Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
Sterling Hughes wrote: In what country can you walk onto the floor of the congress (parliament) without sponsorship? OTOH in which country do you *trust* your parliament? -- Six Offene Systeme GmbH http://www.six.de/ i.A. Hartmut Holzgraefe Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel.: +49-711-99091-77 Sie finden uns auf der CeBIT in Halle 6/H44 http://www.six.de/cebit2003/ -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Jani Taskinen wrote: Of about 20 emails today, 6 were posted to wrong mailing list. And one of those generated a 5 email thread about not posting to wrong mailing list. (counting this one :) So I suggest we finally make this list MODERATED. +1 Derick -- my other box is your windows PC - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
I think this is just a bad day :) Andrey - Original Message - From: Jani Taskinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 6:59 PM Subject: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV Of about 20 emails today, 6 were posted to wrong mailing list. And one of those generated a 5 email thread about not posting to wrong mailing list. (counting this one :) So I suggest we finally make this list MODERATED. --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Jani Taskinen wrote: Of about 20 emails today, 6 were posted to wrong mailing list. And one of those generated a 5 email thread about not posting to wrong mailing list. (counting this one :) So I suggest we finally make this list MODERATED. -1. The list could be renamed so that it is less confusing for newbie PHP developers. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 2003-03-12 at 12:01, Derick Rethans wrote: On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Jani Taskinen wrote: Of about 20 emails today, 6 were posted to wrong mailing list. And one of those generated a 5 email thread about not posting to wrong mailing list. (counting this one :) So I suggest we finally make this list MODERATED. +1 +1. People who say that important messages will get lost: they already do. Many people can't hear over the din. I'm more worried about the 25% of developer mail that gets lost than the 1% of useful user mail that might get lost. -Sterling Derick -- my other box is your windows PC - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- Science is like sex: sometimes something useful comes out, but that is not the reason we are doing it. - Richard Feynman -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
It was a 7 hour period. And not only today, this happens daily. (maybe not in this scale) For me, even 1 OT email is too much. (But it's propably just me, who is stupid enough to read EVERY email coming here.) --Jani On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Andrey Hristov wrote: I think this is just a bad day :) Andrey - Original Message - From: Jani Taskinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 6:59 PM Subject: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV Of about 20 emails today, 6 were posted to wrong mailing list. And one of those generated a 5 email thread about not posting to wrong mailing list. (counting this one :) So I suggest we finally make this list MODERATED. --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- - For Sale! - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
| -1. | | The list could be renamed so that it is less confusing for | newbie PHP developers. | | - Sascha I agree. Brian. dealnews.com -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
Okay Jani, I also read every mail here but a non-related to this mail is easily recognizable in 2-3 secs. Most time loses Derick who answers (thanks). May be the change of the list name is good idea. Andrey - Original Message - From: Jani Taskinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Andrey Hristov [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV It was a 7 hour period. And not only today, this happens daily. (maybe not in this scale) For me, even 1 OT email is too much. (But it's propably just me, who is stupid enough to read EVERY email coming here.) --Jani On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Andrey Hristov wrote: I think this is just a bad day :) Andrey - Original Message - From: Jani Taskinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 6:59 PM Subject: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV Of about 20 emails today, 6 were posted to wrong mailing list. And one of those generated a 5 email thread about not posting to wrong mailing list. (counting this one :) So I suggest we finally make this list MODERATED. --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- - For Sale! - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Andrey Hristov wrote: Okay Jani, I also read every mail here but a non-related to this mail is easily recognizable in 2-3 secs. Whatever. It's still noise. Most time loses Derick who answers (thanks). Yeah, as I don't bother replying to those. :) May be the change of the list name is good idea. For a day or two? :) --Jani Andrey - Original Message - From: Jani Taskinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Andrey Hristov [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 7:07 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV It was a 7 hour period. And not only today, this happens daily. (maybe not in this scale) For me, even 1 OT email is too much. (But it's propably just me, who is stupid enough to read EVERY email coming here.) --Jani On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Andrey Hristov wrote: I think this is just a bad day :) Andrey - Original Message - From: Jani Taskinen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 6:59 PM Subject: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV Of about 20 emails today, 6 were posted to wrong mailing list. And one of those generated a 5 email thread about not posting to wrong mailing list. (counting this one :) So I suggest we finally make this list MODERATED. --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- - For Sale! - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- - For Sale! - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Sascha Schumann wrote: The list could be renamed so that it is less confusing for newbie PHP developers. What is confusing with this description? Internals list A medium volume list for those who want to help out with the development of PHP (from http://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php) if even that description doesn't work, then nothing would work, not even changing the name. Derick -- my other box is your windows PC - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Jani Taskinen wrote: It was a 7 hour period. And not only today, this happens daily. (maybe not in this scale) For me, even 1 OT email is too much. (But it's propably just me, who is stupid enough to read EVERY email coming here.) I'm so stupid too then :) Derick -- my other box is your windows PC - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
