RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
= = And 95% of all statistical claims are made up on the fly. = = Gil = = Actually, I think the number is closer to 95.382%, Gil. s B+ HALinNY ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Hal Kaplan wrote: = = And 95% of all statistical claims are made up on the fly. = = Gil = = Actually, I think the number is closer to 95.382%, Gil. s Hmmm. You just made that up, didn't you? ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
= [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Vince Teachout = = Hal Kaplan wrote: = = = = And 95% of all statistical claims are made up on the fly. = = = = Gil = = = = = = Actually, I think the number is closer to 95.382%, Gil. s = Hmmm. You just made that up, didn't you? = No, Vince. I did not just make that up. I do not play with my fly. All of my statistics are hand-carved by old-world artisans; Euclidians; Newtonians. Every facet is carefully inspected and its validity authenticated by reference to the texts of Nostradamus. If Galileo had used my methods of assurance he never would have been cited as a heretic. There is no excuse for sloppiness in my production facilities. B+ HALinNY ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Actually, I think the number is closer to 95.382%, Gil. s Hmmm. You just made that up, didn't you? Probably made it up on his, er I mean, the fly. Gil -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Vince Teachout Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:46 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty! Hal Kaplan wrote: = = And 95% of all statistical claims are made up on the fly. = = Gil = = Actually, I think the number is closer to 95.382%, Gil. s Hmmm. You just made that up, didn't you? [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
The real reason is that programming is an art, not a science... Can't certify art... Dave Crozier wrote: Hal wrote: ...A thorough understanding of algorithmic principles, database, some math, regression, ETHICS, etc. is what should qualify someone to be a computer professional TOTALLY WRONG Hal I'm afraid. The thing that qualifies someone to be a computer professional in its true sense (where software is concerned anyhow) is the ability to write GOOD software, and the definition of good will change depending upon the environment you are working in. Good in an emergency situation is a fix that works and gets the system live again however it is done. Good in a production environment means reliable and stable. Good in a performance dictated situation means fast and reliable. It's just like driving. All drivers make mistakes, the difference between a good driver and a bad driver is that the good driver will always know whenever he/she has made a mistake and the majority of outsiders/onlookers will never ever notice the mistake. The bad driver is just a danger to others because he doesn't understand the ramification(s) of making a mistake - or even worse, what a mistake constitutes. Remember you don’t have to be able to read music to be a great musician. I'll take natural talent as opposed to paper qualifications any day of the week. Try and teach dancing to someone who has no sense of rhythm and you'll see exactly what I mean. Having all the paper qualifications only gives you a head start in the ability to understand basic methodology but there is absolutely NO substitute for experience and natural ability in this business. Dave Crozier -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hal Kaplan Sent: 17 January 2007 20:55 To: ProFox Email List Subject: RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty! = And the second problem is that all of the folks in the biz = would want to be grandfathered in. Who in their right mind = would submit to having to gain credentials (that they may or = may not be qualified to earn) to do what they've been doing = for the last 10 or 20 years? = = So, just like the answer about how God created the world in = 6 days = He didn't have to worry about the installed base. = = Whil = During those 6 days, G-d did not create the AMA, ABA, AIA, AICPA, or any other professional group except perhaps for clergy. The installed base existed for all of these professions and it is now all a matter of history. Some practioners fared better than others but on the whole society gained. BTW, you do not need a degree in architecture to be an architect, or a law degree to be an attorney (I am not sure about medicine and accounting). You can become a licensed professional through well-documented experience. Of course you still need to take and pass the state licensing exam. And I dare say that if a similarly-structured arrangement existed for people like us, a good number would pass the exam and gain grandfather status, others would fail, and still others would walk away or do nothing because the effective date for all of the lead-ins to congeal would probably be 6 to 10 years off. What is needed to achieve widespread licensing is a catalyst such as a massive lapse of public safety or security that could be laid at the feet of the profession as it exists today. There are no questions of impartiality or any nonsense like that. Those arguments are specious. All professions have competing suppliers who will do almost anything to get and keep business ... ruthlessly and illegally too! But the basics of these professions: the chemistry of life, anatomy, legal precedent, torts, etc. are independent of commercialism. Intel and AMD may be making a lot of bits, but they did not invent them. A thorough understanding of algorithmic principles, database, some math, regression, ETHICS, etc. is what should qualify someone to be a computer professional. B+ HALinNY [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
computer professionals. Or imagine the converse: that doctors made their recommendations not on the best interests of the patient, but on what would generate the most revenue for the doctor himself ?? You don't think this is happening already? Mark Stanton One small step for mankind... ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
