Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Christophe Demarey]

Hi Ben,

> Le 26 mars 2018 à 17:21, Ben Coman  a écrit :
> 
> 2. Double-clicked it and got "Windows Defender SmartScreen prevented an 
> unrecognized app from starting." [1]
> (btw, I didn't get this with the msi-installer generated from Advanced 
> Installer which I linked above.  But maybe that was because the msi-installer 
> was created and installed on the same PC, so it was just trusting itself by 
> default.  The msi wasn't signed, so is the experience different on other 
> people's machine?)

For this, I can get a signed version with Inria. It just requires manual 
signing by some Inria security unit.
So I will only do this for release versions

> 3. Clicked "More Info" which allowed me to click "Run Anyway" and got...
> "To continue, enter admin user name and password" [2]
> so this is not really suited to students doing a user-level install on locked 
> down lab machines.

agree but with app signed, the problem should be solved

> 4. After entering the password for user "Admin" (i.e. not Administrator, just 
> another account in Administrators group)
> the install location was (as expected) given as 
>  "C:\Users\Admin\AppData\Local\PharoLauncher" [3]

Ah, I missed that. Not what I expected.

> which again is not friendly to non-admin users. 
> But just for kicks, I changed the install location to...  
>   "C:\Users\Ben\AppData\Local\PharoLauncher"
> and clicking on the PharoLauncher icon in the Start Menu
> it opened okay, and downloaded a 60539 image and associated VM
> and that image ran okay.
> 
> So its a step in the right direction, however...
> the Start Menu shortcut entry is for All User per its location here...
>C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\Start Menu\Programs\PharoLauncher
> and the target of the shortcut is... 
>C:\Users\Ben\AppData\Local\PharoLauncher\Pharo.exe
> so it only worked coincidentally because I'm clicking the Start Menu icon as 
> user "Ben"
> and it would be broken for a second Standard User.
> 
> From my reading it will be a struggle to get NSIS working smoothly
> for multiple use cases at different privilege levels. i.e. both non-admin and 
> admin users.

I will probably give a change to AdvancedInstaller.

Thanks for the feedback.
Christophe

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Ben Coman]

On 26 March 2018 at 22:08, Christophe Demarey 
wrote:

> Hi Ben,
>
> Le 23 mars 2018 à 19:53, Ben Coman  a écrit :
>
> Coincidentally I have returned to Windows for a short while so thought I
> should
> put my money where my mouth is and have a stab at this.  After a few hours
> trying with NSIS,
> I went searching for an alternative and Advanced Installer looked like a
> good chance.
> https://www.advancedinstaller.com/feats-list.html
> The important part of  (free) Basic Features  is "Windows 10/8/7/Vista and
> UAC installs"
> Also further down are some CI options.
>
>
> What bothers me is that it is not a free tool.
>

Its not open source, but its (beer) free for the basic features we need.
The msi-installer I created was a 'Simple' project.
https://www.advancedinstaller.com/licenses.html  says...
   "The 'Simple' projects use only freeware features ... No license is
necessary when using only freeware features in "Simple" projects. Install
packages created using these features can be freely redistributed and used
both in commercial and non-commercial purpose (subject to EULA)."

The EULA (https://www.advancedinstaller.com/eula.html) says...
  "2.1 Freeware Features License. Caphyon grants you an unlimited license
to use the Freeware Features of the Software. The install packages created
using only the Freeware Features can be freely redistributed and used both
in commercial and non-commercial purpose.
and except for Part 11 the rest seems fairly innocuous.




> I can see the list of features here: https://www.
> advancedinstaller.com/feats-list.html
>
>
> After just the "Simple Installation" tutorial and experimenting a few
> hours I ironed out
> a potential solution uploaded for testing to http://www.mediafire.com/
> file/3g579bmzqspt8e1/BCPharoLauncher.msi
> with the full build tree at  http://www.mediafire.com/
> file/5ijiww848lbkk7m/PharoLauncher%20Advanced%20Installer.zip
> Links should be live for 30 days.
> I've directly attached the much smaller installer-configuration file
> "PharoLauncher.aip".
>
>
> PharoLauncher was built with some minor changes from above...
> 1. Download/extracted  http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo6.1-win.zip
>
> 2. Renamed  Pharo6.1folder to  BCPharoLauncher
> Renamed  Pharo6.1.*  files toPharoLauncher1.1.*
>
> 3. Metacello new
>smalltalkhubUser: 'Pharo'
>project: 'PharoLauncher';
>configuration: 'PharoLauncher';
> load.
>  PharoLauncher hardResetPersistanceState: true.
>  PhLDeploymentScript doAll.
>  PhLDeploymentScript  closeWindowsAndOpenLauncher.
>  Smalltalk snapshot: true  andQuit: true.
>
> 4. Moved the  image & changes  files into a subfolder "PerUserFiles"
>
> 5. Built  BCPharoLauncher.msi
>
> I prefixed my initials to distinguish it from the current official
> PharoLauncher installer.
> Hopefully this can be adopted as the official installer and they can be
> dropped off.
>
>
> Key features:
> a.  Provides a choice to install for "Everybody" (i.e. C:\Program Files
> (x86)\Pharo\BCPharoLauncher\)
>  or "Only for me" (i.e. C:\Users\Ben\AppData\Local\Programs\Pharo\
> BCPharoLauncher\)
>  per attached screen snapshot.
>
> b.  Start the install as a Standard User and it escalates only as needed.
>
> c.  The Desktop and Start Menu shortcuts run the following script...
>
>   // File: PharoLauncher.js
>   // Author: Ben Coman 2018.03.24
>   // Purpose: Facilitate each user to run a personal copy of
> PharoLauncher.image in their own data area.
>
>   // Locations
>   basename = "\\PharoLauncher1.1";
>   WshShell = WScript.CreateObject("WScript.Shell");
>   fso = WScript.CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject");
>   systemFolder = fso.GetAbsolutePathName(".");
>   vmFilename = systemFolder + "\\Pharo.exe"
>   systemBasename = systemFolder + "\\PerUserFiles" + basename;
>   userFolder = WshShell.ExpandEnvironmentStrings("%
> LOCALAPPDATA%\\Pharo");
>   userFolder2 = userFolder + "\\PharoLauncher";
>   userBasename = userFolder2 + basename;
>
>   // Ensure user data folder exists for PharoLauncher
>   if( ! fso.FolderExists(userFolder))
>   { fso.CreateFolder(userFolder);
>fso.CreateFolder(userFolder2)
>   }
>
>   // If either  image or changes  files missing from user folder,
> copy from system folder.
>   if( ! fso.FileExists(userBasename + ".image") || !
> fso.FileExists(userBasename + ".changes"))
>   {
>//WScript.Echo("Setting up user environment");
>fso.CopyFile(systemBasename + ".image",userBasename +
> ".image", true);
>fso.CopyFile(systemBasename + ".changes",  userBasename +
> ".changes", true);
>   }
>
>   // Start personal copy of PharoLauncher
>   WshShell.Exec(vmFilename + " " + userBasename + ".image 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Christophe Demarey]

Hi Ben,

> Le 23 mars 2018 à 19:53, Ben Coman  a écrit :
> 
> Coincidentally I have returned to Windows for a short while so thought I 
> should 
> put my money where my mouth is and have a stab at this.  After a few hours 
> trying with NSIS, 
> I went searching for an alternative and Advanced Installer looked like a good 
> chance.
> https://www.advancedinstaller.com/feats-list.html 
> 
> The important part of  (free) Basic Features  is "Windows 10/8/7/Vista and 
> UAC installs"
> Also further down are some CI options. 

What bothers me is that it is not a free tool.
I can see the list of features here: 
https://www.advancedinstaller.com/feats-list.html

> 
> After just the "Simple Installation" tutorial and experimenting a few hours I 
> ironed out 
> a potential solution uploaded for testing to 
> http://www.mediafire.com/file/3g579bmzqspt8e1/BCPharoLauncher.msi 
> 
> with the full build tree at  
> http://www.mediafire.com/file/5ijiww848lbkk7m/PharoLauncher%20Advanced%20Installer.zip
>  
> 
> Links should be live for 30 days.
> I've directly attached the much smaller installer-configuration file 
> "PharoLauncher.aip". 
> 
> 
> PharoLauncher was built with some minor changes from above... 
> 1. Download/extracted  http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo6.1-win.zip 
> 
> 
> 2. Renamed  Pharo6.1folder to  BCPharoLauncher
> Renamed  Pharo6.1.*  files toPharoLauncher1.1.* 
> 
> 3. Metacello new
>smalltalkhubUser: 'Pharo'
>project: 'PharoLauncher';
>configuration: 'PharoLauncher';
> load.  
>  PharoLauncher hardResetPersistanceState: true.
>  PhLDeploymentScript doAll. 
>  PhLDeploymentScript  closeWindowsAndOpenLauncher.
>  Smalltalk snapshot: true  andQuit: true. 
> 
> 4. Moved the  image & changes  files into a subfolder "PerUserFiles"
> 
> 5. Built  BCPharoLauncher.msi
> 
> I prefixed my initials to distinguish it from the current official 
> PharoLauncher installer.
> Hopefully this can be adopted as the official installer and they can be 
> dropped off.
> 
> 
> Key features:
> a.  Provides a choice to install for "Everybody" (i.e. C:\Program Files 
> (x86)\Pharo\BCPharoLauncher\)
>  or "Only for me" (i.e. 
> C:\Users\Ben\AppData\Local\Programs\Pharo\BCPharoLauncher\)
>  per attached screen snapshot.
> 
> b.  Start the install as a Standard User and it escalates only as needed.
> 
> c.  The Desktop and Start Menu shortcuts run the following script...   
>   // File: PharoLauncher.js
>   // Author: Ben Coman 2018.03.24
>   // Purpose: Facilitate each user to run a personal copy of 
> PharoLauncher.image in their own data area.
>   
>   // Locations
>   basename = "\\PharoLauncher1.1 ";
>   WshShell = WScript.CreateObject("WScript.Shell");
>   fso = WScript.CreateObject("Scripting.FileSystemObject");
>   systemFolder = fso.GetAbsolutePathName(".");
>   vmFilename = systemFolder + "\\Pharo.exe "
>   systemBasename = systemFolder + "\\PerUserFiles 
> " + basename;
>   userFolder = 
> WshShell.ExpandEnvironmentStrings("%LOCALAPPDATA%\\Pharo");
>   userFolder2 = userFolder + "\\PharoLauncher ";
>   userBasename = userFolder2 + basename;
>   
>   // Ensure user data folder exists for PharoLauncher
>   if( ! fso.FolderExists(userFolder))
>   {   fso.CreateFolder(userFolder);
>   fso.CreateFolder(userFolder2)
>   }
>   
>   // If either  image or changes  files missing from user folder,  
> copy from system folder.  
>   if( ! fso.FileExists(userBasename + ".image") || ! 
> fso.FileExists(userBasename + ".changes")) 
>   {
>   //WScript.Echo("Setting up user environment");
>   fso.CopyFile(systemBasename + ".image",userBasename + 
> ".image", true);
>   fso.CopyFile(systemBasename + ".changes",  userBasename + 
> ".changes", true);
>   }
>   
>   // Start personal copy of PharoLauncher
>   WshShell.Exec(vmFilename + " " + userBasename + ".image »)

UAC support is really nice.
I would like to have the community opinion on using a non-free tool like 
advancedinstaller.
If there is no objection, I would consider it seriously for a next Pharo 
Launcher version.

