Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Thanks Dave.  Using BSP now and also have the 48’s on my list.

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 7:51 AM Dave Johnston  wrote:

> If you are looking for plush and comfort you should seriously consider
> going with a bigger tire. 48mm with fenders will work really well on the
> Appaloosa or MIT Atlantis.
>
> The current best tire in this category is the Rene Herse Switchback Hill.
> In whatever durability you feel most appropriate. Ultralight, Regular,
> Endurance for your terrain. For less money WTB and SOMA also make good
> tires in 650b x 47ish.
>
> https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop/components/tires/650b/650bx48-switchback-hill/
>
> -Dave
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

John, no, I have not. I’m not sure it would give me a softer more stable
ride, not that the Bleriot is not stable.  I want to add as much Cush for
my hands and back. The 42mm Baby Pass have done well in that area.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 7:40 PM 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Joel
>
> Have you considered a seatpost with more setback?  The 1° slacker STA
> gives you approx 1.5cm more setback (Atlantis vs AHH) which can be obtained
> using a VO Grand Cru seatpost or the Nitto lugged CrMo post RBW sells.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
>
> On Monday, June 29, 2020 at 4:01:36 PM UTC-4, Joel Stern wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> Actually I would like to go a bit more relaxed than the Bleriiot. That
>> put the AHH in the same category as the Bleriot from what I have been
>> reading.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 3:49 PM 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <
>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Joel
>>>
>>> The MUSA frames were sized 2cm apart with a 2° sloping TT.  Looks much
>>> better.
>>>
>>> The frame is too long for me.  If not, I would ask him if it was MUSA or
>>> MIT.  If MUSA, it's a very good del.  If MIT, not bad deal, but unless you
>>> need his parts, you would be better off buying a new frame and getting what
>>> you want.
>>>
>>> If you liked your Bleriot, I would think a AHH-MIT is perferred to a
>>> Atlantis-MIT, for general riding with occasional tours.
>>>
>>> John Hawrylak
>>> Woodstown NJ
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Joel

Have you considered a seatpost with more setback?  The 1° slacker STA gives 
you approx 1.5cm more setback (Atlantis vs AHH) which can be obtained using 
a VO Grand Cru seatpost or the Nitto lugged CrMo post RBW sells.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ 


On Monday, June 29, 2020 at 4:01:36 PM UTC-4, Joel Stern wrote:
>
> John,
>
> Actually I would like to go a bit more relaxed than the Bleriiot. That put 
> the AHH in the same category as the Bleriot from what I have been reading. 
>
> On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 3:49 PM 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> Joel
>>
>> The MUSA frames were sized 2cm apart with a 2° sloping TT.  Looks much 
>> better.  
>>
>> The frame is too long for me.  If not, I would ask him if it was MUSA or 
>> MIT.  If MUSA, it's a very good del.  If MIT, not bad deal, but unless you 
>> need his parts, you would be better off buying a new frame and getting what 
>> you want.
>>
>> If you liked your Bleriot, I would think a AHH-MIT is perferred to a 
>> Atlantis-MIT, for general riding with occasional tours.  
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>
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>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

John,

Actually I would like to go a bit more relaxed than the Bleriiot. That put
the AHH in the same category as the Bleriot from what I have been reading.

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 3:49 PM 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Joel
>
> The MUSA frames were sized 2cm apart with a 2° sloping TT.  Looks much
> better.
>
> The frame is too long for me.  If not, I would ask him if it was MUSA or
> MIT.  If MUSA, it's a very good del.  If MIT, not bad deal, but unless you
> need his parts, you would be better off buying a new frame and getting what
> you want.
>
> If you liked your Bleriot, I would think a AHH-MIT is perferred to a
> Atlantis-MIT, for general riding with occasional tours.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Joel

The MUSA frames were sized 2cm apart with a 2° sloping TT.  Looks much 
better.  

The frame is too long for me.  If not, I would ask him if it was MUSA or 
MIT.  If MUSA, it's a very good del.  If MIT, not bad deal, but unless you 
need his parts, you would be better off buying a new frame and getting what 
you want.

If you liked your Bleriot, I would think a AHH-MIT is perferred to a 
Atlantis-MIT, for general riding with occasional tours.  

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Bill Schairer]

I recently installed Paul touring cantilevers on my Atlantis for no 
particularly good reason other than I wanted to.  I was very pleasantly 
surprised at how easy they were to set up and easy to release and reattach. 
 SO much easier than the stock Shimanos they replaced.  I’m running 50mm 
tires so like to release the brakes when removing and installing a wheel. I 
am getting some shudder up front and bought one of those fork mount cable 
stops but just haven’t been motivated enough to mount it yet to see if it 
addresses my problem as I’ve read it would.

Bill S

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 2:41:38 PM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>
> Really nice. I may have to decide if I will use my side pulls (if I can) 
> or go to Cantis. Only used Cantis on my allrounder many years ago and sold 
> a NOS pair of Suntour Expert I think a couple of years back. I want 
> something easy to release and reattach. 
>
> Nice colors too. Beautiful bike
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:53 PM Joe Bernard  > wrote:
>
>> Here's a couple more photos. 
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/3wpygKkdeVfaAzh47
>>
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>

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Thanks John.  Were the MUSA bikes different in sizing.  With the MIT ones I
would use 51.

Thanks, Joel

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 8:15 AM 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Joel
>
> You probably saw this, but a 54.5cm AHH is for sale on this
>
> FS: 54.5 A. Homer Hilsen with extras
>
> Might be worth an inquiry.  Don't know if it is MUSA or MIT.  The 56cm
> EffTTL is too long for me with a 5cm stem and RH Randonnuer bars.
>
> PS, you may need a shorter stem on the new MIT's since the EffTTL is
> longer.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joe Bernard]

Thanks, Ash! (I secretly hope it becomes a production model, too..like a 
low-step version of the Appaloosa) 

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joe Bernard]

White Industries hubs, Mi5 and some other name up front, Velocity Atlas rims. 
Rich Lesnik built of course! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Ash]

This is one of the coolest bikes in existence!   I'm rooting for this exact 
geometry to become a production model.