On 1/18/07, Dave Crozier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: TOTALLY WRONG Hal I'm afraid. The thing that qualifies someone to be a computer professional in its true sense (where software is concerned anyhow) is the ability to write GOOD software, That's certainly one opinion. I think there are likely many different definitions, and that is one of the struggles groups like ACM have had in determining what they should be certifying. Some favor system software and admin, other computer science concepts like compiler design, still others more production-oriented issues faced by computer information systems professionals. I've tried to avoid generic certifications that want me to prove proficiency in Pascal, for example. Similarly, an A+ certification expects me to know the IRQ of COM1. My Mac, Amiga, SUN workstation and laptop don't have a COM1... -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
On 1/18/07, Chet Gardiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The real reason is that programming is an art, not a science... Can't certify art... Practitioners might argue that good practice of many professions qualify as art: medicine, law, plumbing, carpentry... basic proficiency and perhaps basic business skills and ethics ought to be testable, shouldn't they? -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
No its not.. Menu's are akin to doors Reports are akin to windows.. There isn't one thing in the programming world that couldn't benefit from fixed objects, and by that I mean you pass a text string to a box with the coordinates and it displays the message with the appropriate buttons.. If we'd spend less time reinventing the wheel and more time benefiting from the combined experience of all our minds, we would be 100 times better off then we are now. Virgil Bierschwale http://www.virgilslist.com http://www.tccutlery.com http://www.bierschwale.com http://www.bierschwalesolutions.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chet Gardiner Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 2:26 AM To: profox@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty! The real reason is that programming is an art, not a science... Can't certify art... Dave Crozier wrote: Hal wrote: ...A thorough understanding of algorithmic principles, database, some math, regression, ETHICS, etc. is what should qualify someone to be a computer professional TOTALLY WRONG Hal I'm afraid. The thing that qualifies someone to be a computer professional in its true sense (where software is concerned anyhow) is the ability to write GOOD software, and the definition of good will change depending upon the environment you are working in. Good in an emergency situation is a fix that works and gets the system live again however it is done. Good in a production environment means reliable and stable. Good in a performance dictated situation means fast and reliable. It's just like driving. All drivers make mistakes, the difference between a good driver and a bad driver is that the good driver will always know whenever he/she has made a mistake and the majority of outsiders/onlookers will never ever notice the mistake. The bad driver is just a danger to others because he doesn't understand the ramification(s) of making a mistake - or even worse, what a mistake constitutes. Remember you don’t have to be able to read music to be a great musician. I'll take natural talent as opposed to paper qualifications any day of the week. Try and teach dancing to someone who has no sense of rhythm and you'll see exactly what I mean. Having all the paper qualifications only gives you a head start in the ability to understand basic methodology but there is absolutely NO substitute for experience and natural ability in this business. Dave Crozier -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hal Kaplan Sent: 17 January 2007 20:55 To: ProFox Email List Subject: RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty! = And the second problem is that all of the folks in the biz = would want to be grandfathered in. Who in their right mind = would submit to having to gain credentials (that they may or = may not be qualified to earn) to do what they've been doing = for the last 10 or 20 years? = = So, just like the answer about how God created the world in = 6 days = He didn't have to worry about the installed base. = = Whil = During those 6 days, G-d did not create the AMA, ABA, AIA, AICPA, or any other professional group except perhaps for clergy. The installed base existed for all of these professions and it is now all a matter of history. Some practioners fared better than others but on the whole society gained. BTW, you do not need a degree in architecture to be an architect, or a law degree to be an attorney (I am not sure about medicine and accounting). You can become a licensed professional through well-documented experience. Of course you still need to take and pass the state licensing exam. And I dare say that if a similarly-structured arrangement existed for people like us, a good number would pass the exam and gain grandfather status, others would fail, and still others would walk away or do nothing because the effective date for all of the lead-ins to congeal would probably be 6 to 10 years off. What is needed to achieve widespread licensing is a catalyst such as a massive lapse of public safety or security that could be laid at the feet of the profession as it exists today. There are no questions of impartiality or any nonsense like that. Those arguments are specious. All professions have competing suppliers who will do almost anything to get and keep business ... ruthlessly and illegally too! But the basics of these professions: the chemistry of life, anatomy, legal precedent, torts, etc. are independent of commercialism. Intel and AMD may be making a lot of bits, but they did not invent them. A thorough understanding of algorithmic principles, database, some math, regression, ETHICS, etc. is what should qualify someone to be a computer professional. B+ HALinNY [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
And yet, still, 90% of lawyers and doctors are only maginally competent at best... As for plumbers and carpenters -- certification is not designed to weed out the incompetent but rather to raise the bar for entry into lucrative professions to the favored few. In many cases, originally, it was to keep out the Blacks and the Irish. s Basic business skills are irrelevant to a good computer program and, if you believe the many pro-m$ types, so are ethics... Ted Roche wrote: On 1/18/07, Chet Gardiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The real reason is that programming is an art, not a science... Can't certify art... Practitioners might argue that good practice of many professions qualify as art: medicine, law, plumbing, carpentry... basic proficiency and perhaps basic business skills and ethics ought to be testable, shouldn't they? ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