Thanks for this work Ben!

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Christophe Demarey]

Hi Ben,

> Le 23 mars 2018 à 04:31, Ben Coman  a écrit :
> 
> P.S.  I was going to suggest also renaming  Pharo.exe  to  PharoLauncher.exe
> but with an empty Documents\Pharo\vms
> I get... "Error: Cannot detect Pharo executable in 
> C:\Temp\MyPharoLauncher\PharoLauncher"
> in PhLVirtualMachine>>initializeOn: "File @ 
> C:\Temp\MyPharoLauncher\PharoLauncher"
> since "executables := aFolder allChildrenMatching: self class executableName."
> is empty since "self class executableName" ==> "Pharo.exe"
> 
> It would be nice for that to not be hard coded.

Where would you put this information?

>   I tried digging further but ran out of time.
> I am curious it mattered since using "Pharo.exe" the Launcher went on to 
> download a VM anyway.

I use the vm shipped with the launcher when possible (e.g. to determine pharo 
images version format or run current stable images.
If I cannot find the proper vm, then I download it from files.pharo.org.

> P.S.2.
> I believe the best path forward for system-wide PharoLauncher installed under 
> "C:\Program Files"
> would be to install there only...
> * the VM 
> * PharoLauncher.ZIP 
> * a tiny non-Pharo wrapper program as the shortcut linked from AllUsers > 
> Start Menu > PharoLauncher 
> that extracts PharoLauncher.ZIP to the user's data area and then starts that 
> user specific PharoLauncher.  
> 
> Then regardless whether:
> * they individually download/extract  PharoLauncher.ZIP
> * the system-wide-wrapper extracts  PharoLauncher.ZIP
> its a similar experience for users which should aid reliability by reducing 
> the number of "different " use cases.

I now install PharoLauncher in user LOCALAPPDATA folder on windows.
Does it solve the issue for you?

Christophe

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Christophe Demarey]

Hi Cédrick,

You could give a chance to this version (not official): 
https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/pharo-launcher-installer-bleedingEdge-2018.03.23-x86.exe
It does not require anymore admin mode. I think the error below comes from 
missing write permissions on the file system.

Thanks for the feedback,
Christophe


> Le 22 mars 2018 à 22:14, Cédrick Béler  a écrit :
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I just saw students and they still have some problem on windows with the 
> launcher.
> 
> First, the launcher has to be run in admin mode.
> 
> Then, the image download starts but there is an error when uncompressing. 
> Here is the stack.
> 
> Any idea on how to fix that ?
> 
> 
> 
> FileHandle>>streamError
> FileHandle>>writeStream
> FileSystem>>writeStreamOn:
> FileReference>>writeStream
> FileReference(AbstractFileReference)>>writeStreamDo:
> ZipFileMember(ZipArchiveMember)>>extractInDirectory:overwrite:
> [ :entry | 
> | response |
> entry isDirectory
>   ifFalse: [ bar ifNotNil: [ bar label: 'Extracting ' , entry fileName ].
>   response := entry
>   extractInDirectory: aDirectory
>   overwrite: overwriteAll.
>   response == #retryWithOverwrite
>   ifTrue: [ overwriteAll := true.
>   response := entry
>   extractInDirectory: aDirectory
>   overwrite: overwriteAll ].
>   response == #abort
>   ifTrue: [ ^ self ].
>   response == #failed
>   ifTrue: [ (self confirm: 'Failed to extract ' , entry 
> fileName , '. Proceed?')
>   ifFalse: [ ^ self ] ] ] ] in 
> ZipArchive>>extractAllTo:informing:overwrite: in Block: [ :entry | ...
> OrderedCollection>>do:
> ZipArchive>>extractAllTo:informing:overwrite:
> ZipArchive>>extractAllTo:informing:
> [ :bar | self extractAllTo: aDirectory informing: bar ] in 
> ZipArchive>>extractAllTo: in Block: [ :bar | self extractAllTo: aDirectory 
> informing: ...etc...
> [ :bar | aBlock value: bar ] in MorphicUIManager>>informUserDuring: in Block: 
> [ :bar | aBlock value: bar ]
> BlockClosure>>cull:
> [ ^ block cull: self ] in [ self prepareForRunning.
> CurrentJob value: self during: [ ^ block cull: self ] ] in Job>>run in Block: 
> [ ^ block cull: self ]
> [ activeProcess psValueAt: index put: anObject.
> aBlock value ] in CurrentJob(DynamicVariable)>>value:during: in Block: [ 
> activeProcess psValueAt: index put: anObject
> BlockClosure>>ensure:
> CurrentJob(DynamicVariable)>>value:during:
> CurrentJob class(DynamicVariable class)>>value:during:
> [ self prepareForRunning.
> CurrentJob value: self during: [ ^ block cull: self ] ] in Job>>run in Block: 
> [ self prepareForRunning
> BlockClosure>>ensure:
> Job>>run
> MorphicUIManager(UIManager)>>displayProgress:from:to:during:
> MorphicUIManager>>informUserDuring:
> ZipArchive>>extractAllTo:
> PhLRemoteTemplate(PhLAbstractTemplate)>>extractZipArchive:to:
> PhLRemoteTemplate(PhLAbstractTemplate)>>extractTo:named:
> PhLDirectoryBasedImageRepository>>extractTemplate:to:
> PhLCreateImageFromTemplateCommand>>execute
> PhLCreateImageFromTemplateCommand(PhLCommand)>>executeIfApplicable
> PhLCommandButton>>performAction
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks 
> 
> Cédrick

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Christophe Demarey]

Hi Peter,

> Le 17 mars 2018 à 19:00, Peter Uhnák  a écrit :
> 
> > Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try to
> > run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
> > fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see. 
> 
> I am also experiencing this...
> 
> With ProcessWrapper the image launches maybe 1 out of 10 times...
> So I hacked for myself a solution based on Torsten's OS-Window (which uses 
> WinAPI) ... but even then the launch success rate is below 90%...
> 
> I guess Pharo really doesn't like talking to Windows…

It looks like Windows OS integration is not the top priority of the community. 
We have to do with the current situation before hoping a better support.
Could you test this version and tell me if the situation goes better? 
https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/pharo-launcher-installer-bleedingEdge-2018.03.23-x86.exe

Thanks, 
Christophe

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Christophe Demarey]

Hi Alexandre,

Yes, Pharo Launcher is maintained.
But if maintainer(s) is not aware that there are issues, they will never be 
fixed.
So please, open issues at 
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/issues with details as 
mentioned by Sean.

Thanks,
Christophe

> Le 17 mars 2018 à 17:42, Sean P. DeNigris  a écrit :
> 
> abergel wrote
>> Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX :-(
> 
> Hmm, I've been using exclusively daily for many months with minimal
> glitches. Please post OS, Pharo system report, download method and any other
> relevant details. The major "gotchas" of the past were: 1) The app has to be
> in the "Applications" folder 2) the first time it was started you needed to
> work around a signing issue e.g. via [right click]->Open->[Confirm dialog].
> The app will not open, but from now on you can just open in the normal way
> (e.g. double clicking the .app). HTH
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Christophe Demarey]

Hi Ben,

> Le 17 mars 2018 à 14:26, Ben Coman  a écrit :
> 
> 
> 
> On 17 March 2018 at 19:57, kmo > 
> wrote:
> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit) PC at
> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try to
> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
> 
> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same result.
> 
> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it should
> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
> 
> We've seen before when features are promoted in visibility (e.g. each GT tool)
> they come under more scrutiny and bump a wider set of environments 
> that cause hiccups.  Ultimately this feedback is beneficial to the tool.
> So I don't think there is any need to panic into a reversal.
> Lets give a chance to work through the issues.

Yes, that is the idea.
Testing on all OS, different versions is just not possible.
Nevertheless, it looks that there are some common bugs that I did not 
encountered when testing.
So, please test PharoLauncher and if you have issues, report them with the 
maximum information because it is hard to reproduce: 
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/issues

> (but it might be good for the older links to be also available further down 
> the page
> while Launcher issues are sorted out)
> 
> cheers -ben

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Christophe Demarey]

Hi,

> Le 17 mars 2018 à 12:57, kmo  a écrit :
> 
> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit) PC at
> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try to
> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
> 
> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same result. 

Thanks for the report.
Could you tell me if this version works better? 
https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/pharo-launcher-installer-bleedingEdge-2018.03.23-x86.exe

> 
> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it should
> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.

True. We need the launcher to run in all cases if it is the first thing a 
newbie will see from Pharo.

Christophe

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Christophe Demarey]

Hi Milton,

Thanks for the report.
It is important that Pharo Launcher works out of the box.

For Windows, I did some fixes:
- launch images from the shell in background to avoid to have the process 
killed,
- installation directory is now LOCALAPPDATA folder where user always have 
write permissions.
- new icon

Could you try it and tell me if it solves problems you had? 
https://ci.inria.fr/pharo-ci-jenkins2/job/PharoLauncher/lastSuccessfulBuild/artifact/pharo-launcher-installer-bleedingEdge-2018.03.23-x86.exe
I still need to investigate the problem on OS X.

Thanks,
Christophe.

> Le 18 mars 2018 à 11:47, Tudor Girba  a écrit :
> 
> +1
> 
> Doru
> 
> 
>> On Mar 18, 2018, at 10:30 AM, Stephane Ducasse  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks Milton!!!
>> 
>> Can you open issue on the bug tracker?
>> 
>> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/issues
>> 
>> This way we are sure that it is not lost.
>> 
>> Stef
>> 
>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 11:17 PM, milton mamani  wrote:
>>> I have issues with Pharo Launcher.
>>> 
>>> Pharo Launcher version
>>> version 1.1.1
>>> http://files.pharo.org/pharo-launcher/tmp-1.1.1/
>>> 
>>> version 1.1
>>> http://files.pharo.org/pharo-launcher/1.1/
>>> 
>>> You can get these links in https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/
>>> 
>>> OS Version
>>> Mac OS - 10.13.3
>>> 
>>> Issues
>>> 
>>> Issue #1, version 1.1 does not run in Mac OS - 10.13.3
>>> * Load P.L version 1.1
>>> * Copy the application in `Applications` folder
>>> * Try to open the program, with right-click, open
>>> * Current result the program P.L. does not run.
>>> 
>>> Issue #2 Can not open/run downloaded images
>>> * Load P.L version 1.1.1
>>> * Copy the application in `Applications` folder
>>> * Open the program, first time the program does not run
>>> * Open again the program, now the program shows a window
>>> * Try to load a pharo image, In `Templates` >> `Official distributions`>>
>>> `Pharo 6.1 stable`.
>>> * Right-click in the pharo image, then select option `Create Image`
>>> * A popup ask for a name
>>> * Introduce one name, eg: `PImage`
>>> * A loading process appears
>>> * Try to run the image with button `Launch`
>>> * Current result the image `PImage` does not run, and P.L. 1.1.1 quit on
>>> that launch.
>>> 
>>> Issue #3 Pharo debugger error appear when navigating in templates
>>> * load P.L version 1.1.1
>>> * Open the P.L
>>> * In templates area, try to load some templates
>>> * Then select one template
>>> * A debugger error window appears with the message  #selectMorphList was
>>> sent to nil
>>> * Current result: Sometimes when you try to load and select some templates
>>> an error window appear
>>> 
>>> Please tell me If you need more details about these issues
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 2018-03-17 16:42 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse :
 
 On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 12:59 PM, Alexandre Bergel
  wrote:
> Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX
> :-(
 
 Which version of Launcher?
 Which version of your OS?
 What problems?
 Can we reproduce it?
 
