Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Garth]

Very well Steve , I am glad you settled that for yourself !  ☺

Funny, it is just like that on the bike trail isn't it ?   We make our 
assesments of what people may mean  by what we see , but there is always a 
whole lot more to the story than meets the eye, or I of the story.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/03/2017 10:05 AM, Garth wrote:
  Everyone is a Fred to somebody !  Ahahaha so much for 
definitions as being anything definite, since everything is up for 
interpretation, everyone walking around trying to figure out the 
meaning of things  . . .  Eventually it just makes no sense, since 
every definition depends on another definition, a comparing of 
relativities, but in relation to what source , what Absolute ? Whats 
being compared ?   . . .. and in the silence you hear a laughter like 
never before


So, you're basically saying words are meaningless.  I can see why you 
might think so...



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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Garth]

 Yeah  it's just some guy's blog ,his opinions and such, who by his own 
profile page :

*While I love cycling and embrace it in all its forms, I'm also extremely 
> critical. So I present to you my venting for your amusement and betterment. 
> No offense meant to the critiqued. Always keep riding!*



   I too see the humor of it all , it's just one person's opinions. He his 
who he is  whoever he is !!!  

Words are fluid, and all you gotta do is look around and word meanings are 
far from "standardized" and universal, even yes and no. 

 
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 2:16:58 PM UTC-5, Bob K. wrote:
>
> Steve commented:
>
>> Well, there's a difference between the evolution of word meanings as show 
>> in that article and what we have here.  This was not gradual evolution, it 
>> was a charismatic writer who simply used it wrong, exactly opposite to the 
>> accepted meaning, and all his acolytes simply went along.
>>
> But the same thing happened with the words on the TED list, right? 
> Someone, at some moment in the past, used a word incorrectly. Their 
> incorrect use of the word influenced someone else (an "acolyte") to do the 
> same, and so on and so forth, n*ice* no longer means *silly*. It means 
> pleasant or agreeable. In other words, what we now see as an evolution of 
> the meaning of the word *nice *was really just a choice made by one 
> person that ended up catching on, just like BSNYC's use of the word Fred, 
> and I don't think it makes a difference if it takes ten years or 100 for 
> the new meaning to catch on.
>
> On a related note, I think BSNYC is hilarious.
>
> Bob K. in Baltimore
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I only started cycling for recreation and fitness n 2001, at the age of 40 so 
maybe it is understandable that I only know the term Fred through BSNYC, whom I 
find to be quite funny. He is, to be sure, merciless on amateur riders who buy 
wheelsets that cost more than a new Roadeo frame. To be fair, though, he is 
merciless on himself as well. And he's buddies with Grant, which is a plus in 
my book. Before discovering Riv I was well on my way to becoming a carbon fiber 
riding weight weenie, although I still wear (on rides longer than 2-3 hours) 
lycra. It does work well for that.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Robert Keal]

Steve commented:

> Well, there's a difference between the evolution of word meanings as show
> in that article and what we have here.  This was not gradual evolution, it
> was a charismatic writer who simply used it wrong, exactly opposite to the
> accepted meaning, and all his acolytes simply went along.
>
But the same thing happened with the words on the TED list, right? Someone,
at some moment in the past, used a word incorrectly. Their incorrect use of
the word influenced someone else (an "acolyte") to do the same, and so on
and so forth, n*ice* no longer means *silly*. It means pleasant or
agreeable. In other words, what we now see as an evolution of the meaning
of the word *nice *was really just a choice made by one person that ended
up catching on, just like BSNYC's use of the word Fred, and I don't think
it makes a difference if it takes ten years or 100 for the new meaning to
catch on.

On a related note, I think BSNYC is hilarious.

Bob K. in Baltimore

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Steve Palincsar]

Well, there's a difference between the evolution of word meanings as 
show in that article and what we have here.  This was not gradual 
evolution, it was a charismatic writer who simply used it wrong, exactly 
opposite to the accepted meaning, and all his acolytes simply went 
along.  A bit like a plumber deciding this




belonged on the right side...

I find BSNYC contemptible.


On 01/03/2017 01:37 PM, Bob K. wrote:

So it goes, or so it seems.

http://ideas.ted.com/20-words-that-once-meant-something-very-different/




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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Bob K.]

So it goes, or so it seems.

http://ideas.ted.com/20-words-that-once-meant-something-very-different/

Bob K. in Baltimore

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Steve Palincsar]

It's amazing: he uses it wrong and everyone follows along...


On 01/03/2017 01:10 PM, Bob K. wrote:

I first heard the term "Fred" as applied to roadies from BikeSnobNYC. He may've 
been partly responsible for the change in meaning.




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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Bob K.]

I first heard the term "Fred" as applied to roadies from BikeSnobNYC. He may've 
been partly responsible for the change in meaning.

Bob K. in Baltimore

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[George Schick]

Rod - yes, that's my understanding of how the term changed, too.  That's 
happened to lots of other words and terms over the years, as well.  Take 
"hacker" for example.  That used to mean an electronics hobbyist who fooled 
around with bread-boarded components back in the day when personal 
computing was in its infancy.  Then it got morphed into the evil meaning it 
has nowadays, largely by the media, I believe.  But, again, the meaning of 
"freds" appears to be location dependent to some extent.

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 10:47:08 AM UTC-6, Rod Holland wrote:
>
> The term "fred" used to be associated with touring cyclists (c.f. the old 
> phreds mailing list), and was sometimes expanded to Fenders and Racks Every 
> Day. Some time in the last decade there was a sense inversion, and the name 
> started getting hung on kitted carbon riders (with the implication that 
> their gear is faster than their skill); I associate that shift with the 
> Bike Snob, but only because that's where I first encontered it. 
>
> Seems to me the old usage was actually embraced as a positive identity by 
> many of those it described, while the newer usage is merely derogatory.
>
> rod
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Garth]

>
> everybody can relate ..
>

 

> 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Rod Holland]

The term "fred" used to be associated with touring cyclists (c.f. the old 
phreds mailing list), and was sometimes expanded to Fenders and Racks Every 
Day. Some time in the last decade there was a sense inversion, and the name 
started getting hung on kitted carbon riders (with the implication that their 
gear is faster than their skill); I associate that shift with the Bike Snob, 
but only because that's where I first encontered it. 

Seems to me the old usage was actually embraced as a positive identity by many 
of those it described, while the newer usage is merely derogatory.

rod

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Garth]

Yes - exactly !  !
ahahahaahahahahahahahah 



On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 10:42:21 AM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Except to George Carlin.  If you're slower than him you're an idiot, and 
> if you're faster than him you're a maniac.  
>
> On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 9:05:29 AM UTC-6, Garth wrote:
>>
>>   Everyone is a Fred to somebody !  Ahahaha 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Garth]

Patrick, that's my sense of humor , some get it, some don't . .  it's all 
good .

 I ams what I ams and that's all that I ams .  . .   Pop-eye the sailor man 
, toot toot !  Or in this case . . . ding a ling a ling long along the 
trail of life . 

>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[lum gim fong]

Last year in my town a cyclist hit a child, breaking the child's femur on a MUP.
He was described as a 30-40 year old white or latino person in racing kit with 
a red and white bike with red rims.
 As far as I know they still haven't caught him.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

Except to George Carlin.  If you're slower than him you're an idiot, and if 
you're faster than him you're a maniac.  

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 9:05:29 AM UTC-6, Garth wrote:
>
>   Everyone is a Fred to somebody !  Ahahaha 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/03/2017 10:13 AM, Patrick Moore wrote:
Garth: f there are no definitions, and one thing means the same thing 
as anything else, why does that leave you room to pontificate on 
meaning? So, why do you bother to speak at all? And why should anyone 
bother to read what you say?


Do you really believe yourself what you say below? I expect you really 
don't, and that you are really just trolling.


