Re: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI

[Chris Worcester]

It might be worth checking the brushes if it is an older unit. Chris Worcester 
chris@solarwindworks.com530-448-9692Sent from my Samsung Galaxy s9.
 Original message From: William Miller 
 Date: 12/19/20  6:30 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches 
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] generator 
tripping GFCI Friends:I have seen THD on the voltage waveform trip GFIs and 
AFCIs. The case where this happened was during gen run periods. AC to DC 
converters can be brutal in regards to generating distortion and sending it to 
loads. I am out in the shop away from the manuals, but check if these FX 
inverters can be programmed for Support mode on the gen input. This may knock 
THD back to acceptable levels, if indeed this is the cause. Best of luck. 
William Millerwww.millersolar.comOn Dec 19, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Darryl Thayer 
 wrote:The way a GFCI operates is by comparing the line 
current and the neutral current inside the device.  If some of the neutral 
current is returning through a ground circuit instead of the neutral the 
imbalance will trip the device.  The generator neutral and the inverter neutral 
must have a common neutral-ground bond and only one!  Your presentation 
indicates operational differences, multiple bonding points (two or more) can 
cause a neutral ground imbalance when load, source changes occur.  The 
load-source changes can affect the tripping result.    On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 
5:23 PM jay  wrote:HI All,

I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked 
inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally for 
10+ years.

Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI 
outlets and GFCI breakers.  

Since then the  GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only after 
3-30 minutes.   They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a 
bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip.

The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during warm 
down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off.  So charging current is at the 
lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all the rest of 
the charge cycle.


Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the whole 
time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the outlets 
would keep tripping.  If it was too high for the breakers, why at the end and 
not the beginning?

I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not working 
well.  Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc.  

Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across.

Any ideas?

thanks

jay

peltz power




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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI

[William Miller]

Friends:

I have seen THD on the voltage waveform trip GFIs and AFCIs. The case where 
this happened was during gen run periods. AC to DC converters can be brutal in 
regards to generating distortion and sending it to loads. 

I am out in the shop away from the manuals, but check if these FX inverters can 
be programmed for Support mode on the gen input. This may knock THD back to 
acceptable levels, if indeed this is the cause. 

Best of luck. 

William Miller
www.millersolar.com

> On Dec 19, 2020, at 5:33 PM, Darryl Thayer  wrote:
> 
> 
> The way a GFCI operates is by comparing the line current and the neutral 
> current inside the device.  If some of the neutral current is returning 
> through a ground circuit instead of the neutral the imbalance will trip the 
> device.  The generator neutral and the inverter neutral must have a common 
> neutral-ground bond and only one!  
> Your presentation indicates operational differences, multiple bonding points 
> (two or more) can cause a neutral ground imbalance when load, source changes 
> occur.  The load-source changes can affect the tripping result.
> 
>> On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 5:23 PM jay  wrote:
>> HI All,
>> 
>> I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked 
>> inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally 
>> for 10+ years.
>> 
>> Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI 
>> outlets and GFCI breakers.  
>> 
>> Since then the  GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only 
>> after 3-30 minutes.   They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a 
>> bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip.
>> 
>> The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during 
>> warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off.  So charging current 
>> is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all 
>> the rest of the charge cycle.
>> 
>> 
>> Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the 
>> whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the 
>> outlets would keep tripping.  If it was too high for the breakers, why at 
>> the end and not the beginning?
>> 
>> I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not 
>> working well.  Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc.  
>> 
>> Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across.
>> 
>> Any ideas?
>> 
>> thanks
>> 
>> jay
>> 
>> peltz power
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI

[Jay]

Hi Ray

I will have to triple check, but even if it’s yes. 

How does that explain the time differences?  
If it was a neutralground loop,  then why not it tripping everything right away?

That’s why I was thinking it’s related to the control board in the generator?

Jay

> On Dec 19, 2020, at 5:10 PM, Ray  wrote:
> 
> Is it possible that neutral is bonded to ground in the generator?  I've 
> found lots of multi-bonded neutrals over the years, and had it cause all 
> sorts of weirdness.
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> 
>> On 12/19/20 5:33 PM, jay wrote:
>> HI All,
>> 
>> I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked 
>> inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally 
>> for 10+ years.
>> 
>> Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI 
>> outlets and GFCI breakers.
>> 
>> Since then the  GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only 
>> after 3-30 minutes.   They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a 
>> bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip.
>> 
>> The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during 
>> warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off.  So charging current 
>> is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all 
>> the rest of the charge cycle.
>> 
>> 
>> Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the 
>> whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the 
>> outlets would keep tripping.  If it was too high for the breakers, why at 
>> the end and not the beginning?
>> 
>> I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not 
>> working well.  Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc.
>> 
>> Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across.
>> 
>> Any ideas?
>> 
>> thanks
>> 
>> jay
>> 
>> peltz power
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI

[Kent Osterberg]

Jay,

Agree with Ray that two neutral ground bonds can cause strange behavior. 
But the timing near the end of the charge cycle makes me wonder if the 
issue is related to one inverter shutting down the charger before the 
other. The VFX 3648 charger mode is a terrible load and will cause weird 
output wave forms on most generators, and when only one inverter is 
charging, the harmonics will show up on the neutral.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 12/19/2020 2:33 PM, jay wrote:

HI All,

I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked 
inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally for 
10+ years.

Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI 
outlets and GFCI breakers.

Since then the  GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only after 
3-30 minutes.   They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a 
bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip.

The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during warm 
down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off.  So charging current is at the 
lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all the rest of 
the charge cycle.


Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the whole 
time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the outlets 
would keep tripping.  If it was too high for the breakers, why at the end and 
not the beginning?

I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not working 
well.  Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc.

Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across.

Any ideas?

thanks

jay

peltz power




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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI

[Darryl Thayer]

The way a GFCI operates is by comparing the line current and the neutral
current inside the device.  If some of the neutral current is returning
through a ground circuit instead of the neutral the imbalance will trip the
device.  The generator neutral and the inverter neutral must have a common
neutral-ground bond and only one!
Your presentation indicates operational differences, multiple bonding
points (two or more) can cause a neutral ground imbalance when load, source
changes occur.  The load-source changes can affect the tripping result.

On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 5:23 PM jay  wrote:

> HI All,
>
> I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked
> inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally
> for 10+ years.
>
> Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI
> outlets and GFCI breakers.
>
> Since then the  GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only
> after 3-30 minutes.   They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a
> bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip.
>
> The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during
> warm down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off.  So charging current
> is at the lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all
> the rest of the charge cycle.
>
>
> Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the
> whole time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue
> the outlets would keep tripping.  If it was too high for the breakers, why
> at the end and not the beginning?
>
> I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not
> working well.  Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc.
>
> Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI

[Ray]

Is it possible that neutral is bonded to ground in the generator?  I've 
found lots of multi-bonded neutrals over the years, and had it cause all 
sorts of weirdness.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 12/19/20 5:33 PM, jay wrote:

HI All,

I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked 
inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally for 
10+ years.

Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI 
outlets and GFCI breakers.

Since then the  GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only after 
3-30 minutes.   They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a 
bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip.

The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during warm 
down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off.  So charging current is at the 
lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all the rest of 
the charge cycle.


Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the whole 
time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the outlets 
would keep tripping.  If it was too high for the breakers, why at the end and 
not the beginning?

I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not working 
well.  Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc.

Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across.

Any ideas?

thanks

jay

peltz power




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[RE-wrenches] generator tripping GFCI

[jay]

HI All,

I have a client with a older Kohler 8-10kw generator, VFX 3648 stacked 
inverters, newer rolls batteries. its been installed and operating normally for 
10+ years.

Customer had to upgrade the house for code, which involved installing GFCI 
outlets and GFCI breakers.  

Since then the  GFI outlets trip every time the generator starts but only after 
3-30 minutes.   They work normally on the inverters. And if you do a 
bypass/generator direct the GFI outlets don’t trip.

The GFI breakers trip when the generator is about to turn off, not during warm 
down but say 30 minutes before it will turn off.  So charging current is at the 
lowest. And again they all work normally on the inverters and all the rest of 
the charge cycle.


Voltage is a bit high, around 254v-259v from the generator but it is the whole 
time and seems to stable voltage. But if the voltage was the issue the outlets 
would keep tripping.  If it was too high for the breakers, why at the end and 
not the beginning?

I’m thinking its possibly a control board in the generator that’s not working 
well.  Can’t keep up with the PF for the inverters, etc.  

Buts its a new issue I’ve not run across.

Any ideas?

thanks

jay

peltz power




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System-Follow up

[Ray]

Little Nerd Family, that's great.  Back on Topic:  I'm also in the midst 
of trying to care for a Sunny Island setup we inherited a few years 
ago.  Tump's info is invaluable and also explains why my adopted step 
system couldn't keep its AGMs alive for more than 4 years. (curtail 
charge rate at 70% SOC?!?)   Our plan right now is to pull the Sunny 
Boy, replace it with a Schneider 600 v charge controller, and also 
either abandon auto gen start completely, or add a separate AGS 
controller.  We are also adding SImplifi batteries, so its not going to 
be happy with the SI settings anyway.