 Could we get pro in reporting problems?
 
 
> Is the Launcher still maintained?
 
 Alexandre
 
 Christophe spent two months fixing tons of issues.
 So could you report problems in a nicer way?
 
 
 
 
> 
> Alexandre
> 
> 
>> On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:57 AM, kmo  wrote:
>> 
>> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit)
>> PC at
>> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try
>> to
>> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
>> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
>> 
>> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same
>> result.
>> 
>> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought
>> I'd
>> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes
>> more
>> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it
>> should
>> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Sent from:
>> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>> 
> 
> 
 
>>> 
>> 
> 
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com
> www.feenk.com
> 
> "Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is the 
> right one."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Guillermo Polito]

On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 7:53 PM, Ben Coman  wrote:

>
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 11:31, Ben Coman  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 23 March 2018 at 05:14, Cédrick Béler  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I just saw students and they still have some problem on windows with the
>>> launcher.
>>>
>>> First, the launcher has to be run in admin mode.
>>>
>>> Then, the image download starts but there is an error when
>>> uncompressing. Here is the stack.
>>>
>>> Any idea on how to fix that ?
>>>
>>
>> Now I notice...
>> the Linux PharoLauncher download is a ZIP file
>> and the Mac PharoLauncher download is a ZIP file
>> so... can we make the Windows PharoLauncher download a ZIP file?
>>
>> Doing that, at least as an interim measure, would *immediately* make
>> PharoLauncher
>> usable to students on locked-down Windows machines in University student
>> labs.
>> I'd expect this will improve the success with this experiment
>> to use PharoLauncher as the main user entry point.
>>
>> The problem with using an "Installer" for the Windows PharoLauncher is
>> the large amount
>> of testing required to work *reliably* with *all* the "different ways
>> people work"
>> under several different versions of Windows introduced different layers
>> of user security intricacies.
>> Lets move forward in small steps.  A ZIP download/extract is simple, and
>> consistent with other platforms.
>>
>> In the meantime while waiting for that to happen, you can...
>>
>> 1. Download/extract  http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo6.1-win.zip
>>
>> 2. Rename  Pharo6.1folder to  PharoLauncher
>> Rename  Pharo6.1.*  files toPharoLauncher1.1.*
>>
>> 3. Metacello new
>>smalltalkhubUser: 'Pharo'
>>project: 'PharoLauncher';
>>configuration: 'PharoLauncher';
>>load.
>> PhLDeploymentScript doAll.
>> PharoLauncher open.
>> Smalltalk snapshot: true  andQuit: true.
>>
>
>> 4. Zip up the parent folder, test on another machine and provide a link
>> to your students.
>>
>> cheers -ben
>>
>>
>> P.S.  I was going to suggest also renaming  Pharo.exe  to
>> PharoLauncher.exe
>> but with an empty Documents\Pharo\vms
>> I get... "Error: Cannot detect Pharo executable in
>> C:\Temp\MyPharoLauncher\PharoLauncher"
>> in PhLVirtualMachine>>initializeOn: "File @
>> C:\Temp\MyPharoLauncher\PharoLauncher"
>> since "executables := aFolder allChildrenMatching: self class
>> executableName."
>> is empty since "self class executableName" ==> "Pharo.exe"
>>
>> It would be nice for that to not be hard coded.  I tried digging further
>> but ran out of time.
>> I am curious it mattered since using "Pharo.exe" the Launcher went on to
>> download a VM anyway.
>>
>>
>> P.S.2.
>> I believe the best path forward for system-wide PharoLauncher installed
>> under "C:\Program Files"
>> would be to install there only...
>> * the VM
>> * PharoLauncher.ZIP
>> * a tiny non-Pharo wrapper program as the shortcut linked from AllUsers >
>> Start Menu > PharoLauncher
>> that extracts PharoLauncher.ZIP to the user's data area and then starts
>> that user specific PharoLauncher.
>>
>> Then regardless whether:
>> * they individually download/extract  PharoLauncher.ZIP
>> * the system-wide-wrapper extracts  PharoLauncher.ZIP
>> its a similar experience for users which should aid reliability by
>> reducing the number of "different " use cases.
>>
>
> Coincidentally I have returned to Windows for a short while so thought I
> should
> put my money where my mouth is and have a stab at this.  After a few hours
> trying with NSIS,
> I went searching for an alternative and Advanced Installer looked like a
> good chance.
> https://www.advancedinstaller.com/feats-list.html
> The important part of  (free) Basic Features  is "Windows 10/8/7/Vista and
> UAC installs"
> Also further down are some CI options.
>
> After just the "Simple Installation" tutorial and experimenting a few
> hours I ironed out
> a potential solution uploaded for testing to
> http://www.mediafire.com/file/3g579bmzqspt8e1/BCPharoLauncher.msi
> with the full build tree at  http://www.mediafire.com/file/
> 5ijiww848lbkk7m/PharoLauncher%20Advanced%20Installer.zip
> Links should be live for 30 days.
> I've directly attached the much smaller installer-configuration file
> "PharoLauncher.aip".
>
>
> PharoLauncher was built with some minor changes from above...
> 1. Download/extracted  http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo6.1-win.zip
>
> 2. Renamed  Pharo6.1folder to  BCPharoLauncher
> Renamed  Pharo6.1.*  files toPharoLauncher1.1.*
>
> 3. Metacello new
>smalltalkhubUser: 'Pharo'
>project: 'PharoLauncher';
>configuration: 'PharoLauncher';
> load.
>  PharoLauncher hardResetPersistanceState: true.
>  PhLDeploymentScript doAll.
>  PhLDeploymentScript  closeWindowsAndOpenLauncher.
>  Smalltalk snapshot: true  andQuit: true.
>
> 4. Moved the  image & changes  files into a subfolder 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Ben Coman]

On 23 March 2018 at 11:31, Ben Coman  wrote:

>
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 05:14, Cédrick Béler  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I just saw students and they still have some problem on windows with the
>> launcher.
>>
>> First, the launcher has to be run in admin mode.
>>
>> Then, the image download starts but there is an error when uncompressing.
>> Here is the stack.
>>
>> Any idea on how to fix that ?
>>
>
> Now I notice...
> the Linux PharoLauncher download is a ZIP file
> and the Mac PharoLauncher download is a ZIP file
> so... can we make the Windows PharoLauncher download a ZIP file?
>
> Doing that, at least as an interim measure, would *immediately* make
> PharoLauncher
> usable to students on locked-down Windows machines in University student
> labs.
> I'd expect this will improve the success with this experiment
> to use PharoLauncher as the main user entry point.
>
> The problem with using an "Installer" for the Windows PharoLauncher is the
> large amount
> of testing required to work *reliably* with *all* the "different ways
> people work"
> under several different versions of Windows introduced different layers of
> user security intricacies.
> Lets move forward in small steps.  A ZIP download/extract is simple, and
> consistent with other platforms.
>
> In the meantime while waiting for that to happen, you can...
>
> 1. Download/extract  http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo6.1-win.zip
>
> 2. Rename  Pharo6.1folder to  PharoLauncher
> Rename  Pharo6.1.*  files toPharoLauncher1.1.*
>
> 3. Metacello new
>smalltalkhubUser: 'Pharo'
>project: 'PharoLauncher';
>configuration: 'PharoLauncher';
>load.
> PhLDeploymentScript doAll.
> PharoLauncher open.
> Smalltalk snapshot: true  andQuit: true.
>

> 4. Zip up the parent folder, test on another machine and provide a link to
> your students.
>
> cheers -ben
>
>
> P.S.  I was going to suggest also renaming  Pharo.exe  to
> PharoLauncher.exe
> but with an empty Documents\Pharo\vms
> I get... "Error: Cannot detect Pharo executable in
> C:\Temp\MyPharoLauncher\PharoLauncher"
> in PhLVirtualMachine>>initializeOn: "File @ C:\Temp\MyPharoLauncher\PharoL
> auncher"
> since "executables := aFolder allChildrenMatching: self class
> executableName."
> is empty since "self class executableName" ==> "Pharo.exe"
>
> It would be nice for that to not be hard coded.  I tried digging further
> but ran out of time.
> I am curious it mattered since using "Pharo.exe" the Launcher went on to
> download a VM anyway.
>
>
> P.S.2.
> I believe the best path forward for system-wide PharoLauncher installed
> under "C:\Program Files"
> would be to install there only...
> * the VM
> * PharoLauncher.ZIP
> * a tiny non-Pharo wrapper program as the shortcut linked from AllUsers >
> Start Menu > PharoLauncher
> that extracts PharoLauncher.ZIP to the user's data area and then starts
> that user specific PharoLauncher.
>
> Then regardless whether:
> * they individually download/extract  PharoLauncher.ZIP
> * the system-wide-wrapper extracts  PharoLauncher.ZIP
> its a similar experience for users which should aid reliability by
> reducing the number of "different " use cases.
>

Coincidentally I have returned to Windows for a short while so thought I
should
put my money where my mouth is and have a stab at this.  After a few hours
trying with NSIS,
I went searching for an alternative and Advanced Installer looked like a
good chance.
https://www.advancedinstaller.com/feats-list.html
The important part of  (free) Basic Features  is "Windows 10/8/7/Vista and
UAC installs"
Also further down are some CI options.

After just the "Simple Installation" tutorial and experimenting a few hours
I ironed out
a potential solution uploaded for testing to
http://www.mediafire.com/file/3g579bmzqspt8e1/BCPharoLauncher.msi
with the full build tree at
http://www.mediafire.com/file/5ijiww848lbkk7m/PharoLauncher%20Advanced%20Installer.zip
Links should be live for 30 days.
I've directly attached the much smaller installer-configuration file
"PharoLauncher.aip".


PharoLauncher was built with some minor changes from above...
1. Download/extracted  http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo6.1-win.zip

2. Renamed  Pharo6.1folder to  BCPharoLauncher
Renamed  Pharo6.1.*  files toPharoLauncher1.1.*

3. Metacello new
   smalltalkhubUser: 'Pharo'
   project: 'PharoLauncher';
   configuration: 'PharoLauncher';
load.
 PharoLauncher hardResetPersistanceState: true.
 PhLDeploymentScript doAll.
 PhLDeploymentScript  closeWindowsAndOpenLauncher.
 Smalltalk snapshot: true  andQuit: true.

4. Moved the  image & changes  files into a subfolder "PerUserFiles"

5. Built  BCPharoLauncher.msi

I prefixed my initials to distinguish it from the current official
PharoLauncher installer.
Hopefully this can be adopted as the official installer and they can be
dropped off.


Key features:
a.  Provides a choice 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Cédrick Béler]

Thx Ben for all.

