[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Marc40a]

John,

I'll reach out to you when I get home. I'm about your size (6' tall, my 
saddle height is 77.5 from saddle center to crank center.)

I have a 56 Sam (57.5 TT)  that I'm reluctantly selling this spring in MA.  
I have pics, measurements, advice. 

Best,
Marc

 

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 2:38:19 AM UTC-5, John W wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes.
>
> I'm 6' tall with an 85PBH (say, 86.25 PBH with shoes.) Saddle height 
> ~75cm, a Brooks B17 which runs about 6cm tall.
>
> Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I could ride a 58. I'll ride on 
> pavement and trails. Less so, gnarly track. And I'll set up drop bars about 
> 1cm lower than my saddle. 
>
> My concerns are:
>
> — will I have enough exposed stem above the headset and cable hanger in 
> front?
> — will the bike handle oddly with just ~2cm of exposed stem?
> — am I setting myself up for the inability to use taller upright bars in 
> the future?
>
> I cribbed this photo from a fellow with a shorter saddle height than me:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/4354827488/in/pool-hillborne/
>
> The 55 is the safe bet, while the 58 looks doable. 
>
> I'm cautious of getting a bike that's too small for me. Generally 
> speaking, I'm a 56cm on Surly road frames and I don't feel stretched out on 
> them.
>
> What say you? 55 or 58?
>
> Separately, looking at the geo charts on Riv's site, the Stack and Reach 
> measurements on the Sam Hillbornes look off to me, but perhaps I'm not 
> correctly parsing the effect of the 71.5 STA.
>
> Apologies for the naval gazing email. Any input would be appreciated.
>
> John in NYC
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[John Woo]

Thanks Minh. I agree. I think the longest TT I'd want to run on the Sam is
57.5mm. (The early oranges did have a 59mm.)

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 10:14 AM, Minh  wrote:

> John,
>
> I'm a little late but i will add my 2 cents, i'm 6ft tall with a
> 32inch'ish inseam and ride a 60cm QB (with Albas) and an early orange 56cm
> with drops+80mm stem--which the geo-charts says has a 59tt.  the Sam is a
> little long for me, especially if i do a lot of riding stretched out on the
> hoods.
>
> i'd follow chris' advice and think about what you want to run wrt
> handlebars and pay attention to the TT measurement against another bike you
> know fits. and of course if you can find someone local to test ride that's
> best, i'm surprised there isn't a lister in the NYC area with one!
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Minh]

>
> John,

I'm a little late but i will add my 2 cents, i'm 6ft tall with a 32inch'ish 
inseam and ride a 60cm QB (with Albas) and an early orange 56cm with 
drops+80mm stem--which the geo-charts says has a 59tt.  the Sam is a little 
long for me, especially if i do a lot of riding stretched out on the hoods.

i'd follow chris' advice and think about what you want to run wrt 
handlebars and pay attention to the TT measurement against another bike you 
know fits. and of course if you can find someone local to test ride that's 
best, i'm surprised there isn't a lister in the NYC area with one!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[John Woo]

Thanks Chris for the advice. 

I’m guessing that you were straddling a 58cm, which has roughly an 85cm 
standover, with 32ish-mm tires. 

Although with shoes on, I’d think you’d be able to at least stand over that 
bike.  

> On Feb 19, 2018, at 9:46 PM, Christopher Murray  
> wrote:
> 
> In 2012 I went to Rivendell with the intent of getting a 56cm Sam. I was in 
> San Francisco for business and was hoping to bring it home with me. Waterford 
> was making them at the time. I have a 84.75cm PBH and have a 57cm Bleriot, 
> 56cm Quickbeam, 55cm Appa. I'd also ridden a 56cm Atlantis and 56cm Ram. 
> Kevin was there and he got the bike ready for me and it didn't fit. I 
> couldn't stand over the top tube. I went home empty handed. I recently talked 
> to Riv about the 55.5cm Rosco and Grant said it should fit but couldn't 
> explain why the 56cm Sam didn't. The best guess was it was actually a 58cm. I 
> passed on the Rosco because I couldn't shake that experience with the Sam. 
> With a 58cm and a PBH of 85, I'd be concerned about stand over height 
> especially with bigger tires. I think the 55cm would be the safe choice.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Chris
> 
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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Christopher Murray]

In 2012 I went to Rivendell with the intent of getting a 56cm Sam. I was in San 
Francisco for business and was hoping to bring it home with me. Waterford was 
making them at the time. I have a 84.75cm PBH and have a 57cm Bleriot, 56cm 
Quickbeam, 55cm Appa. I'd also ridden a 56cm Atlantis and 56cm Ram. Kevin was 
there and he got the bike ready for me and it didn't fit. I couldn't stand 
over the top tube. I went home empty handed. I recently talked to Riv about the 
55.5cm Rosco and Grant said it should fit but couldn't explain why the 56cm Sam 
didn't. The best guess was it was actually a 58cm. I passed on the Rosco 
because I couldn't shake that experience with the Sam. With a 58cm and a PBH of 
85, I'd be concerned about stand over height especially with bigger tires. I 
think the 55cm would be the safe choice.

Good luck!

