Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Sindelar Solar]

Well, Jerry, I guess I'm up to speed now, thanks... It's just that your 
explanation here wasn't what I asked about. I was asking about your 
words that "rotating them reduces the effect [of internal resistance to 
charge and even discharge] and may in time help to improve the battery 
life" - I had not heard this, and I also asked how you rotate strings - 
the order of batteries within a string? Mixing batteries among strings? 
Simply rotating the lead positive cell in each string?


So I ask again - is there an online resource you can suggest, so we can 
learn more?


Thanks, Allan

On 11/21/2018 8:21 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote:

Allan
I have been involved in off grid since the late 70's, l guess l have 
picked up a thing or two. As batteries age most will require higher 
voltage to reach the same specific gravity and will have a lower 
voltage under a load. This is the result of resistance with in the 
battery. This battery may still be good and just needs a good charge 
to get it back to a more normal state.
The entire wire harness from where it leaves the point of charge has 
it's own resistance, every connection, cable end, wire all of it has 
resistance and measuring  this is not as easy as you may think, you 
need to put a preset load on the bank measure the complete circuit 
voltage, now do the same under charge, measure  each battery note 
everything and once done with all the seperate banks you can see where 
the higher resistance is. This is why making all the cables the same 
length and same size, l have seen some cables soldered to reduce 
resistance. This in a long round about reason is why fewer bigger 
banks is better then more smaller batteries. I can continue but you 
should be up to speed now

Jerry

 Original message 
From: Sindelar Solar 

Jerry,

You write "I'm sure you know this..." but I don't know it. I don't 
think I have heard this before, as you have presented it.


How do you rotate strings? Where did you learn this? Is there an 
online source that you can provide?


Thanks, Allan

On 11/20/2018 6:21 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote:

Wrenches, Drake
You may consider contacting "Batcap" and bank if they have a best 
practice for the battery configuration, this might be it but at least 
a starting point. I have had multi string batteries that seamed to 
like being rotated through the bank, sounds like alot of work and it 
is but this will swap higher resistance strings for lower ones. I'm 
sure you know this but each battery has internal resistance to charge 
and even discharge so rotating them reduces the effect and may in 
time help to improve the battery life.

Jerry
--


*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Need direct-to-decking mounting foot recommendation

[Sam Haraldson]

> - I am researching if we could integrate the EZ-foot with the Snap-N-Rack,
>
William,

For metal roof scenarios where rafter finding isn't an option we use EZ
Feet and then attach SnapNrack rails to them.  It's a very good solution
just be sure to note how much of the vertical portion of the EZ Foot
interfaces with the rail.  You can't pull the rail up to the top of the
foot completely.  This is hard to explain but easy to see once installing.

Sam
OnSite Energy

>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Kienan Maxfield]

Dan,

I have been living on Ni-Fe batteries for several years now and I have somewhat 
mixed feelings. I love them but I also dislike some aspects of them. First of 
all, as everyone mentions, they have a very low round-trip Wh efficiency, and 
secondly, they do use a lot of water. Otherwise, they are quite good. Iron 
Edison is great with tech support and they have the voltage parameters figured 
out really well. I believe that there are a lot of myths out there about Ni-Fe, 
but from what I've seen and heard, if you can afford them, if you can make sure 
to have an oversized PV array, and if you have time to top them off with 
distilled water every month (never skip a month!), they are a really great 
battery.

If you do use Ni-Fe, I have a few suggestions/tips...


  *   First of all, never try hydro-caps with these batteries!!! I found mixed 
information on this one so I called them up and the owner of the Hydro-caps 
company claimed that they are compatible with Ni-Fe so I figured I'd give them 
a try. The Hydro-caps started to melt and they failed to release any of the 
pressure. This caused two of the batteries to explode. Thankfully I had two 
extra identical Ni-Fe batteries so I just switched them out as an experiment 
(and removed all the Hydro-caps) and my system is running fine.

  *   Iron-Edison sells an "auto watering system" and a compatible "water 
cart." I highly recommend this accessory, but of course, you (or the customer) 
only fill the batteries while you or the customer is carefully monitoring it. 
You never leave it going to "keep them topped off. If you have this system 
installed then watering the batteries is so easy. It's a breeze.  If you're 
filling these by hand then forget it... they would be terrible...