On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Garth > wrote:


.so much for definitions as being anything definite, since
everything is up for interpretation, everyone walking around
trying to figure out the meaning of things  . . .  Eventually it
just makes no sense, since every definition depends on another
definition, a comparing of relativities, but in relation to what
source , what Absolute ? Whats being compared ?   . . .. and in
the silence you hear a laughter like never before

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Steve Palincsar]

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/internet-bob


On 01/03/2017 09:49 AM, lum gim fong wrote:

What's a Bob?



You, basically, only you haven't found the group yet.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Patrick Moore]

Garth: f there are no definitions, and one thing means the same thing as
anything else, why does that leave you room to pontificate on meaning? So,
why do you bother to speak at all? And why should anyone bother to read
what you say?

Do you really believe yourself what you say below? I expect you really
don't, and that you are really just trolling.

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 8:05 AM, Garth  wrote:

> .so much for definitions as being anything definite, since everything
> is up for interpretation, everyone walking around trying to figure out the
> meaning of things  . . .  Eventually it just makes no sense, since every
> definition depends on another definition, a comparing of relativities, but
> in relation to what source , what Absolute ? Whats being compared ?   . .
> .. and in the silence you hear a laughter like never before
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Garth]

  Everyone is a Fred to somebody !  Ahahaha so much for definitions as 
being anything definite, since everything is up for interpretation, 
everyone walking around trying to figure out the meaning of things  . . .  
Eventually it just makes no sense, since every definition depends on 
another definition, a comparing of relativities, but in relation to what 
source , what Absolute ? Whats being compared ?   . . .. and in the silence 
you hear a laughter like never before

  Yeah. . . .  Like the Dean Martin song goes . .. . Everybody Loves 
Somebody Sometime    even a "fred".   "Ain't That a Kick in the Head"  
indeed  . . .   "That's A-moore-eh" !!!







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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[lum gim fong]

What's a Bob?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

exactly

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 8:05:36 AM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>
> I have never heard the term Fred to denote a racer type persona.   It has 
> been used since the mid80s in person and in magazines to describe what now 
> is a BoB.   
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Scott Henry]

I have never heard the term Fred to denote a racer type persona.   It has
been used since the mid80s in person and in magazines to describe what now
is a BoB.


On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 2:01 PM, George Schick  wrote:

> The term "fred" seems to have morphed into a myriad of meanings nowadays
> (according to a look-up in the Urban Dictionary, anyway), but the way it
> gets used "locally" implies someone who portrays him/herself as a racer,
> decked out in the some of the priciest gear from head to toe, rides an
> expensive professional-class bike, and goes out on the MUP's instead of the
> street where he probably belongs, to seemingly prove to everyone else out
> there how great he is.  There are lots of riders in this area who depart
> from an LBS just down the street from me most every evening during the
> regular riding season in a large pack; but they ride and carry out their
> training entirely on the streets and roads.
>
> As far as attire is concerned, I wear lycra and have sub-35 tires, too
> (though not by much), and it's all fine.  But the freds seem to like to
> take things to the extreme even where it's impractical.  Most of the MUP's
> in this area are surfaced with compacted "limestone screenings," the fine
> and often powdery stuff that's left at the bottom after all the other sizes
> of crushed limestone rock have been sorted.  How anyone can ride on the
> stuff with something like 25's is beyond me, but you see 'em out there.
>
>
> On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 11:47:25 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 01/02/2017 11:14 AM, George Schick wrote:
>>
>> Agreed (and also with Lum Gim's comment).  And BTW, those "in lycra with
>> skinny tires" are usually known by the slang term "freds."
>>
>>
>> Are you sure?  When did that happen?  When they first started using the
>> term, it applied to us, not to them.  Googling the term, I retrieved this:
>>
>> *Fred is a derisive term used by “serious” road cyclists to describe
>> other cyclists who do not conform to serious road cyclists' norms with
>> regard to dress and equipment, and appear amateurish to them. The term is
>> generally reserved for men, while the female Fred is sometimes called a
>> “Doris.”**Apr 2, 2011*
>>
>> Sure sounds like a "roadie's" view of us...
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

Our greenways and users are all pretty nice, but always expect the 
unexpected.  
The stupidest thing of all, today there was a road bike group with 25+ 
riders on the greenway, and heading toward the busiest part of our greenway 
system.  
Luckily I had already done that part earlier in the morning and was heading 
the opposite direction.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[George Schick]

The term "fred" seems to have morphed into a myriad of meanings nowadays 
(according to a look-up in the Urban Dictionary, anyway), but the way it 
gets used "locally" implies someone who portrays him/herself as a racer, 
decked out in the some of the priciest gear from head to toe, rides an 
expensive professional-class bike, and goes out on the MUP's instead of the 
street where he probably belongs, to seemingly prove to everyone else out 
there how great he is.  There are lots of riders in this area who depart 
from an LBS just down the street from me most every evening during the 
regular riding season in a large pack; but they ride and carry out their 
training entirely on the streets and roads.

As far as attire is concerned, I wear lycra and have sub-35 tires, too 
(though not by much), and it's all fine.  But the freds seem to like to 
take things to the extreme even where it's impractical.  Most of the MUP's 
in this area are surfaced with compacted "limestone screenings," the fine 
and often powdery stuff that's left at the bottom after all the other sizes 
of crushed limestone rock have been sorted.  How anyone can ride on the 
stuff with something like 25's is beyond me, but you see 'em out there.

On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 11:47:25 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
>
> On 01/02/2017 11:14 AM, George Schick wrote:
>
> Agreed (and also with Lum Gim's comment).  And BTW, those "in lycra with 
> skinny tires" are usually known by the slang term "freds."  
>
>
> Are you sure?  When did that happen?  When they first started using the 
> term, it applied to us, not to them.  Googling the term, I retrieved this:
>
> *Fred is a derisive term used by “serious” road cyclists to describe other 
> cyclists who do not conform to serious road cyclists' norms with regard to 
> dress and equipment, and appear amateurish to them. The term is generally 
> reserved for men, while the female Fred is sometimes called a “Doris.”**Apr 
> 2, 2011*
>
> Sure sounds like a "roadie's" view of us...
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/02/2017 11:14 AM, George Schick wrote:
Agreed (and also with Lum Gim's comment).  And BTW, those "in lycra 
with skinny tires" are usually known by the slang term "freds."


Are you sure?  When did that happen?  When they first started using the 
term, it applied to us, not to them.  Googling the term, I retrieved this:

/
/

   /*Fred* is a derisive term used by “serious” road *cyclists* to
   describe other *cyclists* who do not conform to serious road
   *cyclists*' norms with regard to dress and equipment, and appear
   amateurish to them. The term is generally reserved for men, while
   the female *Fred* is sometimes called a “Doris.”//Apr 2, 2011/

Sure sounds like a "roadie's" view of us...


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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Eric Norris]

Very true. In my experience on the local MUP, rudeness/cluelessness is an equal 
opportunity ailment, affecting bikers and walkers of all stripes. Where I ride, 
most “racers” are pacelining single file, but both racers and un-racers alike 
can be seen riding 2 or more abreast, oblivious to the other people using the 
trail.

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
www.campyonly.com
campyonlyguy.blogspot.com

> On Jan 2, 2017, at 9:19 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:
> 
> Many Rivendell owners ride road bikes with sub 35 mm tires while wearing 
> lycra; let's not be foolishly elitist. 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Patrick Moore]

Many Rivendell owners ride road bikes with sub 35 mm tires while wearing
lycra; let's not be foolishly elitist.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Patrick Moore]

I hold my line and let them move. Works every time.

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 8:38 AM, lum gim fong  wrote:

> I hate when approaching loquatious cyclists and they maintain their
> abreast tracking even when they see me coming towards them. As we pass it
> feels like there's only inches between our handlebars.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[lum gim fong]

A noisy drivetrain and flicking one's brake levers works too on the unearbudded.

i'm surprised that joggers jog along with earbuds in both ears. I think I 
remember my wife telling me that the local library had the police there to talk 
give a seminar on safety  or something like that and they said not to have 
earbuds in when you're on the trails.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Rod Holland]

Yeah, Chris King hub angry bees are a safety feature. Badly adjusted, squealing 
cantis do the job, too, and penetrate earbids reliably...

rod

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[George Schick]

Agreed (and also with Lum Gim's comment).  And BTW, those "in lycra with 
skinny tires" are usually known by the slang term "freds."  What's equally 
annoying is when riders (usually freds, it seems) are approaching a 
rider(s) from behind while there are runners or bikers coming from the 
opposite direction and they can't slow up and wait for the oncoming traffic 
to clear, but just have to dodge around them with split seconds to spare 
before colliding, often without even any announcement that they're doing so 
(and, of course, bells are out of the question for freds).