Chris

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[John Bokman]

I would go smaller if running drops. I was in between sizes in 2009, got 
the larger frame (60cm) and wished I'd gotten the smaller (56) because the 
top tube was so long. Even with a short 7 cm stem, it was too long for me, 
although standover was adequate. 7 years later, I got a smaller Sam (58cm) 
and it's perfect. Mind you, this is for a rider who rides with drop bars 
below saddle level. i still prefer the short stem. My legs are long 
relative to my torso.

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 7:36:11 PM UTC-8, Scott McLain wrote:
>
> I similar measurements to you 5-11, 87cm inseam.  I ride a size 58 LHT and 
> a size 59 Riv AHH.  I would go with the smaller sam if I intended to run 
> drop bars.  It’s reach is very similar to the 58 LHT and 59 AHH. 
>
> If you are going upright bars, you can go either way.  A bosco bar will 
> eat up lots of top tube.  There was a great pic on this list of a 60 chev 
> with a slammed boscomoose! Not sure I would do that with a Sam but just 
> sayin you could. 
>
> I would trust the Riv guys if I was buying new. 
>
> What color, now that is a really hard question! 
>
> Good Luck! 
>
> Scott 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Scott McLain]

I similar measurements to you 5-11, 87cm inseam.  I ride a size 58 LHT and a 
size 59 Riv AHH.  I would go with the smaller sam if I intended to run drop 
bars.  It’s reach is very similar to the 58 LHT and 59 AHH. 

If you are going upright bars, you can go either way.  A bosco bar will eat up 
lots of top tube.  There was a great pic on this list of a 60 chev with a 
slammed boscomoose! Not sure I would do that with a Sam but just sayin you 
could.

I would trust the Riv guys if I was buying new.

What color, now that is a really hard question!

Good Luck!

Scott

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Sean McRobert]

FYI, I noticed this 56cm 2 TT Sam for sale.  
https://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/bik/d/rivendell-sam-hillborne-steel/6500174394.html
  
I'm not affiliated with the seller.

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:37:03 PM UTC-5, John W wrote:
>
> Thank you everyone for your very patient advice. I've concluded that a 
> current 55 or even better, a 56 with the 57.5 TT, is the way to go for me. 
> Basically, what Riv recommends!
>
> John
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Bill Lindsay]

John W 

Yes there was a single top tube cantilever brake 56cm Sam Hillborne with a 
57.5cm effective top tube length. That’s what I have. I purchased it in 
December 2009. My saddle height is 75.5cm.  It’s splendid. I’m 5’10”. Contact 
me off list if you want to go through measurements. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, Ca. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[John Woo]

But weren’t there also “56” Sams (700c wheels) with 57.5 effective measurement, 
single top tubes?

“55” and “56”... I hesitate to ask, but does that refer to the seat tube 
measurement, c-to-top, right? If not, how does one get that measurement if it’s 
not on the geo chart?



On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Surlyprof  wrote:
>> Yup - it was the old 52cm Sam that had the 57.5 TT, while the 56cm had a 59 
>> TT - pretty sure this was generation 1 and 2, with the first gen having 
>> canti's, and the second gen having sidepulls (my green double TT 60cm had 
>> sidepulls), according to this old geometry chart that used to be linked from 
>> somewhere on Riv's site:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gfiN1kOxVrthdc6eScUF9fP5n-BvRBILbBMYiEg5LM4/edit#gid=0
> 
> -Jeff
> Silver Spring, MD
> 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Jeff Lesperance]

On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 9:49 AM, Surlyprof  wrote:

> John,
>
> I'm pretty sure the green, first run Sam's actually had a 59 tt.  Riv
> could probably confirm this.  That might be a great fit.  I do think those
> first 56s had a double tt, which I always coveted, but some dislike.  All a
> matter of preference.
>
>
Yup - it was the old 52cm Sam that had the 57.5 TT, while the 56cm had a 59
TT - pretty sure this was generation 1 and 2, with the first gen having
canti's, and the second gen having sidepulls (my green double TT 60cm had
sidepulls), according to this old geometry chart that used to be linked
from somewhere on Riv's site:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gfiN1kOxVrthdc6eScUF9fP5n-BvRBILbBMYiEg5LM4/edit#gid=0

-Jeff
Silver Spring, MD

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Surlyprof]

John,

I'm pretty sure the green, first run Sam's actually had a 59 tt.  Riv could 
probably confirm this.  That might be a great fit.  I do think those first 
56s had a double tt, which I always coveted, but some dislike.  All a 
matter of preference.

Good luck on your quest.
John

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 5:37:03 PM UTC-8, John W wrote:
>
> Thank you everyone for your very patient advice. I've concluded that a 
> current 55 or even better, a 56 with the 57.5 TT, is the way to go for me. 
> Basically, what Riv recommends!
>
> John
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[John Woo]

Around 9 or 10cm, depending on which drop bars I decide to use. 

