and we have to maintain very high 
> standards of code? 

 Well we could just explain what we already do but be terse about it.

We accept contributions from everybody.  Because our code is used in critical 
software and of a complex nature, we generally prefer contributions from 
members familiar with our code base, especially in core areas.

This generally means frequent contributors have a more likely chance of having 
their code accepted or accepted faster than newcomers.

A member of our community will inspect your contribution and if it is 
unacceptable in its current state, we will make suggestions for improvement.

In some cases, your contribution may not fit into our current 
code/documentation base.  In these cases, we will reject it and explain why it 
cannot be used.

 

--- 


That feels long and wordy I know, but not sure how to make it shorter.

Thanks,

Regina

Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-12 Thread Vick Khera

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Steve Litt  wrote:
> All because somebody just *had* to personally insult someone else,
> repeatedly, and nobody thought that was a bad thing, and when the
> recipient finally objected, the objection was chalked up to him or her
> valuing his/her victimhood.

+1

I was thinking along the same lines when I saw JD's original list
containing that "victimhood" line. I think that one line pretty much
eviscerates the entire purpose of having the CoC.


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-12 Thread Neil Tiffin

> On Jan 12, 2016, at 7:50 AM, Vick Khera  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Steve Litt  wrote:
>> All because somebody just *had* to personally insult someone else,
>> repeatedly, and nobody thought that was a bad thing, and when the
>> recipient finally objected, the objection was chalked up to him or her
>> valuing his/her victimhood.
> 
> +1
> 
> I was thinking along the same lines when I saw JD's original list
> containing that "victimhood" line. I think that one line pretty much
> eviscerates the entire purpose of having the CoC.
> 

I don’t remember the “victimhood” line, but it is important to make sure people 
understand that the problem manifests itself both by being to sensitive by the 
complainer and not being sensitive enough by the group. I do believe that in 
any document it needs to be stated that everyone is expected to be tolerant of 
others.  A free society cannot exist without some level of tolerance.

Neil 

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-12 Thread Regina Obe

> On 12 January 2016 at 09:25, Chris Travers  wrote:

>> One of the dangers of a CoC is that there are many potential issues 
>> which may or may not become real problems.  I think if we try to be 
>> clear on all of them, then we risk creating codes instead of a general 
>> expectation of what we do expect.

> Another consideration.

> Last night I was thinking this issue over and then remembered that normally 
> very reasonable persons (which I count myself among) can react quite 
> poisonous when they are tired or stressed and people start pushing their 
> buttons. 
> Those people probably would not be violating any CoC rules, but can cause 
> someone else to do so.
I should add you can be very hurtful without meaning to and without violating 
Coc rules.  I'm sure Josh pushing his agenda was not intentional.  
But I really felt slighted by it.

I think we are just going to have to accept that we are going to accidentally 
push each others buttons and that's okay and acceptable.  If you don't know 
someone it's even easier to push their buttons.

> Moreover, some people are exceptionally good at pushing all the wrong 
> buttons, whether doing that willingly (out of malice) or not.
> I'm a bit concerned that a CoC could give the malicious among those the 
> ammunition they need to push buttons of their victims. Now of course, they 
> could do that just as well without a CoC and I don't recall any instances of 
> this problem on this list.

Some  people - study their victims carefully and figure out where their buttons 
are so they can push them and everyone can laugh.  Considerate people study 
people in the community, figure out where their buttons are and try to avoid 
pushing them.
It's more likely a malicious person is going to be someone who doesn't 
contribute much to the project.  Thus my need to give contributors preferential 
treatment in ambiguous disputes.

> To add to that, non-native speakers sometimes make mistakes that set it off. 
> I remember an embarrassing case where I thought the word "gross" came from 
> the German "Grosshaft", 
> which means quite the opposite (great, fabulous), and responded to a new idea 
> on a list with a heartily meant "Gross!". And then you suddenly get angry 
> mails from all over the place without understanding how that happened. Oops.

It's not just non-native speakers, it's also American.  I'm from New York and 
we tend to be very blunt and make jokes about everything. I'm half Nigerian and 
Nigerian's have more than their share of people with a sick sense of humor.
Worse, my mother was a Medical Examiner (someone who does autopsies on murder 
victims) and so her humor was very death centered and I thus had this very sick 
humor that offended everyone I came across except other children 
Of medical examiners.  Those kids would make jokes when they broke their arm - 
"Go away dad, I want someone who works on living people.  I'm not dead yet."
I won't even go into the jokes Medical Examiners tell to each other as I know 
few of you could see the humor in it.

> Where I stand? I do not know whether a CoC for PG is a good idea or not, I 
> can't decide. Anyway, in my case it's nothing more than an opinion anyway - 
> my contributions are pretty much limited to offering help on this ML.
The only reason I think we need a Coc is if we are concerned that

a) Some people won't feel welcome if they don't see one
b) Malicious people will spread rumors about our project for not having one , 
but if we have one, it has to protect us from them working within the rules, 
but pushing everyone's buttons.

Thanks,
Regina

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-12 Thread James Keener

This line has already been substantially changes. Can we keep discussion of the 
language of the WIP in the thread meant for it? This way people don't waste 
time discussing language which no longer exists.

Jim

On January 12, 2016 9:17:55 AM EST, Neil Tiffin  wrote:
>
>> On Jan 12, 2016, at 7:50 AM, Vick Khera  wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Steve Litt
> wrote:
>>> All because somebody just *had* to personally insult someone else,
>>> repeatedly, and nobody thought that was a bad thing, and when the
>>> recipient finally objected, the objection was chalked up to him or
>her
>>> valuing his/her victimhood.
>> 
>> +1
>> 
>> I was thinking along the same lines when I saw JD's original list
>> containing that "victimhood" line. I think that one line pretty much
>> eviscerates the entire purpose of having the CoC.
>> 
>
>I don’t remember the “victimhood” line, but it is important to make
>sure people understand that the problem manifests itself both by being
>to sensitive by the complainer and not being sensitive enough by the
>group. I do believe that in any document it needs to be stated that
>everyone is expected to be tolerant of others.  A free society cannot
>exist without some level of tolerance.
>
>Neil 
>
>-- 
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-12 Thread Achilleas Mantzios

On 05/01/2016 18:47, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

I had a hard time writing this email. I think Code of Conducts are non-essential, a waste of respectful people's time and frankly if you are going to be a jerk, our community will call you out on
it. Unfortunately a lot of people don't agree with that. I have over the course of the last year seen more and more potential users very explicitly say, "I will not contribute to a project or attend
a conference that does not have a CoC".

Some of us may be saying, "Well we don't want those people". I can't argue with some facts though. Ubuntu has had a CoC[1] since the beginning of the project and they grew exceedingly quick. Having
walls in the hallway of interaction isn't always a bad thing.

In reflection, the only thing a CoC does is put in writing what behaviour we as
a project already require, so why not document it and use it as a tool to
encourage more contribution to our project?

Sincerely,

1. http://www.ubuntu.com/about/about-ubuntu/conduct

Well, while I don't have an opinion, since after 16+ years I don't think I am
going anywhere away from PostgreSQL, let me share my initial feelings about the
community.
It was back in 2003, having spent already 3 years with the database and just starting to implement our own hierarchical solution based on postgresql arrays and intarray contrib module, and heavily
hack DBMirror, when someone (high ranking) on -sql called me "newbie".
My immediate reaction was to start looking for alternatives. Obviously I failed (no OS DB was this good). Other times I had my favorite OS (FreeBSD) being bashed by pgsql ppl, but held on, I am still
here, and ppl at pgsql conferences now talk about a company who has deployed over 100 pgsql installations in the seven seas communicating over satellite by a hacked version of uucp and replicated via
a heavily hacked version of DBmirror.

So while I think that a CoC might help beginners stay, I don't think that this
is a major part, neither do I think that the ppl themselves will easily conform.

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German, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-12 Thread Karsten Hilbert

> To add to that, non-native speakers sometimes make mistakes that set
> it off. I remember an embarrassing case where I thought the word
> "gross" came from the German "Grosshaft", which means quite the
> opposite (great, fabulous), and responded to a new idea on a list with
> a heartily meant "Gross!".

Indeed, that German word would be "großartig!" (often spelled "grossartig"
especially in environments without easy access to the German "ß".

Responding "Gross!" would amount to saying "That's a great idea in that
it is all-encompassing and using a generic concept to nicely solve a
specific (class of) problem(s) and then some.". Entirely reasonable (if
a bit unusually worded) in German :-)

Karsten Hilbert


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-12 Thread John R Pierce


On 1/12/2016 5:42 AM, Regina Obe wrote:

a) Some people won't feel welcome if they don't see one
b) Malicious people will spread rumors about our project for not having one , 
but if we have one, it has to protect us from them working within the rules, 
but pushing everyone's buttons.


c) and if we DO have one, malicious people will try and either work 
around perceived cracks in said CoC, or use the CoC against people in 
malicious ways, just because they can.   Trolls be Trolls



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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

Kevin Grittner  writes:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Tom Lane  wrote:
>> I thought we were already at that point; see Regina Obe's posts.

> Oh, are you referring to this:?
> http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/001201d14c96$fc26ed70$f474c850$@pcorp.us
> For some reason that shows up as a quote of a quote in my gmail, so
> I skipped over it without noticing it.  Apologies.

> Even after finding it, formatting is mangled, and I see an
> amendment was just posted.  Can we get this into a more readable
> format somehow, where changes can be reflected without sequentially
> scanning the thread?

Also, since JD already took Kevin's advice to start a new thread,
Regina please post your latest into that thread not this one.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)

2016-01-11 Thread FarjadFarid(ChkNet)


Thanks Joshua for creating this list. Great starting point and hopefully points 
to focus on to conclude this thread.  

Here are my humble comments on them. 

I think point two is already covered by respecting other people's opinion. At 
times specially over email ,where we don't see others reactions , people can 
unintentionally be more confrontational than normal. Therefore it is not just 
the recipient. 

Perhaps Point 3 should read "free from".

Thanks again Joshua. 

Best Regards


Farjad 


-Original Message-
From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:j...@commandprompt.com] 
Sent: 11 January 2016 22:00
To: FarjadFarid(ChkNet); 'Kevin Grittner'; 'Regina Obe'
Cc: 'Tom Lane'; 'Karsten Hilbert'; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)

Hello,

Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project:

PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a 
safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is 
willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.

2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a 
recipient response and usually the offended individual is more interested in 
being a victim than moving forward.

3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free 
comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical 
appearance, body size or race.

4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC 
etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the CoC 
and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.

5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your 
private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.

6. The CoC is not about Social Justice.


Sincerely,

JD


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Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control your 
own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.



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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 02:00:22PM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
> comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical
> appearance, body size or race.

... for of _off-topic_ comments related to ...

Since I am using PostgreSQL for storing Electronic Medical
Record data I fear I will need to be able to discuss schema
layout related to gender, sexual orientation, disability,
physical appearance, body size, and race.

Karsten Hilbert
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?


Steve,

Please see the new thread WIP: CoC V2

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)


Hello,

Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project:

PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing 
a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person 
who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and 
collaborative way.


2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is 
purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more 
interested in being a victim than moving forward.


3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free 
comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical 
appearance, body size or race.


4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, 
IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation 
of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.


5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your 
private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.


6. The CoC is not about Social Justice.


Sincerely,

JD


--
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PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't
control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Kevin Grittner

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:42 PM, FarjadFarid(ChkNet)
 wrote:

Five days (and I don't know how many posts) ago, there was this:

http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/20160106184818.gt21...@crankycanuck.ca

Which said in part:

> The other thing I note is that the IETF got
> most of these documents because someone thought the problem was
> important enough to write a draft proposal first.  As I said in a
> recent IETF plenary, the organization works partly because at the IETF
> you don't need anyone's permission to try something; you don't even
> need forgiveness.  The worst that can happen is that people reject the
> proposal.  It always seemed to me that the Postgres project worked in
> a similar way, so I'd encourage those who think there is a problem to
> be solved to make a scratch proposal and see whether it flies.  It's
> always easier to discuss a concrete proposal than to try to figure out
> whether something is a good idea in the abstract.

I'm going to give this a belated +1, and ignore any further posts on
this thread.

If someone wants to take the step of posting a concrete proposal,
please start a new thread with a different subject line.

-- 
Kevin Grittner
EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

"Regina Obe"  writes:
> How would you feel about the original thread that started this.
> https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941
> I would dismiss her as a troll and kindly say, don't tell us who we can have
> and who we can't.

