Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback:

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Here is the official word from the new president of Outback Power just 
now posted on the Outback Forum:



Hello Outback Community,

My name is Marshall Neipert, the new president of Outback Power. As 
some of you may have heard, Outback Power has recently been purchased 
from EnerSys in a private sale. Although the official announcement was 
scheduled for the end of May, the ongoing issues with Optics RE have 
prompted me to address the community earlier.


I want to assure you that despite the transition to new ownership, the 
hosting of Optics RE has not yet moved to Outback Power. It remains 
hosted by EnerSys. I met with the lead tech at EnerSys responsible for 
hosting Optics RE early Monday morning. He assured me that they have 
identified the problem and are working diligently to bring Optics RE 
back online as soon as possible.


I will personally keep you updated on the progress here in this forum, 
and we hope to resolve the issue very soon.


This is not how I envisioned my introduction to the Outback community, 
but under the circumstances, I wanted to assure you that I am 
committed to maintaining open communication and ensuring that Outback 
Power is in good hands.


Please keep an eye out for our upcoming press release, which will 
include exciting hints about the incredible, disruptive products 
Outback Power will be releasing soon.


Sincerely,

Marshall Neipert
President, Outback Power

Hope that helps to clear things up!

Best,


~~~
Jeff Clearwater


linkedin 
www.villagepowerdesign.com 
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 


May 20, 2024 at 12:00 PM
Interesting that Commerce, TX is 20 miles from Sulphur Springs, TX 
which is the home of Signature Solar.
https://www.outbackpower.com/resources/ ... rt-request 


Shows:
404 Page Not Found
Component not found

Screenshot 2024-05-20 104538.jpg 



The moderators (not Outback employees) on the forum have an 
interesting conspiracy thread going if it is a slow Monday.

https://forum.outbackpower.com/viewtopic.php?t=18704=25
Good info also on using WattPlott earlier in the thread.

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
https://offgridsolar1.com/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
text 209 813 0060*


On 2024-05-20 8:51 am, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:



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William Miller via RE-wrenches 
May 20, 2024 at 10:51 AM

Friends:

Optics is still down as of Monday morning.  Outback does not answer 
telephone calls.  Options on their automated attendant are Tech 
Support and Sales.  Either selection directs you to sales but no one 
picks up.  I left several messages.


I called Zonna Energy to ask.  They told me Outback had been purchased 
and moved to Texas.  Zonna has stock and is being promised 
manufacturing will be continued.  Zonna is aware Optics and Tech 
Support are unavailable but don’t know when it will return. Zonna says 
Outback has been responding to on-line case requests.  They seem 
confident that the Outback line will continue as before.


That’s what I have learned this morning.

William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985



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[RE-wrenches] EG4 18kPV Correction - does have frequency shift AC Coupling

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Folks,

Just wanted to make a correction on the EG418kPV of a statement made 
during the AC Coupling thread.


The EG4 18kPV does have frequency shift based AC Coupling.  The 
confusion comes from the fact that like Sol-Ark there is a SOC set-point 
override feature for AC Coupling but the video William referred to 
seemed to imply it is the only control. It is not and EG4 is fixing this 
video.


William Miller wrote:

EG4: I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just like the 
Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an output. The 
EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC reaches a 
programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift function.


Hope that helps,

Jeff
Clearwater
Village Power Design
www.villagepowerdesign.com 



William Miller via RE-wrenches 
October 28, 2023 at 10:49 PM

Jay:

I am not sure how it would be possible for a grid-tied inverter to 
operate with any battery inverter if it was not connected to the 
battery inverter AC output.  The grid-tied inverter needs to see 
correct voltage and frequency before it can start up.  How else could 
this work?


I looked up all of the inverters you cited.  In each case it may look 
to you like you are connecting to an input, it is really just 
reprogramming the inverter to turn the generator input into an extra 
output.  All of the manufacturers provide warnings about doing this.  