if even that description doesn't work, then nothing would work, not even changing the name. Well, it is obvious that some folks don't read that description and simply move forward, because php-dev sounds about right. They are PHP developers and so a list called php-dev makes absolute sense to them. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wednesday, March 12, 2003 12:41 PM, Derick Rethans wrote: On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Sascha Schumann wrote: The list could be renamed so that it is less confusing for newbie PHP developers. What is confusing with this description? Internals list A medium volume list for those who want to help out with the development of PHP (from http://www.php.net/mailing-lists.php) if even that description doesn't work, then nothing would work, not even changing the name. For people who are not great English speakers, there's not much difference between help out with the development of PHP and help with development in PHP. This may not be exactly the correct description, but what about something like: A medium volume list for those who are working on the PHP engine and internals in C and C++. FWIW, I think changing the name would help too. But I'm not the one diligently replying to all the people who incorrectly post to php-dev. :) -dave -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Sascha Schumann wrote: if even that description doesn't work, then nothing would work, not even changing the name. Well, it is obvious that some folks don't read that description and simply move forward, because php-dev sounds about right. They are PHP developers and so a list called php-dev makes absolute sense to them. Let's ask the mysql guys, they did change the name too. (I think that we atleast agree that the noise is annoying, right?) Derick -- my other box is your windows PC - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
php-dev-team might lose a few.. - Original Message - From: Sascha Schumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Derick Rethans [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Jani Taskinen [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 5:46 PM Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV if even that description doesn't work, then nothing would work, not even changing the name. Well, it is obvious that some folks don't read that description and simply move forward, because php-dev sounds about right. They are PHP developers and so a list called php-dev makes absolute sense to them. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
Let's ask the mysql guys, they did change the name too. (I think that we atleast agree that the noise is annoying, right?) Not really. Maybe I'm more used to skipping noise. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
Hi, Derick Rethans wrote: On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Sascha Schumann wrote: if even that description doesn't work, then nothing would work, not even changing the name. Well, it is obvious that some folks don't read that description and simply move forward, because php-dev sounds about right. They are PHP developers and so a list called php-dev makes absolute sense to them. Let's ask the mysql guys, they did change the name too. (I think that we +1 for changing the name, to something like php-internal bye, -- --- - Michael Bretterklieber- [EMAIL PROTECTED] JAWA Management Software GmbH - http://www.jawa.at Liebenauer Hauptstr. 200-- privat --- A-8041 GRAZ GSM: ++43-(0)676-93 96 698 Tel: ++43-(0)316-403274-12 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fax: ++43-(0)316-403274-10 http://www.bretterklieber.com --- - ...the number of UNIX installations has grown to 10, with more expected... - Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson, June 1972 -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
Sascha Schumann wrote: if even that description doesn't work, then nothing would work, not even changing the name. Well, it is obvious that some folks don't read that description and simply move forward, because php-dev sounds about right. They are PHP developers and so a list called php-dev makes absolute sense to them. - Sascha A couple thoughts Aside from renaming the php-dev list, we should remove the 'PHP and Zend Engine internals lists' from the regular mailing list page, put them in a 'developers' section (name isn't important) that describes cvs access, dev email lists, how to build (ie. win32 libraries), etc. That way it is completely removed from the regular stuff that normal php users will gravitate towards. It would help to clarify what is for the php community at large, and what is for the community of developers that work on php itself. Then another item that might be considered if it is not already done, allowing posts only from those that have cvs access. A second conditional list of allowed posters can be added that are people who do not have cvs access, but we want to allow to post. Otherwise, the list can be readable by all. A post rejected message could tell them to try a different email list, but if they really feel the email is for the dev list, send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and it will be reviewed by someone when they get the time. Shane -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Shane Caraveo wrote: Aside from renaming the php-dev list, we should remove the 'PHP and Zend Engine internals lists' from the regular mailing list page, put them in a 'developers' section (name isn't important) that describes cvs access, dev email lists, how to build (ie. win32 libraries), etc. That way it is completely removed from the regular stuff that normal php users will gravitate towards. It would help to clarify what is for the php community at large, and what is for the community of developers that work on php itself. Then another item that might be considered if it is not already done, allowing posts only from those that have cvs access. A second conditional list of allowed posters can be added that are people who do not have cvs access, but we want to allow to post. Otherwise, the list can be readable by all. A post rejected message could tell them to try a different email list, but if they really feel the email is for the dev list, send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and it will be reviewed by someone when they get the time. Good thinking, sounds better than moderating, as that will only waste time for moderators. Derick -- my other box is your windows PC - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