On Monday, January 2, 2017 at 9:50:17 AM UTC-6, Jon Dukeman,central 
Colorado wrote:
>
> It's annoyingThey are usually in lycra with skinny tires.
> I always say" WTF is wrong with the other side of the trail??"
> Jon
>
> "FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS RIDE JUNK "
>
> On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 8:40 AM, lum gim fong  > wrote:
>
>> Meaning the cyclists are approaching me and I'm approaching from opposite 
>> directions. .not overtaking
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Jon Dukeman]

It's annoyingThey are usually in lycra with skinny tires.
I always say" WTF is wrong with the other side of the trail??"
Jon

"FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS RIDE JUNK "

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 8:40 AM, lum gim fong  wrote:

> Meaning the cyclists are approaching me and I'm approaching from opposite
> directions. .not overtaking
>
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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[lum gim fong]

Meaning the cyclists are approaching me and I'm approaching from opposite 
directions. .not overtaking

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[lum gim fong]

I hate when approaching loquatious cyclists and they maintain their abreast 
tracking even when they see me coming towards them. As we pass it feels like 
there's only inches between our handlebars.

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

I had a really fast greenway ride today because the trails were all but 
deserted due to our s. Texas winter weather.  50 degrees, overcast and low 
humidity - it was great.  
I began in the middle, went to one end, crossed back and went back to the 
other end.  
Near that 3/4 turnaround, I could see a mother ahead through the trees 
herding 2 small kids, so I rang my first announcement bell, and another as 
I approached closer, and of course I slowed way down to ride by them.  
The mother apologized.  I told her no, you guys have a blast.  
On my way back, the mother did something really cool - she did nothing. She 
didn't lunge for her daughter on the tricycle or yell at her.  She left 
alone to broaden her own horizons.  
As I was about to pass the little girl I gave a soft ring and she looked 
over her shoulder to see where I was.  
Clearly, the mother felt safe with my awareness of her daughter.  

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[KenP]

A while back there was a discussion on using bear bells; jingle bells. Try 
a cowbell?  It constantly announces presence.  That seems to help with some 
of trail denizens..

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 8:33:06 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[sameness]

But how can I put myself in the other person's shoes when there is no 
"other", only All and Now? Or... something. I mean, or... everything!

I'm off to treat myself. I hope you all enjoy it.

(On topic: "On your left!" = the other other invariably moves left into my 
path 92% of the time. I ring early and I ring often.)

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 12:08:26 PM UTC-8, Garth wrote:
>
>  
> Put yourself in the "other" person shoes, forget who you think you are and 
> who you think they may be, forget about the circumstances, forget they were 
> known or unknown to you prior to this crossing  just 2 or more people 
> sharing the same time and space.  How would you like to be treated?, treat 
> them that way without any consideration of yourself.  Do it anyways   .  . 
> . .
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Garth]

You know Patrick of the Moore's . . .  . life really is just like a box of 
wondrous chocolates ...  . when you open the box it's gonna be everything 
it was ever going to be :)

 
On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 11:01:21 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Can we somehow remove this sort of drivel from the list?
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Eric Floden]

It sounded like terrific fun

Eric
Middle Ontario

On 29 December 2016 at 16:06, Ron Mc  wrote:

> I was having fun too
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

I was having fun too

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/29/2016 03:21 PM, Ron Mc wrote:
And you can't please everybody.  Some people are looking for offense. 
 I about decided the old man was pushing and taking up the whole path 
on purpose.
But you are doing the right and safe thing and someone is offended, 
it's all on them and not about you.


There was this one guy several times - haven't seen him in a long time 
- who made fun of my bell, singing out ICE CREAM.

I replied in my best voca musici, No, Gelato.


Sounds like he was having a bit of fun - hardly the stuff of offense, 
I'd think.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

something else for sure - if I'm panic braking, my bell is also ringing

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 2:21:46 PM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> And you can't please everybody.  Some people are looking for offense.  I 
> about decided the old man was pushing and taking up the whole path on 
> purpose.  
> But you are doing the right and safe thing and someone is offended, it's 
> all on them and not about you.  
>
> There was this one guy several times - haven't seen him in a long time - 
> who made fun of my bell, singing out ICE CREAM.  
> I replied in my best voca musici, No, Gelato.  
>
> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 2:12:58 PM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>>
>> Richard, for a bike approaching at 20 mph and even slowing to pass you at 
>> 10 mph, unless you're constantly swinging your head or wearing a rear view 
>> mirror, you can still get surprised.  
>> Sparing pedestrians the surprise and shock of our very quiet bikes is 
>> just polite - maybe it's just my very quiet bikes.  
>> In case of people with dogs, you want to give them as much warning as 
>> possible as an unfortunately majority need it to get their animals under 
>> control.  
>> I bet I haven't offended 3 pedestrians in 5 years, and the one I offended 
>> this week was randomly crossing from left to right across my path, was 
>> elderly, and I couldn't tell whether he was hard of hearing as he gave me 
>> no acknowledgement.  
>> The regular pedestrians on my routes all know me by my bell, smile and 
>> wave - even those who didn't used to.  
>>
>> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 2:04:19 PM UTC-6, Richard Rios wrote:
>>>
>>> Maybe I'm just weird but I do glance back every so often as I walk 
>>> along. Do the same on my bike. Keeps me from being surprised at least 80 
>>> percent of the time. Also most bikes are not absolutely silent usually 
>>> there will be some kind of noise that alerts me to a bike comming along. 
>>> Tire buzz, chain squeek, brake squeel, friends talking and enjoying the 
>>> ride, dirt or leaves being ran over. The only problem I find with that is 
>>> if some one is playing out racing fantasies and being a bit inconsiderate, 
>>> then they will close to fast to react to and it is a bit startling.  But 
>>> hey if having to pay some attention to what is going on in the environment 
>>> is to much to ask ...maybe I'll just go into the mirrors for pedestrians 
>>> buisness! That way they can just look straight ahead, with ear buds in, 
>>> monitoring Fit bit, smoking a pipe, drinking a cup o' joe, while reading 
>>> Ann Patchette and still see what is going on behind them !) 
>>>
>>> Richard "spider sense" Rios 
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

And you can't please everybody.  Some people are looking for offense.  I 
about decided the old man was pushing and taking up the whole path on 
purpose.  
But you are doing the right and safe thing and someone is offended, it's 
all on them and not about you.  

There was this one guy several times - haven't seen him in a long time - 
who made fun of my bell, singing out ICE CREAM.  
I replied in my best voca musici, No, Gelato.  