On Sunday, 28 June 2020 11:49:34 UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> You mean this one?? Definitely long chainstays which was Grant's choice, 
> and I picked the drop-toptube because I like the clearance and the look. 
> The look gave me the heart seatlug and RBW decal up there in the air above 
> the toptube where everyone can see it..swanky! For reference I'm about 
> Joel's height and the measurements are (approximately) 54cm seattube and 
> 63cm effective toptube. On paper the front sounds crazy long for my height, 
> but in practice with the high-and-reaching-back bars I use it's perfect. 
> Incredibly stable frame which still turns nicely, it's a great bike. 
>
> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 11:12:11 AM UTC-7 Doug Hansford wrote:
>
>> Joel,
>> Tap that 401k!! Have you seen Joe B.'s custom? It has a nice sloping top 
>> tube and I think maybe 650b? You SHOULD treat yourself to a retirement 
>> gift. All those years of saving in your retirement accounts was good 
>> discipline and now you should not feel guilty for investing in a nice bike. 
>> Riding has so many benefits both mental and physical that I think it would 
>> be money well spent. If Joe sees this maybe he can tell you about is custom 
>> and the process he went through the come up with the design.
>> Doug Hansford
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 1:53:23 PM UTC-4, Joel Stern wrote:
>>
>>> Ted, I have had 8 Rivendells before my accident 10 years ago, 4 were 
>>> still with me.  Sold 3 of my last 4 as I thought I would not ride again but 
>>> kept the Bleriot in the hope that I would as I bonded with the 650b.  Now 
>>> retired and riding again and I have not touched my 401 money.  Maybe I 
>>> deserve a treat.  
>>>
>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:24 PM ted  wrote:
>>>
>> Hey Joel,

 Prices have certainly gone up since the Bleriot days, I think a lot of 
 that is just years of inflation but still ...

 I encourage you to give the fine folks at RBW WH a call to discuss ride 
 and handling of current models wrt your Bleriot. 
 That said I would expect the AHH to be closer to your Bleriot but 
 perhaps a bit more stable, and the Joe A and Atlantis to be more stable. 

 regards
 ted

 On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 9:57:49 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>
> Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what 
> that means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and 
> Appaloosa and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these 
> new 
> MIT models are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom 
> was 
> just a tad more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase 
> comfort, my back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he 
> stability of the front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed 
> a 
> bit of a twitchy feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on 
> but I don’t think that would have caused it.  
>
> Thanks, Joel
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted  wrote:
>
>> Joel,
>>
>> The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis) 
>> have significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
>> Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height 
>> is smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
>> Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with 
>> respect to a more horizontal tt model).
>> Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible 
>> differences in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
>> The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I 
>> presume wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I 
>> think 
>> there are other threads that speak to how these versions ride and 
>> handling 
>> compare, but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from 
>> the 
>> rear axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.
>>
>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and 
>>> the new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my 
>>> Bleriot where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and 
>>> Appaloosa I 
>>> would take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for 
>>> those 
>>> that follow this do any of these have a more relaxed geometry or a more 
>>> comfortable ride than my Bleriot which is already comfortable? What can 
>>> anyone tell me about the sizing changes? When Grant measured me years 
>>> ago I 
>>> believe he had my PBH to 83 or a bit more, while when I had help from 
>>> my 
>>> wife 

Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Joe, what hubs and rims are you using?

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:53 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Here's a couple more photos.
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/3wpygKkdeVfaAzh47
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Joe, thanks.  I was thinking about maybe going cassette and index.  It is
probably easier on your hands.  I have a nice Deore 9 speed rear
derailleur.  I have velocity synergy rims now, wonder what looks good
today?

I will have to learn more about V brakes, I see from reading on Rivendell
that Grant is a fan of them.  I’ll take a look.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 6:10 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Index rear, friction front..my days of pretending I have the patience for
> rear friction are DONE.
>
> I highly recommend the Shimano DXR v-brakes you see on my bike, they're
> super easy to disconnect for wheel removal. And pretty!
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joe Bernard]

Index rear, friction front..my days of pretending I have the patience for rear 
friction are DONE. 

I highly recommend the Shimano DXR v-brakes you see on my bike, they're super 
easy to disconnect for wheel removal. And pretty! 

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Really nice. I may have to decide if I will use my side pulls (if I can) or
go to Cantis. Only used Cantis on my allrounder many years ago and sold a
NOS pair of Suntour Expert I think a couple of years back. I want something
easy to release and reattach.

Nice colors too. Beautiful bike

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:53 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Here's a couple more photos.
>
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/3wpygKkdeVfaAzh47
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Joe, just looked at the bike again, are the shifters friction or have you
gone to index? Index may be in the cards for me but then I would have to
build up another rear wheel and I have that spare Velocity rear that I was
using for the rollers with fork mount when I could after my surgery. Also,
do you find the B17 comfortable for a more upright ride? I am using the
discontinued B68 and it is ok, sometimes I think too wide but I sold all of
my B 17's. So many foolish moves, I had a great parts draw.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:49 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> You mean this one?? Definitely long chainstays which was Grant's choice,
> and I picked the drop-toptube because I like the clearance and the look.
> The look gave me the heart seatlug and RBW decal up there in the air above
> the toptube where everyone can see it..swanky! For reference I'm about
> Joel's height and the measurements are (approximately) 54cm seattube and
> 63cm effective toptube. On paper the front sounds crazy long for my height,
> but in practice with the high-and-reaching-back bars I use it's perfect.
> Incredibly stable frame which still turns nicely, it's a great bike.
>
> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 11:12:11 AM UTC-7 Doug Hansford wrote:
>
>> Joel,
>> Tap that 401k!! Have you seen Joe B.'s custom? It has a nice sloping top
>> tube and I think maybe 650b? You SHOULD treat yourself to a retirement
>> gift. All those years of saving in your retirement accounts was good
>> discipline and now you should not feel guilty for investing in a nice bike.
>> Riding has so many benefits both mental and physical that I think it would
>> be money well spent. If Joe sees this maybe he can tell you about is custom
>> and the process he went through the come up with the design.
>> Doug Hansford
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 1:53:23 PM UTC-4, Joel Stern wrote:
>>
>>> Ted, I have had 8 Rivendells before my accident 10 years ago, 4 were
>>> still with me.  Sold 3 of my last 4 as I thought I would not ride again but
>>> kept the Bleriot in the hope that I would as I bonded with the 650b.  Now
>>> retired and riding again and I have not touched my 401 money.  Maybe I
>>> deserve a treat.
>>>
>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:24 PM ted  wrote:
>>>
>> Hey Joel,

 Prices have certainly gone up since the Bleriot days, I think a lot of
 that is just years of inflation but still ...