= [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chet Gardiner = Subject: Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty! = = The real reason is that programming is an art, not a science... = = Can't certify art... = Chet, you are absolutely right that programming is an art. So is ... An architect designing a building. A plumber wiping a sweat joint just right to make it look good. A dentist matching the color of a replacement tooth to the rest of the mouth. An attorney doing a benefit performance in front of a jury. A surgeon making just the right incision to get the job done ... no more, no less. And the list goes on. No, you cannot certify art (let alone define it) but every artist has an understanding of his media and his methods and the ramifications of his actions. And that understanding can be quantified and certified and should be. B+ HALinNY ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
= [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chet Gardiner = = And yet, still, 90% of lawyers and doctors are only = maginally competent at best... = = As for plumbers and carpenters -- certification is not = designed to weed out the incompetent but rather to raise the = bar for entry into lucrative professions to the favored few. = In many cases, originally, it was to keep out the Blacks = and the Irish. s = = Basic business skills are irrelevant to a good computer = program and, if you believe the many pro-m$ types, so are ethics... = Chet, you are kidding, right? Plumbers are certified because the lives of people are at risk from bad plumbing practices. Remember that in most jurisdictions, plumbers also handle natural gas installations too. Carpentry certification is also based on public safety. The line about keeping out minorities is certainly true but the trade unions are primarily responsible for that. B+ HALinNY ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
As a young kid, I worked as an electricians helper and carpenters helper. I have also worked as a marine electrician at bath iron works on naval frigates. When everything went to hell on me, I thought about opening a business as an electrician, but I found out that the entry bar is very high as you have to serve as an apprentice, etc, for a very long time. So in a nutshell, I too sometimes think that licenses are sometimes utilized to keep people out of the business, even if the license may have originally been planned with the best of intentions. Virgil Bierschwale http://www.virgilslist.com http://www.tccutlery.com http://www.bierschwale.com http://www.bierschwalesolutions.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hal Kaplan Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 2:52 PM To: ProFox Email List Subject: RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty! = [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chet Gardiner = = And yet, still, 90% of lawyers and doctors are only = maginally competent at best... = = As for plumbers and carpenters -- certification is not = designed to weed out the incompetent but rather to raise the = bar for entry into lucrative professions to the favored few. = In many cases, originally, it was to keep out the Blacks = and the Irish. s = = Basic business skills are irrelevant to a good computer = program and, if you believe the many pro-m$ types, so are ethics... = Chet, you are kidding, right? Plumbers are certified because the lives of people are at risk from bad plumbing practices. Remember that in most jurisdictions, plumbers also handle natural gas installations too. Carpentry certification is also based on public safety. The line about keeping out minorities is certainly true but the trade unions are primarily responsible for that. B+ HALinNY [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
I don't agree -- we can agree to disagree that that understanding can be quantified and certified and should be. You CAN'T QUANTIFY the artistic side of anything! If you can't quantify it, you can't reasonably certify it. I guess I'm old school. I come from the time when there was no understanding of media and methods. There were these things called computers made out of lots of vacuum tubes and we had to learn to rigorously talk their language (except somewhat for Bouroughs :-) ) and we had to translate real world needs into these bizarre, literal language structures with no schematic for how to do so (except the IF statement -- that's a really good one!). So we winged it. I am also a musician. certifying musicians is total bullshit. You can be TRAINED, a little, to use the tools of the art but, if one is really good, one can shake off most of that crap and begin to be an artist. I'm glad I no longer make my living in computers 'cause folks, it's getting to be way too regimented and structured for my artist's taste... Certify away!! Cheers; Hal Kaplan wrote: = [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chet Gardiner = Subject: Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty! = = The real reason is that programming is an art, not a science... = = Can't certify art... = Chet, you are absolutely right that programming is an art. So is ... An architect designing a building. A plumber wiping a sweat joint just right to make it look good. A dentist matching the color of a replacement tooth to the rest of the mouth. An attorney doing a benefit performance in front of a jury. A surgeon making just the right incision to get the job done ... no more, no less. And the list goes on. No, you cannot certify art (let alone define it) but every artist has an understanding of his media and his methods and the ramifications of his actions. And that understanding can be quantified and certified and should be. B+ HALinNY [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