  *   They also sell and recommend a deionizing filter that is supposedly good 
enough for purifying the water for the battery. This would cut the cost of the 
distilled water and since Iron Edison is the one holding the warranty, I have a 
fairly good level of confidence that it won't hurt the battery. If it did end 
up hurting the battery, it wouldn't void the warranty.

  *   My batteries do get very cold (perhaps 10°F inside the electrolyte) and 
they don't seem to mind too much. Perhaps they do have a somewhat lower 
capacity.

  *   Make sure they aren't undersized or else they'll struggle with the surge 
loads.

  *   The PV array needs to be quite large. Make sure that the PV array can 
produce at least a C/6 at the nominal battery voltage, and C/5 or C/4 is better 
if the customer will be running much during the day. In other words, if you 
have a 500 Ah 48V bank you should make sure that the array is an absolute 
minimum of 4 kW (500 * 48 / 6 = 4,000). These batteries need a hard charge 
every now and then or else they start to act like they are going bad. If you 
take a battery that seems to be going bad and you give it a really good hard 
charge then they often come right back and there is nothing wrong with them.

  *   I wouldn't use these on a grid-tied system.

  *   I have always been skeptical about pre-packaged systems. Iron Edison 
seems like a good company but I still don't know if I like the pre-packaged 
idea.

  *   After taking my previous points into consideration, if the customer is 
still leaning that way and they had the budget, I wouldn't hesitate to use a 
Ni-Fe, but on the other hand, most people would weigh the factors and decide 
that it's too much up-front investment, and/or too much maintenance. Many who 
are willing to do the maintenance don't have the funds, and many who have the 
funds wouldn't be okay with the maintenance. For the first case, Lead-Acid is 
definitely the way to go, and for the second case, LiFe-PO4 is better. That 
being said there are a few people who will weigh all the factors and still 
gladly go for the Ni-Fe because if you go install a Lithium battery tomorrow, 
my Ni-Fe battery will still most likely be alive and strong when your lithium 
battery goes out.

I hope this helps a little!

Thanks,
Kienan



Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
jerrysgarage01 
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 8:30 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

Wrenches
I have used Iron Edison Batteries and 12 volts is tough but l have had no 
issues at 48, you can set the high side voltage enough to work well. They are a 
very thirsty battery technology but may last for ever. Round trip efficiency is 
70% at best so a larger array is required and the batteries don't like it to 
cold either.
Jerry



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Ken Schaal 
Date: 11/21/18 11:36 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

Hey alexis.
Any thoughts regarding these comments about Ni-fi 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[jay]

As we are talking about the IronEdison batteries.
I checked their site about lithium and they claim to have a BMS that will 
communicate with Outback.
I didn’t think anybody had comm with OB?
Can anyone confirm that?

jay 
Peltz power

> On Nov 21, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Ken Schaal  wrote:
> 
> Hey alexis.
> Any thoughts regarding these comments about Ni-fi batteries?
> Ur running them DC direct?
> Hope all is well. Ken
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:25 PM David Katz   wrote:
> AEE Solar sold NiFe batteries from Russia in the late 1990s.  They last a 
> long time but were hard to use with inverters.  A 12 volt pack has 10 cells. 
> Each cell reaches full charge at 1.7 volts so the pack would be at 17 volts. 
> that is 68 volts in a 48 volt pack.  inverters turn off for over-voltage 
> before that.  When they are operating the cells are at 1.2 volts.  The charge 
> efficiency is about 60% when you look at watt hours in vs. watt hours out.  
> They also use a lot of distilled water.  I had a set that required watering 
> every 3 weeks.  I did not keep up with watering once and one of the cells 
> exploded when the water level got below the plates.
> I would suggest L-ion batteries instead.
> David Katz
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Ray  > wrote:
> Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard to get 
> right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really expensive 
> to boot.  I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have replaced some 
> sets that customers were unhappy with.  They seem to work OK, only if there 
> are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized large enough.  
> Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really under size them, 
> which only exasperates the above issues.
> 
> There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely adopted 
> by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and I understand the train 
> industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging available, so 
> efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type loads with very 
> little surge.
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com 
>  wrote:
>> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre 
>> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe 
>> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with 
>> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd 
>> run it by you folks for an update..
>> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>> 
>> db
>> 
>> 
>> Dan Brown
>> Foxfire Energy Corp.
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> (802)-483-2564
>> www.Foxfire-Energy.com 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[jay]

HI Ray,

I’ll add that they use lots of water requiring lots of maintenance.
Their efficiency is between 70 and 80%.
The reason that the railroad and telecomm have used them in remote applications 
is that chemistry doesn’t care about cold or hot. 