> On Feb 17, 2018, at 7:32 AM, eflayer  wrote:
> 
> How long do you think your stem will be on a 56? Just curious.
> 
>> On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 11:38:19 PM UTC-8, John W wrote:
>> Hello folks,
>> 
>> I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes.
>> 
>> I'm 6' tall with an 85PBH (say, 86.25 PBH with shoes.) Saddle height ~75cm, 
>> a Brooks B17 which runs about 6cm tall.
>> 
>> Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I could ride a 58. I'll ride on 
>> pavement and trails. Less so, gnarly track. And I'll set up drop bars about 
>> 1cm lower than my saddle. 
>> 
>> My concerns are:
>> 
>> — will I have enough exposed stem above the headset and cable hanger in 
>> front?
>> — will the bike handle oddly with just ~2cm of exposed stem?
>> — am I setting myself up for the inability to use taller upright bars in the 
>> future?
>> 
>> I cribbed this photo from a fellow with a shorter saddle height than me:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/4354827488/in/pool-hillborne/
>> 
>> The 55 is the safe bet, while the 58 looks doable. 
>> 
>> I'm cautious of getting a bike that's too small for me. Generally speaking, 
>> I'm a 56cm on Surly road frames and I don't feel stretched out on them.
>> 
>> What say you? 55 or 58?
>> 
>> Separately, looking at the geo charts on Riv's site, the Stack and Reach 
>> measurements on the Sam Hillbornes look off to me, but perhaps I'm not 
>> correctly parsing the effect of the 71.5 STA.
>> 
>> Apologies for the naval gazing email. Any input would be appreciated.
>> 
>> John in NYC
> 
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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[eflayer]

How long do you think your stem will be on a 56? Just curious.

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 11:38:19 PM UTC-8, John W wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes.
>
> I'm 6' tall with an 85PBH (say, 86.25 PBH with shoes.) Saddle height 
> ~75cm, a Brooks B17 which runs about 6cm tall.
>
> Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I could ride a 58. I'll ride on 
> pavement and trails. Less so, gnarly track. And I'll set up drop bars about 
> 1cm lower than my saddle. 
>
> My concerns are:
>
> — will I have enough exposed stem above the headset and cable hanger in 
> front?
> — will the bike handle oddly with just ~2cm of exposed stem?
> — am I setting myself up for the inability to use taller upright bars in 
> the future?
>
> I cribbed this photo from a fellow with a shorter saddle height than me:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/4354827488/in/pool-hillborne/
>
> The 55 is the safe bet, while the 58 looks doable. 
>
> I'm cautious of getting a bike that's too small for me. Generally 
> speaking, I'm a 56cm on Surly road frames and I don't feel stretched out on 
> them.
>
> What say you? 55 or 58?
>
> Separately, looking at the geo charts on Riv's site, the Stack and Reach 
> measurements on the Sam Hillbornes look off to me, but perhaps I'm not 
> correctly parsing the effect of the 71.5 STA.
>
> Apologies for the naval gazing email. Any input would be appreciated.
>
> John in NYC
>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[John W]

Thank you everyone for your very patient advice. I've concluded that a 
current 55 or even better, a 56 with the 57.5 TT, is the way to go for me. 
Basically, what Riv recommends!

John

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Re: [RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[John Woo]

All very excellent points, Jeremy. Thanks. 


> On Feb 16, 2018, at 11:09 AM, Jeremy Till  wrote:
> 
> I'd say go with the 55.  For a number of reasons: 
> 
> -Rivendell knows the fit of their bikes pretty well, and they generally err 
> on the side of larger frame sizes, so if they're telling you to go for a 
> smaller frame, chances are that's probably going to be big enough for you. 
> -You are going for a drop bar setup with the bars just below the saddle, 
> which again, puts you on in the camp of running relatively low bars in 
> Rivendell terms.  In my mind, this is another point in favor of going for a 
> smaller frame.  I think there's a real chance you wouldn't be able to get the 
> bars low enough on the larger frame.  
> -Numerous folks on here have reported sizing up on the Sam but later coming 
> to the conclusion that it is too big for them.  
> 
> When you say, "I know I could ride a 58cm," what leads you to that 
> conclusion?  Have you test ridden a 58cm Sam?  Or is it from riding other 
> 58cm road bikes?  You mention riding a 56cm Surly later in the post.  
> Remember that the up-sloping top tube on the Sam makes it fit larger than its 
> measured seat tube size, so a 55cm Sam probably would fit the same as a 58 or 
> 59cm Surly or other road bike with a level top tube, just with more exposed 
> seatpost.  
> 
> Even after you take this into account, there are other more subtle features 
> of a Rivendell that increase bar height: all of their upper head tube lugs 
> feature a headtube extension above the top tube, and they tend to leave their 
> forks a little on the long side, so the top nut of the headset is pretty 
> high.  So there's a lot of extra bar height built into that 55cm Sam already 
> over your 56 Surly.
> 
>> On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 11:38:19 PM UTC-8, John W wrote:
>> Hello folks,
>> 
>> I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes.
>> 
>> I'm 6' tall with an 85PBH (say, 86.25 PBH with shoes.) Saddle height ~75cm, 
>> a Brooks B17 which runs about 6cm tall.
>> 
>> Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I could ride a 58. I'll ride on 
>> pavement and trails. Less so, gnarly track. And I'll set up drop bars about 
>> 1cm lower than my saddle. 
>> 
>> My concerns are:
>> 
>> — will I have enough exposed stem above the headset and cable hanger in 
>> front?
>> — will the bike handle oddly with just ~2cm of exposed stem?
>> — am I setting myself up for the inability to use taller upright bars in the 
>> future?
>> 
>> I cribbed this photo from a fellow with a shorter saddle height than me:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/4354827488/in/pool-hillborne/
>> 
>> The 55 is the safe bet, while the 58 looks doable. 
>> 
>> I'm cautious of getting a bike that's too small for me. Generally speaking, 
>> I'm a 56cm on Surly road frames and I don't feel stretched out on them.
>> 
>> What say you? 55 or 58?
>> 
>> Separately, looking at the geo charts on Riv's site, the Stack and Reach 
>> measurements on the Sam Hillbornes look off to me, but perhaps I'm not 
>> correctly parsing the effect of the 71.5 STA.
>> 
>> Apologies for the naval gazing email. Any input would be appreciated.
>> 
>> John in NYC
> 
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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Austin]

