[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Mark Roland]

Yes, using a cable stop mounted at the fork is a very well known fix 
 
to eliminate the "bow" affect of a long cable run from the stem cable stop 
to the cable hanger that can be a source of judder. 

On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 4:26:58 PM UTC-4, Ashwath Akirekadu wrote:
>
> This might be tangential, but here's an observation I made recently while 
> playing with Canti brakes.  When the cable stop is mounted on the stem (ie 
> farther from the brakes), the setup becomes more squeak-prone as compared 
> to a fork mounted cable stop.   I was intrigued and changed around the 
> cable stop a couple of times without changing anything else with the 
> brakes.  It squeaked repeatedly more with stem-mounted.  I can probably 
> reduce the sound or even eliminate with better toe-in pad adjustment, but 
> the bottom line is fork-mounted cable stop setup is more forgiving.
>
> On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 at 13:03:06 UTC-7 S wrote:
>
>> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>>
>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
>> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
>> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
>> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
>> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>
>> And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
>> work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles 
>>> on cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
>>> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
>>> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
>>> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
>>> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
>>> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
>>> only changes:
>>>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
>>> each other and to the straddle hanger
>>>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>>>
>>> Laing
>>> Delray Beach FL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:

 Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
 well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
 https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/

 I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big 
 difference. 

 I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
 lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
 advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
 calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
 nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
 find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
 On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:

> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes 
> from 
> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get 
> that 
> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set 
> up 
> the way they are supposed to be set up.
>
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn 
> NY wrote:
>>
>> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant 
>> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
>> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
>> compresses less as a result."
>> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
>> Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. 
>> Currently 
>> all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
>> spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
>> -Kai
>>
>> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:
>>
>>> I will also throw 

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[S]

Actually, wow, re-reading it, I am misrepresenting that quote, I thought he 
was saying something different and overlayed my own point on top of it. 
That's what I get for responding too quickly. Ugh. I apologize. 
On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:08:41 PM UTC-7 S wrote:

> Anyway, I should have just linked Sheldon, whose descriptions and advice 
> are always the best: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:02:40 PM UTC-7 S wrote:
>
>> Maybe we are talking past each other or interpreting that passage 
>> differently? To me, the point is not about pad angle, but arm/wire angle. 
>> You want a good arm/wire angle at the point where the pad contacts the rim 
>> and washers can help you achieve this. For instance, keeping all else 
>> equal, if you use fewer washers, the pad starts farther away from the rim, 
>> hence the arm needs to swing farther in for the pad to contact the rim, 
>> increasing the arm/wire angle and decreasing mechanical advantage. I think 
>> this is easiest to visualize with V-brakes, as the wire remains horizontal. 
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 1:29:38 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>>
>>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the 
>>> brake pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the 
>>> pad hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the 
>>> brake loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 
>>> 90 degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>>
>>> Geometrically this is just plain false. The brake pads have spherical 
>>> washers that allow, within limits, the brake pad to be perpendicular to the 
>>> rim whether the arm is slanted in or out or perpendicular. The geometry of 
>>> the pad to the rim to the pivot point is constant. The pad is ALWAYS headed 
>>> in a downward arc relative to the rim because braze on pivot point is 
>>> outward of and below the rim surface, even when the brake pad post to brake 
>>> arm attachment point is moving up.
>>> Pretend the braze on pivot point is the hub of a very tiny wheel to the 
>>> right and down from the braking surface. As the tiny wheel rotates 
>>> counterclockwise, the spokes on the left rotate down as the spokes on the 
>>> right rotate up.
>>>
>>> Laing
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 4:03:06 PM UTC-4, S wrote:

 I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":

 "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the 
 brake pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the 
 pad hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the 
 brake loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 
 90 degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."

 And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
 work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
 On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:

> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles 
> on cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or 
> even 
> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
> only changes:
>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points 
> to each other and to the straddle hanger
>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>
> Laing
> Delray Beach FL
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>
>> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
>> well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
>> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>>
>> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big 
>> difference. 
>>
>> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or 
>> perceived lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater 
>> mechanical advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers 
>> than 
>> cantis or calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to 
>> lighten 
>> up, I nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no 
>> problems. I find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>>
>>> I question the notion that these 

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[lconley]

The article claims that the relative motion of the pad to the rim can be 
changed by altering the distance of the pad to the brake arm with washers. 
This is false. The relative motion of the pad to the rim is fixed by the 
fixed relative location of the brake pivot to the rim. It does not matter 
how many washers are used, nor whether the brake is a V-brake or a 
cantilever. The changes that result from adding or subtracting washers or 
changing from V-brake to cantilever are real, but they are not because the 
relative motion of the pad to the rim is changed, because it cannot changed 
without moving the braze on. 
The frame design/build can greatly alter the effectiveness of the brakes - 
the closer the brake pivot is to the rim, the greater the mechanical 
advantage can be, up to the point that the brake post bottoms out in the 
slot. 

Laing



On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 5:02:40 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>
> Maybe we are talking past each other or interpreting that passage 
> differently? To me, the point is not about pad angle, but arm/wire angle. 
> You want a good arm/wire angle at the point where the pad contacts the rim 
> and washers can help you achieve this. For instance, keeping all else 
> equal, if you use fewer washers, the pad starts farther away from the rim, 
> hence the arm needs to swing farther in for the pad to contact the rim, 
> increasing the arm/wire angle and decreasing mechanical advantage. I think 
> this is easiest to visualize with V-brakes, as the wire remains horizontal. 
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 1:29:38 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>
>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
>> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
>> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
>> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
>> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>
>> Geometrically this is just plain false. The brake pads have spherical 
>> washers that allow, within limits, the brake pad to be perpendicular to the 
>> rim whether the arm is slanted in or out or perpendicular. The geometry of 
>> the pad to the rim to the pivot point is constant. The pad is ALWAYS headed 
>> in a downward arc relative to the rim because braze on pivot point is 
>> outward of and below the rim surface, even when the brake pad post to brake 
>> arm attachment point is moving up.
>> Pretend the braze on pivot point is the hub of a very tiny wheel to the 
>> right and down from the braking surface. As the tiny wheel rotates 
>> counterclockwise, the spokes on the left rotate down as the spokes on the 
>> right rotate up.
>>
>> Laing
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 4:03:06 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>>>
>>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the 
>>> brake pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the 
>>> pad hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the 
>>> brake loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 
>>> 90 degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>>
>>> And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
>>> work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>>>
 Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles 
 on cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
 point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
 distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
 to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
 brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
 regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
 only changes:
  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points 
 to each other and to the straddle hanger
  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.