And given that they cost (95%) almost as much as a top end Lithium battery, I’d 
go for the Lithium if someone has that kind of cash to throw around.

Jay

Peltz Power.



> On Nov 21, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Ray  wrote:
> 
> Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard to get 
> right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really expensive 
> to boot.  I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have replaced some 
> sets that customers were unhappy with.  They seem to work OK, only if there 
> are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized large enough.  
> Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really under size them, 
> which only exasperates the above issues.
> 
> There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely adopted 
> by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and I understand the train 
> industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging available, so 
> efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type loads with very 
> little surge.
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com 
>  wrote:
>> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre 
>> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe 
>> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with 
>> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd 
>> run it by you folks for an update..
>> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>> 
>> db
>> 
>> 
>> Dan Brown
>> Foxfire Energy Corp.
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> (802)-483-2564
>> www.Foxfire-Energy.com 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

IE has been good with their LFP and Schneider spread sheet data for easy
system config. I can't see Nife anymore. Gobble 
Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018
10:55:56 -0700,  wrote:  Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring
about installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing
strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I
have done a few searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I
run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update.. Thanks,
and Happy Turkey Day.   db   
Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable
Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com [3]  -- 




Links:
--
[1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2]
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
[3] http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[jerrysgarage01]

WrenchesI have used Iron Edison Batteries and 12 volts is tough but l have had 
no issues at 48, you can set the high side voltage enough to work well. They 
are a very thirsty battery technology but may last for ever. Round trip 
efficiency is 70% at best so a larger array is required and the batteries don't 
like it to cold either.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Ken Schaal  
Date: 11/21/18  11:36 AM  (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches 
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? 
Hey alexis.Any thoughts regarding these comments about Ni-fi batteries?Ur 
running them DC direct?Hope all is well. KenOn Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:25 PM David 
Katz  wrote:
  

  
  
Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard
  to get right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they
  are really expensive to boot.  I've never sold them for these
  reasons, but I have replaced some sets that customers were unhappy
  with.  They seem to work OK, only if there are no large surge
  loads, and the battery and array are sized large enough. 
  Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really under size
  them, which only exasperates the above issues.
There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been
  widely adopted by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and
  I understand the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap
  on grid charging available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B)
  they have telecomm type loads with very little surge.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 11/21/18 10:55 AM,
  d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:


  
  
Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about
  installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall
  hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall
  the specifics. I have done a few searches with mixed results..
  And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd
  run it by you folks for an update..
 Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.


db




  Dan Brown
  Foxfire Energy Corp.
  Renewable Energy Systems
  (802)-483-2564
  www.Foxfire-Energy.com

  
  
  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[jerrysgarage01]

AllanI have been involved in off grid since the late 70's, l guess l have 
picked up a thing or two. As batteries age most will require higher voltage to 
reach the same specific gravity and will have a lower voltage under a load. 
This is the result of resistance with in the battery. This battery may still be 
good and just needs a good charge to get it back to a more normal state.The 
entire wire harness from where it leaves the point of charge has it's own 
resistance e, every connection, cable end, wire all of it has resistance and 
measuring  this is not as easy as you may think, you need to put a preset load 
on the bank measure the complete circuit voltage, now do the same under charge, 
measure  each battery note everything and once done with all the seperate banks 
you can see where the higher resistance is. This is why making all the cables 
the same length and same size, l have seen some cables soldered to reduce 
resistance. This in a long round about reason is why fewer bigger banks is 
better then more smaller batteries. I can continue but you should be up to 
speed nowJerrySent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Sindelar Solar 
 Date: 11/21/18  11:54 AM  (GMT-08:00) To: 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM 
Jerry,
You write "I'm sure you know this..." but I don't know it. I
  don't think I have heard this before, as you have presented it. 