A couple thoughts Aside from renaming the php-dev list, we should remove the 'PHP and Zend Engine internals lists' from the regular mailing list page, put them in a 'developers' section (name isn't important) that describes cvs access, dev email lists, how to build (ie. win32 libraries), etc. That way it is completely removed from the regular stuff that normal php users will gravitate towards. It would help to clarify what is for the php community at large, and what is for the community of developers that work on php itself. Seriously good idea. Then another item that might be considered if it is not already done, allowing posts only from those that have cvs access. A second conditional list of allowed posters can be added that are people who do not have cvs access, but we want to allow to post. Otherwise, the list can be readable by all. A post rejected message could tell them to try a different email list, but if they really feel the email is for the dev list, send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and it will be reviewed by someone when they get the time. Less good idea. Open source needs open access. Shane -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
Aside from renaming the php-dev list, we should remove the 'PHP and Zend [snip] Sounds good. Then another item that might be considered if it is not already done, allowing posts only from those that have cvs access. A second conditional list of allowed posters can be added that are people who do not have cvs access, but we want to allow to post. Otherwise, the list can be readable by all. A post rejected message could tell them to try a different email list, but if they really feel the email is for the dev list, send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and This however sounds too restrictive to me. I'm convinced that the main php development list should stay as open as possible. The issue of a few misdirected emails should not serve as an excuse for closing down the main development list. We should not become an ivory tower. it will be reviewed by someone when they get the time. This manual review effectively implies censorship which is undesirable in an open environment. I doubt it would serve the PHP community in any way. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
I propose a rename to php.c-internals.dev This leaves no confusion, it is about developing in C and C++ the language of PHP. I think restricting to those with cvs accounts is not the best solution. It excludes first-time users who have a useful patch from posting a message. Regards, Greg -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
Then another item that might be considered if it is not already done, allowing posts only from those that have cvs access. A second conditional list of allowed posters can be added that are people who do not have cvs access, but we want to allow to post. Otherwise, the list can be readable by all. A post rejected message could tell them to try a different email list, but if they really feel the email is for the dev list, send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and This however sounds too restrictive to me. I'm convinced that the main php development list should stay as open as possible. The issue of a few misdirected emails should not serve as an excuse for closing down the main development list. We should not become an ivory tower. Yes, because getting a cvs account is just *s* hard. We are more an Ivory tower now, than we would be under the proposed systems. Currently, unless someone points me elsewhere I only read messages from PHP core devs. I don't have the time or the energy to filter through the noise. Most other developers do this, being overburdened with the crap ratio makes me put up a wall. If this list was moderated, ie, less noise, more thoughtful comments, most people would probably be able to read a lot more messages. An Ivory tower implies a system dictated by an external force (wealth, for example), not one dictated by merit. The roundtable is reserved to those who have earned it. it will be reviewed by someone when they get the time. This manual review effectively implies censorship which is undesirable in an open environment. I doubt it would serve the PHP community in any way. It doesn't. They are free to send the mail to whomever they like, even put up a website with their ideas. They are not censured, they are restricted. In what country can you walk onto the floor of the congress (parliament) without sponsorship? Entirely open infrastructures are great when the community is small/growing, but when the community is this size, we need to be pragmatic and not lose the forest for the trees. -Sterling - Sascha -- Programming today is a race between software engineers stirring to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the universe is winning. - Unknown -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 2003-03-12 at 12:50, Sascha Schumann wrote: Let's ask the mysql guys, they did change the name too. (I think that we atleast agree that the noise is annoying, right?) Not really. Maybe I'm more used to skipping noise. *exactly* my point btw. We skip noise, skip noise, skip noise, miss important message, skip noise, skip noise. :) -Sterling - Sascha -- Science is like sex: sometimes something useful comes out, but that is not the reason we are doing it. - Richard Feynman -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