 Laing
 Delray Beach FL


 On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>
> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
> well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>
> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big 
> difference. 
>
> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or 
> perceived lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater 
> mechanical advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers 
> than 
> cantis or calipers. When I 

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[S]

Anyway, I should have just linked Sheldon, whose descriptions and advice 
are always the best: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html


On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:02:40 PM UTC-7 S wrote:

> Maybe we are talking past each other or interpreting that passage 
> differently? To me, the point is not about pad angle, but arm/wire angle. 
> You want a good arm/wire angle at the point where the pad contacts the rim 
> and washers can help you achieve this. For instance, keeping all else 
> equal, if you use fewer washers, the pad starts farther away from the rim, 
> hence the arm needs to swing farther in for the pad to contact the rim, 
> increasing the arm/wire angle and decreasing mechanical advantage. I think 
> this is easiest to visualize with V-brakes, as the wire remains horizontal. 
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 1:29:38 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>
>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
>> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
>> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
>> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
>> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>
>> Geometrically this is just plain false. The brake pads have spherical 
>> washers that allow, within limits, the brake pad to be perpendicular to the 
>> rim whether the arm is slanted in or out or perpendicular. The geometry of 
>> the pad to the rim to the pivot point is constant. The pad is ALWAYS headed 
>> in a downward arc relative to the rim because braze on pivot point is 
>> outward of and below the rim surface, even when the brake pad post to brake 
>> arm attachment point is moving up.
>> Pretend the braze on pivot point is the hub of a very tiny wheel to the 
>> right and down from the braking surface. As the tiny wheel rotates 
>> counterclockwise, the spokes on the left rotate down as the spokes on the 
>> right rotate up.
>>
>> Laing
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 4:03:06 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>>>
>>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the 
>>> brake pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the 
>>> pad hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the 
>>> brake loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 
>>> 90 degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>>
>>> And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
>>> work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>>>
 Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles 
 on cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
 point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
 distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
 to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
 brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
 regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
 only changes:
  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points 
 to each other and to the straddle hanger
  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.

 Laing
 Delray Beach FL


 On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>
> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
> well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>
> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big 
> difference. 
>
> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or 
> perceived lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater 
> mechanical advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers 
> than 
> cantis or calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to 
> lighten 
> up, I nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no 
> problems. I find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>
>> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
>> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes 
>> from 
>> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. 
>> Stops 
>> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
>> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
>> 

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[S]

Maybe we are talking past each other or interpreting that passage 
differently? To me, the point is not about pad angle, but arm/wire angle. 
You want a good arm/wire angle at the point where the pad contacts the rim 
and washers can help you achieve this. For instance, keeping all else 
equal, if you use fewer washers, the pad starts farther away from the rim, 
hence the arm needs to swing farther in for the pad to contact the rim, 
increasing the arm/wire angle and decreasing mechanical advantage. I think 
this is easiest to visualize with V-brakes, as the wire remains horizontal. 

On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 1:29:38 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:

> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>
> Geometrically this is just plain false. The brake pads have spherical 
> washers that allow, within limits, the brake pad to be perpendicular to the 
> rim whether the arm is slanted in or out or perpendicular. The geometry of 
> the pad to the rim to the pivot point is constant. The pad is ALWAYS headed 
> in a downward arc relative to the rim because braze on pivot point is 
> outward of and below the rim surface, even when the brake pad post to brake 
> arm attachment point is moving up.
> Pretend the braze on pivot point is the hub of a very tiny wheel to the 
> right and down from the braking surface. As the tiny wheel rotates 
> counterclockwise, the spokes on the left rotate down as the spokes on the 
> right rotate up.
>
> Laing
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 4:03:06 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>
>> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>>
>> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
>> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
>> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
>> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
>> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>>
>> And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
>> work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles 
>>> on cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
>>> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
>>> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
>>> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
>>> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
>>> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
>>> only changes:
>>>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
>>> each other and to the straddle hanger
>>>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>>>
>>> Laing
>>> Delray Beach FL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:

 Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
 well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
 https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/

 I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big 
 difference. 

 I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
 lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
 advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
 calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
 nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
 find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
 On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:

> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes 
> from 
> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get 
> that 
> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set 
> up 
> 

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Nick Payne]

On Thursday, 22 October 2020 07:03:06 UTC+11, S wrote:
>
> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>
> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>

The second part of this description (that the angle of the arm can somehow 
promote the pad diving under the rim) is garbage. The geometry of the 
pad/rim interface relative to the brake pivot point doesn't change 
regardless of what path you follow between the two. It's just as much 
woolly thinking as the PMP cranks from the 1980s, that were supposed to 
eliminate TDC and BDC when pedalling:




Nick

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/a183036d-8cea-43ee-ba82-9025c4cca196o%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[lconley]

"I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."

Geometrically this is just plain false. The brake pads have spherical 
washers that allow, within limits, the brake pad to be perpendicular to the 
rim whether the arm is slanted in or out or perpendicular. The geometry of 
the pad to the rim to the pivot point is constant. The pad is ALWAYS headed 
in a downward arc relative to the rim because braze on pivot point is 
outward of and below the rim surface, even when the brake pad post to brake 
arm attachment point is moving up.
Pretend the braze on pivot point is the hub of a very tiny wheel to the 
right and down from the braking surface. As the tiny wheel rotates 
counterclockwise, the spokes on the left rotate down as the spokes on the 
right rotate up.

Laing

On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 4:03:06 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>
> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>
> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>
> And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
> work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>
>> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles on 
>> cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
>> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
>> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
>> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
>> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
>> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
>> only changes:
>>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
>> each other and to the straddle hanger
>>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>>
>> Laing
>> Delray Beach FL
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>>
>>> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
>>> well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
>>> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>>>
>>> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big difference. 
>>>
>>> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
>>> lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
>>> advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
>>> calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
>>> nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
>>> find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>>>
 I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
 advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes 
 from 
 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
 like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
 compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
 tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
 people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
 technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
 shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set 
 up 
 the way they are supposed to be set up.


 On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn 
 NY wrote:
>
> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant 
> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
> compresses less as a result."
> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
> Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. 
> Currently 
> all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
> spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
> -Kai
>
> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 

Re: [RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Eric Daume]

Yeah, but Mark you like DC750 brakes as well, so your views are pretty
suspect :)

Eric
V brake fan

On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 11:59 AM Mark Roland 
wrote:

> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant
> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes from
> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops
> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and
> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping
> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that
> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal
> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic
> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set up
> the way they are supposed to be set up.
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY
> wrote:
>>
>> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant benefits
>> to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the cable is
>> under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing compresses
>> less as a result."
>> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid
>> Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently
>> all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I
>> spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
>> -Kai
>>
>> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:
>>
>>> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can live
>>> with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with a
>>> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant
>>> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the
>>> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing
>>> compresses less as a result.
>>>
>>> Daniel M
>>> Berkeley, CA
>>>
>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/199239c8-ea16-46de-921f-8f90ae1e385fo%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CAHFNW5ANgN%2BRWBJ1hZG1uhyzi73hrWZhX1yT_Tdkt1Rh1EvYqA%40mail.gmail.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Ash]

This might be tangential, but here's an observation I made recently while 
playing with Canti brakes.  When the cable stop is mounted on the stem (ie 
farther from the brakes), the setup becomes more squeak-prone as compared 
to a fork mounted cable stop.   I was intrigued and changed around the 
cable stop a couple of times without changing anything else with the 
brakes.  It squeaked repeatedly more with stem-mounted.  I can probably 
reduce the sound or even eliminate with better toe-in pad adjustment, but 
the bottom line is fork-mounted cable stop setup is more forgiving.