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 2:12:58 PM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Richard, for a bike approaching at 20 mph and even slowing to pass you at 
> 10 mph, unless you're constantly swinging your head or wearing a rear view 
> mirror, you can still get surprised.  
> Sparing pedestrians the surprise and shock of our very quiet bikes is just 
> polite - maybe it's just my very quiet bikes.  
> In case of people with dogs, you want to give them as much warning as 
> possible as an unfortunately majority need it to get their animals under 
> control.  
> I bet I haven't offended 3 pedestrians in 5 years, and the one I offended 
> this week was randomly crossing from left to right across my path, was 
> elderly, and I couldn't tell whether he was hard of hearing as he gave me 
> no acknowledgement.  
> The regular pedestrians on my routes all know me by my bell, smile and 
> wave - even those who didn't used to.  
>
> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 2:04:19 PM UTC-6, Richard Rios wrote:
>>
>> Maybe I'm just weird but I do glance back every so often as I walk along. 
>> Do the same on my bike. Keeps me from being surprised at least 80 percent 
>> of the time. Also most bikes are not absolutely silent usually there will 
>> be some kind of noise that alerts me to a bike comming along. Tire buzz, 
>> chain squeek, brake squeel, friends talking and enjoying the ride, dirt or 
>> leaves being ran over. The only problem I find with that is if some one is 
>> playing out racing fantasies and being a bit inconsiderate, then they will 
>> close to fast to react to and it is a bit startling.  But hey if having to 
>> pay some attention to what is going on in the environment is to much to ask 
>> ...maybe I'll just go into the mirrors for pedestrians buisness! That way 
>> they can just look straight ahead, with ear buds in, monitoring Fit bit, 
>> smoking a pipe, drinking a cup o' joe, while reading Ann Patchette and 
>> still see what is going on behind them !) 
>>
>> Richard "spider sense" Rios 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

Richard, for a bike approaching at 20 mph and even slowing to pass you at 
10 mph, unless you're constantly swinging your head or wearing a rear view 
mirror, you can still get surprised.  
Sparing pedestrians the surprise and shock of our very quiet bikes is just 
polite - maybe it's just my very quiet bikes.  
In case of people with dogs, you want to give them as much warning as 
possible as an unfortunately majority need it to get their animals under 
control.  
I bet I haven't offended 3 pedestrians in 5 years, and the one I offended 
this week was randomly crossing from left to right across my path, was 
elderly, and I couldn't tell whether he was hard of hearing as he gave me 
no acknowledgement.  
The regular pedestrians on my routes all know me by my bell, smile and wave 
- even those who didn't used to.  

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 2:04:19 PM UTC-6, Richard Rios wrote:
>
> Maybe I'm just weird but I do glance back every so often as I walk along. 
> Do the same on my bike. Keeps me from being surprised at least 80 percent 
> of the time. Also most bikes are not absolutely silent usually there will 
> be some kind of noise that alerts me to a bike comming along. Tire buzz, 
> chain squeek, brake squeel, friends talking and enjoying the ride, dirt or 
> leaves being ran over. The only problem I find with that is if some one is 
> playing out racing fantasies and being a bit inconsiderate, then they will 
> close to fast to react to and it is a bit startling.  But hey if having to 
> pay some attention to what is going on in the environment is to much to ask 
> ...maybe I'll just go into the mirrors for pedestrians buisness! That way 
> they can just look straight ahead, with ear buds in, monitoring Fit bit, 
> smoking a pipe, drinking a cup o' joe, while reading Ann Patchette and 
> still see what is going on behind them !) 
>
> Richard "spider sense" Rios 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Justin August]

The obvious solution here is for everyone to get Chris King hubs and coast at 
speed on MUPs. No one can miss you then. 

-j

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Garth]

 
  Yea Yea Leah  !  !  

 I like the jingle bells idea too. 

  Here are some practical tips  .  . . . 

Put yourself in the "other" person shoes, forget who you think you are and 
who you think they may be, forget about the circumstances, forget they were 
known or unknown to you prior to this crossing  just 2 or more people 
sharing the same time and space.  How would you like to be treated?, treat 
them that way without any consideration of yourself.  Do it anyways   .  . 
. .

Look at where you ARE as the destination, where-ever that may be at the 
time, not just "in your way" of getting somewhere else. We're always "on 
the way" and when we get there, oh . . . "I'm sooo busy . . I have 
somewhere else to be, something else to do".  Always some-where or 
some-thing else, but never where you ARE... You just kinda are . . may as 
be friends .



On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 1:16:29 PM UTC-5, LeahFoy wrote:
>
> Ah, the MUP etiquette. It's confounding, isn't it? I've tried ringing 
> bells, but what I mean as a pleasant alert ends up seeming like honking to 
> pedestrians. I took a leaf out of Grant's book and put jingle bells on the 
> kids' bikes. They were clearanced at $1 apiece, and they wrap securely 
> around the bars with a strong velcro closure. Thus, people hear us coming 
> as we jingle down the path. But for the "zombies" - folks with ear buds or 
> phones, I just call out in my cheeriest voice, "Good morning!" and that 
> works splendidly. Sometimes I yell compliments - "Love your backpack!" 
> "What a cute dog you have!" "Working hard! Looking good!" I know some folks 
> are irritated initially because they don't expect us, but it's hard to be 
> snarky with a rider who cheerfully calls out a morning greeting to you. "On 
> your left" was dicey, as people often move left, and kids don't understand 
> it. So, cheerfulness and compliments are the way to go, in my humble 
> opinion!
>
> Leah, who rides TBBITW (The Best Bike in the World) cheerfully through the 
> suburbs.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Richard Rios]

Maybe I'm just weird but I do glance back every so often as I walk along. Do 
the same on my bike. Keeps me from being surprised at least 80 percent of the 
time. Also most bikes are not absolutely silent usually there will be some kind 
of noise that alerts me to a bike comming along. Tire buzz, chain squeek, brake 
squeel, friends talking and enjoying the ride, dirt or leaves being ran over. 
The only problem I find with that is if some one is playing out racing 
fantasies and being a bit inconsiderate, then they will close to fast to react 
to and it is a bit startling.  But hey if having to pay some attention to what 
is going on in the environment is to much to ask ...maybe I'll just go into the 
mirrors for pedestrians buisness! That way they can just look straight ahead, 
with ear buds in, monitoring Fit bit, smoking a pipe, drinking a cup o' joe, 
while reading Ann Patchette and still see what is going on behind them !) 

Richard "spider sense" Rios 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[islaysteve]

Leah, as usual, you are a model of positivity for us all.  Happy New Year to 
you and your family, Steve

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/29/2016 02:00 PM, Ron Mc wrote:

even the most conscious people can't see behind them.
One thing I like about the Crane Karen bell is you play it.  It can 
flam, it can ping, it can be a gentile ring, it can be loud.

Pedestrians appreciate a polite warning that you're about to pass them.
Just like the deer, from your approach ring they know your distance 
and speed.


Ron's right about all that.  As for "playing" bells -- the same is true 
of "traditional" or "ring-ring" bike bells.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

even the most conscious people can't see behind them.  
One thing I like about the Crane Karen bell is you play it.  It can flam, 
it can ping, it can be a gentile ring, it can be loud.  
Pedestrians appreciate a polite warning that you're about to pass them.  
Just like the deer, from your approach ring they know your distance and 
speed.  

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 12:27:03 PM UTC-6, Richard Rios wrote:
>
> As to original question posed. I say yes it is absolutely ok, go for it 
> and why not. My experience is that people you can pass in this manner are 
> generally the more considerate and aware types. They don't seem startled or 
> to mind. I know I dont, just slow down a bit and go on about your buisness. 
> I find the issue to be with the groups of walkers or cyclist taking up the 
> whole path talking loudly and in general showing no concern for others. But 
> these folks tend to be a no win...if you just try to go around quietly they 
> look at you all indignantly and don't seem to want to share the space or if 
> you use a bell they seem startled and scatter in all directions causing 
> even more of a ruckus and still look at ya all indignantly. People with 
> kids and dogs I will generally try and give some warning because kids being 
> kids will dart and I wouldn't want them or fido to get hurt. Point being 
> everyone should keep a general awareness of others about them on multi use 
> paths and be considerate / use common sense. Then there really is no 
> problem and need to signal every time you go around. I dont honk before I 
> pass in my car. The expectation is that as drivers we keep a general 
> awareness of what is happening around us for everyone's safety. Think the 
> same should be true of multi use paths as well. I also like my brass bells 
> because they look, and sound great. I will ping mine at times just for 
> shits and giggles because the sound makes me feel happy. What I actually 
> find them most useful for is when going around blind corners or when or 
> where sight is somehow limited. Then I will just ping away to let others 
> know I am around. Just my .02 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Richard Rios]

