[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[John Johnson]

The Clem L is an excellent bike for all around riding. I ride it on trails, 
on roads, and light "mountain biking". The Susie (which I've never tried), 
looks like a more offroad mountain bike, and if you're doing more of that, 
maybe the Susie is your thing. But if you're looking for an all rounder, 
get the Clem and use the leftover 800 bucks or so to make a killer build. 

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 4:29:12 PM UTC+1 Kiley Demond wrote:

> I am so late to this party What pray tell is a "Gallop"? I clicked on 
> the link and am very curious. Yes, it is partly because it is a spectacular 
> shade of orange; I am every bit a girl (Like Leah and Raspberry Sparkle) 
> and when it comes to orange... And it is a mixte. 
>
> Pointing me to links that discuss this new beast (with the best name in a 
> long time), I would be grateful. 
>
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:36:15 PM UTC-7 Johnny Alien wrote:
>
>> @Doug H, I posted the Protogallop in this thread
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/j5vUNKjgsUE/m/rD97QHpSCQAJ
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:48:39 PM UTC-5 Ed Carolipio wrote:
>>
>>> I have a 45cm Clem L (2017 with 26 x 2.1 tires, SunRingle RhynoLite 
>>> rims) and a Small Gus (2020 with 27.5 x 2.4, Cliffhanger rims) so caveat my 
>>> experiences as a shorter (78cm PBH) and a "stouter" (220 lbs) rider than 
>>> you. Also, I think I'm supposed to be on a 52cm Clem so there's a slight 
>>> apples-to-oranges effect in the comparison.
>>>
>>> I set up the Gus as a trail bike, with a large handlebar bag and a large 
>>> saddle bag supported by a Mark's rack, both which center the load 
>>> left/right and keeps the weight between the axles. I run the 
>>> super-wide-swept back Tosco Bullmoose-style bars. Set up this way I find it 
>>> capable and comfortable on our rocky, loose-over-hardpack trails in SoCal 
>>> as long as the trail is not overly technical. I have the Clem set up as a 
>>> flat bar urban commuter (I'm using a Jones loop) with fenders, a front 
>>> basket, and large Nitto rear rack. The Clem L handles "like a Riv," takes 
>>> to loads well, and always feels solid.
>>>
>>> I tried the Gus as a pavement commuter and ... nope. I didn't like how 
>>> it steered with a load in a front basket, and too soft a front tire leads 
>>> self steering on pavement. I like to run a single heavy pannier when 
>>> commuting, and the Gus really didn't like that offset load. (The Clem isn't 
>>> bothered by the same load.) The Gus is so much bigger in every dimension 
>>> than the Clem L so, as others have pointed out, it's harder to live with in 
>>> the city. I haven't tried the Clem L on dirt but I suspect it would perform 
>>> competently on groomed dirt paths and maybe some single track when set up 
>>> with a swept back Bosco, bag-and-racks, no fenders, and wider tires.
>>>
>>> That said, I've tried a few setups on the Clem L and have always 
>>> preferred the way the Gus rides over it (which granted may be due to the 
>>> sizing difference.) Forced between the two, I'd keep the Gus and live with 
>>> its shortcomings as a city bike and pavement commuter - I just like the 
>>> "rigid steel trail bike" ride which the Gus provides.
>>>
>>> --Ed C.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:08:51 PM UTC-8 Kiley Demond wrote:
>>>
 This has probably been hashed over numerous times so at the risk of 
 making some of you go "arg!"...

 What are the differences of note between Clem L. and Susie W.? 

- Handling (stability, nimbleness)
- Wieldy-ness (overall size, weight, etc.)
- Suitability for electrifying at a future date
- Any other thoughts, whether experiential or theoretical

 The person asking is 5'10" 140lbs with a pbh of 91. I had a 60cm 
 Cheviot which I loved but sold several years ago when financial issues 
 overrode having such a fancy ride. I would prefer to buy a frame only and 
 do the build myself. I was gutted when I saw that an orange Susie W. frame 
 was listed (and sold); I wasn't paying sufficient attention. I "won" the 
 right-to-purchase lottery for a Clem but couldn't do it because they were 
 sold as complete and I hadn't done my due diligence on Susie Ws.

 Thank you for your collective insights and wisdom!

>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Jon Dukeman]

Eric
Where in Ohio are you?

On Sat, Nov 20, 2021, 3:47 AM Eric Daume  wrote:

> Leah, you picked a lovely time of the year to move to Michigan! Bundle up!
>
> Eric
> in Ohio, but who ends up in MI all to frequently
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 6:34 PM Leah Peterson 
> wrote:
>
>> I know…big missed opportunity on my part - I absolutely should have
>> weighed those bikes but I was like a kid at Christmas and got caught up in
>> the shiny new bike excitement. Totally forgot about weighing the thing.
>>
>> Someone mentioned (was it this thread?) about knowing how a bike feels
>> weight-wise, and that’s true. I can tell the difference between adding and
>> empty Saddlesack or not. I can probably tell the new seat post I put on my
>> Platy is heavier if I go lift that bike right now.
>>
>> I’m moving to Michigan in 3 weeks. Here’s hoping I make some Rivendell
>> friends in my new state who will keep me accountable for this stuff! 藍
>>
>> Sorry!
>> L
>>
>> On Nov 19, 2021, at 9:34 AM, aeroperf  wrote:
>>
>> While we’re going "arg!"...
>> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be
>> answered just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>>
>> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her
>> build, but I guess that’s OBE.
>> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their
>> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>>
>> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be
>> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
>> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or
>> hanging them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>>
>> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
>> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
>> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c
>> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550
>> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
>> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
>> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>>
>> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding
>> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>>
>> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank
>> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner
>> tubing, lighter crank.
>>
>> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time
>> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>>
>> --
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>>
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>> 
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>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Eric Daume]

Leah, you picked a lovely time of the year to move to Michigan! Bundle up!

Eric
in Ohio, but who ends up in MI all to frequently

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 6:34 PM Leah Peterson 
wrote:

> I know…big missed opportunity on my part - I absolutely should have
> weighed those bikes but I was like a kid at Christmas and got caught up in
> the shiny new bike excitement. Totally forgot about weighing the thing.
>
> Someone mentioned (was it this thread?) about knowing how a bike feels
> weight-wise, and that’s true. I can tell the difference between adding and
> empty Saddlesack or not. I can probably tell the new seat post I put on my
> Platy is heavier if I go lift that bike right now.
>
> I’m moving to Michigan in 3 weeks. Here’s hoping I make some Rivendell
> friends in my new state who will keep me accountable for this stuff! 藍
>
> Sorry!
> L
>
> On Nov 19, 2021, at 9:34 AM, aeroperf  wrote:
>
> While we’re going "arg!"...
> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered
> just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>
> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build,
> but I guess that’s OBE.
> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their
> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>
> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be
> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging
> them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>
> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c
> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550
> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>
> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding
> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>
> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank
> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner
> tubing, lighter crank.
>
> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time
> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>
> --
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> .
>
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> .
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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[brendonoid]

If I can lift a bike over a fallen tree then it is light enough. I remember 
when I had full front a rear pannier racks and was carrying way more 
camping stuff than I needed including 2kgs of coffee making paraphenalia. I 
went to pull my bike over a fallen tree and almost couldn't lift it. I got 
home and that Appaloosa setup was around 17.5kgs unloaded. That was one of 
the few times I've ever worried about weight. Now I don the lift test 
before I go anywhere and throw out stuff I don't need.

My ten years of experience riding Rivs tells me that Grant makes his frames 
a bit overbuilt and his forks a bit underbuilt. Always wanted to try a 
surly fork on my Sam or something just to see how much difference it would 
make. Boy I went on a tangent what is this thread about?

As far as deciding between suzie vs clem, and assuming budget isn't an 
issue. Get the one you can actually get your hands on! If you want to 
electrify in the future make sure you get a bottom bracket mounted kit I 
would never want a front hub motor on a Riv.

On Saturday, 20 November 2021 at 08:26:34 UTC+8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> That ain't bad at all, Gill. I would have guessed 5 pounds more for sure. 
> Clems are light! 
>
> Joe Bernard
>
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 4:03:54 PM UTC-8 Gill wrote:
>
>> 2020 Clem stock build, brooks B17, thunder burt tires, light tubes, small 
>> saddle bag - 31lbs. 
>> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 12:34:47 PM UTC-5 aeroperf wrote:
>>
>>> While we’re going "arg!"...
>>> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be 
>>> answered just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>>>
>>> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her 
>>> build, but I guess that’s OBE.
>>> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
>>> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>>>
>>> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to 
>>> be a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
>>> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or 
>>> hanging them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>>>
>>> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
>>> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
>>> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
>>> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
>>> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
>>> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a 
>>> bell.
>>> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>>>
>>> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
>>> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>>>
>>> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
>>> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
>>> tubing, lighter crank.
>>>
>>> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next 
>>> time at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Joe Bernard]

That ain't bad at all, Gill. I would have guessed 5 pounds more for sure. 
Clems are light! 

Joe Bernard

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 4:03:54 PM UTC-8 Gill wrote:

> 2020 Clem stock build, brooks B17, thunder burt tires, light tubes, small 
> saddle bag - 31lbs. 
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 12:34:47 PM UTC-5 aeroperf wrote:
>
>> While we’re going "arg!"...
>> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be 
>> answered just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>>
>> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her 
>> build, but I guess that’s OBE.
>> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
>> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>>
>> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be 
>> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
>> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or 
>> hanging them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>>
>> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
>> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
>> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
>> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
>> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
>> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
>> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>>
>> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
>> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>>
>> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
>> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
>> tubing, lighter crank.
>>
>> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time 
>> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Gill]

2020 Clem stock build, brooks B17, thunder burt tires, light tubes, small 
saddle bag - 31lbs. 
On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 12:34:47 PM UTC-5 aeroperf wrote:

> While we’re going "arg!"...
> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered 
> just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>
> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build, 
> but I guess that’s OBE.
> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>
> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be 
> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging 
> them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>
> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>
> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>
> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
> tubing, lighter crank.
>
> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time 
> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Leah Peterson]

I know…big missed opportunity on my part - I absolutely should have weighed 
those bikes but I was like a kid at Christmas and got caught up in the shiny 
new bike excitement. Totally forgot about weighing the thing. 

Someone mentioned (was it this thread?) about knowing how a bike feels 
weight-wise, and that’s true. I can tell the difference between adding and 
empty Saddlesack or not. I can probably tell the new seat post I put on my 
Platy is heavier if I go lift that bike right now.

I’m moving to Michigan in 3 weeks. Here’s hoping I make some Rivendell friends 
in my new state who will keep me accountable for this stuff! 藍

Sorry!
L

> On Nov 19, 2021, at 9:34 AM, aeroperf  wrote:
> 
> While we’re going "arg!"...
> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered 
> just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
> 
> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build, 
> but I guess that’s OBE.
> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
> 
> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be a 
> conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging 
> them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
> 
> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c wheels, 
> Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 levers, 
> Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
> 29 pounds, 3 oz
> 
> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding weight 
> comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
> 
> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank and 
> FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner tubing, 
> lighter crank.
> 
> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time at 
> your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
> 
> -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Patrick Moore]

Just an entirely negligible aside, but I used to go through all sorts of
contortions to weigh my Riv Roads and other road bikes by gingerly
(gingerly-ly?) balancing them on a plank itself precariously balanced on
the pan of a 25-lb USPS-certified Pelouze spring package scale. The
bathroom scale method was brilliant (Brit sense) by comparison.