Here is more information from each of the manufacturers:


Sol-arc: From the manual for the Sol-arc 15K-2P-N: You convert the Gen 
input to an output and make that your connection point.  “/A full AC 
coupled solar system is not recommended as power control and 
monitoring is limited.”/


EG4: I could not find an “ev4” inverter anywhere online.  There is an 
EG4 inverter.  I read the manual and it looks like the EG4 works just 
like the Sol-arc:  You program the generator input to actually be an 
output. The EG4 abruptly disconnects that output when battery SOC 
reaches a programmed level-- There is apparently no frequency shift 
function.  The manual is pretty inadequate on this point but they do 
provide a video 
.


Fortress: The same as above is true about using the generator input 
for AC-coupling on the Fortress FP-Envy-12k.  From that manual/:  It 
is forbidden to connect the Generator in Gen Port when AC Coupled. 
/That is because when AC-coupling, the generator input is no longer an 
input.


So while it appears one connects an AC-Coupled inverter to battery 
inverter inputs, it is just a reprogramming of the generator input to 
be an output.  In all cases that I can see there is still no voltage 
control of AC-coupled battery charging.


I am aware that to try and provide some modicum of control over the 
battery charging from AC-coupled sources, a scheme was invented to 
shift the output frequency and taper or shut down AC-coupled power.  
This is a work-around, not a design.  In each and every one of these 
systems it is pretty clear there is little control over battery 
charging voltage. These systems do not support three stage battery 
charging like a DC charge controller can.


When AC-coupled charging is connected to batteries with BMS in certain 
conditions battery voltage spikes can occur.  See section 2.2 of this 
article. 


There are limited advantages to AC coupling:

·AC coupling allows reduced wire gauge for long-haul feeders.  This is 
no longer as necessary with new 600 volt input charge controllers.


·AC Coupling allows an easier upgrade path for a customer that has 
grid-tied inverters and wants to add batteries.  I am not sure most 
batteries can survive for long with the crude charging algorithm 
provided, so I would hesitate to recommend this.


In my opinion AC-coupled battery charging with even the newest 
inverters is a crude affair.  I am not a fan.


William

Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com 

CA Lic. 773985

*From:*Jay [mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com ]
*Sent:* Saturday, October 28, 2023 1:58 PM
*To:* will...@millersolar.com ; 
RE-wrenches

*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] AC Coupling

I’m going to both agree and disagree

Agree The older inverters ( Schneider, Outback, etc) your drawing is 
correct.


Disagree For many new inverters ( sol ark, ev4, fortress) they bring 
ac coupling into the inverter directly.


Usually on the generator input and not in the backup loads panel.

And I will also disagree about the statement that these inverters are 
not designed for ac coupling.


Agreed that the earlier non rule 21 compliant versions didn’t have any 
internal control and required external relay control to prevent 
overcharge.


Newer versions of 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Nuance ground racking

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Dave,

Yes we were one of the early adopters and installed a 32 KW Nuance 
system last year in CA.


Mixed results though I think it's a very exciting concept and believe in 
it going forward - they are working out the bugs.


The new version is much better execution as far as the above ground rack 
goes than the first version - now ready for prime time.  It's actually a 
bit overkill now - but very solid.  they fixed the problem of needing 
two hands for the end clips too I believe.


The installation and then pull testing of the anchors can be 
straightforward but there are some things to watch for:


1. The first test tool they rented or sold to do pull testing was
   highly problematic - they've fixed that and have a new tool but it
   is very expensive - Luke (the lead designer) had one at RE+ in Las
   Vegas last month - I highly suggest you speak with him and arrange
   to rent the new tool to do the job - do NOT use the first one
2. They have a new wider anchor that needs to be installed before the
   post platforms - do you have the wide ones or the original ones? 
   The wide ones are recommended in clay or any wet soil - refer to
   Luke on that but with the narrow ones we need 2 or even 3 anchors
   per post in a few wet areas we had.
3. As for your tool questions - we rented a 30 lb impact drill to
   install the rods - though the dewalt one you show may work - I'd go
   heavier if you have hard soils.  That last tool you show may do the
   trick - but for the $100 rental fee it was worth having the big 30
   lb impact drill from the rental shop.

Make sure you have a chart or write in marker on the rack itself to show 
the inspector all of the uplift figures you get.  We were in the 
1200-2000 lb range for most of our anchors - sometimes we needed 2 or 3 
according to their formulae if one anchor doesn't pull enough resistance.


Also make sure the chinese finger cable grips are fully pushed all the 
way down.  We went back after the first wind storm and made sure they 
didn't move.