I've wondered this about my Sam too. I'm a hair under 6'3", 93cm PBH, 82cm 
seat height on a 62cm frame with a 90mm stem. I've always felt the bike is 
a little big and wondered if a 60 would be better. Of course they don't 
make 60's any more. Maybe I need to find someone with a 60cm frame that is 
on the small side and make a swap



On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 10:29:34 AM UTC-5, Dave Small wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
> My experience may help you decide, but to cut to the chase:  I'd recommend 
> not going outside Riv's PBH recommendations, and in fact I don't want to go 
> even to the edge of their recommended range.  
>
> In 2012 I bought a green 60cm first-run Sam.  I worked with a dealer in 
> Ohio and test-rode a 56cm and a 60cm.  I could have bought either one, but 
> at the time I was new to Riv and went with the larger size in part to test 
> their opinion that "most people buy too small" and their advice that, when 
> in doubt, go bigger.  I'm 6' 2" with a PBH of 88 cm, which was within the 
> recommended range of the 56cm *and* the 60cm frame sizes, but was at the 
> top of the former and the bottom of the latter.  
>
> I could never love that Sam.  It was okay, but always felt a little too 
> big, even after riding it enough that I'd have acclimated if the issue was 
> just that it wasn't what I was used to.  I questioned whether it was the 
> size, the specific model, or (gads!) a fallacy of the whole Riv philosophy, 
> since all were new to me at the time.  I *wanted* to love it, and I 
> *tried*---I really did!---but I just never felt it the way I wanted to or 
> expected to.  
>
> Then, a couple of years ago I bought a used 58cm Homer Hilsen in large 
> part to give Riv another chance because what they espouse still resonated 
> with me, and I suspected that the size was the problem, not the model or 
> the company's design philosophy.  I loved the Hilsen immediately, and after 
> my first ride told my wife that if I were forced to reduce to N=1, that the 
> Hilsen was a strong candidate to be that one.  
>
> With that renewed confidence in Riv, a couple of years ago I bought a 58cm 
> Sam when they became available with a single top tube in that size, and 
> loved it immediately.  The differences in "feel" between that and the 60cm 
> Sam were subtle but real, and took me over the hump from "okay" to "love." 
>  Last fall I bought a 58cm canti-Sam during their presale and will transfer 
> everything from the 60cm first-run Sam (which had cantis) to the new one 
> and then sell the green 60cm frame.  
>
> Based on my experience with Sams, I want to be solidly in the middle of 
> Riv's PBH range-recommendation.  Not at the edge, and certainly not outside 
> it.  I was at the bottom of the range for the 60cm Sam, while you're 2 cm 
> below the bottom edge of the range.  You say you're concerned about getting 
> a bike that's too small for you, but you should also be concerned about 
> getting a bike that's too big for you; neither one will fit well.  
>
> My last comment:  You say "Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I 
> could ride a 58" and that the 58 "looks doable," but that's the kind of 
> language I'd expect if someone were giving you a 58cm Sam free of charge 
> and you were wondering if it would work at all.  You have a choice, so why 
> not go for the optimal size?  I can ride my 60cm Sam, and it's quite 
> "doable," but it's not optimal and I want optimal if I can get it.  
>
> Dave 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[adam leibow]

Hey John,


I just bought a 58cm SH and I am 5'-9" with 87.5 PBH. I have very long legs 
for my height, so I figured I could fit the bigger size and I was right. 
The TT is proportionally long but it feels good with 7cm stem and 46cm 
noodles. I would forsure go 58 if it were me. Depends how low/high you want 
the bars. I like bars & saddle to be about even, and this does the trick. 

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 11:38:19 PM UTC-8, John W wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes.
>
> I'm 6' tall with an 85PBH (say, 86.25 PBH with shoes.) Saddle height 
> ~75cm, a Brooks B17 which runs about 6cm tall.
>
> Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I could ride a 58. I'll ride on 
> pavement and trails. Less so, gnarly track. And I'll set up drop bars about 
> 1cm lower than my saddle. 
>
> My concerns are:
>
> — will I have enough exposed stem above the headset and cable hanger in 
> front?
> — will the bike handle oddly with just ~2cm of exposed stem?
> — am I setting myself up for the inability to use taller upright bars in 
> the future?
>
> I cribbed this photo from a fellow with a shorter saddle height than me:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/4354827488/in/pool-hillborne/
>
> The 55 is the safe bet, while the 58 looks doable. 
>
> I'm cautious of getting a bike that's too small for me. Generally 
> speaking, I'm a 56cm on Surly road frames and I don't feel stretched out on 
> them.
>
> What say you? 55 or 58?
>
> Separately, looking at the geo charts on Riv's site, the Stack and Reach 
> measurements on the Sam Hillbornes look off to me, but perhaps I'm not 
> correctly parsing the effect of the 71.5 STA.
>
> Apologies for the naval gazing email. Any input would be appreciated.
>
> John in NYC
>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Surlyprof]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/129545862@N03/19238298132/in/dateposted-public/

Here's a photo of my 56 with Smart Sams.  Those are the biggest tires I can 
get on there.  Saddle height is 75.