Patrick "Oh, the things we used to do in the name of Fredery" Moore

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 3:24 PM aeroperf  wrote:

> ... Patrick—Great idea for first approximation.  My scale is only good to
> the nearest 1/2 pound, though.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Patrick Moore]

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 1:55 PM lconley  wrote:

> ... So why does my Gus Boots Wilsen have a titanium stem and handlebars?
> And I do own a Park bicycle scale and know the weight of my 1971 Gitane
> before and after I applied Weigle frame saver.


Man! I thought I was bad! (Though I'm far less pathologically obsessed with
weight than I used to be, thank God, tho' the gofast does still have a Phil
ti and not steel bb and yes, a ti stem binder bolt.)

... when people start talking about frames "planing", I get that same
> feeling that I do when artsy types try to explain why a painting that
> consists of two black dots on a canvas is a work of genius.


I was of your opinion until I got the Chauncey Matthews clone: I had him
copy my 2003 Curt Goodrich Riv Road custom but in .8 .4 .8 standard gauge
531. Curt had used some doubtless high-end but oversized and, presumably
thick-walled tubing. The Riv weighed -- I just posted that. You've heard me
say this *ad nauseum *(pron. "ahhd NOWseeeaahhm) but I'll say it again: not
only did the clone not feel like it was "bogging down" as the 2003 often
did, but it felt faster than my hitherto *ultima Thule* ("OOlteema
t-HOOlay") 1999 Riv gofast custom, with almost exactly the same geometry
and almost identical wheels and truly identical (at the time of comparison)
tires. So, it wasn't the geometry, it wasn't the riding position, it wasn't
the wheels, it wasn't the tires;* ergo, per remotionem* (ayrgo pair
raymohtseeOHnem) it was the frame, ergo "planing." Right?


> And for proponents of tubeless tires, what in the world is a pinch flat?
> In my 50+ years of riding derailleur equipped bicycles, I have never had a
> pinch flat and am not really sure what one is. A flat is what happens when
> a thin steel wire from a worn-out steel belted radial automobile tire is
> picked up from the pavement by my bicycle tire and penetrates the tube. We
> all have a way of determining what and what is not important to us, and it
> is not necessarily consistent or logical.

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[aeroperf]

Hetchins52-
No, the Sam weighed about 3/4 pounds more than the Homer, comparably 
equipped: 30.5 vs 29 lb 14 oz (29.875).  This is the problem with weighing 
- the Homer was 650B but had heavier tires, etc., etc.

It just comes down to weighing what you actually ride, and then basing off 
of that.  If we could get people to weigh the bare frames before they build 
it up, we could get
a “more rigorous” comparison.  The engineer in me rejoices.  But we really 
don’t ride bare frames, and folks add various things to the build, and it 
really doesn’t matter - Riv folks are not put off by a pound or two either 
way, and there are NO bragging rights here for a “lighter” build, or we’d 
all be retrofitting with $3000 Ultegra groupsets.

The item of interest is the comparison between one “ridden” bike and 
another.  As Leah says,”…said she examined the Susie and it was SO heavy”.  
How heavy?
I recently put a Brooks B17 saddle on my Sam.  The bike felt a lot 
heavier.  Why?  The Brooks has a metal edge in the back.  I lift the bike 
by the handlebars and rear of the saddle, and now it cuts into my fingers…

The subject keeps coming up, though, over and over.  That’s why I recommend 
having the LBS weigh your bike to find out what you actually ride. 
THIS is what you have to lift onto a rack on the back of the car, or haul 
up the stairs to a second-story apartment.  This is what you want to know, 
to answer the question at the top of the thread.   And the LBS will 
probably weigh it for free.

Patrick—
Great idea for first approximation.  My scale is only good to the nearest 
1/2 pound, though.  Since I tour with 35 pounds of crap on board, I try to 
get a little better resolution (also since I ship the bike to where I plan 
to start a tour).
Iconley—
That’s why I use Conti SpeedRide tires.  About a pound apiece, and 6000 
miles without a flat.  That could change tomorrow.  And there is coral in 
Florida…

I’m jesting about the conspiracy, but even Riv says “only a few pounds 
heavier than carbon” without ever giving a frame weight or a comparison.

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[lconley]

I can lose the weight of two complete Rivendell spec complete Clems off of 
my body, and still be overweight, so saving grams off of the bike and low 
spoke counts are not as important to me as they were back in the seventies. 
So why does my Gus Boots Wilsen have a titanium stem and handlebars? And I 
do own a Park bicycle scale and know the weight of my 1971 Gitane before 
and after I applied Weigle frame saver. I can feel the difference when I 
put lighter tires on a bicycle, but when people start talking about frames 
"planing", I get that same feeling that I do when artsy types try to 
explain why a painting that consists of two black dots on a canvas is a 
work of genius. And for proponents of tubeless tires, what in the world is 
a pinch flat? In my 50+ years of riding derailleur equipped bicycles, I 
have never had a pinch flat and am not really sure what one is. A flat is 
what happens when a thin steel wire from a worn-out steel belted radial 
automobile tire is picked up from the pavement by my bicycle tire and 
penetrates the tube. We all have a way of determining what and what is not 
important to us, and it is not necessarily consistent or logical.

Laing
lives in Florida where we don't have any type of native stone - all stones 
are imported.

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:25:09 PM UTC-5 iamkeith wrote:

> I'm guessing it's not so much a conspiracy as it is the fact that a lot of 
> rivendell owners are the type of riders who just don't think or care as 
> much about weight as some other bikers do.  At least I'm that way:   I dont 
> buy cheap frames or put unnecessarily heavy or fragile components on them, 
> so the bike weighs what it weighs. Sometimes I get curious, but not enough 
> to buy or borrow a scale, or to go to the trouble of removing things like 
> leather saddles and bags and racks fenders -  which would be necessary to 
> level the baseline to most cited bike weights, but which would make the 
> measurement meaningless and the bike useless.
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 10:34:47 AM UTC-7 aeroperf wrote:
>
>> While we’re going "arg!"...
>> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be 
>> answered just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>>
>> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her 
>> build, but I guess that’s OBE.
>> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
>> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>>
>> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be 
>> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
>> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or 
>> hanging them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>>
>> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
>> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
>> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
>> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
>> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
>> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
>> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>>
>> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
>> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>>
>> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
>> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
>> tubing, lighter crank.
>>
>> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time 
>> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

['Hetchins52' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I'm surprised that the Sam seems to weigh less than the Homer!
Were the 2015 Sam's made in Taiwan?
I have a 56 cm Toyo Homer which must be a lighter frame and fork. And, it 
has lighter Pacenti Brevet wheels with Paris-Moto tubed tires. When I 
weighed it a few years ago (get on digital bathroom scale with bike, weigh 
again without, subtract) it had a Mark's rack, two Iris cages and a 
Carradice SQR block (only) on the seat post, (might have had a Terry 
"Liberator" saddle) = 24.5 lbs. Added a Topeak pump and it was 25.4 lbs. I 
don't think it had fenders. It does now and I need to check which saddle, 
so I should reweigh it.
David Lipsky
Berkeley

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 9:34:47 AM UTC-8 aeroperf wrote:

> While we’re going "arg!"...
> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered 
> just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>
> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build, 
> but I guess that’s OBE.
> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>
> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be 
> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging 
> them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>
> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>
> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>
> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
> tubing, lighter crank.
>
> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time 
> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[iamkeith]

I'm guessing it's not so much a conspiracy as it is the fact that a lot of 
rivendell owners are the type of riders who just don't think or care as 
much about weight as some other bikers do.  At least I'm that way:   I dont 
buy cheap frames or put unnecessarily heavy or fragile components on them, 
so the bike weighs what it weighs. Sometimes I get curious, but not enough 
to buy or borrow a scale, or to go to the trouble of removing things like 
leather saddles and bags and racks fenders -  which would be necessary to 
level the baseline to most cited bike weights, but which would make the 
measurement meaningless and the bike useless.




On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 10:34:47 AM UTC-7 aeroperf wrote:

> While we’re going "arg!"...
> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered 
> just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>
> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build, 
> but I guess that’s OBE.
> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>
> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be 
> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging 
> them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>
> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>
> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>
> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
> tubing, lighter crank.
>
> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time 
> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Patrick Moore]

Or, if you have a decent body scale, weight before and while holding the
bike.

I'll be interested in hearing Clem weights and corresponding builds.

I do think Riv framesets are heavier than they need to be, but OTOH, so
many people find Clems and such to ride "lighter" than their weight; this
includes a real roadie or ex-roadie, Patrick O'Grady, formerly of Velo News
and BRAIN, who owns a Clem and an Sam and has reviewed these and other Rivs
positively. (He also, apparently lives in ABQ, NM, as I just discovered.)

My 2003 58 c-c Riv Road custom built with very long steerer and head for
26" wheels weighed 7 lb with contemporary Ultegra hs, while my early '70s
Libertas frameset, 60X56 c-c, with *steel* Campy HS weighs 5 lb 14.5 oz.
The Libertas has somehow lasted some 40 or 50 years.

The 2003 built with 48X17 Dingle on Surly flip flop hub, Son, f and r
lights, custom f and r racks, VO fenders, bell, cages, and seat bag with
kit weighed about 26 lb, the same  as the replacement Matthews build up the
same but with 2 lb+ SA AM hub.

I think my Sam Hill with fenders and racks was about 30. For comparison,
the other Matthews "road bike for dirt" with 700C X 62 mm Big Ones and
42/28 X 13-25 10 sp drivetrain, 80 mm alum fenders, SP f+r lighting system,
no racks but Med Revelate Tangle frame bag (emptied of all except the
K-Lite switching gear and cig-pack-size capacitor), plus cages and bell and
steel/aluminum handlebar-attached accessory mount weighs 30.5 lb, thanks to
light wheels (tires 450 grams) and lightweight tubing.

The 1999 gofast fixie custom is 18 lb even with heavy (360 g) pedals and
heavy Phil hubs, but the proposed swappable wheel TC hub will add probably
a lb or more, the also proposed TF only about 1/2 lb.

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 10:34 AM aeroperf  wrote:

> While we’re going "arg!"...
> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered
> just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>
> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build,
> but I guess that’s OBE.
> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their
> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>
> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be
> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging
> them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>
> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c
> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550
> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>
> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding
> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>
> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank
> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner
> tubing, lighter crank.
>
> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time
> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[aeroperf]

While we’re going "arg!"...
A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered 
just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.

I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build, 
but I guess that’s OBE.
How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?

Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be a 
conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging 
them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.

I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
29 pounds, 3 oz

Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.

A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
tubing, lighter crank.