I will investigate further as most of the students use windows (still I ask 
them top bring their computer cause here it’s all virtualized windows with 
network user files mounted on the virtual system launch).

> 
> btw, what is the directory here that its trying to write to?

I don’t know… I ask the student to send me the stack.

I won’t see them until 2 weeks. But I will then try with some to make this 
stuff work more reliably and give/ask feedback here.

Anyway, I still have the solution to launch the old way. So there is an 
alternative.

But I really like the launcher. It really helps organizing (for me :)). For 
students, in a first approcach it’s not that important.

> 
> 
> Now I notice... 
> the Linux PharoLauncher download is a ZIP file
> and the Mac PharoLauncher download is a ZIP file
> so... can we make the Windows PharoLauncher download a ZIP file?
> 
> Doing that, at least as an interim measure, would *immediately* make 
> PharoLauncher 
> usable to students on locked-down Windows machines in University student labs.
> I'd expect this will improve the success with this experiment 
> to use PharoLauncher as the main user entry point.
> 
> The problem with using an "Installer" for the Windows PharoLauncher is the 
> large amount 
> of testing required to work *reliably* with *all* the "different ways people 
> work"
> under several different versions of Windows introduced different layers of 
> user security intricacies. 

Oh yeah… I can see that… and since I don’t use windows since XP, I can tell you 
it’s a pain to just use it again. I (sadly) need a windows box to test.
I’m thinking also to prepare a linux virtual box image which is also 
interesting. But still, to get adoption (even for A or 2 student), its 
important that it works well on windows.

I’ll give feedback (but in 2/3 weeks).

Cheers,

Cédrick




> Lets move forward in small steps.  A ZIP download/extract is simple, and 
> consistent with other platforms.
> 
> 
> In the meantime while waiting for that to happen, you can...
> 
> 1. Download/extract  http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo6.1-win.zip 
> 
> 
> 2. Rename  Pharo6.1folder to  PharoLauncher
> Rename  Pharo6.1.*  files toPharoLauncher1.1.* 
> 
> 3. Metacello new
>smalltalkhubUser: 'Pharo'
>project: 'PharoLauncher';
>configuration: 'PharoLauncher';
>load.
> PhLDeploymentScript doAll.
> PharoLauncher open.
> Smalltalk snapshot: true  andQuit: true.
> 
> 4. Zip up the parent folder, test on another machine and provide a link to 
> your students.
> 
> cheers -ben
> 
> 
> P.S.  I was going to suggest also renaming  Pharo.exe  to  PharoLauncher.exe
> but with an empty Documents\Pharo\vms
> I get... "Error: Cannot detect Pharo executable in 
> C:\Temp\MyPharoLauncher\PharoLauncher"
> in PhLVirtualMachine>>initializeOn: "File @ 
> C:\Temp\MyPharoLauncher\PharoLauncher"
> since "executables := aFolder allChildrenMatching: self class executableName."
> is empty since "self class executableName" ==> "Pharo.exe"
> 
> It would be nice for that to not be hard coded.  I tried digging further but 
> ran out of time.
> I am curious it mattered since using "Pharo.exe" the Launcher went on to 
> download a VM anyway.
> 
> 
> P.S.2.
> I believe the best path forward for system-wide PharoLauncher installed under 
> "C:\Program Files"
> would be to install there only...
> * the VM 
> * PharoLauncher.ZIP 
> * a tiny non-Pharo wrapper program as the shortcut linked from AllUsers > 
> Start Menu > PharoLauncher 
> that extracts PharoLauncher.ZIP to the user's data area and then starts that 
> user specific PharoLauncher.  
> 
> Then regardless whether:
> * they individually download/extract  PharoLauncher.ZIP
> * the system-wide-wrapper extracts  PharoLauncher.ZIP
> its a similar experience for users which should aid reliability by reducing 
> the number of "different " use cases.

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Ben Coman]

On 23 March 2018 at 05:14, Cédrick Béler  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I just saw students and they still have some problem on windows with the
> launcher.
>
> First, the launcher has to be run in admin mode.
>
> Then, the image download starts but there is an error when uncompressing.
> Here is the stack.
>
> Any idea on how to fix that ?
>
>
>
> FileHandle>>streamError
> FileHandle>>writeStream
> FileSystem>>writeStreamOn:
> FileReference>>writeStream
> FileReference(AbstractFileReference)>>writeStreamDo:
> ZipFileMember(ZipArchiveMember)>>extractInDirectory:overwrite:
>

btw, what is the directory here that its trying to write to?


Now I notice...
the Linux PharoLauncher download is a ZIP file
and the Mac PharoLauncher download is a ZIP file
so... can we make the Windows PharoLauncher download a ZIP file?

Doing that, at least as an interim measure, would *immediately* make
PharoLauncher
usable to students on locked-down Windows machines in University student
labs.
I'd expect this will improve the success with this experiment
to use PharoLauncher as the main user entry point.

The problem with using an "Installer" for the Windows PharoLauncher is the
large amount
of testing required to work *reliably* with *all* the "different ways
people work"
under several different versions of Windows introduced different layers of
user security intricacies.
Lets move forward in small steps.  A ZIP download/extract is simple, and
consistent with other platforms.


In the meantime while waiting for that to happen, you can...

1. Download/extract  http://files.pharo.org/platform/Pharo6.1-win.zip

2. Rename  Pharo6.1folder to  PharoLauncher
Rename  Pharo6.1.*  files toPharoLauncher1.1.*

3. Metacello new
   smalltalkhubUser: 'Pharo'
   project: 'PharoLauncher';
   configuration: 'PharoLauncher';
   load.
PhLDeploymentScript doAll.
PharoLauncher open.
Smalltalk snapshot: true  andQuit: true.

4. Zip up the parent folder, test on another machine and provide a link to
your students.

cheers -ben


P.S.  I was going to suggest also renaming  Pharo.exe  to  PharoLauncher.exe
but with an empty Documents\Pharo\vms
I get... "Error: Cannot detect Pharo executable in
C:\Temp\MyPharoLauncher\PharoLauncher"
in PhLVirtualMachine>>initializeOn: "File @
C:\Temp\MyPharoLauncher\PharoLauncher"
since "executables := aFolder allChildrenMatching: self class
executableName."
is empty since "self class executableName" ==> "Pharo.exe"

It would be nice for that to not be hard coded.  I tried digging further
but ran out of time.
I am curious it mattered since using "Pharo.exe" the Launcher went on to
download a VM anyway.


P.S.2.
I believe the best path forward for system-wide PharoLauncher installed
under "C:\Program Files"
would be to install there only...
* the VM
* PharoLauncher.ZIP
* a tiny non-Pharo wrapper program as the shortcut linked from AllUsers >
Start Menu > PharoLauncher
that extracts PharoLauncher.ZIP to the user's data area and then starts
that user specific PharoLauncher.

Then regardless whether:
* they individually download/extract  PharoLauncher.ZIP
* the system-wide-wrapper extracts  PharoLauncher.ZIP
its a similar experience for users which should aid reliability by reducing
the number of "different " use cases.

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Cédrick Béler]

Hi,

I just saw students and they still have some problem on windows with the 
launcher.

First, the launcher has to be run in admin mode.

Then, the image download starts but there is an error when uncompressing. Here 
is the stack.

Any idea on how to fix that ?



FileHandle>>streamError
FileHandle>>writeStream
FileSystem>>writeStreamOn:
FileReference>>writeStream
FileReference(AbstractFileReference)>>writeStreamDo:
ZipFileMember(ZipArchiveMember)>>extractInDirectory:overwrite:
[ :entry | 
| response |
entry isDirectory
ifFalse: [ bar ifNotNil: [ bar label: 'Extracting ' , entry fileName ].
response := entry
extractInDirectory: aDirectory
overwrite: overwriteAll.
response == #retryWithOverwrite
ifTrue: [ overwriteAll := true.
response := entry
extractInDirectory: aDirectory
overwrite: overwriteAll ].
response == #abort
ifTrue: [ ^ self ].
response == #failed
ifTrue: [ (self confirm: 'Failed to extract ' , entry 
fileName , '. Proceed?')
ifFalse: [ ^ self ] ] ] ] in 
ZipArchive>>extractAllTo:informing:overwrite: in Block: [ :entry | ...
OrderedCollection>>do:
ZipArchive>>extractAllTo:informing:overwrite:
ZipArchive>>extractAllTo:informing:
[ :bar | self extractAllTo: aDirectory informing: bar ] in 
ZipArchive>>extractAllTo: in Block: [ :bar | self extractAllTo: aDirectory 
informing: ...etc...
[ :bar | aBlock value: bar ] in MorphicUIManager>>informUserDuring: in Block: [ 
:bar | aBlock value: bar ]
BlockClosure>>cull:
[ ^ block cull: self ] in [ self prepareForRunning.
CurrentJob value: self during: [ ^ block cull: self ] ] in Job>>run in Block: [ 
^ block cull: self ]
[ activeProcess psValueAt: index put: anObject.
aBlock value ] in CurrentJob(DynamicVariable)>>value:during: in Block: [ 
activeProcess psValueAt: index put: anObject
BlockClosure>>ensure:
CurrentJob(DynamicVariable)>>value:during:
CurrentJob class(DynamicVariable class)>>value:during:
[ self prepareForRunning.
CurrentJob value: self during: [ ^ block cull: self ] ] in Job>>run in Block: [ 
self prepareForRunning
BlockClosure>>ensure:
Job>>run
MorphicUIManager(UIManager)>>displayProgress:from:to:during:
MorphicUIManager>>informUserDuring:
ZipArchive>>extractAllTo:
PhLRemoteTemplate(PhLAbstractTemplate)>>extractZipArchive:to:
PhLRemoteTemplate(PhLAbstractTemplate)>>extractTo:named:
PhLDirectoryBasedImageRepository>>extractTemplate:to:
PhLCreateImageFromTemplateCommand>>execute
PhLCreateImageFromTemplateCommand(PhLCommand)>>executeIfApplicable
PhLCommandButton>>performAction



Thanks 

Cédrick

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Cédrick Béler]

> 
> 
> 
>> On 16 Mar 2018, at 16:41, Esteban Lorenzano  wrote:
>> 
>> but thing is: default download should be the launcher. 
>> because this is the “newbie-friendly” approach. 
>> 
>> All the rest can be in under a link (or a subtitle, doesn’t matters). 
> 
> It think that even that is a mistake: To give “newbies” a different download 
> than the “people that know better" is *wrong*.
> 
>   Marcus


What about havingnormal/advance mode to shore more or less images ?
Official bistro + documentation/book images ?  Then the whole stuff.

Cheers,

Cédrick

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Cédrick Béler]

CLI is cool too but it quickly becomes a mess for me ^^

Just loving the launcher on the Mac… +100 for me to push it.

Still, the CLI should be available and probably the better way to launch one 
specific image.