You're right. It was the white TRADE unions** who were keeping out those others. I was stretching an argument when I didn't have to. Silly me. :-) Hmmm, are lives at risk from bad BUSINESS programming practices? I can see where lives could be at risk from programmers who write process control programs for nucular power plants or automobiles. Interesting question, eh? C PS: No matter, m$ is still evil -- there I brought it back on-topic... ** We need ONE BIG UNION of all of the working class or we'll just continue to all get screwed... www.iww.org http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1576754146/ref=nosim/thomhartmann/ www.thomhartmann.com Hal Kaplan wrote: = [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chet Gardiner = = And yet, still, 90% of lawyers and doctors are only = maginally competent at best... = = As for plumbers and carpenters -- certification is not = designed to weed out the incompetent but rather to raise the = bar for entry into lucrative professions to the favored few. = In many cases, originally, it was to keep out the Blacks = and the Irish. s = = Basic business skills are irrelevant to a good computer = program and, if you believe the many pro-m$ types, so are ethics... = Chet, you are kidding, right? Plumbers are certified because the lives of people are at risk from bad plumbing practices. Remember that in most jurisdictions, plumbers also handle natural gas installations too. Carpentry certification is also based on public safety. The line about keeping out minorities is certainly true but the trade unions are primarily responsible for that. B+ HALinNY [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
= [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chet Gardiner = Hmmm, are lives at risk from bad BUSINESS programming = practices? I can see where lives could be at risk from = programmers who write process control programs for nucular = power plants or automobiles. Interesting question, eh? = = C Hey, if Big Jim Collisimo had computers when he was running his business, we may never have heard of Al Capone g. Seriously, every once in a while we hear how someone on Social Security or Medicare stops getting their benefits because they died. If you are on a fixed income and your checkie does not show up, that could be pretty close to life-threatening. Or if the electricity to your iron lung is shut off for alleged failure to pay the bill. As a retiree, you should start becoming a lot more interested in these kinds of scenarios, Pops. B+ HALinNY P.S. And M$ is not evil, it's just drawn badly s ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
I was rather pleased at how quickly and efficiently that nasty government bureaucracy, the SSA, got me signed up and money dropping into my account... Hal Kaplan wrote: = [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chet Gardiner = Hmmm, are lives at risk from bad BUSINESS programming = practices? I can see where lives could be at risk from = programmers who write process control programs for nucular = power plants or automobiles. Interesting question, eh? = = C Hey, if Big Jim Collisimo had computers when he was running his business, we may never have heard of Al Capone g. Seriously, every once in a while we hear how someone on Social Security or Medicare stops getting their benefits because they died. If you are on a fixed income and your checkie does not show up, that could be pretty close to life-threatening. Or if the electricity to your iron lung is shut off for alleged failure to pay the bill. As a retiree, you should start becoming a lot more interested in these kinds of scenarios, Pops. B+ HALinNY P.S. And M$ is not evil, it's just drawn badly s [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
And yet, still, 90% of lawyers and doctors are only maginally competent at best... And 95% of all statistical claims are made up on the fly. Gil -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chet Gardiner Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 3:15 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty! And yet, still, 90% of lawyers and doctors are only maginally competent at best... As for plumbers and carpenters -- certification is not designed to weed out the incompetent but rather to raise the bar for entry into lucrative professions to the favored few. In many cases, originally, it was to keep out the Blacks and the Irish. s Basic business skills are irrelevant to a good computer program and, if you believe the many pro-m$ types, so are ethics... Ted Roche wrote: On 1/18/07, Chet Gardiner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The real reason is that programming is an art, not a science... Can't certify art... Practitioners might argue that good practice of many professions qualify as art: medicine, law, plumbing, carpentry... basic proficiency and perhaps basic business skills and ethics ought to be testable, shouldn't they? [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
But the basics of these professions: the chemistry of life, anatomy, legal precedent, torts, etc. are independent of commercialism. Intel and AMD may be making a lot of bits, but they did not invent them. A thorough understanding of algorithmic principles, database, some math, regression, ETHICS, etc. is what should qualify someone to be a computer professional. Computer science # programming Programming # math (not since the 1970s, anyway) Hardware # algorithmic principles There are too many subspecialties here for them all to be covered under the same rubric. But just within the field of programming alone, using modern languages like VFP or Python, it's quite possible to do a very good job without knowing any of the theoretical esoterica of Computer Science, or any math higher than basic algebra. And in many situations proper choice and configuration of hardware is just as important as good software. The minute you try to create a standardized licensing exam in the area of programming, you step onto the cratered battleground of Which language is best? and Static vs Dynamic Typing. Since this is a religious war, the hapless standardizer is doomed to be crucified. Not to mention the inevitable result of credentialing and licensure in many situations--it increases labor costs without necessarily increasing the quality of the work done. To tackle the ethics issue--the most important one, IMO--the answer is to make it a criminal offense, punishable by fines and jail time, for a computer professional to falsely represent the characteristics of a product or service, or to tell customers they need to replace hardware or software that isn't broken--just as such practices are now illegal in the automobile sales and repair industries. Ken Dibble www.stic-cil.org ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