It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time 
at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Johnny Alien]

The Charlie H. Gallop is not exactly a true mixte but it does have a lovely 
swoopy top tube.  It is a tigged road bike basically designed to be a cross 
between a Clem and a Roadini.  While its a road bike primarily it is 
designed to be used with swept back bars. I consider it probably closer to 
a country bike then road but it is light and fast (and the name and color 
back it up). Rivendell had a few prototypes made but for a myriad of 
reasons (with the largest being the supply chain issues and factory back 
up) it got shelved for the time being. I was lucky enough to grab one of 
the prototypes when it was listed on the site.  I know they plan on picking 
the project back up at some point. Hopefully its not too long because this 
is a killer bike that people are going to love. I know there will be 
changes between my prototype and the final product but I am not sure what. 
I think that one of the things will be the brakes. Mine takes V brakes (I 
have mini-V's on it) but I think they are going to switch that to sidepull. 
I have no idea where I got that idea from though.

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 10:29:12 AM UTC-5 Kiley Demond wrote:

> I am so late to this party What pray tell is a "Gallop"? I clicked on 
> the link and am very curious. Yes, it is partly because it is a spectacular 
> shade of orange; I am every bit a girl (Like Leah and Raspberry Sparkle) 
> and when it comes to orange... And it is a mixte. 
>
> Pointing me to links that discuss this new beast (with the best name in a 
> long time), I would be grateful. 
>
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:36:15 PM UTC-7 Johnny Alien wrote:
>
>> @Doug H, I posted the Protogallop in this thread
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/j5vUNKjgsUE/m/rD97QHpSCQAJ
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:48:39 PM UTC-5 Ed Carolipio wrote:
>>
>>> I have a 45cm Clem L (2017 with 26 x 2.1 tires, SunRingle RhynoLite 
>>> rims) and a Small Gus (2020 with 27.5 x 2.4, Cliffhanger rims) so caveat my 
>>> experiences as a shorter (78cm PBH) and a "stouter" (220 lbs) rider than 
>>> you. Also, I think I'm supposed to be on a 52cm Clem so there's a slight 
>>> apples-to-oranges effect in the comparison.
>>>
>>> I set up the Gus as a trail bike, with a large handlebar bag and a large 
>>> saddle bag supported by a Mark's rack, both which center the load 
>>> left/right and keeps the weight between the axles. I run the 
>>> super-wide-swept back Tosco Bullmoose-style bars. Set up this way I find it 
>>> capable and comfortable on our rocky, loose-over-hardpack trails in SoCal 
>>> as long as the trail is not overly technical. I have the Clem set up as a 
>>> flat bar urban commuter (I'm using a Jones loop) with fenders, a front 
>>> basket, and large Nitto rear rack. The Clem L handles "like a Riv," takes 
>>> to loads well, and always feels solid.
>>>
>>> I tried the Gus as a pavement commuter and ... nope. I didn't like how 
>>> it steered with a load in a front basket, and too soft a front tire leads 
>>> self steering on pavement. I like to run a single heavy pannier when 
>>> commuting, and the Gus really didn't like that offset load. (The Clem isn't 
>>> bothered by the same load.) The Gus is so much bigger in every dimension 
>>> than the Clem L so, as others have pointed out, it's harder to live with in 
>>> the city. I haven't tried the Clem L on dirt but I suspect it would perform 
>>> competently on groomed dirt paths and maybe some single track when set up 
>>> with a swept back Bosco, bag-and-racks, no fenders, and wider tires.
>>>
>>> That said, I've tried a few setups on the Clem L and have always 
>>> preferred the way the Gus rides over it (which granted may be due to the 
>>> sizing difference.) Forced between the two, I'd keep the Gus and live with 
>>> its shortcomings as a city bike and pavement commuter - I just like the 
>>> "rigid steel trail bike" ride which the Gus provides.
>>>
>>> --Ed C.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:08:51 PM UTC-8 Kiley Demond wrote:
>>>
 This has probably been hashed over numerous times so at the risk of 
 making some of you go "arg!"...

 What are the differences of note between Clem L. and Susie W.? 

- Handling (stability, nimbleness)
- Wieldy-ness (overall size, weight, etc.)
- Suitability for electrifying at a future date
- Any other thoughts, whether experiential or theoretical

 The person asking is 5'10" 140lbs with a pbh of 91. I had a 60cm 
 Cheviot which I loved but sold several years ago when financial issues 
 overrode having such a fancy ride. I would prefer to buy a frame only and 
 do the build myself. I was gutted when I saw that an orange Susie W. frame 
 was listed (and sold); I wasn't paying sufficient attention. I "won" the 
 right-to-purchase lottery for a Clem but couldn't do it because they were 
 sold as complete and I hadn't done my due diligence on Susie Ws.

[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Kiley Demond]

I am so late to this party What pray tell is a "Gallop"? I clicked on 
the link and am very curious. Yes, it is partly because it is a spectacular 
shade of orange; I am every bit a girl (Like Leah and Raspberry Sparkle) 
and when it comes to orange... And it is a mixte. 

Pointing me to links that discuss this new beast (with the best name in a 
long time), I would be grateful. 

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:36:15 PM UTC-7 Johnny Alien wrote:

> @Doug H, I posted the Protogallop in this thread
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/j5vUNKjgsUE/m/rD97QHpSCQAJ
>
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:48:39 PM UTC-5 Ed Carolipio wrote:
>
>> I have a 45cm Clem L (2017 with 26 x 2.1 tires, SunRingle RhynoLite rims) 
>> and a Small Gus (2020 with 27.5 x 2.4, Cliffhanger rims) so caveat my 
>> experiences as a shorter (78cm PBH) and a "stouter" (220 lbs) rider than 
>> you. Also, I think I'm supposed to be on a 52cm Clem so there's a slight 
>> apples-to-oranges effect in the comparison.
>>
>> I set up the Gus as a trail bike, with a large handlebar bag and a large 
>> saddle bag supported by a Mark's rack, both which center the load 
>> left/right and keeps the weight between the axles. I run the 
>> super-wide-swept back Tosco Bullmoose-style bars. Set up this way I find it 
>> capable and comfortable on our rocky, loose-over-hardpack trails in SoCal 
>> as long as the trail is not overly technical. I have the Clem set up as a 
>> flat bar urban commuter (I'm using a Jones loop) with fenders, a front 
>> basket, and large Nitto rear rack. The Clem L handles "like a Riv," takes 
>> to loads well, and always feels solid.
>>
>> I tried the Gus as a pavement commuter and ... nope. I didn't like how it 
>> steered with a load in a front basket, and too soft a front tire leads self 
>> steering on pavement. I like to run a single heavy pannier when commuting, 
>> and the Gus really didn't like that offset load. (The Clem isn't bothered 
>> by the same load.) The Gus is so much bigger in every dimension than the 
>> Clem L so, as others have pointed out, it's harder to live with in the 
>> city. I haven't tried the Clem L on dirt but I suspect it would perform 
>> competently on groomed dirt paths and maybe some single track when set up 
>> with a swept back Bosco, bag-and-racks, no fenders, and wider tires.
>>
>> That said, I've tried a few setups on the Clem L and have always 
>> preferred the way the Gus rides over it (which granted may be due to the 
>> sizing difference.) Forced between the two, I'd keep the Gus and live with 
>> its shortcomings as a city bike and pavement commuter - I just like the 
>> "rigid steel trail bike" ride which the Gus provides.
>>
>> --Ed C.
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:08:51 PM UTC-8 Kiley Demond wrote:
>>
>>> This has probably been hashed over numerous times so at the risk of 
>>> making some of you go "arg!"...
>>>
>>> What are the differences of note between Clem L. and Susie W.? 
>>>
>>>- Handling (stability, nimbleness)
>>>- Wieldy-ness (overall size, weight, etc.)
>>>- Suitability for electrifying at a future date
>>>- Any other thoughts, whether experiential or theoretical
>>>
>>> The person asking is 5'10" 140lbs with a pbh of 91. I had a 60cm Cheviot 
>>> which I loved but sold several years ago when financial issues overrode 
>>> having such a fancy ride. I would prefer to buy a frame only and do the 
>>> build myself. I was gutted when I saw that an orange Susie W. frame was 
>>> listed (and sold); I wasn't paying sufficient attention. I "won" the 
>>> right-to-purchase lottery for a Clem but couldn't do it because they were 
>>> sold as complete and I hadn't done my due diligence on Susie Ws.
>>>
>>> Thank you for your collective insights and wisdom!
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Kiley Demond]

I ride mostly light trails and some roads. More unpaved than paved but 
nothing "gnarly"; I don't have a death wish. 

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:33:50 AM UTC-7 Johnny Alien wrote:

> What type of riding are we talking about? To me that would make a 
> difference. If it's mostly paved then I am going to be biased and say wait 
> until the Gallop is officially released. I have my proto built up as a 1x11 
> and with pacenti wheels it's in the 20 lb range. Light, fast and has the 
> great looks of the Susie/Gus. I didn't think it would take over my road 
> specific Saluki but it has. I am contemplating selling/trading the Saluki 
> toward a Clem L for light trail. Or maybe I should set the Saluki up to be 
> trail like. I just love the step through designs.
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 9:55:14 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> This is the sort of report -- there have been others -- that keeps the 
>> Clem, despite my misgivings, on the "some day" list. Well described.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 7:48 PM iamkeith  wrote:
>>
>>> ... The Clem feels like a true Rivendell, with a low center of gravity, 
>>> stable and instantly comfortable.  The steering is pretty quick - like a 
>>> relaxed rivish road bike more than a mountain bike as I was expecting when 
>>> I got it.  As a result, it was quite (most) enjoyable on pavement and at 
>>> speed.  With the long wheelbase, it differed from a "regular" road bike in 
>>> that I felt like every bit of effort translated to forward motion.  Kind of 
>>> like a speed skate versus a hockey skate.
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Kiley Demond]

Thank you for the exhaustive answer! I chickened out on the Clem L in the 
lottery... which of course now is a semi-regret. Ah, a resale awaits and 
will find me at the right time.