All has been great with the rack through two winds storms.

After many years of pouring concrete into sonotubes - and even after 
some recent experience with ground screws - I think the ground anchors 
are revolutionary!  Just got to be installed correctly!  I think it's a 
winner going forward and Nuance - though a small company - I think is 
doing a good job making it work.


Hope that helps,

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design



Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches 
October 9, 2023 at 10:32 AM
Hi all,

I am going to try out the Nuance OSPREY PowerRack as a ground mount 
option that does not require an excavator. I am wondering two things 
about it:


1. Does anyone have experience with this, and do you like it?

2. What drill do you use for the drive rod?
It seems like the Milwaukee 2" SDS max drill is the standard - 
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/Products/5342-21
I am wondering if it is possible to use a cordless drill though. 
DeWalt makes both a cordless and corded version that claim to have the 
same impact energy as each other, although both are less than the 
Milwaukee Drill. Milwaukee has 19.9 ft-lbs of energy and the DeWalt 
ones have 19.4 Joules, which is 14.3 ft-lbs of energy.
Cordless Kit - 
https://www.dewalt.com/product/dch773y2/60v-max-2-brushless-cordless-sds-max-combination-rotary-hammer-kit
Corded Kit - 
https://www.dewalt.com/product/d25773k/2-sds-max-rotary-hammer


The cordless drill is tempting because I already have a bunch of 
DeWalt equipment, and it would be nice to avoid needing a generator or 
some very long extension cords.


Thanks!
-Dave

--
Logo 
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com 
c: (607) 270-0370



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Service rated tap devices

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Mac and All,

If you are about to do a Supply-side tap I'd encourage you to look into 
the many advantages of using a Feeder Tap instead - one of which is that 
since it's not on the load side of the Main the equipment need not be 
Service Rated. (not that you might not want it to be anyway.)


Be aware that Supply Side Taps make total sense when you are doing only 
grid-tie as you are always backfeeding and so the current produced by 
the solar is always cancelling the incoming utility current.  However as 
soon as you add battery charging to the equation from a large or 
multiple parallel multi-modal inverter, then you have the very real 
possibility of overloading the Service Entrance Conductors.  Basically 
if you have a 200A residential service whose Service Entrance Conductors 
were based on calcs that had close to maxed out the 160 Amp continuous 
capacity of a 200 A service, then adding 50 Amps of battery charging to 
that can push if over the edge.  Once you have bi-directional flow on 
your supply side tap you are basically adding loads to a service that 
may not be able to handle it in the case of large batteries with large 
charging capability.


Feeder Taps on the other hand force you to do 2 things 1) they limit the 
bi-directional current to your Main Breaker size (200 A) and 2) they 
then re-protect the main load panel downstream of the tap with another 
Feeder Tap Breaker (or larger conductor) according to NEC2020 705.12(B) 
- protecting it from the sum of the 200 A potential from the utililty 
combined with the sell-back current potential of the grid-tie inverters. 
(diagram attached).  With this configuration you can safely backfeed up 
to 160 Amps of solar into a 200 Amp service while still have a large 
battery bank on that system and not worry at all about overloading 
during heavy battery charging.


For new construction or any large install where I need to reconfigure 
the Service Entrance anyway we use Feeder Taps pretty much exclusively 
now - for sure so for anything with batteries.  It does require having a 
stand-alone Main Breaker and to do away with meter-main combo panels. 
But the safety and flexibility of what you now have to work with in 
terms of AC or DC coupled inverters and battery backup - including whole 
home backup are far superior in my book.


And for folks already having a Main Breaker that is tappable after the 
Main but before any busses, the Feeder Tap approach allows you to not 
require shut-down of the service during reconfiguration.


Hope that helps!

Best,

Jeff


Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches 
July 19, 2023 at 10:01 PM
Hello Wrenches,

Is there any tap devices (piercing or other) that are UL Listed for 
tapping on the utility side of a main breaker for a solar 
interconnection?   Our AHJ won't allow anything that isn't service rated.


Thanks in advance!

--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

*


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fortress LFPs & ENVY 12kw inverter

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

This is incorrect. Deye does not make the ENVY. 