At 18:50 12.03.2003, Steph wrote: php-dev-team might lose a few.. ...think f..ing hard..read.oh php-dev-team...thinkCOOL, they solve my problem, i'm getting better at it and finally a team member COOL what ever name we give this list draws attention to newbies as long as it contains the letters P, H and P again in this particular order. I think Shane got the solutionfollow up there marcus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Sterling Hughes wrote: It doesn't. They are free to send the mail to whomever they like, even put up a website with their ideas. They are not censured, they are restricted. In what country can you walk onto the floor of the congress (parliament) without sponsorship? Entirely open infrastructures are great when the community is small/growing, but when the community is this size, we need to be pragmatic and not lose the forest for the trees. Amen. +1. -Andrei http://www.gravitonic.com/ I still find each day too short for all the thoughts I want to think, all the walks I want to take, all the books I want to read, and all the friends I want to see. -John Burroughs -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
A couple thoughts Aside from renaming the php-dev list, we should remove the 'PHP and Zend Engine internals lists' from the regular mailing list page, put them in a 'developers' section (name isn't important) that describes cvs access, dev email lists, how to build (ie. win32 libraries), etc. I guess this is the solution! Then another item that might be considered if it is not already done, allowing posts only from those that have cvs access. Hm, i don't know. I for one directly contacted rasmus as he was the developer mentioned in the sources in which i found and corrected errors when i started working here. However i guess not all of us started this way, did we? A second conditional list of allowed posters can be added that are people who do not have cvs access, but we want to allow to post. That would be a minimum requirenment Otherwise, the list can be readable by all. Dito. A post rejected message could tell them to try a different email list, but if they really feel the email is for the dev list I already did this proposal but it was declined... , send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and it will be reviewed by someone when they get the time. Round robin list? Everyone in php-dev has to take care for some days? regards marcus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
So how about a first post response system, similar to the subscription response. That first post would not actually be posted to the email list, but rather an email would be sent back to the poster stating the purpose of the email list, and what kind of materials are expected on the list. If the post does not match this criteria, please send it to on of the other lists, otherwise respond to this email and your original message will go out. Shane +1 (if it matters), that's much more like it :) -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 10:47:27 -0800 Shane Caraveo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So how about a first post response system, similar to the subscription response. That first post would not actually be posted to the email list, but rather an email would be sent back to the poster stating the purpose of the email list, and what kind of materials are expected on the list. If the post does not match this criteria, please send it to on of the other lists, otherwise respond to this email and your original message will go out. And they would probably not read it, just read the part how to get the email to the list. They don't read the comment what purpose this list have, so they will probably not read the mail either. / Magnus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Magnus [ISO-8859-1] M ![ISO-8859-1] gnus X^B wrote: On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 10:47:27 -0800 Shane Caraveo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So how about a first post response system, similar to the subscription response. That first post would not actually be posted to the email list, but rather an email would be sent back to the poster stating the purpose of the email list, and what kind of materials are expected on the list. If the post does not match this criteria, please send it to on of the other lists, otherwise respond to this email and your original message will go out. And they would probably not read it, just read the part how to get the email to the list. They don't read the comment what purpose this list have, so they will probably not read the mail either. I think he's right with this... Derick -- my other box is your windows PC - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
This worries me somewhat. I do not have a CVS account. I do not actively develop and contribute to the PHP sourcecode right now, however my company uses php very very much. I would like to keep up to date on what is happening with the development team and figuring out what directions they are leaning and why. And if I want to contribute code down the road, I would like to be able to. So, I don't have a cvs account right now, and I don't need one, but if it were required to be on the list, then I would not be able to be on the list. I'd appreciate not having that requirement myself. Wes On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 01:53 PM, Marcus Börger wrote: A couple thoughts Aside from renaming the php-dev list, we should remove the 'PHP and Zend Engine internals lists' from the regular mailing list page, put them in a 'developers' section (name isn't important) that describes cvs access, dev email lists, how to build (ie. win32 libraries), etc. I guess this is the solution! Then another item that might be considered if it is not already done, allowing posts only from those that have cvs access. Hm, i don't know. I for one directly contacted rasmus as he was the developer mentioned in the sources in which i found and corrected errors when i started working here. However i guess not all of us started this way, did we? A second conditional list of allowed posters can be added that are people who do not have cvs access, but we want to allow to post. That would be a minimum requirenment Otherwise, the list can be readable by all. Dito. A post rejected message could tell them to try a different email list, but if they really feel the email is for the dev list I already did this proposal but it was declined... , send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and it will be reviewed by someone when they get the time. Round robin list? Everyone in php-dev has to take care for some days? regards marcus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