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 7:48:34 PM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:

> I had a 59 Clem H from the first run, and now have a 56 Suzie.   In both 
> cases, I'm pretty sure mine were the first frames pre-ordered from Riv. - I 
> had followed the development closely and both spoke to me as being the 
> perfect bike for what I wanted at the time, and I pulled the trigger the 
> second they went live.   Here are some random, rambling thoughts and 
> impressions.  Keep in mind as you read this that, although we'd ride the 
> same size frame, we'd have entirely different experiences.  I'm about 4" 
> taller than you (6'-2"), but have a shorter PBH (87). 
>
> First things first:  They are very different bikes!  When I ordered the 
> Susie, I thought it was going to mostly be a "perfected" version of the 
> Clem, and that it would solve a couple of the minor but nagging complaints 
> I had about the Clem (slightly too long of chainstays and too little 
> standover clearance for trail/mountain use; too short of a top tube for a 
> good fit; too flexy of a frame).  The Susie did rectify all of those 
> things, but I was otherwise completely wrong about one being a direct 
> replacement for the other - there are very few similarites.   I kick myself 
> daily for getting rid of the Clem.  Not not because I liked it "more" than 
> the Susie, but because I could have found a place for both in the quiver 
> had I known how different they are, and had I known that almost none of the 
> parts were transferable from one to the other - which meant that I had to 
> re-purchase a lot of pieces that I hadn't intended to.  
>
> In terms of ride/stability:  The Clem feels like a true Rivendell, with a 
> low center of gravity, stable and instantly comfortable.  The steering is 
> pretty quick - like a relaxed rivish road bike more than a mountain bike as 
> I was expecting when I got it.  As a result, it was quite (most) enjoyable 
> on pavement and at speed.  With the long wheelbase, it differed from a 
> "regular" road bike in that I felt like every bit of effort translated to 
> forward motion.  Kind of like a speed skate versus a hockey skate.  The 
> Susie, on the other hand, has a very-noticably higher bottom bracket and, 
> therefore, center of gravity.  It also has a more relaxed steering 
> geometry.  So it feels like a lot of mountain bikes or off-road touring 
> bikes, but without that distictive "rivendell" quality.  Less effort for 
> slow-speed cruising around.  Even though the Susie is lighter gauge tubing 
> (and lighter overall), it is less flexy than the Clem.  On rough trails or 
> standing out of the pedals, I'd got shimmy on the Clem, as I felt the whole 
> frame flex torsionally.  This is a guess, but I attribute part of the 
> Susie's relative rigidity to the shaped chainstays that add better 
> triangulation.  The clem's are arrow-straight.
>
> In terms of "wieldy-ness,"  the Clem was definitely a chore to bring 
> along.   I had to take the wheel off to fit it in the back of my pickup.  I 
> don't need to do that with the Susie.   I don't live in an apartment or 
> have to deal with stairs but, even if I did, I'd nonetheless gladly 
> sacrifice a little convenience to own either bike.  Both are big but, 
> having gotten used to them, I can't imagine ever buying a short bike again 
> - at least for trails and town and day-to-day use.  I have a ton of bikes, 
> but these are the ones I almost always grab.  (This is when I kick myself 
> the most for getting rid of the Clem - it felt more like an extension of me 
> than the Susie does.)  Unless your frame of reference is carbon fiber road 
> race bikes, neither are heavy bikes by any stretch.  Even with full racks 
> and fenders, I never think about the weight like i do with some of my bikes.
>
> In terms of suitability for electrifying:  You're on you own... but Joe 
> could probably help.  I see the Susie as my heirloom forever bike, and I 
> can't imagine bolting a motor to it or adding stresses that might damage it 
> - but that's me.  Personally, I'd get one of the cheap, heavy-duty Jones 
> LWBs if I wanted to do this, or just get an off-the-shelf electric bike for 
> less money.  
>
> Fit-wise, the Susie has too much stack height for me, with the bars I 
> stubbornly want to use (bullmoose bosco) and, though longer, is STILL not 
> long enough in the top tube.  The Clem was marginal (almost too high) for 
> stack height, but it worked.   If you're flexible with cockpit choice, this 
> can of course be fixed, but I basically find the Susie to be more 
> restrictive.  It even makes the steering a little too light for me, as I'm 
> forced to be too upright and can't lean my weight forward enough.  In your 
> case, with a shorter torso and longer legs, I'd suspect that you'll find 

[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Doug H.]

Thank you Johnny. I must have missed that thread but the bike looks really 
good. An all road kind of vibe.
Doug

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 4:36:49 PM UTC-5 Johnny Alien wrote:

> I've since changed the stem and tires. I should get an updated photo
>
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 4:36:15 PM UTC-5 Johnny Alien wrote:
>
>> @Doug H, I posted the Protogallop in this thread
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/j5vUNKjgsUE/m/rD97QHpSCQAJ
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:48:39 PM UTC-5 Ed Carolipio wrote:
>>
>>> I have a 45cm Clem L (2017 with 26 x 2.1 tires, SunRingle RhynoLite 
>>> rims) and a Small Gus (2020 with 27.5 x 2.4, Cliffhanger rims) so caveat my 
>>> experiences as a shorter (78cm PBH) and a "stouter" (220 lbs) rider than 
>>> you. Also, I think I'm supposed to be on a 52cm Clem so there's a slight 
>>> apples-to-oranges effect in the comparison.
>>>
>>> I set up the Gus as a trail bike, with a large handlebar bag and a large 
>>> saddle bag supported by a Mark's rack, both which center the load 
>>> left/right and keeps the weight between the axles. I run the 
>>> super-wide-swept back Tosco Bullmoose-style bars. Set up this way I find it 
>>> capable and comfortable on our rocky, loose-over-hardpack trails in SoCal 
>>> as long as the trail is not overly technical. I have the Clem set up as a 
>>> flat bar urban commuter (I'm using a Jones loop) with fenders, a front 
>>> basket, and large Nitto rear rack. The Clem L handles "like a Riv," takes 
>>> to loads well, and always feels solid.
>>>
>>> I tried the Gus as a pavement commuter and ... nope. I didn't like how 
>>> it steered with a load in a front basket, and too soft a front tire leads 
>>> self steering on pavement. I like to run a single heavy pannier when 
>>> commuting, and the Gus really didn't like that offset load. (The Clem isn't 
>>> bothered by the same load.) The Gus is so much bigger in every dimension 
>>> than the Clem L so, as others have pointed out, it's harder to live with in 
>>> the city. I haven't tried the Clem L on dirt but I suspect it would perform 
>>> competently on groomed dirt paths and maybe some single track when set up 
>>> with a swept back Bosco, bag-and-racks, no fenders, and wider tires.
>>>
>>> That said, I've tried a few setups on the Clem L and have always 
>>> preferred the way the Gus rides over it (which granted may be due to the 
>>> sizing difference.) Forced between the two, I'd keep the Gus and live with 
>>> its shortcomings as a city bike and pavement commuter - I just like the 
>>> "rigid steel trail bike" ride which the Gus provides.
>>>
>>> --Ed C.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:08:51 PM UTC-8 Kiley Demond wrote:
>>>
 This has probably been hashed over numerous times so at the risk of 
 making some of you go "arg!"...

 What are the differences of note between Clem L. and Susie W.? 

- Handling (stability, nimbleness)
- Wieldy-ness (overall size, weight, etc.)
- Suitability for electrifying at a future date
- Any other thoughts, whether experiential or theoretical

 The person asking is 5'10" 140lbs with a pbh of 91. I had a 60cm 
 Cheviot which I loved but sold several years ago when financial issues 
 overrode having such a fancy ride. I would prefer to buy a frame only and 
 do the build myself. I was gutted when I saw that an orange Susie W. frame 
 was listed (and sold); I wasn't paying sufficient attention. I "won" the 
 right-to-purchase lottery for a Clem but couldn't do it because they were 
 sold as complete and I hadn't done my due diligence on Susie Ws.

 Thank you for your collective insights and wisdom!

>>>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Johnny Alien]

I've since changed the stem and tires. I should get an updated photo

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 4:36:15 PM UTC-5 Johnny Alien wrote:

> @Doug H, I posted the Protogallop in this thread
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/j5vUNKjgsUE/m/rD97QHpSCQAJ
>
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:48:39 PM UTC-5 Ed Carolipio wrote:
>
>> I have a 45cm Clem L (2017 with 26 x 2.1 tires, SunRingle RhynoLite rims) 
>> and a Small Gus (2020 with 27.5 x 2.4, Cliffhanger rims) so caveat my 
>> experiences as a shorter (78cm PBH) and a "stouter" (220 lbs) rider than 
>> you. Also, I think I'm supposed to be on a 52cm Clem so there's a slight 
>> apples-to-oranges effect in the comparison.
>>
>> I set up the Gus as a trail bike, with a large handlebar bag and a large 
>> saddle bag supported by a Mark's rack, both which center the load 
>> left/right and keeps the weight between the axles. I run the 
>> super-wide-swept back Tosco Bullmoose-style bars. Set up this way I find it 
>> capable and comfortable on our rocky, loose-over-hardpack trails in SoCal 
>> as long as the trail is not overly technical. I have the Clem set up as a 
>> flat bar urban commuter (I'm using a Jones loop) with fenders, a front 
>> basket, and large Nitto rear rack. The Clem L handles "like a Riv," takes 
>> to loads well, and always feels solid.
>>
>> I tried the Gus as a pavement commuter and ... nope. I didn't like how it 
>> steered with a load in a front basket, and too soft a front tire leads self 
>> steering on pavement. I like to run a single heavy pannier when commuting, 
>> and the Gus really didn't like that offset load. (The Clem isn't bothered 
>> by the same load.) The Gus is so much bigger in every dimension than the 
>> Clem L so, as others have pointed out, it's harder to live with in the 
>> city. I haven't tried the Clem L on dirt but I suspect it would perform 
>> competently on groomed dirt paths and maybe some single track when set up 
>> with a swept back Bosco, bag-and-racks, no fenders, and wider tires.
>>
>> That said, I've tried a few setups on the Clem L and have always 
>> preferred the way the Gus rides over it (which granted may be due to the 
>> sizing difference.) Forced between the two, I'd keep the Gus and live with 
>> its shortcomings as a city bike and pavement commuter - I just like the 
>> "rigid steel trail bike" ride which the Gus provides.
>>
>> --Ed C.
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:08:51 PM UTC-8 Kiley Demond wrote:
>>
>>> This has probably been hashed over numerous times so at the risk of 
>>> making some of you go "arg!"...
>>>
>>> What are the differences of note between Clem L. and Susie W.? 
>>>
>>>- Handling (stability, nimbleness)
>>>- Wieldy-ness (overall size, weight, etc.)
>>>- Suitability for electrifying at a future date
>>>- Any other thoughts, whether experiential or theoretical
>>>
>>> The person asking is 5'10" 140lbs with a pbh of 91. I had a 60cm Cheviot 
>>> which I loved but sold several years ago when financial issues overrode 
>>> having such a fancy ride. I would prefer to buy a frame only and do the 
>>> build myself. I was gutted when I saw that an orange Susie W. frame was 
>>> listed (and sold); I wasn't paying sufficient attention. I "won" the 
>>> right-to-purchase lottery for a Clem but couldn't do it because they were 
>>> sold as complete and I hadn't done my due diligence on Susie Ws.
>>>
>>> Thank you for your collective insights and wisdom!
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Johnny Alien]

@Doug H, I posted the Protogallop in this thread

https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/j5vUNKjgsUE/m/rD97QHpSCQAJ

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:48:39 PM UTC-5 Ed Carolipio wrote:

> I have a 45cm Clem L (2017 with 26 x 2.1 tires, SunRingle RhynoLite rims) 
> and a Small Gus (2020 with 27.5 x 2.4, Cliffhanger rims) so caveat my 
> experiences as a shorter (78cm PBH) and a "stouter" (220 lbs) rider than 
> you. Also, I think I'm supposed to be on a 52cm Clem so there's a slight 
> apples-to-oranges effect in the comparison.
>
> I set up the Gus as a trail bike, with a large handlebar bag and a large 
> saddle bag supported by a Mark's rack, both which center the load 
> left/right and keeps the weight between the axles. I run the 
> super-wide-swept back Tosco Bullmoose-style bars. Set up this way I find it 
> capable and comfortable on our rocky, loose-over-hardpack trails in SoCal 
> as long as the trail is not overly technical. I have the Clem set up as a 
> flat bar urban commuter (I'm using a Jones loop) with fenders, a front 
> basket, and large Nitto rear rack. The Clem L handles "like a Riv," takes 
> to loads well, and always feels solid.
>
> I tried the Gus as a pavement commuter and ... nope. I didn't like how it 
> steered with a load in a front basket, and too soft a front tire leads self 
> steering on pavement. I like to run a single heavy pannier when commuting, 
> and the Gus really didn't like that offset load. (The Clem isn't bothered 
> by the same load.) The Gus is so much bigger in every dimension than the 
> Clem L so, as others have pointed out, it's harder to live with in the 
> city. I haven't tried the Clem L on dirt but I suspect it would perform 
> competently on groomed dirt paths and maybe some single track when set up 
> with a swept back Bosco, bag-and-racks, no fenders, and wider tires.
>
> That said, I've tried a few setups on the Clem L and have always preferred 
> the way the Gus rides over it (which granted may be due to the sizing 
> difference.) Forced between the two, I'd keep the Gus and live with its 
> shortcomings as a city bike and pavement commuter - I just like the "rigid 
> steel trail bike" ride which the Gus provides.
>
> --Ed C.
>
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:08:51 PM UTC-8 Kiley Demond wrote:
>
>> This has probably been hashed over numerous times so at the risk of 
>> making some of you go "arg!"...
>>
>> What are the differences of note between Clem L. and Susie W.? 
>>
>>- Handling (stability, nimbleness)
>>- Wieldy-ness (overall size, weight, etc.)
>>- Suitability for electrifying at a future date
>>- Any other thoughts, whether experiential or theoretical
>>
>> The person asking is 5'10" 140lbs with a pbh of 91. I had a 60cm Cheviot 
>> which I loved but sold several years ago when financial issues overrode 
>> having such a fancy ride. I would prefer to buy a frame only and do the 
>> build myself. I was gutted when I saw that an orange Susie W. frame was 
>> listed (and sold); I wasn't paying sufficient attention. I "won" the 
>> right-to-purchase lottery for a Clem but couldn't do it because they were 
>> sold as complete and I hadn't done my due diligence on Susie Ws.
>>
>> Thank you for your collective insights and wisdom!
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Ed Carolipio]

I have a 45cm Clem L (2017 with 26 x 2.1 tires, SunRingle RhynoLite rims) 
and a Small Gus (2020 with 27.5 x 2.4, Cliffhanger rims) so caveat my 
experiences as a shorter (78cm PBH) and a "stouter" (220 lbs) rider than 
you. Also, I think I'm supposed to be on a 52cm Clem so there's a slight 
apples-to-oranges effect in the comparison.

I set up the Gus as a trail bike, with a large handlebar bag and a large 
saddle bag supported by a Mark's rack, both which center the load 
left/right and keeps the weight between the axles. I run the 
super-wide-swept back Tosco Bullmoose-style bars. Set up this way I find it 
capable and comfortable on our rocky, loose-over-hardpack trails in SoCal 
as long as the trail is not overly technical. I have the Clem set up as a 
flat bar urban commuter (I'm using a Jones loop) with fenders, a front 
basket, and large Nitto rear rack. The Clem L handles "like a Riv," takes 
to loads well, and always feels solid.

I tried the Gus as a pavement commuter and ... nope. I didn't like how it 
steered with a load in a front basket, and too soft a front tire leads self 
steering on pavement. I like to run a single heavy pannier when commuting, 
and the Gus really didn't like that offset load. (The Clem isn't bothered 
by the same load.) The Gus is so much bigger in every dimension than the 
Clem L so, as others have pointed out, it's harder to live with in the 
city. I haven't tried the Clem L on dirt but I suspect it would perform 
competently on groomed dirt paths and maybe some single track when set up 
with a swept back Bosco, bag-and-racks, no fenders, and wider tires.

That said, I've tried a few setups on the Clem L and have always preferred 
the way the Gus rides over it (which granted may be due to the sizing 
difference.) Forced between the two, I'd keep the Gus and live with its 
shortcomings as a city bike and pavement commuter - I just like the "rigid 
steel trail bike" ride which the Gus provides.

--Ed C.

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:08:51 PM UTC-8 Kiley Demond wrote:

> This has probably been hashed over numerous times so at the risk of making 
> some of you go "arg!"...
>
> What are the differences of note between Clem L. and Susie W.? 
>
>- Handling (stability, nimbleness)
>- Wieldy-ness (overall size, weight, etc.)
>- Suitability for electrifying at a future date
>- Any other thoughts, whether experiential or theoretical
>
> The person asking is 5'10" 140lbs with a pbh of 91. I had a 60cm Cheviot 
> which I loved but sold several years ago when financial issues overrode 
> having such a fancy ride. I would prefer to buy a frame only and do the 
> build myself. I was gutted when I saw that an orange Susie W. frame was 
> listed (and sold); I wasn't paying sufficient attention. I "won" the 
> right-to-purchase lottery for a Clem but couldn't do it because they were 
> sold as complete and I hadn't done my due diligence on Susie Ws.
>
> Thank you for your collective insights and wisdom!
>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[iamkeith]

Thinking about my earlier, rambling repsonse, I thougth I should add some 
revisions/clarifications.  These are mostly comments about how my 
experience would be different from yours, Kiley,  based on body type 
differneces:

Regarding stack height on the susie, I think I actually had it backwards.  
It would probably work better for you than it does for me.I think the 
best frame of reference, for knowing where you like your bars, is to think 
of them relative to your saddle height.  Assume that a level or same-height 
relationship is probably the best starting point, for discussion sake.  
 Since your saddle would be higher than mine, the bars would be relatively 
lower, all other things being equal.   The fact that this is even an issue 
for me speaks only to my odd proportions - not the design of the bike.  
 Very few manufacturers ever make the stack height / head tube anywhere 
near tall enough on their large and extra-large bikes.  Rivendell is the 
only one I can think of that actually grows their frames proportionally.

Regarding the stiffness, I also forgot to mention that I'm 70 pounds 
heavier than you.  So it's unlikely you'd share the issues I did with the 
Clem being too flexy, even with the L/Clementine version.  (Incidentally, 
the aversion to flex and my tendency to stand up and rock the handlebars 
back and forth as I accelerate or climb is part of why I'm so insistent on 
using the bullmoose bosco bars, even though they add a lot of height.  
Everything else I tried was too flexy.  I'm hoping they eventually make a 
bullmoose tosco bar, which would be perfect.)

In the end, I think I'd steer you toward the Clem if part of your 
motivation is a fondness you had for your Cheviot.  It will have many of 
the same distinctive rivendell qualities, whereas the Susie is probably 
similar to a number of other bikes out there except for being much, much 
prettier, and except for fitting properly without the need for a bunch of 
stem spacers.   Compared to the Cheviot, you'd have the ability to use 
bigger, plusher tires and would have an even MORE relaxed, in-the-bike 
comfort.   I think this echos what Leah says about her platypus, too.   I 
haven't had the opportunity to try one of the revised-geometry clems, with 
the longer effective top tube measurements, but that's a huge improvement 
in my mind and, as I mentioned, one of the reasons I got rid of mine.
 Once again though, you'll fit differently than I do, even on the same size 
frame.  As your seatpost extends to raise your saddle higher than mine, it 
will also retreat in a rearward direction, making the bars further away.  
 So the longer reach probably will lock you into swept-back bars like the 
Bosco - which is perfect to me - but this is just an educated guess.

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 7:48:34 PM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:

> I had a 59 Clem H from the first run, and now have a 56 Suzie.   In both 
> cases, I'm pretty sure mine were the first frames pre-ordered from Riv. - I 
> had followed the development closely and both spoke to me as being the 
> perfect bike for what I wanted at the time, and I pulled the trigger the 
> second they went live.   Here are some random, rambling thoughts and 
> impressions.  Keep in mind as you read this that, although we'd ride the 
> same size frame, we'd have entirely different experiences.  I'm about 4" 
> taller than you (6'-2"), but have a shorter PBH (87). 
>
> First things first:  They are very different bikes!  When I ordered the 
> Susie, I thought it was going to mostly be a "perfected" version of the 
> Clem, and that it would solve a couple of the minor but nagging complaints 
> I had about the Clem (slightly too long of chainstays and too little 
> standover clearance for trail/mountain use; too short of a top tube for a 
> good fit; too flexy of a frame).  The Susie did rectify all of those 
> things, but I was otherwise completely wrong about one being a direct 
> replacement for the other - there are very few similarites.   I kick myself 
> daily for getting rid of the Clem.  Not not because I liked it "more" than 
> the Susie, but because I could have found a place for both in the quiver 
> had I known how different they are, and had I known that almost none of the 
> parts were transferable from one to the other - which meant that I had to 
> re-purchase a lot of pieces that I hadn't intended to.  
>
> In terms of ride/stability:  The Clem feels like a true Rivendell, with a 
> low center of gravity, stable and instantly comfortable.  The steering is 
> pretty quick - like a relaxed rivish road bike more than a mountain bike as 
> I was expecting when I got it.  As a result, it was quite (most) enjoyable 
> on pavement and at speed.  With the long wheelbase, it differed from a 
> "regular" road bike in that I felt like every bit of effort translated to 
> forward motion.  Kind of like a speed skate versus a hockey skate.  The 
> Susie, on the other hand, has a 

Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Doug H.]

Johnny,
Have you posted photos of your proto Gallop? I'd be keen on seeing it.
Doug
Athens, Ga

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 8:33 AM Johnny Alien 
wrote:

> What type of riding are we talking about? To me that would make a
> difference. If it's mostly paved then I am going to be biased and say wait
> until the Gallop is officially released. I have my proto built up as a 1x11
> and with pacenti wheels it's in the 20 lb range. Light, fast and has the
> great looks of the Susie/Gus. I didn't think it would take over my road
> specific Saluki but it has. I am contemplating selling/trading the Saluki
> toward a Clem L for light trail. Or maybe I should set the Saluki up to be
> trail like. I just love the step through designs.
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 9:55:14 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> This is the sort of report -- there have been others -- that keeps the
>> Clem, despite my misgivings, on the "some day" list. Well described.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 7:48 PM iamkeith  wrote:
>>
>>> ... The Clem feels like a true Rivendell, with a low center of gravity,
>>> stable and instantly comfortable.  The steering is pretty quick - like a
>>> relaxed rivish road bike more than a mountain bike as I was expecting when
>>> I got it.  As a result, it was quite (most) enjoyable on pavement and at
>>> speed.  With the long wheelbase, it differed from a "regular" road bike in
>>> that I felt like every bit of effort translated to forward motion.  Kind of
>>> like a speed skate versus a hockey skate.
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Johnny Alien]

What type of riding are we talking about? To me that would make a 
difference. If it's mostly paved then I am going to be biased and say wait 
until the Gallop is officially released. I have my proto built up as a 1x11 
and with pacenti wheels it's in the 20 lb range. Light, fast and has the 
great looks of the Susie/Gus. I didn't think it would take over my road 
specific Saluki but it has. I am contemplating selling/trading the Saluki 
toward a Clem L for light trail. Or maybe I should set the Saluki up to be 
trail like. I just love the step through designs.