My 2 cents,

Cédrick

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Guillermo Polito]

If the launcher had a command line interface, I'd use it all the time :)

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Marcus Denker 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> I'm really glad PharoLauncher has been promoted to the download page,
> but it seems some people want to push PharoLauncher to *be* Pharo.
> To me this seems a poor strategy.
>
> The README file in the PharoLauncher zip downloads says...
>"Pharo 1.1-2018.01.16 This distribution was built January 16, 2018."
>
> This seems strange to me and highly likely to confuse newcomers.
> Pharo 1.1 more than a few years old.   How can something built in 2018 be
> named "Pharo 1.1" ?
>
> And if PharoLauncher is instead published as Pharo 7, then it seems
> strange to use it to run Pharo 5 images and later Pharo 8 images.
> Why not have the Downloads page just say "The recommended way to manage
> Pharo downloads is with PharoLauncher"
> and allow PharoLauncher to exist as a separate entity.  This would be
> similar similar to those applications where you download
> an initial 500kB installer, which then grabs the other 100MB from the net
> to complete the install.
>
> Also, when maybe one day we can use Pharo as a command line shell, how
> will that relate to PharoLauncher being presented "as" Pharo.
>
>
>
> What is clear is that people use many images anyway. And the more machines
> get bigger, this will happen even more.
>
> So any download can only be “the VM + a Template image”.
> => when you just start “Pharo” it starts the template (read only)
> => drag an image (or double click) -> opens that image.
>
> To make that work for real we would need to have one release per version
> (Pharo6, Pharo7, Pharo8) that you install…
>
> The launcher is a similar scheme that I think could be even better, it
> adds:
>
> - easy find images online
> - manage your images (you do not need to use it, you can just use the UI
> of your OS instead, too).
> - manage VMs in addition.
> - which means that it is just one download that people need to install to
> be able to run all old images, too.
>
> So I think if can be quite nice… it needs some iterations
>
> - simplify the UI so people know what todo when they see it the first time
> - make sure it works everywhere
> - Sign it so installation is easier
> - We need something that the images that end up on disk do not have the
> bit set that make drag-n-drop fail.
> - integrate command line: There should be a menu to write scripts to
> /usr/local/bin to run pharo images easily
> - Longterm: we need 1-file images… a container that has the image itself +
> auxiliary stuff on “disk” but that is one file.
>
> So for me this is a bit like docker: to use docker, you install docker on
> the mac. There is one way, it works.
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- 



Guille Polito

Research Engineer

Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille

CRIStAL - UMR 9189

French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr
*


*Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* 

*Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Marcus Denker]

Hi,

> 
> I'm really glad PharoLauncher has been promoted to the download page,
> but it seems some people want to push PharoLauncher to *be* Pharo.
> To me this seems a poor strategy.
> 
> The README file in the PharoLauncher zip downloads says...
>"Pharo 1.1-2018.01.16 This distribution was built January 16, 2018."
> 
> This seems strange to me and highly likely to confuse newcomers.
> Pharo 1.1 more than a few years old.   How can something built in 2018 be 
> named "Pharo 1.1" ?
> 
> And if PharoLauncher is instead published as Pharo 7, then it seems strange 
> to use it to run Pharo 5 images and later Pharo 8 images.
> Why not have the Downloads page just say "The recommended way to manage Pharo 
> downloads is with PharoLauncher"
> and allow PharoLauncher to exist as a separate entity.  This would be similar 
> similar to those applications where you download 
> an initial 500kB installer, which then grabs the other 100MB from the net to 
> complete the install. 
> 
> Also, when maybe one day we can use Pharo as a command line shell, how will 
> that relate to PharoLauncher being presented "as" Pharo.
> 
> 


What is clear is that people use many images anyway. And the more machines get 
bigger, this will happen even more. 

So any download can only be “the VM + a Template image”. 
=> when you just start “Pharo” it starts the template (read only)
=> drag an image (or double click) -> opens that image.

To make that work for real we would need to have one release per version 
(Pharo6, Pharo7, Pharo8) that you install…

The launcher is a similar scheme that I think could be even better, it adds:

- easy find images online
- manage your images (you do not need to use it, you can just use the 
UI of your OS instead, too).
- manage VMs in addition.
- which means that it is just one download that people need to install 
to be able to run all old images, too.

So I think if can be quite nice… it needs some iterations

- simplify the UI so people know what todo when they see it the first 
time
- make sure it works everywhere
- Sign it so installation is easier
- We need something that the images that end up on disk do not have the 
bit set that make drag-n-drop fail.
- integrate command line: There should be a menu to write scripts to 
/usr/local/bin to run pharo images easily
- Longterm: we need 1-file images… a container that has the image 
itself + auxiliary stuff on “disk” but that is one file.
  
So for me this is a bit like docker: to use docker, you install docker on the 
mac. There is one way, it works.

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Marcus Denker]

> On 16 Mar 2018, at 16:41, Esteban Lorenzano  wrote:
> 
> but thing is: default download should be the launcher. 
> because this is the “newbie-friendly” approach. 
> 
> All the rest can be in under a link (or a subtitle, doesn’t matters). 

It think that even that is a mistake: To give “newbies” a different download 
than the “people that know better" is *wrong*.

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Tudor Girba]

+1

Doru


> On Mar 18, 2018, at 10:30 AM, Stephane Ducasse  
> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Milton!!!
> 
> Can you open issue on the bug tracker?
> 
> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/issues
> 
> This way we are sure that it is not lost.
> 
> Stef
> 
> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 11:17 PM, milton mamani  wrote:
>> I have issues with Pharo Launcher.
>> 
>> Pharo Launcher version
>> version 1.1.1
>> http://files.pharo.org/pharo-launcher/tmp-1.1.1/
>> 
>> version 1.1
>> http://files.pharo.org/pharo-launcher/1.1/
>> 
>> You can get these links in https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/
>> 
>> OS Version
>> Mac OS - 10.13.3
>> 
>> Issues
>> 
>> Issue #1, version 1.1 does not run in Mac OS - 10.13.3
>> * Load P.L version 1.1
>> * Copy the application in `Applications` folder
>> * Try to open the program, with right-click, open
>> * Current result the program P.L. does not run.
>> 
>> Issue #2 Can not open/run downloaded images
>> * Load P.L version 1.1.1
>> * Copy the application in `Applications` folder
>> * Open the program, first time the program does not run
>> * Open again the program, now the program shows a window
>> * Try to load a pharo image, In `Templates` >> `Official distributions`>>
>> `Pharo 6.1 stable`.
>> * Right-click in the pharo image, then select option `Create Image`
>> * A popup ask for a name
>> * Introduce one name, eg: `PImage`
>> * A loading process appears
>> * Try to run the image with button `Launch`
>> * Current result the image `PImage` does not run, and P.L. 1.1.1 quit on
>> that launch.
>> 
>> Issue #3 Pharo debugger error appear when navigating in templates
>> * load P.L version 1.1.1
>> * Open the P.L
>> * In templates area, try to load some templates
>> * Then select one template
>> * A debugger error window appears with the message  #selectMorphList was
>> sent to nil
>> * Current result: Sometimes when you try to load and select some templates
>> an error window appear
>> 
>> Please tell me If you need more details about these issues
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 2018-03-17 16:42 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse :
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 12:59 PM, Alexandre Bergel
>>>  wrote:
 Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX
 :-(
>>> 
>>> Which version of Launcher?
>>> Which version of your OS?
>>> What problems?
>>> Can we reproduce it?
>>> 
>>> Could we get pro in reporting problems?
>>> 
>>> 
 Is the Launcher still maintained?
>>> 
>>> Alexandre
>>> 
>>> Christophe spent two months fixing tons of issues.
>>> So could you report problems in a nicer way?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 
 Alexandre
 
 
> On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:57 AM, kmo  wrote:
> 
> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit)
> PC at
> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try
> to
> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
> 
> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same
> result.
> 
> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought
> I'd
> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes
> more
> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it
> should
> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from:
> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
> 
 
 
>>> 
>> 
> 

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Every now and then stop and ask yourself if the war you're fighting is the 
right one."

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Tudor Girba]

+1

Doru


> On Mar 17, 2018, at 2:26 PM, Ben Coman  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 17 March 2018 at 19:57, kmo  wrote:
> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit) PC at
> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try to
> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
> 
> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same result.
> 
> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it should
> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
> 
> We've seen before when features are promoted in visibility (e.g. each GT tool)
> they come under more scrutiny and bump a wider set of environments 
> that cause hiccups.  Ultimately this feedback is beneficial to the tool.
> So I don't think there is any need to panic into a reversal.
> Lets give a chance to work through the issues.
> 
> (but it might be good for the older links to be also available further down 
> the page
> while Launcher issues are sorted out)
> 
> cheers -ben

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Yesterday is a fact.
 Tomorrow is a possibility.
 Today is a challenge."

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Stephane Ducasse]

Thanks Milton!!!

Can you open issue on the bug tracker?

https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/issues

This way we are sure that it is not lost.

Stef

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 11:17 PM, milton mamani  wrote:
> I have issues with Pharo Launcher.
>
> Pharo Launcher version
> version 1.1.1
> http://files.pharo.org/pharo-launcher/tmp-1.1.1/
>
> version 1.1
> http://files.pharo.org/pharo-launcher/1.1/
>
> You can get these links in https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/
>
> OS Version
> Mac OS - 10.13.3
>
> Issues
>
> Issue #1, version 1.1 does not run in Mac OS - 10.13.3
> * Load P.L version 1.1
> * Copy the application in `Applications` folder
> * Try to open the program, with right-click, open
> * Current result the program P.L. does not run.
>
> Issue #2 Can not open/run downloaded images
> * Load P.L version 1.1.1
> * Copy the application in `Applications` folder
> * Open the program, first time the program does not run
> * Open again the program, now the program shows a window
> * Try to load a pharo image, In `Templates` >> `Official distributions`>>
> `Pharo 6.1 stable`.
> * Right-click in the pharo image, then select option `Create Image`
> * A popup ask for a name
> * Introduce one name, eg: `PImage`
> * A loading process appears
> * Try to run the image with button `Launch`
> * Current result the image `PImage` does not run, and P.L. 1.1.1 quit on
> that launch.
>
> Issue #3 Pharo debugger error appear when navigating in templates
> * load P.L version 1.1.1
> * Open the P.L
> * In templates area, try to load some templates
> * Then select one template
> * A debugger error window appears with the message  #selectMorphList was
> sent to nil
> * Current result: Sometimes when you try to load and select some templates
> an error window appear
>
> Please tell me If you need more details about these issues
>
>
>
> 2018-03-17 16:42 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse :
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 12:59 PM, Alexandre Bergel
>>  wrote:
>> > Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX
>> > :-(
>>
>> Which version of Launcher?
>> Which version of your OS?
>> What problems?
>> Can we reproduce it?
>>
>> Could we get pro in reporting problems?
>>
>>
>> > Is the Launcher still maintained?
>>
>> Alexandre
>>
>> Christophe spent two months fixing tons of issues.
>> So could you report problems in a nicer way?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Alexandre
>> >
>> >
>> >> On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:57 AM, kmo  wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit)
>> >> PC at
>> >> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try
>> >> to
>> >> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
>> >> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
>> >>
>> >> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same
>> >> result.
>> >>
>> >> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought
>> >> I'd
>> >> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes
>> >> more
>> >> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it
>> >> should
>> >> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Sent from:
>> >> http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[milton mamani]

I have issues with Pharo Launcher.