On Wednesday, 21 October 2020 at 13:03:06 UTC-7 S wrote:

> I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":
>
> "I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
> pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
> hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
> loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
> degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."
>
> And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
> work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:
>
>> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles on 
>> cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
>> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
>> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
>> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
>> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
>> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
>> only changes:
>>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
>> each other and to the straddle hanger
>>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>>
>> Laing
>> Delray Beach FL
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>>
>>> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work 
>>> well when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
>>> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>>>
>>> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big difference. 
>>>
>>> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
>>> lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
>>> advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
>>> calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
>>> nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
>>> find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
>>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>>>
 I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
 advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes 
 from 
 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
 like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
 compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
 tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
 people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
 technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
 shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set 
 up 
 the way they are supposed to be set up.


 On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn 
 NY wrote:
>
> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant 
> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
> compresses less as a result."
> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
> Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. 
> Currently 
> all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
> spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
> -Kai
>
> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:
>
>> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can 
>> live with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go 
>> with a 
>> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
>> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
>> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
>> compresses less as a result. 
>>
>> Daniel M
>> Berkeley, CA
>>

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[S]

I don't see how this general idea is wrong or "misinformation":

"I try to make this slotted part of the arm be perpendicular to the brake 
pad post when the pad contacts the rim.  Why?  Because this lets the pad 
hit the rim as squarely as possible.  Too far past 90 degrees and the brake 
loses power (especially true with v-brakes) and when the arm is past 90 
degrees, it’s on its way to promoting the pad diving under the rim."

And the relative position of the straddle cable is key to making cantis 
work. So anything that affects that, including washers, is important. 
On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 12:16:49 PM UTC-7 lconley wrote:

> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles on 
> cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
> only changes:
>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
> each other and to the straddle hanger
>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>
> Laing
> Delray Beach FL
>
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>
>> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work well 
>> when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
>> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>>
>> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big difference. 
>>
>> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
>> lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
>> advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
>> calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
>> nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
>> find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>>
>>> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
>>> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes from 
>>> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
>>> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
>>> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
>>> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
>>> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
>>> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
>>> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set up 
>>> the way they are supposed to be set up.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn 
>>> NY wrote:

 Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant 
 benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
 cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
 compresses less as a result."
 That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
 Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently 
 all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
 spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
 -Kai

 On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:

> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can 
> live with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with 
> a 
> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
> compresses less as a result. 
>
> Daniel M
> Berkeley, CA
>


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/05b8bd78-51c4-4460-b2c0-f4c68f49872an%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[lconley]

and 
 3. the relative location of the straddle cable cable attachment points to 
the brake pad rim contact point.

On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 3:16:49 PM UTC-4, lconley wrote:
>
> Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles on 
> cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
> point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
> distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
> to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
> brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
> regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
> only changes:
>  1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
> each other and to the straddle hanger
>  2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.
>
> Laing
> Delray Beach FL
>
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>>
>> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work well 
>> when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
>> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>>
>> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big difference. 
>>
>> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
>> lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
>> advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
>> calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
>> nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
>> find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
>> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>>
>>> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
>>> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes from 
>>> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
>>> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
>>> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
>>> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
>>> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
>>> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
>>> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set up 
>>> the way they are supposed to be set up.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn 
>>> NY wrote:

 Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant 
 benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
 cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
 compresses less as a result."
 That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
 Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently 
 all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
 spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
 -Kai

 On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:

> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can 
> live with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with 
> a 
> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
> compresses less as a result. 
>
> Daniel M
> Berkeley, CA
>


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8d9a2c14-e5f6-4b96-b467-6d658724f238o%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[lconley]

Sorry, but that article is full of misinformation as are many articles on 
cantilever brakes. The brake pad rim contact point to cantilever pivot 
point is constant regardless of where the pad washers are - it is a fixed 
distance. It is fixed by the relative position of the cantilever braze on 
to the rim surface and does not change by changing the pad washers or even 
brand of brake - the relative motion of the pad to rim is constant 
regardless of the shape of the metal in between. Changing the pad washers 
only changes:
 1. the the relative location of the straddle cable attachment points to 
each other and to the straddle hanger
 2. the amount of flex between the brake pad and the pivot point.

Laing
Delray Beach FL

On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 2:06:56 PM UTC-4, S wrote:
>
> Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work well 
> when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
> https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/
>
> I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big difference. 
>
> I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
> lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
> advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
> calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
> nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
> find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
> On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:
>
>> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
>> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes from 
>> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
>> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
>> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
>> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
>> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
>> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
>> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set up 
>> the way they are supposed to be set up.
>>
>>
>> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant benefits 
>>> to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the cable is 
>>> under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing compresses 
>>> less as a result."
>>> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
>>> Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently 
>>> all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
>>> spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
>>> -Kai
>>>
>>> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:
>>>
 I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can live 
 with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with a 
 short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
 benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
 cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
 compresses less as a result. 

 Daniel M
 Berkeley, CA

>>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/763d5f47-ce4a-48c9-9cf2-3903a59a5b20o%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[S]

Although I have switched to using V-brakes, I agree that cantis work well 
when set up properly. Has anyone linked this article yet? Good tips:
https://blackmtncycles.com/get-the-most-out-of-your-canti-brake/

I also agree with Ash that the model of canti can make a big difference. 

I think technique may sometimes play a part in fork judder or perceived 
lack of modulation when using V-brakes. Because of the greater mechanical 
advantage, they require a much lighter touch on the levers than cantis or 
calipers. When I first switched to Vs, until I learned to lighten up, I 
nearly sent myself over the bars several times. Now I have no problems. I 
find the feel of Vs very similar to mechanical disc brakes 
On Wednesday, October 21, 2020 at 8:59:47 AM UTC-7 Mark Roland wrote:

> I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
> advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes from 
> 1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
> like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
> compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
> tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
> people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
> technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
> shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set up 
> the way they are supposed to be set up.
>
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
> wrote:
>>
>> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant benefits 
>> to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the cable is 
>> under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing compresses 
>> less as a result."
>> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid 
>> Speed Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently 
>> all set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I 
>> spent a lot on cantilevers was 1990
>> -Kai
>>
>> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:
>>
>>> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can live 
>>> with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with a 
>>> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
>>> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
>>> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
>>> compresses less as a result. 
>>>
>>> Daniel M
>>> Berkeley, CA
>>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/addfbc6d-ea45-4a75-a4ff-efb7788baa06n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Mark Roland]

I question the notion that these attributes represent a "significant 
advantage." My Trek 830 still has the original basic cantilever brakes from 
1984. I don't think the pads, cables, or housing have been changed. Stops 
like a charm. Even after being under all that averse tension and 
compression for the past 36 years. Also cantilevers have been stopping 
tandems, loaded touring bikes, and racing bikes for many years. I get that 
people don't like working with them, But it's just another personal 
technology decision, like whether you want to use indexing, or electronic 
shifting, or friction. Cantilever brakes are effective when they are set up 
the way they are supposed to be set up.

On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 10:06:14 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
wrote:
>
> Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant benefits 
> to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the cable is 
> under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing compresses 
> less as a result."
> That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid Speed 
> Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently all 
> set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I spent a 
> lot on cantilevers was 1990
> -Kai
>
> On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:
>
>> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can live 
>> with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with a 
>> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
>> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
>> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
>> compresses less as a result. 
>>
>> Daniel M
>> Berkeley, CA
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/199239c8-ea16-46de-921f-8f90ae1e385fo%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA]

Travel Agents need to be set up correctly so the cable has no relative 
motion with respect to the pulley, especially around the bridging hole. 
Otherwise, the sharp kink and repeated motion may possibly cause the cable 
to fray. The key is to ensure the bridging hole is set correctly within the 
rotation range of the pulley. Here's Park Tool's tutorial on Travel Agent 
setup 

.