On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 9:55:14 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> This is the sort of report -- there have been others -- that keeps the 
> Clem, despite my misgivings, on the "some day" list. Well described.
>
> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 7:48 PM iamkeith  wrote:
>
>> ... The Clem feels like a true Rivendell, with a low center of gravity, 
>> stable and instantly comfortable.  The steering is pretty quick - like a 
>> relaxed rivish road bike more than a mountain bike as I was expecting when 
>> I got it.  As a result, it was quite (most) enjoyable on pavement and at 
>> speed.  With the long wheelbase, it differed from a "regular" road bike in 
>> that I felt like every bit of effort translated to forward motion.  Kind of 
>> like a speed skate versus a hockey skate.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Patrick Moore]

This is the sort of report -- there have been others -- that keeps the
Clem, despite my misgivings, on the "some day" list. Well described.

On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 7:48 PM iamkeith  wrote:

> ... The Clem feels like a true Rivendell, with a low center of gravity,
> stable and instantly comfortable.  The steering is pretty quick - like a
> relaxed rivish road bike more than a mountain bike as I was expecting when
> I got it.  As a result, it was quite (most) enjoyable on pavement and at
> speed.  With the long wheelbase, it differed from a "regular" road bike in
> that I felt like every bit of effort translated to forward motion.  Kind of
> like a speed skate versus a hockey skate.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Patrick Moore]

Meandering off of this particular juxtaposition of thoughts: the frameset
was 1970s and French and light: I also have a Libertas frameset, tout 531
and Belgian and light; and I wonder if French-standard road-bike 531 tubing
back in the early '70s was particularly light, because I've had other 531
frames that didn't feel as light, at least when hefting them -- I never
went scientific and weighed them, except for the Libertas which, *at 60 c-c
X 56 c-c, with steel Campy headset!* weighs 5.9 lb on a digital scale. The
58 X 56.5 c-c 2003 Riv weighed (frame, fork, Ultegra cartridge headset): *7
lb!*

Back to Clems, light, heavy, or in-between.

On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 7:38 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> ... 1973 racing frameset of really light standard gauge 531 -- I recall
> hefting it upon receipt, and being disappointed that it was so much lighter
> than my 2003 Riv frameset -- I wanted the nicer bike to be lighter.
>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[iamkeith]

I had a 59 Clem H from the first run, and now have a 56 Suzie.   In both 
cases, I'm pretty sure mine were the first frames pre-ordered from Riv. - I 
had followed the development closely and both spoke to me as being the 
perfect bike for what I wanted at the time, and I pulled the trigger the 
second they went live.   Here are some random, rambling thoughts and 
impressions.  Keep in mind as you read this that, although we'd ride the 
same size frame, we'd have entirely different experiences.  I'm about 4" 
taller than you (6'-2"), but have a shorter PBH (87). 

First things first:  They are very different bikes!  When I ordered the 
Susie, I thought it was going to mostly be a "perfected" version of the 
Clem, and that it would solve a couple of the minor but nagging complaints 
I had about the Clem (slightly too long of chainstays and too little 
standover clearance for trail/mountain use; too short of a top tube for a 
good fit; too flexy of a frame).  The Susie did rectify all of those 
things, but I was otherwise completely wrong about one being a direct 
replacement for the other - there are very few similarites.   I kick myself 
daily for getting rid of the Clem.  Not not because I liked it "more" than 
the Susie, but because I could have found a place for both in the quiver 
had I known how different they are, and had I known that almost none of the 
parts were transferable from one to the other - which meant that I had to 
re-purchase a lot of pieces that I hadn't intended to.  

In terms of ride/stability:  The Clem feels like a true Rivendell, with a 
low center of gravity, stable and instantly comfortable.  The steering is 
pretty quick - like a relaxed rivish road bike more than a mountain bike as 
I was expecting when I got it.  As a result, it was quite (most) enjoyable 
on pavement and at speed.  With the long wheelbase, it differed from a 
"regular" road bike in that I felt like every bit of effort translated to 
forward motion.  Kind of like a speed skate versus a hockey skate.  The 
Susie, on the other hand, has a very-noticably higher bottom bracket and, 
therefore, center of gravity.  It also has a more relaxed steering 
geometry.  So it feels like a lot of mountain bikes or off-road touring 
bikes, but without that distictive "rivendell" quality.  Less effort for 
slow-speed cruising around.  Even though the Susie is lighter gauge tubing 
(and lighter overall), it is less flexy than the Clem.  On rough trails or 
standing out of the pedals, I'd got shimmy on the Clem, as I felt the whole 
frame flex torsionally.  This is a guess, but I attribute part of the 
Susie's relative rigidity to the shaped chainstays that add better 
triangulation.  The clem's are arrow-straight.

In terms of "wieldy-ness,"  the Clem was definitely a chore to bring 
along.   I had to take the wheel off to fit it in the back of my pickup.  I 
don't need to do that with the Susie.   I don't live in an apartment or 
have to deal with stairs but, even if I did, I'd nonetheless gladly 
sacrifice a little convenience to own either bike.  Both are big but, 
having gotten used to them, I can't imagine ever buying a short bike again 
- at least for trails and town and day-to-day use.  I have a ton of bikes, 
but these are the ones I almost always grab.  (This is when I kick myself 
the most for getting rid of the Clem - it felt more like an extension of me 
than the Susie does.)  Unless your frame of reference is carbon fiber road 
race bikes, neither are heavy bikes by any stretch.  Even with full racks 
and fenders, I never think about the weight like i do with some of my bikes.

In terms of suitability for electrifying:  You're on you own... but Joe 
could probably help.  I see the Susie as my heirloom forever bike, and I 
can't imagine bolting a motor to it or adding stresses that might damage it 
- but that's me.  Personally, I'd get one of the cheap, heavy-duty Jones 
LWBs if I wanted to do this, or just get an off-the-shelf electric bike for 
less money.  

Fit-wise, the Susie has too much stack height for me, with the bars I 
stubbornly want to use (bullmoose bosco) and, though longer, is STILL not 
long enough in the top tube.  The Clem was marginal (almost too high) for 
stack height, but it worked.   If you're flexible with cockpit choice, this 
can of course be fixed, but I basically find the Susie to be more 
restrictive.  It even makes the steering a little too light for me, as I'm 
forced to be too upright and can't lean my weight forward enough.  In your 
case, with a shorter torso and longer legs, I'd suspect that you'll find 
the top tube lengths adequate, but the susie's stack height will be 
shockingly tall.   

I mentioned that my Clem H had a lot of flex - and mine even had the high 
top tube!   I can't imagine the L being stiff enough, for the way I like to 
throw a bike around.  And I understand the new ones are longer, wich should 
theoretically exacerbate the problem (remember the trouble 

[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Joe Bernard]

I know, I skipped rims on my list. Fill in the blank! 

Joe "word skipper" Bernard

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 6:31:52 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Yep, the first weight weenie upgrade anyone should do to a bike is wheels 
> and tires. A that mass out there on the ends of the frame making big 
> circles is noticeable; the order is tires, tubes (or ditch them like Leah 
> did on her Platy), spokes, hubs. It's the business! 
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 5:44:54 PM UTC-8 Doug H. wrote:
>
>> Interesting topic that I am enjoying while awaiting my in transit Clem L 
>> 52. They never offered a 55 so I think Laing meant 59. I really like the 
>> looks of the Clem L, more so than the Susie/Gus even, although they both 
>> are cool styles. I never thought much about the weight of a bicycle until I 
>> bought a Wabi single speed that was super light (19 pounds). But, I didn't 
>> really see much of a benefit to that light weight in real world riding. I 
>> do think at some point a bike can be too heavy and I can understand Leah 
>> getting a lighter weight wheelset for hers. I think Joe has written here 
>> somewhere about wheel weight being more noticeable than frame weight and 
>> that makes sense to me. So, I can't help with your decision Kiley but I'd 
>> say you can't go wrong either way.
>> Doug
>> Athens, Ga
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 6:27:32 PM UTC-5 lconley wrote:
>>
>>> I have a 52 Clementine, Large Gus (a heavy duty Susie), 60 Betty Foy. 
>>> The Clementine is by far the easiest to get on and off of, but requires the 
>>> longest stem to get the handlebars high enough. I should have gotten the 55 
>>> Clementine, but it was purchased partly with my girlfriend in mind, who has 
>>> now become my wife and appropriated the Betty Foy, because it is lighter 
>>> and mostly because she loves the red hearts in the blue frame lugs, the 
>>> seat barely clears the top of the seat tube, but she likes the bars up 
>>> high. The Clementine is getting a Crust Clydesdale fork with a long 
>>> threadless steerer and is likely to become my go-to bike once complete. 
>>> Note that I am 65 and overweight, so the step-through becomes more 
>>> important as time goes by. BUT, I also have a Medium Mountain Mixte Rosco 
>>> Bubbe, that is about 90% complete as well as a Rosco Baby that is also 90% 
>>> complete - searching for that perfect step-though!
>>>
>>> Laing
>>> Delray Beach FL
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 5:47:42 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Weight differences between Clem L and Susie: Right off the bat the 
 problem I have here is I didn't have both bikes at the same time so take 
 this for what it's worth (it's not worth much cuz who knows how good my 
 memory is on this??). I've owned a 52cm Clem L and 53cm Susie, both with 
 the the wheels that come on Clem completes, both with similar parts specs. 
 IMO the Susie is slightly lighter but not enough for it to be the decider 
 in which frame you pick. 

 Susie/Wolbis (no, I don't understand the names either) is a more 
 expensive frame with very nice fillet joints and a mid-high toptube, it's 
 probably going to be stiffer than a step-thru for the mountain biking-ish 
 mission it was designed for. This is also helpful for a later electric 
 conversion (Clem L's can get noodly with a motor), plus that higher 
 toptube 
 leaves room for a battery on the downtube. 

 Clem L (I still like the Clementine name better) is much cheaper new, 
 has perfectly acceptable TIG welds, and of course has that way-low toptube 
 (droptube is the moniker I'm trying make trend). And this is where I have 
 to shout out The Word According To Leah, especially as she's in this 
 thread: Droptubes are better! If you don't need the triangulation the 
 Susie 
 offers, Clem L wins hands down for ease of getting on and off, as well 
 sliding off to one foot at stops during the ride. And it's a very pretty 
 bicycle. 

 That's what I think! 

 Joe Bernard

 On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:07:52 PM UTC-8 Bicycle Belle Ding 
 Ding! wrote:

> I am not an expert, but I AM a Clem fan. To be fair, I’ve never ridden 
> a Gus/Susie, but (and don’t hate me, Gus and Susie fans) I’ve never 
> understood the allure of that bike. Looks and names and decals aside 
> though, I wonder if there’s a difference in the frames re: weight. Like 
> you, I’m a thin woman and I don’t want the bike any heavier than it has 
> to 
> be. A friend of mine (also a woman) said she examined the Susie and it 
> was 
> SO heavy. Even compared to her stout Appaloosa and my Clem (which she 
> rode 
> one time). Maybe someone can tell us if there is a significant weight 
> difference between the frames. I think that matters, and I don’t care how 
> many folks jump on here to tell me it doesn’t. And on 

Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Patrick Moore]

On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 6:44 PM Doug H.  wrote:

> ...  I do think at some point a bike can be too heavy and I can understand
> Leah getting a lighter weight wheelset for hers.