 I encourage you to give the fine folks at RBW WH a call to discuss ride
 and handling of current models wrt your Bleriot.
 That said I would expect the AHH to be closer to your Bleriot but
 perhaps a bit more stable, and the Joe A and Atlantis to be more stable.

 regards
 ted

 On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 9:57:49 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>
> Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what
> that means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and
> Appaloosa and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these new
> MIT models are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom was
> just a tad more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase
> comfort, my back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he
> stability of the front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed a
> bit of a twitchy feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on
> but I don’t think that would have caused it.
>
> Thanks, Joel
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted  wrote:
>
>> Joel,
>>
>> The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis)
>> have significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
>> Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height
>> is smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
>> Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with
>> respect to a more horizontal tt model).
>> Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible
>> differences in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
>> The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I
>> presume wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I think
>> there are other threads that speak to how these versions ride and 
>> handling
>> compare, but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from 
>> the
>> rear axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.
>>
>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and
>>> the new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my
>>> Bleriot where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and 
>>> Appaloosa I
>>> would take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for those
>>> that follow this do any of these have a more relaxed 

Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Well Joe, now that is a good question. It goes back and forth., So I had
this revision surgery in December on my right and it is about 30% better
but if I use it to work around the house it flares. But now the left has
gotten worse due to my using it more and I just had an injection because it
was terrible and my thumb is locking (it did that on the other as well but
the surgery did take care of that). I have found the Albatross bars a
blessing for this, I can rest my hands in different positions and I wear
both hand braces called collums and old style leather and chochet gloves,
but I have to be careful because the meaty part just behind the thumb can
flare as well. I know i am going to have to address these again sooner than
later, seeing a different doc as the one that did his surgery tried
something called a mini tightrope, too hard to explain for now. He wants to
experiment by moving something around, hence a third surgery with another
2+ month recovery and just a hunch that it will help. So I am off to see a
highly regarded hand surgeon (I saw about 7 before the last surgery and
thought I picked the best). So short answer, they both can be terrible and
I can use the barcons without using my thumbs which saves me.  Sorry for
the long description, but I bet you understand.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 5:01 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Sounds like a plan, Joel, Mark will definitely show you the way to go.
>
> About the arthritis which I also have, is one hand worse than the other?
> My bad one is the right and if you look closely at my custom you'll see
> that the shifters are swapped. Most of my shifting is the rear and done
> with my left hand on an index thumby; the right is a Silver Power Ratchet
> which I don't use much, and when I do I push/pull with my whole hand to
> avoid thumb pain. Whichever kind you use - barcons are great - I recommend
> putting the most-used shifter in your strongest hand.
>
> Have fun Riv shopping and keep us posted!
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joe Bernard]

Sounds like a plan, Joel, Mark will definitely show you the way to go. 

About the arthritis which I also have, is one hand worse than the other? My bad 
one is the right and if you look closely at my custom you'll see that the 
shifters are swapped. Most of my shifting is the rear and done with my left 
hand on an index thumby; the right is a Silver Power Ratchet which I don't use 
much, and when I do I push/pull with my whole hand to avoid thumb pain. 
Whichever kind you use - barcons are great - I recommend putting the most-used 
shifter in your strongest hand.

Have fun Riv shopping and keep us posted!  

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

I don't know, I never bonded with 26" wheels, my AR was never a favorite
but it was nice just never a first choice.

I actually have an extra rear build up with a FW (which brings up the other
issue, do I want to go cassette, but I see no real reason too). Also, any
thumb shifters are out as I have basal joint arthritis, had 2 surgeries on
the right, the last one is not helping too much, had the other two
surgeries in 2009 and both failed within 5 years. So bar ends are good for
me, friction is fine, I have no real issue with index if I was to go to 8
or 9 speed which maybe is a consideration and then leave me with a double
instead of a triple. I have a few parts at home as I sold most on these
sites when I had lost most of my hope of riding again but parts are always
going to be available, I just may have to change some of my wants. I did
not know you can use sidepulls with the Atlantas but from reading it seems
you can use these or Cantis.

For $100 more I can get, if I decide on the Atlantis the current geometry
which may suit me better.

I will call and try to get Mark tomorrow as Mark has always been a great
asset.



On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 4:25 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> If you can do 26" wheels there's a 50cm Atlantis frame on the Riv site.
> You'll need to score new (or used from Craigslist) wheels, but this would
> keep wheels under the Bleriot for rebuilding that frame later.
>  https://www.rivbike.com/products/copy-of-50cm-atlantis-demo-bike
>
> PS. The latest 50cm Atlantis is 650B, this is a slightly older frame.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joe Bernard]

If you can do 26" wheels there's a 50cm Atlantis frame on the Riv site. You'll 
need to score new (or used from Craigslist) wheels, but this would keep wheels 
under the Bleriot for rebuilding that frame later.
 https://www.rivbike.com/products/copy-of-50cm-atlantis-demo-bike

PS. The latest 50cm Atlantis is 650B, this is a slightly older frame. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Joe, you pinned me, the lady like frame is hard for me but the Atlantis and
Appaloosa (should it come back in stock) are looking very nice to me.  My
thoughts are to use my components from the Bleriot, will never find the
Suntour stuff I have again, and if I love it then I can get some other
components for the Bleriot or sell the frame.  I do like having 2 bikes but
it is not a necessity anymore. If my hands don’t get better (I am ok on the
bike with them) I can sell my guitars and buy whatever I want.  Thanks
again Joe, great connecting with old iBob  and RBW friends again.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:53 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Joel,
>
> I've owned a 55 Bleriot. Nice bike, too long ago to remember steering but
> even then that frame was too talk for me and I'm certainly older/creakier
> now. I know there's another opinion on this thread about standover not
> being important, but it is to me..I like knowing when I pop of the saddle
> and put one foot down at a stop that nothing is landing on a toptube. It's
> better for getting on and off, too.
>
> On our height range that puts us on a 51 Appa or 50 Atlantis - basically
> the same bike - for diamond frames with some clearance, or a 55 Cheviot.
>
> For less money and WAY more clearance..Clem Smith L. I'll bet you would
> LOVE that bike. If you're an old school guy like me you'll struggle a bit
> with the "lady's bike" style, but I've gotten past that. It works; Grant
> has two of them (I don't think he ever bought an H); and as my friend who's
> a lady and rides one says, "High toptubes are stupid!" 
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joe Bernard]

Joel,

I've owned a 55 Bleriot. Nice bike, too long ago to remember steering but even 
then that frame was too talk for me and I'm certainly older/creakier now. I 
know there's another opinion on this thread about standover not being 
important, but it is to me..I like knowing when I pop of the saddle and put one 
foot down at a stop that nothing is landing on a toptube. It's better for 
getting on and off, too.

On our height range that puts us on a 51 Appa or 50 Atlantis - basically the 
same bike - for diamond frames with some clearance, or a 55 Cheviot. 

For less money and WAY more clearance..Clem Smith L. I'll bet you would LOVE 
that bike. If you're an old school guy like me you'll struggle a bit with the 
"lady's bike" style, but I've gotten past that. It works; Grant has two of them 
(I don't think he ever bought an H); and as my friend who's a lady and rides 
one says, "High toptubes are stupid!"  

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Indeed it is.  I was out before retirement after 2 back surgeries, hence my
fear of riding, but after 2 successful RFA treatments pain is controlled.
I used to be embarrassed when people asked what I do all day, now I just
say, I’m retired, whatever I want.  And now I can ride again, life is good.