As to original question posed. I say yes it is absolutely ok, go for it and why 
not. My experience is that people you can pass in this manner are generally the 
more considerate and aware types. They don't seem startled or to mind. I know I 
dont, just slow down a bit and go on about your buisness. I find the issue to 
be with the groups of walkers or cyclist taking up the whole path talking 
loudly and in general showing no concern for others. But these folks tend to be 
a no win...if you just try to go around quietly they look at you all 
indignantly and don't seem to want to share the space or if you use a bell they 
seem startled and scatter in all directions causing even more of a ruckus and 
still look at ya all indignantly. People with kids and dogs I will generally 
try and give some warning because kids being kids will dart and I wouldn't want 
them or fido to get hurt. Point being everyone should keep a general awareness 
of others about them on multi use paths and be considerate / use common sense. 
Then there really is no problem and need to signal every time you go around. I 
dont honk before I pass in my car. The expectation is that as drivers we keep a 
general awareness of what is happening around us for everyone's safety. Think 
the same should be true of multi use paths as well. I also like my brass bells 
because they look, and sound great. I will ping mine at times just for shits 
and giggles because the sound makes me feel happy. What I actually find them 
most useful for is when going around blind corners or when or where sight is 
somehow limited. Then I will just ping away to let others know I am around. 
Just my .02 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[ted]

It seems not

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[LeahFoy]

Ah, the MUP etiquette. It's confounding, isn't it? I've tried ringing bells, 
but what I mean as a pleasant alert ends up seeming like honking to 
pedestrians. I took a leaf out of Grant's book and put jingle bells on the 
kids' bikes. They were clearanced at $1 apiece, and they wrap securely around 
the bars with a strong velcro closure. Thus, people hear us coming as we jingle 
down the path. But for the "zombies" - folks with ear buds or phones, I just 
call out in my cheeriest voice, "Good morning!" and that works splendidly. 
Sometimes I yell compliments - "Love your backpack!" "What a cute dog you 
have!" "Working hard! Looking good!" I know some folks are irritated initially 
because they don't expect us, but it's hard to be snarky with a rider who 
cheerfully calls out a morning greeting to you. "On your left" was dicey, as 
people often move left, and kids don't understand it. So, cheerfulness and 
compliments are the way to go, in my humble opinion!

Leah, who rides TBBITW (The Best Bike in the World) cheerfully through the 
suburbs.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Patrick Moore]

Can we somehow remove this sort of drivel from the list?

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Garth  wrote:

>
> I speak from a place of having given all, "complying" to all the implied
> powers that be, and yet all was never enough, more was never enough.  Yes,
> call it hell, but in the midst of nowhere left to turn but your Self . . .
> funny things seem to happen, you ask true honest questions within yourself,
> and you receive true honest answers from within, not what someone else
> claims is true, but a truth not relative to anyone or anything, really your
> very Self.   So, who would the criminal be anyways , the "powers that be"
> ?  Garth, Steve, John/Jane Doe, the law, the lawyers, the cops, the perps,
> any of "they and them" ?   Nope . . . none are .
>
> "forgive them for they know not what they do"
>
> and that's all
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

I narc'd on a lady who was running her bull terrier loose on the trail to 
an officer and he took off after her 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Scott Henry]

OK, sorry.   I guess I didn't understand the first post.
Always do what they say, the first time, every time.




On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Ron Mc  wrote:

> Maybe it's the real estate - all our greenways are in the flood plains.
> And so are the police stations - our greenways connect all the police
> stations.  There are always officers on the trails, in addition to Trail
> Stewards.
> It's a good thing.
>
> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 9:03:15 AM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>>
>> Please if you are going to be disparaging the work of America's police
>> forces, do it someplace other than a bike list.
>> Scott
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Garth  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I speak from a place of having given all, "complying" to all the implied
>>> powers that be, and yet all was never enough, more was never enough.  Yes,
>>> call it hell, but in the midst of nowhere left to turn but your Self . . .
>>> funny things seem to happen, you ask true honest questions within yourself,
>>> and you receive true honest answers from within, not what someone else
>>> claims is true, but a truth not relative to anyone or anything, really your
>>> very Self.   So, who would the criminal be anyways , the "powers that be"
>>> ?  Garth, Steve, John/Jane Doe, the law, the lawyers, the cops, the perps,
>>> any of "they and them" ?   Nope . . . none are .
>>>
>>> "forgive them for they know not what they do"
>>>
>>> and that's all
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 8:44:13 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar
>>> wrote:




 You try running from a cop who wants to write you a ticket for running
 a
 stop sign or in some jurisdictions, failing to come to a foot-down stop
 at a stop sign.  I'm not threatening you, just pointing out that what
 you're suggesting could be a very dangerous course of action.  There
 are
 very few "kids on bikes" reading this list.



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>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

Maybe it's the real estate - all our greenways are in the flood plains. 
 And so are the police stations - our greenways connect all the police 
stations.  There are always officers on the trails, in addition to Trail 
Stewards.  
It's a good thing.  

On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 9:03:15 AM UTC-6, Skenry wrote:
>
> Please if you are going to be disparaging the work of America's police 
> forces, do it someplace other than a bike list.
> Scott
>
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Garth  
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I speak from a place of having given all, "complying" to all the implied 
>> powers that be, and yet all was never enough, more was never enough.  Yes, 
>> call it hell, but in the midst of nowhere left to turn but your Self . . .  
>> funny things seem to happen, you ask true honest questions within yourself, 
>> and you receive true honest answers from within, not what someone else 
>> claims is true, but a truth not relative to anyone or anything, really your 
>> very Self.   So, who would the criminal be anyways , the "powers that be" 
>> ?  Garth, Steve, John/Jane Doe, the law, the lawyers, the cops, the perps, 
>> any of "they and them" ?   Nope . . . none are . 
>>
>> "forgive them for they know not what they do"  
>>
>> and that's all 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 8:44:13 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>> You try running from a cop who wants to write you a ticket for running a 
>>> stop sign or in some jurisdictions, failing to come to a foot-down stop 
>>> at a stop sign.  I'm not threatening you, just pointing out that what 
>>> you're suggesting could be a very dangerous course of action.  There are 
>>> very few "kids on bikes" reading this list. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Scott Henry]

Please if you are going to be disparaging the work of America's police
forces, do it someplace other than a bike list.
Scott

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Garth  wrote:

>
> I speak from a place of having given all, "complying" to all the implied
> powers that be, and yet all was never enough, more was never enough.  Yes,
> call it hell, but in the midst of nowhere left to turn but your Self . . .
> funny things seem to happen, you ask true honest questions within yourself,
> and you receive true honest answers from within, not what someone else
> claims is true, but a truth not relative to anyone or anything, really your
> very Self.   So, who would the criminal be anyways , the "powers that be"
> ?  Garth, Steve, John/Jane Doe, the law, the lawyers, the cops, the perps,
> any of "they and them" ?   Nope . . . none are .
>
> "forgive them for they know not what they do"
>
> and that's all
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 8:44:13 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You try running from a cop who wants to write you a ticket for running a
>> stop sign or in some jurisdictions, failing to come to a foot-down stop
>> at a stop sign.  I'm not threatening you, just pointing out that what
>> you're suggesting could be a very dangerous course of action.  There are
>> very few "kids on bikes" reading this list.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Garth]

I speak from a place of having given all, "complying" to all the implied 
powers that be, and yet all was never enough, more was never enough.  Yes, 
call it hell, but in the midst of nowhere left to turn but your Self . . .  
funny things seem to happen, you ask true honest questions within yourself, 
and you receive true honest answers from within, not what someone else 
claims is true, but a truth not relative to anyone or anything, really your 
very Self.   So, who would the criminal be anyways , the "powers that be" 
?  Garth, Steve, John/Jane Doe, the law, the lawyers, the cops, the perps, 
any of "they and them" ?   Nope . . . none are . 

"forgive them for they know not what they do"  

and that's all 






On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 8:44:13 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
>  
>
> You try running from a cop who wants to write you a ticket for running a 
> stop sign or in some jurisdictions, failing to come to a foot-down stop 
> at a stop sign.  I'm not threatening you, just pointing out that what 
> you're suggesting could be a very dangerous course of action.  There are 
> very few "kids on bikes" reading this list. 
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Steve Palincsar]

On 12/29/2016 08:20 AM, Garth wrote:
  He was no cop, and our "grown up" cops had better things to do than 
police kids on bikes.