Given that there are people with good experiences with Travel Agents, I 
don't believe the mechanism is always inherently bad. OK, maybe if you 
consider being sensitive to setup as bad. Furthermore, having a shop do it 
doesn't guarantee that the job was properly done. I can't tell you how many 
times I've been aghast at "professional" work that I could have done 
better, if I had their tools (which I didn't because it's too expensive for 
one-time use).

Finally, the leverage/cable displacement change provided by the Travel 
Agent is not adjustable. It's kind of hit-or-miss whether you like the 
feel. For many people, having a spongy feel isn't great, and they prefer a 
solid feel. However, if the brake is set up and adjusted correctly, those 
two feel types only indicate how much leverage the brake system has – the 
spongy feel is high leverage, and the solid feel is low leverage. See St. 
Sheldon  for more 
info (applies equally to canti and V-brakes). Some brake levers have 
adjustable leverage though, and with those, one can customize the leverage 
to vary the feel to one's liking (again, trading power for "solidness").

On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 1:46:47 PM UTC-7 fugd...@gmail.com wrote:

> Twice I had frayed cables even when installed by LBS. I was told by 2 
> different bike mechanics frayed cables were not uncommon - also I remember 
> the feel was not as good as direct. YMMV 
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 11:00:48 AM UTC-7 vhans...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Please expand?   I have used travel agents for years, even replaced 
>> cables on them..   I have had no issues. 
>>
>> VTW
>>
>> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 9:34:19 AM UTC-7 fug...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> There are real problems with Travel Agents, including safety. I just 
>>> changed levers.
>>>
>>> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 8:26:56 AM UTC-7 Michael Baquerizo wrote:
>>>
 i'm not a pro mechanic by any means but i've used the standard shimano 
 lever on a tektro canti front and shimano v brake rear and didn't really 
 have beef with the stopping power (casual use, not performance at all, in 
 NYC)



 On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 5:18:09 PM UTC-4 greenteadrinkers wrote:

> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know 
> I'd need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've 
> noticed 
> up front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's 
> great in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's 
> sitting 
> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
> looking into.
> Thx! 
> Scott
>


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/be9e035a-5d6d-4e06-9e91-6fa9c651c2bfn%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Daniel's statement makes some sense- "but there are significant benefits to 
long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the cable is under 
less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing compresses less as 
a result."
That's enough of a reason to never use cantilevers again. I use Avid Speed 
Dial levers for the adjustable pull built in to the lever. Currently all 
set on long pull and that's how they'll stay. Glad the last time I spent a 
lot on cantilevers was 1990
-Kai

On Sunday, October 18, 2020 at 1:50:05 PM UTC-4 Daniel M wrote:

> I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can live 
> with is a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with a 
> short-arm V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant 
> benefits to long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the 
> cable is under less tension so the cable stretches less and the housing 
> compresses less as a result. 
>
> Daniel M
> Berkeley, CA
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5909bd66-6c14-49c1-9397-dea9697b1496n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[fugd...@gmail.com]

Twice I had frayed cables even when installed by LBS. I was told by 2 
different bike mechanics frayed cables were not uncommon - also I remember 
the feel was not as good as direct. YMMV 

On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 11:00:48 AM UTC-7 vhans...@gmail.com wrote:

> Please expand?   I have used travel agents for years, even replaced cables 
> on them..   I have had no issues. 
>
> VTW
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 9:34:19 AM UTC-7 fug...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> There are real problems with Travel Agents, including safety. I just 
>> changed levers.
>>
>> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 8:26:56 AM UTC-7 Michael Baquerizo wrote:
>>
>>> i'm not a pro mechanic by any means but i've used the standard shimano 
>>> lever on a tektro canti front and shimano v brake rear and didn't really 
>>> have beef with the stopping power (casual use, not performance at all, in 
>>> NYC)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 5:18:09 PM UTC-4 greenteadrinkers wrote:
>>>
 Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know 
 I'd need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed 
 up front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's 
 great in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's 
 sitting 
 around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
 looking into.
 Thx! 
 Scott

>>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/939a3048-d16e-40d9-8e24-03440e3fb7e0n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Victor Hanson]

Please expand?   I have used travel agents for years, even replaced cables 
on them..   I have had no issues. 

VTW

On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 9:34:19 AM UTC-7 fugd...@gmail.com wrote:

> There are real problems with Travel Agents, including safety. I just 
> changed levers.
>
> On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 8:26:56 AM UTC-7 Michael Baquerizo wrote:
>
>> i'm not a pro mechanic by any means but i've used the standard shimano 
>> lever on a tektro canti front and shimano v brake rear and didn't really 
>> have beef with the stopping power (casual use, not performance at all, in 
>> NYC)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 5:18:09 PM UTC-4 greenteadrinkers wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know 
>>> I'd need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed 
>>> up front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's 
>>> great in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's sitting 
>>> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
>>> looking into.
>>> Thx! 
>>> Scott
>>>
>>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8440e278-cc2d-443c-8c01-083544203910n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[greenteadrinkers]

Thanks for all the info, everyone! I'll need to take a deeper dive into the 
comments shortly.

On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 12:57:12 PM UTC-4 Ash wrote:

> Here's a related thread 
> https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/a0uWpfDl6Ss/m/G7bKwJ8XCAAJ
>
> After experimenting with various setups, I finally settled with Avid 
> shorty ultimates, setup with wide profile in the rear and narrow in the 
> front.  Been riding the Susie this way for over a month.  Very happy with 
> break power distribution and modulation. 
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, 16 October 2020 at 14:18:09 UTC-7 greenteadrinkers wrote:
>
>> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know 
>> I'd need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed 
>> up front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's 
>> great in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's sitting 
>> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
>> looking into.
>> Thx! 
>> Scott
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8e61d102-57eb-47c8-b253-cebdb8ea1072n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[fugd...@gmail.com]

There are real problems with Travel Agents, including safety. I just 
changed levers.

On Monday, October 19, 2020 at 8:26:56 AM UTC-7 Michael Baquerizo wrote:

> i'm not a pro mechanic by any means but i've used the standard shimano 
> lever on a tektro canti front and shimano v brake rear and didn't really 
> have beef with the stopping power (casual use, not performance at all, in 
> NYC)
>
>
>
> On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 5:18:09 PM UTC-4 greenteadrinkers wrote:
>
>> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know 
>> I'd need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed 
>> up front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's 
>> great in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's sitting 
>> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
>> looking into.
>> Thx! 
>> Scott
>>
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/72f5d76b-0702-4a0e-bf97-294bb6a14b36n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Michael Baquerizo]

i'm not a pro mechanic by any means but i've used the standard shimano 
lever on a tektro canti front and shimano v brake rear and didn't really 
have beef with the stopping power (casual use, not performance at all, in 
NYC)



On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 5:18:09 PM UTC-4 greenteadrinkers wrote:

> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know I'd 
> need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed up 
> front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's great 
> in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's sitting 
> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
> looking into.
> Thx! 
> Scott
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/87a4b341-9a0e-49f6-a000-49a36d8e588fn%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Daniel M]

I will also throw out there that finding a long-pull lever you can live with is 
a preferable solution than Travel Agents. I'd sooner go with a short-arm 
V-brake than use a Travel Agent, but there are significant benefits to 
long-pull brakes, both rim and mechanical disc, in that the cable is under less 
tension so the cable stretches less and the housing compresses less as a 
result. 