For me, of all the non-road-type bikes (perhaps that should read
"non-roadie-type-bikes," because of course you ride Clems on the road) it's
the Clem I'd look at first, largely for its benefits-to-price ratio.

Having said that: I think Grant overbuilds his bikes, and one of 2 reasons
I'd hesitate to buy a Clem is the (to my mind) excessively stout tubes.
(The other reason is tire clearance; we have sand.)

And this for 2 reasons: first, just the heft. Why carry it around if you
don't need it? Second, "planing." I was long a planing skeptic until I had
Chauncey Matthews essentially clone my 2003 road custom. The clone has
thinner walled and narrower gauge tubes, and it did solve a problem I'd
noticed in the background for 17 years: the 2003 often seemed sluggish
compared to the 1999 road custom that it was copied from. Sometimes my left
quad would ache when seated and pushing the crank for extended periods
(fixed gear, against wind or up inclines). The Chauncey clone
*immediately* felt
faster -- or rather, easier to sit and pedal -- up hills and against
headwinds; I don't get that "bogging down" feeling and my quad doesn't
start hurting.

So, for simple absence of unneeded weight, and also for "planing." As for
the stoutness being unneeded: for decades I've ridden far thinner-tubed
bikes with heavy rear loads, without any problems whatsoever. (The key is a
stiff rack.) The best rear load carrier I ever owned was a 1973 racing
frameset of really light standard gauge 531 -- I recall hefting it upon
receipt, and being disappointed that it was so much lighter than my 2003
Riv frameset -- I wanted the nicer bike to be lighter. But I regularly
carried loads up to 45 lb on the rear, and more moderate (20-25) loads much
more frequently along longer distances across bad pavement on 29 mm tires.
I'm 170 without any accessories, not heavy but no flyweight. The bike is
still in service, I think, under yet another owner, Eric "CampyOnly" Norris
of this list, and he's a mega-miler.

Still, I haven't taken a Clem off my "eventually" list.

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Joe Bernard]

Yep, the first weight weenie upgrade anyone should do to a bike is wheels 
and tires. A that mass out there on the ends of the frame making big 
circles is noticeable; the order is tires, tubes (or ditch them like Leah 
did on her Platy), spokes, hubs. It's the business! 



On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 5:44:54 PM UTC-8 Doug H. wrote:

> Interesting topic that I am enjoying while awaiting my in transit Clem L 
> 52. They never offered a 55 so I think Laing meant 59. I really like the 
> looks of the Clem L, more so than the Susie/Gus even, although they both 
> are cool styles. I never thought much about the weight of a bicycle until I 
> bought a Wabi single speed that was super light (19 pounds). But, I didn't 
> really see much of a benefit to that light weight in real world riding. I 
> do think at some point a bike can be too heavy and I can understand Leah 
> getting a lighter weight wheelset for hers. I think Joe has written here 
> somewhere about wheel weight being more noticeable than frame weight and 
> that makes sense to me. So, I can't help with your decision Kiley but I'd 
> say you can't go wrong either way.
> Doug
> Athens, Ga
>
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 6:27:32 PM UTC-5 lconley wrote:
>
>> I have a 52 Clementine, Large Gus (a heavy duty Susie), 60 Betty Foy. The 
>> Clementine is by far the easiest to get on and off of, but requires the 
>> longest stem to get the handlebars high enough. I should have gotten the 55 
>> Clementine, but it was purchased partly with my girlfriend in mind, who has 
>> now become my wife and appropriated the Betty Foy, because it is lighter 
>> and mostly because she loves the red hearts in the blue frame lugs, the 
>> seat barely clears the top of the seat tube, but she likes the bars up 
>> high. The Clementine is getting a Crust Clydesdale fork with a long 
>> threadless steerer and is likely to become my go-to bike once complete. 
>> Note that I am 65 and overweight, so the step-through becomes more 
>> important as time goes by. BUT, I also have a Medium Mountain Mixte Rosco 
>> Bubbe, that is about 90% complete as well as a Rosco Baby that is also 90% 
>> complete - searching for that perfect step-though!
>>
>> Laing
>> Delray Beach FL
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 5:47:42 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Weight differences between Clem L and Susie: Right off the bat the 
>>> problem I have here is I didn't have both bikes at the same time so take 
>>> this for what it's worth (it's not worth much cuz who knows how good my 
>>> memory is on this??). I've owned a 52cm Clem L and 53cm Susie, both with 
>>> the the wheels that come on Clem completes, both with similar parts specs. 
>>> IMO the Susie is slightly lighter but not enough for it to be the decider 
>>> in which frame you pick. 
>>>
>>> Susie/Wolbis (no, I don't understand the names either) is a more 
>>> expensive frame with very nice fillet joints and a mid-high toptube, it's 
>>> probably going to be stiffer than a step-thru for the mountain biking-ish 
>>> mission it was designed for. This is also helpful for a later electric 
>>> conversion (Clem L's can get noodly with a motor), plus that higher toptube 
>>> leaves room for a battery on the downtube. 
>>>
>>> Clem L (I still like the Clementine name better) is much cheaper new, 
>>> has perfectly acceptable TIG welds, and of course has that way-low toptube 
>>> (droptube is the moniker I'm trying make trend). And this is where I have 
>>> to shout out The Word According To Leah, especially as she's in this 
>>> thread: Droptubes are better! If you don't need the triangulation the Susie 
>>> offers, Clem L wins hands down for ease of getting on and off, as well 
>>> sliding off to one foot at stops during the ride. And it's a very pretty 
>>> bicycle. 
>>>
>>> That's what I think! 
>>>
>>> Joe Bernard
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:07:52 PM UTC-8 Bicycle Belle Ding 
>>> Ding! wrote:
>>>
 I am not an expert, but I AM a Clem fan. To be fair, I’ve never ridden 
 a Gus/Susie, but (and don’t hate me, Gus and Susie fans) I’ve never 
 understood the allure of that bike. Looks and names and decals aside 
 though, I wonder if there’s a difference in the frames re: weight. Like 
 you, I’m a thin woman and I don’t want the bike any heavier than it has to 
 be. A friend of mine (also a woman) said she examined the Susie and it was 
 SO heavy. Even compared to her stout Appaloosa and my Clem (which she rode 
 one time). Maybe someone can tell us if there is a significant weight 
 difference between the frames. I think that matters, and I don’t care how 
 many folks jump on here to tell me it doesn’t. And on that note, the Clems 
 are heavy enough that I think they benefit from lightening up. I put a 
 lightweight wheelset and tubeless tires on mine, plus aluminum bars. If I 
 could do it over, I’d gear it as a 1x, and save the extra weight from the 
 

[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Doug H.]

Interesting topic that I am enjoying while awaiting my in transit Clem L 
52. They never offered a 55 so I think Laing meant 59. I really like the 
looks of the Clem L, more so than the Susie/Gus even, although they both 
are cool styles. I never thought much about the weight of a bicycle until I 
bought a Wabi single speed that was super light (19 pounds). But, I didn't 
really see much of a benefit to that light weight in real world riding. I 
do think at some point a bike can be too heavy and I can understand Leah 
getting a lighter weight wheelset for hers. I think Joe has written here 
somewhere about wheel weight being more noticeable than frame weight and 
that makes sense to me. So, I can't help with your decision Kiley but I'd 
say you can't go wrong either way.
Doug
Athens, Ga

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 6:27:32 PM UTC-5 lconley wrote:

> I have a 52 Clementine, Large Gus (a heavy duty Susie), 60 Betty Foy. The 
> Clementine is by far the easiest to get on and off of, but requires the 
> longest stem to get the handlebars high enough. I should have gotten the 55 
> Clementine, but it was purchased partly with my girlfriend in mind, who has 
> now become my wife and appropriated the Betty Foy, because it is lighter 
> and mostly because she loves the red hearts in the blue frame lugs, the 
> seat barely clears the top of the seat tube, but she likes the bars up 
> high. The Clementine is getting a Crust Clydesdale fork with a long 
> threadless steerer and is likely to become my go-to bike once complete. 
> Note that I am 65 and overweight, so the step-through becomes more 
> important as time goes by. BUT, I also have a Medium Mountain Mixte Rosco 
> Bubbe, that is about 90% complete as well as a Rosco Baby that is also 90% 
> complete - searching for that perfect step-though!
>
> Laing
> Delray Beach FL
>
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 5:47:42 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Weight differences between Clem L and Susie: Right off the bat the 
>> problem I have here is I didn't have both bikes at the same time so take 
>> this for what it's worth (it's not worth much cuz who knows how good my 
>> memory is on this??). I've owned a 52cm Clem L and 53cm Susie, both with 
>> the the wheels that come on Clem completes, both with similar parts specs. 
>> IMO the Susie is slightly lighter but not enough for it to be the decider 
>> in which frame you pick. 
>>
>> Susie/Wolbis (no, I don't understand the names either) is a more 
>> expensive frame with very nice fillet joints and a mid-high toptube, it's 
>> probably going to be stiffer than a step-thru for the mountain biking-ish 
>> mission it was designed for. This is also helpful for a later electric 
>> conversion (Clem L's can get noodly with a motor), plus that higher toptube 
>> leaves room for a battery on the downtube. 
>>
>> Clem L (I still like the Clementine name better) is much cheaper new, has 
>> perfectly acceptable TIG welds, and of course has that way-low toptube 
>> (droptube is the moniker I'm trying make trend). And this is where I have 
>> to shout out The Word According To Leah, especially as she's in this 
>> thread: Droptubes are better! If you don't need the triangulation the Susie 
>> offers, Clem L wins hands down for ease of getting on and off, as well 
>> sliding off to one foot at stops during the ride. And it's a very pretty 
>> bicycle. 
>>
>> That's what I think! 
>>
>> Joe Bernard
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:07:52 PM UTC-8 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am not an expert, but I AM a Clem fan. To be fair, I’ve never ridden a 
>>> Gus/Susie, but (and don’t hate me, Gus and Susie fans) I’ve never 
>>> understood the allure of that bike. Looks and names and decals aside 
>>> though, I wonder if there’s a difference in the frames re: weight. Like 
>>> you, I’m a thin woman and I don’t want the bike any heavier than it has to 
>>> be. A friend of mine (also a woman) said she examined the Susie and it was 
>>> SO heavy. Even compared to her stout Appaloosa and my Clem (which she rode 
>>> one time). Maybe someone can tell us if there is a significant weight 
>>> difference between the frames. I think that matters, and I don’t care how 
>>> many folks jump on here to tell me it doesn’t. And on that note, the Clems 
>>> are heavy enough that I think they benefit from lightening up. I put a 
>>> lightweight wheelset and tubeless tires on mine, plus aluminum bars. If I 
>>> could do it over, I’d gear it as a 1x, and save the extra weight from the 
>>> shifter/derailleur and chain ring.
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, the Clem’s personality. It is a gentle giant. It is elegant. 
>>> It is LONG. But honestly, I like how I feel on that bike even a bit better 
>>> than my Platypus (which is still my #1 bike because it is RASPBERRY SPARKLE 
>>> and I am fickle). The length is a problem if you need to get it on public 
>>> transportation or if you are storing it in your tiny living room. You will 
>>> need a long 

[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[lconley]

I have a 52 Clementine, Large Gus (a heavy duty Susie), 60 Betty Foy. The 
Clementine is by far the easiest to get on and off of, but requires the 
longest stem to get the handlebars high enough. I should have gotten the 55 
Clementine, but it was purchased partly with my girlfriend in mind, who has 
now become my wife and appropriated the Betty Foy, because it is lighter 
and mostly because she loves the red hearts in the blue frame lugs, the 
seat barely clears the top of the seat tube, but she likes the bars up 
high. The Clementine is getting a Crust Clydesdale fork with a long 
threadless steerer and is likely to become my go-to bike once complete. 
Note that I am 65 and overweight, so the step-through becomes more 
important as time goes by. BUT, I also have a Medium Mountain Mixte Rosco 
Bubbe, that is about 90% complete as well as a Rosco Baby that is also 90% 
complete - searching for that perfect step-though!