On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:38 PM ted  wrote:

> Joel,
>
> I'm sure you deserve a 401k funded retirement treat. It's great you are
> able to ride again. I too am recently (~1.5yr) retired. Great deal aint it?
> Everybody should be so lucky.
>
> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 10:53:23 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>>
>> Ted, I have had 8 Rivendells before my accident 10 years ago, 4 were
>> still with me.  Sold 3 of my last 4 as I thought I would not ride again but
>> kept the Bleriot in the hope that I would as I bonded with the 650b.  Now
>> retired and riding again and I have not touched my 401 money.  Maybe I
>> deserve a treat.
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:24 PM ted  wrote:
>>
> Hey Joel,
>>>
>>> Prices have certainly gone up since the Bleriot days, I think a lot of
>>> that is just years of inflation but still ...
>>>
>>> I encourage you to give the fine folks at RBW WH a call to discuss ride
>>> and handling of current models wrt your Bleriot.
>>> That said I would expect the AHH to be closer to your Bleriot but
>>> perhaps a bit more stable, and the Joe A and Atlantis to be more stable.
>>>
>>> regards
>>> ted
>>>
>>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 9:57:49 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:

 Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what
 that means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and
 Appaloosa and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these new
 MIT models are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom was
 just a tad more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase
 comfort, my back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he
 stability of the front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed a
 bit of a twitchy feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on
 but I don’t think that would have caused it.

 Thanks, Joel

 On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted  wrote:

> Joel,
>
> The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis)
> have significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
> Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height
> is smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
> Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with
> respect to a more horizontal tt model).
> Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible
> differences in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
> The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I
> presume wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I think
> there are other threads that speak to how these versions ride and handling
> compare, but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from 
> the
> rear axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.
>
> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>>
>>
>> I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and
>> the new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my
>> Bleriot where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and Appaloosa 
>> I
>> would take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for those
>> that follow this do any of these have a more relaxed geometry or a more
>> comfortable ride than my Bleriot which is already comfortable? What can
>> anyone tell me about the sizing changes? When Grant measured me years 
>> ago I
>> believe he had my PBH to 83 or a bit more, while when I had help from my
>> wife today it was on first measurement 80.645 and on second at 81.28 and 
>> a
>> third at 82.5. Now when Grant measure me I thought I would pass out (well
>> not really but it was a bit drastic) and the bike had no extra standover
>> for me. The Bleriot has a bit of standover so I have no doubt that I 
>> could
>> probably go down a bit. It also looks like the TT have gotten even longer
>> on these bikes, not maybe the added degree of slope makes that a non 
>> issue
>> and maybe there is something there with position of the rider on these.
>> Do the longer chain stays contribute to more comfort?
>> I also ride upright.
>>
>> So I guess I am confused.
>>
>> Any input is appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks, Joel
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[ted]

Joel,

I'm sure you deserve a 401k funded retirement treat. It's great you are 
able to ride again. I too am recently (~1.5yr) retired. Great deal aint it? 
Everybody should be so lucky.

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 10:53:23 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>
> Ted, I have had 8 Rivendells before my accident 10 years ago, 4 were still 
> with me.  Sold 3 of my last 4 as I thought I would not ride again but kept 
> the Bleriot in the hope that I would as I bonded with the 650b.  Now 
> retired and riding again and I have not touched my 401 money.  Maybe I 
> deserve a treat.  
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:24 PM ted > 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey Joel,
>>
>> Prices have certainly gone up since the Bleriot days, I think a lot of 
>> that is just years of inflation but still ...
>>
>> I encourage you to give the fine folks at RBW WH a call to discuss ride 
>> and handling of current models wrt your Bleriot. 
>> That said I would expect the AHH to be closer to your Bleriot but perhaps 
>> a bit more stable, and the Joe A and Atlantis to be more stable. 
>>
>> regards
>> ted
>>
>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 9:57:49 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>>>
>>> Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what that 
>>> means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and Appaloosa 
>>> and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these new MIT models 
>>> are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom was just a tad 
>>> more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase comfort, my 
>>> back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he stability of the 
>>> front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed a bit of a twitchy 
>>> feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on but I don’t think 
>>> that would have caused it.  
>>>
>>> Thanks, Joel
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted  wrote:
>>>
 Joel,

 The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis) 
 have significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
 Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height 
 is smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
 Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with 
 respect to a more horizontal tt model).
 Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible 
 differences in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
 The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I 
 presume wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I think 
 there are other threads that speak to how these versions ride and handling 
 compare, but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from 
 the 
 rear axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.

 On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>
>
> I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and 
> the new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my 
> Bleriot where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and Appaloosa 
> I 
> would take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for those 
> that follow this do any of these have a more relaxed geometry or a more 
> comfortable ride than my Bleriot which is already comfortable? What can 
> anyone tell me about the sizing changes? When Grant measured me years ago 
> I 
> believe he had my PBH to 83 or a bit more, while when I had help from my 
> wife today it was on first measurement 80.645 and on second at 81.28 and 
> a 
> third at 82.5. Now when Grant measure me I thought I would pass out (well 
> not really but it was a bit drastic) and the bike had no extra standover 
> for me. The Bleriot has a bit of standover so I have no doubt that I 
> could 
> probably go down a bit. It also looks like the TT have gotten even longer 
> on these bikes, not maybe the added degree of slope makes that a non 
> issue 
> and maybe there is something there with position of the rider on these. 
> Do the longer chain stays contribute to more comfort? 
> I also ride upright.
>
> So I guess I am confused.
>
> Any input is appreciated.
>
> Thanks, Joel
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Joe, I think so too but no new ones for now.  It seems to be what I am
thinking about.  Not sure if you have had a Bleriot,  rode mine today, had
a close call, my fault and another with what I will call stability of the
front.  Just put on 42cm tires (has 32 Grand Boise before) but I know that
was not the issue.  So I would like a more comfortable if possible bike and
a soft stable ride.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:00 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Joel,
>
> About the production frames, I had a 51cm Appaloosa, great bike, I think
> you would love it.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

I’m waiting for him to get back to me thanks

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 3:24 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Speaking of which (sorry I'm not remembering everything and putting it all
> in one post), Rich Lesnik @ Riv is selling a very nice 51 Appa. Look for
> his post "mustard-gold Appaloosa" on this list.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Joe, absolutely beautiful, and a one of a kind.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:49 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> You mean this one?? Definitely long chainstays which was Grant's choice,
> and I picked the drop-toptube because I like the clearance and the look.
> The look gave me the heart seatlug and RBW decal up there in the air above
> the toptube where everyone can see it..swanky! For reference I'm about
> Joel's height and the measurements are (approximately) 54cm seattube and
> 63cm effective toptube. On paper the front sounds crazy long for my height,
> but in practice with the high-and-reaching-back bars I use it's perfect.
> Incredibly stable frame which still turns nicely, it's a great bike.
>
> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 11:12:11 AM UTC-7 Doug Hansford wrote:
>
>> Joel,
>> Tap that 401k!! Have you seen Joe B.'s custom? It has a nice sloping top
>> tube and I think maybe 650b? You SHOULD treat yourself to a retirement
>> gift. All those years of saving in your retirement accounts was good
>> discipline and now you should not feel guilty for investing in a nice bike.
>> Riding has so many benefits both mental and physical that I think it would
>> be money well spent. If Joe sees this maybe he can tell you about is custom
>> and the process he went through the come up with the design.
>> Doug Hansford
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 1:53:23 PM UTC-4, Joel Stern wrote:
>>
>>> Ted, I have had 8 Rivendells before my accident 10 years ago, 4 were
>>> still with me.  Sold 3 of my last 4 as I thought I would not ride again but
>>> kept the Bleriot in the hope that I would as I bonded with the 650b.  Now
>>> retired and riding again and I have not touched my 401 money.  Maybe I
>>> deserve a treat.
>>>
>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:24 PM ted  wrote:
>>>
>> Hey Joel,

 Prices have certainly gone up since the Bleriot days, I think a lot of
 that is just years of inflation but still ...