Always the threat huh Steve ?The dead squirrel images you post.. . 
.  blah blah blah . . . .   the ol' "comply or die" mantra.   Comply 
to who ?




You try running from a cop who wants to write you a ticket for running a 
stop sign or in some jurisdictions, failing to come to a foot-down stop 
at a stop sign.  I'm not threatening you, just pointing out that what 
you're suggesting could be a very dangerous course of action.  There are 
very few "kids on bikes" reading this list.




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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Philip Kim]

I use a MUP to work everyday. I always ring my bell to alert them once I'm 
within  20-15 feet or so. And if they don't acknowledge by moving to the 
side, then they probably have headphones in and didn't hear me, and I'll 
ring again once I'm within 7 feet and slow down. Then I'll usually say 
"How's going?" or "Thank you" as I'm within ear shot.

I've used the same MUP as a runner on the weekend and felt some sort of way 
when a bike sped past me without warning.

You don't really state how fast your ride, or how slow you slow down. Most 
bikers on the MUP ride around 15-20 mph, which is 3-4 times faster than a 
runner, and 5-10 times faster than a walker. Even if you slowed down to 10 
mph, it's still pretty fast compared to someone who is walking. 3-5 feet 
when someone is going by that fast without warning can be pretty unnerving.

Of course passing without warning is fine if there are no accidents, but it 
mostly benefits you as a rider and not the pedestrian. So that doesn't 
really acknowledge pedestrians having the right-of-way.

You're right, it can be incredibly frustrating when pedestrians don't hear 
you or yell at you when you're trying to bike to work or go about your 
business and trying to do the right thing, and I've too questioned "what's 
the point?". I think more bicycle to pedestrian interactions can make the 
MUP a safer and bicycle-friendly path. It's hard enough getting paths to 
allow bikes to be ridden on it as is.


On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 8:33:06 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Philip Kim]

I use a MUP to work everyday. I always ring my bell to alert them once I'm 
within  20-15 feet or so. And if they don't acknowledge by moving to the 
side, then they probably have headphones in and didn't hear me, and I'll 
ring again once I'm within 7 feet and slow down.

I've used the same MUP as a runner on the weekend and felt some sort of way 
when a bike sped past me without warning, even at three feet. 

Most bikers here ride around 15-20 mph, which is 3-4 times faster than a 
runner, and 5-10 times faster than a walker. Even if you slowed down to 10 
mph, it's still pretty fast compared to someone who is walking.

Of course passing without warning is fine if there are no accidents, but it 
mostly benefits you as a rider and not the pedestrian. So that kind of 
thinking doesn't really acknowledge that pedestrians having the 
right-of-way.

It's courtesy that doesn't really cost you anything (maybe $8-15 for a bell 
if you don't have one).

I don't think because a handful of people can't hear your bell, doesn't 
mean you should stop trying to alert when passing all together.


On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 8:33:06 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Garth]

  He was no cop, and our "grown up" cops had better things to do than 
police kids on bikes.  

Always the threat huh Steve ?The dead squirrel images you post.. . .  
blah blah blah . . . .   the ol' "comply or die" mantra.   Comply to who ? 




On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 7:57:24 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> Don't try that with a grown up cop.
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Steve Palincsar]

Don't try that with a grown up cop.


On 12/29/2016 07:53 AM, Garth wrote:

  Ahahahah .. .  "The Bike Police !"

Funny story about how great my mom is . .. . back in the 70's in 
Minnesota the city where I lived created a "bike patrol" just to write 
tickets to bicyclists.  One summers day I must have gone through a 
stop sign on a vacant city street or something , but all I recall is 
being chased by these guy on a bike yelling "stop" !   Now I was maybe 
10-12 years old or so, and I had been chased and robbed before on my 
paper route so I stopped for no one at that point and just kept riding 
home. We are talking about all of this within a mile of my home. The 
guy rings our doorbell, making some demand and saying he wanted to 
write me a ticket or something, but my mom just basically gave him an 
earful of unpleasantness,  to stop harassing kids, that he should be 
ashamed of himself policing for kids on the street. All he could do 
was go away, never to be heard of again.  The Best Mom !




  On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 10:30:44 PM UTC-5, GAJett wrote:


Bells are required on bicycles on Park District trails. (I've
known several people who have gotten tickets for not having bells!)

-


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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Garth]

  Ahahahah .. .  "The Bike Police !"   

Funny story about how great my mom is . .. . back in the 70's in Minnesota 
the city where I lived created a "bike patrol" just to write tickets to 
bicyclists.  One summers day I must have gone through a stop sign on a 
vacant city street or something , but all I recall is being chased by these 
guy on a bike yelling "stop" !   Now I was maybe 10-12 years old or so, and 
I had been chased and robbed before on my paper route so I stopped for no 
one at that point and just kept riding home. We are talking about all of 
this within a mile of my home. The guy rings our doorbell, making some 
demand and saying he wanted to write me a ticket or something, but my mom 
just basically gave him an earful of unpleasantness,  to stop harassing 
kids, that he should be ashamed of himself policing for kids on the street. 
All he could do was go away, never to be heard of again.  The Best Mom !  

  

  On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 10:30:44 PM UTC-5, GAJett wrote:
>
>
> Bells are required on bicycles on Park District trails.  (I've known 
> several people who have gotten tickets for not having bells!)
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[lum gim fong]

What kinda ticket?
Not one that gets points on your driving record?

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[GAJett]

I am mostly familiar with the MUPs of the East Bay Regional Park District 
in the SF Bay Area.  I almost always use my bell when approaching from the 
rear, and from the front if other users don't seem to be paying attention.  
I ring several times as I approach (e.g., ding-ding ding, ding-ding-ding, 
ding-ding-ding) before passing as far away as possible.  And I always say 
thank-you to those who move over, often getting a thanks in return.  If 
anyone is nasty, they still get the thank-you

Several rules for EBRPD trails that are relevant to this thread include:

*All Trail Users:* 

For everyone's safety, *keep to the right* (so no real reason to call out 
"on your left").

For your safety, headphones are not advised (but not prohibited -- this has 
consequences). 


*Bicycles: *

Bicycles shall not be ridden at an unsafe speed, or greater than the posted 
speed limit. (The speed limit is usually 15 mph. However even a walking 
pace could be considered an "unsafe speed" and a cyclist held responsible 
for an accident even if proceeding with the utmost caution.  As a corollary 
these trails are NOT for high speed training.  If you want to go faster 
then at least slow down when passing others, or find another venue.)

Bells are required on bicycles on Park District trails.  (I've known 
several people who have gotten tickets for not having bells!)

- Bicycles always yield to pedestrians. Before passing, SLOW DOWN, ring 
bell and establish verbal contact.  (Yes, slow down.  MUPs are for all 
users.  No one should use them in any way that endangers others.  But how 
do you establish verbal contact with the idiot on, for example, an 
i(diot)Phone with the volume turned up?


*Pedestrians: *

- Keep to the right when approached by others. (Again, stay to the right 
unless passing.)
- Look behind and to both sides before changing course.  (As mentioned 
elsewhere, runners are particularly bad about this.  I had one at the back 
of a large group literally turn on their toe to reverse direction.  I had 
slowed to a walking pace while waiting a chance to pass the group, so was 
able to stop.

Cheers.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-8, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[John]

I see all the problems everyone has listed every time I'm on a MUP, and the 
only solution I've found to to slow way down and assume the person/people 
are going to move directly in front of me no matter how many times I've 
rung my bell and called out to them. People walking & talking are the worst 
for me, as they have successfully tuned out everything but the sounds of 
their own voices. I always prepare to pedal off into the weeds to avoid a 
collision. It feels safer to avoid MUP's altogether and ride with cars on 
the road.