snip If the post does not match this criteria, please send it to on of the other lists, otherwise respond to this email and your original message will go out. And they would probably not read it, just read the part how to get the email to the list. They don't read the comment what purpose this list have, so they will probably not read the mail either. Not so, or everyone would be writing back to php-dev _after_ Derick (generally) told them otherwise.. It's not done maliciously, on the whole :) -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 2003-03-12 at 14:00, Weston Houghton wrote: This worries me somewhat. I do not have a CVS account. I do not actively develop and contribute to the PHP sourcecode right now, however my company uses php very very much. I would like to keep up to date on what is happening with the development team and figuring out what directions they are leaning and why. And if I want to contribute code down the road, I would like to be able to. So, I don't have a cvs account right now, and I don't need one, but if it were required to be on the list, then I would not be able to be on the list. I'd appreciate not having that requirement myself. You could be on a list of pre-allowed posters. also note, this is only a write requirement, reading is completely free. -Sterling Wes On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 01:53 PM, Marcus Börger wrote: A couple thoughts Aside from renaming the php-dev list, we should remove the 'PHP and Zend Engine internals lists' from the regular mailing list page, put them in a 'developers' section (name isn't important) that describes cvs access, dev email lists, how to build (ie. win32 libraries), etc. I guess this is the solution! Then another item that might be considered if it is not already done, allowing posts only from those that have cvs access. Hm, i don't know. I for one directly contacted rasmus as he was the developer mentioned in the sources in which i found and corrected errors when i started working here. However i guess not all of us started this way, did we? A second conditional list of allowed posters can be added that are people who do not have cvs access, but we want to allow to post. That would be a minimum requirenment Otherwise, the list can be readable by all. Dito. A post rejected message could tell them to try a different email list, but if they really feel the email is for the dev list I already did this proposal but it was declined... , send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and it will be reviewed by someone when they get the time. Round robin list? Everyone in php-dev has to take care for some days? regards marcus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg. - Bjarne Stroustrup -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
This worries me somewhat. I do not have a CVS account. I do not actively develop and contribute to the PHP sourcecode right now, however my company uses php very very much. I would like to keep up to date on what is happening with the development team and figuring out what directions they are leaning and why. And if I want to contribute code down the road, I would like to be able to. So, I don't have a cvs account right now, and I don't need one, but if it were required to be on the list, then I would not be able to be on the list. I'd appreciate not having that requirement myself. AFAIK it is meant only for sending mail to the list not about reading it. The idea is to lower the unrelated messages. This will be good even for you because they are unrelated to this list. Andrey -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
A secondary followup, as I do work on php extensions, I do think that questions regarding those would fall to this list, but again might not require a cvs account? Just playing Devil's Advocate to some extent here. Wes On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, at 01:45 PM, Sterling Hughes wrote: On Wed, 2003-03-12 at 14:00, Weston Houghton wrote: This worries me somewhat. I do not have a CVS account. I do not actively develop and contribute to the PHP sourcecode right now, however my company uses php very very much. I would like to keep up to date on what is happening with the development team and figuring out what directions they are leaning and why. And if I want to contribute code down the road, I would like to be able to. So, I don't have a cvs account right now, and I don't need one, but if it were required to be on the list, then I would not be able to be on the list. I'd appreciate not having that requirement myself. You could be on a list of pre-allowed posters. also note, this is only a write requirement, reading is completely free. -Sterling -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
Shane Caraveo wrote: Then another item that might be considered if it is not already done, allowing posts only from those that have cvs access. A second conditional list of allowed posters can be added that are people who do not have cvs access, but we want to allow to post. Otherwise, the list can be readable by all. A post rejected message could tell them to try a different email list, but if they really feel the email is for the dev list, send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and it will be reviewed by someone when they get the time. I think there are a lot of members like myself who watch this list and on some occasions post a new note or followup to one of the main members comments. But without any CVS access. Having us ask for special permission or send posts through a special moderator seems a little heavy handed to me. Brian -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