How do you rotate strings? Where did you learn this? Is there an
  online source that you can provide?
Thanks, Allan

On 11/20/2018 6:21 PM, jerrysgarage01
  wrote:


  
  Wrenches, Drake
  You may consider contacting "Batcap" and bank if they have a
best practice for the battery configuration, this might be it
but at least a starting point. I have had multi string batteries
that seamed to like being rotated through the bank, sounds like
alot of work and it is but this will swap higher resistance
strings for lower ones. I'm sure you know this but each battery
has internal resistance to charge and even discharge so rotating
them reduces the effect and may in time help to improve the
battery life. 
  Jerry
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
Sent from my
  Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
  
  
  
  
 Original message 
From: Drake  
Date: 11/20/18 8:41 AM (GMT-08:00) 
To: RE-wrenches  
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM 


  
  Hello Wrenches,
  
  An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V
  Deep
  cycle batteries of the
  Batcap
  
  brand.
  
  The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to
  produce
  500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are
  then
  wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank. 
  
  The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is
  about 5
  years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these
  batteries
  have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high
  expectations for these batteries being around for a while. 
  
  My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series -
  parallel
  configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a
  bus
  bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them
  might
  cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is
  worth
  putting into this bank? $0?
  
  The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong
  installer.
  He could use some help. What would you do in this situation?
  Rewire the
  bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills.
  
  Thanks,
  
  Drake 
  
  Drake Chamberlin
  Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
740-448-7328
  http://athens-electric.com/
  
  
  
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-- 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  


  
Allan Sindelar
  al...@sindelarsolar.com
  NABCEP Certified PV Installation
Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Darryl Thayer]

I concur with the other writers. They have low charge efficiency, Although
that is not a killer.  the voltages are as David says, but the discharge
drops below 1.2 volts with surges.  I have heard of a battery fire with one
set, perhaps it was due to low water as David suggest.  They seem to need a
lot of water,  The only special value is they do not freeze.  However the
output current drops when cold.

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 12:35 PM  wrote:

> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre
> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe
> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with
> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd
> run it by you folks for an update..
> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>
> db
>
>
> Dan Brown
> Foxfire Energy Corp.
> Renewable Energy Systems
> (802)-483-2564
> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
> ___
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[RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Mick Abraham]

Allan S. sent follow up queries after my response to Drake's dilemma.
Allan's queries are pasted below.

Mick here: Sorry I didn't state my suggestion more clearly but, yes, in
this situation the only way to know if the battery is worth trying to
salvage is to pump it up nicely with a bunch of energy (meeting the battery
mfr's "full charge parameters" or as close as possible)...shut off the
generator & shut off the solar array...set the Tri-Metric (or other shunt
based monitor) to measure "amp hours from full" & make sure the counter is
starting at 0.00 amp hours from full...then impose loads on the battery
bank & let it all run until the inverter shuts off due to low battery
voltage. (The loads don't have to impose a steady "20 hour discharge rate"
& we're not trying for laboratory accuracy. To give the battery a fair
chance at proving its mettle, be sure the discharge rate is equitably
chosen for the battery type & temperature, etc. To be "equitable", the
servicing technician should run the test in a way that doesn't ask the
battery to perform miraculously...just to perform within its design
parameters.)

Allan correctly states that 1.75 volts per cell is the "industry standard"
discharge cut off point for lead acid batteries (@ 25 degrees C) so if the
system is 48v nominal, that's 24 cells X 1.75 = 42.0 volts as the setpoint
for the inverter's LBCO "low battery cutoff function". The amp-hour monitor
will display the number of amp-hours that the battery was able to deliver
before the inverter crashed on voltage & that value can be compared to the
original rated capacity. So...although I must have muddled my explanation,
Allan, the Tri-Metric type monitors can indeed measure & display the
battery's amp-hour capacity. One must eliminate solar recharge during the
test & any other variables such as generator run time...then there's only a
battery, an inverter, some loads, and the amp-hour counting gizmo.

>>An unhealthy battery will reach the failure point in a fairly short
amount of time & for a fairly small amount of labor.<< A semi-healthy
battery is a greater challenge because it takes longer to wring them out &
the service tech may opt to educate the client on how to complete the "pump
& dump" measurement after the tech leaves the site. If the client can be
persuaded to install a shunt & an amp-hour meter, they'll also have better
instrumentation in place to help them & their service technician down the
road. Some clients will want to try an EQ charge or other measures & the ah
counter will be able to display any improvements that result from those
efforts...or the lack of improvements.