Daniel M
Berkeley, CA

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/c54df9d7-5527-4ed2-bcc1-bdd2477c1d18o%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Philip Williamson]

I’d be more likely to put the V on the front, like Nick. His travel agent 
trick is a smart way to match the levers with the different brakes, too.

I’ve had two bikes that needed Paul minimotos to cure the brake judder. The 
light forks and long steerers did the flexing trick under hard braking, 
slackening the brake pressure. Because the cable stop is on the brake, Vs 
and Minimotos aren’t affected by the flex in the system.

I’d look at the V-brakes pads, sand them and make sure they hit square, and 
make sure there are no dents or high spots in your rim. If you have another 
wheel that fits, I’d swap that in and see if the judder remains.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA



On Friday, October 16, 2020 at 2:18:09 PM UTC-7 greenteadrinkers wrote:

> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know I'd 
> need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed up 
> front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's great 
> in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's sitting 
> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
> looking into.
> Thx! 
> Scott
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/2d684b92-e858-4322-a6c5-572227c6e929n%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Nick Payne]

I have the opposite on my Appaloosa - V-brake in front and canti on the 
rear. I used that combination because I found that cantis on the front get 
in the way of front panniers - I prefer touring with front panniers and no 
rear panniers.

The brake levers are TRP and with a travel agent on the front to match the 
V-brake to the lever cable pull.

Nick

On Saturday, 17 October 2020 08:18:09 UTC+11, greenteadrinkers wrote:
>
> Anyone ever use a Canti brake up front and V-brake in the back? I know I'd 
> need different pull levers, which complicates things, but I've noticed up 
> front, the V-brake can sometimes be a little more than I need, it's great 
> in the back though. I have two sets of Paul neo-retro canti's sitting 
> around and was thinking the combination might be something weird worth 
> looking into.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/4a6131a3-f5d5-4456-8803-70030f394594o%40googlegroups.com.

[RBW] Re: V-Brake and Canti...

[Garth]

Try the Tektro fork mounted cable hanger as the front brake cable is 
then direct to it just above the yoke cable. It's a common thing for 
shudder in the Cyclocross world. Also make sure your headset is properly 
adjusted. 




-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW 
Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/5069ab7b-5ca3-4e8c-9a75-6857833664a9o%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[clyde canter]

Better stopping power might depend on the observer.  I find that Vs do
stop better, maybe too better.  If you only have one bike however, or you
have the same type of actuation on all you bikes, ie...long pull or short
pull then you'd probably get used to the extra power.  I personally find V
brakes too grabby, but that's a personal opinion.  Some tips for both I've
found:
For cantis I strongly recommend shortening the length of un-housed cable,
ie , use a brake bolt hole cable stop.  These things greatly reduce squeal
and shudder. they can be used front and rear.

For Vs with drop bars I would suggest buying the noodles with the adjuster
built in as you will have no adjustment on the levers for drops.

Good luck,

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Jan RBW jan@gmail.com wrote:

 I’m planning my new country bike with drop bars and bar end shifters and
 I’m considering which brakes I should choose.

 The alternatives I’m thinking at the moment are:
 - Tektro CR720 cantilevers  Shimano BL-R400 levers
 - Avid Single Digit 7 V-brakes  Tektro RL 520 levers

 From reading this thread I guess I should go with the V-brakes because of
 the better stopping power?

 I’m open to other alternatives too if you want to recommend something.

 Jan

 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
 RBW Owners Bunch group.
 To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
 To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
 rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 For more options, visit this group at
 http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[dougP]

Jan:

After all the fiddling I talked about above on my wife's bike, I
converted my Atlantis to V-brakes  the long cable pull Tektro
levers.  The previous brakes were Tekro 720 with Tekro's standard pull
levers.  The braking effort is considerably less with the V-brakes,
and my arms don't wear out on long steep downhills.  A side benefit is
better pannier clearance.  As cool  stylish as the 720s look, they
get in the way.  BTW, if you go with V-brakes, get noodles that have a
threaded adjuster built-in.  Makes fine tuning the set-up much easier,
and Vs do require the pads to be quite close to the rim.

dougP

On Nov 13, 11:06 pm, Jan RBW jan@gmail.com wrote:
 I’m planning my new country bike with drop bars and bar end shifters and
 I’m considering which brakes I should choose.

 The alternatives I’m thinking at the moment are:
 - Tektro CR720 cantilevers  Shimano BL-R400 levers
 - Avid Single Digit 7 V-brakes  Tektro RL 520 levers

 From reading this thread I guess I should go with the V-brakes because of
 the better stopping power?

 I’m open to other alternatives too if you want to recommend something.

 Jan

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[PATRICK MOORE]

FWIW: I've fretted about brakes for over 40 years, and I've used just about
every kind there is, and my conclusion is that the best brakes bar none
that I ever used -- equal to Vs and mech disks in power, better than single
pivots in modulation -- were the Riv set up IRD wide profile cantils on the
floor Sam Hill I bought from Riv circa 2010. Salmon pads. Powerful but
absolutely non-grabby.

WORST brakes I ever used: Mafac cantis on the Herse, both with Mafac levers
and Tektros. Even the wider tandem model made absolutely no improvement.
POS.

On Nov 13, 11:06 pm, Jan RBW jan@gmail.com wrote:

  I’m planning my new country bike with drop bars and bar end shifters and
  I’m considering which brakes I should choose.
 
  The alternatives I’m thinking at the moment are:
  - Tektro CR720 cantilevers  Shimano BL-R400 levers
  - Avid Single Digit 7 V-brakes  Tektro RL 520 levers
 
  From reading this thread I guess I should go with the V-brakes because of
  the better stopping power?
 
  I’m open to other alternatives too if you want to recommend something.
 
  Jan

-
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Jan RBW]

I’m planning my new country bike with drop bars and bar end shifters and
I’m considering which brakes I should choose.

The alternatives I’m thinking at the moment are:
- Tektro CR720 cantilevers  Shimano BL-R400 levers
- Avid Single Digit 7 V-brakes  Tektro RL 520 levers

From reading this thread I guess I should go with the V-brakes because of
the better stopping power?

I’m open to other alternatives too if you want to recommend something.

Jan

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Seth Vidal]

Go with the V-brakes b/c they can be less of an ass pain to setup.

The tektro 520 levers also feel pretty good in my hands. Having said that -
so do the shimano levers.

However, if you really want cantis, spring for the paul cantis - they are
just a nicer brake and less fidgety to setup than the cr720s.

-sv





On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Jan RBW jan@gmail.com wrote:

 I’m planning my new country bike with drop bars and bar end shifters and
 I’m considering which brakes I should choose.

 The alternatives I’m thinking at the moment are:
 - Tektro CR720 cantilevers  Shimano BL-R400 levers
 - Avid Single Digit 7 V-brakes  Tektro RL 520 levers

 From reading this thread I guess I should go with the V-brakes because of
 the better stopping power?

 I’m open to other alternatives too if you want to recommend something.