Hm ... that thread makes me uncomfortable, because I can see both points
of view.  I really don't care for the idea that "you should throw this
longtime contributor off your project because he espoused some not-
politically-correct views in an unrelated forum".  On the other hand,
the argument that the person's actions might drive away potential
community members isn't without merit.

Also, does it really matter whether the complaint comes from someone
who's in the community already, or not?  It's going to be equally
messy either way.  Unless you choose to ignore the complaint simply
because a non-community-member made it, which seems to me to be a
bad idea.  A lot of the argument for having a CoC seems to be to help
draw new people in, and that approach won't do that.

This might be in the category of "hard cases make bad law".  Probably
an ideal outcome for the situation described there would have been for
the contributor to recognize that his actions didn't reflect well on
the community, and to *voluntarily* stop doing that.  Or at least,
stop posting divisive views from an account explicitly claiming a
close relationship to the opal community.  But should the community
have tried to force him to stop?  Dunno, but I doubt it would have
ended well if they had.

Moving on from the substance of the complaint, neither side of that
argument gets any points from me for being civil about how they went
about discussing it.  The complainant seems to have started out with
a public call for removal from the project, which is about as good
a way as I can think of for ensuring that the discussion will not
be pleasant or productive.  (Maybe there were some private contacts
beforehand, but I don't see any evidence of that; not that I had the
patience to read the entire thread.)   And the responses were not on
any higher level; which is unsurprising maybe, but they certainly did
nothing to defuse the situation.

In my admittedly-limited experience with dealing with such problems,
it's a lot easier to achieve positive results if you can discuss
issues in private, before people's positions harden.

In short, I wouldn't characterize that complainant as "a troll" for
the substance of her complaint, but maybe so for the way in which
she went about making it.  If we're to have a CoC, I'd really like
it (and any associated enforcement mechanism) to be designed to
discourage this sort of let's-begin-with-public-attacks approach to
problem resolution.  How we get to that exactly, I don't know.

regards, tom lane

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)


On 01/11/2016 02:08 PM, Adrian Klaver wrote:

On 01/11/2016 02:00 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project:

PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing
a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person
who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and
collaborative way.

2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is
purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more
interested in being a victim than moving forward.

3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical
appearance, body size or race.


Well that renders this thread:

http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/4579835f.11355.1de...@rod.iol.ie

out of bounds and I thought it was quite productive.


No it doesn't. That thread was clearly a technical question based on a 
specific gender problem domain. That is perfectly within bounds.


That said there is an obvious typo in #3:

3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free 
of comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical

appearance, body size or race.

We could add the word inappropriate (I thought negative but that doesn't 
work either because positive comments can be just as bad).


JD

P.S. please use new thread WIP: CoC

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)

2016-01-11 Thread James Keener

> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability,
physical appearance,
body size or race.

why not

> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
of ad hominem. (Tip: Ask your self "Would I make this same comment if my
best friend or parent stated what I was replying to" if you're unsure.)

The tip being optional, of course :-p  I don't see why we need to limit
comments like in the original: that's not the point! The point is that
people shouldn't be attacked!


Moreover,

> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is
purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more
interested in being a victim than moving forward.

is very harsh.  It definitely needs to be rephrased or built on. What is
the point of this, by the way? If we state that personal attacks are
unbecoming of a member of this group, then does it matter if I'm offended
when someone says we should have a table that lacks 1-M 1-F constraints for
marriage? It's not an attack and trying to clarify the differences between
being offended because of an attack on me or just in general might make
things too awkward to write.

Jim

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 5:15 PM, FarjadFarid(ChkNet) <
farjad.fa...@checknetworks.com> wrote:

>
> Thanks Joshua for creating this list. Great starting point and hopefully
> points to focus on to conclude this thread.
>
> Here are my humble comments on them.
>
> I think point two is already covered by respecting other people's opinion.
> At times specially over email ,where we don't see others reactions , people
> can unintentionally be more confrontational than normal. Therefore it is
> not just the recipient.
>
> Perhaps Point 3 should read "free from".
>
> Thanks again Joshua.
>
> Best Regards
>
>
> Farjad
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:j...@commandprompt.com]
> Sent: 11 January 2016 22:00
> To: FarjadFarid(ChkNet); 'Kevin Grittner'; 'Regina Obe'
> Cc: 'Tom Lane'; 'Karsten Hilbert'; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)
>
> Hello,
>
> Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project:
>
> PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):
>
> 1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing a
> safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person who is
> willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and collaborative
> way.
>
> 2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is
> purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more
> interested in being a victim than moving forward.
>
> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
> comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical
> appearance, body size or race.
>
> 4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists, IRC
> etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation of the
> CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.
>
> 5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your
> private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.
>
> 6. The CoC is not about Social Justice.
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> JD
>
>
> --
> Command Prompt, Inc. - http://www.commandprompt.com/  503-667-4564
> PostgreSQL Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
> Announcing "I'm offended" is basically telling the world you can't control
> your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.
>
>
>
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>

Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)

2016-01-11 Thread Alvaro Herrera

Adrian Klaver wrote:
> On 01/11/2016 02:00 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> >3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
> >comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical
> >appearance, body size or race.
> 
> Well that renders this thread:
> 
> http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/4579835f.11355.1de...@rod.iol.ie
> 
> out of bounds and I thought it was quite productive.

How about this one
https://www.postgresql.org/message-id/20150825203743.2090.73356%40wrigleys.postgresql.org

-- 
Álvaro Herrerahttp://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Remote DBA, Training & Services


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)

2016-01-11 Thread Gavin Flower


On 12/01/16 11:21, Karsten Hilbert wrote:

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 02:00:22PM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote:


3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical
appearance, body size or race.

... for of _off-topic_ comments related to ...

Since I am using PostgreSQL for storing Electronic Medical
Record data I fear I will need to be able to discuss schema
layout related to gender, sexual orientation, disability,
physical appearance, body size, and race.

Karsten Hilbert
And what about people who want to construct a database to help survivors 
of sexual abuse, and/or doing research into sexual abuse?




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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)

2016-01-11 Thread FarjadFarid(ChkNet)

Dear all, 

Please let's not be pedantic  and expect absolute legalistic perfection in
the wordings that has been put forward. 

No doubt we all understand the spirit and the purpose of the wording. Which
is when we are consulting in the community we 
are not to  here to discuss other people's gender, sexuality etc. 

Joshua can I put forward that two further points should be considered for
possible inclusion. 

One is prejudices towards one's own religious persuasion and secondly age
related should not be part of discussions or reasoning.  

We are effectively here to focus on helping each other and improving the
overall functioning of postgresql etc in a very practical manner. 

Please let's move on. 

Best Regards

-Original Message-
From: pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Karsten Hilbert
Sent: 11 January 2016 22:21
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 02:00:22PM -0800, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

> 3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is 
> free comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, 
> physical appearance, body size or race.

... for of _off-topic_ comments related to ...

Since I am using PostgreSQL for storing Electronic Medical Record data I
fear I will need to be able to discuss schema layout related to gender,
sexual orientation, disability, physical appearance, body size, and race.

Karsten Hilbert
--
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

Kevin Grittner  writes:
> I'm going to give this a belated +1, and ignore any further posts on
> this thread.
> If someone wants to take the step of posting a concrete proposal,
> please start a new thread with a different subject line.

I thought we were already at that point; see Regina Obe's posts.

regards, tom lane


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Kevin Grittner

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:10 PM, Tom Lane  wrote:
> Kevin Grittner  writes:

>> If someone wants to take the step of posting a concrete proposal,
>> please start a new thread with a different subject line.
>
> I thought we were already at that point; see Regina Obe's posts.

Oh, are you referring to this:?

http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/001201d14c96$fc26ed70$f474c850$@pcorp.us

For some reason that shows up as a quote of a quote in my gmail, so
I skipped over it without noticing it.  Apologies.

Even after finding it, formatting is mangled, and I see an
amendment was just posted.  Can we get this into a more readable
format somehow, where changes can be reflected without sequentially
scanning the thread?

--
Kevin Grittner
EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Steve Litt

On Mon, 11 Jan 2016 11:00:23 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake"  wrote:

> A CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is
> purely a recipients response and usually because the recipient is
> more interested in being a victim than moving forward.

I've seen text like the preceding in over 10 messages in this thread. I
could be interpreting them wrong, but they seem to be saying the
offended recipient is more interested in being a victim than moving
forward, or with some of the responses, the recipient is being a cry
baby.

In my opinion, this is a much easier position to take when it's the
other person regularly spoken of as "misinformed", "ignorant",
"neckbeard", or whatever. Much harder position when your technical
posts are regularly greeted by such personal insults, and few folks
rise to your defense.

Well, whatever, survival of the fittest. 90% of the time, the party
being personally insulted silently leaves, and is not missed. But
sometimes the community has something to lose. Let me tell you a story.

=
=
12 years ago, one guy in my LUG continually replied to me in
what I think most reasonable people would call an insulting
manner. Some of his posts called me "ignorant", "unprofessional", lack
of "checking my work", "committing libel", "lies and hypocracy", and
"reinventing history". 

I called for the LUG's Executive Committee to reign in his rhetoric,
explaining that it had gotten to such a point that I could no longer
bring friends, or possible business associates into the LUG because
they would be hearing a constant barrage of anti-Litt rhetoric, and
some of it might stick. The Exec Committee told me I was being too
sensitive and I should just let it slide.

So I got a new domain name, started a new LUG, drew membership both
from the old LUG and from the greater area. Immediately those same
people who said I was being too sensitive begged me to cancel the new
LUG and they'd institute anti-personal-insult rules.

But it was too late: I'd already done it. Over the next several years,
the new LUG grew and still meets every month, maintaining an active
mailing list and IRC channel. Meanwhile, the old LUG lost membership,
lost their nonprofit corporate status, lost their mailing list, lost
their domain name, and their remnants hold an "installfest" once a
month in a venue with no Internet (it's BYOI).
=
=

Most of the time, chalking things up to "recipient is more interested
in being a victim" does the community no harm. But every once in a
while, the costs are considerable.

All because somebody just *had* to personally insult someone else,
repeatedly, and nobody thought that was a bad thing, and when the
recipient finally objected, the objection was chalked up to him or her
valuing his/her victimhood.

About a CoC, here's what I want to know:

What *possible* value to a free software community could come of a
sentence structured like the following:

"You "

What possible harm would it do to ban such sentences? What features do
such sentences introduce into the software? Why is it difficult to
discuss features instead of people on the mailing list? How many
potential contributors have silently left after seeing personal insults
to themselves or others?

My opinion: Whether you call it CoC or mailing list rules or anything
else, some degree of it is needed, because the community allowing a
wild west of personal insults fails to achieve its potential at best,
and disintegrates at worst.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
http://www.troubleshooters.com/28

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

Kevin Grittner  writes:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Regina Obe  wrote:
>> How would you feel about the original thread that started this.
>> https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

> I'm not interested in opal, and don't have time to read a thread
> with (when I looked) 374 messages, but if the gist of it is that
> they have a code of conduct that attempts to control the speech or
> actions of contributors outside of the venue of the lists or events
> of the project, count me as -1, regardless of how offensive I might
> find said speech or actions.

FWIW, I did read some of that thread, and the point that seemed to me
to possibly bring that situation within reach of a CoC was that the
contributor was posting offensive-to-some views from an account that
explicitly identified him as a core opal contributor.  As such, it
wasn't totally unreasonable to see him as representing the project
in those statements.

(Note: I have not verified the facts of the matter, but this is what
was alleged in the thread.)

regards, tom lane

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)


ALL:

Please move comments to the new thread: WIP: CoC


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control your own emotions, so everyone else should do it for you.


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?


On 01/11/2016 01:36 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote:

Kevin Grittner wrote:

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Regina Obe  wrote:


How would you feel about the original thread that started this.

https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941


I'm not interested in opal, and don't have time to read a thread
with (when I looked) 374 messages, but if the gist of it is that
they have a code of conduct that attempts to control the speech or
actions of contributors outside of the venue of the lists or events
of the project, count me as -1, regardless of how offensive I might
find said speech or actions.


I didn't look at this one either, but I looked at the "contributor
covenant" Regina linked to earlier (as an example of what not to do) and
was shocked to see that any random outsider can *demand* a project admin
to take action on harassment accusations, or have *the admin* be removed
from the project.  I found that totally backwards and I'd certainly be
against anything that contains such language.


You would never get me on board with that either. To iterate my thoughts 
around a CoC are exactly this:


""" A CoC is about providing a safe, respectful, productive, and 
collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a 
safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.


A CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a 
recipients response and usually because the recipient is more interested 
in being a victim than moving forward. """







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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

Regina Obe wrote:
>
> If we do write a CoC, can we give it a different acronym.

> Notwithstanding the most regrettable childhood trauma, this request is 
> exactly the kind of ridiculousness that the Political Correctness nonsense 
> associated with CoCs that we should be worried about in the aftermath of 
> proposed adoption.

> Complaining that the acronym "CoC" is anything remotely like the thing the 
> work "cock" means is, well, cockamamie

> It's like someone becoming upset over the work "niggardly" as a racist 
> epithet. In fact that word and the one you are thinking of are completely 
> unrelated: entirely different etymology. Nothing in common except, on the one 
> hand, as you imagine the acronym might be pronounced, and on the other 
> because there are six similar letters.

Exactly.  That's why I added that section:

---

USE OF TRIGGER TERMS

We have long standing terms like Master/Slave that may trigger some past trauma 
for some people.
While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the effort of 
changing long understood terminology and the psychological trauma 
such changes would cause for the large majority of people who are not as 
sensitive to the usage. 
As such we entertain change requests for naming of new features more than we do 
of renaming old features.
-

First of all you have no proof whether I was raped or not, so you don't know if 
I'm just playing the "Poor woman was raped, give her a break" card or if my sad 
luck story is genuine.
In the end it's irrelevant, because as Josh apologetically explained to me  - 
Coc is standard in our vernacular so would cause more damage to others if we 
change it.  

I have to learn to cope with my suffering when someone says Coc and it's not 
your problem that I was raped and I have traumatic memories everytime
I hear someone say  "We have a Coc. I think that should make you feel safer."

Josh did the right thing.  If we had this Coc -- Josh could just point at this 
section and say

"I feel your pain, but according to our Code of Conduct, we can't change it."

Thanks,
Regina

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time? (WIP CoC)

2016-01-11 Thread Adrian Klaver


On 01/11/2016 02:00 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

Hello,

Below please find a WIP CoC for the PostgreSQL.Org project:

PostgreSQL Global Development Group (PGDG) Code of Conduct (CoC):

1. The CoC is to provide community guidelines for creating and enforcing
a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative place for any person
who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, productive and
collaborative way.

2. The CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is
purely a recipient response and usually the offended individual is more
interested in being a victim than moving forward.

3. A safe, respectful, productive and collaborative environment is free
comments related to gender, sexual orientation, disability, physical
appearance, body size or race.


Well that renders this thread:

http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/4579835f.11355.1de...@rod.iol.ie

out of bounds and I thought it was quite productive.




4. Any sustained disruption of the collaborative space (mailing lists,
IRC etc..) or other PostgreSQL events shall be construed as a violation
of the CoC and appropriate action will be taken by the CoC committee.

5. The CoC is only about interaction with the PostgreSQL community. Your
private and public lives outside of the PostgreSQL community are your own.

6. The CoC is not about Social Justice.


Sincerely,

JD





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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Buford Tannen


Regina Obe wrote:


If we do write a CoC, can we give it a different acronym.


Notwithstanding the most regrettable childhood trauma, this request is 
exactly the kind of ridiculousness that the Political Correctness 
nonsense associated with CoCs that we should be worried about in the 
aftermath of proposed adoption.


Complaining that the acronym "CoC" is anything remotely like the thing 
the work "cock" means is, well, cockamamie


It's like someone becoming upset over the work "niggardly" as a racist 
epithet. In fact that word and the one you are thinking of are 
completely unrelated: entirely different etymology. Nothing in common 
except, on the one hand, as you imagine the acronym might be pronounced, 
and on the other because there are six similar letters.









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Re: Things to notice (was Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?, broken thread I hope)

2016-01-11 Thread Gavin Flower


On 11/01/16 15:00, Andrew Sullivan wrote:

Someone (never mind who, this isn't intended to be a blame-game
message) wrote:


Am I, as a mere male […]  :-)

It was me.

The phrase "Mere Male" was title of a column I read in NZ Women's Weekly 
that my mother bought when I was a teenager.


>>> An an aside: the use of '[...]' is something I introduced into 
usenet about 1991, previously people used '[ omitted ]'  - when I was at 
the Victoria University of Wellington (NZ) <<<


The rest of the sentience you omitted, was inspired by a woman 
complaining that when she turned up to one feminist meeting, her baby 
was removed when some other women found it was male.



Even with the smiley, _this_ is the sort of thing that causes
discussions to wander into hopeless weeds from which projects cannot
emerge.  I _know_ it is tempting to make this kind of remark.  But
it's not cool, it doesn't help, and it is exactly the sort of thing
that makes some people think CoCs are needed in the first place.
Your reply is exactly why a Coc is dangerous.  Almost anything people 
say, can be interpreted by someone as either offensive and/or inappropriate!




Suppose you were an uncertain young woman from a culture where men
have legal authority over you.  Suppose the only interaction with
programming peers you get is online.  (Yes, I know of at least one
such case personally.)  This sort of sarcastic remark, smiley or no,
causes you a new uncertainty.

It was not intended to be sarcastic.

Note that even between England and the USA there is a culture gap. For 
example: British comedians found lots of Americans could not understand 
sarcasm, hence the habit of saying 'Not!' after a positive statement and 
a short pause.




Just be sensitive to the fact that the Internet is bigger than your
world, however big it is, and things will be better.
My wife is Chinese, I lived in Sierra Leone for a couple of years, 
Ireland for about 4 years.  I was born in England, live in New Zealand, 
have visited several other countries including Australia & the USA.  I 
have also considered aspects of culture (both human & alien) relating to 
living on other planets, not all orbiting our star.  So my world view 
might be bigger than yours!


Before I started using the Internet & email I had read that electronic 
communication does not have a non-verbal component.  I've been using the 
Internet for 25 years - I found within a year that there is considerable 
non-verbal aspects to communication.  However, when you see someone 
face-to-face, you can tell their mood.  So there are some things I might 
say to someone's face, that I would not put in an email as I don't know 
their state of mind when they come to read it - that is quite apart from 
wondering what the various spy agencies will make of my communication.




I am not a big
believer in written-down rules: I think mostly they're a fetishizing
of constitutional arrangements like those of the US and Canada (which
mostly don't work for those who are not already enfranchised).  But we
can do something about that by thinking about that possibility much
more than we can do something about it by writing down rules.
Try defining a car that includes everything that you consider a car, and 
excludes everything that doesn't.  If you do the exercise properly, you 
will find it impossible, no matter how much nor how carefully you 
write!  Now most people would agree what a car is (For the Americans use 
'automobile'), yet trying to define it rigorously is simply not feasible.


Still, the exercise of writing down rules may help to notice things
one wouldn't say to a friend.  And I hope we're all friends here.
I had a boss who was a Maori who was (& is still) a great friend, of 
whom I have considerable respect.  There are things I said to him that 
are definitely not PC, that he took in the intended spirit, that would 
be inappropriate to say in public.  I was very careful not to be in that 
mode too often, as it would be somewhat wearing.  A couple of years 
later he was quite happy to hire me for another project.


It is the perceived intention of what one says that is important, not 
what one actually says!  For another example, you can be very rude 
simply by being inappropriately polite.


I've often called my best friend a bastard - but due to context, he took 
as a compliment.




Best regards,

A





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Re: Russian, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Vitaly Burovoy

On 1/11/16, Karsten Hilbert  wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 09:13:32AM +0300, Oleg Bartunov wrote:
>
>> Some people don't understand all these issues with she/he, for example,
>> we
>> in Russia are not really concern about this.
>
> Russian offers a "Mr.Bartunov" and a "Mrs.Bartunova". Am I mistaken ?
>
> Karsten Hilbert

Yes, but I guess Oleg meant pronouns in documents.
In situations like 'When the user has to do something, firstly _he_
must do something else'.
In Russian pronouns have their own "gender" not necessarily connected
to a gender of real user who is reading the doc and in most cases such
pronouns are "masculine", that's why we don't concern to replace "he"
to "he/she" or somewhat else.
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Re: Russian, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 01:50:50AM -0800, Vitaly Burovoy wrote:

> > On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 09:13:32AM +0300, Oleg Bartunov wrote:
> >
> >> Some people don't understand all these issues with she/he, for example,
> >> we
> >> in Russia are not really concern about this.
> >
> > Russian offers a "Mr.Bartunov" and a "Mrs.Bartunova". Am I mistaken ?
> >
> > Karsten Hilbert
> 
> Yes, but I guess Oleg meant pronouns in documents.
> In situations like 'When the user has to do something, firstly _he_
> must do something else'.
> In Russian pronouns have their own "gender" not necessarily connected
> to a gender of real user who is reading the doc and in most cases such
> pronouns are "masculine", that's why we don't concern to replace "he"
> to "he/she" or somewhat else.

I understand. Thank you for the explanation.

Karsten Hilbert
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Gavin Flower


On 11/01/16 19:13, Oleg Bartunov wrote:
[...]


Some people don't understand all these issues with she/he, for 
example, we in Russia are not really concern about this.



[...]

I started using 'Gender Appropriate' language long before this PC 
nonsense started up. Back in those days the word 'he' in instructions 
included the female gender, which I though was stupid. Back then, and 
also these days, I see no point in mentioning gender unless it is relevant.


So I use: one, they, their, and them.  Which avoids the gender specific 
problem, and also suggests (as is usually the case) that one or more 
people are involved.


The problem with he/she is also that it is not totally politically 
correct either, what about people who are a bit of both, and/or can't 
decide?  Not to mention people with multiple personalities, not always 
of the same gender (I spent a few years conversing with people in the 
usenet group alt.sexual.abuse.recovery - long story, but I got into it 
when I did a project on network traffic).  I also did some research when 
I read an article that said about 10% of children born on an island 
started life looking like girls, but changed into males at the time of 
puberty, apparently about 0.5% (depending on precise definitions) of 
children world wide are born not definitely of any particular gender.


Cheers,
Gavin



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Japanese, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 03:27:43PM +0900, Michael Paquier wrote:

> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Oleg Bartunov  wrote:
> > Some people don't understand all these issues with she/he, for example, we
> > in Russia are not really concern about this.
> 
> This depends on how the language is built. For example in French I
> think it would matter (not living there for long though so perhaps my
> perception is incorrect), and in Japanese it just doesn't matter,
> there is no such concept.

OTOH, there's a whole bunch of words denoting levels and
sublevels of politeness for each and every situation.

Karsten Hilbert
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Re: Japanese, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Yury Zhuravlev


On понедельник, 11 января 2016 г. 12:24:37 MSK, Karsten Hilbert wrote:

OTOH, there's a whole bunch of words denoting levels and
sublevels of politeness for each and every situation.

Politeness but not gender differences. Perhaps just for kids (-chan/-kun).
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Russian, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 09:13:32AM +0300, Oleg Bartunov wrote:

> Some people don't understand all these issues with she/he, for example, we
> in Russia are not really concern about this.

Russian offers a "Mr.Bartunov" and a "Mrs.Bartunova". Am I mistaken ?

Karsten Hilbert
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Re: Japanese, was: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 12:57:11PM +0300, Yury Zhuravlev wrote:

> >OTOH, there's a whole bunch of words denoting levels and
> >sublevels of politeness for each and every situation.
> Politeness but not gender differences. Perhaps just for kids (-chan/-kun).

Well, traditionally not. But kare/kano-jo tend to be used
that way these days. All in all, in Japanese politeness and
gender specifics seem to blend into each other.

Here's a bit of semi-formal discussion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-specific_pronoun#Japanese

Karsten
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Albe Laurenz

Tom Lane wrote:
> In my admittedly-limited experience with dealing with such problems,
> it's a lot easier to achieve positive results if you can discuss
> issues in private, before people's positions harden.
> 
> In short, I wouldn't characterize that complainant as "a troll" for
> the substance of her complaint, but maybe so for the way in which
> she went about making it.  If we're to have a CoC, I'd really like
> it (and any associated enforcement mechanism) to be designed to
> discourage this sort of let's-begin-with-public-attacks approach to
> problem resolution.  How we get to that exactly, I don't know.

There's a time-tested idea in Mt 18, 15-17:

If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just
between the two of you.  If they listen to you, you have won them over.
But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that
'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse
to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax 
collector.

"Take one or two others along" could be a CC.

Yours,
Laurenz Albe

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Kevin Grittner

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Regina Obe  wrote:

> How would you feel about the original thread that started this.
>
> https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

I'm not interested in opal, and don't have time to read a thread
with (when I looked) 374 messages, but if the gist of it is that
they have a code of conduct that attempts to control the speech or
actions of contributors outside of the venue of the lists or events
of the project, count me as -1, regardless of how offensive I might
find said speech or actions.