Yes, because getting a cvs account is just *s* hard. The problem is that you easily lose valuable postings when you force people to go through some restrictive system. I'm especially worried about inter-group communication. E.g. where php-dev is involved in a discussion with another group of people. If some developer list tries to protect itself from my input, I usually don't bother to jump through hoops. This happened just recently with group@ and the ASF board where some messages got stuck in a filter. Currently, unless someone points me elsewhere I only read messages from PHP core devs. You must be kidding. There are 20-30 emails on php-dev on normal days. That hardly makes up 10% of my personal email traffic. The volume is quite negligible from my POV. Let's implement the renaming and Shane's two section thing first before we evaluate more draconic measures. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Shane Caraveo wrote: But for the sake of writing...here's another idea. So how about a first post response system, similar to the subscription response. That first post would not actually be posted to the email list, but rather an email would be sent back to the poster stating the purpose of the email list, and what kind of materials are expected on the list. If the post does not match this criteria, please send it to on of the other lists, otherwise respond to this email and your original message will go out. Instead of this it might be a better idea to make somebody's first post moderated, after it has been approved the poster is added to the allow list, if not he gets back a message like I copypaste everytime now :) If they are not approved, and they repost... they just nobody replies to the Moderator request. You then solve: a. people not reading the reply to the first post and just repost again b. people who are contributing stuff dont need to repost their mail, or do other tricks to get their stuff posted c. there is much less to moderate You lose: a. nothing :) Derick -- my other box is your windows PC - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
At 20:00 12.03.2003, Weston Houghton wrote: This worries me somewhat. I do not have a CVS account. I do not actively develop and contribute to the PHP sourcecode right now, however my company uses php very very much. I would like to keep up to date on what is happening with the development team and figuring out what directions they are leaning and why. And if I want to contribute code down the road, I would like to be able to. So, I don't have a cvs account right now, and I don't need one, but if it were required to be on the list, then I would not be able to be on the list. I'd appreciate not having that requirement myself. Wes We must not loose contact to those delivering ideas and patches. But loosing all this noise is a good idea! So to you Wes, it is good to have readers like you! However we all spend to much time reading noise. regards marcus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
You lose: You lose time for implementing and maintaining this system, and you lose time for moderating emails. You also reduce the incentive to contribute. Again, let's take the less intrusive steps first and leave the heavy handed ones as a last resort. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Sascha Schumann wrote: You lose: You lose time for implementing and maintaining this system, and you lose time for moderating emails. You also reduce the incentive to contribute. I lose time to reply to them now too and copy and pasting my stuff, I lose less time by just pressing r y y Ctrl-X y, so you win here. Derick -- my other box is your windows PC - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 20:14:03 +0100 (CET) Derick Rethans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Instead of this it might be a better idea to make somebody's first post moderated, after it has been approved the poster is added to the allow list, if not he gets back a message like I copypaste everytime now :) If they are not approved, and they repost... they just nobody replies to the Moderator request. You then solve: a. people not reading the reply to the first post and just repost again b. people who are contributing stuff dont need to repost their mail, or do other tricks to get their stuff posted c. there is much less to moderate You lose: a. nothing :) That sounds better.. / Magnus ps. No need to cc me =) -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
We'll see who reads this, any responses are welcome. I see a few different issues here: 1) People who want answers for a php-general message post it to the development forum. This is clearly because they do not understand the difference, as I doubt anyone wants to waste their own time posting a message to a forum that refuses to answer the question. 2) Those who know exactly what this forum is for, and for whatever reason the core team doesn't want or otherwise consider their contributions to the discussion. Something like Catchable parse errors, maybe? :) I agree with the opinion that more clearly defining what exactly this list is for will solve issue #1, however #2 is what I think is the real problem here (isn't it?) I don't see the point in pulling punches when it comes to why the core developers want to moderate the list.. I don't claim to have the end-all answer to this problem, but I know that many people who sign on this list probably fall into one of the following: A) They are simplying following along in discussions because they need to or are curious what is in store for the future B) They are truly interested in contributing real things, but aren't as experienced with the internals of PHP/Zend as the core team so their suggestions / code is insufficient to meet the stanards set by the core team. C) The core team or other signficiant contributors. This might not be a complete list, but things like this never are. In any case, moderating this list would end up completely alientating everyone but those who are significant developers. How does one become a significant developer at that point? People who are learning will always ask questions that can be considered stupid by someone more experienced... Unless someone who is experienced is around to answer them and respond to this noise, how will anyone learn? Maybe I'm completely off-track here, but it's just a thought where I could take a moment to make fun of my own idea. :) John -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 15:31:56 -0500, John Coggeshall wrote: In any case, moderating this list would end up completely