At 11:22 PM 1/16/2007 -0800, Chet Gardiner wrote: Very, Very old news. We knew this many, many years ago... That's one of the reasons the DOJ (under GHWB and Clinton) hauled their asses into court only to have gwb let them off the hook... ... Well, in some ways it is new news to all the MS defenders out there who said, No way. MS would never do something like that. If they got caught, people wouldn't use their software any more. IMO, the gov doesn't understand the real problem with MS, and I seriously doubt they have the smarts to figure out a good way to deal with MS. In reality, the best way to handle a company like MS is to hit them in the pocket book. Don't use their software. Promote alternatives at every opportunity. The saddest thing is computer professionals will still continue to use and promote MS. I'll bet this will have little impact on most of the MS-heads out there. And the others that already knew/suspected MS's dirty deeds have already started looking elsewhere. So in the end, this probably won't cause a lot of uproar - at least not in the US. Our IT people are just too lazy to care, and the PHBs are just too stupid to understand. Of course, this won't stop me from mentioning this fact whenever I get the chance. :-) -Charlie Dave Crozier wrote: ...Microsoft used undocumented APIs that allowed its developers to write programs that worked better with Windows than competitors', according to the latest testimony in the Iowa antitrust action against the company ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Ok, now I remember. Obviously, WE would have written the better app! John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Stephen the Cook Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:48 PM To: 'ProFox Email List' Subject: RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty! john harvey wrote: Nope, I don't remember... what were we trying to do again? There was talk of which sig could write the better app. We were going to go first and delete access from our app as I remember. :) Stephen Russell DBA / .Net Developer Memphis TN 38115 901.246-0159 Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. http://spaces.msn.com/members/srussell/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/631 - Release Date: 1/16/2007 8:25 AM [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
On Jan 17, 2007, at 8:25 AM, Charlie Coleman wrote: The saddest thing is computer professionals will still continue to use and promote MS. I'll bet this will have little impact on most of the MS-heads out there. Imagine if there were the equivalent to the Hippocratic Oath for computer professionals. Or imagine the converse: that doctors made their recommendations not on the best interests of the patient, but on what would generate the most revenue for the doctor himself; that they acted like medical whores in the way of our illustrious data whores. The attitude of most computer professionals is more akin to that of lawyers: milk the client for whatever you can simply because you can. -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Ed Leafe wrote: The attitude of most computer professionals is more akin to that of lawyers: milk the client for whatever you can simply because you can. Sad, but true. And that's what taints our professional and gives us the black eye. -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions! ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
= = Ed Leafe wrote: = The attitude of most computer professionals is more = akin to that of = lawyers: milk the client for whatever you can simply = because you can. = = = Sad, but true. And that's what taints our professional and = gives us the = black eye. = = -- = = Michael J. Babcock, MCP = I know Ed does not like lawyers but I do not know why. It really is a shame how 95% of the profession makes things bad for the other 5%. Personally, I think lawyer is a pejorative term and I insist that my wife refer to herself as an attorney at law. Every operating system I have ever worked with has had undocumented hooks for the benefit of favored software to accomplish something not easily done otherwise. I have even written some. They are generally of great benefit. Perhaps M$ has overdone this or perhaps some developer is looking for a non-self-incriminating answer for his lack of success. The bottom line is that in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty insignificant. IMHO, the real problem with computer professionals is that they are NOT. Unlike other professionals, computer pros do not share a common educational background, participate in any kind of regulated/documented journeyman program, and are not tested or licensed by a government body charged with protecting the public safety (usually the state education department). In New York City, for example, PLUMBERS have a more rigorous career path than programmers or database admins or network admins. Hell, even I qualify as a computer professional ME And to the best of my knowledge, every effort to get computer pros on the same track as doctors, lawyers, accountants, plumbers, electricians, etc., has been met with extreme resistance (except by the U.S. Department of Labor in an effort to avoid having to pay us overtime). This type of government oversight has been sought-out by the other professions as a means of elevating and legitimizing themselves. Computer professionals, on the other hand, have spent countless hours developing high-level-languages and user-friendly-software that is designed to commoditize computer professionalism instead of elevate it. Yes, even the soccer mom who knows how to use QuickBooks is a computer professional. YMMV. B+ HALinNY ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Hal Kaplan wrote: I know Ed does not like lawyers but I do not know why. It really is a shame how 95% of the profession makes things bad for the other 5%. Personally, I think lawyer is a pejorative term and I insist that my wife refer to herself as an attorney at law. Every operating system I have ever worked with has had undocumented hooks for the benefit of favored software to accomplish something not easily done otherwise. I have even written some. They are generally of great benefit. Perhaps M$ has overdone this or perhaps some developer is looking for a non-self-incriminating answer for his lack of success. The bottom line is that in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty insignificant. IMHO, the real problem with computer professionals is that they are NOT. Unlike other professionals, computer pros do not share a common educational background, participate in any kind of regulated/documented journeyman program, and are not