John

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 8:32:21 AM UTC-8, Surlyprof wrote:
>
> I am 5’11” with an 85 pbh and ride a 56.  I use an albastache bar with an 
> 8cm stem or an albatross bar with an 11.  Mine is the year they shortened 
> the top tube from 59 (green, first run) to 57.5 if I remember correctly and 
> it fits great.  I was initially concerned about the standover height 
> because it got very close when using 45 Smart Sam tires.  For that reason 
> I’d be concerned about the 58.  On the chance that you might want to max 
> out you tire size, the higher standover might be a problem.  Given your 
> proportions, you may have to go to a longer stem but that would depend 
> partially on your arm length, too. 
>
> Good luck.  Sam’s a great bike. 
>
> John

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Re: [RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[tc]

Link to my google photos album. Both mine and wife’s Sams are in there. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9kfJxuf3sXyDyBoA3

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[John W]

My PBH is 85. 

The geo chart can be found here:
https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry

The reach seems significantly shorter and the stack significantly higher than 
I’d expect, even having ridden similar compact frames like the Vaya and Awol. 

I’m not saying the number are wrong, but head scratching to someone like me who 
has never ridden a Riv “expanded” geo frame. Hence my poll. 

A picture is worth a thousand words. Anyone have a photo of their 56cm Sam 
(59cm TT) with a saddle height in my neighborhood?

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[John W]

To clarify, I don’t mean to say that the stack is wrong, just a bit higher than 
I’d expect, even with an upslope. This is going on past experience with compact 
frames, and having ridden others’ off the peg frames like the Awol and Vaya. 

https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry

The stack (vertical height from center of bottom bracket to top 
tube/headtubeintersection) is 64.5cm on a size 58 frame. 

My PBH is 85. With shoes on I can comfortably ride my 56cm Disc Trucker, which 
has an 85cm standover with 50mm Marathons. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[John Woo]

Thanks Tom. Good data points. 

Could you perhaps snap a photo of your wife’s bike? I’m curious about the stem 
height and length, although I’d be running drop bars. 


> On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:34 AM, tc  wrote:
> 
> I'd say 58, esp. if you're gonna mostly ride pavement or packed trails.
> 
> My wife rides her 58 Sam with a 74.9 saddle height which exposes about 4" of 
> seatpost.  She's 5'-9.5" and is mostly legs, with a PBH of 87.5, so her reach 
> isn't as long as yours (...and her actual saddle height is lower than PBH - 
> 11).  Her albatross bars are up high and she loves it.  It's a road/paved 
> greenway bike for her; she has an Anthem for offroading.
> 
> I'm 6' - 0.5" tall with a PBH of 90.5.  Actual saddle height is 78.7 (...also 
> less than PBH - 11).  I have a Noodle-equipped 58 Sam and love it.  I have a 
> a hair less than 5" of seatpost showing and about 4" of stem showing, but the 
> bars are a tad higher than the saddle because of the great geo of the Sam.
> 
> I know it's frustrating when you think you're in between sizes!
> 
> Tom
> 

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[tc]

I should mention that my wife's 58 Sam with albatross bars has a 120mm 
Tallux stem.  My 58 Sam with Noodle bar has a 70mm Tallux stem.

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 9:34:22 AM UTC-5, tc wrote:
>
> I'd say 58, esp. if you're gonna mostly ride pavement or packed trails.
>
> My wife rides her 58 Sam with a 74.9 saddle height which exposes about 4" 
> of seatpost.  She's 5'-9.5" and is mostly legs, with a PBH of 87.5, so her 
> reach isn't as long as yours (...and her actual saddle height is lower than 
> PBH - 11).  Her albatross bars are up high and she loves it.  It's a 
> road/paved greenway bike for her; she has an Anthem for offroading.
>
> I'm 6' - 0.5" tall with a PBH of 90.5.  Actual saddle height is 78.7 
> (...also less than PBH - 11).  I have a Noodle-equipped 58 Sam and love 
> it.  I have a a hair less than 5" of seatpost showing and about 4" of stem 
> showing, but the bars are a tad higher than the saddle because of the great 
> geo of the Sam.
>
> I know it's frustrating when you think you're in between sizes!
>
> Tom
>
> On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 2:38:19 AM UTC-5, John W wrote:
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Jeremy Till]

I'd say go with the 55.  For a number of reasons: 

-Rivendell knows the fit of their bikes pretty well, and they generally err 
on the side of larger frame sizes, so if they're telling you to go for a 
smaller frame, chances are that's probably going to be big enough for you. 
-You are going for a drop bar setup with the bars just below the saddle, 
which again, puts you on in the camp of running relatively low bars in 
Rivendell terms.  In my mind, this is another point in favor of going for a 
smaller frame.  I think there's a real chance you wouldn't be able to get 
the bars low enough on the larger frame.  
-Numerous folks on here have reported sizing up on the Sam but later coming 
to the conclusion that it is too big for them.  