 Jan

 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
 RBW Owners Bunch group.
 To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
 To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
 rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 For more options, visit this group at
 http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[ascpgh]

Travel Agents were OEM on our tandem to convert the 105 STI lever pull
to operate the Linear pull brakes. I found them only just more
tolerable than the STI levers, especially the day the left one failed,
I scrapped the STI levers and the Travel Agents, switching to bar-end
shifters and Dia Compe 287-V levers now known as Cane Creek Drop V
(http://www.canecreek.com/component-other?product=drop-v). They are
calibrated to pull the cable at the standard linear-pull rate, opening
up a wider range of brake options from the drops without the converter
doohickies.

ANDY
Pittsburgh



On Jan 15, 4:01 pm, dougP dougpn...@cox.net wrote:
 Does anyone know if the effort required is the same for V-brakes and
 cantis?  Or is one easier to pull than the other?

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[dougP]

There seems to be a strong endorsement for dedicated brake levers
designed for the longer cable pull.  When I first got this bright
idea, Riv had the levers to go with the brakes.  Time I quit mulling 
got to ordering, the levers were gone but the Travel Agents were still
there.  No worries, thinks I, saves the hassle of messing with bar
tape, shifters, etc.  There may well be a pair of levers in my
future.  I'll never be able to do as nice a job of taping the bars as
Riv did when they built the bike.

dougP

On Jan 17, 9:48 am, ascpgh asc@gmail.com wrote:
 Travel Agents were OEM on our tandem to convert the 105 STI lever pull
 to operate the Linear pull brakes. I found them only just more
 tolerable than the STI levers, especially the day the left one failed,
 I scrapped the STI levers and the Travel Agents, switching to bar-end
 shifters and Dia Compe 287-V levers now known as Cane Creek Drop V
 (http://www.canecreek.com/component-other?product=drop-v). They are
 calibrated to pull the cable at the standard linear-pull rate, opening
 up a wider range of brake options from the drops without the converter
 doohickies.

 ANDY
 Pittsburgh

 On Jan 15, 4:01 pm, dougP dougpn...@cox.net wrote:



  Does anyone know if the effort required is the same for V-brakes and
  cantis?  Or is one easier to pull than the other?- Hide quoted text -

 - Show quoted text -

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Michael Hechmer]

Jim, you point to the problem I have had with Shimano levers, since my 
experience is limited to Ultegra levers with Shimano and DiCompe cantis. 
 They just required so much pull that the pads had to be set all but 
touching the rims, which was, of course, impossible to keep adjusted.

The first time I set up my Neo Retros, I spent a lot of time fussing with 
it.  Now that I understand how it's done I can do it in a couple of 
minutes. Neither the Shimano BR550(??) or classic DiCompe offered very much 
power but The Paul's can pull my rear wheel off the ground if I slam on 
them, so I don't think I would want anything more powerful.  They have 
saved my life in a right hook situation, so I'm naturally biased.

The one thing I do not like about cantis is how dirty they get.  My Ram has 
Racer Ms and the tandems Racers, and because these brakes sit above the 
fender they stay a whole lot cleaner.  I would think that V brakes would 
also stay cleaner.  I live 2 miles down a dirt road, in a town where all 
the town roads are dirt, so it may be a bigger deal for me than for most 
riders, but if you're riding fat tire you are probably riding off the 
pavement a good bit, so maybe not.

michael
Westford, Vt

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/sAj1yUfcSdcJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[dougP]

Jeremy:

Thanks for the explanation.  I've read Sheldon's article  have the BQ
brake issue, but your explanation is a bit more in layman's terms.
Good stuff.

Jim:

My first cut is also to just set the pads flat to the rim  leave 'em
if nothing makes noise.  Makes sense to have the maximum area at
work.  So I did set these up without toe-in; nice  quiet.  This set
came with some cool spherical washers that make pad angle adjustment a
non-event.

Checked everything out  all seems to be installed properly.  Maybe
it's just travel agents feel funny.  My wife says ...the bike stops
OK; don't you have another project? so maybe I'm over-thinking
this.

dougP

On Jan 18, 4:46 am, Michael Hechmer mhech...@gmail.com wrote:
 Jim, you point to the problem I have had with Shimano levers, since my
 experience is limited to Ultegra levers with Shimano and DiCompe cantis.
  They just required so much pull that the pads had to be set all but
 touching the rims, which was, of course, impossible to keep adjusted.

 The first time I set up my Neo Retros, I spent a lot of time fussing with
 it.  Now that I understand how it's done I can do it in a couple of
 minutes. Neither the Shimano BR550(??) or classic DiCompe offered very much
 power but The Paul's can pull my rear wheel off the ground if I slam on
 them, so I don't think I would want anything more powerful.  They have
 saved my life in a right hook situation, so I'm naturally biased.

 The one thing I do not like about cantis is how dirty they get.  My Ram has
 Racer Ms and the tandems Racers, and because these brakes sit above the
 fender they stay a whole lot cleaner.  I would think that V brakes would
 also stay cleaner.  I live 2 miles down a dirt road, in a town where all
 the town roads are dirt, so it may be a bigger deal for me than for most
 riders, but if you're riding fat tire you are probably riding off the
 pavement a good bit, so maybe not.

 michael
 Westford, Vt

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[PATRICK MOORE]

The old Shimano wide profile cantis on the trike, and the modern wide IRCs
(I think that's the brand) on the Sam Hill are both very powerful and set
up with little hassle. I didn't even bother putting salmon pads on the
Shimanos. I could never get low profiles to work well with drop bar levers.
The Mafacs stink. My experience, anyway.

On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:11 PM, benzzoy benz...@yahoo.com wrote:

 +1.

 For those inclined to learn about the hows and whys, and fiddle about
 with different types of (virtual) cantilever brakes, there's always:

 http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/


 On Jan 15, 3:06 pm, Scott G. sco...@primax.com wrote:
  There are cantilevers, then there are cantilevers, ye olde high profile
  Mafac/Paul Neo retro need strong hands, low profile like Avid Shorty 6
  or Paul Touring setup with the shortest practical straddle cable will
  equal or exceed V brakes.
 
  Cyclocross magazine did the test, hanging a fixed weight from a straddle
  cable and measuring the clamping force of the brakes using a scale,
 simple
  repeatable.
  The varied the straddle cable length, shorter = more ummphh on low
 profile
  brakes, high profile brakes power varied little with different straddle
 cable
  lengths.
  Bravo to the magazine for doing quantifiable testing.

 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
 RBW Owners Bunch group.
 To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
 To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
 rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 For more options, visit this group at
 http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.




-- 
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Michael Hechmer]

I have never been able to get Shimano levers to work well with cantis. 
 Cane Creek / Tektro levers work very well with both my Neo Retros and 
Racers.  I have arthritis so no longer have the grip I did 20 years ago, so 
am probably a good test subject for this discussion.

Personally a travel agent sounds like one more moving part to fiddle with 
and I don't think I would like that.

good luck,
michael

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/k_q8fDtSlncJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2012-01-17 at 05:49 -0800, Michael Hechmer wrote:
 I have never been able to get Shimano levers to work well with cantis.

Not my experience at all.  I have Shimano aero levers on bikes with
Shimano Deore XT II and Avid Shorty 4 cantis, and they work as well as
those same levers on bikes with Paul Racer and Mafac Raid centerpulls,
even feel extremely similar.



-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[James Warren]

Dia Compe 986's and Shimano Tiagra levers work very well on my bike.