Contact me off list if you want to discuss 



Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 1, 2023, at 12:28 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Kirk
> 
> It’s the same Chinese company who makes both. Deye 
> 
> If I understand correctly sol ark’s exclusive arrangement with Deye ended. 
> 
> Jay
> 
>>> On Jun 1, 2023, at 10:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> Hello All,
>> 
>> I am sizing my first Fortress system, 18.5kwh LFPs w/ their new ENVY 
>> inverter. Or would a Sol-Ark be a better fit? I understand both inverters 
>> are somewhat similar.
>> 
>> Any opinions from the real-world of installs would be greatly appreciated. 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solar
>> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC
>> Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!
>> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
>> 802.863.1202
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[RE-wrenches] Need 1 Sanyo (Panasonic) HIP-195BA19 or equiv

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hey there Esteemed Wrenches

Anyone have one in New England?  

Anything from. 190-210 watt would do. Physical dimensions have to match. 

Thanks!!! 

Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design


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Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 230.46 spliced and tapped conductors

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

We've transitioned from using supply-side taps to using Feeder taps re: 
705.12(B) almost exclusively.


The advantages are numerous - and you just added one more - not needing 
line side listing on your tap hardware.


One of the most dangerous things I see looming in the present code is 
the fact that supply side taps can be safe for backfeeding up to 160 
Amps of PV on a standard 200 Amps service IF you are only grid-tie and 
the current is canceling incoming current.


But as soon as you add hybrid inverters and batteries.  Now you are 
adding significant battery charging amperage  to the NEC 220 load calcs 
that the service entrance connectors are based on..  Given that many 
residences utilized the downsize table for service entrance conductors 
you can quickly end up with a situation where your supply side tap is 
overloading your service entrance conductors if pulling the inverters 
full capability for battery charging and adding that to your normal 
house loads.


Feeder taps take care of this vulnerability in the present code.  By 
having a main 200 Amp breaker on both sides of the tap as per 705.122 B 
- all conductors are protected for both the increased loads due to 
battery charging as well as being able to still use the full 160 Amps 
available for backfeed.  And you don't have to shut down the utility to 
install.


Now you also add not needing to list your taps for supply side and you 
can use the venerable ILscos again . . .


Hope that helps!

Best,

Jeff


Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches 
February 1, 2023 at 7:18 PM
The requirements for power distribution blocks (PDB) to be marked 
“*suitable for use on the line side*…” when installed connected in 
that manner in wireways (Art. 376) and pull/junction boxes (Art. 314) 
have been in the NEC® for quite a few cycles.


It looks like the additions to 230.46 in the 2020 NEC® (PDBs and 
splices/pressure connectors connected to service conductors must be 
marked “suitable for use…”) coincided with this explicit requirement 
being removed from 314 (though it remains in 376); this makes sense - 
if you’re using a PDB on the line side, well you’re connecting to some 
type of service conductors, so why not cover it in Art. 230 (maybe 
it’ll also be removed from 376 in 2026).


UL 1953 allows for PDBs (UL product code QPQS) to be listed for 
connection on the line side, load side, or both, with those that can 
connect on the line side having the marking mentioned above. Note that 
many have an SCCR of 10 kA unless combined with 
the manufacturer-specified fuse type and size (or smaller), and have 
minimum enclosure sizes that must be followed as well. I have had a 
difficult time finding PDBs that are marked for use on the line side 
while just using the internet (and have been too lazy to pick up the 
phone thus far...plus it doesn't help that all PDBs have a line and 
load side of the device regardless of whether or not they are being 
connected on the line or load side of the service!).


Of course many folks are not going to want to use PDBs due to 
re-routing conductors to them (if even possible) and having to shut 
down the utility supply to install them. Enter pressure connectors, 
and the seemingly industry-fave insulation-piercing style; 
unfortunately I'm not aware of any that are available *yet* with the 
proper listing and markings as required by 230.46.


A colleague that works for a large electrical product manufacturer 
passed this along:


/“No test existed for qualifying single polarity connectors suitable 
for line side use when this was added to the 2020 code with the 
January 1, 2023 date for enforcement.  A strategy and test procedure 
needed to be developed and adopted by the UL CSDS working group.  Not 
a speedy process.  Long story short, after developing a strategy, 
public comment period and voting the *standard wasn’t published until 
August of last year.*  On average the testing requirements take about 
90 days.  To further complicate matters, I was recently told that UL 
is still developing the submittal process.