 I encourage you to give the fine folks at RBW WH a call to discuss ride
 and handling of current models wrt your Bleriot.
 That said I would expect the AHH to be closer to your Bleriot but
 perhaps a bit more stable, and the Joe A and Atlantis to be more stable.

 regards
 ted

 On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 9:57:49 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>
> Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what
> that means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and
> Appaloosa and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these new
> MIT models are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom was
> just a tad more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase
> comfort, my back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he
> stability of the front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed a
> bit of a twitchy feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on
> but I don’t think that would have caused it.
>
> Thanks, Joel
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted  wrote:
>
>> Joel,
>>
>> The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis)
>> have significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
>> Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height
>> is smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
>> Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with
>> respect to a more horizontal tt model).
>> Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible
>> differences in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
>> The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I
>> presume wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I think
>> there are other threads that speak to how these versions ride and 
>> handling
>> compare, but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from 
>> the
>> rear axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.
>>
>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and
>>> the new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my
>>> Bleriot where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and 
>>> Appaloosa I
>>> would take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for those
>>> that follow this do any of these have a more relaxed geometry or a more
>>> comfortable ride than my Bleriot which is already comfortable? What can
>>> anyone tell me about the sizing changes? When Grant measured me years 
>>> ago I
>>> believe he had my PBH to 83 or a bit more, while when I had help from my
>>> wife today it was on first measurement 80.645 and on second at 81.28 
>>> and a
>>> third at 82.5. Now when Grant measure me I thought I would pass out 
>>> (well

Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joe Bernard]

Speaking of which (sorry I'm not remembering everything and putting it all in 
one post), Rich Lesnik @ Riv is selling a very nice 51 Appa. Look for his post 
"mustard-gold Appaloosa" on this list. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joe Bernard]

Joel, 

About the production frames, I had a 51cm Appaloosa, great bike, I think you 
would love it. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Mark Roland]

Yes, you really no longer need to think in terms of "largest size" with the 
newer Rivendels. The idea behind that was based on the more traditional 
diamond frame with level or only slightly sloping top tube, so that you 
could get handlebars high. 
The newer frames account for that without needing to size up. The only 
dilemma some face now is being squarely in the middle of two sizes, since 
there is a lot of overlap. So for instance, I have a 52 Clem L and am 
waiting on a 56 Susie. Very very similar geometries, but I can comfortably 
fit either one.

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 1:17:55 PM UTC-4, Joel Stern wrote:
>
> Hi Doug, I have been buying the largest I could ride, that is why the ‘new 
> sizing’ confused me.  I am learning about how it relates to the TT newer 
> slope.  I think Grant had me at or close to 84, I got as high as about 
> 82.5.  Will try one more time later.  I agree with you on riding as large 
> as I can, I was very confused until some have pointed out the change in ti 
> TT, which would also make them measure longer unless I am confused on that 
> as well.  Think I will call Riv tomorrow.
>
> Thanks, Joel
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:10 PM Doug Hansford  > wrote:
>
>> Joel,
>> Funny about Grant measuring your PBH. I've never been to Rivendell but 
>> have talked to Grant about bikes by phone. He asked my PBH and I told him I 
>> measured it at 83 and he said "you're probably an 85". I think he figures 
>> most folks don't get all the way up to bone when they measure. I like 
>> having at least an inch clearance even though I can ride a bike with less, 
>> I'm always thinking about a quick dismount off of the saddle. My latest 
>> bike, a GT steel commuter build has a 32.5 inch stand over measurement and 
>> I have clearance.of more than an inch. So, I think Grant is actually right 
>> about my PBH being closer to 85 than 83. I'd say buy the largest frame you 
>> can comfortable straddle so that you can adjust reach with handlebar and 
>> stem changes. A too small bike I think limits what you can do for your 
>> cockpit options.
>> Doug Hansford
>>
>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 12:57:49 PM UTC-4, Joel Stern wrote:
>>>
>>> Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what that 
>>> means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and Appaloosa 
>>> and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these new MIT models 
>>> are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom was just a tad 
>>> more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase comfort, my 
>>> back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he stability of the 
>>> front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed a bit of a twitchy 
>>> feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on but I don’t think 
>>> that would have caused it.  
>>>
>>> Thanks, Joel
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted  wrote:
>>>
 Joel,

 The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis) 
 have significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
 Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height 
 is smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
 Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with 
 respect to a more horizontal tt model).
 Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible 
 differences in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
 The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I 
 presume wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I think 
 there are other threads that speak to how these versions ride and handling 
 compare, but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from 
 the 
 rear axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.

 On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>
>
> I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and 
> the new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my 
> Bleriot where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and Appaloosa 
> I 
> would take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for those 
> that follow this do any of these have a more relaxed geometry or a more 
> comfortable ride than my Bleriot which is already comfortable? What can 
> anyone tell me about the sizing changes? When Grant measured me years ago 
> I 
> believe he had my PBH to 83 or a bit more, while when I had help from my 
> wife today it was on first measurement 80.645 and on second at 81.28 and 
> a 
> third at 82.5. Now when Grant measure me I thought I would pass out (well 
> not really but it was a bit drastic) and the bike had no extra standover 
> for me. The Bleriot has a bit of standover so I have no doubt that I 
> could 
> probably go down a bit. It also looks like 

Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joe Bernard]

Here's a couple more photos. 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/3wpygKkdeVfaAzh47

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Joe Bernard?  I have not seen his custom but until I started riding again I
have not been active here.  Something to think about.  First I thought you
were talking about a Joe built, he did my 56cm Joel Green.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 2:12 PM Doug Hansford 
wrote:

> Joel,
> Tap that 401k!! Have you seen Joe B.'s custom? It has a nice sloping top
> tube and I think maybe 650b? You SHOULD treat yourself to a retirement
> gift. All those years of saving in your retirement accounts was good
> discipline and now you should not feel guilty for investing in a nice bike.
> Riding has so many benefits both mental and physical that I think it would
> be money well spent. If Joe sees this maybe he can tell you about is custom
> and the process he went through the come up with the design.
> Doug Hansford
>
> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 1:53:23 PM UTC-4, Joel Stern wrote:
>>
>> Ted, I have had 8 Rivendells before my accident 10 years ago, 4 were
>> still with me.  Sold 3 of my last 4 as I thought I would not ride again but
>> kept the Bleriot in the hope that I would as I bonded with the 650b.  Now
>> retired and riding again and I have not touched my 401 money.  Maybe I
>> deserve a treat.
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:24 PM ted  wrote:
>>
> Hey Joel,
>>>
>>> Prices have certainly gone up since the Bleriot days, I think a lot of
>>> that is just years of inflation but still ...
>>>
>>> I encourage you to give the fine folks at RBW WH a call to discuss ride
>>> and handling of current models wrt your Bleriot.
>>> That said I would expect the AHH to be closer to your Bleriot but
>>> perhaps a bit more stable, and the Joe A and Atlantis to be more stable.
>>>
>>> regards
>>> ted
>>>
>>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 9:57:49 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:

 Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what
 that means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and
 Appaloosa and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these new
 MIT models are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom was
 just a tad more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase
 comfort, my back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he
 stability of the front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed a
 bit of a twitchy feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on
 but I don’t think that would have caused it.

 Thanks, Joel

 On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted  wrote:

> Joel,
>
> The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis)
> have significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
> Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height
> is smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
> Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with
> respect to a more horizontal tt model).
> Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible
> differences in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
> The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I
> presume wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I think
> there are other threads that speak to how these versions ride and handling
> compare, but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from 
> the
> rear axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.
>
> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>>
>>
>> I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and
>> the new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my
>> Bleriot where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and Appaloosa 
>> I
>> would take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for those
>> that follow this do any of these have a more relaxed geometry or a more
>> comfortable ride than my Bleriot which is already comfortable? What can
>> anyone tell me about the sizing changes? When Grant measured me years 
>> ago I
>> believe he had my PBH to 83 or a bit more, while when I had help from my
>> wife today it was on first measurement 80.645 and on second at 81.28 and 
>> a
>> third at 82.5. Now when Grant measure me I thought I would pass out (well
>> not really but it was a bit drastic) and the bike had no extra standover
>> for me. The Bleriot has a bit of standover so I have no doubt that I 
>> could
>> probably go down a bit. It also looks like the TT have gotten even longer
>> on these bikes, not maybe the added degree of slope makes that a non 
>> issue
>> and maybe there is something there with position of the rider on these.
>> Do the longer chain stays contribute to more comfort?
>> I also ride upright.
>>
>> So I guess I am confused.
>>
>> Any input is appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks, 

Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Doug Hansford]

Joel,
Tap that 401k!! Have you seen Joe B.'s custom? It has a nice sloping top 
tube and I think maybe 650b? You SHOULD treat yourself to a retirement 
gift. All those years of saving in your retirement accounts was good 
discipline and now you should not feel guilty for investing in a nice bike. 
Riding has so many benefits both mental and physical that I think it would 
be money well spent. If Joe sees this maybe he can tell you about is custom 
and the process he went through the come up with the design.
Doug Hansford

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 1:53:23 PM UTC-4, Joel Stern wrote:
>
> Ted, I have had 8 Rivendells before my accident 10 years ago, 4 were still 
> with me.  Sold 3 of my last 4 as I thought I would not ride again but kept 
> the Bleriot in the hope that I would as I bonded with the 650b.  Now 
> retired and riding again and I have not touched my 401 money.  Maybe I 
> deserve a treat.  
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:24 PM ted > 
> wrote:
>
>> Hey Joel,
>>
>> Prices have certainly gone up since the Bleriot days, I think a lot of 
>> that is just years of inflation but still ...
>>
>> I encourage you to give the fine folks at RBW WH a call to discuss ride 
>> and handling of current models wrt your Bleriot. 
>> That said I would expect the AHH to be closer to your Bleriot but perhaps 
>> a bit more stable, and the Joe A and Atlantis to be more stable. 
>>
>> regards
>> ted
>>
>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 9:57:49 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>>>
>>> Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what that 
>>> means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and Appaloosa 
>>> and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these new MIT models 
>>> are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom was just a tad 
>>> more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase comfort, my 
>>> back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he stability of the 
>>> front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed a bit of a twitchy 
>>> feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on but I don’t think 
>>> that would have caused it.  
>>>
>>> Thanks, Joel
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted  wrote:
>>>
 Joel,

 The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis) 
 have significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
 Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height 
 is smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
 Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with 
 respect to a more horizontal tt model).
 Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible 
 differences in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
 The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I 
 presume wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I think 
 there are other threads that speak to how these versions ride and handling 
 compare, but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from 
 the 
 rear axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.

 On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>
>
> I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and 
> the new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my 
> Bleriot where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and Appaloosa 
> I 
> would take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for those 
> that follow this do any of these have a more relaxed geometry or a more 
> comfortable ride than my Bleriot which is already comfortable? What can 
> anyone tell me about the sizing changes? When Grant measured me years ago 
> I 
> believe he had my PBH to 83 or a bit more, while when I had help from my 
> wife today it was on first measurement 80.645 and on second at 81.28 and 
> a 
> third at 82.5. Now when Grant measure me I thought I would pass out (well 
> not really but it was a bit drastic) and the bike had no extra standover 
> for me. The Bleriot has a bit of standover so I have no doubt that I 
> could 
> probably go down a bit. It also looks like the TT have gotten even longer 
> on these bikes, not maybe the added degree of slope makes that a non 
> issue 
> and maybe there is something there with position of the rider on these. 
> Do the longer chain stays contribute to more comfort? 
> I also ride upright.
>
> So I guess I am confused.
>
> Any input is appreciated.
>
> Thanks, Joel
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Ted, I have had 8 Rivendells before my accident 10 years ago, 4 were still
with me.  Sold 3 of my last 4 as I thought I would not ride again but kept
the Bleriot in the hope that I would as I bonded with the 650b.  Now
retired and riding again and I have not touched my 401 money.  Maybe I
deserve a treat.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:24 PM ted  wrote:

> Hey Joel,
>
> Prices have certainly gone up since the Bleriot days, I think a lot of
> that is just years of inflation but still ...
>
> I encourage you to give the fine folks at RBW WH a call to discuss ride
> and handling of current models wrt your Bleriot.
> That said I would expect the AHH to be closer to your Bleriot but perhaps
> a bit more stable, and the Joe A and Atlantis to be more stable.
>
> regards
> ted
>
> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 9:57:49 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>>
>> Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what that
>> means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and Appaloosa
>> and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these new MIT models
>> are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom was just a tad
>> more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase comfort, my
>> back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he stability of the
>> front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed a bit of a twitchy
>> feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on but I don’t think
>> that would have caused it.
>>
>> Thanks, Joel
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted  wrote:
>>
>>> Joel,
>>>
>>> The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis) have
>>> significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
>>> Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height is
>>> smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
>>> Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with
>>> respect to a more horizontal tt model).
>>> Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible
>>> differences in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
>>> The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I presume
>>> wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I think there are
>>> other threads that speak to how these versions ride and handling compare,
>>> but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from the rear
>>> axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:


 I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and the
 new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my Bleriot
 where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and Appaloosa I would
 take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for those that
 follow this do any of these have a more relaxed geometry or a more
 comfortable ride than my Bleriot which is already comfortable? What can
 anyone tell me about the sizing changes? When Grant measured me years ago I
 believe he had my PBH to 83 or a bit more, while when I had help from my
 wife today it was on first measurement 80.645 and on second at 81.28 and a
 third at 82.5. Now when Grant measure me I thought I would pass out (well
 not really but it was a bit drastic) and the bike had no extra standover
 for me. The Bleriot has a bit of standover so I have no doubt that I could
 probably go down a bit. It also looks like the TT have gotten even longer
 on these bikes, not maybe the added degree of slope makes that a non issue
 and maybe there is something there with position of the rider on these.
 Do the longer chain stays contribute to more comfort?
 I also ride upright.

 So I guess I am confused.

 Any input is appreciated.

 Thanks, Joel

>>> --
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>>> .
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>> If you forward this email, please highlight and delete the forwarding
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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[ted]

Hey Joel,

Prices have certainly gone up since the Bleriot days, I think a lot of that 
is just years of inflation but still ...

I encourage you to give the fine folks at RBW WH a call to discuss ride and 
handling of current models wrt your Bleriot. 
That said I would expect the AHH to be closer to your Bleriot but perhaps a 
bit more stable, and the Joe A and Atlantis to be more stable. 

regards
ted

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 9:57:49 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>
> Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what that 
> means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and Appaloosa 
> and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these new MIT models 
> are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom was just a tad 
> more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase comfort, my 
> back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he stability of the 
> front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed a bit of a twitchy 
> feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on but I don’t think 
> that would have caused it.  
>
> Thanks, Joel
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted > 
> wrote:
>
>> Joel,
>>
>> The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis) have 
>> significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
>> Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height is 
>> smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
>> Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with 
>> respect to a more horizontal tt model).
>> Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible differences 
>> in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
>> The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I presume 
>> wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I think there are 
>> other threads that speak to how these versions ride and handling compare, 
>> but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from the rear 
>> axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.
>>
>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and the 
>>> new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my Bleriot 
>>> where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and Appaloosa I would 
>>> take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for those that 
>>> follow this do any of these have a more relaxed geometry or a more 
>>> comfortable ride than my Bleriot which is already comfortable? What can 
>>> anyone tell me about the sizing changes? When Grant measured me years ago I 
>>> believe he had my PBH to 83 or a bit more, while when I had help from my 
>>> wife today it was on first measurement 80.645 and on second at 81.28 and a 
>>> third at 82.5. Now when Grant measure me I thought I would pass out (well 
>>> not really but it was a bit drastic) and the bike had no extra standover 
>>> for me. The Bleriot has a bit of standover so I have no doubt that I could 
>>> probably go down a bit. It also looks like the TT have gotten even longer 
>>> on these bikes, not maybe the added degree of slope makes that a non issue 
>>> and maybe there is something there with position of the rider on these. 
>>> Do the longer chain stays contribute to more comfort? 
>>> I also ride upright.
>>>
>>> So I guess I am confused.
>>>
>>> Any input is appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks, Joel
>>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/WdEHPCJKVGU/unsubscribe
>> .
>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com .
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/b07f499d-a176-4009-b0b3-152c3efb7df4o%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
> -- 
> ~IMPORTANT~ Note to all~~ EMAIL ETIQUETTE
> If you forward this email, please highlight and delete the forwarding 
> history, which includes my email address and maybe others. It is a courtesy 
> to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all 
> over the world. Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from obtaining 
> addresses, prevents viruses from being propagated, and limits the 
> proliferation of spam. Also, please use the “BCC” area instead of “TO” and 
> “CC” when forwarding to several people at once.
> ~~Thank you~~
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Hi Doug, I have been buying the largest I could ride, that is why the ‘new
sizing’ confused me.  I am learning about how it relates to the TT newer
slope.  I think Grant had me at or close to 84, I got as high as about
82.5.  Will try one more time later.  I agree with you on riding as large
as I can, I was very confused until some have pointed out the change in ti
TT, which would also make them measure longer unless I am confused on that
as well.  Think I will call Riv tomorrow.

Thanks, Joel


On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 1:10 PM Doug Hansford 
wrote:

> Joel,
> Funny about Grant measuring your PBH. I've never been to Rivendell but
> have talked to Grant about bikes by phone. He asked my PBH and I told him I
> measured it at 83 and he said "you're probably an 85". I think he figures
> most folks don't get all the way up to bone when they measure. I like
> having at least an inch clearance even though I can ride a bike with less,
> I'm always thinking about a quick dismount off of the saddle. My latest
> bike, a GT steel commuter build has a 32.5 inch stand over measurement and
> I have clearance.of more than an inch. So, I think Grant is actually right
> about my PBH being closer to 85 than 83. I'd say buy the largest frame you
> can comfortable straddle so that you can adjust reach with handlebar and
> stem changes. A too small bike I think limits what you can do for your
> cockpit options.
> Doug Hansford
>
> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 12:57:49 PM UTC-4, Joel Stern wrote:
>>
>> Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what that
>> means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and Appaloosa
>> and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these new MIT models
>> are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom was just a tad
>> more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase comfort, my
>> back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he stability of the
>> front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed a bit of a twitchy
>> feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on but I don’t think
>> that would have caused it.
>>
>> Thanks, Joel
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted  wrote:
>>
>>> Joel,
>>>
>>> The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis) have
>>> significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
>>> Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height is
>>> smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
>>> Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with
>>> respect to a more horizontal tt model).
>>> Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible
>>> differences in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
>>> The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I presume
>>> wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I think there are
>>> other threads that speak to how these versions ride and handling compare,
>>> but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from the rear
>>> axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:


 I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and the
 new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my Bleriot
 where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and Appaloosa I would
 take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for those that
 follow this do any of these have a more relaxed geometry or a more
 comfortable ride than my Bleriot which is already comfortable? What can
 anyone tell me about the sizing changes? When Grant measured me years ago I
 believe he had my PBH to 83 or a bit more, while when I had help from my
 wife today it was on first measurement 80.645 and on second at 81.28 and a
 third at 82.5. Now when Grant measure me I thought I would pass out (well
 not really but it was a bit drastic) and the bike had no extra standover
 for me. The Bleriot has a bit of standover so I have no doubt that I could
 probably go down a bit. It also looks like the TT have gotten even longer
 on these bikes, not maybe the added degree of slope makes that a non issue
 and maybe there is something there with position of the rider on these.
 Do the longer chain stays contribute to more comfort?
 I also ride upright.