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Alvaro Herrera

Kevin Grittner wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Regina Obe  wrote:
> 
> > How would you feel about the original thread that started this.
> >
> > https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941
> 
> I'm not interested in opal, and don't have time to read a thread
> with (when I looked) 374 messages, but if the gist of it is that
> they have a code of conduct that attempts to control the speech or
> actions of contributors outside of the venue of the lists or events
> of the project, count me as -1, regardless of how offensive I might
> find said speech or actions.

I didn't look at this one either, but I looked at the "contributor
covenant" Regina linked to earlier (as an example of what not to do) and
was shocked to see that any random outsider can *demand* a project admin
to take action on harassment accusations, or have *the admin* be removed
from the project.  I found that totally backwards and I'd certainly be
against anything that contains such language.

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread FarjadFarid(ChkNet)

I don't know about others. 

But this whole thread has completely gone off the original track. With so many 
splinter topics. It has no hope of ever completing with any kind of resolution 
satisfying even 10% of contributors. 

Can be please stick to the core original topics? Whether we agree with them or 
not doesn't matter but let's have some direction and closure so we can all move 
on and new ideas can be formed and be discussed. 

Thank you all. 




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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

"Regina Obe"  writes:
> Sorry screwed up sending this email the first time.  Trying again:
>> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 12:39:12PM -0500, Regina Obe wrote:
>>> If you have contributed nothing to our project and you make
>>> demands for change, we will try to tell you that kindly and
>>> request you to change or leave.

>> May I kindly ask for a bit more explanation on this one ?

> I'm not sure the best way to word this one.  I agree it needs more
> clarity. The reason I put it in there is because of this:
> https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/942
> You see that guy strand.  From the way he talked, I thought he was a core
> member of Opal and had contributed a lot.
> On further inspection I discovered his only contribution was the
> contributor code of conduct.
> So the purpose is to try to prevent people who don't care about our
> project from telling us how to run our project.

Hmm.  I'm not sure that telling us that should amount to an offense;
such a person might even have a good idea from time to time.

Now, if the person is rude about it, that would be an offense, but
that should already be covered under other sections of the CoC no?

Another possibly offensive aspect of the example you're describing
is someone trying to pass themselves off as a major contributor when
they're not.  But I hesitate to try to draw guidelines for that either.

regards, tom lane

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?


> Hmm.  I'm not sure that telling us that should amount to an offense; such
a person might even have a good idea from time to time.

> Now, if the person is rude about it, that would be an offense, but that
should already be covered under other sections of the CoC no?

> Another possibly offensive aspect of the example you're describing is
someone trying to pass themselves off as a major contributor when they're
not.  But I hesitate to try to draw guidelines for that either.

>   regards, tom lane

Tom,
How would you feel about the original thread that started this.

https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941

I would dismiss her as a troll and kindly say, don't tell us who we can have
and who we can't.

Thanks,
Regina




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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Neil Tiffin

> On Jan 10, 2016, at 2:59 PM, Joshua D. Drake  wrote:
> 
> On 01/10/2016 10:44 AM, Regina Obe wrote:
> 
>>> JD
>> 
>> This may come as a big shock to many of you, but as a contributor
>> I don't care if you are racist, sexist, transphobic or whatever as long as
>> you
> 
> I think this is reasonable but my point is that we don't care if you are 
> sexist (in terms of .Org). We care if you allow your sexism to bleed into the 
> community.
> 
> In short, as long as you are professional and respectful, your personal 
> beliefs may remain your own.
> 

My problem with all of this is when there is a demand for no tolerance.  People 
cannot comfortably live and work without some level of their essence (good or 
bad) bleeding into their work.

I think Regina’s comment above is the most important comment I have read.  I 
want to work with Regina, right attitude, right focus.  And if I did step over 
the line and Regina felt the need to address the issue I would very very much 
respect it.  This is the attitude that a code of conduct should project, not 
all of the politically correct crap that is normally written.

It is important to protect the community from people who are on a mission to 
rid the world (or the community) of all ass-holes, racists, sexists, etc.  That 
is never going to happen and their personal hate trip and lack of tolerance 
should not be in the community either. Certainly there is a line that should 
not be crossed from both extremes, but we need to be tolerant while people are 
learning and adapting so the gap between the two lines needs to be as wide as 
possible.  The code of conduct IMO must address both extremes.

Honestly, I would rather work with someone that offended me every day than 
someone that was so easily offended that I had to watch every word in our 
communications.  In managing projects, my experience is that more often that 
not, the people that focused on the style of the communications (politically 
correct, pleasing words, etc.) and were easily offended by style of 
communications had contributions that were much less valuable than people that 
were neutral or rough around the edges.  The community will make more progress 
if it can find a way to accept these ‘rough around the edges’ people, not 
because they are rough, but because roughness does not degrade value except at 
the extreme.  Often someone that is ‘rough around the edges’ has to be better 
at their work to make up for it.  These are good people to keep around if 
possible.

Neil

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Buford Tannen


Buford Tannen wrote:

Regina Obe wrote:

Josh informed me you guys are thinking about a CoC.  Let me start off by
saying that I don't think you need one and in fact having one may be
dangerous. ...

So please whatever you do, ... do not
choose this one or anything that looks like it:

http://contributor-covenant.org/

I'm seeing social bullies going at every project demanding they adopt
this...



I wonder if "...unacceptable behavior by participants include: The use
of sexualized language or imagery..." includes a ban on the use of
things like makeup, eyeliner, earrings, excessively revealing or
otherwise sexually suggestive and provocative attire and accoutrements
designed to accentuate biological features for attractiveness.


Oh, and lipstick and died hair, too.


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Re: Things to notice (was Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?, broken thread I hope)

2016-01-11 Thread Andrew Sullivan

Hi,

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 10:10:23PM +1300, Gavin Flower wrote:

> The phrase "Mere Male" was title of a column I read in NZ Women's Weekly
> that my mother bought when I was a teenager.

That's nice.  I still found it offensive enough in the context to
think it worthy of note.  (I'm not really one for umbrage-taking, but
given the topic I thought it worth calling out.)

> Note that even between England and the USA there is a culture gap.

Indeed, between Canada and the US there's one, too (a gap that I
appreciate even more now that I am marooned in New Hampshire).  But I
think you're missing my point, which is that when one is working on
the Internet with an unknown selection of people from widely-differing
cultures, one needs to be even more sensitive than usual to the
possibility of creating a chilly environment.  I seem to recall that
Josh suggested at the start of this discussion that the lack of a CoC
discourages some class of participants.  One might wonder whether that
is the class one wants, and that decision is certainly past my pay
grade.  All I was trying to note was that the current conversation
about this topic itself may create the very kind of environment people
are worried about.

> So my world view might be bigger than yours!

Indeed, it might.  And I don't think I was suggesting it was bigger or
smaller; there's a reason I elided the attribution, and the "you" in
what I wrote was intended in the generic sense.  I apologise in case
that wasn't clear.

> It is the perceived intention of what one says that is important, not what
> one actually says!

I think that is perhaps a false dichotomy.  But I also think I have
said enough on this topic, so I shall stop now.

Best regards,

A

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

>ISTM that if we develop a code of conduct, it would need to be designed to 
> insulate the community and individuals within it from becoming targets of 
> legal action.  "Mike said I was bad at postgres, it hurt my consulting and I 
> want to sue Joe for replying-all and upping the hit-count on google... "

> --Scott 

 

I've given some more thought to this and come up with a draft Contributor Code 
of Conduct.  My strategy is that rather than focusing on things like Harassment 
that we can't all agree on the definition of.  

Focus on more absolutes that if you violate are harassment or cause 
psychological stress.  It is also clear, that we need to protect people in our 
community from looters, I would say we need to protect our own even more so 
than we need to make new people feel welcome.

 

So here's my draft  Contributor Code of Conduct (CCC)   to try to achieve that.

 

Like the open source technical community as a whole, our community is made up 
of a mixture of professionals and volunteers with vast differences of opinions 
and 

styles of communication.

Our community is made up of people from many cultures and walks of life who 
have come together 

with the common goals of making a great piece of software and helping others 
use this software.

 

We value contributions from everybody. By contributions we mean code, 
documentation, project outreach in form of setting up conferences or working 
groups, 

package maintenance, answering and asking questions in our forums which further 
our mission, and providing bug reports.

 

If you have contributed to our project, then we consider you a member

of our extended family and value your opinions and concerns very highly.  

 

We value the opinions of members who have contributed most more than we value 
the opinions of others.  

This is because major contributors have already proved their desire to further 
our mission, and for newcomers, 

their intention has not yet been established.

 

We want everyone entering our community willing to help out to feel welcomed.

 

To maintain and encourage a welcoming environment we ask all people interacting 
with our community to follow these guidelines when in our

public spaces.  By public spaces we mean mailing lists, IRC channels, Code 
repositories, and reporting bug reports

 

GUIDELINES

 

1) When in discussions keep focused on the topic being discussed. 

2) Say helpful things, and if you feel you have nothing to say that furthers 
the discussion, say nothing.

 

By helpful we mean for example:

If someone asks a question, even if it's one that you think has an obvious 
answer, either provide an example or a link to the section of the manual that 
covers it.

 

If you feel a person does not provide enough information for someone to help, 
point them to this link: 
https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Guide_to_reporting_problems

 

3) Do not switch the topic to yourself unless the topic happens to be about you.

For example if someone is asking a question about replication, and the words 
master and slave come up in discussion,

do not talk about the great master/slave sex you had last night.

 

4) Do not ask questions that are unrelated to the mission of our project.

 

USE OF TRIGGER TERMS

 

We have long standing terms like Master/Slave that may trigger some past trauma 
for some people.

While we do consider people's feelings, we weigh that against the effort of 
changing long understood terminology and the psychological trauma 

such changes would cause for the larger majority of people who are not as 
sensitive to the usage. 

As such we entertain change requests for naming of new features more than we do 
of renaming old features.

 

HANDLING ISSUES

 

We understand that through no fault of anybody, a person may make a comment 
they consider harmless that others find very offensive or makes another feel 
small. As project maintainers

we will monitor these and gently call people out on them even if they are a 
member of our maintainer group.

 

By gentle call out, we mean something like "I think what X was trying to say 
was that you need to do this" or point them to this document and the specific 
bullet point you feel they violated.

 

We expect of everyone in our spaces to try their best to do the same in a kind 
and gentle manner. If you feel it's just a minor offense and the person didn't 
mean harm by it, 

simply ignore it unless the pattern of talk continues. If the person continues 
or they say something you feel is very offensive or degrading to another, 

tell a project maintainer preferably off-list and we will talk with the person 
to affect a change in their behavior or kick them out if we determine behavior 
change is not possible.

 

If anyone makes you feel uncomfortable please notify the project maintainer 
group at ... with the specific occurrence and evidence that made you feel this 
way.

 

We do not tolerate those we feel are trying to derail our

Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

Brian,

>> We expect of everyone in our spaces to try their best to do the same 
>> in a kind and gentle manner. If you feel it's just a minor offense and 
>> the person didn't mean harm by it,
>>
>> simply ignore it unless the pattern of talk continues. If the person 
>> continues or they say something you feel is very offensive or 
>> degrading to another,
>
>> tell a project maintainer preferably off-list and we will talk with 
>> the person to affect a change in their behavior or kick them out if we 
>> determine behavior change is not possible.

> I am concerned about this particular wording as it implicitly assumes that 
> the offended party is correct based on how they 'feel' and requires 
> punishment of/change by the 'offender' regardless of the severity, or even 
> validity of the claim.  I don't think that is the intent, but that is how it 
> reads (to me).

Good point.  Rereading the last part,  sounds  like the victim is always right 
and is actually not needed since the next paragraph addresses it.  So how is 
this:

---
We expect of everyone in our spaces to try their best to do the same in a kind 
and gentle manner. If you feel it's just a minor offense and the person didn't 
mean harm by it, 
simply ignore it unless the pattern of talk continues. 

If anyone makes you feel uncomfortable and you feel they are purposely 
antagonistic please notify the project maintainer group at ... with the 
specific occurrence and evidence that made you feel this way.
We will judge if your complaints are valid and if we deem they are valid we 
will talk with the person to affect a change in their behavior or kick them out 
if we determine behavior change is not possible.

---

Thanks,
Regina





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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?


Hello,

A lot of good discussion has happened on this thread and as a whole I 
think it has been determined that if done correctly, a CoC would not be 
a bad idea. Of course we need to write one.