I know that there are a lot of companies currently testing products 
but until the UL submittal process catches up, no one will be 
official.  The *UL product code is ZMWW*; as companies become 
qualified they should show up in the ZMWW search.  As of today, no one 
is listed.  This leaves power distribution blocks as the lone 
connector product rated for line side use.  I know that Bussmann has 
some PDBs rated for line side use."


So this begs the question of whether or not NEC® 90.4(D) can be 
invoked (new products not yet available at the time the Code is 
adopted...); PDBs already exist, so no dice there, and it is likely 
that since they exist, an argument using 90.4(D) in regards to 
pressure connectors/splices will fall on deaf ears because, well, use 
PDBs."/


Ugh.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Esteemed Wrenchies,

Love this discussion.

It is clear to me after many years of watching this that the industry 
needs to have an Emergency Shutdown standard that includes an emergency 
shutdown of the BMS of every battery as well as the inverter's circuits 
including MPPTs if all all-in-one.


We are pushing now for all battery and inverter manufacturers to include 
this feature in their inverter communications so that if the inverter 
emergency shutdown pins are shorted -every battery shuts down.


This would avoid the ridiculous requirement of every battery cable being 
on a relay/contactor or bringing it to the outside of the house!





Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
January 30, 2023 at 5:08 PM
Wrenches.
You might want to consider turning off the inverter as a solution to 
turning off the batteries, we have this feature as part of our 
installs with outback real simple then no chance of AC anywhere, Not 
going to pop a CC, no chance of run on and it has passed every time. 
Just a thought that's a safe solution. With Outback you just have to 
turn off the master nothing else.

"Fun time in a crazy world"



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Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches 
January 30, 2023 at 10:54 AM
Hey folks - love the Code, hate it, don’t care about it or follow it: 
it doesn’t matter to me. But if you want to change it you have to 
realize it is a process with rules and procedures, and posting on this 
list that “the NEC” should immediately “issue a memo” to do what you 
want or change what you don’t like has ZERO effect.


Brian

On Jan 30, 2023, at 4:47 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:




I don't think the discussion has forked at all.  A solution to this 
problem, and it is the best solution all things considered, including 
firefighter exposure to 10 ft of conductors that I have a hard time 
imaging them being exposed to,  is for the NEC to issue a memo 
IMMEDIATELY indicating that this section of the code is no longer to 
be considered a requirement and that the next Code cycle will 
eliminate this requirement.


The other solutions discussed would only work for a few 
configurations realistically and would introduce more danger. Chris




On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:


James, Brian and others:

Thank you all for the lively discussion.  I am always interested in 
my colleague’s perspectives and this has been illuminating.


It appears to me the discussion has forked:  One topic is how to 
deal with the reality of the new code regarding a very narrow 
scenario: ESS inside of a residence.  The other topic is: has the 
NEC evolved to be overly restrictive without factual basis?


Regarding the first topic, it’s in black and white that we must 
provide battery disconnecting means for energy storage systems 
located in one or two family homes if the battery voltage exceeds 60 
VDC.  There are very few areas that do not adopt the NEC.  If you 
install ESS you will eventually have to deal with this code 
requirement one way or another.


Due to lax enforcement or unfamiliarity on the part of local 
building departments, some of you may be able to skirt this 
requirement.  This is great until something happens.  If your 
non-compliant installation causes a loss, you will end up in the 
defendants chair, not the building inspector.


Here is how I approach these compliance conundrums:  If I could 
argue the code does not apply or there is a good reason to waive the 
requirement; if the building official agrees; if I feel the 
installation is really and truly safe without meeting the 
 requirement—only then could I proceed without the disconnect.  
Otherwise I am going to have to find a way to comply.


As contractors, each of you makes those decisions every day: What is 
safe enough for my clients?  If any of you think you know more than 
the people who write the codes, then install what you can get away 
with and keep your fingers crossed.  I am not willing to live like that.


Regarding the second topic: Are we being picked on by an overly 
scare-mongering NFPA?