tested or licensed by a government body charged with protecting the public safety (usually the state education department). In New York City, for example, PLUMBERS have a more rigorous career path than programmers or database admins or network admins. Hell, even I qualify as a computer professional ME And to the best of my knowledge, every effort to get computer pros on the same track as doctors, lawyers, accountants, plumbers, electricians, etc., has been met with extreme resistance (except by the U.S. Department of Labor in an effort to avoid having to pay us overtime). This type of government oversight has been sought-out by the other professions as a means of elevating and legitimizing themselves. Computer professionals, on the other hand, have spent countless hours developing high-level-languages and user-friendly-software that is designed to commoditize computer professionalism instead of elevate it. Yes, even the soccer mom who knows how to use QuickBooks is a computer professional. YMMV. I too wish they would require some sort of testing of qualifications. I was hopeful back in the 90s when I heard Ted Roche speak at WhilFest about certification (iirc) that the day would come..but it never did. And the major vendors--Oracle, M$, Novell, etc.--tried to I guess you could say with their certification tests--but I contend that that was simply another source of revenue for them, as I attended a New Horizons training for MCSD and it simply seemed like a diploma mill kind of thing where they really didn't care if you knew it or not. They just wanted their $$. -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions! ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Hal Kaplan wrote: I know Ed does not like lawyers but I do not know why. It really is a shame how 95% of the profession makes things bad for the other 5%. Excellent! IMHO, the real problem with computer professionals is that they are NOT. Unlike other professionals, computer pros do not share a common educational background, participate in any kind of regulated/documented journeyman program, and are not tested or licensed by a government body charged with protecting the public safety (usually the state education department). In New York City, for example, PLUMBERS have a more rigorous career path than programmers or database admins or network admins. That's because plumbing changes very little, so a standard set of skills and exams can be developed and honed over time. With computing everything changes too quickly for these things to take shape. By the time you have become an NT guru it is out of date. Your MCSD etc. does not have an unlimited life span. Changing hardware also does not help. Hell, even I qualify as a computer professional ME Let's not go overboard ;-) Just my .02 Peter ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
= That's because plumbing changes very little, so a standard = set of skills and exams can be developed and honed over = time. With computing everything changes too quickly for = these things to take shape. By the time you have become an = NT guru it is out of date. Your MCSD etc. does not have an = unlimited life span. Changing hardware also does not help. = Hell, even I qualify as a computer professional ME = Let's not go overboard ;-) = = Just my .02 = = Peter = All professions change on a recurring basis ... medicine, law, plumbing (new materials practices), and computers as well. This was recognized about 15 years ago when Continuing Education requirements were enacted (at least in New York state). True, many of the CE programs are jokes, but that is a different issue. The basics of computers and computing have not changed in over a hundred years, only the methods of implementing them and arranging them. So why shouldn't there be a requirement for such knowledge? And how many WinME users are still out there? Don't they have a right to expect the same level of expertise as anyone else? (WindowsME?? Nah.) Are you going to say that medicine has not changed because people still breathe the same way they did 5,000 years ago? Not a reasonable comparison, Mr. C. ... and this from a man who shares the name of a great coronary surgeon g. B+ HALinNY ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
On Jan 17, 2007, at 12:16 PM, MB Software Solutions wrote: I too wish they would require some sort of testing of qualifications. The only way that that would work is if the testing/certification body was impartial. Try to find one of those these days. -- Ed Leafe -- http://leafe.com -- http://dabodev.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
On Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:03 PM Ed Leafe wrote: The only way that that would work is if the testing/certification body was impartial. Try to find one of those these days. Flash back to when there was a committee to standardize the XBase language and each company that produced like products like dBase, Clipper, and FoxPro wanted their product to be the standard. David L. Crooks ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
David Crooks wrote: On Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:03 PM Ed Leafe wrote: The only way that that would work is if the testing/certification body was impartial. Try to find one of those these days. Flash back to when there was a committee to standardize the XBase language and each company that produced like products like dBase, Clipper, and FoxPro wanted their product to be the standard. And the second problem is that all of the folks in the biz would want to be grandfathered in. Who in their right mind would submit to having to gain credentials (that they may or may not be qualified to earn) to do what they've been doing for the last 10 or 20 years? So, just like the answer about how God created the world in 6 days He didn't have to worry about the installed base. Whil ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