Shimano Tiagra levers are reported to work well with cantis in general.


On Jan 17, 2012, at 6:45 AM, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 On Tue, 2012-01-17 at 05:49 -0800, Michael Hechmer wrote:
 I have never been able to get Shimano levers to work well with cantis.
 
 Not my experience at all.  I have Shimano aero levers on bikes with
 Shimano Deore XT II and Avid Shorty 4 cantis, and they work as well as
 those same levers on bikes with Paul Racer and Mafac Raid centerpulls,
 even feel extremely similar.
 
 
 
 -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
 RBW Owners Bunch group.
 To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
 To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
 rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 For more options, visit this group at 
 http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
 

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Even the cheapie Tektro v-brakes, which are under $30 for a bike's worth, are 
amazingly powerful and all but foolproof to set up. 

I stopped using cantilevers on my own bikes several years ago. Canti fans often 
claim that cantilevers are a simple matter of set-up, that theoretically they 
should be as powerful as v-brakes, provided that several variables are properly 
adjusted. If that's true, then I never figured out the right way to do it. My 
most powerful cantilevers were nowhere near as powerful as any of the v-brakes 
I use, certainly not without a trade off in required grip power.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/C8Hw1oRnsYMJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[carnerda...@bellsouth.net]

+1 on travel agents feel funny. Have been the full circle on my Sam: V-
brakes with travel agents, Tektro CR720 cantis, back to V-brakes with
Tektro RL520 levers. Was painful to cut off my less than 2 yr. old
harlequin wrap, but am glad I did.
David

On Jan 16, 2:19 am, fugd...@gmail.com fugd...@gmail.com wrote:
 Travel Agents feel funny and the cable is much more susceptible to
 breaking.V-brakes are better in the wet.

 On Jan 15, 9:21 pm, dougP dougpn...@cox.net wrote:

  Jim:

  I'll keep that in mind.  The bike is my wife's Atlantis  has the
  Shimano levers Riv uses.  I hate to start tearing into the handlebar
  set up (bar end shifters, etc)  I have the brakes  Travel Agents so
  I'll just install them  see how that works.  I read the Travel Agent
  instructions  have been fiddling with one with some brake cable.
  Getting them set up correctly may be an exercise in patience, getting
  the cable hole on the pulley in the correct location.

  dougP

  On Jan 15, 6:17 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com
  wrote:

   If the bike in question is equipped with STI levers, then the travel 
   agent is the way to go. Otherwise, the Tektro RL520 levers are a cheaper, 
   better way to go.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Andrew]

I'm really enjoying the braking with my cheap Shimano medium-profile
cantis, arms out as wide as possible (posts still adequately captured by
the brake bolt), straddle wire as low as possible... the feel is soft but
the brakes are quick to stop.

Another good analysis of cantilever brake geometry, in addition to
Sheldon's, is here:

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/canti-geometry.pdf

with a fun calculator at

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/

- Andrew, Berkeley

On Sun, Jan 15, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Scott G. sco...@primax.com wrote:

 There are cantilevers, then there are cantilevers, ye olde high profile
 Mafac/Paul Neo retro need strong hands, low profile like Avid Shorty 6
 or Paul Touring setup with the shortest practical straddle cable will
 equal or exceed V brakes.

 Cyclocross magazine did the test, hanging a fixed weight from a straddle
 cable
 and measuring the clamping force of the brakes using a scale, simple
 repeatable.
 The varied the straddle cable length, shorter = more ummphh on low profile
 brakes,
 high profile brakes power varied little with different straddle cable
 lengths.
 Bravo to the magazine for doing quantifiable testing.

  --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
 RBW Owners Bunch group.
 To view this discussion on the web visit
 https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/Uj3Pvl0GQ9AJ.

 To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
 To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
 rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 For more options, visit this group at
 http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Michael_S]

Doug, While my opinion is that the right cantilever brakes ( Avid or Paul ) 
stop just as well I would just caution that the Travel Agents have a 
reputation for cable failure becasue of the tighter bend. Since it's your 
wifes bike and she is a lighter weight person and probably won't be 
carrying huge loads it's probably not an issue. Just something to keep an 
eye on.
 
~mike

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/MPO8ODjs5LsJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

Re: [RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[John Blish]

Hi James,

Do you have any current source for the Dia Compe 986 brakes?  I need them
to remain period correct on my Bridgestone MB-1.

Thanks

John


On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 9:02 AM, James Warren jimcwar...@earthlink.netwrote:


 Dia Compe 986's and Shimano Tiagra levers work very well on my bike.

 Shimano Tiagra levers are reported to work well with cantis in general.


 On Jan 17, 2012, at 6:45 AM, Steve Palincsar wrote:

  On Tue, 2012-01-17 at 05:49 -0800, Michael Hechmer wrote:
  I have never been able to get Shimano levers to work well with cantis.
 
  Not my experience at all.  I have Shimano aero levers on bikes with
  Shimano Deore XT II and Avid Shorty 4 cantis, and they work as well as
  those same levers on bikes with Paul Racer and Mafac Raid centerpulls,
  even feel extremely similar.
 
 
 
  --
  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
 Groups RBW Owners Bunch group.
  To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
 rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
  For more options, visit this group at
 http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
 

 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
 RBW Owners Bunch group.
 To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
 To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
 rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 For more options, visit this group at
 http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.




-- 
John Blish
Minneapolis MN USA

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[dougP]

Thanks for all the good comments, especially the Tektro pn for the V-
brake specific lever.  Funny that with all the V-brakes out there,
there aren't more road levers for them.  The more I look at these 
how they work, ease of set-up (Travel Agent issues aside) and staying
out of the way of baggage  rackage, the better I like them.

I changed out the rear brake just to get some feedback.  The Travel
Agent is a bit fiddly to work out correctly.  She reports quite a bit
more power but also quite a bit of lever travel.  I have the shoes
within 1 mm of rim contact each side.  To me, the lever seems mushy
but the brakes are effective.  Neither of us have ever ridden V-brakes
so we're not sure what they're supposed to feel like.  The comment
about one more thing in the braking system is valid.  I need to re-
check everything to see if there's something slack that I missed, but
the brake arms start moving as soon as you actuate the brake lever.

dougP

On Jan 17, 8:17 am, John Blish jbl...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi James,

 Do you have any current source for the Dia Compe 986 brakes?  I need them
 to remain period correct on my Bridgestone MB-1.

 Thanks

 John

 On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 9:02 AM, James Warren jimcwar...@earthlink.netwrote:







  Dia Compe 986's and Shimano Tiagra levers work very well on my bike.

  Shimano Tiagra levers are reported to work well with cantis in general.

  On Jan 17, 2012, at 6:45 AM, Steve Palincsar wrote:

   On Tue, 2012-01-17 at 05:49 -0800, Michael Hechmer wrote:
   I have never been able to get Shimano levers to work well with cantis.

   Not my experience at all.  I have Shimano aero levers on bikes with
   Shimano Deore XT II and Avid Shorty 4 cantis, and they work as well as
   those same levers on bikes with Paul Racer and Mafac Raid centerpulls,
   even feel extremely similar.