Laing
Delray Beach FL

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 5:47:42 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Weight differences between Clem L and Susie: Right off the bat the problem 
> I have here is I didn't have both bikes at the same time so take this for 
> what it's worth (it's not worth much cuz who knows how good my memory is on 
> this??). I've owned a 52cm Clem L and 53cm Susie, both with the the wheels 
> that come on Clem completes, both with similar parts specs. IMO the Susie 
> is slightly lighter but not enough for it to be the decider in which frame 
> you pick. 
>
> Susie/Wolbis (no, I don't understand the names either) is a more expensive 
> frame with very nice fillet joints and a mid-high toptube, it's probably 
> going to be stiffer than a step-thru for the mountain biking-ish mission it 
> was designed for. This is also helpful for a later electric conversion 
> (Clem L's can get noodly with a motor), plus that higher toptube leaves 
> room for a battery on the downtube. 
>
> Clem L (I still like the Clementine name better) is much cheaper new, has 
> perfectly acceptable TIG welds, and of course has that way-low toptube 
> (droptube is the moniker I'm trying make trend). And this is where I have 
> to shout out The Word According To Leah, especially as she's in this 
> thread: Droptubes are better! If you don't need the triangulation the Susie 
> offers, Clem L wins hands down for ease of getting on and off, as well 
> sliding off to one foot at stops during the ride. And it's a very pretty 
> bicycle. 
>
> That's what I think! 
>
> Joe Bernard
>
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:07:52 PM UTC-8 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>
>> I am not an expert, but I AM a Clem fan. To be fair, I’ve never ridden a 
>> Gus/Susie, but (and don’t hate me, Gus and Susie fans) I’ve never 
>> understood the allure of that bike. Looks and names and decals aside 
>> though, I wonder if there’s a difference in the frames re: weight. Like 
>> you, I’m a thin woman and I don’t want the bike any heavier than it has to 
>> be. A friend of mine (also a woman) said she examined the Susie and it was 
>> SO heavy. Even compared to her stout Appaloosa and my Clem (which she rode 
>> one time). Maybe someone can tell us if there is a significant weight 
>> difference between the frames. I think that matters, and I don’t care how 
>> many folks jump on here to tell me it doesn’t. And on that note, the Clems 
>> are heavy enough that I think they benefit from lightening up. I put a 
>> lightweight wheelset and tubeless tires on mine, plus aluminum bars. If I 
>> could do it over, I’d gear it as a 1x, and save the extra weight from the 
>> shifter/derailleur and chain ring.
>>
>> Meanwhile, the Clem’s personality. It is a gentle giant. It is elegant. 
>> It is LONG. But honestly, I like how I feel on that bike even a bit better 
>> than my Platypus (which is still my #1 bike because it is RASPBERRY SPARKLE 
>> and I am fickle). The length is a problem if you need to get it on public 
>> transportation or if you are storing it in your tiny living room. You will 
>> need a long wheelbase bar for your vehicle bike rack. But that length also 
>> (I think) makes it such a great riding bike. You feel like you sit down and 
>> in it. I don’t like my Clem with a front rack; I think it rides better with 
>> a rear rack. You will never regret a step-through. The Clem, in my never 
>> humble opinion, is unimprovable. 
>>
>> YIKES! I’m late to pick up my kid from school! Ok, good luck
>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:08:51 PM UTC-8 Kiley Demond wrote:
>>
>>> This has probably been hashed over numerous times so at the risk of 
>>> making some of you go "arg!"...
>>>
>>> What are the differences of note between Clem L. and Susie W.? 
>>>
>>>- Handling (stability, nimbleness)
>>>- Wieldy-ness (overall size, weight, etc.)
>>>- Suitability for electrifying at a future date
>>>- Any other thoughts, whether experiential or theoretical
>>>
>>> The person asking is 5'10" 140lbs with a pbh of 91. I had 

[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Joe Bernard]

Weight differences between Clem L and Susie: Right off the bat the problem 
I have here is I didn't have both bikes at the same time so take this for 
what it's worth (it's not worth much cuz who knows how good my memory is on 
this??). I've owned a 52cm Clem L and 53cm Susie, both with the the wheels 
that come on Clem completes, both with similar parts specs. IMO the Susie 
is slightly lighter but not enough for it to be the decider in which frame 
you pick. 

Susie/Wolbis (no, I don't understand the names either) is a more expensive 
frame with very nice fillet joints and a mid-high toptube, it's probably 
going to be stiffer than a step-thru for the mountain biking-ish mission it 
was designed for. This is also helpful for a later electric conversion 
(Clem L's can get noodly with a motor), plus that higher toptube leaves 
room for a battery on the downtube. 

Clem L (I still like the Clementine name better) is much cheaper new, has 
perfectly acceptable TIG welds, and of course has that way-low toptube 
(droptube is the moniker I'm trying make trend). And this is where I have 
to shout out The Word According To Leah, especially as she's in this 
thread: Droptubes are better! If you don't need the triangulation the Susie 
offers, Clem L wins hands down for ease of getting on and off, as well 
sliding off to one foot at stops during the ride. And it's a very pretty 
bicycle. 

That's what I think! 

Joe Bernard

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:07:52 PM UTC-8 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> I am not an expert, but I AM a Clem fan. To be fair, I’ve never ridden a 
> Gus/Susie, but (and don’t hate me, Gus and Susie fans) I’ve never 
> understood the allure of that bike. Looks and names and decals aside 
> though, I wonder if there’s a difference in the frames re: weight. Like 
> you, I’m a thin woman and I don’t want the bike any heavier than it has to 
> be. A friend of mine (also a woman) said she examined the Susie and it was 
> SO heavy. Even compared to her stout Appaloosa and my Clem (which she rode 
> one time). Maybe someone can tell us if there is a significant weight 
> difference between the frames. I think that matters, and I don’t care how 
> many folks jump on here to tell me it doesn’t. And on that note, the Clems 
> are heavy enough that I think they benefit from lightening up. I put a 
> lightweight wheelset and tubeless tires on mine, plus aluminum bars. If I 
> could do it over, I’d gear it as a 1x, and save the extra weight from the 
> shifter/derailleur and chain ring.
>
> Meanwhile, the Clem’s personality. It is a gentle giant. It is elegant. It 
> is LONG. But honestly, I like how I feel on that bike even a bit better 
> than my Platypus (which is still my #1 bike because it is RASPBERRY SPARKLE 
> and I am fickle). The length is a problem if you need to get it on public 
> transportation or if you are storing it in your tiny living room. You will 
> need a long wheelbase bar for your vehicle bike rack. But that length also 
> (I think) makes it such a great riding bike. You feel like you sit down and 
> in it. I don’t like my Clem with a front rack; I think it rides better with 
> a rear rack. You will never regret a step-through. The Clem, in my never 
> humble opinion, is unimprovable. 
>
> YIKES! I’m late to pick up my kid from school! Ok, good luck
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:08:51 PM UTC-8 Kiley Demond wrote:
>
>> This has probably been hashed over numerous times so at the risk of 
>> making some of you go "arg!"...
>>
>> What are the differences of note between Clem L. and Susie W.? 
>>
>>- Handling (stability, nimbleness)
>>- Wieldy-ness (overall size, weight, etc.)
>>- Suitability for electrifying at a future date
>>- Any other thoughts, whether experiential or theoretical
>>
>> The person asking is 5'10" 140lbs with a pbh of 91. I had a 60cm Cheviot 
>> which I loved but sold several years ago when financial issues overrode 
>> having such a fancy ride. I would prefer to buy a frame only and do the 
>> build myself. I was gutted when I saw that an orange Susie W. frame was 
>> listed (and sold); I wasn't paying sufficient attention. I "won" the 
>> right-to-purchase lottery for a Clem but couldn't do it because they were 
>> sold as complete and I hadn't done my due diligence on Susie Ws.
>>
>> Thank you for your collective insights and wisdom!
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I am not an expert, but I AM a Clem fan. To be fair, I’ve never ridden a 
Gus/Susie, but (and don’t hate me, Gus and Susie fans) I’ve never 
understood the allure of that bike. Looks and names and decals aside 
though, I wonder if there’s a difference in the frames re: weight. Like 
you, I’m a thin woman and I don’t want the bike any heavier than it has to 
be. A friend of mine (also a woman) said she examined the Susie and it was 
SO heavy. Even compared to her stout Appaloosa and my Clem (which she rode 
one time). Maybe someone can tell us if there is a significant weight 
difference between the frames. I think that matters, and I don’t care how 
many folks jump on here to tell me it doesn’t. And on that note, the Clems 
are heavy enough that I think they benefit from lightening up. I put a 
lightweight wheelset and tubeless tires on mine, plus aluminum bars. If I 
could do it over, I’d gear it as a 1x, and save the extra weight from the 
shifter/derailleur and chain ring.

Meanwhile, the Clem’s personality. It is a gentle giant. It is elegant. It 
is LONG. But honestly, I like how I feel on that bike even a bit better 
than my Platypus (which is still my #1 bike because it is RASPBERRY SPARKLE 
and I am fickle). The length is a problem if you need to get it on public 
transportation or if you are storing it in your tiny living room. You will 
need a long wheelbase bar for your vehicle bike rack. But that length also 
(I think) makes it such a great riding bike. You feel like you sit down and 
in it. I don’t like my Clem with a front rack; I think it rides better with 
a rear rack. You will never regret a step-through. The Clem, in my never 
humble opinion, is unimprovable. 

YIKES! I’m late to pick up my kid from school! Ok, good luck
On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:08:51 PM UTC-8 Kiley Demond wrote:

> This has probably been hashed over numerous times so at the risk of making 
> some of you go "arg!"...
>
> What are the differences of note between Clem L. and Susie W.? 
>
>- Handling (stability, nimbleness)
>- Wieldy-ness (overall size, weight, etc.)
>- Suitability for electrifying at a future date
>- Any other thoughts, whether experiential or theoretical
>
> The person asking is 5'10" 140lbs with a pbh of 91. I had a 60cm Cheviot 
> which I loved but sold several years ago when financial issues overrode 
> having such a fancy ride. I would prefer to buy a frame only and do the 
> build myself. I was gutted when I saw that an orange Susie W. frame was 
> listed (and sold); I wasn't paying sufficient attention. I "won" the 
> right-to-purchase lottery for a Clem but couldn't do it because they were 
> sold as complete and I hadn't done my due diligence on Susie Ws.
>
> Thank you for your collective insights and wisdom!
>

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