= And the second problem is that all of the folks in the biz = would want to be grandfathered in. Who in their right mind = would submit to having to gain credentials (that they may or = may not be qualified to earn) to do what they've been doing = for the last 10 or 20 years? = = So, just like the answer about how God created the world in = 6 days = He didn't have to worry about the installed base. = = Whil = During those 6 days, G-d did not create the AMA, ABA, AIA, AICPA, or any other professional group except perhaps for clergy. The installed base existed for all of these professions and it is now all a matter of history. Some practioners fared better than others but on the whole society gained. BTW, you do not need a degree in architecture to be an architect, or a law degree to be an attorney (I am not sure about medicine and accounting). You can become a licensed professional through well-documented experience. Of course you still need to take and pass the state licensing exam. And I dare say that if a similarly-structured arrangement existed for people like us, a good number would pass the exam and gain grandfather status, others would fail, and still others would walk away or do nothing because the effective date for all of the lead-ins to congeal would probably be 6 to 10 years off. What is needed to achieve widespread licensing is a catalyst such as a massive lapse of public safety or security that could be laid at the feet of the profession as it exists today. There are no questions of impartiality or any nonsense like that. Those arguments are specious. All professions have competing suppliers who will do almost anything to get and keep business ... ruthlessly and illegally too! But the basics of these professions: the chemistry of life, anatomy, legal precedent, torts, etc. are independent of commercialism. Intel and AMD may be making a lot of bits, but they did not invent them. A thorough understanding of algorithmic principles, database, some math, regression, ETHICS, etc. is what should qualify someone to be a computer professional. B+ HALinNY ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Hal Kaplan wrote: snipped A thorough understanding of algorithmic principles, database, some math, regression, ETHICS, etc. is what should qualify someone to be a computer professional. Perhaps that's why most of these charge 'em as much as you can bozos and other non-ethical folks (who, for example, draft bogus EULAs) don't want this! -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions! ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
On 1/17/07, Ed Leafe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The only way that that would work is if the testing/certification body was impartial. Try to find one of those these days. How about A+ or LPI or ICCP? There are a lot of attempts.I believe one will eventually succeed. Then there'll be a period of competing standards and eventually a part will emerge. Computing as a profession is a lot younger than engineering or medicine. It will take time. ACM and IEEE have been working on this, too. -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Hal wrote: ...A thorough understanding of algorithmic principles, database, some math, regression, ETHICS, etc. is what should qualify someone to be a computer professional TOTALLY WRONG Hal I'm afraid. The thing that qualifies someone to be a computer professional in its true sense (where software is concerned anyhow) is the ability to write GOOD software, and the definition of good will change depending upon the environment you are working in. Good in an emergency situation is a fix that works and gets the system live again however it is done. Good in a production environment means reliable and stable. Good in a performance dictated situation means fast and reliable. It's just like driving. All drivers make mistakes, the difference between a good driver and a bad driver is that the good driver will always know whenever he/she has made a mistake and the majority of outsiders/onlookers will never ever notice the mistake. The bad driver is just a danger to others because he doesn't understand the ramification(s) of making a mistake - or even worse, what a mistake constitutes. Remember you dont have to be able to read music to be a great musician. I'll take natural talent as opposed to paper qualifications any day of the week. Try and teach dancing to someone who has no sense of rhythm and you'll see exactly what I mean. Having all the paper qualifications only gives you a head start in the ability to understand basic methodology but there is absolutely NO substitute for experience and natural ability in this business. Dave Crozier -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hal Kaplan Sent: 17 January 2007 20:55 To: ProFox Email List Subject: RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty! = And the second problem is that all of the folks in the biz = would want to be grandfathered in. Who in their right mind = would submit to having to gain credentials (that they may or = may not be qualified to earn) to do what they've been doing = for the last 10 or 20 years? = = So, just like the answer about how God created the world in = 6 days = He didn't have to worry about the installed base. = = Whil = During those 6 days, G-d did not create the AMA, ABA, AIA, AICPA, or any other professional group except perhaps for clergy. The installed base existed for all of these professions and it is now all a matter of history. Some practioners fared better than others but on the whole society gained. BTW, you do not need a degree in architecture to be an architect, or a law degree to be an attorney (I am not sure about medicine and accounting). You can become a licensed professional through well-documented experience. Of course you still need to take and pass the state licensing exam. And I dare say that if a similarly-structured arrangement existed for people like us, a good number would pass the exam and gain grandfather status, others would fail, and still others would walk away or do nothing because the effective date for all of the lead-ins to congeal would probably be 6 to 10 years off. What is needed to achieve widespread licensing is a catalyst such as a massive lapse of public safety or security that could be laid at the feet of the profession as it exists today. There are no questions of impartiality or any nonsense like that. Those arguments are specious. All professions have competing suppliers who will do almost anything to get and keep business ... ruthlessly and illegally too! But the basics of these professions: the chemistry of life, anatomy, legal precedent, torts, etc. are independent of commercialism. Intel and AMD may be making a lot of bits, but they did not invent them. A thorough understanding of algorithmic principles, database, some math, regression, ETHICS, etc. is what should qualify someone to be a computer professional. B+ HALinNY [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Dave Crozier wrote: ...Microsoft used undocumented APIs that allowed its developers to write programs that worked better with Windows than competitors', according to the latest testimony in the Iowa antitrust action against the company .Alepin had earlier claimed that Microsoft ran special demonstration programs whose sole purpose was to crash rival products and alleged that the company had subverted developers who used Microsoft's version of Java 'thinking they were developing multi-platform applications, but were actually developing Windows-specific applications'.. http://tinyurl.com/yj7oxy Naughty Microsoft, As if they would do this sort of thing. It must be spin put out by the opposition BG. But will they be held accountable (i.e., be punished) for their misdeeds or get off scott free ??? -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions! ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