 So I guess I am confused.

 Any input is appreciated.

 Thanks, Joel

>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the
>>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/WdEHPCJKVGU/unsubscribe
>>> .
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to
>>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> 

Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Doug Hansford]

Joel,
Funny about Grant measuring your PBH. I've never been to Rivendell but have 
talked to Grant about bikes by phone. He asked my PBH and I told him I 
measured it at 83 and he said "you're probably an 85". I think he figures 
most folks don't get all the way up to bone when they measure. I like 
having at least an inch clearance even though I can ride a bike with less, 
I'm always thinking about a quick dismount off of the saddle. My latest 
bike, a GT steel commuter build has a 32.5 inch stand over measurement and 
I have clearance.of more than an inch. So, I think Grant is actually right 
about my PBH being closer to 85 than 83. I'd say buy the largest frame you 
can comfortable straddle so that you can adjust reach with handlebar and 
stem changes. A too small bike I think limits what you can do for your 
cockpit options.
Doug Hansford

On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 12:57:49 PM UTC-4, Joel Stern wrote:
>
> Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what that 
> means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and Appaloosa 
> and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these new MIT models 
> are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom was just a tad 
> more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase comfort, my 
> back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he stability of the 
> front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed a bit of a twitchy 
> feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on but I don’t think 
> that would have caused it.  
>
> Thanks, Joel
>
> On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted > 
> wrote:
>
>> Joel,
>>
>> The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis) have 
>> significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
>> Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height is 
>> smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
>> Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with 
>> respect to a more horizontal tt model).
>> Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible differences 
>> in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
>> The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I presume 
>> wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I think there are 
>> other threads that speak to how these versions ride and handling compare, 
>> but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from the rear 
>> axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.
>>
>> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and the 
>>> new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my Bleriot 
>>> where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and Appaloosa I would 
>>> take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for those that 
>>> follow this do any of these have a more relaxed geometry or a more 
>>> comfortable ride than my Bleriot which is already comfortable? What can 
>>> anyone tell me about the sizing changes? When Grant measured me years ago I 
>>> believe he had my PBH to 83 or a bit more, while when I had help from my 
>>> wife today it was on first measurement 80.645 and on second at 81.28 and a 
>>> third at 82.5. Now when Grant measure me I thought I would pass out (well 
>>> not really but it was a bit drastic) and the bike had no extra standover 
>>> for me. The Bleriot has a bit of standover so I have no doubt that I could 
>>> probably go down a bit. It also looks like the TT have gotten even longer 
>>> on these bikes, not maybe the added degree of slope makes that a non issue 
>>> and maybe there is something there with position of the rider on these. 
>>> Do the longer chain stays contribute to more comfort? 
>>> I also ride upright.
>>>
>>> So I guess I am confused.
>>>
>>> Any input is appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks, Joel
>>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/WdEHPCJKVGU/unsubscribe
>> .
>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to 
>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com .
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/b07f499d-a176-4009-b0b3-152c3efb7df4o%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
> -- 
> ~IMPORTANT~ Note to all~~ EMAIL ETIQUETTE
> If you forward this email, please highlight and delete the forwarding 
> history, which includes my email address and maybe others. It is a courtesy 
> to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all 
> over the world. Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from 

Re: [RBW] Re: 650b new Rivendell models (to me)

[Joel Stern]

Ted, thanks.  I am beginning to understand the slopping TT and what that
means. From what I am reading I would be a 51 on the Homer and Appaloosa
and a 50 on the Atlantis.  My Bleriot was a bargain as these new MIT models
are snout what I paid for my first Road, and my next custom was just a tad
more.  The Longer chain stays would be welcome if the increase comfort, my
back would appreciate that.  I am also curious about he stability of the
front end, the Bleriot is good but just today I noticed a bit of a twitchy
feel which could have been me.  I have new 42mm tires on but I don’t think
that would have caused it.

Thanks, Joel

On Sun, Jun 28, 2020 at 12:46 PM ted  wrote:

> Joel,
>
> The top tubes of most MIT Rivs (including the MIT AHH and Atlantis) have
> significantly more slope than the older models like your Bleriot.
> Therefore the size for a given bar height with respect to seat height is
> smaller, and ones proper size based on pbh is smaller.
> Stand over is increased by about half the difference in size (with respect
> to a more horizontal tt model).
> Just changing the top tube slope should not cause perceptible differences
> in the ride qualities of an otherwise identical design.
> The new MIT Atlantis and AHH also have longer chain stays (and I presume
> wheelbases) than the earlier Toyo and Waterford versions. I think there are
> other threads that speak to how these versions ride and handling compare,
> but a short answer would be longer wb and sitting further from the rear
> axle should give a smoother ride over bumps.
>
> On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 7:10:42 AM UTC-7, Joel Stern wrote:
>>
>>
>> I was really confused at first at the A Homer Hilson, Appaloosa and the
>> new Atlantis. The sizing is very different than of old, like for my Bleriot
>> where I ride a 55cm bike, looks like on the Hilson and Appaloosa I would
>> take a 51cm and on the new Atlantis a 50. So my question for those that
>> follow this do any of these have a more relaxed geometry or a more
>> comfortable ride than my Bleriot which is already comfortable? What can
>> anyone tell me about the sizing changes? When Grant measured me years ago I
>> believe he had my PBH to 83 or a bit more, while when I had help from my
>> wife today it was on first measurement 80.645 and on second at 81.28 and a
>> third at 82.5. Now when Grant measure me I thought I would pass out (well
>> not really but it was a bit drastic) and the bike had no extra standover
>> for me. The Bleriot has a bit of standover so I have no doubt that I could
>> probably go down a bit. It also looks like the TT have gotten even longer
>> on these bikes, not maybe the added degree of slope makes that a non issue
>> and maybe there is something there with position of the rider on these.
>> Do the longer chain stays contribute to more comfort?
>> I also ride upright.
>>
>> So I guess I am confused.
>>
>> Any input is appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks, Joel
>>
> --
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> 
> .
>
-- 
~IMPORTANT~ Note to all~~ EMAIL ETIQUETTE
If you forward this email, please highlight and delete the forwarding
history, which includes my email address and maybe others. It is a courtesy
to me and others who may not wish to have their email addresses sent all
over the world. Erasing the history helps prevent Spammers from obtaining
addresses, prevents viruses from being propagated, and limits the
proliferation of spam. Also, please use the “BCC” area instead of “TO” and
“CC” when forwarding to several people at once.
~~Thank you~~

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