A CoC is about providing a safe, respectful, productive, and 
collaborative place for any person who is willing to contribute in a 
safe, respectful, productive and collaborative way.


A CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a 
recipients response and usually because the recipient is more interested 
in being a victim than moving forward.


JD


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-11 Thread Brian Dunavant

> We expect of everyone in our spaces to try their best to do the same in a
> kind and gentle manner. If you feel it's just a minor offense and the person
> didn't mean harm by it,
>
> simply ignore it unless the pattern of talk continues. If the person
> continues or they say something you feel is very offensive or degrading to
> another,
>
> tell a project maintainer preferably off-list and we will talk with the
> person to affect a change in their behavior or kick them out if we determine
> behavior change is not possible.

I am concerned about this particular wording as it implicitly assumes
that the offended party is correct based on how they 'feel' and
requires punishment of/change by the 'offender' regardless of the
severity, or even validity of the claim.  I don't think that is the
intent, but that is how it reads (to me).


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

Josh,

If we do write a CoC, can we give it a different acronym.  I'm going to say 
something very sensitive here, so don't think I am joking.

When I was 5 I was raped by a next door neighbor. Everytime I here people talk 
about Cocs and how silencing they are I think about that.

Thanks,
Regina

-Original Message-
From: Joshua D. Drake [mailto:j...@commandprompt.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 2:00 PM
To: Regina Obe <l...@pcorp.us>; 'Brian Dunavant' <br...@omniti.com>
Cc: 'Scott Mead' <sco...@openscg.com>; 'Adrian Klaver' 
<adrian.kla...@aklaver.com>; 'Gavin Flower' <gavinflo...@archidevsys.co.nz>; 
'PostgreSQL General' <pgsql-general@postgresql.org>
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

Hello,

A lot of good discussion has happened on this thread and as a whole I think it 
has been determined that if done correctly, a CoC would not be a bad idea. Of 
course we need to write one.

A CoC is about providing a safe, respectful, productive, and collaborative 
place for any person who is willing to contribute in a safe, respectful, 
productive and collaborative way.

A CoC is not about being offended. The act of being offended is purely a 
recipients response and usually because the recipient is more interested in 
being a victim than moving forward.

JD


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Centered full stack support, consulting and development.
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there.




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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 12:39:12PM -0500, Regina Obe wrote:

> HANDLING ISSUES

...

> If you have contributed nothing to our project and you make
> demands for change, we will try to tell you that kindly and
> request you to change or leave.

May I kindly ask for a bit more explanation on this one ?

It seems a bit narrow ?

Thanks,
Karsten Hilbert
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?


> Regina,

> Although I can appreciate your sensitivity to the terminology based on your 
> experience (and I am very sorry to read about that), I don't think it is 
> reasonable to change from an Industry Standard acronym on that basis.

> Sincerely,

> JD

Fair enough.






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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

Sorry screwed up sending this email the first time.  Trying again:

> On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 12:39:12PM -0500, Regina Obe wrote:

>> HANDLING ISSUES

>...

>> If you have contributed nothing to our project and you make
>> demands for change, we will try to tell you that kindly and
>> request you to change or leave.

> May I kindly ask for a bit more explanation on this one ?

> It seems a bit narrow ?

> Thanks,
> Karsten Hilbert
> --
> GPG key ID E4071346 @ eu.pool.sks-keyservers.net
> E167 67FD A291 2BEA 73BD  4537 78B9 A9F9 E407 1346

Karsten,

I'm not sure the best way to word this one.  I agree it needs more
clarity. The reason I put it in there is because of this:

https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/942

You see that guy strand.  From the way he talked, I thought he was a core
member of Opal and had contributed a lot.

On further inspection I discovered his only contribution was the
contributor code of conduct.

So the purpose is to try to prevent people who don't care about our
project from telling us how to run our project.

Thanks,
Regina

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?


On 01/11/2016 11:10 AM, Regina Obe wrote:

Josh,

If we do write a CoC, can we give it a different acronym.  I'm going to say 
something very sensitive here, so don't think I am joking.

When I was 5 I was raped by a next door neighbor. Everytime I here people talk 
about Cocs and how silencing they are I think about that.


Regina,

Although I can appreciate your sensitivity to the terminology based on 
your experience (and I am very sorry to read about that), I don't think 
it is reasonable to change from an Industry Standard acronym on that basis.


Sincerely,

JD

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Things to notice (was Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?, broken thread I hope)

2016-01-10 Thread Andrew Sullivan

Someone (never mind who, this isn't intended to be a blame-game
message) wrote:

> Am I, as a mere male […]  :-)

Even with the smiley, _this_ is the sort of thing that causes
discussions to wander into hopeless weeds from which projects cannot
emerge.  I _know_ it is tempting to make this kind of remark.  But
it's not cool, it doesn't help, and it is exactly the sort of thing
that makes some people think CoCs are needed in the first place.

Suppose you were an uncertain young woman from a culture where men
have legal authority over you.  Suppose the only interaction with
programming peers you get is online.  (Yes, I know of at least one
such case personally.)  This sort of sarcastic remark, smiley or no,
causes you a new uncertainty.

Just be sensitive to the fact that the Internet is bigger than your
world, however big it is, and things will be better.  I am not a big
believer in written-down rules: I think mostly they're a fetishizing
of constitutional arrangements like those of the US and Canada (which
mostly don't work for those who are not already enfranchised).  But we
can do something about that by thinking about that possibility much
more than we can do something about it by writing down rules.

Still, the exercise of writing down rules may help to notice things
one wouldn't say to a friend.  And I hope we're all friends here.

Best regards,

A

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Oleg Bartunov

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 9:44 PM, Regina Obe  wrote:

> > On 01/10/2016 08:07 AM, Bill Moran wrote:
>
> >> So, the purpose of a CoC is twofold:
> >>
> >> A) Define what "being excellent" means to this particular
> >> community.
> >> B) Provide a process for how to resolve things when "being
> >> excellent" doesn't happen.
> >>
> >> Without #1, nobody will want to do #2, as it's basically a
> >> job that can never be done correctly.
>
> > I agree with you completely. That is actually why I included the link to
> > the graphic in the last post. My point was, I have no intention of
> > having a CoC that is full of drivel. I would want a clear, concise,
> > no-B.S. CoC.
>
> > JD
>
> This may come as a big shock to many of you, but as a contributor
> I don't care if you are racist, sexist, transphobic or whatever as long as
> you
>
> 1) Are helpful when I ask a question
> 2) Stick to the topic
> 3) Don't get into petty etiquettes like "Please stop top posting"
> and if you really need to - A polite we prefer top posting would do
>
> 4) Are sensitive to people on other operating systems other than your
> preferred.
>

+1


>
>
> My other concern about CoCs is I fear someone is going to come and demand
> we change Master/Slave  to Leader/Follower, because Master is a male term
> and Slave is insensitive to grand-children of slaves.
>


Some people don't understand all these issues with she/he, for example, we
in Russia are not really concern about this.



>
>
> Thanks,
> Regina
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Michael Paquier

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Oleg Bartunov  wrote:
> Some people don't understand all these issues with she/he, for example, we
> in Russia are not really concern about this.

This depends on how the language is built. For example in French I
think it would matter (not living there for long though so perhaps my
perception is incorrect), and in Japanese it just doesn't matter,
there is no such concept.
-- 
Michael


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Gavin Flower


On 10/01/16 22:55, John R Pierce wrote:

On 1/9/2016 11:57 PM, Gavin Flower wrote:
I was at the 2015 Australian Linux Conference (held in Auckland, NZ), 
when Sarah Sharp harangued Linus Torvalds for over 20 minutes. Linus 
remained calm and polite throughout, yet most people would have been 
obviously annoyed within the first 5 minutes. 


(total outsider here, looking in)

some people are just toxic.   psychic vampires.  They can suck all the 
energy out of something while contributing little or nothing.


OTOH, she seems to have done some seriously good work, hard stuff like 
pioneering the linux framework for USB 3.0.


The more I read, the more I'm at least somewhat on her side, Linus 
does not need to be as much of an a**hole as he comes off as. For sure 
dealing with an environment like that you need to be really thick 
skinned.At times when I read about Linus and the whole kernel 
environment I think he's a vampire, but he's taking the power he's 
sucking up and building something, so maybe thats excusable... does he 
really need to be /that/ big of an ahole?  I dunno.



entirely on the other hand, I note that FreeBSD development has a 
whole lot less drama, and at least in my opinion, the kernel is a 
whole lot more stable.   h.




I sometimes look at the kernel mailing list:
 https://lkml.org
Linus is normally very mild tempered, rarely do I see him lash out, but 
I've only seen that against people who are competent, but doing/saying 
something Linus strongly disagrees with.  Most times he disagrees in an 
almost boringly mild way.


I would be quiet chuffed if Linus was rude to me - as that would mean 
that I'd met a fairly high standard.  If I sent in a really stupid 
patch, it would simply be ignored.  Though I must say, I've not, and 
almost certainly never going to, send in a kernel patch!


In the early days, Linus would quite readily admit to doing something 
stupid & suggest that he should wear a brown paper bag in shame!  He has 
a wonderful sense of humour, especially apparent in the early days of 
Linux - but his kernel release comments now appear far too professional!


Linus had said that one time he was too polite, and a developer 
persisted wasting a lot of effort before Linus could get through to 
him.  So Linus is now a lot more direct.


Sarah is an extremely brilliant and very productive kernel programmer, 
out classes me many times over in all programming metrics of any value - 
it is a grave pity that she takes comments as personal attacks.


I have immense respect for Linus, and I understand where he is coming from.

I unexpectedly had about a ten minute one-to-one conversation with him 
at the 2015 conference.  He is aware that he is far from perfect.  I 
would be very happy if I was at least 1% as he is, in terms of effective 
ability and contributions.


I suspect that Linux is more capable and growing a lot faster than any 
of the BSD's!!!  Though the BSD's may be more stable.



Cheers,
Gavin


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

> I was at the 2015 Australian Linux Conference (held in Auckland, NZ), when
Sarah Sharp harangued Linus Torvalds for over 20 minutes. Linus remained
calm and polite throughout, yet most people would have been obviously
annoyed within the first 5 minutes.  As backround see: 
>
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2988850/opensource-subnet/linux-kernel-d
ev-sarah-sharp-quits-citing-brutal-communications-style.html

> I think some people, unintentionally, set themselves up as a victim.

> So I would agree that a Coc is likely only to lead to arguments. Take
something innocuous like 'do not offend people' - sounds good, now politely
explain why someone's deeply held beliefs contradict reality!


> Cheers,
> Gavin


Sarah is my most favorite person in the world.  I made critical comments on
her blog once when she went crazy on Linus which she deleted. I must be a
troll. I see now she's into doing stats on the people she deleted comments
of.  

http://sarah.thesharps.us/2016/01/07/metrics-of-haters/

Maybe we should suggest she should use PostgreSQL for that and demonstrate
our fancy stat functions.  

She won Red Hat Woman of the Year Award -
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/women-in-open-source

Sarah Sharp
2015 Community Award winner

Am I the only one concerned about some of the women role models we have in
FOSS?

Thanks,
Regina







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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread John R Pierce


On 1/9/2016 11:57 PM, Gavin Flower wrote:
I was at the 2015 Australian Linux Conference (held in Auckland, NZ), 
when Sarah Sharp harangued Linus Torvalds for over 20 minutes. Linus 
remained calm and polite throughout, yet most people would have been 
obviously annoyed within the first 5 minutes. 


(total outsider here, looking in)

some people are just toxic.   psychic vampires.  They can suck all the 
energy out of something while contributing little or nothing.


OTOH, she seems to have done some seriously good work, hard stuff like 
pioneering the linux framework for USB 3.0.


The more I read, the more I'm at least somewhat on her side, Linus does 
not need to be as much of an a**hole as he comes off as.   For sure 
dealing with an environment like that you need to be really thick 
skinned.At times when I read about Linus and the whole kernel 
environment I think he's a vampire, but he's taking the power he's 
sucking up and building something, so maybe thats excusable... does he 
really need to be /that/ big of an ahole?  I dunno.



entirely on the other hand, I note that FreeBSD development has a whole 
lot less drama, and at least in my opinion, the kernel is a whole lot 
more stable.   h.