When you say, "I know I could ride a 58cm," what leads you to that 
conclusion?  Have you test ridden a 58cm Sam?  Or is it from riding other 
58cm road bikes?  You mention riding a 56cm Surly later in the post.  
Remember that the up-sloping top tube on the Sam makes it fit larger than 
its measured seat tube size, so a 55cm Sam probably would fit the same as a 
58 or 59cm Surly or other road bike with a level top tube, just with more 
exposed seatpost.  

Even after you take this into account, there are other more subtle features 
of a Rivendell that increase bar height: all of their upper head tube lugs 
feature a headtube extension above the top tube, and they tend to leave 
their forks a little on the long side, so the top nut of the headset is 
pretty high.  So there's a lot of extra bar height built into that 55cm Sam 
already over your 56 Surly.

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 11:38:19 PM UTC-8, John W wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes.
>
> I'm 6' tall with an 85PBH (say, 86.25 PBH with shoes.) Saddle height 
> ~75cm, a Brooks B17 which runs about 6cm tall.
>
> Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I could ride a 58. I'll ride on 
> pavement and trails. Less so, gnarly track. And I'll set up drop bars about 
> 1cm lower than my saddle. 
>
> My concerns are:
>
> — will I have enough exposed stem above the headset and cable hanger in 
> front?
> — will the bike handle oddly with just ~2cm of exposed stem?
> — am I setting myself up for the inability to use taller upright bars in 
> the future?
>
> I cribbed this photo from a fellow with a shorter saddle height than me:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/4354827488/in/pool-hillborne/
>
> The 55 is the safe bet, while the 58 looks doable. 
>
> I'm cautious of getting a bike that's too small for me. Generally 
> speaking, I'm a 56cm on Surly road frames and I don't feel stretched out on 
> them.
>
> What say you? 55 or 58?
>
> Separately, looking at the geo charts on Riv's site, the Stack and Reach 
> measurements on the Sam Hillbornes look off to me, but perhaps I'm not 
> correctly parsing the effect of the 71.5 STA.
>
> Apologies for the naval gazing email. Any input would be appreciated.
>
> John in NYC
>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Jonathan D.]

I am an 85pbh but six foot. I don’t have long legs. I stood over a 58 at Rivelo 
this weekend after talking with you. It could work but felt big and not much 
stand over room. I would think a 55 would be great with drops and if you can 
find a 56 if you run Albatross. I would go smaller. As Bill says buy one and 
enjoy and I am sure you can always sell and try a different size if that 
doesn’t work. 

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[lconley]

> I am 6' tall with a 83.5 PBH - short legs, lng torso. I ride a 56cm 
>> Sam (last generation - Double TT) it is too "big" for me according to Riv's 
>> sizing recommendations, But I need to put the seat back all the way on the 
>> post and use a 100 cm stem with drops. Because my body proportions are 
>> several standard deviations from the norm, I have almost always ridden a 
>> bike that is too "big" for me. Years ago when I bought a LeMond Buenos 
>> Aires, the shop measured my pubic bone height and tried to put me on a 54 
>> cm frame. It was comically undersized, even the salesman agreed. I ride 
>> what is comfortable to ride, not what I can comfortably straddle when I 
>> stop. 
>>
>
You are in a tough spot, I think the 55 would be ideal for me, but you are 
in between the two sizes. If you are going drops I would say 58, upright - 
55. 
 

>  
>>
>> Laing
>>
>> Cocoa, FL
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Dave Small]

Hi John,

My experience may help you decide, but to cut to the chase:  I'd recommend 
not going outside Riv's PBH recommendations, and in fact I don't want to go 
even to the edge of their recommended range.  

In 2012 I bought a green 60cm first-run Sam.  I worked with a dealer in 
Ohio and test-rode a 56cm and a 60cm.  I could have bought either one, but 
at the time I was new to Riv and went with the larger size in part to test 
their opinion that "most people buy too small" and their advice that, when 
in doubt, go bigger.  I'm 6' 2" with a PBH of 88 cm, which was within the 
recommended range of the 56cm *and* the 60cm frame sizes, but was at the 
top of the former and the bottom of the latter.  

I could never love that Sam.  It was okay, but always felt a little too 
big, even after riding it enough that I'd have acclimated if the issue was 
just that it wasn't what I was used to.  I questioned whether it was the 
size, the specific model, or (gads!) a fallacy of the whole Riv philosophy, 
since all were new to me at the time.  I *wanted* to love it, and I *tried*---I 
really did!---but I just never felt it the way I wanted to or expected to.  

Then, a couple of years ago I bought a used 58cm Homer Hilsen in large part 
to give Riv another chance because what they espouse still resonated with 
me, and I suspected that the size was the problem, not the model or the 
company's design philosophy.  I loved the Hilsen immediately, and after my 
first ride told my wife that if I were forced to reduce to N=1, that the 
Hilsen was a strong candidate to be that one.  