As my Dutch solar buddy would say, "Meten is Weten": "Measuring is
Knowing." A battery based energy system owner who only has a DC voltmeter
is like a car owner whose only instrument is a tire pressure gauge.
Definitely some clients balk at the expense & new learning required to
retrofit a proper ah monitor, but better instrumentation may prove a good
value to them in the long run.

The Wrench List is the Bomb! Mick Abraham

-- Forwarded message --
From: Sindelar Solar 
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:40:55 -0700
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

Mick,

While I fully agree on the importance of a monitor such as the TriMetric,
I'm confused by some of what you've written below. A TriMet (or any similar
monitor for LA) can measure amp-hours removed and replaced, but it can't
measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. Only taking the
time to drain the bank at a measured rate will do that, and I have yet to
have a customer want to pay me to do a battery capacity test down to 1.75
vpc at the 20-hour rate - or any rate for that matter. The TriMet is set up
such that the installer tells the TriMet the battery capacity. In a case
such as this, what number would you program into the TM as the amp-hour
capacity? How would you determine this value?

Thanks, Allan
-- 

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*
Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Landline: 970-731-4675
Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
ᐧ
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Sindelar Solar]

Jerry,

You write "I'm sure you know this..." but I don't know it. I don't think 
I have heard this before, as you have presented it.


How do you rotate strings? Where did you learn this? Is there an online 
source that you can provide?


Thanks, Allan

On 11/20/2018 6:21 PM, jerrysgarage01 wrote:

Wrenches, Drake
You may consider contacting "Batcap" and bank if they have a best 
practice for the battery configuration, this might be it but at least 
a starting point. I have had multi string batteries that seamed to 
like being rotated through the bank, sounds like alot of work and it 
is but this will swap higher resistance strings for lower ones. I'm 
sure you know this but each battery has internal resistance to charge 
and even discharge so rotating them reduces the effect and may in time 
help to improve the battery life.

Jerry



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Drake 
Date: 11/20/18 8:41 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

Hello Wrenches,

An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep 
cycle batteries of the Batcap 
 
brand.


The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce 
*500 AH battery sets at 12 V.* These four parallel sets are then 
wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank.


The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is 
about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these 
batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has 
high expectations for these batteries being around for a while.


My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel 
configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus 
bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them 
might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money 
is worth putting into this bank? $0?


The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong 
installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this 
situation? Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the 
hills.


Thanks,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
/Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
/http://athens-electric.com/

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--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Ken Schaal]

Hey alexis.
Any thoughts regarding these comments about Ni-fi batteries?
Ur running them DC direct?
Hope all is well. Ken

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:25 PM David Katz  AEE Solar sold NiFe batteries from Russia in the late 1990s.  They last a
> long time but were hard to use with inverters.  A 12 volt pack has 10
> cells. Each cell reaches full charge at 1.7 volts so the pack would be at
> 17 volts. that is 68 volts in a 48 volt pack.  inverters turn off for
> over-voltage before that.  When they are operating the cells are at 1.2
> volts.  The charge efficiency is about 60% when you look at watt hours in
> vs. watt hours out.  They also use a lot of distilled water.  I had a set
> that required watering every 3 weeks.  I did not keep up with watering once
> and one of the cells exploded when the water level got below the plates.
> I would suggest L-ion batteries instead.
> David Katz
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Ray  wrote:
>
>> Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard to get
>> right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really
>> expensive to boot.  I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have
>> replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with.  They seem to work OK,
>> only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized
>> large enough.  Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really
>> under size them, which only exasperates the above issues.
>>
>> There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely
>> adopted by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and I understand
>> the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging
>> available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type
>> loads with very little surge.
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>>
>> On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:
>>
>> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre
>> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe
>> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with
>> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd
>> run it by you folks for an update..
>> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>>
>> db
>>
>>
>> Dan Brown
>> Foxfire Energy Corp.
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> (802)-483-2564
>> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[David Katz]