alientating everyone but those who are significant developers. I agree, I think changing the name is the way to go, and to remove it from the public mailing lists (or put it under another category) Don't forget that mailing lists is not the whole problem, many also use news groups :) php.internal php.coredev or something like that Personally I just lurk here :) -- Tom Sommer, denmark www.tsn.dk - www.dreamcoder.dk -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Sascha Schumann wrote: Yes, because getting a cvs account is just *s* hard. The problem is that you easily lose valuable postings when you force people to go through some restrictive system. I'm especially worried about inter-group communication. E.g. where php-dev is involved in a discussion with another group of people. If some developer list tries to protect itself from my input, I usually don't bother to jump through hoops. This happened just recently with group@ and the ASF board where some messages got stuck in a filter. Currently, unless someone points me elsewhere I only read messages from PHP core devs. You must be kidding. There are 20-30 emails on php-dev on normal days. That hardly makes up 10% of my personal email traffic. The volume is quite negligible from my POV. Let's implement the renaming and Shane's two section thing first before we evaluate more draconic measures. I agree, it's worth looking into more subtle and less controversial changes. Change the name, clarify its use (ex. move dev list signup..), and see what happens. Regards, Philip -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wednesday 12 March 2003 17:59, Jani Taskinen wrote: Of about 20 emails today, 6 were posted to wrong mailing list. And one of those generated a 5 email thread about not posting to wrong mailing list. (counting this one :) So I suggest we finally make this list MODERATED. -1 I like the mysql ml-model: a) internals@ for communication between users and developers b) a closed list for internal communication between php.net developers. Optionally trusted users can be added. Regards Georg P.S: Also removing mail addresses in files/credits/maintainer would be ok for me, to stop the dozens of priv mails with stupid mysql questions. -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
Aside from renaming the php-dev list, we should remove the 'PHP and Zend Engine internals lists' from the regular mailing list page, put them in a 'developers' section (name isn't important) that describes cvs access, dev email lists, how to build (ie. win32 libraries), etc. As a newbie commiter, still wet behind the ears, I would have *really* appreciated a page that was a little clearer and a bit more up to date than what I started with. My sources of information README.CVS-RULES, the building from cvs web page) were very good, but missed some vital clues. While many have been very patient with me (thanks), I found it frustrating to ask questions that seem to be obvious to others like: * trying to build php4 head for two days, only to be told that I should be building PHP_4_3 or php5 head. * forgetting about re2c, which is not mentioned anywhere that I could find, but I found through freshmeat and had a lovely time trying to build :-) I am taking note of the problems I encountered and was planning on updating something (README.CVS-RULES ?) after another week or so. Dave -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
This discussion itself is creating more spam than those emails people send. I agree with Sascha that we shouldn't take drastic measures. We still want to make it easy for people to join the PHP developer's community. I think the most interesting idea so far was Shane's first post response system. We have all of the necessary infra-structure ready. Hopefully we can reach an agreement ASAP because I can't handle all of these emails anymore :) Andi -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
After reading all the comments, I came to conclusion that we will do the following compromise: 1. Rename the list to php-group 2. Separate the list entries in mailing-lists.php [DONE!] 3. Apply the same system as is in use for our @php.net addresses for spam-protection, but have the message sent to people to tell them that where their message is going to go and what the list is about. (for the first message..) This all should be easy/fast to implement..afaik. :I (And it doesn't restrict anyone from still sending their support questions here, but at least would cut the amount a bit..) So who will rename the list and apply the spam protection thing? I already did the separation in mailing-lists.php.. --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
Jani, 1. Rename the list to php-group bad name for obvious reasons. Georg's suggestion of internals sounds ok to me. Or hackers from the FreeBSD community. 2. Separate the list entries in mailing-lists.php [DONE!] 3. Apply the same system as is in use for Let's evaluate the results of the first two items before going one step further. There is no need for haste. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Sascha Schumann wrote: Jani, 1. Rename the list to php-group bad name for obvious reasons. Georg's suggestion of internals sounds ok to me. Or hackers from the FreeBSD community. internals,hackers,whatever, as long as it's not php-dev. :) 2. Separate the list entries in mailing-lists.php [DONE!] 3. Apply the same system as is in use for Let's evaluate the results of the first two items before going one step further. There is no need for haste. I wouldn't consider 3rd one that drastic. It has worked very well for me, I haven't got any spam to my php.net addy, but people who really wanted to send me email got through.. --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