With that renewed confidence in Riv, a couple of years ago I bought a 58cm 
Sam when they became available with a single top tube in that size, and 
loved it immediately.  The differences in "feel" between that and the 60cm 
Sam were subtle but real, and took me over the hump from "okay" to "love." 
 Last fall I bought a 58cm canti-Sam during their presale and will transfer 
everything from the 60cm first-run Sam (which had cantis) to the new one 
and then sell the green 60cm frame.  

Based on my experience with Sams, I want to be solidly in the middle of 
Riv's PBH range-recommendation.  Not at the edge, and certainly not outside 
it.  I was at the bottom of the range for the 60cm Sam, while you're 2 cm 
below the bottom edge of the range.  You say you're concerned about getting 
a bike that's too small for you, but you should also be concerned about 
getting a bike that's too big for you; neither one will fit well.  

My last comment:  You say "Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I 
could ride a 58" and that the 58 "looks doable," but that's the kind of 
language I'd expect if someone were giving you a 58cm Sam free of charge 
and you were wondering if it would work at all.  You have a choice, so why 
not go for the optimal size?  I can ride my 60cm Sam, and it's quite 
"doable," but it's not optimal and I want optimal if I can get it.  

Dave 

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[lconley]

I am 6' tall with a 53.5 PBH - short legs, lng torso. I ride a 56cm Sam 
(last generation - Double TT) it is too "big" for me according to Riv's 
sizing recommendations, But I need to put the seat back all the way on the 
post and use a 100 cm stem with drops. Because my body proportions are 
several standard deviations from the norm, I have almost always ridden a 
bike that is too "big" for me. Years ago when I bought a LeMond Buenos 
Aires, the shop measured my pubic bone height and tried to put me on a 54 
cm frame. It was comically undersized, even the salesman agreed. I ride 
what is comfortable to ride, not what I can comfortably straddle when I 
stop. 

Laing
Cocoa, FL


>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Edwin W]

I am a hair over 6'0 with a PBH of 90cm and had a 60cm Sam that fit very 
well. I think if I were getting one now I would be battleing between 58 and 
62. My first instinct was to say "58," but the best bet is to talk it 
through with Riv. 

Now on a 58 Joe,

Edwin

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 1:38:19 AM UTC-6, John W wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes.
>
> I'm 6' tall with an 85PBH (say, 86.25 PBH with shoes.) Saddle height 
> ~75cm, a Brooks B17 which runs about 6cm tall.
>
> Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I could ride a 58. I'll ride on 
> pavement and trails. Less so, gnarly track. And I'll set up drop bars about 
> 1cm lower than my saddle. 
>
> My concerns are:
>
> — will I have enough exposed stem above the headset and cable hanger in 
> front?
> — will the bike handle oddly with just ~2cm of exposed stem?
> — am I setting myself up for the inability to use taller upright bars in 
> the future?
>
> I cribbed this photo from a fellow with a shorter saddle height than me:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/4354827488/in/pool-hillborne/
>
> The 55 is the safe bet, while the 58 looks doable. 
>
> I'm cautious of getting a bike that's too small for me. Generally 
> speaking, I'm a 56cm on Surly road frames and I don't feel stretched out on 
> them.
>
> What say you? 55 or 58?
>
> Separately, looking at the geo charts on Riv's site, the Stack and Reach 
> measurements on the Sam Hillbornes look off to me, but perhaps I'm not 
> correctly parsing the effect of the 71.5 STA.
>
> Apologies for the naval gazing email. Any input would be appreciated.
>
> John in NYC
>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Belopsky]

I'm 5'7 and 83PBH and a 55/56 SH was too big for drops but fine w pullback 
bars or a short stem and drops but didnt like the sloping top tube look so 
sold

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 9:54:52 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:
>
> I'm 5'11"and and have an 84 PBH.  I ride 56 Hillborne and 54 Hunqapillar. 
>  They are both incredibly comfortable. 
>
> Marc
>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[tc]

I'd say 58, esp. if you're gonna mostly ride pavement or packed trails.

My wife rides her 58 Sam with a 74.9 saddle height which exposes about 4" 
of seatpost.  She's 5'-9.5" and is mostly legs, with a PBH of 87.5, so her 
reach isn't as long as yours (...and her actual saddle height is lower than 
PBH - 11).  Her albatross bars are up high and she loves it.  It's a 
road/paved greenway bike for her; she has an Anthem for offroading.

I'm 6' - 0.5" tall with a PBH of 90.5.  Actual saddle height is 78.7 
(...also less than PBH - 11).  I have a Noodle-equipped 58 Sam and love 
it.  I have a a hair less than 5" of seatpost showing and about 4" of stem 
showing, but the bars are a tad higher than the saddle because of the great 
geo of the Sam.

I know it's frustrating when you think you're in between sizes!

Tom

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 2:38:19 AM UTC-5, John W wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes
>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Carla Waugh]

I ride a 55cm and I’m 5’9” and It’s fine.