AEE Solar sold NiFe batteries from Russia in the late 1990s.  They last a
long time but were hard to use with inverters.  A 12 volt pack has 10
cells. Each cell reaches full charge at 1.7 volts so the pack would be at
17 volts. that is 68 volts in a 48 volt pack.  inverters turn off for
over-voltage before that.  When they are operating the cells are at 1.2
volts.  The charge efficiency is about 60% when you look at watt hours in
vs. watt hours out.  They also use a lot of distilled water.  I had a set
that required watering every 3 weeks.  I did not keep up with watering once
and one of the cells exploded when the water level got below the plates.
I would suggest L-ion batteries instead.
David Katz

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Ray  wrote:

> Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard to get
> right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really
> expensive to boot.  I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have
> replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with.  They seem to work OK,
> only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized
> large enough.  Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really
> under size them, which only exasperates the above issues.
>
> There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely
> adopted by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and I understand
> the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging
> available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type
> loads with very little surge.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:
>
> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre
> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe
> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with
> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd
> run it by you folks for an update..
> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>
> db
>
>
> Dan Brown
> Foxfire Energy Corp.
> Renewable Energy Systems
> (802)-483-2564
> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Ray]

I agree with Allan,  I have never done a full load test on a battery 
bank.  The customers experience usually provides the necessary info.  In 
this case there is no question the battery bank needs replacing.   Here 
are the reasons to replace in summary:


1)  Battery wiring in parallel/ then series, with too many parallel strings

2) Age of the batteries, 5 years is not bad for an average AGM in even 
good conditions.


3) Odd brand not suited for solar, with outrageous life expectancy claims.

4) 100 AH, 12 v batteries are just not the right choice for anything 
over a single series string.  Larger 6 v batteries are always preferred 
when possible and have longer cycle life because of thicker plates.


5) Wide variance in voltages between batteries (13 to 15 v?)

6) Customer's experience: obviously the service call came in, because 
the system wasn't performing properly anymore.


Load testing this mess is just a further waste of everyone's time.  
Temporarily rewiring the best batteries into a normal series/ parallel 
configuration with maybe 3 strings at most could regain a bit of 
performance until the the new set can be installed.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 11/21/18 11:40 AM, Sindelar Solar wrote:


Mick,

While I fully agree on the importance of a monitor such as the 
TriMetric, I'm confused by some of what you've written below. A TriMet 
(or any similar monitor for LA) can measure amp-hours removed and 
replaced, but it can't measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour 
capacity. Only taking the time to drain the bank at a measured rate 
will do that, and I have yet to have a customer want to pay me to do a 
battery capacity test down to 1.75 vpc at the 20-hour rate - or any 
rate for that matter. The TriMet is set up such that the installer 
tells the TriMet the battery capacity. In a case such as this, what 
number would you program into the TM as the amp-hour capacity? How 
would you determine this value?


Thanks, Allan

--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

On 11/20/2018 11:28 PM, Mick Abraham wrote:
> Hello, Drake & All~
>
> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere 
& whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My 
reply below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the 
existing battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded.

>
> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I 
suggest you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering 
shunt & a modest amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be 
used to measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the 
client won't approve that expenditure (& hourly labor for 
explanations), the service tech is hamstrung. Nobody can measure the 
health of a battery bank by just looking at it or talking about 
it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable "battery bad news" 
if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital display after 
an equitably managed "pump & dump".

>
> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery 
pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements 
are recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series 
of attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the 
homeowner acknowledges that it's time to start afresh.

>
> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the 
client has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible 
at getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't 
materially blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be 
better off spending limited funds on fuel for the engine generator 
instead of on battery testing & tutorials.

>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Drake 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 
V Deep cycle batteries of the Batcap brand.

>
> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to 
produce 500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then 
wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank.

>
> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank 
is about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that 
these batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so 
he has high expectations for these batteries being around for a while.

>
> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - 
parallel configuration. But there are too many strings to do this 
without a bus bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and 
rewiring 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Sindelar Solar]

Mick,

While I fully agree on the importance of a monitor such as the 
TriMetric, I'm confused by some of what you've written below. A TriMet 
(or any similar monitor for LA) can measure amp-hours removed and 
replaced, but it can't measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour 
capacity. Only taking the time to drain the bank at a measured rate will 
do that, and I have yet to have a customer want to pay me to do a 
battery capacity test down to 1.75 vpc at the 20-hour rate - or any rate 
for that matter. The TriMet is set up such that the installer tells the 
TriMet the battery capacity. In a case such as this, what number would 
you program into the TM as the amp-hour capacity? How would you 
determine this value?