Good luck, Papa Nerd,

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 12/19/20 2:19 AM, William Miller wrote:


Wrenches:

Thanks for all of your priceless knowledge.  I feel like we are a 
little nerd family.


William Miller

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System-Follow up

[Tump]

William, good morning. I live off grid w/ these things please feel free to 
contact me off list.
Without knowing your familiarity w/ the SMASI, I may be repeating things you 
already know.
Anytime the SOC is above 70% your frequency is shifted to reduce array input, 
(German engineers) so this is probably the most frustrating issues w/ the SIs. 
Beautiful sunny day at 73% little recharge, next day cloudy for a week starting 
w/ a BB that isn’t fully charged, customers & installers don’t like this too 
much.

First; Anytime there is a generator fault one needs to clear that fault. This 
is found menu 540/2“Gen Ackn”. Also check that the gen in 540 01 is set to 
“auto”, if not then check menu 235/01 “Generator Start" default is “on". Menu # 
235/02 “ Gn autoStr”, I will always increase the # of start attempts usually to 
5or 6, default is 3.
If the generator is running, charging batteries while there is good production 
from the array you will get “reverse current” if this happens, it will disable 
charging from genset which needs to be reset also in Menu 540/02. One can also 
In Menu "Generator control" 234 /13 GnRVPwr, Try setting this up to 150W 
Bottom line, off grid living that 500 menu is my go to for both my clients that 
have these things & myself. Clearing gen faults, Menu 520/01 to start battery 
EQing. Fla batteries, one can set voltage set points higher than the Bulk set 
point, but this leads to additional watering. For AGMs I will set this to my 
absorb voltage setpoints. If one uses this menu while its sunny this will 
prevent the Frequency shift and you will usually get a decent charge from the 
array. I usually do this once a week or so this time of year.
This system has worked well in the past, sounds like the generator starter 
battery was the fault issue that cascaded into additional issues.
I use a Victron BVM712 that enables me to watch the “House BB voltage” AND 
monitor the "generator starter BV". You can also remotely actuate the relay for 
alarms etc.
Tump
 
> On Dec 19, 2020, at 2:19 AM, William Miller  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches:
>  
> I found some time to review the .evt and .log files from the primary Sunny 
> Island inverter.
>  
> Prior to 12/8/20 the system was running normally with a generator run 
> averaging 6 hours about every other day.
>  
> On 12/8 at 06:00 the system tried to start the generator.  There was no 
> indication the generator delivered voltage to the system.  The system tried 
> to start the generator 168 times between 12/18 at 06:00 and 12/13 at 15:00.  
> 168 times the system closed relay 1 and then opened it about 2 minutes later. 
>  Maybe the generator ran, maybe it didn’t, but no voltage was delivered.  On 
> 12/15 the client started the generator and it produced voltage into the 
> inverter system.  On 12/18 I started the generator and it produced voltage.
>  
> Why this generator start cycle kept recurring is a mystery to me.  There may 
> be a setting within the bowels of the menu system that I have overlooked that 
> limits the start attempts and I will be investigating that.  To me, 
> navigating the Sunny Island menu system is like trying to remember the DOS 
> command-line interface.  I need something much more ergonomic.
>  
> Thanks for all of your priceless knowledge.  I feel like we are a little nerd 
> family.
>  
> William Miller
> Miller Solar
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 805-438-5600
> www.millersolar.com 
> CA Lic. 773985
>  
>  
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[RE-wrenches] Remote Alert and Bootstrapping on Sunny Island AC Coupled System-Follow up

[William Miller]

Wrenches:



I found some time to review the .evt and .log files from the primary Sunny
Island inverter.



Prior to 12/8/20 the system was running normally with a generator run
averaging 6 hours about every other day.



On 12/8 at 06:00 the system tried to start the generator.  There was no
indication the generator delivered voltage to the system.  The system tried
to start the generator 168 times between 12/18 at 06:00 and 12/13 at
15:00.  168 times the system closed relay 1 and then opened it about 2
minutes later.  Maybe the generator ran, maybe it didn’t, but no voltage
was delivered.  On 12/15 the client started the generator and it produced
voltage into the inverter system.  On 12/18 I started the generator and it
produced voltage.



Why this generator start cycle kept recurring is a mystery to me.  There
may be a setting within the bowels of the menu system that I have
overlooked that limits the start attempts and I will be investigating
that.  To me, navigating the Sunny Island menu system is like trying to
remember the DOS command-line interface.  I need something much more
ergonomic.



Thanks for all of your priceless knowledge.  I feel like we are a little
nerd family.



William Miller

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985
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