On 1/16/07, Dave Crozier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Naughty Microsoft, As if they would do this sort of thing. It must be spin put out by the opposition BG. No, a search for Windows Undocumented APIs hardly reveals any decades-long patterns at all... -- Ted Roche Ted Roche Associates, LLC http://www.tedroche.com ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Ted Roche wrote: On 1/16/07, Dave Crozier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Naughty Microsoft, As if they would do this sort of thing. It must be spin put out by the opposition BG. No, a search for Windows Undocumented APIs hardly reveals any decades-long patterns at all... Why would they not document themis it merely an oversight or as Dave's reference suggests, something underhanded? -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions! ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Dave Crozier wrote: ...Microsoft used undocumented APIs that allowed its developers to write programs that worked better with Windows than competitors', according to the latest testimony in the Iowa antitrust action against the company .Alepin had earlier claimed that Microsoft ran special demonstration programs whose sole purpose was to crash rival products and alleged that the company had subverted developers who used Microsoft's version of Java 'thinking they were developing multi-platform applications, but were actually developing Windows-specific applications'.. http://tinyurl.com/yj7oxy Hey John Harvey, remember when we wanted to do this at a programing event for the MPCUG? Stephen Russell DBA / .Net Developer Memphis TN 38115 901.246-0159 Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. http://spaces.msn.com/members/srussell/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/631 - Release Date: 1/16/2007 8:25 AM ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Stephen the Cook wrote: Dave Crozier wrote: ...Microsoft used undocumented APIs that allowed its developers to write programs that worked better with Windows than competitors', according to the latest testimony in the Iowa antitrust action against the company .Alepin had earlier claimed that Microsoft ran special demonstration programs whose sole purpose was to crash rival products and alleged that the company had subverted developers who used Microsoft's version of Java 'thinking they were developing multi-platform applications, but were actually developing Windows-specific applications'.. http://tinyurl.com/yj7oxy Hey John Harvey, remember when we wanted to do this at a programing event for the MPCUG? Ok, Steve.what happened? -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions! ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Nope, I don't remember... what were we trying to do again? John -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MB Software Solutions Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:54 PM To: profox@leafe.com Subject: Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty! Stephen the Cook wrote: Dave Crozier wrote: ...Microsoft used undocumented APIs that allowed its developers to write programs that worked better with Windows than competitors', according to the latest testimony in the Iowa antitrust action against the company .Alepin had earlier claimed that Microsoft ran special demonstration programs whose sole purpose was to crash rival products and alleged that the company had subverted developers who used Microsoft's version of Java 'thinking they were developing multi-platform applications, but were actually developing Windows-specific applications'.. http://tinyurl.com/yj7oxy Hey John Harvey, remember when we wanted to do this at a programing event for the MPCUG? Ok, Steve.what happened? -- Michael J. Babcock, MCP MB Software Solutions, LLC http://mbsoftwaresolutions.com http://fabmate.com Work smarter, not harder, with MBSS custom software solutions! [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
RE: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
john harvey wrote: Nope, I don't remember... what were we trying to do again? There was talk of which sig could write the better app. We were going to go first and delete access from our app as I remember. :) Stephen Russell DBA / .Net Developer Memphis TN 38115 901.246-0159 Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. http://spaces.msn.com/members/srussell/ -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/631 - Release Date: 1/16/2007 8:25 AM ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
Re: [NF] Microsoft Caught out - Naughty, Naughty!
Very, Very old news. We knew this many, many years ago... That's one of the reasons the DOJ (under GHWB and Clinton) hauled their asses into court only to have gwb let them off the hook... Dave Crozier wrote: ...Microsoft used undocumented APIs that allowed its developers to write programs that worked better with Windows than competitors', according to the latest testimony in the Iowa antitrust action against the company .Alepin had earlier claimed that Microsoft ran special demonstration programs whose sole purpose was to crash rival products and alleged that the company had subverted developers who used Microsoft's version of Java 'thinking they were developing multi-platform applications, but were actually developing Windows-specific applications'.. http://tinyurl.com/yj7oxy Naughty Microsoft, As if they would do this sort of thing. It must be spin put out by the opposition BG. Dave Crozier [excessive quoting removed by server] ___ Post Messages to: ProFox@leafe.com Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