Pharo Launcher version
version 1.1.1
http://files.pharo.org/pharo-launcher/tmp-1.1.1/

version 1.1
http://files.pharo.org/pharo-launcher/1.1/

You can get these links in https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-launcher/

OS Version
Mac OS - 10.13.3

Issues

Issue #1, version 1.1 does not run in Mac OS - 10.13.3
* Load P.L version 1.1
* Copy the application in `Applications` folder
* Try to open the program, with right-click, open
* Current result the program P.L. does not run.

Issue #2 Can not open/run downloaded images
* Load P.L version 1.1.1
* Copy the application in `Applications` folder
* Open the program, first time the program does not run
* Open again the program, now the program shows a window
* Try to load a pharo image, In `Templates` >> `Official distributions`>>
`Pharo 6.1 stable`.
* Right-click in the pharo image, then select option `Create Image`
* A popup ask for a name
* Introduce one name, eg: `PImage`
* A loading process appears
* Try to run the image with button `Launch`
* Current result the image `PImage` does not run, and P.L. 1.1.1 quit on
that launch.

Issue #3 Pharo debugger error appear when navigating in templates
* load P.L version 1.1.1
* Open the P.L
* In templates area, try to load some templates
* Then select one template
* A debugger error window appears with the message  #selectMorphList was
sent to nil
* Current result: Sometimes when you try to load and select some templates
an error window appear

Please tell me If you need more details about these issues



2018-03-17 16:42 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse :

> On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 12:59 PM, Alexandre Bergel
>  wrote:
> > Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX :-(
>
> Which version of Launcher?
> Which version of your OS?
> What problems?
> Can we reproduce it?
>
> Could we get pro in reporting problems?
>
>
> > Is the Launcher still maintained?
>
> Alexandre
>
> Christophe spent two months fixing tons of issues.
> So could you report problems in a nicer way?
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Alexandre
> >
> >
> >> On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:57 AM, kmo  wrote:
> >>
> >> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit)
> PC at
> >> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try
> to
> >> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
> >> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
> >>
> >> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same
> result.
> >>
> >> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
> >> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
> >> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it
> should
> >> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.
> html
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Stephane Ducasse]

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 1:26 PM, Cédrick Béler  wrote:

> Little feedback too.
>
> I was surprised by the new download as some students had to install on
> windows… hopefully, I had old win versions but it has disturbed me :)
> Still handy and straightforward to just put an image on the VM.
>
> But…this being said, I just tried on Mac and this works nicely and this is
> true that launcher makes the management of image clearer and easier..
> I don’t know about windows but I have to care about as 98% of students
> uses Pharo on windows...
>
> I was thinking of some adjustments:
> 1) maybe a default/advanced mode on the launcher to show only, as default,
>  Mooc/PBE5/Official distributions.
>


did you see that the Launcher already includes this?
There is a Pharo Mooc item.



> 2)  a proper icon name to display in OS’s task bars.
> When several image are opened, they should have different icons, at least
> different name when hovering, and not only Pharo.
>

The PharoLauncher should be named Pharo Launcher :).
Now we should get a nice icon.


>
> A more general feedback is about *cloud drive OS’s* (iCloud Drive,
> Dropbox, …).
> I have 3 mac’s (pro and personal). I put often files in a directory that
> are synchronized across these devices.
> - sometimes I get a message that an image are in different states
> - sync image might be long (+changes) depending on network conditions
>
> I think the question is important as the launcher download in the Document
> folder (OSX) and this directory is synchronized by default.
> What do you think about such common situation ? What are your common
> practices ?
> - lets says on two Macs and works on both
> - or I use a dropbox folder
>
> => cloud drive are cool and my impression is that we could take a better
> advantage of them for data that could be shared between (personal) images
> (Play-Cache ? Packages-cache ? … )
> ==> would it be possible to have several files for one image (chunked over
> time so only the last chunk is modified and then less file would be
> synchronized) - (I don’t know at all if possible) ?
> ==> same for changes… but this one should be easier I think.
>
> => I also find longer to share pharo system the old ways - zipping (or
> not) via USB - I think git integration produces a large number of files
> that relies slows down system copy paste (if only image this is ok)…
>
>
> My 2 cents,
>
> Cédrick
>
> PS: my experiments to make students use Pharo are very cool… I need to
> adjust my presentations/lecture but already I think I succeeded in getting
> more attraction (and potential results) than what I tried last year with
> whatever technologies (Python especially). I still use AppInventor and
> Arduino.cc.
>
> PS2: I just like what Sean said (but might be frightening at first for
> newcomers ^^)  *Pharo all the way down *
>
>
> But just in case we step into the quicksand even further, in this dystopian
>
> future you can just copy paste this definition:
>
> Pharo is a Pharo app that manages Pharo images, which can be used to make
>
> Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images, [which can be used to
>
> make Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images]*
>
>
> Haha, yes it is so fluid it cannot be described only be experienced
> through prolonged exposure, it is truly magical.
>
> Actually, that is not so far from the truth.
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Stephane Ducasse]

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 12:59 PM, Alexandre Bergel
 wrote:
> Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX :-(

Which version of Launcher?
Which version of your OS?
What problems?
Can we reproduce it?

Could we get pro in reporting problems?


> Is the Launcher still maintained?

Alexandre

Christophe spent two months fixing tons of issues.
So could you report problems in a nicer way?




>
> Alexandre
>
>
>> On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:57 AM, kmo  wrote:
>>
>> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit) PC at
>> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try to
>> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
>> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
>>
>> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same result.
>>
>> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
>> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
>> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it should
>> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Stephane Ducasse]

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 5:59 PM, Sean P. DeNigris  wrote:
> Ben Coman wrote
>> it seems some people want to push PharoLauncher to *be* Pharo.
>> To me this seems a poor strategy… This seems strange to me and highly
>> likely to confuse newcomers.
>
> Yes, this was already discussed at length on the ML.
>
> The term Pharo already has a meaning: a vm + image containing both an OOP
> language (is it Smalltalk or Smalltalk inspired? Please don't actually
> answer that lol) and IDE written therein - or you could call it prototype
> Dynabook software.
>
> If we now try to redefine the above (or really overload, because the former
> definition will still coexist) to mean an app that manages images, it may
> just be the final straw to make sure that no one ever will be able to give
> any acceptable answer in less than 2038 hours to the question: What is
> Pharo? ;)
>
> But just in case we step into the quicksand even further, in this dystopian
> future you can just copy paste this definition:
> Pharo is a Pharo app that manages Pharo images, which can be used to make
> Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images, [which can be used to
> make Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images]*

look like smurf (Schroumpf :)

>
>
>
> -
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Peter Uhnák]

 > Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try to
> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.

I am also experiencing this...

With ProcessWrapper the image launches maybe 1 out of 10 times...
So I hacked for myself a solution based on Torsten's OS-Window (which uses
WinAPI) ... but even then the launch success rate is below 90%...

I guess Pharo really doesn't like talking to Windows...

Peter

On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:42 PM, Sean P. DeNigris 
wrote:

> abergel wrote
> > Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX :-(
>
> Hmm, I've been using exclusively daily for many months with minimal
> glitches. Please post OS, Pharo system report, download method and any
> other
> relevant details. The major "gotchas" of the past were: 1) The app has to
> be
> in the "Applications" folder 2) the first time it was started you needed to
> work around a signing issue e.g. via [right click]->Open->[Confirm dialog].
> The app will not open, but from now on you can just open in the normal way
> (e.g. double clicking the .app). HTH
>
>
>
> -
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Sean P. DeNigris]

abergel wrote
> Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX :-(

Hmm, I've been using exclusively daily for many months with minimal
glitches. Please post OS, Pharo system report, download method and any other
relevant details. The major "gotchas" of the past were: 1) The app has to be
in the "Applications" folder 2) the first time it was started you needed to
work around a signing issue e.g. via [right click]->Open->[Confirm dialog].
The app will not open, but from now on you can just open in the normal way
(e.g. double clicking the .app). HTH



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Ben Coman]

On 17 March 2018 at 19:57, kmo  wrote:

> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit) PC
> at
> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try to
> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
>
> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same
> result.
>
> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it should
> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.


We've seen before when features are promoted in visibility (e.g. each GT
tool)
they come under more scrutiny and bump a wider set of environments
that cause hiccups.  Ultimately this feedback is beneficial to the tool.
So I don't think there is any need to panic into a reversal.
Lets give a chance to work through the issues.

(but it might be good for the older links to be also available further down
the page
while Launcher issues are sorted out)

cheers -ben

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Cédrick Béler]

Little feedback too.

I was surprised by the new download as some students had to install on windows… 
hopefully, I had old win versions but it has disturbed me :)
Still handy and straightforward to just put an image on the VM.

But…this being said, I just tried on Mac and this works nicely and this is true 
that launcher makes the management of image clearer and easier..
I don’t know about windows but I have to care about as 98% of students uses 
Pharo on windows...

I was thinking of some adjustments:
1) maybe a default/advanced mode on the launcher to show only, as default,  
Mooc/PBE5/Official distributions.
2)  a proper icon name to display in OS’s task bars.
When several image are opened, they should have different icons, at least 
different name when hovering, and not only Pharo.


A more general feedback is about cloud drive OS’s (iCloud Drive, Dropbox, …).
I have 3 mac’s (pro and personal). I put often files in a directory that are 
synchronized across these devices. 
- sometimes I get a message that an image are in different states
- sync image might be long (+changes) depending on network conditions

I think the question is important as the launcher download in the Document 
folder (OSX) and this directory is synchronized by default.
What do you think about such common situation ? What are your common practices ?
- lets says on two Macs and works on both
- or I use a dropbox folder 

=> cloud drive are cool and my impression is that we could take a better 
advantage of them for data that could be shared between (personal) images 
(Play-Cache ? Packages-cache ? … )
==> would it be possible to have several files for one image (chunked over time 
so only the last chunk is modified and then less file would be synchronized) - 
(I don’t know at all if possible) ?
==> same for changes… but this one should be easier I think.

=> I also find longer to share pharo system the old ways - zipping (or not) via 
USB - I think git integration produces a large number of files that relies 
slows down system copy paste (if only image this is ok)… 


My 2 cents,

Cédrick

PS: my experiments to make students use Pharo are very cool… I need to adjust 
my presentations/lecture but already I think I succeeded in getting more 
attraction (and potential results) than what I tried last year with whatever 
technologies (Python especially). I still use AppInventor and Arduino.cc 
.

PS2: I just like what Sean said (but might be frightening at first for 
newcomers ^^)  Pharo all the way down 

> 
>> But just in case we step into the quicksand even further, in this dystopian
> 
>> future you can just copy paste this definition:
> 
>> Pharo is a Pharo app that manages Pharo images, which can be used to make
> 
>> Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images, [which can be used to
> 
>> make Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images]*
> 
> 
> Haha, yes it is so fluid it cannot be described only be experienced through 
> prolonged exposure, it is truly magical.
> 
> Actually, that is not so far from the truth.

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Alexandre Bergel]

Yesterday we also experienced many problem when using Launcher on OSX :-(

Is the Launcher still maintained?

