Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Wed, 2008-09-17 at 15:36 -0400, Jason Pruim wrote: > On Sep 17, 2008, at 3:24 PM, Stut wrote: > > > On 16 Sep 2008, at 23:54, tedd wrote: > >> At 7:40 PM +0100 9/16/08, Stut wrote: > >>> On 16 Sep 2008, at 15:59, tedd wrote: > > > > > Snail-mail spam relies upon the same basic fact that electronic spam > > does... everyone hates it until it offers them something they want. > > Unfortunately in most cases it happens often enough to be > > profitable. Oh, and because everyone's doing it these days there > > doesn't seem to be any noticeable effect on a company's reputation > > which is unfortunate. > > I like what you said right here stut... It's only junk until someone > hits the nail on the head with it! Maybe 9 out of 10 people don't need > another credit card... but it's that 1 person they do it for. Average > response rates to direct mail marketing campaigns are about 2% being > considered good. > > > > > > > It's possible that if more people returned it, possible with some > > extra weight they might stop, but I don't see it happening. You > > might have better luck getting removed if you mark the envelope "No > > longer at this address" rather than writing a rant. They're less > > likely to continue sending you stuff if they don't think you're > > there anymore. I do the same with spam email using the bounce > > feature in Apple Mail and it's worked pretty well both on and offline. > > As the resident direct mail specialist on this list... :) > > I can say that the amount of mail that is returned to the customer > won't affect in any way shape or form how much mail they send out. > Presumably they are working of a rented list where you can get any > info you could possible ever think of... I registered a domain and not > more then 1 month later I had a business credit card offer from > Capitol One... Who is the largest direct mailer in the US. I barely > even had a crappy site up before that happened! :) > > And as far as returning the mail to them in their envelopes, it > doesn't cost that much... $500/year for the permit, per piece returned > fee + Weighted first class rate... All in all, not that big of a deal :) > > But what ever makes you happy! :) > > > -- > > Jason Pruim > Raoset Inc. > Technology Manager > MQC Specialist > 11287 James St > Holland, MI 49424 > www.raoset.com > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > It's all about weighing those suckers down some more with loose change that we all have accumulating everywhere. For the cost of 10p of mine, I know i've just put their costs up way more. Of course, if you don't have coins to spare, stones work equally well... As for weighing the good merits of Microshaft, well it's all relative isn't it? For everything they do good, there's a bunch of things they've done on the way, whether it was muscling someone else out of the market, or just making it even easier for virus writers to attack us. At the end of the day, everyone will weigh this out on both their own experience and what they've heard. If the majority of what is said about them is bad, well, no smoke without fire and all that... Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Sep 17, 2008, at 3:24 PM, Stut wrote: On 16 Sep 2008, at 23:54, tedd wrote: At 7:40 PM +0100 9/16/08, Stut wrote: On 16 Sep 2008, at 15:59, tedd wrote: Snail-mail spam relies upon the same basic fact that electronic spam does... everyone hates it until it offers them something they want. Unfortunately in most cases it happens often enough to be profitable. Oh, and because everyone's doing it these days there doesn't seem to be any noticeable effect on a company's reputation which is unfortunate. I like what you said right here stut... It's only junk until someone hits the nail on the head with it! Maybe 9 out of 10 people don't need another credit card... but it's that 1 person they do it for. Average response rates to direct mail marketing campaigns are about 2% being considered good. It's possible that if more people returned it, possible with some extra weight they might stop, but I don't see it happening. You might have better luck getting removed if you mark the envelope "No longer at this address" rather than writing a rant. They're less likely to continue sending you stuff if they don't think you're there anymore. I do the same with spam email using the bounce feature in Apple Mail and it's worked pretty well both on and offline. As the resident direct mail specialist on this list... :) I can say that the amount of mail that is returned to the customer won't affect in any way shape or form how much mail they send out. Presumably they are working of a rented list where you can get any info you could possible ever think of... I registered a domain and not more then 1 month later I had a business credit card offer from Capitol One... Who is the largest direct mailer in the US. I barely even had a crappy site up before that happened! :) And as far as returning the mail to them in their envelopes, it doesn't cost that much... $500/year for the permit, per piece returned fee + Weighted first class rate... All in all, not that big of a deal :) But what ever makes you happy! :) -- Jason Pruim Raoset Inc. Technology Manager MQC Specialist 11287 James St Holland, MI 49424 www.raoset.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On 16 Sep 2008, at 23:54, tedd wrote: At 7:40 PM +0100 9/16/08, Stut wrote: On 16 Sep 2008, at 15:59, tedd wrote: Then one day, M$ sent out notice that they would no longer support QuickBasic and that was the end of that. All of our current, and past work, was on a dead-end street. We were left to fend for ourselves. I don't mean any disrespect but devoting your livelihood on a technology with a single provider is probably not the smartest move you've made. No offense taken and what you say at face value is true. However, that was a past lifetime -- how smart were you 20 years ago? I was 11 so it's kinda hard to tell, but I remember thinking I was doing ok ;) And I didn't really devote MY livelihood to one technology nor industry for that matter -- never have. That's the reason why I have several businesses going concurrently. I just wished one of them would hit the log-ball so I could retire and program for a hobby. Don't we all! It's not nice for Microsoft to have pulled support for it but they're a business and they made that decision because they didn't see a profitable future there, they weren't out to screw you. Of course they were not out to screw me, but even if they were, that's not relevant. I think the important point here is that if you create a development product which requires others to have faith in you, then you also inherent a responsibility to those who have invested their time into helping you secure your product. Software development is a symbiotic relationship. Indeed it is, but in any one to many arrangement the first to go is the smallest. My guess would be that QuickBasic was *the* smallest in terms of user base. If you want to pull the plug and cut that relationship, that's your choice. But that action comes with a cost. From my perspective, M$ is just reaping what it sowed. I just love the way everyone ignores all the good they've done and focuses on the evil. With so many customers/users do you really expect them to be able to keep them all happy? Seriously? If you feel you need to hold a grudge, by all means do so, but I personally have grown out of name-calling and stick to logical argument instead. Does wonders for my BP! Besides, grant me my windmills to tilt. Gimme a sec to mount my trusty steed. Imagine if PHP suddenly stopped development and you had to find a different language (i.e., ruby). Sure we could all do it, but we picked this language for a reason and now we have to choose again -- and perhaps that choice was our second choice. I don't like being forced to settle for my second choice. Speaking only for myself I would have no problem with it at all, for a few reasons... I've been there before and survived -- like you, I have numerous languages under my belt -- in fact they all look the same to me now. So, that wouldn't be a big problem, just an annoying one. While I have no faith of which to speak in anything except science, I try to live by the philosophy set out in the serenity prayer. It's worked pretty well for me so far. Now, should have M$ continued to support a product that wasn't making sufficient money for them? I dunno, but I don't care either -- they screwed with my life and I'll spend the rest of it calling M$, M$. That's your choice, but don't take offence when I say that's changed my opinion of you somewhat. No offense taken, but if your opinion of me has changed over that, be advised I've done far worse than name calling. I realize that you take the high-road on things like this -- I respect that -- that used to be my practice as well. It's very predicable from a business perspective. But times change and I kind of like telling people what I really think -- somewhat like the member of the family who no longer cares if he farts in public -- if you get the drift. I have no issue with people giving their opinion, but to do so with childish (IMHO) name-calling makes the reasonable argument, if there is one, much harder to take seriously. Similarly, I had a run-in with American Express over 30 years ago and even to this day I return all their sales promotion in their self-addressed no-postage envelope they provide. Over the years, I suspect they have paid postage for over 100 pounds of profitless correspondence and the time for their staff to examine it. You're not alone in doing this, but how much a dent do you really think you've made in their profits? It's like spam, if it wasn't worth doing they wouldn't do it. Your efforts would be better spent trying to get your address blacklisted... or learning Scala! Well... that was the idea, to get blacklisted. Just about every thing I sent back had my address on it and included a message which basically said "This what I think of your service and you just paid the postage for me to say it. Now take me off your list!" But, it hasn't happened yet
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Sep 16, 2008, at 6:26 PM, tedd wrote: At 8:11 PM +0100 9/16/08, Ashley Sheridan wrote: Would it be totally off topic if everyone were to say what their favourite OS was and why? I'm just a little curious as to what OS's people use in this field. Obviously, mine is Mac and OSX 10.4.11. My next one will be whatever is the top of the line Apple has at the time I have to money for it. The question is... why aren't you on 10.5.4? I never miss an update... =D ~Philip -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 20:11 +0100, Ashley Sheridan wrote: > > Would it be totally off topic if everyone were to say what their > favourite OS was and why? I'm just a little curious as to what OS's > people use in this field. I originally started using Linux 8 years ago at my first job out of school. At that time I was using Debian. At home though I started playing around with Mandrake. Over time though I liked Mandrake less and less and Finally moved to Ubuntu about 3 years ago for my desktop. I haven't looked back since I find the apt repositories have plenty of bleeding edge stuff while I can still compile whatever else I need from source. For server side stuff though, I still find myself leaning towards Debian although I'm quite at home using Red Hat, Fedora, and Cent OS also. Ultimately though, I have to say I much prefer apt over yum. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
Ashley Sheridan wrote: Would it be totally off topic if everyone were to say what their favourite OS was and why? I'm just a little curious as to what OS's people use in this field. Well I've been using various flavours of Linux since uni where it was used in most to the labs. It was a RH version and as I started playing with it on my own PCs I opted for a RH derivative that gaining momentum at the time, Mandrake. I've been using it ever since with little forrays into Fedora, Ubuntu and Suse land. For me Mandriva is an ideal distro. It's secure, business orientated but still very desktop friendly. The people involved are excellent and the community is both very supportive and fun (similar feeling to this list). For me a linux distro is not all about having the latest and greatest packages shoved at you whenever they are available. To me the job of the distro is to have defined cycles and defined distribution channels. While they have their place, having random repositories of packages is IMO not a good idea. Different people package things in different ways and with different names etc. which can make upgrading difficult when official packages conflict with third party ones. So the Mandriva system for me works best. I can use happily in my home computing life and I can deploy it to the network of machines in my office without worry. I have a lot of time of OSX, but I like to fiddle and break and be different, and OSX doesn't give me quite what I want in that respect. Windows? Nah. -- Colin Guthrie gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mandriva Linux Contributor [http://www.mandriva.com/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:11:22 +0100, Ashley Sheridan wrote: >Would it be totally off topic if everyone were to say what their >favourite OS was and why? I'm just a little curious as to what OS's >people use in this field. Likely yes, but: Fedora 9 works nicely for me and SWMBO. Essentially though, any Linux with a decent desktop manager would do. I just wish I could find a Linux-native data modelling tool I liked, then I could ditch WinXP for all except testing in IE! :) (actually, not quite true; some customers manage to create incredible concoctions in Microsoft Word that just don't come across right in any Linux word processor, so I still need to open up Microsoft Word occasionally) -- Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia "Let the laddie play wi the knife - he'll learn" - The Wee Book of Calvin -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
At 8:11 PM +0100 9/16/08, Ashley Sheridan wrote: Would it be totally off topic if everyone were to say what their favourite OS was and why? I'm just a little curious as to what OS's people use in this field. Obviously, mine is Mac and OSX 10.4.11. My next one will be whatever is the top of the line Apple has at the time I have to money for it. Why? Long story -- I won't go into my pre-Apple days building various computers, but I started my relationship with Apple in 1977 when I bought a mail order a 16k integer Apple ][. I wrote a lot of software for the critter as it evolved over the years. I bought my first Mac in 1984, and have continued with Mac's ever since. My current system provides me with everything I want better than any development system I have had before -- and I've had many. I don't want to change to something else, because this works great for me and until I'm faced with something I can't do, then I'll continue the current course. But another consideration -- I watched the micro-computer industry change from "kids in a garage" wanting to show the world what they can do -- to the world's largest corporations maximizing profits. Sure the "kids in a garage" have matured and care about profits like any other business, but they still seem to want to show people what they can do rather than maximizing profits. There appears to be a difference, at least to me. So, partly what I have chosen is not only based upon on how stable the platform is, and what it can do for me, but what I perceive the parent company to be. Call it naive if you want, maybe I'm just a treckie who doesn't know any better, or some washed up has-been -- but -- I've done some amazing things in programming efforts by simply not knowing better and relying on Apple to do their part. Thus far, they haven't let me down -- at least from a product point of view. With respect to management, advertising, and establishing their product as their product should be, they suck! How someone can lose the market share to a problem prone second rate product is beyond me -- but, that's another topic. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 18:54 -0400, tedd wrote: > > I realize that you take the high-road on things like this -- I > respect that -- that used to be my practice as well. It's very > predicable from a business perspective. But times change and I kind > of like telling people what I really think -- somewhat like the > member of the family who no longer cares if he farts in public -- if > you get the drift. Mother of Mercy... it's drifitng over here!! LIGHT A MATCH! :B Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
At 7:40 PM +0100 9/16/08, Stut wrote: On 16 Sep 2008, at 15:59, tedd wrote: Then one day, M$ sent out notice that they would no longer support QuickBasic and that was the end of that. All of our current, and past work, was on a dead-end street. We were left to fend for ourselves. I don't mean any disrespect but devoting your livelihood on a technology with a single provider is probably not the smartest move you've made. No offense taken and what you say at face value is true. However, that was a past lifetime -- how smart were you 20 years ago? And I didn't really devote MY livelihood to one technology nor industry for that matter -- never have. That's the reason why I have several businesses going concurrently. I just wished one of them would hit the log-ball so I could retire and program for a hobby. --- It's not nice for Microsoft to have pulled support for it but they're a business and they made that decision because they didn't see a profitable future there, they weren't out to screw you. Of course they were not out to screw me, but even if they were, that's not relevant. I think the important point here is that if you create a development product which requires others to have faith in you, then you also inherent a responsibility to those who have invested their time into helping you secure your product. Software development is a symbiotic relationship. If you want to pull the plug and cut that relationship, that's your choice. But that action comes with a cost. From my perspective, M$ is just reaping what it sowed. Besides, grant me my windmills to tilt. --- Imagine if PHP suddenly stopped development and you had to find a different language (i.e., ruby). Sure we could all do it, but we picked this language for a reason and now we have to choose again -- and perhaps that choice was our second choice. I don't like being forced to settle for my second choice. Speaking only for myself I would have no problem with it at all, for a few reasons... I've been there before and survived -- like you, I have numerous languages under my belt -- in fact they all look the same to me now. So, that wouldn't be a big problem, just an annoying one. --- Now, should have M$ continued to support a product that wasn't making sufficient money for them? I dunno, but I don't care either -- they screwed with my life and I'll spend the rest of it calling M$, M$. That's your choice, but don't take offence when I say that's changed my opinion of you somewhat. No offense taken, but if your opinion of me has changed over that, be advised I've done far worse than name calling. I realize that you take the high-road on things like this -- I respect that -- that used to be my practice as well. It's very predicable from a business perspective. But times change and I kind of like telling people what I really think -- somewhat like the member of the family who no longer cares if he farts in public -- if you get the drift. --- Similarly, I had a run-in with American Express over 30 years ago and even to this day I return all their sales promotion in their self-addressed no-postage envelope they provide. Over the years, I suspect they have paid postage for over 100 pounds of profitless correspondence and the time for their staff to examine it. You're not alone in doing this, but how much a dent do you really think you've made in their profits? It's like spam, if it wasn't worth doing they wouldn't do it. Your efforts would be better spent trying to get your address blacklisted... or learning Scala! Well... that was the idea, to get blacklisted. Just about every thing I sent back had my address on it and included a message which basically said "This what I think of your service and you just paid the postage for me to say it. Now take me off your list!" But, it hasn't happened yet. How much has it cost them? I could estimate, but I'm sure the total amount wouldn't be substantial. However, if everyone did what I do, then spam mail would halt pretty quick. Companies don't like spending more than they take in on anything. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
> -Original Message- > From: tedd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2008 10:06 AM > To: Stut; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: Philip Thompson; PHP General list > Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet > Explorer 8 beater 2 > > At 11:30 PM +0100 9/15/08, Stut wrote: > >Wow, talk about hitting the nail on the head. When Microsoft pick > >the hardware their OS runs on and the software it runs with it works > >perfectly. > > Not exactly. > > I seem to remember when Gates gave a presentation at Mac World and > his slide show locked up. I actually felt sorry for the guy, but I > had a cookie and the feeling passed. I read a hilarious article not too long ago (just before Gates stepped down as CEO.. or maybe after, but before he completely cut corporate ties with MSFT) about Bill Gates' end user experience with Windows XP. Needless to say: he was pissed off. Nothing worked like he wanted it to, and he had to download 8 extra software packages and STILL didn't wind up getting what he wanted (Windows Movie Maker). I found it on Fark, maybe I can track it down again. Fantastic read. Todd Boyd Web Programmer -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 16:50 -0400, Bastien Koert wrote: > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Ashley Sheridan > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > > > On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 15:04 -0400, Eric Butera wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Ashley Sheridan > > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 11:26 -0400, tedd wrote: > > > >> At 11:57 PM +0100 9/15/08, Ashley Sheridan wrote: > > > >> >I agree on your point about trying before bashing. I've tried Vista. > > > >> >Hell, I had to use it for 2 months solid while I was working in > > India, > > > >> >so I really got to test it out. I had more crashes on that in the 2 > > > >> >months I was using it than I had on Fedora in 2 years. Now, > > admittedly I > > > >> >was working on Vista during every working hour, and I only use my > > Fedora > > > >> >machine at weekends and evenings, but I think if you tally up the > > total > > > >> >time, it was really not in Windows' favour. As an OS, XP was not all > > > >> >that bad, but I've found I really do prefer the way Linux behaves, > > that > > > >> >and I can get pretty much whatever software I want for free, which > > just > > > >> >isn't always so easy with Windows. > > > >> > > > >> I spend at least 10 to 12 hours per day (including weekends) working > > > >> on my machine and I've been running my current Mac for over 6 years > > > >> with my Mac experience dating back to 1984 (the original 128k Mac, > > > >> which I still have). > > > >> > > > >> In the last 6 years, I remember my current Mac locking up only once > > > >> and that was on start-up after I had installed additional drive. I > > > >> had to hold the "on" button to get it to shut down. But, the next > > > >> boot was uneventful. > > > >> > > > >> Yet people think that the occasional crash is acceptable when working > > > >> with computers. I can only say, they must not be Mac people. > > > >> > > > >> Cheers, > > > >> > > > >> tedd > > > >> > > > >> -- > > > >> --- > > > >> http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com > > > >> > > > > I rarely get any crashes with Linux, probably about the same as my > > > > flatmate gets, on his Mac. Both are very stable and secure, which is > > > > what you want from an OS. The OS is there to make your life easier, not > > > > to get in the way with dozens of warning message, blockades and > > > > workarounds. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ash > > > > www.ashleysheridan.co.uk > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > > > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I regularly use Windows XP & Vista, OS X, and Ubuntu. All three do > > > exactly what I ask of them without crashes or errors. I use them on a > > > variety of different hardware too. Unfortunately in the year 2008 no > > > operating system is the ultimate solution for my needs. I do have > > > lots of opinions good and bad on each of them. I would say that > > > Ubuntu is my favorite though. > > > > > > Would it be totally off topic if everyone were to say what their > > favourite OS was and why? I'm just a little curious as to what OS's > > people use in this field. > > > > > > Ash > > www.ashleysheridan.co.uk > > > > To paraphrase > > " You are about to insult Microsoft. Cancel or Allow?" > Hmm, not sure, both ways lead to a General Protection Fault... Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 3:11 PM, Ashley Sheridan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: > On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 15:04 -0400, Eric Butera wrote: > > > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Ashley Sheridan > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 11:26 -0400, tedd wrote: > > >> At 11:57 PM +0100 9/15/08, Ashley Sheridan wrote: > > >> >I agree on your point about trying before bashing. I've tried Vista. > > >> >Hell, I had to use it for 2 months solid while I was working in > India, > > >> >so I really got to test it out. I had more crashes on that in the 2 > > >> >months I was using it than I had on Fedora in 2 years. Now, > admittedly I > > >> >was working on Vista during every working hour, and I only use my > Fedora > > >> >machine at weekends and evenings, but I think if you tally up the > total > > >> >time, it was really not in Windows' favour. As an OS, XP was not all > > >> >that bad, but I've found I really do prefer the way Linux behaves, > that > > >> >and I can get pretty much whatever software I want for free, which > just > > >> >isn't always so easy with Windows. > > >> > > >> I spend at least 10 to 12 hours per day (including weekends) working > > >> on my machine and I've been running my current Mac for over 6 years > > >> with my Mac experience dating back to 1984 (the original 128k Mac, > > >> which I still have). > > >> > > >> In the last 6 years, I remember my current Mac locking up only once > > >> and that was on start-up after I had installed additional drive. I > > >> had to hold the "on" button to get it to shut down. But, the next > > >> boot was uneventful. > > >> > > >> Yet people think that the occasional crash is acceptable when working > > >> with computers. I can only say, they must not be Mac people. > > >> > > >> Cheers, > > >> > > >> tedd > > >> > > >> -- > > >> --- > > >> http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com > > >> > > > I rarely get any crashes with Linux, probably about the same as my > > > flatmate gets, on his Mac. Both are very stable and secure, which is > > > what you want from an OS. The OS is there to make your life easier, not > > > to get in the way with dozens of warning message, blockades and > > > workarounds. > > > > > > > > > Ash > > > www.ashleysheridan.co.uk > > > > > > > > > -- > > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > > > > > I regularly use Windows XP & Vista, OS X, and Ubuntu. All three do > > exactly what I ask of them without crashes or errors. I use them on a > > variety of different hardware too. Unfortunately in the year 2008 no > > operating system is the ultimate solution for my needs. I do have > > lots of opinions good and bad on each of them. I would say that > > Ubuntu is my favorite though. > > > Would it be totally off topic if everyone were to say what their > favourite OS was and why? I'm just a little curious as to what OS's > people use in this field. > > > Ash > www.ashleysheridan.co.uk > To paraphrase " You are about to insult Microsoft. Cancel or Allow?" -- Bastien Cat, the other other white meat
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 15:04 -0400, Eric Butera wrote: > On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Ashley Sheridan > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 11:26 -0400, tedd wrote: > >> At 11:57 PM +0100 9/15/08, Ashley Sheridan wrote: > >> >I agree on your point about trying before bashing. I've tried Vista. > >> >Hell, I had to use it for 2 months solid while I was working in India, > >> >so I really got to test it out. I had more crashes on that in the 2 > >> >months I was using it than I had on Fedora in 2 years. Now, admittedly I > >> >was working on Vista during every working hour, and I only use my Fedora > >> >machine at weekends and evenings, but I think if you tally up the total > >> >time, it was really not in Windows' favour. As an OS, XP was not all > >> >that bad, but I've found I really do prefer the way Linux behaves, that > >> >and I can get pretty much whatever software I want for free, which just > >> >isn't always so easy with Windows. > >> > >> I spend at least 10 to 12 hours per day (including weekends) working > >> on my machine and I've been running my current Mac for over 6 years > >> with my Mac experience dating back to 1984 (the original 128k Mac, > >> which I still have). > >> > >> In the last 6 years, I remember my current Mac locking up only once > >> and that was on start-up after I had installed additional drive. I > >> had to hold the "on" button to get it to shut down. But, the next > >> boot was uneventful. > >> > >> Yet people think that the occasional crash is acceptable when working > >> with computers. I can only say, they must not be Mac people. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> tedd > >> > >> -- > >> --- > >> http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com > >> > > I rarely get any crashes with Linux, probably about the same as my > > flatmate gets, on his Mac. Both are very stable and secure, which is > > what you want from an OS. The OS is there to make your life easier, not > > to get in the way with dozens of warning message, blockades and > > workarounds. > > > > > > Ash > > www.ashleysheridan.co.uk > > > > > > -- > > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > > > > > I regularly use Windows XP & Vista, OS X, and Ubuntu. All three do > exactly what I ask of them without crashes or errors. I use them on a > variety of different hardware too. Unfortunately in the year 2008 no > operating system is the ultimate solution for my needs. I do have > lots of opinions good and bad on each of them. I would say that > Ubuntu is my favorite though. Would it be totally off topic if everyone were to say what their favourite OS was and why? I'm just a little curious as to what OS's people use in this field. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Ashley Sheridan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 11:26 -0400, tedd wrote: >> At 11:57 PM +0100 9/15/08, Ashley Sheridan wrote: >> >I agree on your point about trying before bashing. I've tried Vista. >> >Hell, I had to use it for 2 months solid while I was working in India, >> >so I really got to test it out. I had more crashes on that in the 2 >> >months I was using it than I had on Fedora in 2 years. Now, admittedly I >> >was working on Vista during every working hour, and I only use my Fedora >> >machine at weekends and evenings, but I think if you tally up the total >> >time, it was really not in Windows' favour. As an OS, XP was not all >> >that bad, but I've found I really do prefer the way Linux behaves, that >> >and I can get pretty much whatever software I want for free, which just >> >isn't always so easy with Windows. >> >> I spend at least 10 to 12 hours per day (including weekends) working >> on my machine and I've been running my current Mac for over 6 years >> with my Mac experience dating back to 1984 (the original 128k Mac, >> which I still have). >> >> In the last 6 years, I remember my current Mac locking up only once >> and that was on start-up after I had installed additional drive. I >> had to hold the "on" button to get it to shut down. But, the next >> boot was uneventful. >> >> Yet people think that the occasional crash is acceptable when working >> with computers. I can only say, they must not be Mac people. >> >> Cheers, >> >> tedd >> >> -- >> --- >> http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com >> > I rarely get any crashes with Linux, probably about the same as my > flatmate gets, on his Mac. Both are very stable and secure, which is > what you want from an OS. The OS is there to make your life easier, not > to get in the way with dozens of warning message, blockades and > workarounds. > > > Ash > www.ashleysheridan.co.uk > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > I regularly use Windows XP & Vista, OS X, and Ubuntu. All three do exactly what I ask of them without crashes or errors. I use them on a variety of different hardware too. Unfortunately in the year 2008 no operating system is the ultimate solution for my needs. I do have lots of opinions good and bad on each of them. I would say that Ubuntu is my favorite though. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 11:26 -0400, tedd wrote: > At 11:57 PM +0100 9/15/08, Ashley Sheridan wrote: > >I agree on your point about trying before bashing. I've tried Vista. > >Hell, I had to use it for 2 months solid while I was working in India, > >so I really got to test it out. I had more crashes on that in the 2 > >months I was using it than I had on Fedora in 2 years. Now, admittedly I > >was working on Vista during every working hour, and I only use my Fedora > >machine at weekends and evenings, but I think if you tally up the total > >time, it was really not in Windows' favour. As an OS, XP was not all > >that bad, but I've found I really do prefer the way Linux behaves, that > >and I can get pretty much whatever software I want for free, which just > >isn't always so easy with Windows. > > I spend at least 10 to 12 hours per day (including weekends) working > on my machine and I've been running my current Mac for over 6 years > with my Mac experience dating back to 1984 (the original 128k Mac, > which I still have). > > In the last 6 years, I remember my current Mac locking up only once > and that was on start-up after I had installed additional drive. I > had to hold the "on" button to get it to shut down. But, the next > boot was uneventful. > > Yet people think that the occasional crash is acceptable when working > with computers. I can only say, they must not be Mac people. > > Cheers, > > tedd > > -- > --- > http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com > I rarely get any crashes with Linux, probably about the same as my flatmate gets, on his Mac. Both are very stable and secure, which is what you want from an OS. The OS is there to make your life easier, not to get in the way with dozens of warning message, blockades and workarounds. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 10:59 -0400, tedd wrote: > Similarly, I had a run-in with American Express over 30 years ago and > even to this day I return all their sales promotion in their > self-addressed no-postage envelope they provide. Over the years, I > suspect they have paid postage for over 100 pounds of profitless > correspondence and the time for their staff to examine it. I do the same with all that sort of post, but I recently found en evil use for all of that spare change in the form of 1p's and 2p's... Funnily enough, I've not had much for a while... Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On 16 Sep 2008, at 15:59, tedd wrote: At 9:53 PM +0100 9/15/08, Stut wrote: As for Microsoft (will people please stop screwing with their name, it's impolite), they've certainly made some bad choices over the years and Windows has suffered for it. I screw with the M$ name because I don't like them! It's not due to their questionable business practices that ultimately ended Gates in front of Congress answering questions; or running Netscape out of business; or the hundreds of other instances of them being a dick, but rather what they did to *me*. You see, many years ago M$ developed and provided QuickBasic for the Mac. Myself and hundreds of other developers devoted our livelihoods to that product. Then one day, M$ sent out notice that they would no longer support QuickBasic and that was the end of that. All of our current, and past work, was on a dead-end street. We were left to fend for ourselves. I don't mean any disrespect but devoting your livelihood on a technology with a single provider is probably not the smartest move you've made. It's not nice for Microsoft to have pulled support for it but they're a business and they made that decision because they didn't see a profitable future there, they weren't out to screw you. Imagine if PHP suddenly stopped development and you had to find a different language (i.e., ruby). Sure we could all do it, but we picked this language for a reason and now we have to choose again -- and perhaps that choice was our second choice. I don't like being forced to settle for my second choice. Speaking only for myself I would have no problem with it at all, for a few reasons... 1) PHP is open source so the chances of development stopping dead is highly unlikely even if Zend were to cease to be. 2) PHP is not my strongest language, and it definitely isn't the only language I know. I work hard to make sure I'm up with current developments in C/C++, C#, Ruby and a number of other languages. I've recently started learning Scala. I've also engineered my career so it involves more than one core language/technology at any one time so my CV stays fresh and my options stay plentiful. 3) I have no real preference for a particular language or technology. Throughout my career I've had the attitude that the method of software engineering is far more important than the tools. I feel confident that I could apply my skills using any language, something that's been tested a few times over the years. Now, should have M$ continued to support a product that wasn't making sufficient money for them? I dunno, but I don't care either -- they screwed with my life and I'll spend the rest of it calling M $, M$. That's your choice, but don't take offence when I say that's changed my opinion of you somewhat. Similarly, I had a run-in with American Express over 30 years ago and even to this day I return all their sales promotion in their self-addressed no-postage envelope they provide. Over the years, I suspect they have paid postage for over 100 pounds of profitless correspondence and the time for their staff to examine it. You're not alone in doing this, but how much a dent do you really think you've made in their profits? It's like spam, if it wasn't worth doing they wouldn't do it. Your efforts would be better spent trying to get your address blacklisted... or learning Scala! Now, do I have problems? Perhaps, but I'm happy. :-) Good for you. -Stut -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On 16 Sep 2008, at 16:06, tedd wrote: At 11:30 PM +0100 9/15/08, Stut wrote: Wow, talk about hitting the nail on the head. When Microsoft pick the hardware their OS runs on and the software it runs with it works perfectly. Not exactly. I seem to remember when Gates gave a presentation at Mac World and his slide show locked up. I actually felt sorry for the guy, but I had a cookie and the feeling passed. You're making the huge assumption that they chose the hardware on that occasion, something that is in no way reasonable to do in my opinion. -Stut -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
At 4:41 PM +0100 9/16/08, Colin Guthrie wrote: tedd wrote: Imagine if PHP suddenly stopped development and you had to find a different language (i.e., ruby). Sure we could all do it, but we picked this language for a reason and now we have to choose again -- and perhaps that choice was our second choice. I don't like being forced to settle for my second choice. Careful Tedd... that came perilously close to being on-topic again there! :p /me hides for playing no small part in stretching out this thread... Col LOL !!! My meandering often makes wide circles but usually returns to the point. My first and second posts to a thread are usually on topic. But if it takes more than that, then something went horribly wrong. My post are like salt and pepper. You can't make a whole meal of them, but they're nice to have around to spice things up. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
At 8:42 AM +0100 9/16/08, Colin Guthrie wrote: tedd wrote: 3. wasn't something I was going to work on -- not because I refused to do it for her but rather because I refuse to work with windozes -- period. In this case I would have blitzed windows and slapped on distro of choice> instread (see below for *my* choice :)) I've done this recently... a friend aquired a tablet PC thing. It didn't let him in as it came with some XP+admin password and while I could have just made windows work, there were no apps on it and he only wanted it for surfing the web from his sofa... so the simple answer there is: put linux on it! Personally, if I have to help out someone who has a niche little computer or a niche need, it's a no brainer these days. Linux isn't hard to use, and if I have to help out my friends every couple years doing an upgrade than so be it. It's a price I pay gladly for making my life far less painful in the meantime! Co: Yes, but this is where I lack the experience you have. All of the above you say is foreign to me. My abilities (if any) are to be found elsewhere. I know how to set Mac's up -- actually that's not an accomplishment because you don't have to do anything, so there's nothing complicated about that -- you just need to explain to people how to use them. I often set the elderly (yes, there are people older than me) up with Mac's so they can email one another and "surf" the net. The biggest problem I've encountered with older-than-me types is having them RTM -- they simply don't want to do it! So the more obvious things are, the better it is and I've found Macs to be more obvious and easier for the elderly to use. Many years ago (circa 1987) I created a survey about computer usage and sent it to over 10,000 companies world-wide. I received about a 12 percent return -- this was an outstanding return because 2 percent is common. I think the survey hit a nerve. One of the questions I asked on the survey was "On a scale of 1-10, should a computer be as easy to use as a telephone?" I sorted the answers per age and found the older you are, the more you want the computer to be as easy to use as a telephone. There were a lot of interesting things that came from that survey and I published my results in the AAPG. But the point here was there are differences between how people use computers and how useful computers are -- it's almost a clique that Mac's are easier and my experience supports that. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
tedd wrote: Imagine if PHP suddenly stopped development and you had to find a different language (i.e., ruby). Sure we could all do it, but we picked this language for a reason and now we have to choose again -- and perhaps that choice was our second choice. I don't like being forced to settle for my second choice. Careful Tedd... that came perilously close to being on-topic again there! :p /me hides for playing no small part in stretching out this thread... Col -- Colin Guthrie gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mandriva Linux Contributor [http://www.mandriva.com/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
At 11:57 PM +0100 9/15/08, Ashley Sheridan wrote: I agree on your point about trying before bashing. I've tried Vista. Hell, I had to use it for 2 months solid while I was working in India, so I really got to test it out. I had more crashes on that in the 2 months I was using it than I had on Fedora in 2 years. Now, admittedly I was working on Vista during every working hour, and I only use my Fedora machine at weekends and evenings, but I think if you tally up the total time, it was really not in Windows' favour. As an OS, XP was not all that bad, but I've found I really do prefer the way Linux behaves, that and I can get pretty much whatever software I want for free, which just isn't always so easy with Windows. I spend at least 10 to 12 hours per day (including weekends) working on my machine and I've been running my current Mac for over 6 years with my Mac experience dating back to 1984 (the original 128k Mac, which I still have). In the last 6 years, I remember my current Mac locking up only once and that was on start-up after I had installed additional drive. I had to hold the "on" button to get it to shut down. But, the next boot was uneventful. Yet people think that the occasional crash is acceptable when working with computers. I can only say, they must not be Mac people. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
At 11:30 PM +0100 9/15/08, Stut wrote: Wow, talk about hitting the nail on the head. When Microsoft pick the hardware their OS runs on and the software it runs with it works perfectly. Not exactly. I seem to remember when Gates gave a presentation at Mac World and his slide show locked up. I actually felt sorry for the guy, but I had a cookie and the feeling passed. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
At 9:53 PM +0100 9/15/08, Stut wrote: As for Microsoft (will people please stop screwing with their name, it's impolite), they've certainly made some bad choices over the years and Windows has suffered for it. I screw with the M$ name because I don't like them! It's not due to their questionable business practices that ultimately ended Gates in front of Congress answering questions; or running Netscape out of business; or the hundreds of other instances of them being a dick, but rather what they did to *me*. You see, many years ago M$ developed and provided QuickBasic for the Mac. Myself and hundreds of other developers devoted our livelihoods to that product. Then one day, M$ sent out notice that they would no longer support QuickBasic and that was the end of that. All of our current, and past work, was on a dead-end street. We were left to fend for ourselves. Imagine if PHP suddenly stopped development and you had to find a different language (i.e., ruby). Sure we could all do it, but we picked this language for a reason and now we have to choose again -- and perhaps that choice was our second choice. I don't like being forced to settle for my second choice. Now, should have M$ continued to support a product that wasn't making sufficient money for them? I dunno, but I don't care either -- they screwed with my life and I'll spend the rest of it calling M$, M$. Similarly, I had a run-in with American Express over 30 years ago and even to this day I return all their sales promotion in their self-addressed no-postage envelope they provide. Over the years, I suspect they have paid postage for over 100 pounds of profitless correspondence and the time for their staff to examine it. Now, do I have problems? Perhaps, but I'm happy. :-) Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
At 10:35 PM +0100 9/15/08, Ashley Sheridan wrote: Ah I'd heard of this story. What you've forgotten to mention was that the computers were all set up on hardware chosen by Microsoft, and all running software especially picked by Microsoft. Now, I'd hazard a guess that even Microsoft is smart enough to pick a combination that is extremely unlikely to crash on the end user. I'd love to see the same test on the same people set up by Mac people and Linux gurus. I think that as this is not really a fair test, you can pretty much get any answer you want. Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk Of course, when it's your dime, you present things the way you like. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
At 4:27 PM -0500 9/15/08, Philip Thompson wrote: Has anyone seen the new M$ commercial where they are asking these people to review the next version of their OS. Some of the responses of the people were that they really thought this new OS was cool/neat/whatever. Then afterwards, M$ told them it was Vista. Yes, I saw that commercial. It's one of those type of commercials that if you like the product, you'll like the commercial -- if you don't, then you'll find fault with it. I look at the commercial as M$'s attempt to try to patch up a failing product. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
Wow, anyone could be mistaken for thinking you two were Microshaft employees... Vista sucks because: * it uses far more memory than it should, even with the visual effects turned off * IE7 on Vista is more flaky than IE7 on XP FACT! * The registry hacks to get around the draconian limits on Vista are not easily applied for all users * It's a battle trying to edit what it thinks are system files, even if they're not * It doesn't really offer all that much over XP And I even have one for IE7 if you really want to hear it: * They've moved all the buttons around to a non-standard layout (hmm, remind me of Office 2007) * They changed the rendering method *again* * Still no support for some really standard CSS * For a browser with half the components in memory, it still takes too long to start up * More security holes than any other browser I'd go on, but I don't want to write a university thesis... Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk --- Begin Message --- On Sep 12, 2008, at 10:18 AM, Boyd, Todd M. wrote: -Original Message- From: Sancar Saran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:15 PM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2 Because, M$ earning money from Win GUI. No WinGUI no money. From the begining, M$ try to broke web compatibilty in every way... Sure M$ has bad records about software quality. But even ask yourself. WHY IE (especially 5 and 6) SO buggy even M$ standards. M$ isn't mr nice guy and they wont get a dime from web. They hate web and internet from begining. M$ is anti web IT company. They are too big they are to bold (or bald) to accept changing market and they got too much money on bank to do someting very very stupid. Like Windows VISTA. Don't expect anything good from M$... Okay... here it goes. I'm sick and tired of people talking trash on Windows Vista. It came pre-installed on my laptop (Home Premium... not Business Pro, sadly) and I haven't had any issues with it whatsoever. Some of my WinXP programs don't show up in the start menu when they're installed... but it's not Microsoft's fault that software companies haven't taken the initiative to adapt to the new Vista framework (which, let's be honest, can't require all that much effort in most cases where base-level operating system stuff isn't involved in the actual program). Annoyed with the UAC that asks you to confirm every administrative decision you make on your computer? Quit being a weenie and just automate it with RegEdit (or, if you're using Business, there is an explicit option for it in the Control Panel). Annoyed with all the bells and whistles in the Aero theme that is installed by default? Don't use it! I remember the first time I installed a Linux distro that came pre-bundled with KDE... I took the time to remove all the fading, transparency, window animations, bouncing cursors, etc. (actually, I just switched to XFCE instead). I don't see the difference. If you want to get high and mighty with a retort about rolling your own Linux distribution--well, you've just sailed far beyond ANY pre-packaged OS (Mac, Windows, Linux, or otherwise) and the point is moot. Find a new scapegoat to complain about, PLEASE. Bitch about WebKit's lack of XMLDOM instantiation. Bitch about Google launching pay-for- play high resolution satellite imagery. Bitch about the Xandros EEE being squashed by Intel. Bitch about Facebook's API and their draconic limitations on markup language and Javascript... but this "Vista sucks and I won't comment as to why" broken record has run its course. Have a lovely day! Todd Boyd Web Programmer Three Votes Todd!! In total agreement. I've been meaning to make a similar post & statement not just here (in PHP mailing list), but in an abundant number of places all across the Internet horizon. And My PC didn't come bundled with Vista, in fact, I actually Upgraded from XP personally & manually. I have no stock options in Microsoft, and I have nothing personal with them - Just another commodity user/customer. And I couldn't have said it any better. Cheers! --- Rahul Sitaram Johari Founder, Internet Architects Group, Inc. [Email] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Web] http://www.rahulsjohari.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php --- End Message --- -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 09:18 -0500, Boyd, Todd M. wrote: > > > Okay... here it goes. I'm sick and tired of people talking trash on > Windows Vista. It came pre-installed on my laptop (Home Premium... not > Business Pro, sadly) and I haven't had any issues with it whatsoever. > Some of my WinXP programs don't show up in the start menu when they're > installed... but it's not Microsoft's fault that software companies > haven't taken the initiative to adapt to the new Vista framework > (which, let's be honest, can't require all that much effort in most > cases where base-level operating system stuff isn't involved in the > actual program). > > Annoyed with the UAC that asks you to confirm every administrative > decision you make on your computer? Quit being a weenie and just > automate it with RegEdit (or, if you're using Business, there is an > explicit option for it in the Control Panel). > > Annoyed with all the bells and whistles in the Aero theme that is > installed by default? Don't use it! I remember the first time I > installed a Linux distro that came pre-bundled with KDE... I took the > time to remove all the fading, transparency, window animations, > bouncing cursors, etc. (actually, I just switched to XFCE instead). I > don't see the difference. If you want to get high and mighty with a > retort about rolling your own Linux distribution--well, you've just > sailed far beyond ANY pre-packaged OS (Mac, Windows, Linux, or > otherwise) and the point is moot. > > Find a new scapegoat to complain about, PLEASE. Bitch about WebKit's > lack of XMLDOM instantiation. Bitch about Google launching > pay-for-play high resolution satellite imagery. Bitch about the > Xandros EEE being squashed by Intel. Bitch about Facebook's API and > their draconic limitations on markup language and Javascript... but > this "Vista sucks and I won't comment as to why" broken record has run > its course. > > I could give you some of your arguments... but Microsoft is still a big chunk of crap to swallow due to their artificial attempts to force users to adopt Vista despite the fact the majority of their users want to continue using XP. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Fri, 2008-09-12 at 09:18 -0500, Boyd, Todd M. wrote: > > > Okay... here it goes. I'm sick and tired of people talking trash on > Windows Vista. It came pre-installed on my laptop (Home Premium... not > Business Pro, sadly) and I haven't had any issues with it whatsoever. > Some of my WinXP programs don't show up in the start menu when they're > installed... but it's not Microsoft's fault that software companies > haven't taken the initiative to adapt to the new Vista framework > (which, let's be honest, can't require all that much effort in most > cases where base-level operating system stuff isn't involved in the > actual program). > > Annoyed with the UAC that asks you to confirm every administrative > decision you make on your computer? Quit being a weenie and just > automate it with RegEdit (or, if you're using Business, t. I must have written literally a > million emails like this in the past week... :p > > Col > > -- > > Colin Guthrie > gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie > http://colin.guthr.ie/ > > Day Job: >Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] > Open Source: >Mandriva Linux Contributor [http://www.mandriva.com/] >PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] >Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/] > > Ooh, well played ;) Ash www.ashleysheridan.co.uk -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
> -Original Message- > From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colin Guthrie > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:44 AM > To: php-general@lists.php.net > Subject: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet > Explorer 8 beater 2 > > Boyd, Todd M. wrote: > > > > > > Okay... here it goes. I'm sick and tired of people talking trash on > Windows Vista. It came pre-installed on my laptop (Home Premium... not > Business Pro, sadly) and I haven't had any issues with it whatsoever. > Some of my WinXP programs don't show up in the start menu when they're > installed... but it's not Microsoft's fault that software companies > haven't taken the initiative to adapt to the new Vista framework > (which, let's be honest, can't require all that much effort in most > cases where base-level operating system stuff isn't involved in the > actual program). > > > > Annoyed with the UAC that asks you to confirm every administrative > decision you make on your computer? Quit being a weenie and just > automate it with RegEdit (or, if you're using Business, there is an > explicit option for it in the Control Panel). > > > > Annoyed with all the bells and whistles in the Aero theme that is > installed by default? Don't use it! I remember the first time I > installed a Linux distro that came pre-bundled with KDE... I took the > time to remove all the fading, transparency, window animations, > bouncing cursors, etc. (actually, I just switched to XFCE instead). I > don't see the difference. If you want to get high and mighty with a > retort about rolling your own Linux distribution--well, you've just > sailed far beyond ANY pre-packaged OS (Mac, Windows, Linux, or > otherwise) and the point is moot. > > > > Find a new scapegoat to complain about, PLEASE. Bitch about WebKit's > lack of XMLDOM instantiation. Bitch about Google launching pay-for-play > high resolution satellite imagery. Bitch about the Xandros EEE being > squashed by Intel. Bitch about Facebook's API and their draconic > limitations on markup language and Javascript... but this "Vista sucks > and I won't comment as to why" broken record has run its course. > > > > > > All well and good. Use what you like etc. etc., I'm all for freedom, > but > that still doesn't mean that we wont be "stuck" using the legacy Vista > IE8 in 10 years time because we don't want to upgrade to "Windows ZX > 48" > or whatever at the time. And IE8 doesn't even support CSS 5 or HTML > 7!!! > I mean it's just sooo last decade and I don't want to have to have > to spend extra time catering for people who still insist on using it. > > | s,IE8,IE/Firefox/Opera/Safari/etc, > > The fact it's MS to me doesn't matter here. The same logic applies to > all browsers. I still think that sunset dates for web browsers is a > good > idea. I agree wholeheartedly. Also, I despise Internet Explorer with the vehemence of a rabid dog. One of the sort-of-legacy web applications used where I work bombs out in IE every now and again due to the way IE handles cookies and sessions. It fails at random (seemingly), and I've tried every security and privacy setting imaginable to try to get it to work again. I had the EXTREME pleasure yesterday of telling one of the staff that I didn't care that she liked Internet Explorer--Firefox (or even Safari/Google/MOSAIC/WHATEVER) never had the same problem, and that she was required to install it in place of Internet Explorer in order for the app to function as intended. Booyah! Granted, that's not exactly the most professional solution. However, it works 100% of the time, and I don't have a month to dedicate to investigating every session/cookie flaw in Internet Explorer and patching either the person's installation or the back-end web application. Every now and again, the bureaucratic paranoia over spent man-hours works in my favor. Todd Boyd Web Programmer
[PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
Boyd, Todd M. wrote: Okay... here it goes. I'm sick and tired of people talking trash on Windows Vista. It came pre-installed on my laptop (Home Premium... not Business Pro, sadly) and I haven't had any issues with it whatsoever. Some of my WinXP programs don't show up in the start menu when they're installed... but it's not Microsoft's fault that software companies haven't taken the initiative to adapt to the new Vista framework (which, let's be honest, can't require all that much effort in most cases where base-level operating system stuff isn't involved in the actual program). Annoyed with the UAC that asks you to confirm every administrative decision you make on your computer? Quit being a weenie and just automate it with RegEdit (or, if you're using Business, there is an explicit option for it in the Control Panel). Annoyed with all the bells and whistles in the Aero theme that is installed by default? Don't use it! I remember the first time I installed a Linux distro that came pre-bundled with KDE... I took the time to remove all the fading, transparency, window animations, bouncing cursors, etc. (actually, I just switched to XFCE instead). I don't see the difference. If you want to get high and mighty with a retort about rolling your own Linux distribution--well, you've just sailed far beyond ANY pre-packaged OS (Mac, Windows, Linux, or otherwise) and the point is moot. Find a new scapegoat to complain about, PLEASE. Bitch about WebKit's lack of XMLDOM instantiation. Bitch about Google launching pay-for-play high resolution satellite imagery. Bitch about the Xandros EEE being squashed by Intel. Bitch about Facebook's API and their draconic limitations on markup language and Javascript... but this "Vista sucks and I won't comment as to why" broken record has run its course. All well and good. Use what you like etc. etc., I'm all for freedom, but that still doesn't mean that we wont be "stuck" using the legacy Vista IE8 in 10 years time because we don't want to upgrade to "Windows ZX 48" or whatever at the time. And IE8 doesn't even support CSS 5 or HTML 7!!! I mean it's just sooo last decade and I don't want to have to have to spend extra time catering for people who still insist on using it. | s,IE8,IE/Firefox/Opera/Safari/etc, The fact it's MS to me doesn't matter here. The same logic applies to all browsers. I still think that sunset dates for web browsers is a good idea. Col -- Colin Guthrie gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mandriva Linux Contributor [http://www.mandriva.com/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Sep 12, 2008, at 10:18 AM, Boyd, Todd M. wrote: -Original Message- From: Sancar Saran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:15 PM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2 Because, M$ earning money from Win GUI. No WinGUI no money. From the begining, M$ try to broke web compatibilty in every way... Sure M$ has bad records about software quality. But even ask yourself. WHY IE (especially 5 and 6) SO buggy even M$ standards. M$ isn't mr nice guy and they wont get a dime from web. They hate web and internet from begining. M$ is anti web IT company. They are too big they are to bold (or bald) to accept changing market and they got too much money on bank to do someting very very stupid. Like Windows VISTA. Don't expect anything good from M$... Okay... here it goes. I'm sick and tired of people talking trash on Windows Vista. It came pre-installed on my laptop (Home Premium... not Business Pro, sadly) and I haven't had any issues with it whatsoever. Some of my WinXP programs don't show up in the start menu when they're installed... but it's not Microsoft's fault that software companies haven't taken the initiative to adapt to the new Vista framework (which, let's be honest, can't require all that much effort in most cases where base-level operating system stuff isn't involved in the actual program). Annoyed with the UAC that asks you to confirm every administrative decision you make on your computer? Quit being a weenie and just automate it with RegEdit (or, if you're using Business, there is an explicit option for it in the Control Panel). Annoyed with all the bells and whistles in the Aero theme that is installed by default? Don't use it! I remember the first time I installed a Linux distro that came pre-bundled with KDE... I took the time to remove all the fading, transparency, window animations, bouncing cursors, etc. (actually, I just switched to XFCE instead). I don't see the difference. If you want to get high and mighty with a retort about rolling your own Linux distribution--well, you've just sailed far beyond ANY pre-packaged OS (Mac, Windows, Linux, or otherwise) and the point is moot. Find a new scapegoat to complain about, PLEASE. Bitch about WebKit's lack of XMLDOM instantiation. Bitch about Google launching pay-for- play high resolution satellite imagery. Bitch about the Xandros EEE being squashed by Intel. Bitch about Facebook's API and their draconic limitations on markup language and Javascript... but this "Vista sucks and I won't comment as to why" broken record has run its course. Have a lovely day! Todd Boyd Web Programmer Three Votes Todd!! In total agreement. I've been meaning to make a similar post & statement not just here (in PHP mailing list), but in an abundant number of places all across the Internet horizon. And My PC didn't come bundled with Vista, in fact, I actually Upgraded from XP personally & manually. I have no stock options in Microsoft, and I have nothing personal with them - Just another commodity user/customer. And I couldn't have said it any better. Cheers! --- Rahul Sitaram Johari Founder, Internet Architects Group, Inc. [Email] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Web] http://www.rahulsjohari.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
> -Original Message- > From: Sancar Saran [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 6:15 PM > To: php-general@lists.php.net > Subject: Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet > Explorer 8 beater 2 > > Because, > > M$ earning money from Win GUI. No WinGUI no money. > > From the begining, M$ try to broke web compatibilty in every way... > > Sure M$ has bad records about software quality. But even ask yourself. > WHY IE > (especially 5 and 6) SO buggy even M$ standards. > > M$ isn't mr nice guy and they wont get a dime from web. > > They hate web and internet from begining. > > M$ is anti web IT company. They are too big they are to bold (or bald) > to > accept changing market and they got too much money on > bank to do someting very very stupid. > > Like Windows VISTA. > > Don't expect anything good from M$... Okay... here it goes. I'm sick and tired of people talking trash on Windows Vista. It came pre-installed on my laptop (Home Premium... not Business Pro, sadly) and I haven't had any issues with it whatsoever. Some of my WinXP programs don't show up in the start menu when they're installed... but it's not Microsoft's fault that software companies haven't taken the initiative to adapt to the new Vista framework (which, let's be honest, can't require all that much effort in most cases where base-level operating system stuff isn't involved in the actual program). Annoyed with the UAC that asks you to confirm every administrative decision you make on your computer? Quit being a weenie and just automate it with RegEdit (or, if you're using Business, there is an explicit option for it in the Control Panel). Annoyed with all the bells and whistles in the Aero theme that is installed by default? Don't use it! I remember the first time I installed a Linux distro that came pre-bundled with KDE... I took the time to remove all the fading, transparency, window animations, bouncing cursors, etc. (actually, I just switched to XFCE instead). I don't see the difference. If you want to get high and mighty with a retort about rolling your own Linux distribution--well, you've just sailed far beyond ANY pre-packaged OS (Mac, Windows, Linux, or otherwise) and the point is moot. Find a new scapegoat to complain about, PLEASE. Bitch about WebKit's lack of XMLDOM instantiation. Bitch about Google launching pay-for-play high resolution satellite imagery. Bitch about the Xandros EEE being squashed by Intel. Bitch about Facebook's API and their draconic limitations on markup language and Javascript... but this "Vista sucks and I won't comment as to why" broken record has run its course. Have a lovely day! Todd Boyd Web Programmer
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
On Sep 12, 2008, at 3:13 AM, Colin Guthrie wrote: Sancar Saran wrote: Don't expect anything good from M$... Oh I don't expect anything good from them, never have, never will, [snip!] Ok, let's not forget about the Xbox! ;) ~Philip -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
Lester Caine wrote: Colin Guthrie wrote: Sancar Saran wrote: Don't expect anything good from M$... Oh I don't expect anything good from them, never have, never will, but that still doesn't change my point that sunset dates would probably be better for them in the long run... looking for a reason up upgrade a subborn user who wont drink the vista kool aid? Stop them surfing and get them to upgrade! Except that this is the same argument that has been applied to PHP4. There is nothing stopping people continuing to use PHP4 if they want to. Finally it is just not being supported. That's different tho'. Being limited to PHP 4 is the choice of the people who deploy the application. Those same people cannot choose how said application is *consumed*, which then limits what techniques they can use with confidence etc. So this argument doesn't really apply here. M$ want to end of life XP, but ITX and similar small profile systems simply can't even load Vista so what do we use then? These boxes are happier running W2k! Which goes back to my previous point whereby if MS do not support their IE in older distros... sorry OSes, and people do not want to upgrade, then other browsers should fill that void. It's a MS choice pure and simple as to whether they support their own older products. M$ may want to kill off older versions of windows, but they are also killing off whole swaths of customers in the process? Well they either create a browser that continues to work for their older OS's or let someone else do it. If there is a need then someone will fill it, that's the point. A sunset date for old browsers would take any assessment out of the equation. Most devs stop supporting older browsers at some point, but the trick is knowing exactly when to do it, and doing so in a way that still allows commercial web developers to cater for their target audience. Many people running older, outdated browsers simply don't know they are out of date, but if this information is much closer to the surface (e.g. every time they start their browser and consistent and persistent nagging), then they would know about it and perhaps look at rectifying the situation so that they can have a better web experience and developers can focus on the important aspects of their projects rather than spending countless hours catering for obsoleted but still used products. Col -- Colin Guthrie gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mandriva Linux Contributor [http://www.mandriva.com/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
Colin Guthrie wrote: Sancar Saran wrote: Don't expect anything good from M$... Oh I don't expect anything good from them, never have, never will, but that still doesn't change my point that sunset dates would probably be better for them in the long run... looking for a reason up upgrade a subborn user who wont drink the vista kool aid? Stop them surfing and get them to upgrade! Except that this is the same argument that has been applied to PHP4. There is nothing stopping people continuing to use PHP4 if they want to. Finally it is just not being supported. M$ want to end of life XP, but ITX and similar small profile systems simply can't even load Vista so what do we use then? These boxes are happier running W2k! Linux goes on fine, and in many cases all you need is a browser running accessing pages on the PHP server. But when a customer says NO to Linux where can one go? At least my sites are now happier to accept Linux simply because many have not STARTED moving to XP and already they have assessed that they can't afford the hardware upgrade for Vista! M$ may want to kill off older versions of windows, but they are also killing off whole swaths of customers in the process? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
I wouldn't say Microsoft are strictly anti-web, anymore. They appear to be changing the model of their next operating system to cater for 'the cloud.' I think they finally see that they missed the Internet, and they need it? 2008/9/12 Colin Guthrie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sancar Saran wrote: > >> Don't expect anything good from M$... >> > > Oh I don't expect anything good from them, never have, never will, but that > still doesn't change my point that sunset dates would probably be better for > them in the long run... looking for a reason up upgrade a subborn user who > wont drink the vista kool aid? Stop them surfing and get them to upgrade! > > Other browsers muscling in? just make IE not suck and deploy it on older > OSes.. It's not really that hard to do (or wouldn't have been if IE wasn't a > critial part of the OS!). > > Still not holding out much hope and there is not much point in musing over > "what could have"'s, but I really do hope that future browsers have this > built in (again not much hope!) > > Col > > -- > > Colin Guthrie > gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie > http://colin.guthr.ie/ > > Day Job: > Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] > Open Source: > Mandriva Linux Contributor [http://www.mandriva.com/] > PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] > Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/] > > > -- > PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) > To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php > > -- Luke Slater
[PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
Sancar Saran wrote: Don't expect anything good from M$... Oh I don't expect anything good from them, never have, never will, but that still doesn't change my point that sunset dates would probably be better for them in the long run... looking for a reason up upgrade a subborn user who wont drink the vista kool aid? Stop them surfing and get them to upgrade! Other browsers muscling in? just make IE not suck and deploy it on older OSes.. It's not really that hard to do (or wouldn't have been if IE wasn't a critial part of the OS!). Still not holding out much hope and there is not much point in musing over "what could have"'s, but I really do hope that future browsers have this built in (again not much hope!) Col -- Colin Guthrie gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mandriva Linux Contributor [http://www.mandriva.com/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
Because, M$ earning money from Win GUI. No WinGUI no money. From the begining, M$ try to broke web compatibilty in every way... Sure M$ has bad records about software quality. But even ask yourself. WHY IE (especially 5 and 6) SO buggy even M$ standards. M$ isn't mr nice guy and they wont get a dime from web. They hate web and internet from begining. M$ is anti web IT company. They are too big they are to bold (or bald) to accept changing market and they got too much money on bank to do someting very very stupid. Like Windows VISTA. Don't expect anything good from M$... Regards Sancar -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: Why MS Won't Retire Browsers -- was: Interntet Explorer 8 beater 2
Micah Gersten wrote: The problem is that if you're running on older hardware, IE7 might be too CPU intensive to run correctly. That's why MS won't set Sunset Dates for an old browser. They instead set the Sunset Dates for the OS and that's how they make things out of date. They say upgrade the OS. Matter of philosophy. The problem is that the new OS won't run on the old hardware and costs lots of money so people don't upgrade. Remember, MS is for profit. If you can just upgrade your browser, they don't make any money. If you upgrade your OS, they do. Fair point but if people are using old OSes and MS want them to upgrade to a newer versin, breaking their ability to surf the web isn't a carrot, but it makes a pretty good stick. Col -- Colin Guthrie gmane(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mandriva Linux Contributor [http://www.mandriva.com/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