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[Belopsky]

>From the sounds of this, you have shorter legs? What is your PBH

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 7:18:55 AM UTC-5, eflayer wrote:
>
> I am 5'11 and I ride the biggest bikes of any one my height that I know. I 
> think my body proportions are not really abnormal in any way. I can ride a 
> 59 or 60 top tube and still have about an 110 mm stem. I have never ridden 
> anything with a 61 top tube as in a 60 Sam. I prefer as much headtube as I 
> can get to get the bars even or a bit higher than my saddle and to avoid 
> upjutting stems. At 6' you may have longer arms and more top tube may be 
> just right for you.
>
> On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 11:38:19 PM UTC-8, John W wrote:
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes.
>>
>> I'm 6' tall with an 85PBH (say, 86.25 PBH with shoes.) Saddle height 
>> ~75cm, a Brooks B17 which runs about 6cm tall.
>>
>> Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I could ride a 58. I'll ride 
>> on pavement and trails. Less so, gnarly track. And I'll set up drop bars 
>> about 1cm lower than my saddle. 
>>
>> My concerns are:
>>
>> — will I have enough exposed stem above the headset and cable hanger in 
>> front?
>> — will the bike handle oddly with just ~2cm of exposed stem?
>> — am I setting myself up for the inability to use taller upright bars in 
>> the future?
>>
>> I cribbed this photo from a fellow with a shorter saddle height than me:
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/4354827488/in/pool-hillborne/
>>
>> The 55 is the safe bet, while the 58 looks doable. 
>>
>> I'm cautious of getting a bike that's too small for me. Generally 
>> speaking, I'm a 56cm on Surly road frames and I don't feel stretched out on 
>> them.
>>
>> What say you? 55 or 58?
>>
>> Separately, looking at the geo charts on Riv's site, the Stack and Reach 
>> measurements on the Sam Hillbornes look off to me, but perhaps I'm not 
>> correctly parsing the effect of the 71.5 STA.
>>
>> Apologies for the naval gazing email. Any input would be appreciated.
>>
>> John in NYC
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[eflayer]

I apologize if my posting was confusing. Not sure what the current Sam geo 
actually is since it is not easily found on the Riv website.

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 11:38:19 PM UTC-8, John W wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes.
>
> I'm 6' tall with an 85PBH (say, 86.25 PBH with shoes.) Saddle height 
> ~75cm, a Brooks B17 which runs about 6cm tall.
>
> Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I could ride a 58. I'll ride on 
> pavement and trails. Less so, gnarly track. And I'll set up drop bars about 
> 1cm lower than my saddle. 
>
> My concerns are:
>
> — will I have enough exposed stem above the headset and cable hanger in 
> front?
> — will the bike handle oddly with just ~2cm of exposed stem?
> — am I setting myself up for the inability to use taller upright bars in 
> the future?
>
> I cribbed this photo from a fellow with a shorter saddle height than me:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/4354827488/in/pool-hillborne/
>
> The 55 is the safe bet, while the 58 looks doable. 
>
> I'm cautious of getting a bike that's too small for me. Generally 
> speaking, I'm a 56cm on Surly road frames and I don't feel stretched out on 
> them.
>
> What say you? 55 or 58?
>
> Separately, looking at the geo charts on Riv's site, the Stack and Reach 
> measurements on the Sam Hillbornes look off to me, but perhaps I'm not 
> correctly parsing the effect of the 71.5 STA.
>
> Apologies for the naval gazing email. Any input would be appreciated.
>
> John in NYC
>

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[RBW] Re: Informal poll: Sam Hillborne sizing, 6' tall about an 85PBH?

[eflayer]

I am 5'11 and I ride the biggest bikes of any one my height that I know. I 
think my body proportions are not really abnormal in any way. I can ride a 
59 or 60 top tube and still have about an 110 mm stem. I have never ridden 
anything with a 61 top tube as in a 60 Sam. I prefer as much headtube as I 
can get to get the bars even or a bit higher than my saddle and to avoid 
upjutting stems. At 6' you may have longer arms and more top tube may be 
just right for you.

On Thursday, February 15, 2018 at 11:38:19 PM UTC-8, John W wrote:
>
> Hello folks,
>
> I'm reaching out for some input regarding current Sam Hillbornes.
>
> I'm 6' tall with an 85PBH (say, 86.25 PBH with shoes.) Saddle height 
> ~75cm, a Brooks B17 which runs about 6cm tall.
>
> Riv recommends a size 55 frame, but I know I could ride a 58. I'll ride on 
> pavement and trails. Less so, gnarly track. And I'll set up drop bars about 
> 1cm lower than my saddle. 
>
> My concerns are:
>
> — will I have enough exposed stem above the headset and cable hanger in 
> front?
> — will the bike handle oddly with just ~2cm of exposed stem?
> — am I setting myself up for the inability to use taller upright bars in 
> the future?
>
> I cribbed this photo from a fellow with a shorter saddle height than me:
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/37347002@N05/4354827488/in/pool-hillborne/
>
> The 55 is the safe bet, while the 58 looks doable. 
>
> I'm cautious of getting a bike that's too small for me. Generally 
> speaking, I'm a 56cm on Surly road frames and I don't feel stretched out on 
> them.
>
> What say you? 55 or 58?
>
> Separately, looking at the geo charts on Riv's site, the Stack and Reach 
> measurements on the Sam Hillbornes look off to me, but perhaps I'm not 
> correctly parsing the effect of the 71.5 STA.
>
> Apologies for the naval gazing email. Any input would be appreciated.
>
> John in NYC
>

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