Alexandre


> On Mar 17, 2018, at 8:57 AM, kmo  wrote:
> 
> I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit) PC at
> work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try to
> run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
> fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.
> 
> I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same result. 
> 
> This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
> point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
> problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it should
> be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[kmo]

I tried the default download of Pharo Launcher on my Windows 7 (32 bit) PC at
work. It installs. Runs fine - creates images and vms  but when you try to
run them nothing happens. It fails to start the selected image. It just
fails to run the vm at all as far as I can see.

I tried it on my Windows 10 (32 bit) laptop and got exactly the same result. 

This is not important for me as I use pharo on Linux - but I thought I'd
point it out. If having the launcher as the default download causes more
problems than the traditional vm and image download then perhaps it should
be reconsidered. A pity since I love the launcher.



--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

> On 16 Mar 2018, at 17:59, Sean P. DeNigris  wrote:
> 
> Ben Coman wrote
>> it seems some people want to push PharoLauncher to *be* Pharo.
>> To me this seems a poor strategy… This seems strange to me and highly
>> likely to confuse newcomers.
> 
> Yes, this was already discussed at length on the ML. 
> 
> The term Pharo already has a meaning: a vm + image containing both an OOP
> language (is it Smalltalk or Smalltalk inspired? Please don't actually
> answer that lol) and IDE written therein - or you could call it prototype
> Dynabook software.
> 
> If we now try to redefine the above (or really overload, because the former
> definition will still coexist) to mean an app that manages images, it may
> just be the final straw to make sure that no one ever will be able to give
> any acceptable answer in less than 2038 hours to the question: What is
> Pharo? ;)
> 
> But just in case we step into the quicksand even further, in this dystopian
> future you can just copy paste this definition:
> Pharo is a Pharo app that manages Pharo images, which can be used to make
> Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images, [which can be used to
> make Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images]*

Haha, yes it is so fluid it cannot be described only be experienced through 
prolonged exposure, it is truly magical.

Actually, that is not so far from the truth.

> -
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Sean P. DeNigris]

Ben Coman wrote
> it seems some people want to push PharoLauncher to *be* Pharo.
> To me this seems a poor strategy… This seems strange to me and highly
> likely to confuse newcomers.

Yes, this was already discussed at length on the ML. 

The term Pharo already has a meaning: a vm + image containing both an OOP
language (is it Smalltalk or Smalltalk inspired? Please don't actually
answer that lol) and IDE written therein - or you could call it prototype
Dynabook software.

If we now try to redefine the above (or really overload, because the former
definition will still coexist) to mean an app that manages images, it may
just be the final straw to make sure that no one ever will be able to give
any acceptable answer in less than 2038 hours to the question: What is
Pharo? ;)

But just in case we step into the quicksand even further, in this dystopian
future you can just copy paste this definition:
Pharo is a Pharo app that manages Pharo images, which can be used to make
Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images, [which can be used to
make Pharo apps, which can be used to manage Pharo images]*



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Ben Coman]

On 15 March 2018 at 16:01, Marcus Denker  wrote:

>
>
> On 15 Mar 2018, at 00:08, Cyril Ferlicot  wrote:
>
>
> On mer. 14 mars 2018 at 18:18, Marcus Denker 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > On 9 Mar 2018, at 23:34, Torsten Bergmann  wrote:
>> >
>> > Additional portable versions would be nice too (based on a simple ZIP)
>> instead of only the installable apps
>> >
>>
>> Is there a deeper reason for this? If I look at “other systems”, they
>> manage to have *one* download, *one* way of installing.
>> For me, offering *a lot* of possible different ways means that the user
>> has to choose without knowing why there is even the option to choose…
>>
>
> The problem is that Pharo is different from other systems. When you
> install eclipse, you'll use the installed eclipse for all your projects for
> a long time.
>
> Pharo images are more like a "disposable". You'll not use the same Pharo
> image for multiple big projects and you'll more easily throw away an image
> to take a new one from time to time.
>
> Actually I think I download and delete around 5 images/day sometime.
>
> This complicate a little things because sometime you want to directly
> download one image. Sometime you want to have one application to manage
> your images (Pharo launcher)
>
> For me, the Launcher should be the “VM Download”, that comes with a) a
> default template image of the release and b) the launcher too to discover
> images.
>
> *But* it should be done in a way that you can of course just download more
> images (and I would love to have images actually being “one file”) and,
> having Pharo installed, you can run them, using the “Pharo” that you have
> installed (the launcher).
>
> The “Launcher” should feel more like “I have installed Pharo, now I can
> run images”.
>
> As such, I think we should add back links that point to single image
> downloads on the download page.
>
> Marcus
>


I'm really glad PharoLauncher has been promoted to the download page,
but it seems some people want to push PharoLauncher to *be* Pharo.
To me this seems a poor strategy.

The README file in the PharoLauncher zip downloads says...
   "Pharo 1.1-2018.01.16 This distribution was built January 16, 2018."

This seems strange to me and highly likely to confuse newcomers.
Pharo 1.1 more than a few years old.   How can something built in 2018 be
named "Pharo 1.1" ?

And if PharoLauncher is instead published as Pharo 7, then it seems strange
to use it to run Pharo 5 images and later Pharo 8 images.
Why not have the Downloads page just say "The recommended way to manage
Pharo downloads is with PharoLauncher"
and allow PharoLauncher to exist as a separate entity.  This would be
similar similar to those applications where you download
an initial 500kB installer, which then grabs the other 100MB from the net
to complete the install.

Also, when maybe one day we can use Pharo as a command line shell, how will
that relate to PharoLauncher being presented "as" Pharo.


cheers -ben



P.S.  Perhaps the idea of App Store has some similarities to
PharoLauncher,
since in an App Store you search for programs to download and run.
A further evolution of PharoLauncher might become PharoStore
Now Apple's app store is not called "OSX" and Microsoft's app store is not
called "Windows".
They are separate entities .

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Esteban Lorenzano]

but thing is: default download should be the launcher. 
because this is the “newbie-friendly” approach. 

All the rest can be in under a link (or a subtitle, doesn’t matters). 

Esteban

> On 16 Mar 2018, at 08:50, Stephane Ducasse  wrote:
> 
> I do not see why this is a problem to have the launcher and Pharo.
> The launcher is an App and Pharo another.
> Yesterday the launcher crashed on Windows when I tried to pair program
> with someone so we downloaded
> the default Pharo version.
> Why do we want to make things complex.
> 
> You want Pharo
> - donwload it
> 
> You want to manage your pharo devs and access jenkins and other services
> - use the launcher.
> 
> Stef
> 
> On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Marcus Denker  wrote:
>> -> better structure
>> -> simplified the large print (no need to talk about downloading zip files)
>> 
>> TODO:
>>- add back a section about downloading images.
>> 
>>> On 14 Mar 2018, at 18:18, Marcus Denker  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Ok, I will fix that in the next pass.
>>> 
 On 9 Mar 2018, at 18:10, Sean P. DeNigris  wrote:
 
 Marcus Denker-4 wrote
> comments welcome…
 
 IHMO the structure is a little confusing because the first heading "Usage"
 (Launcher implied) is on the same level as other methods like "Linux
 Packages". I think there needs to be something like a header one level
 higher like "Other Options" between these two sections.
 
 
 
 -
 Cheers,
 Sean
 --
 Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Christophe Demarey]

> Le 15 mars 2018 à 09:27, Esteban Lorenzano  a écrit :
> 
> - OBS for the launcher (to have linux packaging)

yes, would be nice

> - signing the launcher on mac (we already did this for the VM, we can do the 
> same for launcher).

you sign the executable, so it mean signe the VM with another certificate => 
rebuild the VM

> And distribute it as dmg, not zip (a dmg is just a zip renamed so no problem 
> here).

It is already a dmg. Did you try it? ;)

> - a windows installer

Here also, it is already like that.
You forgot to mention: sign Windows app so that Windows Defender does not warn 
you that it is a malicious software and you should not install it

Christophe

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Stephane Ducasse]

I do not see why this is a problem to have the launcher and Pharo.
The launcher is an App and Pharo another.
Yesterday the launcher crashed on Windows when I tried to pair program
with someone so we downloaded
the default Pharo version.
Why do we want to make things complex.

You want Pharo
- donwload it

You want to manage your pharo devs and access jenkins and other services
- use the launcher.

Stef

On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 3:38 PM, Marcus Denker  wrote:
> -> better structure
> -> simplified the large print (no need to talk about downloading zip files)
>
> TODO:
> - add back a section about downloading images.
>
>> On 14 Mar 2018, at 18:18, Marcus Denker  wrote:
>>
>> Ok, I will fix that in the next pass.
>>
>>> On 9 Mar 2018, at 18:10, Sean P. DeNigris  wrote:
>>>
>>> Marcus Denker-4 wrote
 comments welcome…
>>>
>>> IHMO the structure is a little confusing because the first heading "Usage"
>>> (Launcher implied) is on the same level as other methods like "Linux
>>> Packages". I think there needs to be something like a header one level
>>> higher like "Other Options" between these two sections.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Cheers,
>>> Sean
>>> --
>>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Marcus Denker]

-> better structure
-> simplified the large print (no need to talk about downloading zip files)

TODO:
- add back a section about downloading images.

> On 14 Mar 2018, at 18:18, Marcus Denker  wrote:
> 
> Ok, I will fix that in the next pass.
> 
>> On 9 Mar 2018, at 18:10, Sean P. DeNigris  wrote:
>> 
>> Marcus Denker-4 wrote
>>> comments welcome… 
>> 
>> IHMO the structure is a little confusing because the first heading "Usage"
>> (Launcher implied) is on the same level as other methods like "Linux
>> Packages". I think there needs to be something like a header one level
>> higher like "Other Options" between these two sections.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> Cheers,
>> Sean
>> --
>> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
>> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Esteban Lorenzano]

> On 15 Mar 2018, at 09:34, Marcus Denker  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 15 Mar 2018, at 09:27, Esteban Lorenzano > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 15 Mar 2018, at 00:08, Cyril Ferlicot >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On mer. 14 mars 2018 at 18:18, Marcus Denker >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > On 9 Mar 2018, at 23:34, Torsten Bergmann >> > > wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Additional portable versions would be nice too (based on a simple ZIP) 
>>> > instead of only the installable apps
>>> >
>>> 
>>> Is there a deeper reason for this? If I look at “other systems”, they 
>>> manage to have *one* download, *one* way of installing.
>>> For me, offering *a lot* of possible different ways means that the user has 
>>> to choose without knowing why there is even the option to choose…
>>> 
>>> The problem is that Pharo is different from other systems. When you install 
>>> eclipse, you'll use the installed eclipse for all your projects for a long 
>>> time.
>>> 
>>> Pharo images are more like a "disposable". You'll not use the same Pharo 
>>> image for multiple big projects and you'll more easily throw away an image 
>>> to take a new one from time to time. 
>>> 
>>> Actually I think I download and delete around 5 images/day sometime. 
>> 
>> IMO this just strengthen Marcus argument :)
>> 
>>> This complicate a little things because sometime you want to directly 
>>> download one image. Sometime you want to have one application to manage 
>>> your images (Pharo launcher) 
>> 
>> Why? You have launcher: you download all images you want (btw… I still 
>> believe launcher UI needs love, but one thing at a time ;) )
>> And if you need more complex stuff, you always have the “other” section. 
>> 
>> but I side with Marcus here: we need ONE blessed way of manage pharo, 
>> otherwise is an un-managable mess.
>> 
>> cheers, 
>> Esteban
>> 
>> ps: btw, we’ll need also 
>> - OBS for the launcher (to have linux packaging)
>> - signing the launcher on mac (we already did this for the VM, we can do the 
>> same for launcher). And distribute it as dmg, not zip (a dmg is just a zip 
>> renamed so no problem here).
>> - a windows installer
>> 
> and I would love support for this: https://sparkle-project.org 
>  to keep the “Pharo” app always up-to-date

dreams, dreams… 
maybe next year I will have time to do some of this? who knows… 

> .
> 
>   Marcus

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Marcus Denker]

