Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Rasmus Schultz]

I don't see anything questionable here.

xrDebug branding is clearly different from XDebug - it's capitalized 
differently, the logo doesn't remotely resemble XDebug branding, it doesn't 
even have the word "debug" in it. I don't see how this could possibly be a 
problem.

As for the logos, I see no indications of any sort of attempt to 
appropriate or misrepresent any brands - this is clearly just humor and a 
creative (in fact, warming) celebration of some older brands.

He explained himself in his first reply. I don't know why it was necessary 
to carry on it's no real wonder the man feels a little unwelcome.

Just my two cents, but I think everyone should chill, and welcome what 
appears to be a popular PHP project with a good following. Can y'all hug 
and move on please? 珞

On Wednesday, March 20, 2024 at 12:37:12 AM UTC+1 Alessandro Lai wrote:

> I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but in recent threads in 
> phpc.social it emerged that Rodolfo is behind a couple of, let's say, 
> questionable endeavors.
>
> First, he appears to be using famous logos as blueprint for the logos of 
> its projects: https://rodolfoberrios.com/
>
> Second, he's behind the xrdebug project, which is a PHP debugger which has 
> a name disturbingly close to the most famous, older one: 
> https://xrdebug.com/
>
> With this message, I ask Rodolfo to explain is behavior, so that we can 
> consider it before starting the vote on his membership. 
> Il giorno domenica 10 marzo 2024 alle 15:59:53 UTC+1 vin...@delau.nl ha 
> scritto:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> As a core committee member I'm happy to announce that Chevereto [1][2] 
>> wants to become a member project. I'm sponsoring this application and am 
>> introducing Rodolfo Berrios [3] as the proposed Project Representative. 
>>
>> Chevereto is a "self-hosted image sharing platform". Although exact user 
>> numbers are hard to find, there is a significant amount of downloads for 
>> container images for Chevereto [4]. There is also a community forum with 
>> over 2 members [5]. I believe in this time of enshitification [6][7][8] 
>> and the resulting rise of the Fediverse, this project is very relevant.
>>
>> In addition to the Chevereto application, there is also a collection of 
>> libraries or components that Rodolfo is working on, under the name Chevere 
>> [9][10].
>>
>> I'd like to invite Rodolfo to introduce himself to the list and formally 
>> start the discussion period which lasts at least 14 days.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Vincent de Lau
>> PHP-FIG Core Committee member
>>
>>
>> [1]: https://chevereto.com/
>> [2]: https://github.com/chevereto/chevereto
>> [3]: https://github.com/rodber
>> [4]: https://hub.docker.com/search?q=chevereto
>> [5]: https://chevereto.com/community/
>> [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification
>> [7]: https://chevereto.com/why
>> [8]: 
>> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/the-big-alternatives-to-google-photos-showdown/
>> [9]: https://chevere.org/
>> [10]: https://github.com/chevere
>
>

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Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Vincent de Lau]

On Wednesday, March 20, 2024 at 2:01:33 PM UTC+1 Rodolfo Berrios wrote:

I didn't block you, we don't share any servers. I left the PHP-FIG Discord 
and in all honesty, I don't feel welcomed here except by two people. It 
seems that FIG doesn't need my help so why bother.


That seems indeed to be the case, I was not aware of this aspect of Discord 
as I never encountered it before.
 

The level of hostility and regression that I read at phpc.social is just 
not what I'm looking for in my life, in all these years working in systems 
(since 2007) I never felt the urge of being part of the PHP community but 
when I reached certain age I wanted to be more active and perhaps bring 
something else to the table.


I think it is important to say that 'PHP' (aka internals), the PHP 
Foundation, the PHP-FIG and the PHP 'community' are all different groups, 
with different levels of formality and little to no connection between them 
except the people that form these groups. The PHP-FIG has a very narrow 
albeit ambitious mission, but by no means claims to represent the community 
at large. We do however listen to feedback and concerns from members of the 
wider community, which is why you got some difficult questions. In the 
things I read, I have seen no PHP-FIG representative making concluding 
statements about you or your work. 
 

It is sad to see how caustic people can get just because they don't want 
you in. Seeking excuses to start copyright infringement, calling morally 
questionable for picking certain names. I even saw people mentioning "it's 
for artisans!" as mocking Laravel users.


(I am not a lawyer...) In most parts of the world, 'trademark' an 
'copyright' are well established concepts. Local laws vary widely and 
sometimes requires (expensive) registration to be enforceable. There is 
however a 'letter of the law' and the 'spirit of the law'. According to the 
letter of the laws applicable to you, you might be in the clear. I would 
however not be surprised if at some point you will receive a 
cease-and-desist letter from one of the companies who's logos you got 
inspired by.

As for the spirit of the law, trademark and copyright exist because we 
believe that people who invested in building a brand or a creating a 
copyrightable work should be allowed to profit from their investment and 
prevent other from profiting unfairly. For trademark, there is also the 
matter of avoiding confusion in the relevant market.

So, while xdebug might not be an enforcable trademark, the use of 'xrdebug' 
does seem to generate confusion in the relevant market (PHP users). The 
fact that a project is not-for-profit or personal project is not relevant. 
The similar name might be completely coincidental, but given that xdebug is 
aproject with a strong and long track record, this confusion could have 
been anticipated and prevented. That is what I meant with 'morally 
questionable', which might sound harsher that intended trough two language 
barriers (English is not my native language either). What I meant is that 
choosing such a name goes against the norms and social standards that exist 
in the community. Because the similarity is with a high-profile project, 
ran by a well respected member of the PHP community, it is logical that 
some people have a strong reaction on the matter. 

You as a community have a serious problem when you enable this witch hunt.


I really don't understand how you come to see this as a witch hunt. I see 
someone mentioning they found out that XrDebug exists and that it is not 
related to XDebug. Derick gets notified and contacts you. People start 
looking into your projects and see logos that are 'heavily inspired' on 
existing trademarks. Someone else makes the link between you and your 
projects application to become a PHP-FIG member. At that point, people 
obviously have questions. That is not a witch hunt, that is people noticing 
your work and reacting to it. If those reactions are indeed abusive 
otherwise personal attacks, I'm the first to denounce them. I personally 
did not observe any of this, but if you have received those, feel free to 
contact me or a moderator to address those.


I don't want to be part of this.
Sorry.


Noted, and also sorry it had to go this way. 

Kind regards,
Vincent de Lau

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Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Korvin Szanto]

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 6:01 AM Rodolfo Berrios 
wrote:

> I didn't block you, we don't share any servers. I left the PHP-FIG Discord
> and in all honesty, I don't feel welcomed here except by two people. It
> seems that FIG doesn't need my help so why bother.
>
> The level of hostility and regression that I read at phpc.social is just
> not what I'm looking for in my life, in all these years working in systems
> (since 2007) I never felt the urge of being part of the PHP community but
> when I reached certain age I wanted to be more active and perhaps bring
> something else to the table.
>
> It is sad to see how caustic people can get just because they don't want
> you in. Seeking excuses to start copyright infringement, calling morally
> questionable for picking certain names. I even saw people mentioning "it's
> for artisans!" as mocking Laravel users.
>
> You as a community have a serious problem when you enable this witch hunt.
>
> I don't want to be part of this.
> Sorry.
>
> On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 7:56 AM Vincent de Lau  wrote:
>
>> Hi Rodolfo,
>>
>> Since you blocked me on Discord, I have to take this public route to
>> continue this discussion.
>>
>> You have stated that you feel bullied and excluded and I'm sorry you feel
>> that way. However, after reading the discussions here, on Mastodon and
>> Discord, I don't see any behavior that would typically be labeled
>> unacceptable. The concerns raised about potential trademark and copyright
>> infringement are valid in my opinion. In the case of xrDebug, while it
>> technically might not be illegal, I perfectly understand Derick's
>> frustration and the confusion it might cause within the PHP community at
>> large.
>>
>> In my view multiple people were engaging with you to get their questions
>> answered and find solutions for the aspects that could be problematic.
>> Nobody in the FIG outright attacked you, shunned you or tried to exclude
>> you. Maybe there are some cultural or language barriers in the way,
>> although I am thinking this is more a personality issue.
>>
>> You have indicated that you don't want to be part of this group anymore,
>> although you didn't specifically ask me to cancel the application, nor did
>> you do so yourself. Since you have blocked conversation with me as the
>> Sponsor, I can no longer be the Sponsor of this application, and thus I
>> will cancel it.
>>
>> Having said all this, feel free to contact me again is you want to
>> reflect on what transpired over the last 24 hours. I wish you and your
>> projects all the best and still hope to see you around in the PHP community.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Vincent de Lau
>> PHP-FIG Core Committee member
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 20, 2024 at 11:05:50 AM UTC+1 Rodolfo Berrios wrote:
>>
>>> On the debugger name controversy this is ridiculous. Simple as that, I
>>> don't wan to be part of this group if that's how you embrace diversity.
>>>
>>> Very disappointed that nobody is saying anything on how these guys are
>>> bullying my pet project.
>>>
>>> El El mié, 20 mar. 2024 a la(s) 04:53, Alessandro Lai <
>>> alessand...@gmail.com> escribió:
>>>

 Thank you Rodolfo for the quick answer.

 I raised those concerns because you, as a person, are requesting to
 join the PHP-FIG as a representative of your project, and that's not only
 the project that is under scrutiny. I personally, being a secretary, don't
 even have the right to vote on your membership, but I wanted these concerns
 addressed so that everyone with voting rights could decide if and how to
 weight those on your membership request.

 Clarification: these below are my personal considerations, that aren't
 in any mean intended as a PHP-FIG official opinion.

 You answered that you "didn't intend" to infringe on copyright or
 trademarks, but to the eye of the law that doesn't matter, you're still
 committing copyright/trademark infringement, and it's a pretty clear and
 cut case, since you're using companies' trademarks, which IIRC aren't even
 covered by rules like fair use. You can't consider yourself in the right
 just because none of these companies haven't discovered you or bothered to
 issue a cease and desist to you, you're still infringing. And open source,
 the very core mission or PHP-FIG, is founded on copyright licenses, so I'm
 worried of your low consideration on this topic.

 I welcome your clarification on xrdebug, and I've also seen on Reddit
 that you consider it an open source alternative to Spatie's Ray, not to a
 full fledged debugger; but still, you're using a name that very closely
 resembles an established, widely known and copyright-covered tool, which is
 possibly not trademarked only because Derick didn't have the funds to
 register it; this is even a bit worse once we consider it not a proper
 debugger, because it makes me question further why you decided for such a
 

Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Rodolfo Berrios]

I didn't block you, we don't share any servers. I left the PHP-FIG Discord
and in all honesty, I don't feel welcomed here except by two people. It
seems that FIG doesn't need my help so why bother.

The level of hostility and regression that I read at phpc.social is just
not what I'm looking for in my life, in all these years working in systems
(since 2007) I never felt the urge of being part of the PHP community but
when I reached certain age I wanted to be more active and perhaps bring
something else to the table.

It is sad to see how caustic people can get just because they don't want
you in. Seeking excuses to start copyright infringement, calling morally
questionable for picking certain names. I even saw people mentioning "it's
for artisans!" as mocking Laravel users.

You as a community have a serious problem when you enable this witch hunt.

I don't want to be part of this.
Sorry.

On Wed, Mar 20, 2024 at 7:56 AM Vincent de Lau  wrote:

> Hi Rodolfo,
>
> Since you blocked me on Discord, I have to take this public route to
> continue this discussion.
>
> You have stated that you feel bullied and excluded and I'm sorry you feel
> that way. However, after reading the discussions here, on Mastodon and
> Discord, I don't see any behavior that would typically be labeled
> unacceptable. The concerns raised about potential trademark and copyright
> infringement are valid in my opinion. In the case of xrDebug, while it
> technically might not be illegal, I perfectly understand Derick's
> frustration and the confusion it might cause within the PHP community at
> large.
>
> In my view multiple people were engaging with you to get their questions
> answered and find solutions for the aspects that could be problematic.
> Nobody in the FIG outright attacked you, shunned you or tried to exclude
> you. Maybe there are some cultural or language barriers in the way,
> although I am thinking this is more a personality issue.
>
> You have indicated that you don't want to be part of this group anymore,
> although you didn't specifically ask me to cancel the application, nor did
> you do so yourself. Since you have blocked conversation with me as the
> Sponsor, I can no longer be the Sponsor of this application, and thus I
> will cancel it.
>
> Having said all this, feel free to contact me again is you want to reflect
> on what transpired over the last 24 hours. I wish you and your projects all
> the best and still hope to see you around in the PHP community.
>
> Kind regards,
> Vincent de Lau
> PHP-FIG Core Committee member
>
> On Wednesday, March 20, 2024 at 11:05:50 AM UTC+1 Rodolfo Berrios wrote:
>
>> On the debugger name controversy this is ridiculous. Simple as that, I
>> don't wan to be part of this group if that's how you embrace diversity.
>>
>> Very disappointed that nobody is saying anything on how these guys are
>> bullying my pet project.
>>
>> El El mié, 20 mar. 2024 a la(s) 04:53, Alessandro Lai <
>> alessand...@gmail.com> escribió:
>>
>>>
>>> Thank you Rodolfo for the quick answer.
>>>
>>> I raised those concerns because you, as a person, are requesting to join
>>> the PHP-FIG as a representative of your project, and that's not only the
>>> project that is under scrutiny. I personally, being a secretary, don't even
>>> have the right to vote on your membership, but I wanted these concerns
>>> addressed so that everyone with voting rights could decide if and how to
>>> weight those on your membership request.
>>>
>>> Clarification: these below are my personal considerations, that aren't
>>> in any mean intended as a PHP-FIG official opinion.
>>>
>>> You answered that you "didn't intend" to infringe on copyright or
>>> trademarks, but to the eye of the law that doesn't matter, you're still
>>> committing copyright/trademark infringement, and it's a pretty clear and
>>> cut case, since you're using companies' trademarks, which IIRC aren't even
>>> covered by rules like fair use. You can't consider yourself in the right
>>> just because none of these companies haven't discovered you or bothered to
>>> issue a cease and desist to you, you're still infringing. And open source,
>>> the very core mission or PHP-FIG, is founded on copyright licenses, so I'm
>>> worried of your low consideration on this topic.
>>>
>>> I welcome your clarification on xrdebug, and I've also seen on Reddit
>>> that you consider it an open source alternative to Spatie's Ray, not to a
>>> full fledged debugger; but still, you're using a name that very closely
>>> resembles an established, widely known and copyright-covered tool, which is
>>> possibly not trademarked only because Derick didn't have the funds to
>>> register it; this is even a bit worse once we consider it not a proper
>>> debugger, because it makes me question further why you decided for such a
>>> name.
>>> Il giorno mercoledì 20 marzo 2024 alle 03:20:49 UTC+1
>>> rodolfo...@gmail.com ha scritto:
>>>
 I feel your concerns very disturbing but anyway here it goes:

Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Vincent de Lau]

Hi Rodolfo,

Since you blocked me on Discord, I have to take this public route to 
continue this discussion.

You have stated that you feel bullied and excluded and I'm sorry you feel 
that way. However, after reading the discussions here, on Mastodon and 
Discord, I don't see any behavior that would typically be labeled 
unacceptable. The concerns raised about potential trademark and copyright 
infringement are valid in my opinion. In the case of xrDebug, while it 
technically might not be illegal, I perfectly understand Derick's 
frustration and the confusion it might cause within the PHP community at 
large.

In my view multiple people were engaging with you to get their questions 
answered and find solutions for the aspects that could be problematic. 
Nobody in the FIG outright attacked you, shunned you or tried to exclude 
you. Maybe there are some cultural or language barriers in the way, 
although I am thinking this is more a personality issue. 

You have indicated that you don't want to be part of this group anymore, 
although you didn't specifically ask me to cancel the application, nor did 
you do so yourself. Since you have blocked conversation with me as the 
Sponsor, I can no longer be the Sponsor of this application, and thus I 
will cancel it.

Having said all this, feel free to contact me again is you want to reflect 
on what transpired over the last 24 hours. I wish you and your projects all 
the best and still hope to see you around in the PHP community.

Kind regards,
Vincent de Lau
PHP-FIG Core Committee member

On Wednesday, March 20, 2024 at 11:05:50 AM UTC+1 Rodolfo Berrios wrote:

> On the debugger name controversy this is ridiculous. Simple as that, I 
> don't wan to be part of this group if that's how you embrace diversity.
>
> Very disappointed that nobody is saying anything on how these guys are 
> bullying my pet project.
>
> El El mié, 20 mar. 2024 a la(s) 04:53, Alessandro Lai <
> alessand...@gmail.com> escribió:
>
>>
>> Thank you Rodolfo for the quick answer. 
>>
>> I raised those concerns because you, as a person, are requesting to join 
>> the PHP-FIG as a representative of your project, and that's not only the 
>> project that is under scrutiny. I personally, being a secretary, don't even 
>> have the right to vote on your membership, but I wanted these concerns 
>> addressed so that everyone with voting rights could decide if and how to 
>> weight those on your membership request. 
>>
>> Clarification: these below are my personal considerations, that aren't in 
>> any mean intended as a PHP-FIG official opinion.
>>
>> You answered that you "didn't intend" to infringe on copyright or 
>> trademarks, but to the eye of the law that doesn't matter, you're still 
>> committing copyright/trademark infringement, and it's a pretty clear and 
>> cut case, since you're using companies' trademarks, which IIRC aren't even 
>> covered by rules like fair use. You can't consider yourself in the right 
>> just because none of these companies haven't discovered you or bothered to 
>> issue a cease and desist to you, you're still infringing. And open source, 
>> the very core mission or PHP-FIG, is founded on copyright licenses, so I'm 
>> worried of your low consideration on this topic. 
>>
>> I welcome your clarification on xrdebug, and I've also seen on Reddit 
>> that you consider it an open source alternative to Spatie's Ray, not to a 
>> full fledged debugger; but still, you're using a name that very closely 
>> resembles an established, widely known and copyright-covered tool, which is 
>> possibly not trademarked only because Derick didn't have the funds to 
>> register it; this is even a bit worse once we consider it not a proper 
>> debugger, because it makes me question further why you decided for such a 
>> name.
>> Il giorno mercoledì 20 marzo 2024 alle 03:20:49 UTC+1 
>> rodolfo...@gmail.com ha scritto:
>>
>>> I feel your concerns very disturbing but anyway here it goes:
>>>
>>> 1. The logos I use is part of an artistic movement, is not for copyright 
>>> infringement nor defamation intended. I created the Chevere organization in 
>>> 2018 and I have zero issues to takedown the logos if these bother the 
>>> concerning parties (I have never being bothered by anyone). I took many 
>>> famous logos because I liked them, and many of these are not the current 
>>> logo of these companies but I honor them on my way with a second life. For 
>>> example, this one: https://chevere.org/packages/throwable-handler is 
>>> from a Chilean cement company. You can read a very interesting background 
>>> here: https://www.rchav.cl/2015_26_art05_baranlloni.html#p2
>>>
>>> If helps, I'm up to write a section on chevere.org explaining why I got 
>>> inspired by these logos and what can the affected parties (if any) do to 
>>> get me stop using these. These aren't commercial projects anyway. But quick 
>>> question: Why logos for Chevere.org (which is not the project being 
>>> summited here) 

Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Rodolfo Berrios]

On the debugger name controversy this is ridiculous. Simple as that, I
don't wan to be part of this group if that's how you embrace diversity.

Very disappointed that nobody is saying anything on how these guys are
bullying my pet project.

El El mié, 20 mar. 2024 a la(s) 04:53, Alessandro Lai <
alessandro.la...@gmail.com> escribió:

>
> Thank you Rodolfo for the quick answer.
>
> I raised those concerns because you, as a person, are requesting to join
> the PHP-FIG as a representative of your project, and that's not only the
> project that is under scrutiny. I personally, being a secretary, don't even
> have the right to vote on your membership, but I wanted these concerns
> addressed so that everyone with voting rights could decide if and how to
> weight those on your membership request.
>
> Clarification: these below are my personal considerations, that aren't in
> any mean intended as a PHP-FIG official opinion.
>
> You answered that you "didn't intend" to infringe on copyright or
> trademarks, but to the eye of the law that doesn't matter, you're still
> committing copyright/trademark infringement, and it's a pretty clear and
> cut case, since you're using companies' trademarks, which IIRC aren't even
> covered by rules like fair use. You can't consider yourself in the right
> just because none of these companies haven't discovered you or bothered to
> issue a cease and desist to you, you're still infringing. And open source,
> the very core mission or PHP-FIG, is founded on copyright licenses, so I'm
> worried of your low consideration on this topic.
>
> I welcome your clarification on xrdebug, and I've also seen on Reddit that
> you consider it an open source alternative to Spatie's Ray, not to a full
> fledged debugger; but still, you're using a name that very closely
> resembles an established, widely known and copyright-covered tool, which is
> possibly not trademarked only because Derick didn't have the funds to
> register it; this is even a bit worse once we consider it not a proper
> debugger, because it makes me question further why you decided for such a
> name.
> Il giorno mercoledì 20 marzo 2024 alle 03:20:49 UTC+1 rodolfo...@gmail.com
> ha scritto:
>
>> I feel your concerns very disturbing but anyway here it goes:
>>
>> 1. The logos I use is part of an artistic movement, is not for copyright
>> infringement nor defamation intended. I created the Chevere organization in
>> 2018 and I have zero issues to takedown the logos if these bother the
>> concerning parties (I have never being bothered by anyone). I took many
>> famous logos because I liked them, and many of these are not the current
>> logo of these companies but I honor them on my way with a second life. For
>> example, this one: https://chevere.org/packages/throwable-handler is
>> from a Chilean cement company. You can read a very interesting background
>> here: https://www.rchav.cl/2015_26_art05_baranlloni.html#p2
>>
>> If helps, I'm up to write a section on chevere.org explaining why I got
>> inspired by these logos and what can the affected parties (if any) do to
>> get me stop using these. These aren't commercial projects anyway. But quick
>> question: Why logos for Chevere.org (which is not the project being
>> summited here) affects this anyway?
>>
>> 2. Regarding the Xdebug and xrDebug "naming collision". I'm sorry but I
>> think that this is very odd to even mention, a no issue. There's vi and
>> vim, there's Java and JavaScript (and so on) but I can't have xrDebug
>> because which exact reason? PHP users won't ever stop using Xdebug for PHP
>> and my objective is not to get people stop using that software, I just
>> offer a simpler solution for very specific cases. Also, my debugger suits a
>> completely different purpose and I've public addressed that on MergePHP
>> last meetup. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HoCbXVMltE=795s
>> Xdebug is a full featured PHP debugger while xrDebug is a lightweight debug
>> tool for PHP (and more) is just that I don't have all the client libraries
>> yet. If I ever get xrDebug to become more popular, it will surely transcend
>> PHP and it has the potential to be more popular than Xdebug. Is that the
>> real matter here?
>>
>> To clarify, it is not an option to rename xrDebug to get me to be part of
>> PHP-FIG.
>>
>> I wonder why you didn't ask anything about Chevereto, which is the
>> project that I'm proposing here anyway.
>>
>> Thanks for sharing your concerns.
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 8:37:12 PM UTC-3 Alessandro Lai wrote:
>>
>>> I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but in recent threads in
>>> phpc.social it emerged that Rodolfo is behind a couple of, let's say,
>>> questionable endeavors.
>>>
>>> First, he appears to be using famous logos as blueprint for the logos of
>>> its projects: https://rodolfoberrios.com/
>>>
>>> Second, he's behind the xrdebug project, which is a PHP debugger which
>>> has a name disturbingly close to the most famous, older one:
>>> 

Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Alessandro Lai]

Thank you Rodolfo for the quick answer. 

I raised those concerns because you, as a person, are requesting to join 
the PHP-FIG as a representative of your project, and that's not only the 
project that is under scrutiny. I personally, being a secretary, don't even 
have the right to vote on your membership, but I wanted these concerns 
addressed so that everyone with voting rights could decide if and how to 
weight those on your membership request. 

Clarification: these below are my personal considerations, that aren't in 
any mean intended as a PHP-FIG official opinion.

You answered that you "didn't intend" to infringe on copyright or 
trademarks, but to the eye of the law that doesn't matter, you're still 
committing copyright/trademark infringement, and it's a pretty clear and 
cut case, since you're using companies' trademarks, which IIRC aren't even 
covered by rules like fair use. You can't consider yourself in the right 
just because none of these companies haven't discovered you or bothered to 
issue a cease and desist to you, you're still infringing. And open source, 
the very core mission or PHP-FIG, is founded on copyright licenses, so I'm 
worried of your low consideration on this topic. 

I welcome your clarification on xrdebug, and I've also seen on Reddit that 
you consider it an open source alternative to Spatie's Ray, not to a full 
fledged debugger; but still, you're using a name that very closely 
resembles an established, widely known and copyright-covered tool, which is 
possibly not trademarked only because Derick didn't have the funds to 
register it; this is even a bit worse once we consider it not a proper 
debugger, because it makes me question further why you decided for such a 
name.
Il giorno mercoledì 20 marzo 2024 alle 03:20:49 UTC+1 rodolfo...@gmail.com 
ha scritto:

> I feel your concerns very disturbing but anyway here it goes:
>
> 1. The logos I use is part of an artistic movement, is not for copyright 
> infringement nor defamation intended. I created the Chevere organization in 
> 2018 and I have zero issues to takedown the logos if these bother the 
> concerning parties (I have never being bothered by anyone). I took many 
> famous logos because I liked them, and many of these are not the current 
> logo of these companies but I honor them on my way with a second life. For 
> example, this one: https://chevere.org/packages/throwable-handler is from 
> a Chilean cement company. You can read a very interesting background here: 
> https://www.rchav.cl/2015_26_art05_baranlloni.html#p2
>
> If helps, I'm up to write a section on chevere.org explaining why I got 
> inspired by these logos and what can the affected parties (if any) do to 
> get me stop using these. These aren't commercial projects anyway. But quick 
> question: Why logos for Chevere.org (which is not the project being 
> summited here) affects this anyway?
>
> 2. Regarding the Xdebug and xrDebug "naming collision". I'm sorry but I 
> think that this is very odd to even mention, a no issue. There's vi and 
> vim, there's Java and JavaScript (and so on) but I can't have xrDebug 
> because which exact reason? PHP users won't ever stop using Xdebug for PHP 
> and my objective is not to get people stop using that software, I just 
> offer a simpler solution for very specific cases. Also, my debugger suits a 
> completely different purpose and I've public addressed that on MergePHP 
> last meetup. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HoCbXVMltE=795s 
> Xdebug is a full featured PHP debugger while xrDebug is a lightweight debug 
> tool for PHP (and more) is just that I don't have all the client libraries 
> yet. If I ever get xrDebug to become more popular, it will surely transcend 
> PHP and it has the potential to be more popular than Xdebug. Is that the 
> real matter here?
>
> To clarify, it is not an option to rename xrDebug to get me to be part of 
> PHP-FIG.
>
> I wonder why you didn't ask anything about Chevereto, which is the project 
> that I'm proposing here anyway.
>
> Thanks for sharing your concerns.
>
> On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 8:37:12 PM UTC-3 Alessandro Lai wrote:
>
>> I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but in recent threads in 
>> phpc.social it emerged that Rodolfo is behind a couple of, let's say, 
>> questionable endeavors.
>>
>> First, he appears to be using famous logos as blueprint for the logos of 
>> its projects: https://rodolfoberrios.com/
>>
>> Second, he's behind the xrdebug project, which is a PHP debugger which 
>> has a name disturbingly close to the most famous, older one: 
>> https://xrdebug.com/
>>
>> With this message, I ask Rodolfo to explain is behavior, so that we can 
>> consider it before starting the vote on his membership. 
>> Il giorno domenica 10 marzo 2024 alle 15:59:53 UTC+1 vin...@delau.nl ha 
>> scritto:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> As a core committee member I'm happy to announce that Chevereto [1][2] 
>>> wants to become a member project. I'm sponsoring 

Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Rodolfo Berríos]

I feel your concerns very disturbing but anyway here it goes:

1. The logos I use is part of an artistic movement, is not for copyright 
infringement nor defamation intended. I created the Chevere organization in 
2018 and I have zero issues to takedown the logos if these bother the 
concerning parties (I have never being bothered by anyone). I took many 
famous logos because I liked them, and many of these are not the current 
logo of these companies but I honor them on my way with a second life. For 
example, this one: https://chevere.org/packages/throwable-handler is from a 
Chilean cement company. You can read a very interesting background here: 
https://www.rchav.cl/2015_26_art05_baranlloni.html#p2

If helps, I'm up to write a section on chevere.org explaining why I got 
inspired by these logos and what can the affected parties (if any) do to 
get me stop using these. These aren't commercial projects anyway. But quick 
question: Why logos for Chevere.org (which is not the project being 
summited here) affects this anyway?

2. Regarding the Xdebug and xrDebug "naming collision". I'm sorry but I 
think that this is very odd to even mention, a no issue. There's vi and 
vim, there's Java and JavaScript (and so on) but I can't have xrDebug 
because which exact reason? PHP users won't ever stop using Xdebug for PHP 
and my objective is not to get people stop using that software, I just 
offer a simpler solution for very specific cases. Also, my debugger suits a 
completely different purpose and I've public addressed that on MergePHP 
last meetup. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HoCbXVMltE=795s 
Xdebug is a full featured PHP debugger while xrDebug is a lightweight debug 
tool for PHP (and more) is just that I don't have all the client libraries 
yet. If I ever get xrDebug to become more popular, it will surely transcend 
PHP and it has the potential to be more popular than Xdebug. Is that the 
real matter here?

To clarify, it is not an option to rename xrDebug to get me to be part of 
PHP-FIG.

I wonder why you didn't ask anything about Chevereto, which is the project 
that I'm proposing here anyway.

Thanks for sharing your concerns.

On Tuesday, March 19, 2024 at 8:37:12 PM UTC-3 Alessandro Lai wrote:

> I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but in recent threads in 
> phpc.social it emerged that Rodolfo is behind a couple of, let's say, 
> questionable endeavors.
>
> First, he appears to be using famous logos as blueprint for the logos of 
> its projects: https://rodolfoberrios.com/
>
> Second, he's behind the xrdebug project, which is a PHP debugger which has 
> a name disturbingly close to the most famous, older one: 
> https://xrdebug.com/
>
> With this message, I ask Rodolfo to explain is behavior, so that we can 
> consider it before starting the vote on his membership. 
> Il giorno domenica 10 marzo 2024 alle 15:59:53 UTC+1 vin...@delau.nl ha 
> scritto:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> As a core committee member I'm happy to announce that Chevereto [1][2] 
>> wants to become a member project. I'm sponsoring this application and am 
>> introducing Rodolfo Berrios [3] as the proposed Project Representative. 
>>
>> Chevereto is a "self-hosted image sharing platform". Although exact user 
>> numbers are hard to find, there is a significant amount of downloads for 
>> container images for Chevereto [4]. There is also a community forum with 
>> over 2 members [5]. I believe in this time of enshitification [6][7][8] 
>> and the resulting rise of the Fediverse, this project is very relevant.
>>
>> In addition to the Chevereto application, there is also a collection of 
>> libraries or components that Rodolfo is working on, under the name Chevere 
>> [9][10].
>>
>> I'd like to invite Rodolfo to introduce himself to the list and formally 
>> start the discussion period which lasts at least 14 days.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>> Vincent de Lau
>> PHP-FIG Core Committee member
>>
>>
>> [1]: https://chevereto.com/
>> [2]: https://github.com/chevereto/chevereto
>> [3]: https://github.com/rodber
>> [4]: https://hub.docker.com/search?q=chevereto
>> [5]: https://chevereto.com/community/
>> [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification
>> [7]: https://chevereto.com/why
>> [8]: 
>> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/the-big-alternatives-to-google-photos-showdown/
>> [9]: https://chevere.org/
>> [10]: https://github.com/chevere
>
>

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Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Alessandro Lai]

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but in recent threads in 
phpc.social it emerged that Rodolfo is behind a couple of, let's say, 
questionable endeavors.

First, he appears to be using famous logos as blueprint for the logos of 
its projects: https://rodolfoberrios.com/

Second, he's behind the xrdebug project, which is a PHP debugger which has 
a name disturbingly close to the most famous, older one: 
https://xrdebug.com/

With this message, I ask Rodolfo to explain is behavior, so that we can 
consider it before starting the vote on his membership. 
Il giorno domenica 10 marzo 2024 alle 15:59:53 UTC+1 vin...@delau.nl ha 
scritto:

> Hi all,
>
> As a core committee member I'm happy to announce that Chevereto [1][2] 
> wants to become a member project. I'm sponsoring this application and am 
> introducing Rodolfo Berrios [3] as the proposed Project Representative. 
>
> Chevereto is a "self-hosted image sharing platform". Although exact user 
> numbers are hard to find, there is a significant amount of downloads for 
> container images for Chevereto [4]. There is also a community forum with 
> over 2 members [5]. I believe in this time of enshitification [6][7][8] 
> and the resulting rise of the Fediverse, this project is very relevant.
>
> In addition to the Chevereto application, there is also a collection of 
> libraries or components that Rodolfo is working on, under the name Chevere 
> [9][10].
>
> I'd like to invite Rodolfo to introduce himself to the list and formally 
> start the discussion period which lasts at least 14 days.
>
> Kind regards,
> Vincent de Lau
> PHP-FIG Core Committee member
>
>
> [1]: https://chevereto.com/
> [2]: https://github.com/chevereto/chevereto
> [3]: https://github.com/rodber
> [4]: https://hub.docker.com/search?q=chevereto
> [5]: https://chevereto.com/community/
> [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification
> [7]: https://chevereto.com/why
> [8]: 
> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/the-big-alternatives-to-google-photos-showdown/
> [9]: https://chevere.org/
> [10]: https://github.com/chevere

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Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Leo Cavalcante]

Welcome, Rodolfo!
Really interesting project 
Best,
Leo

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 7:58 PM Korvin Szanto 
wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 8:57 AM Larry Garfield 
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, at 10:21 AM, Rodolfo Berríos wrote:
>> > Thanks Vincent and hello PHP-FIG.
>> >
>> > My name is Rodolfo Berrios and I'm software engineer from Chile. I've
>> > been using PHP since v5.2 and I've a lots of projects with PHP as you
>> > may check on Vincent's intro. I'm applying here because I want to get
>> > more involved with the community around the language and its user
>> > standards, I think that I can bring value here and learn from all of
>> > you.
>> >
>> > I started Chevereto (2007) to learn PHP and I've been living from it
>> > all these years. It is a high level system, used as a Flickr/Imgur
>> > replacement. When I started with Chevere (2018) I got more into low
>> > level components as I noticed lacking of certain software in PHP and I
>> > got more interested in interoperability.
>> >
>> > I do belive that PHP-FIG is relevant, it represents what I want for PHP
>> > and I want to be part of this group.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Rodolfo.
>>
>> Hi Rodolfo.  It looks like an interesting and successful project.  I do
>> have one question.  The GitHub repo lists the project as AGPLv3.  The
>> pricing page talks about needing license keys.  How exactly does that
>> work?  I do not understand this model.
>>
>> --Larry Garfield
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to php-fig+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/5d59b758-ee4b-4d37-9b5e-665ad58655f6%40app.fastmail.com
>> .
>>
>
> Welcome Rodolfo!
> I see Chevereto has a paid closed source version and a free open source
> version that has some features removed[1], is that correct? If so does the
> paid version have a specific name that might help someone distinguish the
> open source project that has FIG membership from the paid project that
> potentially doesn't?
>
> Thanks for your interest, Chevere and Chevereto look like good additions
> to the group.
>
> Best,
> Korvin
>
> 1.
> https://rodolfoberrios.com/2022/12/01/chevereto-goes-free/#%F0%9F%98%98-made-for-personal-usage
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Rodolfo Berríos]

Hi Kevin, yes Chevereto has two editions.

The mainline project is "Chevereto", the free edition is auto sourced from 
the paid build as the upstream is proprietary. I understand that member 
projects must be "<...> publicly available PHP projects" and in this case 
we have a project with both public and private parts as it ships in two 
editions. In the same post you mentioned I have an explanation on why I 
used the same name for both 
editions: 
https://rodolfoberrios.com/2022/12/01/chevereto-goes-free/#%E2%80%8D-bad-naming

Cheers,
Rodolfo.

On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-3 Korvin Szanto wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 8:57 AM Larry Garfield  
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, at 10:21 AM, Rodolfo Berríos wrote:
>> > Thanks Vincent and hello PHP-FIG.
>> >
>> > My name is Rodolfo Berrios and I'm software engineer from Chile. I've 
>> > been using PHP since v5.2 and I've a lots of projects with PHP as you 
>> > may check on Vincent's intro. I'm applying here because I want to get 
>> > more involved with the community around the language and its user 
>> > standards, I think that I can bring value here and learn from all of 
>> > you.
>> >
>> > I started Chevereto (2007) to learn PHP and I've been living from it 
>> > all these years. It is a high level system, used as a Flickr/Imgur 
>> > replacement. When I started with Chevere (2018) I got more into low 
>> > level components as I noticed lacking of certain software in PHP and I 
>> > got more interested in interoperability.
>> >
>> > I do belive that PHP-FIG is relevant, it represents what I want for PHP 
>> > and I want to be part of this group.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> > Rodolfo.
>>
>> Hi Rodolfo.  It looks like an interesting and successful project.  I do 
>> have one question.  The GitHub repo lists the project as AGPLv3.  The 
>> pricing page talks about needing license keys.  How exactly does that 
>> work?  I do not understand this model.
>>
>> --Larry Garfield
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to php-fig+u...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/5d59b758-ee4b-4d37-9b5e-665ad58655f6%40app.fastmail.com
>> .
>>
>
> Welcome Rodolfo!
> I see Chevereto has a paid closed source version and a free open source 
> version that has some features removed[1], is that correct? If so does the 
> paid version have a specific name that might help someone distinguish the 
> open source project that has FIG membership from the paid project that 
> potentially doesn't?
>
> Thanks for your interest, Chevere and Chevereto look like good additions 
> to the group.
>
> Best,
> Korvin
>
> 1. 
> https://rodolfoberrios.com/2022/12/01/chevereto-goes-free/#%F0%9F%98%98-made-for-personal-usage
>
>

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Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Rodolfo Berríos]

(replying this again but this time with "reply all" I'm still getting used)

Hi Larry, sure. This should cover most of your concerns: 
https://rodolfoberrios.com/2022/12/01/chevereto-goes-free/
To summarize Chevereto has editions. There's a main edition (proprietary) 
and an Open Source edition under AGPLv3. Previously I had another project 
called "Chevereto-Free" here: https://github.com/rodber/chevereto-free

Chevereto has been free/paid/etc so many times that I understand the 
confusion. My goal has been always Open Source but it didn't pay neither I 
got contribution. I'm still finding ways to make it more universal, quite 
challenging the last few years.

On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 12:57:49 PM UTC-3 Larry Garfield wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, at 10:21 AM, Rodolfo Berríos wrote:
> > Thanks Vincent and hello PHP-FIG.
> >
> > My name is Rodolfo Berrios and I'm software engineer from Chile. I've 
> > been using PHP since v5.2 and I've a lots of projects with PHP as you 
> > may check on Vincent's intro. I'm applying here because I want to get 
> > more involved with the community around the language and its user 
> > standards, I think that I can bring value here and learn from all of 
> > you.
> >
> > I started Chevereto (2007) to learn PHP and I've been living from it 
> > all these years. It is a high level system, used as a Flickr/Imgur 
> > replacement. When I started with Chevere (2018) I got more into low 
> > level components as I noticed lacking of certain software in PHP and I 
> > got more interested in interoperability.
> >
> > I do belive that PHP-FIG is relevant, it represents what I want for PHP 
> > and I want to be part of this group.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Rodolfo.
>
> Hi Rodolfo. It looks like an interesting and successful project. I do have 
> one question. The GitHub repo lists the project as AGPLv3. The pricing page 
> talks about needing license keys. How exactly does that work? I do not 
> understand this model.
>
> --Larry Garfield
>

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Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Korvin Szanto]

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, 8:57 AM Larry Garfield  wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, at 10:21 AM, Rodolfo Berríos wrote:
> > Thanks Vincent and hello PHP-FIG.
> >
> > My name is Rodolfo Berrios and I'm software engineer from Chile. I've
> > been using PHP since v5.2 and I've a lots of projects with PHP as you
> > may check on Vincent's intro. I'm applying here because I want to get
> > more involved with the community around the language and its user
> > standards, I think that I can bring value here and learn from all of
> > you.
> >
> > I started Chevereto (2007) to learn PHP and I've been living from it
> > all these years. It is a high level system, used as a Flickr/Imgur
> > replacement. When I started with Chevere (2018) I got more into low
> > level components as I noticed lacking of certain software in PHP and I
> > got more interested in interoperability.
> >
> > I do belive that PHP-FIG is relevant, it represents what I want for PHP
> > and I want to be part of this group.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Rodolfo.
>
> Hi Rodolfo.  It looks like an interesting and successful project.  I do
> have one question.  The GitHub repo lists the project as AGPLv3.  The
> pricing page talks about needing license keys.  How exactly does that
> work?  I do not understand this model.
>
> --Larry Garfield
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "PHP Framework Interoperability Group" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to php-fig+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/php-fig/5d59b758-ee4b-4d37-9b5e-665ad58655f6%40app.fastmail.com
> .
>

Welcome Rodolfo!
I see Chevereto has a paid closed source version and a free open source
version that has some features removed[1], is that correct? If so does the
paid version have a specific name that might help someone distinguish the
open source project that has FIG membership from the paid project that
potentially doesn't?

Thanks for your interest, Chevere and Chevereto look like good additions to
the group.

Best,
Korvin

1.
https://rodolfoberrios.com/2022/12/01/chevereto-goes-free/#%F0%9F%98%98-made-for-personal-usage

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Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Larry Garfield]

On Sun, Mar 10, 2024, at 10:21 AM, Rodolfo Berríos wrote:
> Thanks Vincent and hello PHP-FIG.
>
> My name is Rodolfo Berrios and I'm software engineer from Chile. I've 
> been using PHP since v5.2 and I've a lots of projects with PHP as you 
> may check on Vincent's intro. I'm applying here because I want to get 
> more involved with the community around the language and its user 
> standards, I think that I can bring value here and learn from all of 
> you.
>
> I started Chevereto (2007) to learn PHP and I've been living from it 
> all these years. It is a high level system, used as a Flickr/Imgur 
> replacement. When I started with Chevere (2018) I got more into low 
> level components as I noticed lacking of certain software in PHP and I 
> got more interested in interoperability.
>
> I do belive that PHP-FIG is relevant, it represents what I want for PHP 
> and I want to be part of this group.
>
> Cheers,
> Rodolfo.

Hi Rodolfo.  It looks like an interesting and successful project.  I do have 
one question.  The GitHub repo lists the project as AGPLv3.  The pricing page 
talks about needing license keys.  How exactly does that work?  I do not 
understand this model.

--Larry Garfield

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Re: [Discussion][Member Projects] Chevereto membership application

[Rodolfo Berríos]

Thanks Vincent and hello PHP-FIG.

My name is Rodolfo Berrios and I'm software engineer from Chile. I've been 
using PHP since v5.2 and I've a lots of projects with PHP as you may check 
on Vincent's intro. I'm applying here because I want to get more involved 
with the community around the language and its user standards, I think that 
I can bring value here and learn from all of you.

I started Chevereto (2007) to learn PHP and I've been living from it all 
these years. It is a high level system, used as a Flickr/Imgur replacement. 
When I started with Chevere (2018) I got more into low level components as 
I noticed lacking of certain software in PHP and I got more interested in 
interoperability.

I do belive that PHP-FIG is relevant, it represents what I want for PHP and 
I want to be part of this group.

Cheers,
Rodolfo.

On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 11:59:53 AM UTC-3 Vincent de Lau wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> As a core committee member I'm happy to announce that Chevereto [1][2] 
> wants to become a member project. I'm sponsoring this application and am 
> introducing Rodolfo Berrios [3] as the proposed Project Representative. 
>
> Chevereto is a "self-hosted image sharing platform". Although exact user 
> numbers are hard to find, there is a significant amount of downloads for 
> container images for Chevereto [4]. There is also a community forum with 
> over 2 members [5]. I believe in this time of enshitification [6][7][8] 
> and the resulting rise of the Fediverse, this project is very relevant.
>
> In addition to the Chevereto application, there is also a collection of 
> libraries or components that Rodolfo is working on, under the name Chevere 
> [9][10].
>
> I'd like to invite Rodolfo to introduce himself to the list and formally 
> start the discussion period which lasts at least 14 days.
>
> Kind regards,
> Vincent de Lau
> PHP-FIG Core Committee member
>
>
> [1]: https://chevereto.com/
> [2]: https://github.com/chevereto/chevereto
> [3]: https://github.com/rodber
> [4]: https://hub.docker.com/search?q=chevereto
> [5]: https://chevereto.com/community/
> [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification
> [7]: https://chevereto.com/why
> [8]: 
> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/06/the-big-alternatives-to-google-photos-showdown/
> [9]: https://chevere.org/
> [10]: https://github.com/chevere

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