   --
   You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
  Groups RBW Owners Bunch group.
   To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
   To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
  rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
   For more options, visit this group at
 http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

  --
  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
  RBW Owners Bunch group.
  To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
  To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
  rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
  For more options, visit this group at
 http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

 --
 John Blish
 Minneapolis MN USA- Hide quoted text -

 - Show quoted text -

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Jeremy Till]

Actually, I've found that maximizing braking power with cantilevers or v 
brakes often results in levers that feel mushy compared to say, caliper 
brakes.  In fact, what you are doing is maximizing the mechanical advantage 
of the system; if the levers are moving a relatively large amount (say, 
most of the way to the bar) for a relatively short distance traveled by the 
brake pads, that means you are exerting the maximum possible leverage on 
the brake pads and the maximum possible pressure on the rims.  

Think about what you would do to exert a large force on a heavy weight with 
a long lever: you would set it up with the fulcrum nearest the weight, so 
you could move the lever a long ways with relatively little force in order 
to move the weight a short distance with a large amount of force.

The limit case, at least with low-profile cantis, is setting the straddle 
cable as low as possible and the brake pads as close to the rim as possible 
without brake rub.  That way, the brake pads don't need to travel far; thus 
lever travel is used less to move the pads and more to exert a greater 
force on the rim once contact is made.  Of course, the practical limits on 
this setup are clearance below the straddle cable, sufficient pad clearance 
(esp. in muddy conditions), and sufficiently limited lever travel such that 
the lever is not bottoming out on the bar.  

I once set up the front low-profile cantilever on a fixed gear of mine with 
the pads close in and the straddle cable as low as possible.  The lever 
felt mushy in the stand but I went for a test ride, got to the end of the 
block, and almost threw myself over the handle bars; I was totally 
surprised by how much power i was getting out of the brake for how little 
pressure I was putting on the lever.  

Cantilever geometry can be confusing and counter-intuitive, but they can 
produce quite a lot of braking power with a relatively weak grip.  It took 
me a few reads to get it, but Sheldon's article on cantilever geometry and 
set-up really is the best explanation of it all: 

http://sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-geometry.html


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/2T2vjVjsByoJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

One common cause of mushiness is excessive toe-in of the pads. I generally 
start with the pads flat against the rim, and toe-in only if there's shuddering 
or squealing.

I've only dealt with travel agents on tandems, where they are a stock item when 
STI and v-brakes are the spec. Interestingly, some newer Santana tandems seem 
to have STI levers with v-brakes (or long pull discs), but no travel agent. I 
assume this means that Shimano increased the cable pull on the latest 
generation of STI levers. My mechanic Mongo tried it and says it works great.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/wwW7UUE97dYJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[fugd...@gmail.com]

Travel Agents feel funny and the cable is much more susceptible to
breaking.V-brakes are better in the wet.

On Jan 15, 9:21 pm, dougP dougpn...@cox.net wrote:
 Jim:

 I'll keep that in mind.  The bike is my wife's Atlantis  has the
 Shimano levers Riv uses.  I hate to start tearing into the handlebar
 set up (bar end shifters, etc)  I have the brakes  Travel Agents so
 I'll just install them  see how that works.  I read the Travel Agent
 instructions  have been fiddling with one with some brake cable.
 Getting them set up correctly may be an exercise in patience, getting
 the cable hole on the pulley in the correct location.

 dougP

 On Jan 15, 6:17 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com
 wrote:







  If the bike in question is equipped with STI levers, then the travel agent 
  is the way to go. Otherwise, the Tektro RL520 levers are a cheaper, better 
  way to go.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[benzzoy]

+1.

For those inclined to learn about the hows and whys, and fiddle about
with different types of (virtual) cantilever brakes, there's always:

http://www.circleacycles.com/cantilevers/


On Jan 15, 3:06 pm, Scott G. sco...@primax.com wrote:
 There are cantilevers, then there are cantilevers, ye olde high profile
 Mafac/Paul Neo retro need strong hands, low profile like Avid Shorty 6
 or Paul Touring setup with the shortest practical straddle cable will
 equal or exceed V brakes.

 Cyclocross magazine did the test, hanging a fixed weight from a straddle
 cable and measuring the clamping force of the brakes using a scale, simple
 repeatable.
 The varied the straddle cable length, shorter = more ummphh on low profile
 brakes, high profile brakes power varied little with different straddle cable
 lengths.
 Bravo to the magazine for doing quantifiable testing.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[rcnute]

V-brakes are easier to pull.

Ryan

On Jan 15, 1:01 pm, dougP dougpn...@cox.net wrote:
 Does anyone know if the effort required is the same for V-brakes and
 cantis?  Or is one easier to pull than the other?  The rider in
 question has small hands and cannot grip very hard.  The bike is an
 Atlantis, currently set-up with cantis (salmon pads)  Riv's standard
 issue Shimano road levers.  In the frenzy of the sale, I picked up a
 set of V-brakes and Travel Agents just in case.  Before I tear into
 everything, I'm curious if anyone has made the change  noticed a
 decrease in required effort.  I've heard they can be more powerful but
 wonder about the effort.

 dougP

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

+1 on v-brakes being easier to pull. We almost always suggest an upgrade to 
v-brakes on bikes that come stock with cantilevers, especially when the rider 
has less than a Kung-Fu grip. Lots of women have trouble with cantilevers and 
drop bar type levers, but even strong manly men like me benefit by the 
increased stopping power of v-brakes.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/hbatjfkaarAJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Scott G.]

There are cantilevers, then there are cantilevers, ye olde high profile 
Mafac/Paul Neo retro need strong hands, low profile like Avid Shorty 6
or Paul Touring setup with the shortest practical straddle cable will
equal or exceed V brakes.  

Cyclocross magazine did the test, hanging a fixed weight from a straddle 
cable
and measuring the clamping force of the brakes using a scale, simple 
repeatable.
The varied the straddle cable length, shorter = more ummphh on low profile 
brakes,
high profile brakes power varied little with different straddle cable 
lengths.
Bravo to the magazine for doing quantifiable testing.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/Uj3Pvl0GQ9AJ.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[dougP]

Thanks Jim, that's what I needed to know.  Now I've got job security
at least thru tomorrow.  The Travel Agent looks to be a well thought
out device.

dougP

On Jan 15, 1:45 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com
wrote:
 +1 on v-brakes being easier to pull. We almost always suggest an upgrade to 
 v-brakes on bikes that come stock with cantilevers, especially when the rider 
 has less than a Kung-Fu grip. Lots of women have trouble with cantilevers and 
 drop bar type levers, but even strong manly men like me benefit by the 
 increased stopping power of v-brakes.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

If the bike in question is equipped with STI levers, then the travel agent is 
the way to go. Otherwise, the Tektro RL520 levers are a cheaper, better way to 
go.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/3WagJyX4oB4J.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[RBW] Re: V-brake vs canti question

[dougP]

Jim:

I'll keep that in mind.  The bike is my wife's Atlantis  has the
Shimano levers Riv uses.  I hate to start tearing into the handlebar
set up (bar end shifters, etc)  I have the brakes  Travel Agents so
I'll just install them  see how that works.  I read the Travel Agent
instructions  have been fiddling with one with some brake cable.
Getting them set up correctly may be an exercise in patience, getting
the cable hole on the pulley in the correct location.

dougP

On Jan 15, 6:17 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery thill@gmail.com
wrote:
 If the bike in question is equipped with STI levers, then the travel agent is 
 the way to go. Otherwise, the Tektro RL520 levers are a cheaper, better way 
 to go.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
Owners Bunch group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.