What is interesting here is that while most electrical codes are 
trying to prevent house fires, this particular section is trying to 
protect fire fighters after a fire starts (or an earthquake 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Actually up to 1500 amps available including 1000 amp version as well. It’s 
hidden in the spec sheets under large fuse holders. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 2, 2022, at 5:20 PM, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I recently found that Victron makes DC bus bars for battery work with studs 
> already on them. Up to 600A models are available.
> 
> -Glenn
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
> 
> -- Original message--
> From: William Miller via RE-wrenches
> Date: Fri, Dec 2, 2022 3:42 PM
> To: RE-wrenches;
> Cc: William Miller;
> Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing
> 
> Colleagues:
> 
>  
> 
> I am gearing up to tap some more copper.  I assume this is a pertinent 
> subject since bus bars are going to be needed frequently for any storage work.
> 
>  
> 
> I bought the fancy drill press with the tapping function and I am setting it 
> up.  I ran a few tests and the functionality of the tool is pretty amazing.  
> I still need to work on programming it to reverse when needed.  I am close.  
> I also ordered a cross vise for part holding.
> 
>  
> 
> I found this tutorial on line that has provided me with some valuable insight 
> on different styles of taps. 
> 
>  
> 
> William
> 
>  
> 
> Miller Solar
> 
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
> 
> 805-438-5600
> 
> www.millersolar.com
> 
> CA Lic. 773985
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches
> Sent: Monday, September 12, 2022 7:39 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Cc: Michael Morningstar
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Large current battery combiners, UL Listing
> 
>  
> 
> No, I haven't. I'll do some testing tomorrow as we have 60 holes/taps to do 
> in the above mentioned bussing
> 
>  
> 
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 7:54 AM frenergy via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Michael,
> 
>  Are you using kerosene as a cutting fluid?  We've had 
> better luck with that in softer than steel metals.
> 
> Bill
> 
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049
> 
> On 9/11/2022 7:00 PM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches wrote:
> > We've gotten around needing UL listings for one-off in house 
> > fabrication by running things through a licensed engineer. Right now 
> > we are building a gutter bus which has two 1/2" x 4" x 20' copper bars 
> > in a 10" x 10" gutter. We are using 2" x 9" x 9" UDPM plates with 
> > slots routed out for the bars as insulators. This is for 24 Discover 
> > AES and 8 Sol-Ark's. It usually costs about 1K to have an engineer 
> > sign off on our designs.
> >
> > I'd be interested in learning tricks for tapping 3/8" in thick copper. 
> > I've never been able to get consistent results and resort to 
> > thru-bolting.
> 
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> www.avast.com
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>  
> 
> --
> 
> Michael Morningstar
>  
> Morningstar Electric
> PO Box 1494
> Mount Shasta, CA 96067
> 530-921-0560
> mjmornings...@gmail.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage lithiums

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Kris

What voltage do you have your charge settings at?  

I recommend that bulk or absorb voltage for lithium iron phosphate not be set 
above 56 V  - there is no reason for it even though many manufactures suggest 
higher settings.  In cases where total storage is sized generously enough I 
 often use 55.6 or even 55.4 in order to target 95% as full instead of 100% in 
order to extend cycle life.   and for float there’s no reason to ever go over 
54 V and better maybe even to be in the mid-53s. 

See if that helps assuming you had it higher. 

The other thought is you have one bms that is perhaps not protecting overcharge 
 and allowing a temporary spike when the others do limit. 

Hope that helps!  

Best Jeff C. 
Village Power Design



Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 19, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Greetings all,
> 
> I have seen an issue on two different systems that I am hoping someone can 
> shed some light on for me.  One was a 48 volt pack of 12 volt Battle Bornes 
> and the other was a 24 volt pack of SOKs.  What happens is when reaching the 
> end of the bulk charging stage, the battery voltage spikes and sends the 
> inverter into an overvoltage error.  Can anyone explain what is happening and 
> a solution?
> 
> Thanks,
> Kris
> 
> Shine On!