It all reminds me of growing up in a place loved by tourists who didn't 
care if their Winnebago was going to drive right over the kid on the 
10-speed hugging the very edge of the asphalt on the road. I don't how many 
times I was run off the road. My solution was to ride in bad weather, or at 
night when the tourists were off the road & headlights forewarned of any 
other traffic.

John (I want more cowbell!!!) Phillips

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[George Schick]

Many people using MUP's nowadays are just about as bad distracted drivers. 
 Here's a link from a recumbent rider's blog that pretty much sums it up:

http://www.bentrideronline.com/?p=4132


On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 7:33:06 PM UTC-6, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[John A. Bennett]

On a related note regarding multi-use paths:

When riding at night, *please don't employ your flashing strobe light *to 
make us aware of your presence. Those things blind the rest of us when 
we're trying to pass you going in the opposite direction, and we really 
can't tell exactly *where *you are. 

Further, they're disconcerting when you are overtaking us. 

*Use the solid beam. On low. And point it down.*

This is especially true if *A) *You live in Portland, Oregon. *B) *You ride 
south on the Eastbank Esplanade. *C) *Between the hours of 5:30PM and 
6:30PM.

Happy 2017,

John 



On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-8, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Patrick Moore]

Good advice; and I'll add: recall with confidence that you have as much
right to the path as anyone else.

On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Christopher Murray <
chrispmurra...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think you got it right with "you just can't win" bc no matter what you
> decide you will never please 100% of the people. Someone is ALWAYS going to
> be upset regardless of what you do (ring, on your left, beep beep, etc.).
> Be confident that you are doing the best, most polite, respectful thing and
> just let the haters hate. It is them, not you.
>
> Cheers!
> Chris
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Patrick Moore]

I find women of a certain age and class to be the most self-righteously
unpleasant among path users; and this one turned without looking and then
blamed you?

On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 7:07 PM, Christopher Cote <
christopherjamesc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> She yelled "nice bell" as if to mean that I should have rung a bell. I
> guess she was right. I'm going to try and be better about ringing at
> everyone now.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Kevin Lindsey]

I can tell that this is going to be a long-lived discussion.
My main route takes me on two relatively popular bike paths, both of which 
require that the cyclist make a noise before passing.  While the bell is a 
pleasant option, I found that it often doesn't penetrate through to those 
who are plugged in or otherwise distracted.  Further, it's not clear to me 
that all foreign cultures recognize a bike bell for what it is and means, 
and we have lots and lots of foreigners on our bike paths here in the 
Washington, D.C. area.  Also, as one of those who can't easily tell his 
left from his right, I find "on your left!" to be a chore, and I know what 
would happen if I were to try and pass someone who also is latitudinally 
challenged or who doesn't speak English.  Instead, I yell "passing!" when 
I'm reasonably certain that I'm close enough to be heard, then follow up 
with a "good morning" or "merry Christmas" when going by.  At a minimum, 
even those who don't speak English will know that someone is heading their 
way, and a short, punching "passing!" seems to penetrate better than a 
long, drawn-out "on your left!"  
This having been said, there are some pedestrians who are so lost in their 
thoughts or conversations that nothing short of gunfire will wake them out 
of their reveries.  Despite loud warnings before passing, I've been 
inadvertently spat on by oxygen-deprived runners who simply don't register 
my presence, and once had someone clear his nostrils on me as I passed.  
All profusely apologized, but the damage was done.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 8:33:06 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Steve Palincsar]

Another vote for bells here.  Where I live, riding from home (i.e., 
without driving to a remote ride start) is impossible without riding on 
one of the most popular MUPs in the country (so much for avoiding the 
problem by not riding there) and especially near the District of 
Columbia many of the walkers are foreign tourists who don't understand 
English.  A bell is a universal symbol, understood everywhere.  But 
Tim's right about many people not noticing, no matter what the warning: 
runners lost in their own heads, people listening to music - they're 
just not paying attention.



On 12/28/2016 07:26 AM, Ron Mc wrote:

no, I don't.
Bell.  I always ring mine twice.  As soon as I think be heard, and 
again just before I pass.  I usually get thanked for it by the 
pedestrian, and people who need to adjust their width and do so will 
get thanked by me.
Dogs on leash, as much warning as possible.  Out of control masters, I 
may ring 6 or 7 times.
For the rest, especially earbudworld and always with children, 
anticipate panic stop.


On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 7:33:06 PM UTC-6, Tim wrote:

Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a
walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by
without warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something
else, or not ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I
was riding my Roadeo today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't
have a bell yet. A bell is my much preferred method of warning
that I'm there. But I find that many people are startled by a bell
just as much as "on your left." Or they have earbuds in and don't
here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is that 50% of
the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride with
the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER
WHAT. I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's
a family, and try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think
about it, it really seems to me that a warning of any type only
works with about half of the people out there. On the other hand,
I passed a woman one day without warning her, she was on the far
right and I was on the far left, at least 5 feet away, and she was
pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like it. So
sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?




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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Jon Dukeman,central Colorado]

I find that using my bell that I bought from Rivendell gets a better 
response than :"on your left" because the bell is more audible at a farther 
distance giving the hiker/walker more warning.
The bell either gets a wave, a smile, or a smile and a thank you!
Jon


>>

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Les Lammers]

I've had that happen on trails in Big Cypress and am considering one of 
these: http://www.mtbbell.com/ 

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 9:30:53 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> The other day I had to negotiate MUP passage with an 8 point buck and his 
> does. We just watched each other for what felt like several minutes. Then 
> they went into the woods.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 6:33:06 PM UTC-7, Tim wrote:
>>
>> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
>> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
>> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
>> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
>> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
>> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
>> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
>> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
>> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
>> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
>> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
>> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
>> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
>> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
>> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
>> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
>> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Rusty Click]

I believe that you should always signal when passing on multi use trails. 
 It is often 'required' by the trail rules, and it is certainly common 
courtesy whether it is written on a sign or not.
Signaling could be verbal, or a bell.  Just because you are the only two 
people on the trail, and the pedestrian is far right (with or without pet), 
and you plan on cruising by on the far left, doesn't mean it is OK to not 
signal.  The pedestrian could be on a bluetooth headset getting 
instructions from their spouse, or paying attention to the dog who is 
paying attention to the squirrel, or engrossed in the social media wonders 
of their phone.  You just don't know, so call out, or ring the bell, or 
both.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 8:33:06 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Garth]

I was going to offer yet another "solution" but man oh man, it is quite 
apparent to me that the only real "solution" is to never be a problem in 
the first place, hence no solutions either as they are 2 sides of a same 
coin.  For all the solving ever solved, problems are as many as ever 
.not one thing hss changed.

So Tim, just ride and enjoy the day :)


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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

fair warning, There is a class of runners out there who will intentionally 
widen themselves when a bike is trying to pass.  I don't know if it's 
something kicked around in running bulletin boards, but it is an 
intentional act, pressing right of way, and seemingly wanting to force the 
bicycle to stop or leave the path.  

On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 6:44:08 AM UTC-6, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Bike bells are essential for deer.  They know where you are, they know 
> your speed, and usually stop in their tracks.  My hilly neighborhood has a 
> huge deer herd.  I've also been descending 40 mph from the 
> Guadalupe/Pedernales divide and had a charging buck otherwise intersecting 
> me stop dead in its tracks at the sound of my bell.  
>
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 8:30:53 PM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> The other day I had to negotiate MUP passage with an 8 point buck and his 
>> does. We just watched each other for what felt like several minutes. Then 
>> they went into the woods.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

Bike bells are essential for deer.  They know where you are, they know your 
speed, and usually stop in their tracks.  My hilly neighborhood has a huge 
deer herd.  I've also been descending 40 mph from the Guadalupe/Pedernales 
divide and had a charging buck otherwise intersecting me stop dead in its 
tracks at the sound of my bell.  

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 8:30:53 PM UTC-6, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> The other day I had to negotiate MUP passage with an 8 point buck and his 
> does. We just watched each other for what felt like several minutes. Then 
> they went into the woods.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ron Mc]

no, I don't.  
Bell.  I always ring mine twice.  As soon as I think be heard, and again 
just before I pass.  I usually get thanked for it by the pedestrian, and 
people who need to adjust their width and do so will get thanked by me.  
Dogs on leash, as much warning as possible.  Out of control masters, I may 
ring 6 or 7 times.  
For the rest, especially earbudworld and always with children, anticipate 
panic stop.  