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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread John R Pierce


On 1/9/2016 11:37 PM, Regina Obe wrote:

Josh informed me you guys are thinking about a CoC.  Let me start off by
saying that I don't think you need one and in fact having one may be
dangerous.  I fear for your safety.


indeed.  I think this man said it best.

https://youtu.be/PjVbypiUOHA?t=35s







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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Bill Moran

On Sun, 10 Jan 2016 07:36:23 -0800
"Joshua D. Drake"  wrote:

> Hey,
> 
> For the record, my thoughts on a CoC are something like:
> 
> 1. Be excellent to each other
> 2. If you don't know what that means, leave
> 3. If someone isn't being excellent please contact: XYZ
> 
> With XYZ being a committee that determines the ABCs.

In general, I agree; but there are problems with 1 and 2.

The definition of "being excellent" varies from individual
to individual; but more importantly, from culture to culture.
As a result, pretty much everyone would have to leave as a
result of #2, because very few people know what "being
excellent" means to everyone involved.

As a result, I would feel REALLY bad for XYZ, who would be
put in the unenviable place of trying to mitigate disputes
with no guidance whatsoever.

So, the purpose of a CoC is twofold:

A) Define what "being excellent" means to this particular
   community.
B) Provide a process for how to resolve things when "being
   excellent" doesn't happen.

Without #1, nobody will want to do #2, as it's basically a
job that can never be done correctly.

But defining #1 is the really difficult part, because no matter
how you define it, there will be some people who disagree with
said definition.

The fact that Postgres has not needed a CoC up till now is a
testiment to the quality of the people in the community. However,
if Postgres continues to be more popular, the number of people
involved is going to increase. Simply as a factor of statistics,
the project will be forced to deal with some unsavory people at
some point. Having a CoC is laying the foundation to ensure that
dealing with those people involves the least pain possible. It
will always involve _some_ pain, but less is better.

I've done the job of #3 with other groups, and 99% of the time
there was nothing to do. The one incident I had to handle was
terrible, but at least I had some guidance on how to deal with
it.

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Joshua D. Drake


Hey,

For the record, my thoughts on a CoC are something like:

1. Be excellent to each other
2. If you don't know what that means, leave
3. If someone isn't being excellent please contact: XYZ

With XYZ being a committee that determines the ABCs.

Or in other words something like this (without the profanity):

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/9e/95/2f/9e952f5fadae057840e549779f4309c7.jpg

JD

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Joshua D. Drake


On 01/10/2016 08:07 AM, Bill Moran wrote:


So, the purpose of a CoC is twofold:

A) Define what "being excellent" means to this particular
community.
B) Provide a process for how to resolve things when "being
excellent" doesn't happen.

Without #1, nobody will want to do #2, as it's basically a
job that can never be done correctly.


I agree with you completely. That is actually why I included the link to 
the graphic in the last post. My point was, I have no intention of 
having a CoC that is full of drivel. I would want a clear, concise, 
no-B.S. CoC.


JD


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

> On 01/10/2016 08:07 AM, Bill Moran wrote:

>> So, the purpose of a CoC is twofold:
>>
>> A) Define what "being excellent" means to this particular
>> community.
>> B) Provide a process for how to resolve things when "being
>> excellent" doesn't happen.
>>
>> Without #1, nobody will want to do #2, as it's basically a
>> job that can never be done correctly.

> I agree with you completely. That is actually why I included the link to
> the graphic in the last post. My point was, I have no intention of
> having a CoC that is full of drivel. I would want a clear, concise,
> no-B.S. CoC.

> JD

This may come as a big shock to many of you, but as a contributor
I don't care if you are racist, sexist, transphobic or whatever as long as
you

1) Are helpful when I ask a question
2) Stick to the topic
3) Don't get into petty etiquettes like "Please stop top posting"
and if you really need to - A polite we prefer top posting would do

4) Are sensitive to people on other operating systems other than your
preferred.

One thing that really pushes my buttons is when I ask for help as a windows
user and some person makes a snide remark about why don't I switch to
Linux - problem solved
Or because I'm on windows, I don't care about performance.

Here is an example thread I recall from a while back on PostGIS list.

https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/postgis-users/2008-June/020331.html

In PostGIS group people are very good at calling out other people when
they think they've said something mean-spirited
and I think people are greatful for being called out because the nasty
person had no idea
their joke was mean.

My other concern about CoCs is I fear someone is going to come and demand
we change Master/Slave  to Leader/Follower, because Master is a male term
and Slave is insensitive to grand-children of slaves.

Thanks,
Regina

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Gavin Flower


On 11/01/16 07:44, Regina Obe wrote:
[...]

This may come as a big shock to many of you, but as a contributor
I don't care if you are racist, sexist, transphobic or whatever as long as
you

1) Are helpful when I ask a question
2) Stick to the topic
3) Don't get into petty etiquettes like "Please stop top posting"
and if you really need to - A polite we prefer top posting would do

4) Are sensitive to people on other operating systems other than your
preferred.
I once went out of my way to help someone with Mac.  They were so Mac 
centric they did not realize that they were not giving us the right 
information to help them, but this was not obvious until later in the 
thread.  I made some comment about Linux - next moment they were 
accusing everyone of not helping them properly because they were using a 
Mac, as though we had been deliberately discriminating against them!


So yes, I am sensitive to the O/S people are using, I will now avoid 
helping people who don't use Linux.  As I may not understand their needs 
properly, and I don't want to be accused of picking on them because they 
not using the "RIGHT OPERATING SYSTEM"!  But I have neither the time nor 
the expertise to even help everyone who uses Linux, even if they DO use 
the "ONE TRUE LINUX DISTRIBUTION" (being very careful not to mention the 
distribution I'm using - not wanting to start a flame war!!!).


I've twice been effective in supporting people with programs written in 
BASIC, were the version of BASIC was unfamiliar to me and I could not 
test my suggested change because they used a Microsoft O/S and I did not 
have access to any Microsoft boxen for testing purposes (at the time).  
In a recent project, I even ran a Microsoft O/S in a VM on my Linux box 
to test something for a project I was leading.  So I don't have an 
overriding religious type objections to helping people with other 
operating systems!


One thing that really pushes my buttons is when I ask for help as a windows
user and some person makes a snide remark about why don't I switch to
Linux - problem solved
Or because I'm on windows, I don't care about performance.

Here is an example thread I recall from a while back on PostGIS list.

https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/postgis-users/2008-June/020331.html

In PostGIS group people are very good at calling out other people when
they think they've said something mean-spirited
and I think people are greatful for being called out because the nasty
person had no idea
their joke was mean.

My other concern about CoCs is I fear someone is going to come and demand
we change Master/Slave  to Leader/Follower, because Master is a male term
and Slave is insensitive to grand-children of slaves.


Comrades, we are all equal! So to set one program above another is an 
anathema!  :-)



Thanks,
Regina






Chers,
Gavin


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Joshua D. Drake


On 01/10/2016 10:44 AM, Regina Obe wrote:


JD


This may come as a big shock to many of you, but as a contributor
I don't care if you are racist, sexist, transphobic or whatever as long as
you


I think this is reasonable but my point is that we don't care if you are 
sexist (in terms of .Org). We care if you allow your sexism to bleed 
into the community.


In short, as long as you are professional and respectful, your personal 
beliefs may remain your own.


JD

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Andrew Sullivan

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 01:44:37PM -0500, Regina Obe wrote:
> 1) Are helpful when I ask a question
> 2) Stick to the topic
> 3) Don't get into petty etiquettes like "Please stop top posting"
> and if you really need to - A polite we prefer top posting would do
> 
> 4) Are sensitive to people on other operating systems other than your
> preferred.

That seems like a pretty good scratch CoC to me.  (See my other note
about how other communities deal with this.)  It's concrete, short, to
the point, and a useful thing to point to when some flamewar breaks
out over irrelevant stuff.  If people want a CoC, I think it should be
something like the above.

> My other concern about CoCs is I fear someone is going to come and demand
> we change Master/Slave  to Leader/Follower, because Master is a male term
> and Slave is insensitive to grand-children of slaves.

If someone did that, it would fall under (2), no?  (I note that a
recent RFC, of which I am a co-author, about DNS terminology did say
that "primary" and "secondary" were to be preferred over "master" and
"slave".  I didn't personally agree with the claim, but that's what
got consensus.)

Best regards,

A

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Tim Clarke

On 10/01/16 18:44, Regina Obe wrote:
>
> This may come as a big shock to many of you, but as a contributor
> I don't care if you are racist, sexist, transphobic or whatever as long as
> you
>
> 1) Are helpful when I ask a question
> 2) Stick to the topic
> 3) Don't get into petty etiquettes like "Please stop top posting"
> and if you really need to - A polite we prefer top posting would do
>
> 4) Are sensitive to people on other operating systems other than your
> preferred.
>
> One thing that really pushes my buttons is when I ask for help as a windows
> user and some person makes a snide remark about why don't I switch to
> Linux - problem solved
> Or because I'm on windows, I don't care about performance.
>
> Here is an example thread I recall from a while back on PostGIS list.
>
> https://lists.osgeo.org/pipermail/postgis-users/2008-June/020331.html
>
> In PostGIS group people are very good at calling out other people when
> they think they've said something mean-spirited
> and I think people are greatful for being called out because the nasty
> person had no idea
> their joke was mean.
>
> My other concern about CoCs is I fear someone is going to come and demand
> we change Master/Slave  to Leader/Follower, because Master is a male term
> and Slave is insensitive to grand-children of slaves.
>
>
> Thanks,
> Regina

+1

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

>> She won Red Hat Woman of the Year Award -
>> https://www.redhat.com/en/about/women-in-open-source
>>
>> Sarah Sharp
>> 2015 Community Award winner
>>
>> Am I the only one concerned about some of the women role models we have
in
>> FOSS?
> Am I, as a mere male, entitled to have an opinion on this?  :-)

> It is very sad, that some people would answer the above question with a 
> resounding no!

I think anybody who has a vested interest in FOSS and in a project has the
right to say 
"I think we are sending the wrong message to the younger generation what it
takes to succeed in Open Source"

I personally feel that we are sending the message

1) Find the person who has contributed the most to a project, 
2) Select some choice pieces out of the 10,000 emails they have written that
suggests they are a jerk
3) Show this to the world and say "You see, your hero is a big jerk"
4) Have your friends twit and blog the message until everyone thinks this
guy is a big jerk.
5) Write up a lengthy painful to read doctrine about how you are going to
bring peace to the project.
6) Broadcast how your doctrine has made the project a more civil place for
discuss

BTW - I rarely try to get into things like discussing Cocs and stuff, but
this time I am just fed up with having my concentration ruined
when I could be devoting precious time to my projects.

This is causing me severe emotional distress.

Thanks,
Regina




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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Gavin Flower


On 10/01/16 21:31, Regina Obe wrote:

I was at the 2015 Australian Linux Conference (held in Auckland, NZ), when

Sarah Sharp harangued Linus Torvalds for over 20 minutes. Linus remained
calm and polite throughout, yet most people would have been obviously
annoyed within the first 5 minutes.  As backround see:
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2988850/opensource-subnet/linux-kernel-d
ev-sarah-sharp-quits-citing-brutal-communications-style.html


I think some people, unintentionally, set themselves up as a victim.
So I would agree that a Coc is likely only to lead to arguments. Take

something innocuous like 'do not offend people' - sounds good, now politely
explain why someone's deeply held beliefs contradict reality!



Cheers,
Gavin


Sarah is my most favorite person in the world.  I made critical comments on
her blog once when she went crazy on Linus which she deleted. I must be a
troll. I see now she's into doing stats on the people she deleted comments
of.
I initially heard about Sarah when I read an item about her being the 
first to implement USB 3 support, and it was for Linux!  So I started 
off having tremendous respect for her.  While I have programmed at the 
assembly level for 3 different types of processors many years ago, I am 
certain she is considerably more competent than I ever was technically.




http://sarah.thesharps.us/2016/01/07/metrics-of-haters/

I had a look at this.

While there obviously were some comments that I and most others would 
utterly condemn - there was no breakdown of other comments. So no way of 
knowing if she considered all criticism of her as being hateful.




Maybe we should suggest she should use PostgreSQL for that and demonstrate
our fancy stat functions.

She won Red Hat Woman of the Year Award -
https://www.redhat.com/en/about/women-in-open-source

Sarah Sharp
2015 Community Award winner

Am I the only one concerned about some of the women role models we have in
FOSS?

Am I, as a mere male, entitled to have an opinion on this?  :-)

It is very sad, that some people would answer the above question with a 
resounding no!




Thanks,
Regina









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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Adrian Klaver


On 01/10/2016 02:05 PM, Regina Obe wrote:

Gavin,

I once went out of my way to help someone with Mac.  They were so Mac

centric they did not realize that they were not giving us the right
information to help them, but this was not obvious until later in the
thread.  I made some comment about Linux - next moment they were accusing

everyone of not helping them properly because they were using a Mac, as

though we had been deliberately discriminating against them!