I wouldn't consider 3rd one that drastic. It has worked very well for me, I haven't got any spam to my php.net addy, but people who really wanted to send me email got through.. Well, maybe I am an exception, but I usually don't bother to register myself anywhere, unless there is a really good reason. Thus, the proposed measure increases the bar for contributions significantly. We don't lose anything by giving the first two items some time to prove their usefullness. On the other hand, it is very likely that we will lose useful input, if we implement the third item prematurely. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:44:20 +0200 (EET), Jani Taskinen wrote: 1. Rename the list to php-group And the newsgroup? since lots of the spam comes from NNTP directly, I would think(?) -- Tom Sommer, denmark www.tsn.dk - www.dreamcoder.dk -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Sascha Schumann wrote: I wouldn't consider 3rd one that drastic. It has worked very well for me, I haven't got any spam to my php.net addy, but people who really wanted to send me email got through.. Well, maybe I am an exception, but I usually don't bother to register myself anywhere, unless there is a really good reason. Thus, the proposed measure increases the bar for contributions significantly. If I remember correctly, this 'registration' is just replying to single email, as you do when you subscribe to the list. Not that big deal, IMO. :) We don't lose anything by giving the first two items some time to prove their usefullness. On the other hand, it is very likely that we will lose useful input, if we implement the third item prematurely. I can live with that. Let's see for couple of weeks how it works. --Jani -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
At 11:01 PM 3/12/2003 +0100, Sascha Schumann wrote: I wouldn't consider 3rd one that drastic. It has worked very well for me, I haven't got any spam to my php.net addy, but people who really wanted to send me email got through.. Well, maybe I am an exception, but I usually don't bother to register myself anywhere, unless there is a really good reason. Thus, the proposed measure increases the bar for contributions significantly. We don't lose anything by giving the first two items some time to prove their usefullness. On the other hand, it is very likely that we will lose useful input, if we implement the third item prematurely. I disagree. Anyone here can handle replying because we already have the anti-spam protection. The only thing we're doing is adding to the message an explanation of the post ethics. I wouldn't call this drastic at all. Andi -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
We don't lose anything by giving the first two items some time to prove their usefullness. On the other hand, it is very likely that we will lose useful input, if we implement the third item prematurely. I disagree. Anyone here can handle replying because we already have the anti-spam protection. The only thing we're doing is adding to the message an explanation of the post ethics. I wouldn't call this drastic at all. I am not overly confident that the system works though. The problem right now is that we have not been in any way tracking peoples' failed attempts to send something to the addresses currently protected by the system. It is only when a clueful person, like Dirk recently, persisted and emailed me privately with the 3 messages he had tried dilligently to get to us but ultimately failed, that we get a hint that something along the way didn't work. I have no idea if the problem was on our end or on Dirk's end. Dirk knows what the hell he is doing and he said he turned off any spam-catching filters and whatever else might have prevented him from getting the confirmation email he was supposed to reply to in order to verify his emails. Whatever the reason, the system didn't work for him, and who knows how many others it has failed for as well. Dirk was listed in the 'pending' stage meaning supposedly a confirmation email had been sent, but he said he never got it. There are many other addresses listed as pending. I'd like to get a better idea of what happened to Dirk's confirmation email and also whether the other people on the list received such an email. If we are going to deploy this on a much wider scale, before doing so someone has to volunteer to track how it is working currently so we have a sense of whether it works at all and under which circumstances it falls over. Blindly enabling what may or may not be a shaky solution on something as important as php-dev is a very bad idea. -Rasmus -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Thu, 13 Mar 2003, Andi Gutmans wrote: At 11:01 PM 3/12/2003 +0100, Sascha Schumann wrote: I wouldn't consider 3rd one that drastic. It has worked very well for me, I haven't got any spam to my php.net addy, but people who really wanted to send me email got through.. Well, maybe I am an exception, but I usually don't bother to register myself anywhere, unless there is a really good reason. Thus, the proposed measure increases the bar for contributions significantly. We don't lose anything by giving the first two items some time to prove their usefullness. On the other hand, it is very likely that we will lose useful input, if we implement the third item prematurely. I disagree. Anyone here can handle replying because we already have the anti-spam protection. The only thing we're doing is adding to the message an explanation of the post ethics. I wouldn't call this drastic at all. right... I concur Derick -- my other box is your windows PC - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Tom Sommer wrote: On Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:44:20 +0200 (EET), Jani Taskinen wrote: 1. Rename the list to php-group And the newsgroup? since lots of the spam comes from NNTP directly, I would think(?) Some does, but not a lot. Derick -- my other box is your windows PC - Derick Rethans http://derickrethans.nl/ PHP Magazine - PHP Magazine for Professionals http://php-mag.net/ - -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] Moderate PHP-DEV
I think, on web page is bad text. User's don't know if is it for PHP developers or about _PHP_ developers.. Jan On Wed, 12 Mar 2003, Jani Taskinen wrote: Of about 20 emails today, 6 were posted to wrong mailing list. And one of those generated a 5 email thread about not posting to wrong mailing list. (counting this one :) So I suggest we finally make this list MODERATED. -1. The list could be renamed so that it is less confusing for newbie PHP developers. - Sascha -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php == REKLAMA = Vyrazne zlavy pocitacov a prislusenstva Toshiba Pocket PC e740 v cench u? od 24.300,- Sk bez DPH Navstivte nas na adrese http://www.somi.sk/akcie.php -- PHP Development Mailing List http://www.php.net/ To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