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 7:33:06 PM UTC-6, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Thanks for that perspective, Ian. Now that I think about it, I'm not sure that 
I've been on an MUP as anything but a cyclist. Back in the day when I was a 
runner (thus the fake knees today) I ran on the sidewalk, and today I don't 
really go for walks, so I've really only cycled on the paths, and haven't 
experienced walking with a bike coming by. Incidentally, there are 2 bells on 
the Riv order that should be arriving today, one for the Roadeo and one for the 
GFs Sam. 

One other thing: When I was working in Louisville, there is a wonderful 
pedestrian/bike bridge (old converted RR) across the Ohio River. On nice days 
it is really, really busy. There were a couple of cyclists on one of those 
days, and the woman was incessantly ringing her bell. To me, that was the same 
as hollering "Coming through, clear a path for me!" I kind of thought that was 
rude, as if she felt by ringing the bell constantly it gave her the right of 
way. I rode across the bridge all of the time but on days like that, you just 
had to be very patient and really, really slow. There's way too much going on. 
But on the other hand, she was going slow, not ringing the bell and blowing by 
people, so I should give her a break too. 


Peace,
Tim "who probably shouldn't cast stones" Kirch

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Ian A]

I would say always ring the bell.  I've been relegated to walking the last 
few weeks following hernia surgery and I've had a number of cyclists pass 
me without warning.  I assume they feel that there's enough room that 
there's no chance of a collision and that I'm walking in a predictable 
fashion, but it scares the beejeesus out of me when I think I'm alone and 
suddenly there is someone passing me at speed.  I don't admonish, having 
been guilty of it myself many times, but I do feel annoyance.  I have a 
similar reaction when a car passes me too close when I'm riding.

Ian A/Canada (burning off some Karma).



On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 6:33:06 PM UTC-7, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Christopher Murray]

I think you got it right with "you just can't win" bc no matter what you decide 
you will never please 100% of the people. Someone is ALWAYS going to be upset 
regardless of what you do (ring, on your left, beep beep, etc.). Be confident 
that you are doing the best, most polite, respectful thing and just let the 
haters hate. It is them, not you. 

Cheers!
Chris 

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

Most seasoned MUP users are OK with passing without warning, but they 
appreciate it when I do warn them, and especially if the relatively 
velocity is fairly low (10mph?). I try to do so gently, with rings of the 
"polite" Japanese brass bells at 40 feet, then 20 feet, and finally just 
when I am passing. The intent is to offer them a sense of progression, so 
they are not startled. Sometimes I get a "thanks!" in reciprocation. Of 
course, one can't help those who have earbuds on, but I've found that those 
aren't the ones with the nasty attitudes.

The ones with unfriendly attitudes are usually the ones who are new, and 
are frightened and maybe startled by bicycles passing by (99.99% safely, 
but they don't care). So I try to be as obvious as I can when I see peds 
who don't keep to a particular "lane". I'll ring my bell (most of my 
bicycles have one), change my gears or do something fairly noisy; strangely 
enough, I don't typically yell whatever it is we're supposed to yell.

For the record, I don't particularly see a *need* to alert others when 
passing on a MUP (do we do that in cars?), but it is nice to do, and who 
doesn't appreciate an inexpensive brass bell jewelry with some patina?

Interestingly enough, in these winter months, for my commuting hours, my 
headlight usually supersedes the need for bell ringing.

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[eflayer]

Use your mouth in a different way. Down bike paths, when I see walkers out 
front, I say "beep" "beep" in a rather pleasant and playful and loud enough 
way that works nearly every time the first time. If you say it early 
enough, you can watch them move whichever direction they choose before you 
ever get there. Their response is sort of like making eye contact with 
drivers at a 4 way stop sign. Folks with ear buds on multi use trails 
deserve little mercy...bikers or walker or runners. Beeping is more 
interpersonal than ON YOUR LEFT :). 

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 5:33:06 PM UTC-8, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[ted]

I try and ring my bell after I've moved over hoping that the audio queue 
indicates which side I am on.
I tend to think the need for warning diminishes as the relative speed 
decreases and separation increases. But some people may not be happy no 
mater what you do.
More generally these sort of issues are part of why I generally prefer to 
stay off MUPs, and really try to stay off MUPs that are heavily used.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 6:07:31 PM UTC-8, Christopher Cote wrote:
>
> I usually do the "on your left" thing only if they're blocking the whole 
> path. I recently bought one of the bells Rivendell sells. It's so pleasant 
> and kind, but doesn't move people out of the way like a good yell. The 
> other day I passed a jogger, and just as I got alongside her, she wheeled 
> around to head the other way. We didn't collide, and there wasn't really 
> any chance of it, but I really startled her. She yelled "nice bell" as if 
> to mean that I should have rung a bell. I guess she was right. I'm going to 
> try and be better about ringing at everyone now.
>
> On another note, I bought the Riv bell specifically because they said it 
> was prone to ringing itself on bumpy trails. I want that for when I'm on 
> 2-way singletrack. The bell I got doesn't ring itself, ever, though. I even 
> bought the extra heavy clapper, which turned out to be identical to the 
> stock one. Major bummer.
>
> Chris
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 8:33:06 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>>
>> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
>> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
>> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
>> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
>> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
>> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
>> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
>> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
>> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
>> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
>> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
>> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
>> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
>> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
>> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
>> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
>> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Deacon Patrick]

The other day I had to negotiate MUP passage with an 8 point buck and his 
does. We just watched each other for what felt like several minutes. Then 
they went into the woods.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 6:33:06 PM UTC-7, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

[Christopher Cote]

I usually do the "on your left" thing only if they're blocking the whole 
path. I recently bought one of the bells Rivendell sells. It's so pleasant 
and kind, but doesn't move people out of the way like a good yell. The 
other day I passed a jogger, and just as I got alongside her, she wheeled 
around to head the other way. We didn't collide, and there wasn't really 
any chance of it, but I really startled her. She yelled "nice bell" as if 
to mean that I should have rung a bell. I guess she was right. I'm going to 
try and be better about ringing at everyone now.

On another note, I bought the Riv bell specifically because they said it 
was prone to ringing itself on bumpy trails. I want that for when I'm on 
2-way singletrack. The bell I got doesn't ring itself, ever, though. I even 
bought the extra heavy clapper, which turned out to be identical to the 
stock one. Major bummer.

Chris


On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 8:33:06 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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[RBW] Re: Multi Use Path Etiquette

['Mojo' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I call out "I'm passing on your left." Then nearly immediately ring my bell 
as I approach, with my left hand at the ready on the front/effective brake 
lever. That mostly works.

On Tuesday, December 27, 2016 at 6:33:06 PM UTC-7, Tim wrote:
>
> Do you think it's ok, when riding on the path, if you can pass a 
> walker/runner/family, safely with 3 feet to spare, to go by without 
> warning? That means not saying "on your left" or something else, or not 
> ringing your bell if you have one. I ask because I was riding my Roadeo 
> today (50 degrees here in KC!) and it doesn't have a bell yet. A bell is my 
> much preferred method of warning that I'm there. But I find that many 
> people are startled by a bell just as much as "on your left." Or they have 
> earbuds in and don't here you. Also, my experience with "on your left" is 
> that 50% of the people who hear that, move to their left. I ALWAYS ride 
> with the knowledge that pedestrians have the right of way, NO MATTER WHAT. 
> I give a wide berth to others, really slow down when there's a family, and 
> try to smile and be friendly. But the more I think about it, it really 
> seems to me that a warning of any type only works with about half of the 
> people out there. On the other hand, I passed a woman one day without 
> warning her, she was on the far right and I was on the far left, at least 5 
> feet away, and she was pretty nasty about letting me know she didn't like 
> it. So sometimes it seems like you just can't win. What do you all think?

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