I hear ya. I do the same thing setting up a Linux VM to try to help someone
on Ubuntu or CentOS.
My main point was if you don't have anything helpful to say, don't say
anything at all.

I recall someone posting something earlier about on the lists we should have
a section like:

HELP US HELP YOU

That details the information anyone having a problem should provide to make
it easy for others to help them.
Can't find that item on mailing list.


https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Guide_to_reporting_problems



Thanks,
Regina







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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Scott Mead

On Sun, Jan 10, 2016 at 5:09 PM, Adrian Klaver 
wrote:

> On 01/10/2016 02:05 PM, Regina Obe wrote:
>
>> Gavin,
>>
>>> I once went out of my way to help someone with Mac.  They were so Mac
>>>
>> centric they did not realize that they were not giving us the right
>> information to help them, but this was not obvious until later in the
>> thread.  I made some comment about Linux - next moment they were accusing
>>
>>> everyone of not helping them properly because they were using a Mac, as
>>>
>> though we had been deliberately discriminating against them!
>>
>> I hear ya. I do the same thing setting up a Linux VM to try to help
>> someone
>> on Ubuntu or CentOS.
>> My main point was if you don't have anything helpful to say, don't say
>> anything at all.
>>
>> I recall someone posting something earlier about on the lists we should
>> have
>> a section like:
>>
>> HELP US HELP YOU
>>
>> That details the information anyone having a problem should provide to
>> make
>> it easy for others to help them.
>> Can't find that item on mailing list.
>>
>
> https://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/Guide_to_reporting_problems

Maybe I'm out of sync with everyone else, but, I think of list- and IRC
guidelines as distinctly separate from a code of conduct.  I see a code of
conduct as a legal document that allows the community to protect itself
(and individuals its individuals) from illegal and possibly predatory
behavior.  Guidelines for posting: "don't top post, don't paste 500 lines
in to IRC etc... " are things that could get the community to *ignore* you,
but not necessarily cause them to participate in a legal showdown directly
or as a 'third-party'.

   ISTM that if we develop a code of conduct, it would need to be designed
to insulate the community and individuals within it from becoming targets
of legal action.  "Mike said I was bad at postgres, it hurt my consulting
and I want to sue Joe for replying-all and upping the hit-count on
google... "

--Scott

>
>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Regina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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> adrian.kla...@aklaver.com
>
>
>
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

> On 01/10/2016 10:44 AM, Regina Obe wrote:

>>> JD
>>
>> This may come as a big shock to many of you, but as a contributor I 
>> don't care if you are racist, sexist, transphobic or whatever as long 
>> as you

> I think this is reasonable but my point is that we don't care if you are
sexist (in terms of .Org). We care if you allow your sexism to bleed into
the community.

> In short, as long as you are professional and respectful, your personal
beliefs may remain your own.

> JD

Josh,

I read the image and thought, you meant you can't have a racist, sexist
thought in your body and I looked at myself and thought
"I have racist and sexist thoughts. I might be a racist sexist pig.  I am
not welcome here. Let me find another project."

I would remove the word professional.  I think people have used that word so
much to mean newspeak that people are now scared of the term.

So something like:

Try to be helpful and respectful when talking with people in the community.

Thanks,
Regina

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

Gavin,
> I once went out of my way to help someone with Mac.  They were so Mac
centric they did not realize that they were not giving us the right
information to help them, but this was not obvious until later in the
thread.  I made some comment about Linux - next moment they were accusing 
> everyone of not helping them properly because they were using a Mac, as
though we had been deliberately discriminating against them!

I hear ya. I do the same thing setting up a Linux VM to try to help someone
on Ubuntu or CentOS.
My main point was if you don't have anything helpful to say, don't say
anything at all.

I recall someone posting something earlier about on the lists we should have
a section like:

HELP US HELP YOU

That details the information anyone having a problem should provide to make
it easy for others to help them.
Can't find that item on mailing list.


Thanks,
Regina




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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-10 Thread Jim Nasby


On 1/10/16 10:07 AM, Bill Moran wrote:

The fact that Postgres has not needed a CoC up till now is a
testiment to the quality of the people in the community. However,
if Postgres continues to be more popular, the number of people
involved is going to increase. Simply as a factor of statistics,
the project will be forced to deal with some unsavory people at
some point. Having a CoC is laying the foundation to ensure that
dealing with those people involves the least pain possible. It
will always involve_some_  pain, but less is better.

I've done the job of #3 with other groups, and 99% of the time
there was nothing to do. The one incident I had to handle was
terrible, but at least I had some guidance on how to deal with
it.


Bingo.

To me, the CoC is as much about protecting Postgres itself as it is 
about protecting contributors. Haters are going to hate, no matter what 
you do... so how do you remove them and their toxicity as cleanly as 
possible?


BTW, IMHO I think it was a mistake for the FreeBSD community to try and 
keep things quiet. Sweeping stuff like this under the rug doesn't help 
anyone. The problem is how to publicize things without scaring people 
away from reporting. Also, not allowing your CoC to become a weapon that 
someone can use offensively.

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-09 Thread Regina Obe

Josh informed me you guys are thinking about a CoC.  Let me start off by
saying that I don't think you need one and in fact having one may be
dangerous.  I fear for your safety.

I think Roxanne mentioned some good points in an earlier thread that you
should itemize what you expect to achieve with a Coc.

Quoted from her note:
"You implied in your first post that you would attract more contributors
with a CoC."

Let me say -- I do not think you will attract more contributors.  You may
in fact attract parasites.

The FreeBSD thread that is often mentioned as reason why you need a Coc is
this from Randi Harper.
http://blog.randi.io/2015/12/31/the-developer-formerly-known-as-freebsdgirl/

Randi has just blocked me on twitter after I complimented her on her nice
shallow evidence - http://imgur.com/a/UVKfZ   Perhaps questioning her
harassment claims identifies me as a troll.

I have spoken to one of her victims Roberto Rosario.  A great loving man
from what I can tell, and she has truly tried to destroy his credibility
and harassed him beyond end.  I feel so horrible that a woman claiming to
watch out for minorities and women in tech is disingenuous and will
probably laugh pushing me down, because I'm not poor and have educated
parents.

So please whatever you do, if you really feel you need a Coc, do not
choose this one or anything that looks like it:

http://contributor-covenant.org/

I'm seeing social bullies going at every project demanding they adopt this
garbage.

Who knows what their intention is, I can only imagine.


Thanks Regina,
PostGIS PSC member







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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-09 Thread Gavin Flower

On 10/01/16 20:37, Regina Obe wrote:

Josh informed me you guys are thinking about a CoC. Let me start off by
saying that I don't think you need one and in fact having one may be
dangerous. I fear for your safety.

I think Roxanne mentioned some good points in an earlier thread that you
should itemize what you expect to achieve with a Coc.

Quoted from her note:
"You implied in your first post that you would attract more contributors
with a CoC."

Let me say -- I do not think you will attract more contributors. You may
in fact attract parasites.

The FreeBSD thread that is often mentioned as reason why you need a Coc is
this from Randi Harper.
http://blog.randi.io/2015/12/31/the-developer-formerly-known-as-freebsdgirl/

Randi has just blocked me on twitter after I complimented her on her nice
shallow evidence - http://imgur.com/a/UVKfZ Perhaps questioning her
harassment claims identifies me as a troll.

I have spoken to one of her victims Roberto Rosario. A great loving man
from what I can tell, and she has truly tried to destroy his credibility
and harassed him beyond end. I feel so horrible that a woman claiming to
watch out for minorities and women in tech is disingenuous and will
probably laugh pushing me down, because I'm not poor and have educated
parents.

So please whatever you do, if you really feel you need a Coc, do not
choose this one or anything that looks like it:

http://contributor-covenant.org/

I'm seeing social bullies going at every project demanding they adopt this
garbage.

Who knows what their intention is, I can only imagine.

Thanks Regina,
PostGIS PSC member

I was at the 2015 Australian Linux Conference (held in Auckland, NZ),
when Sarah Sharp harangued Linus Torvalds for over 20 minutes. Linus
remained calm and polite throughout, yet most people would have been
obviously annoyed within the first 5 minutes. As backround see:
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2988850/opensource-subnet/linux-kernel-dev-sarah-sharp-quits-citing-brutal-communications-style.html

I think some people, unintentionally, set themselves up as a victim.

So I would agree that a Coc is likely only to lead to arguments. Take
something innocuous like 'do not offend people' - sounds good, now
politely explain why someone's deeply held beliefs contradict reality!

Cheers,
Gavin

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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?


 Hi All,

I just saw this thread. 

I tend to agree with the general idea of having a code of conduct. If you are 
on a long distance journey then it will help to have road signs every now and 
then. Following your nose won't hurt but doesn't necessarily help either! LOL 

More seriously, on the point about making Postgresql a success. I think it is 
already a success and can become bigger and better by having not just higher 
standards but also by having a business structure that allows larger number of 
companies making money out of it. This will draw more business towards the 
product.

When the Sun Microsystem went bust and was taken over by Oracle. It was a clear 
evidence that open source doesn't work commercially not even for an innovative 
company like Sun. 

Sun's experience demonstrates that commercial success is not just about better 
products. The business structure, development, marketing and pricing are all 
very important.

I am not in favour of massive price structures but that there should be 
$100-$200 costs for smallest version. Times several million products. This may 
allow postgresql to reduce its prices on its the top of the range products. 


Hope this helps. 

Well done guys you are doing a great job. 

Wish you all the best in 2016



Farjad Farid




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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-06 Thread Pavel Stehule

2016-01-06 9:20 GMT+01:00 David Rowley :

> On 6 January 2016 at 20:36, Pavel Stehule  wrote:
>
>>  Almost all developers write code for job not for hobby.
>>
>
> As much as I'm trying not to get involved in this thread mainly due to my
> lack of ability to foresee that a block of text will solve a bunch of
> problems, I do just want to point out that before I joined 2ndQuadrant that
> PostgreSQL for me was a hobby, and I did submit several patches which were
> accepted and committed. I had no sort of financial interest at all in doing
> this, I did it for free, with the only form of reward that I received was
> that it made me happy when when my code was accepted. The only thing I
> wanted out of this was to improve my skills, and I thought working with
> PostgreSQL, due to it having very high coding standards was a good choice
> for a way to do this.  If there was something being proposed here which
> would encourage more people to do as I did, then I think that would be a
> bonus. Perhaps someone may mumble something in disagreement about that
> though.
>

you are like me and all here - 1/1

Regards

Pavel


>
> It's hard for me to imagine that I've been the only person to do this.
>
> --
>  David Rowley   http://www.2ndQuadrant.com/
> 
>  PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training & Services
>

Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-06 Thread Karsten Hilbert

On Wed, Jan 06, 2016 at 11:22:17AM -, FarjadFarid(ChkNet) wrote:

> I am not in favour of massive price structures but that
> there should be $100-$200 costs for smallest version. Times
> several million products. This may allow postgresql to reduce
> its prices on its the top of the range products. 

You may be mistaking the community version for any of the
commercially supported offerings ?

Regards,
Karsten
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-06 Thread Karsten Hilbert

> I agree with Jim, something is wrong, I see our developers community isn't 
> growing and getting older.
> There is no formal problem to start contribute, but steep learning curve and
> lack of mentoring practice scare people.

The "Debian Med" Debian Blend has quite successfully used a
semi-structured mentoring effort to attract new package maintainers:

   https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMed/MoM

For what it is worth...

Karsten Hilbert


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

Hi Everyone ,

 

My only aim is further progress of postgresql. Emails are not the best medium 
for consulting about complex issues. 

 

One last point I would like to make is this.  

 

As per Sun Microsystem’s case charging zero dollars (for Java and mysql)  means 
there is zero income.

I have said all I wish to say. 

 

Whatever is the decision of the team I will happily support them. 

 

Good luck.

 

 

Farjad Farid

 

 

 

From: James Keener [mailto:j...@jimkeener.com] 
Sent: 06 January 2016 14:29
To: FarjadFarid(ChkNet); 'Karsten Hilbert'; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

 

What are you talking about? What business structure? Commercial offerings can 
and will continue to exist in terms of custom features or consulting.

Firstly, it ceases to be a community version when there is a charge. Secondly, 
it would damage our community by shrinking the size to effectively none while a 
hard fork (or more) spring up and people migrate to them. Moreover, unless you 
change the license people will redistribute newer versions for free.

So, while I have no say so in any of this, I believe it would be a very short 
sighted move. There are many other ways that money for the oss/foundation can 
be raised if money or supplies are needed.

Jim

On January 6, 2016 9:14:21 AM EST, "FarjadFarid(ChkNet)" 
<farjad.fa...@checknetworks.com> wrote:

Hi Karsten,
 You may be mistaking the community version for any of the commercially
supported offerings ?

It is possible. Please fill in the figures. 

What I am suggesting is that even for community version there should be a
charge. 

But as I mentioned it is not just prices. 

May be I wasn't very clear the most important factor is the business
structure then quality of products and marketing together with pricing.   

As a further example consider how a very small company like ARM beat giants
like Intel and Samsung in the mobile phone industry.  

It is their business model that is not profitable for Intel and Samsung to
emulate. 

*Of course they have a great products. Equally importantly their business
model makes it
realistic and profitable for other 
companies to use their services.  *

I am only providing some food for thought. For me we can all learn from
other people's successes and failures. 

I for one think everyone on the team have done a great job bringing
postgresql to this stage. 

Good luck



Farjad Farid




-Original Message-
From: pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Karsten Hilbert
Sent: 06 January 2016 11:32
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

On Wed, Jan 06, 2016 at 11:22:17AM -, FarjadFarid(ChkNet) wrote:
 I am not in favour of massive price structures but that there should 
 be $100-$200 costs for
smallest version. Times several million 
 products. This may allow postgresql to reduce its prices on its the 
 top of the range products.

You may be mistaking the community version for any of the commercially
supported offerings ?

Regards,
Karsten
--
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

Hi Karsten,

> You may be mistaking the community version for any of the commercially
supported offerings ?

It is possible. Please fill in the figures. 

What I am suggesting is that even for community version there should be a
charge. 

But as I mentioned it is not just prices. 

May be I wasn't very clear the most important factor is the business
structure then quality of products and marketing together with pricing.   

As a further example consider how a very small company like ARM beat giants
like Intel and Samsung in the mobile phone industry.  

It is their business model that is not profitable for Intel and Samsung to
emulate. 

I am only providing some food for thought. For me we can all learn from
other people's successes and failures. 

I for one think everyone on the team have done a great job bringing
postgresql to this stage. 

Good luck

Farjad Fari

-Original Message-
From: pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Karsten Hilbert
Sent: 06 January 2016 11:32
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

On Wed, Jan 06, 2016 at 11:22:17AM -, FarjadFarid(ChkNet) wrote:

> I am not in favour of massive price structures but that there should 
> be $100-$200 costs for smallest version. Times several million 
> products. This may allow postgresql to reduce its prices on its the 
> top of the range products.

You may be mistaking the community version for any of the commercially
supported offerings ?

Regards,
Karsten
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

Hi Karsten,

> You may be mistaking the community version for any of the commercially
supported offerings ?

It is possible. Please fill in the figures. 

What I am suggesting is that even for community version there should be a
charge. 

But as I mentioned it is not just prices. 

May be I wasn't very clear the most important factor is the business
structure then quality of products and marketing together with pricing.   

As a further example consider how a very small company like ARM beat giants
like Intel and Samsung in the mobile phone industry.  

It is their business model that is not profitable for Intel and Samsung to
emulate. 

*Of course they have a great products. Equally importantly their business
model makes it realistic and profitable for other 
companies to use their services.  *

I am only providing some food for thought. For me we can all learn from
other people's successes and failures. 

I for one think everyone on the team have done a great job bringing
postgresql to this stage. 

Good luck

Farjad Farid

-Original Message-
From: pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org
[mailto:pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Karsten Hilbert
Sent: 06 January 2016 11:32
To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

On Wed, Jan 06, 2016 at 11:22:17AM -, FarjadFarid(ChkNet) wrote:

> I am not in favour of massive price structures but that there should 
> be $100-$200 costs for smallest version. Times several million 
> products. This may allow postgresql to reduce its prices on its the 
> top of the range products.

You may be mistaking the community version for any of the commercially
supported offerings ?

Regards,
Karsten
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-06 Thread James Keener

What are you talking about? What business structure? Commercial offerings can 
and will continue to exist in terms of custom features or consulting.

Firstly, it ceases to be a community version when there is a charge. Secondly, 
it would damage our community by shrinking the size to effectively none while a 
hard fork (or more) spring up and people migrate to them. Moreover, unless you 
change the license people will redistribute newer versions for free.

So, while I have no say so in any of this, I believe it would be a very short 
sighted move. There are many other ways that money for the oss/foundation can 
be raised if money or supplies are needed.

Jim

On January 6, 2016 9:14:21 AM EST, "FarjadFarid(ChkNet)" 
<farjad.fa...@checknetworks.com> wrote:
>Hi Karsten,
>
>> You may be mistaking the community version for any of the
>commercially
>supported offerings ?
>
>It is possible. Please fill in the figures. 
>
>What I am suggesting is that even for community version there should be
>a
>charge. 
>
>But as I mentioned it is not just prices. 
>
>May be I wasn't very clear the most important factor is the business
>structure then quality of products and marketing together with pricing.
>  
>
>As a further example consider how a very small company like ARM beat
>giants
>like Intel and Samsung in the mobile phone industry.  
>
>It is their business model that is not profitable for Intel and Samsung
>to
>emulate. 
>
>*Of course they have a great products. Equally importantly their
>business
>model makes it realistic and profitable for other 
>companies to use their services.  *
>
>I am only providing some food for thought. For me we can all learn from
>other people's successes and failures. 
>
>I for one think everyone on the team have done a great job bringing
>postgresql to this stage. 
>
>Good luck
>
>
>
>Farjad Farid
>
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org
>[mailto:pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of Karsten
>Hilbert
>Sent: 06 January 2016 11:32
>To: pgsql-general@postgresql.org
>Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
>
>On Wed, Jan 06, 2016 at 11:22:17AM -, FarjadFarid(ChkNet) wrote:
>
>> I am not in favour of massive price structures but that there should 
>> be $100-$200 costs for smallest version. Times several million 
>> products. This may allow postgresql to reduce its prices on its the 
>> top of the range products.
>
>You may be mistaking the community version for any of the commercially
>supported offerings ?
>
>Regards,
>Karsten
>--
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>
>
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-06 Thread Melvin Davidson

All,
The subject of the discussion/track is to whether or not there should be a
code of condect (Coc).

Whether or not there should be a charge for PostgreSQL does not belong in
this track, and is, in fact, a moot point as PostgreSQL IS a _free_
database, as is this community board.

If you feel it is necessary to discuss fees, then kindly respect Josua
Drake's intent of a CoC and open a separate discussion.

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 10:03 AM, James Keener  wrote:

> > My only aim is further progress of postgresql.
> Charging for it would do exactly that. Most people would simply switch
> to MySQL (or Maria) or stop upgrading/upgrade to a fork.
>
> > As per Sun Microsystem’s case charging zero dollars (for Java and mysql)
> >  means there is zero income.
> Why do you think this is a company? There _are_ companies that offer
> support and coding. While I'm sure everyone would agree that developers
> should be able to eat (and more/better than Raman), the point of the
> "The PostgreSQL Global Development Group" and being "The world's most
> advanced open source database" is not to become Ellison. The commercial
> support and consulting offerings are there to make the money. The rest
> of us plebs just have to help each other out.
>
> Had PostgreSQL started out/never became open source, we would be having
> a very different discussion (about a very different product, if it still
> existed). As it stands, fundamentally shifting the goals, objectives, MO
> of a libre and beer free software project to something other than that
> is going to be met with a lot of resistance because it shifts how we as
> users interact with something we've interacted with in a certain way and
> with certain expectations for years.
>
> > Emails are not the best medium for consulting about complex issues.
> Emails are actually a decent medium because they allow one to express
> themselves in a well thought out and clear way. It just has to be used
> correctly (and I'm not insinuating I'm great at that).
>
> I'm not sure who Farjad is; is this a serious proposal or "just
> something someone said"? I feel religious about PostgreSQL as it really
> has changed how I view databases in general (and you know what they say
> about converts). Not that I matter, but I would feel a huge blow if I
> could no longer tell people to use it.
>
> Jim
>
>
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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-06 Thread Jim Nasby


On 1/6/16 2:17 AM, Victor Yegorov wrote:

Another very wanted change in the community is mentorship. Personally, I
don't feel confident to ask endless questions I have when looking into
the code, as I understand, that this might be a very basic (for
PostgreSQL hackers) stuff. For me it'd be a great helper, if I could
talk this over (via e-mail or any messenger) with experienced developer.
Reminds me of what we do for the GSoC, where developers volunteer for
mentoring students.
Something similar would be handy in general, perhaps with a web
interface similar to the CommitFest's one.


Please, ask your questions! The Postgres community really is one of the 
most patient and helpful OSS communities out there, and there's plenty 
of people that would be happy to explain things. Questions are also a 
good way to show where things could possibly be better commented/documented.

--
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Experts in Analytics, Data Architecture and PostgreSQL
Data in Trouble? Get it in Treble! http://BlueTreble.com


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Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?

2016-01-06 Thread Melvin Davidson

While at first glance, it would seem a code of conduct is a good idea,
having once would be pointless if there is no way to enforce it.
As others have already shown by totally ignoring the subject of this track
and hijacking it into a discussion of fees (which, IMHO, is totally
ridiculous),
there is no way it can be enforced. So while I applaud Joshua Drake for his
good intent, I there must therefore take the position of saying no to a CoC
and offer
my apologies to Mr. Drake for those that have so blatantly ignored the
point of this discussion, as they are the ones are in need of the CoC but
would most
probably ignore it anyway.

On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 10:32 AM, FarjadFarid(ChkNet) <
farjad.fa...@checknetworks.com> wrote:

> Hi James,
>
> I value your passion and commitment to postgresql. I am equally passionate
> about postgresql and am just like you another user but pointing these on
> simple commercial practical bases.
> These are simple feedbacks.
>
> Just one last example. Consider the music industry. For years Apple
> amongst others promoted low cost per unit downloads and then streaming. We
> all know the history.
>
> Once a thriving industry music industry has been decimated. Neither the
> musicians nor song writers receive proper income any more.
> All the major players recognise its current state is unsustainable.
>
> *I am sure neither of us want to see postgresql to falter.*
>
> Of course the right balance needs to be struck but for me at least the
> idea of free lunch has had its day.
>
> There can be a low enough charge that people don't feel too much of a
> pinch but enough to sustain the progress of postgresql.
>
> I genuinely don't like arguments over emails. These are complex issues.
>
> Again I for one will continue to support postgresql team whatever their
> decision may be.
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org [mailto:
> pgsql-general-ow...@postgresql.org] On Behalf Of James Keener
> Sent: 06 January 2016 15:04
> To: FarjadFarid(ChkNet); 'Karsten Hilbert'; pgsql-general@postgresql.org
> Subject: Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?
>
> > My only aim is further progress of postgresql.
> Charging for it would do exactly that. Most people would simply switch to
> MySQL (or Maria) or stop upgrading/upgrade to a fork.
>
> > As per Sun Microsystem’s case charging zero dollars (for Java and
> > mysql)  means there is zero income.
> Why do you think this is a company? There _are_ companies that offer
> support and coding. While I'm sure everyone would agree that developers
> should be able to eat (and more/better than Raman), the point of the "The
> PostgreSQL Global Development Group" and being "The world's most advanced
> open source database" is not to become Ellison. The commercial support and
> consulting offerings are there to make the money. The rest of us plebs just
> have to help each other out.
>
> Had PostgreSQL started out/never became open source, we would be having a
> very different discussion (about a very different product, if it still
> existed). As it stands, fundamentally shifting the goals, objectives, MO of
> a libre and beer free software project to something other than that is
> going to be met with a lot of resistance because it shifts how we as users
> interact with something we've interacted with in a certain way and with
> certain expectations for years.
>
> > Emails are not the best medium for consulting about complex issues.
> Emails are actually a decent medium because they allow one to express
> themselves in a well thought out and clear way. It just has to be used
> correctly (and I'm not insinuating I'm great at that).
>
> I'm not sure who Farjad is; is this a serious proposal or "just something
> someone said"? I feel religious about PostgreSQL as it really has changed
> how I view databases in general (and you know what they say about
> converts). Not that I matter, but I would feel a huge blow if I could no
> longer tell people to use it.
>
> Jim
>
>
> --
> Sent via pgsql-general mailing list (pgsql-general@postgresql.org) To
> make changes to your subscription:
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-- 
*Melvin Davidson*
I reserve the right to fantasize.  Whether or not you
wish to share my fantasy is entirely up to you.

Re: [GENERAL] Code of Conduct: Is it time?