> 
> Kris Schmid
> Legacy Solar, LLC
> 137 West 1st Avenue
> Luck, WI 54853
> www.legacysolar.com
> 715-653-4295
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
> BSEE
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Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark reliability question

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

I have a dozen Sol-Arks In the field and all systems have been giving solid 
performance . The MCU board upgrade is standard and super well supported and 
easy and usually done in a preventative context. I consider that a small price 
to pay for all the Sol-Ark can do and the overall performance and what the 
feature set provides. As others have mentioned best tech support around. The 
Time of Use features are brilliant as are the robust MPPTs and the 
programmability in general allows me to optimize hybrid systems like no other 
inverter I know. For us it has replaced the venerable Sunny Island as our go-to 
for large off-grid systems.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 29, 2022, at 11:50 PM, pieter offgridenterprises.org via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> We have dozens of Solark based installs and have had excellent results. All 
> of our system have multiple parallel Solark inverters and have operated with 
> out issues. On the rare occasion that we had commissioning questions our 
> experience with Solark technical support has been outstanding, they have by 
> far the best technical support in the industry. Although Solark helped design 
> the system in question I suspect that there must be some finer points that 
> were not shared with Solark, a load side wiring problem or perhaps an 
> installation error that is causing the repeated failures. I suggest that your 
> friend gets a fresh set of eyes on the system and look for that oversite we 
> have all made and just can’t seem to see it on our own.
> Pieter Huebner
> Off Grid Enterprises
>  
> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
> Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches
> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2022 10:25 AM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Cc: Jerry Shafer 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark reliability question
>  
> Wrenches
> Solark issues, I have them living off grid, 3 phase and grid tied back up, 
> both AC and DC coupled with only one intermittent comms issue, does not seem 
> to have any more issues than OB and less than Schnieder, all are connected to 
> Fortress 18.5's or Blue Planet BMS interface seems hardy, 
> Would be good to know what issues he is having to accurately help
> Jerry
>  
> On Thu, Sep 29, 2022 at 7:01 AM jay via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I’ve got a question about how many folks are having issues with sol-ark 
> products?
> 
> the reason i ask is that i’ve got a friend, a good competent installer ( well 
> versed in OB, Schneider, magnum)  who’s had continuing nightmares with them.
> 
> he’s got 2 systems each on is a stacked pair of 12kw units, both offgrid.
> 
> each system was designed by sol-ark, meaning the design was approved by them 
> for the loads/solar etc.
> 
> He’s been through 7 MCU swaps. 
> He’s been through a field call required because the over the air firmware 
> update caused the inverters to go into 50hz and for some reason that isn’t 
> fixable via the web.
> He had an inverter that didn’t work correctly out of the box.  They charged 
> him $2500 deposit for a replacement.
> 
> Then they charged him $1500 to fix the inverter he sent back under warranty.  
> Thats right $1500 to fix a warranty which they agreed was a warranty issue.
> Hes not going to pay but this $1500 has been going on a while.  
> 
> The inverter they sent to replace the broken one had a older MCU firmware so 
> wouldn’t stack and it took tech support way to long to figure that out then 
> they had to send him a new MCU…...
> 
> And the list goes on.
> 
> But Im asking, is this poor guy just an anomaly or will anyone else chime in 
> about issues?,
> 
> Because at this point I have no desire to install one given his experiences
> 
> Jay
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> Check out 

Re: [RE-wrenches] EG4

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi All

Yes I’ve been working with EG4s for some time now. I installed 30 (154KWH) on 4 
Sunny Island’s in Feb and that system has been working flawlessly. I’ve also 
done a 4 (20.5KWWH) battery system and a 6 battery (30.7 kWH) on single 
SOl-ARKs.  And I’ve consulted in amd been monitoring some multi Solark systems. 
All work great. 

I visited the factory in Texas for a few days and helped them think about 
designing a rack with built in OCP. I’m friendly with James Showalter the CEO 
and met amd worked with the tech department. . I offered to help rewrite their 
battery manual but then couldn’t find the time though I am providing input. 

Their published recommended settings for Absorb and float are a bit too high. ( 
they just copy from the Chinese manufacturer) but on the SI system it would 
force the BMS into overvoltage cutoff every cycle. No harm is done as the bms 
protects each time but I found that setting absorb to 55.8 (with absorb time 
set to 1-3 hours depending on ratio of PV to KWH) and float to 53.8 works well. 
   I’ve found there is no reason to push LFPs past 14 v (56v) for any reason. 
And no reason to float much past 13.4 (54) LFPs are happiest between 15% and 
95% charge (hence the 80% useable).  Pushing them to 100% every time is non 
productive amd can lesson lifetime. 