> On 15 Mar 2018, at 09:27, Esteban Lorenzano  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 15 Mar 2018, at 00:08, Cyril Ferlicot > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On mer. 14 mars 2018 at 18:18, Marcus Denker > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> > On 9 Mar 2018, at 23:34, Torsten Bergmann > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > Additional portable versions would be nice too (based on a simple ZIP) 
>> > instead of only the installable apps
>> >
>> 
>> Is there a deeper reason for this? If I look at “other systems”, they manage 
>> to have *one* download, *one* way of installing.
>> For me, offering *a lot* of possible different ways means that the user has 
>> to choose without knowing why there is even the option to choose…
>> 
>> The problem is that Pharo is different from other systems. When you install 
>> eclipse, you'll use the installed eclipse for all your projects for a long 
>> time.
>> 
>> Pharo images are more like a "disposable". You'll not use the same Pharo 
>> image for multiple big projects and you'll more easily throw away an image 
>> to take a new one from time to time. 
>> 
>> Actually I think I download and delete around 5 images/day sometime. 
> 
> IMO this just strengthen Marcus argument :)
> 
>> This complicate a little things because sometime you want to directly 
>> download one image. Sometime you want to have one application to manage your 
>> images (Pharo launcher) 
> 
> Why? You have launcher: you download all images you want (btw… I still 
> believe launcher UI needs love, but one thing at a time ;) )
> And if you need more complex stuff, you always have the “other” section. 
> 
> but I side with Marcus here: we need ONE blessed way of manage pharo, 
> otherwise is an un-managable mess.
> 
> cheers, 
> Esteban
> 
> ps: btw, we’ll need also 
> - OBS for the launcher (to have linux packaging)
> - signing the launcher on mac (we already did this for the VM, we can do the 
> same for launcher). And distribute it as dmg, not zip (a dmg is just a zip 
> renamed so no problem here).
> - a windows installer
> 
and I would love support for this: https://sparkle-project.org 
 to keep the “Pharo” app always up-to-date.

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Esteban Lorenzano]

> On 15 Mar 2018, at 00:08, Cyril Ferlicot  wrote:
> 
> 
> On mer. 14 mars 2018 at 18:18, Marcus Denker  > wrote:
> 
> 
> > On 9 Mar 2018, at 23:34, Torsten Bergmann  > > wrote:
> >
> > Additional portable versions would be nice too (based on a simple ZIP) 
> > instead of only the installable apps
> >
> 
> Is there a deeper reason for this? If I look at “other systems”, they manage 
> to have *one* download, *one* way of installing.
> For me, offering *a lot* of possible different ways means that the user has 
> to choose without knowing why there is even the option to choose…
> 
> The problem is that Pharo is different from other systems. When you install 
> eclipse, you'll use the installed eclipse for all your projects for a long 
> time.
> 
> Pharo images are more like a "disposable". You'll not use the same Pharo 
> image for multiple big projects and you'll more easily throw away an image to 
> take a new one from time to time. 
> 
> Actually I think I download and delete around 5 images/day sometime. 

IMO this just strengthen Marcus argument :)

> This complicate a little things because sometime you want to directly 
> download one image. Sometime you want to have one application to manage your 
> images (Pharo launcher) 

Why? You have launcher: you download all images you want (btw… I still believe 
launcher UI needs love, but one thing at a time ;) )
And if you need more complex stuff, you always have the “other” section. 

but I side with Marcus here: we need ONE blessed way of manage pharo, otherwise 
is an un-managable mess.

cheers, 
Esteban

ps: btw, we’ll need also 
- OBS for the launcher (to have linux packaging)
- signing the launcher on mac (we already did this for the VM, we can do the 
same for launcher). And distribute it as dmg, not zip (a dmg is just a zip 
renamed so no problem here).
- a windows installer

pps: we are taking volunteers to tackle this stuff ;)

> 
> 
> 
> Marcus
> -- 
> Cyril Ferlicot
> https://ferlicot.fr 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Marcus Denker]

> On 15 Mar 2018, at 00:08, Cyril Ferlicot  wrote:
> 
> 
> On mer. 14 mars 2018 at 18:18, Marcus Denker  > wrote:
> 
> 
> > On 9 Mar 2018, at 23:34, Torsten Bergmann  > > wrote:
> >
> > Additional portable versions would be nice too (based on a simple ZIP) 
> > instead of only the installable apps
> >
> 
> Is there a deeper reason for this? If I look at “other systems”, they manage 
> to have *one* download, *one* way of installing.
> For me, offering *a lot* of possible different ways means that the user has 
> to choose without knowing why there is even the option to choose…
> 
> The problem is that Pharo is different from other systems. When you install 
> eclipse, you'll use the installed eclipse for all your projects for a long 
> time.
> 
> Pharo images are more like a "disposable". You'll not use the same Pharo 
> image for multiple big projects and you'll more easily throw away an image to 
> take a new one from time to time. 
> 
> Actually I think I download and delete around 5 images/day sometime. 
> 
> This complicate a little things because sometime you want to directly 
> download one image. Sometime you want to have one application to manage your 
> images (Pharo launcher) 
> 
For me, the Launcher should be the “VM Download”, that comes with a) a default 
template image of the release and b) the launcher too to discover images.

*But* it should be done in a way that you can of course just download more 
images (and I would love to have images actually being “one file”) and, having 
Pharo installed, you can run them, using the “Pharo” that you have installed 
(the launcher).

The “Launcher” should feel more like “I have installed Pharo, now I can run 
images”.

As such, I think we should add back links that point to single image downloads 
on the download page.

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Stephan Eggermont]

Marcus Denker  wrote:
>> On 9 Mar 2018, at 23:34, Torsten Bergmann  wrote:
>> 
>> Additional portable versions would be nice too (based on a simple ZIP)
>> instead of only the installable apps
>> 
> 
> Is there a deeper reason for this? If I look at “other systems”, they
> manage to have *one* download, *one* way of installing.
> For me, offering *a lot* of possible different ways means that the user
> has to choose without knowing why there is even the option to choose…

Yes. I want the live usb stick experience

Stephan

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Cyril Ferlicot]

On mer. 14 mars 2018 at 18:18, Marcus Denker  wrote:

>
>
> > On 9 Mar 2018, at 23:34, Torsten Bergmann  wrote:
> >
> > Additional portable versions would be nice too (based on a simple ZIP)
> instead of only the installable apps
> >
>
> Is there a deeper reason for this? If I look at “other systems”, they
> manage to have *one* download, *one* way of installing.
> For me, offering *a lot* of possible different ways means that the user
> has to choose without knowing why there is even the option to choose…
>

The problem is that Pharo is different from other systems. When you install
eclipse, you'll use the installed eclipse for all your projects for a long
time.

Pharo images are more like a "disposable". You'll not use the same Pharo
image for multiple big projects and you'll more easily throw away an image
to take a new one from time to time.

Actually I think I download and delete around 5 images/day sometime.

This complicate a little things because sometime you want to directly
download one image. Sometime you want to have one application to manage
your images (Pharo launcher)



> Marcus
>
-- 
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Marcus Denker]

Ok, I will fix that in the next pass.

> On 9 Mar 2018, at 18:10, Sean P. DeNigris  wrote:
> 
> Marcus Denker-4 wrote
>> comments welcome… 
> 
> IHMO the structure is a little confusing because the first heading "Usage"
> (Launcher implied) is on the same level as other methods like "Linux
> Packages". I think there needs to be something like a header one level
> higher like "Other Options" between these two sections.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Marcus Denker]

> On 9 Mar 2018, at 23:34, Torsten Bergmann  wrote:
> 
> Additional portable versions would be nice too (based on a simple ZIP) 
> instead of only the installable apps
> 

Is there a deeper reason for this? If I look at “other systems”, they manage to 
have *one* download, *one* way of installing.
For me, offering *a lot* of possible different ways means that the user has to 
choose without knowing why there is even the option to choose…

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Torsten Bergmann]

Additional portable versions would be nice too (based on a simple ZIP) instead 
of only the installable apps

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Sean P. DeNigris]

Marcus Denker-4 wrote
> comments welcome… 

IHMO the structure is a little confusing because the first heading "Usage"
(Launcher implied) is on the same level as other methods like "Linux
Packages". I think there needs to be something like a header one level
higher like "Other Options" between these two sections.



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Marcus Denker]

> On 9 Mar 2018, at 14:01, Marcus Denker  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 9 Mar 2018, at 13:58, Cyril Ferlicot  wrote:
>> 
>> On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Marcus Denker  wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> With Christoph we did a version of the download page that points users to
>>> the “Pharo Launcher” instead of the zips that just contained one vm and the
>>> last image.
>>> 
>>> http://pharo.org/download
>>> 
>>> comments welcome…
>>> 
>> Hi!
>> I am totally in favour of referencing Pharo Launcher in the Pharo
>> download page, but I'm not sure it should totally replace the old
>> page.
>> In my opinion, it would be good to have both.
> 
> The problem is that things are getting *very* complex, and every new way to 
> download Pharo makes things even more complex…
> 
> I really do not know how to structure that page if the launcher is added as 
> yet another way.

Of course Linux package I kept (they are in the Linux Package section).

What do you miss? The .zip files that have vm+sources+image? 

I think the launcher replaces the “this is the easiest download” aka the .zip 
files.

For the “single downloads” (point the the last vm, the last image), maybe 
adding that section back is needed… 

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Marcus Denker]

> On 9 Mar 2018, at 13:58, Cyril Ferlicot  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Marcus Denker  wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> With Christoph we did a version of the download page that points users to
>> the “Pharo Launcher” instead of the zips that just contained one vm and the
>> last image.
>> 
>> http://pharo.org/download
>> 
>> comments welcome…
>> 
> Hi!
> I am totally in favour of referencing Pharo Launcher in the Pharo
> download page, but I'm not sure it should totally replace the old
> page.
> In my opinion, it would be good to have both.

The problem is that things are getting *very* complex, and every new way to 
download Pharo makes things even more complex…

I really do not know how to structure that page if the launcher is added as yet 
another way.

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-dev] Experiment: New Download page based on Pharo Launcher

[Cyril Ferlicot]

On Fri, Mar 9, 2018 at 1:53 PM, Marcus Denker  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> With Christoph we did a version of the download page that points users to
> the “Pharo Launcher” instead of the zips that just contained one vm and the
> last image.
>
> http://pharo.org/download
>
> comments welcome…
>
Hi!
I am totally in favour of referencing Pharo Launcher in the Pharo
download page, but I'm not sure it should totally replace the old
page.
In my opinion, it would be good to have both.

> Marcus

-- 
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr