Re: window management ideas
On Wednesday 15 July 2009 07:41:32 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: On Friday 10 July 2009, Chani wrote: what I wanted is window tagging. do windows live long enough for tagging to work? would there be an always there tag? how easy is it to tag a window? (this is an interaction design concept) how does tagging interact with activities? (i suppose that's answered in the windowgroups / pager / ZUI thread?) what's the average user advantage in this? how much work is saved or how much efficiency gained versus how much time spent messing around with tagging? this feels like a very geek feature that i can't see many people using. i could be wrong but tagging really tends to work when: * the data set is large * the data set is long lived (so value accrues over time) * the data set is shared by many people (so there's value reaped from other's work or by being able to tie several people's work together in unique ways) because of that, tagging works _fabulously_ for things like photo sharing websites and online news aggregation. how well does it work for a small, often/usually temporary, non-shared data set? I see tagging also as a way to specify the virtual desktop / window group an application window is in. Moving a window to some virtual desktop called Work would tag the window with it. Based on those tags, we can open stuff by project / activity. So you open all windows tagged foobar to open the foobar project. Saving goes similarly. The thing is that we need to differentiate between unique applications (think of your email client) and document windows (think of a kwrite window with an open text file). unique applications would have persistant tags attached to the application, document windows would have those tags set on the file they're displaying. -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
On July 14, 2009 22:41:32 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: On Friday 10 July 2009, Chani wrote: what I wanted is window tagging. do windows live long enough for tagging to work? mine live for weeks. they'd live for months if I wasn't recompiling kde all the time. is this not common? also, I'd like it if tagging was more automatic at some point. would there be an always there tag? yeah how easy is it to tag a window? (this is an interaction design concept) I'd hope it'd be as easy as it is to move a window to another desktop right now. how does tagging interact with activities? (i suppose that's answered in the windowgroups / pager / ZUI thread?) we could have an activity associated with a tag, or maybe we could keep them independent... what's the average user advantage in this? hrm. perhaps not much, given that the average user doesn't even use virtual desktops. how much work is saved or how much efficiency gained versus how much time spent messing around with tagging? good question. I'd certainly want to keep hte messing-around time to a minimum. this feels like a very geek feature that i can't see many people using. i could be wrong but tagging really tends to work when: * the data set is large how large? I have a couple of dozen konq tabs that I think I could manage more easily with tagging. * the data set is long lived (so value accrues over time) I want to eventually have these tags be persistent - tagging of applications, documents etc. * the data set is shared by many people (so there's value reaped from other's work or by being able to tie several people's work together in unique ways) yeah, we don't have this at all until we bring in document tags. because of that, tagging works _fabulously_ for things like photo sharing websites and online news aggregation. how well does it work for a small, often/usually temporary, non-shared data set? -- This message brought to you by eevil bananas and the number 3. www.chani3.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
I think tagging has a very good advantage to average users. Applications could be tagged so their windows show up in the same tag group each time they are launched. Also, you could have default tags either set by developers, or set using the program groups from the Kickoff menu. This way the time messing around with tags would be reduced. I think that tagging would help b/c it would help sort information. Even with virtual desktops, my windows are very cluttered. An alternative would be to tie application windows to a certain virtual desktop. Although this doesn't solve the I want konsole on my Programming and Virtualization Desktops problem, it will help with window management b/c the user doesnt have to switch desktops before launching the application to ensure the application lives on the right virtual desktop. - Alexander Shenoy Student University of Pittsburgh four.sentenc.es On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Chani chan...@gmail.com wrote: On July 14, 2009 22:41:32 Aaron J. Seigo wrote: On Friday 10 July 2009, Chani wrote: what I wanted is window tagging. do windows live long enough for tagging to work? mine live for weeks. they'd live for months if I wasn't recompiling kde all the time. is this not common? also, I'd like it if tagging was more automatic at some point. would there be an always there tag? yeah how easy is it to tag a window? (this is an interaction design concept) I'd hope it'd be as easy as it is to move a window to another desktop right now. how does tagging interact with activities? (i suppose that's answered in the windowgroups / pager / ZUI thread?) we could have an activity associated with a tag, or maybe we could keep them independent... what's the average user advantage in this? hrm. perhaps not much, given that the average user doesn't even use virtual desktops. how much work is saved or how much efficiency gained versus how much time spent messing around with tagging? good question. I'd certainly want to keep hte messing-around time to a minimum. this feels like a very geek feature that i can't see many people using. i could be wrong but tagging really tends to work when: * the data set is large how large? I have a couple of dozen konq tabs that I think I could manage more easily with tagging. * the data set is long lived (so value accrues over time) I want to eventually have these tags be persistent - tagging of applications, documents etc. * the data set is shared by many people (so there's value reaped from other's work or by being able to tie several people's work together in unique ways) yeah, we don't have this at all until we bring in document tags. because of that, tagging works _fabulously_ for things like photo sharing websites and online news aggregation. how well does it work for a small, often/usually temporary, non-shared data set? -- This message brought to you by eevil bananas and the number 3. www.chani3.com ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
On Friday 10 July 2009, Chani wrote: what I wanted is window tagging. do windows live long enough for tagging to work? would there be an always there tag? how easy is it to tag a window? (this is an interaction design concept) how does tagging interact with activities? (i suppose that's answered in the windowgroups / pager / ZUI thread?) what's the average user advantage in this? how much work is saved or how much efficiency gained versus how much time spent messing around with tagging? this feels like a very geek feature that i can't see many people using. i could be wrong but tagging really tends to work when: * the data set is large * the data set is long lived (so value accrues over time) * the data set is shared by many people (so there's value reaped from other's work or by being able to tie several people's work together in unique ways) because of that, tagging works _fabulously_ for things like photo sharing websites and online news aggregation. how well does it work for a small, often/usually temporary, non-shared data set? -- Aaron J. Seigo humru othro a kohnu se GPG Fingerprint: 8B8B 2209 0C6F 7C47 B1EA EE75 D6B7 2EB1 A7F1 DB43 KDE core developer sponsored by Qt Software signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
Chani wrote: so I had a crazy idea, and discussed it with lubos and notmart, and completely forgot to mention it at the bof. I brought it up again today and we ended up with some other ideas too. what I wanted is window tagging. instead of virtual desktops and tabs (tabs seems to be a workaround for window management not being good enough anyways) I could just have tags on windows, and have a taskbar that groups by tag, or have one virtual desktop per tag. perhaps some smart omission of superfluous tags. Okay... time to point people at http://techbase.kde.org/Projects/Usability/NWI again... Not exactly the same thing, but... What I'd like to know is if/how tags would fit into NWI; I can see that they might make the panel really confusing if you have nested containers /and/ tags. (And no, I don't think tagging can replace tabs. It's not unusual for me to have dozens or more tabs open (not necessarily in one window, or even one application). I do not under *any* circumstances want that many top-level windows. I've been there, and it sucks ;-).) we also daydreamed about how nice it would be if you could save and load partial-sessions consisting of a group of windows and an activity. Yes, that would be nice. Session Management is still somewhat in the stone ages. (Kate and Firefox have the best session management; the desktop as a whole isn't even close to that level.) (Please note that SM != NWI.) -- Matthew Please do not quote my e-mail address unobfuscated in message bodies. -- ,= ,-_-. =.Freedom to Use ((_/)o o(\_)) Freedom to Examine `-'(. .)`-' Freedom to Share \_/ Freedom to Improve ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
What about a stack of desktop icons (texted More desktops?) in the upper right corner where you can _drag_ one from _and_ _drop_ it to a position in the grid (similar to widget adding in qt designer)? Thomas Am Friday 10 July 2009 schrieb Martin Gräßlin: have the work is already done. I've already started to work on it some time ago and have a well defined area on the screen which adds a desktop when I click it. But it needs some more polishing as it realy shows that desktop grid wasn't thought as a way to add/remove desktops. And I have to think of a way how to make the plus widget feal like a real widget. I don't want to just paint an icon like in gnome shell. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
a) do you seriously suggest to add a permanent widget on your desktop that can configure the desktop grid?? (i.e. how regularly do you do that?) b) while using the grid, the desktops are scaled down... (e.g. try this with 9 desktops...) c) i was talking talking about painting an ICON (maby 3 times to make a stack..) - not a set of widgets... (not to speak of svg, script support, d) what if someone uses plasma + compiz and start's to wonder why this doesn't work... e) no one yet agreed to do it this way at all ;-P ... ok - /just/ read your forgotten crosspost ;-P when we want to push VDs to a rather win grouping metaphor (...of course we all silently know that this is because the plasma team has so far failed to support multiple wallpapers per VD... yes: we know!... =P ) one should drop this approach entirely (as there would not be real desktops - you know: with individual wallpapers etc...) and rather allow dragging windows around and create new desktop groups by dragging windows to an area that exceeds any other groups margin. (that's far more intuitive then pressing some widget - while a) still holds - to create a new (empty...) group stupid question/note regarding this: we need to drop the (prominent, could keep it for inter-user session changes) cube etc. then, right? (the only working transition we afaics have so far for switching former VDs and then WGs would be crossfading) Thomas ps: columns? i'd rather suggest heaps, make sure all wins are scaled to similar dimensions and (partially) visible when entering the view and bring the hovered ones to front... columns... pfff ;-P Am Saturday 11 July 2009 schrieb Sebastian Kügler: Maybe using Plasma widgets that can receive input and that send D-Bus calls, and kwin reacting to it with animations accordingly? The Plasma widgetry would be behind or around the animation in Kwin, so you basically add controls around kwin animated window arrangements. We certainly don't want another set of widgets in KWin, even if it's just simple ones. Plasma has all we need already, and it should integrate nicely this way as well. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 9:28 PM, Chanichan...@gmail.com wrote: today I was told that wmii is a window manager that uses tags, so I need to go look into that. http://dwm.suckless.org/ Also worth a look. Rich. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
On 10-07-2009 at 22:28:10 Chani chan...@gmail.com wrote: so I had a crazy idea, and discussed it with lubos and notmart, and completely forgot to mention it at the bof. I brought it up again today and we ended up with some other ideas too. what I wanted is window tagging. instead of virtual desktops and tabs Maybe this could be connected with manual grouping in task managers? ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
I like this idea. It actually solves a problem that I have been having forever. Opening a window on the wrong desktop and then having to move it to another desktop. Or wishing I could have a window open only on two desktops, but not the other two. (i.e. Konsole open on Programming and Virtualization, but not Multimedia and General) Tags would make things simple for the Window Management. The algorithm would have to be really good at weeding out superfluous tags, however. I could easily see adding a tag and having only one window open within it. Maybe have a Universal tag that displays windows within all Tags? It would just need to be designed in such a way that it doesn't turn into a kludge. I also like the idea of the desktop effect grouping the applications. I have this animation that I'm seeing through my minds eye and its really stellar. - Alexander Shenoy Student University of Pittsburgh four.sentenc.es On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Chani chan...@gmail.com wrote: so I had a crazy idea, and discussed it with lubos and notmart, and completely forgot to mention it at the bof. I brought it up again today and we ended up with some other ideas too. what I wanted is window tagging. instead of virtual desktops and tabs (tabs seems to be a workaround for window management not being good enough anyways) I could just have tags on windows, and have a taskbar that groups by tag, or have one virtual desktop per tag. perhaps some smart omission of superfluous tags. this could be done in stages: first the ability to manually tag, then session restore including tags, then virtual desktops automatically following tags (automatic creation and deletion of desktops would be nice, if done right), then magical automatic tagging from nepomuk (open a document, hte window gets the document's tags), perhaps other automatic tagging... today I was told that wmii is a window manager that uses tags, so I need to go look into that. we also daydreamed about how nice it would be if you could save and load partial-sessions consisting of a group of windows and an activity. sebas had an idea for a new kwin effect to show all virtual desktops: instead of showing them as desktops, show them as groups of windows. as a side-effect this also avoids the issue of the taskbar showing the wrong stuff because the taskbar wouldn't be visible ;) he also wanted the ability to dragdrop windows between desktops from such effects. in hte short term, I think we should add some simple features to make the current virtual-desktop management more convenient: -an add virtual desktop action in the pager contextmenu -maybe a way to add/remove them from the desktop grid effect? (yes, I'm thinking about gnome here) -errr... I really should've written notes, because i forgot the rest. :) comments? -- This message brought to you by eevil bananas and the number 3. www.chani3.com ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
Am Freitag 10 Juli 2009 22:28:10 schrieb Chani: -maybe a way to add/remove them from the desktop grid effect? (yes, I'm thinking about gnome here) have the work is already done. I've already started to work on it some time ago and have a well defined area on the screen which adds a desktop when I click it. But it needs some more polishing as it realy shows that desktop grid wasn't thought as a way to add/remove desktops. And I have to think of a way how to make the plus widget feal like a real widget. I don't want to just paint an icon like in gnome shell. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
On July 10, 2009 13:33:44 Emdek wrote: On 10-07-2009 at 22:28:10 Chani chan...@gmail.com wrote: so I had a crazy idea, and discussed it with lubos and notmart, and completely forgot to mention it at the bof. I brought it up again today and we ended up with some other ideas too. what I wanted is window tagging. instead of virtual desktops and tabs Maybe this could be connected with manual grouping in task managers? yep. or replace it? *shrug* -- This message brought to you by eevil bananas and the number 3. www.chani3.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
On 10-07-2009 at 23:14:39 Chani chan...@gmail.com wrote: On July 10, 2009 13:33:44 Emdek wrote: On 10-07-2009 at 22:28:10 Chani chan...@gmail.com wrote: so I had a crazy idea, and discussed it with lubos and notmart, and completely forgot to mention it at the bof. I brought it up again today and we ended up with some other ideas too. what I wanted is window tagging. instead of virtual desktops and tabs Maybe this could be connected with manual grouping in task managers? yep. or replace it? *shrug* Maybe creating group should create new tag (maybe optional?) and tagged window should be represented by group. Changes in group (adding and removing windows) would be reflected in tag. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
please remember to reply to *both* lists. :) On July 10, 2009 13:39:24 Alexander Shenoy wrote: I like this idea. It actually solves a problem that I have been having forever. Opening a window on the wrong desktop and then having to move it to another desktop. Or wishing I could have a window open only on two desktops, but not the other two. (i.e. Konsole open on Programming and Virtualization, but not Multimedia and General) Tags would make things simple for the Window Management. The algorithm would have to be really good at weeding out superfluous tags, however. I could easily see adding a tag and having only one window open within it. Maybe have a Universal tag that displays windows within all Tags? It would just need to be designed in such a way that it doesn't turn into a kludge. yeah :) I had some ideas, like ignoring tags that only apply to one window, but they're more in the context of the taskbar than vdesktops I also like the idea of the desktop effect grouping the applications. I have this animation that I'm seeing through my minds eye and its really stellar. :) bug sebas to implement it then ;) and make a mockup of this animation. -- This message brought to you by eevil bananas and the number 3. www.chani3.com signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
Re: window management ideas
On Friday 10 July 2009 22:57:40 Martin Gräßlin wrote: Am Freitag 10 Juli 2009 22:28:10 schrieb Chani: -maybe a way to add/remove them from the desktop grid effect? (yes, I'm thinking about gnome here) have the work is already done. I've already started to work on it some time ago and have a well defined area on the screen which adds a desktop when I click it. But it needs some more polishing as it realy shows that desktop grid wasn't thought as a way to add/remove desktops. And I have to think of a way how to make the plus widget feal like a real widget. I don't want to just paint an icon like in gnome shell. Maybe using Plasma widgets that can receive input and that send D-Bus calls, and kwin reacting to it with animations accordingly? The Plasma widgetry would be behind or around the animation in Kwin, so you basically add controls around kwin animated window arrangements. We certainly don't want another set of widgets in KWin, even if it's just simple ones. Plasma has all we need already, and it should integrate nicely this way as well. -- sebas http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org | GPG Key ID: 9119 0EF9 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ Plasma-devel mailing list Plasma-devel@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/plasma-devel