Thanks, Allan

--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

On 11/20/2018 11:28 PM, Mick Abraham wrote:
> Hello, Drake & All~
>
> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere 
& whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My 
reply below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the 
existing battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded.

>
> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I 
suggest you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt 
& a modest amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to 
measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client 
won't approve that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the 
service tech is hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery 
bank by just looking at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes 
receive the inevitable "battery bad news" if they are shown the 
diminished capacity on a digital display after an equitably managed 
"pump & dump".

>
> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery 
pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are 
recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of 
attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the 
homeowner acknowledges that it's time to start afresh.

>
> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the 
client has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible 
at getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't 
materially blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better 
off spending limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of 
on battery testing & tutorials.

>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Drake 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V 
Deep cycle batteries of the Batcap brand.

>
> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to 
produce 500 AH battery sets at 12 V. These four parallel sets are then 
wired  in series to give a 48 V nominal bank.

>
> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is 
about 5 years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these 
batteries have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has 
high expectations for these batteries being around for a while.

>
> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - 
parallel configuration. But there are too many strings to do this 
without a bus bar. Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and 
rewiring them might cause the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How 
much money is worth putting into this bank? $0?

>
> The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong 
installer. He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? 
Rewire the bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills.

>
> Thanks,
>
> Drake

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Ray]

Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard to get 
right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really 
expensive to boot.  I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have 
replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with.  They seem to work 
OK, only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array 
are sized large enough. Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to 
really under size them, which only exasperates the above issues.


There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely 
adopted by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and I understand 
the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging 
available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type 
loads with very little surge.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:
Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre 
packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about 
Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few 
searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a 
Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update..

Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.

db


Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com 

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[RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[dan]

Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update.. Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Words of wisdom Hilton. I saw a few of these types of systems during the
wildfires here this summer. It was hard to leave people without power in
the smoke and ruin. The guy who took the job has been blamed for
everything. My quote was complete replacement of everything except the
solar panels.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 11:09:02 -0500, Hilton Dier 
wrote:
> Hi Drake
> 
> I vote for option 3: run like the wind. If you touch it you own it. With
> that voltage variation there has to be some deterioration, so the bank
will
> never run right no matter what you do. Of course if you change anything
it
> will be your fault that it doesn’t work.
> 
> If anything, I’d recommend that you tell the guy his bank was installed
in
> a way guaranteed to ruin it and that it is in fact ruined. Then lace up
> your track shoes and sprint. If you take the job to replace it he will
> always harbor a suspicion that you just wanted to make the money on a
new
> battery bank. 
> 
> The most important client is the one you don’t take. 
> 
> Hilton Dier III
> Renewable Energy Design
> Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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[RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Hilton Dier]

Hi Drake

I vote for option 3: run like the wind. If you touch it you own it. With that 
voltage variation there has to be some deterioration, so the bank will never 
run right no matter what you do. Of course if you change anything it will be 
your fault that it doesn’t work.

If anything, I’d recommend that you tell the guy his bank was installed in a 
way guaranteed to ruin it and that it is in fact ruined. Then lace up your 
track shoes and sprint. If you take the job to replace it he will always harbor 
a suspicion that you just wanted to make the money on a new battery bank. 

The most important client is the one you don’t take. 

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Ray]

Regardless of the Amazing Batcap 30 yr claims debunked by Dan,  a system 
wired in the manner described (5 batteries in parallel, then series 
connecting the sets of 5 for 48 v) is just not going to charge and 
discharge evenly.  Its violated the no more than 4 parallel strings 
rule, so I'm surprised it lasted even 5 years. My guess is that some of 
the batteries are toast and some may have a bit of life in them, since 
they were so grossly imbalanced, so a neighbor might be able to use a 
few of the best ones for a couple more years. Ultimately the rule in off 
grid solar is "Batteries are the Weakest Link".  The customer is not 
going to have a decent experience until they replace that mess with a 
properly sized and wired battery bank from a reputable manufacturer.


I won't take on new clients if we can't get the system up to snuff.  I 
don't need those oh so predictable calls that the power is off again.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 11/21/18 1:06 AM, Dan Fink wrote:
Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this 
battery bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If 
he bought these new, that's a very expensive battery bank!


Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour 
sealed lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a 
whole bunch of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer 
overrun etc."


My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things

-The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx 
punks with car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. 
They need lots of amps right now to thump that bass.


- The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this 
application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it 
would recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But 
some folks seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor 
involved. There isn't. Sneaky language in the company name.


-  Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a 
stock AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA.


- Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does 
not speak English as a first language.


- "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label 
stickers as an afterthoughtand 30 years cycle life in a solar 
application? Has Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody 
importing Asian AGMs and sticking them with new stickers.


DAN FINK
Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342



On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham  wrote:


Hello, Drake & All~

Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought
elsewhere & whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring
(copied below). My reply below may seem cynical & I may seem too
eager to declare the existing battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded.

Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I
suggest you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering
shunt & a modest amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which
could be used to measure & display the battery bank's amp-hour
capacity. If the client won't approve that expenditure (& hourly
labor for explanations), the service tech is hamstrung. Nobody can
measure the health of a battery bank by just looking at it or
talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable
"battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a
digital display after an equitably managed "pump & dump".

Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the
battery pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour
measurements are recorded as a baseline. From there...a common
pattern is a series of attempted remediation efforts--all for pay,
of course--until the homeowner acknowledges that it's time to
start afresh.

Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the
client has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally
terrible at getting that reconnaissance done early enough. If the
client isn't materially blessed to be able to get new batteries,
they might be better off spending limited funds on fuel for the
engine generator instead of on battery testing & tutorials.

The Wrench List is the Bomb~

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com 

Landline: 970-731-4675
Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584


-- Forwarded message --
From: Drake mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>>
To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM
Hello Wrenches,

An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH,

Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Dan Fink]

Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this battery
bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If he bought
these new, that's a very expensive battery bank!

Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour sealed
lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a whole bunch
of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer overrun etc."

My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things

-The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx punks
with car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. They need
lots of amps right now to thump that bass.

- The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this
application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it would
recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But some folks
seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor involved. There isn't.
Sneaky language in the company name.

-  Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a stock
AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA.

- Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does not
speak English as a first language.

- "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label
stickers as an afterthoughtand 30 years cycle life in a solar
application? Has Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody
importing Asian AGMs and sticking them with new stickers.

DAN FINK
Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342



On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham  Hello, Drake & All~
>
> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere &
> whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply
> below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing
> battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded.
>
> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest
> you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest
> amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure &
> display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve
> that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is
> hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking
> at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable
> "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital
> display after an equitably managed "pump & dump".
>
> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery
> pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are
> recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of
> attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner
> acknowledges that it's time to start afresh.
>
> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client
> has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting
> that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially
> blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending
> limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery
> testing & tutorials.
>
> The Wrench List is the Bomb~
>
> Mick Abraham, Proprietor
> www.abrahamsolar.com
>
> Landline: 970-731-4675
> Cell phone or for text messaging: 970-946-6584
>
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Drake 
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Cc:
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Tue, 20 Nov 2018 11:41:17 -0500
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM
>> Hello Wrenches,
>>
>> An owner of an existing system has a bank of twenty, 100 AH, 12 V Deep
>> cycle batteries of the Batcap
>> 
>> brand.
>>
>> The bank is made up of four sets of 5 batteries in parallel to produce *500
>> AH battery sets at 12 V.* These four parallel sets are then wired  in
>> series to give a 48 V nominal bank.
>>
>> The battery voltages vary from around 13 to 15 volts. The bank is about 5
>> years old. The CEO of Batcap told the system owner that these batteries
>> have lasted up to 30 years in solar applications, so he has high
>> expectations for these batteries being around for a while.
>>
>> My first impulse is to rewire the bank in a normal series - parallel
>> configuration. But there are too many strings to do this without a bus bar.
>> Besides, the batteries are likely damaged, and rewiring them might cause
>> the bank to exhibit unsuspected problems. How much money is worth putting
>> into this bank? $0?
>>
>> The owner seems like a reliable guy who likely hired the wrong installer.
>> He could use some help. What would you do in this situation? Rewire the
>> bank, leave it well enough alone or run for the hills.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Drake
>>
>> Drake Chamberlin
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Athens Electric LLC OH License 44810 CO