Also I came on strong at first insisting like Will Prowess and many others that 
it was essential to keep battery cable lengths the same for all parallels batts 
amd racks. However bench testing and real world testing has shown otherwise 
which can translate to hundreds of dollars in saved copper.  The BMS’s 
compensate for slight resistance differences. I find that individual paralleled 
48V batteries may vary as much as 5-10% in SOC during any one point on a cycle 
but the ones showing lower at the top end of the cycle quickly make up for it 
at the lower end of the cycle. So in any one cycle every battery cycles between 
the same values even if some are pulling the weight at the higher SOCs - the 
others will then catch up due to the BMSs doing their thing. In fact we saw no 
correlation with battery cable length as differences in cell manufacture and 
perhaps temperature outweighed any effect causes by unequal cable lengths. ( 
like 3-4 feet more on 2/0 used for paralleled racks)

I’ve also discovered you can monitor 14, 28, 42 batteries if you’ld like by 
running their battery software on multiple ports connected to multiple screens 
(running the same program on two different ports of a pc)  so up to 14 batts 
per port. I then use remote viewer software to view the dedicated laptop I 
leave at each job. 

If you parallel more than one rack you should be providing OCP between racks 
and the bus bar you provide. I’ve been using Victron fused bus bar systems but 
they are expensive. Hence why I’m working with Signature Solar to provide OCP 
per rack. 

I find James amd the folks at Signature Solar to be great folks with a great 
vision amd devotion to bring the price of solar eat down while providing 
quality. 

That said I have yet to take the leap to the EG4 inverters (or any of the super 
cheap Chinese all-in-ones like MPP) I might try one in an RV but for now am 
sticking with SolArks. That said there are many companies working to bring the 
quality of the DIY all-in-ones up to speed. I’ve also installed StorzPower (Sol 
Arks with flashed ROM) and they are working on their own inverter to meet the 
need as well.  

I’ve been enjoying watching the original Hippy Tech meets Prepper tech meets 
DIY tech. Soon I think the right quality/ price point will be reached amd we’ll 
all be installing much less expensive systems. Sol Ark and SMA take note!  Bit 
it’s up to us installers to make sure that quality is up to snuff. I ding the 
sever rack batteries (EG4, StorzPower,SOK,Jakiper, etc to be quality and 
reliable. They all use the same prismatic cells. Fortress, SimpliPhi, Discover 
take note!  Less than $300/KWH is here on batts. Less than .50/watt or even 
lower on high surge -off grid capable all-in-one inverters is fast on its 
heels! 

Best,

Jeff Clearwater
CA license “#852360
C-46, C-10
Village Power Design
413-559-9763





Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 28, 2022, at 12:50 PM, Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi all, 
> 
> Does anyone have any experience with EG4 products? I am doing an off-grid 
> consultation for someone who plans on getting EG4 inverter and lithium 
> batteries. The equipment seems so cheap, yet appears to be somewhat legit. 
> They do at least have UL1741 listing. But their 6500w inverter/charger also 
> takes PV power directly and goes for $1250. And their 48V 100AH battery is 
> only $1500. I am curious if anyone has used this stuff and if it is actually 
> legit.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave
> 
> -- 
>   
> Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
> Owner | Sungineer Solar
> p: he | him | his
> a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
> w: www.sungineersolar.com
> c: (607) 288-2898
> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

I've been using two gutters with multiple 12KW Sol-Arks Installs - one 
4x4" that I mount immediately under the AC KOs using forward biased 
offset nipples (it's front face is just abouut 1/2" in front of front 
plane of Sol-Arks)  and then a 6x6" set back and down and reached with 
4" nipples extending offset nipples so that I get an AC and DC gutter - 
not sure how others are dealing with need to separate AC and DC.


For the PV  inputs on 12Kws I do two additional 1" KOs - one through the 
vertical mid-plate below the DC terminations and then one down through 
the bottom just to the rear of that plate.  That way using offsets I can 
reach the 6" DC gutter with both the Battery DC and the PV DC in one 
gutter.  I then use an LL to get the AC gutter back to the wall at one 
end.  Can send pics offlist if you are interested.


I spoke to Sol-Ark a few times about the need to give us more room and 
better KOs - putting the DCs in one plane and the ACS in another - 
giving us 2" KOs for battery cables instead of forcing each cable 
through it's own 1" etc.  Unfortunately didn't get that message through 
before they had already designed the 15 KW.


We have also just added KOs to the left side of the unit to bring in the 
PV inputs when that is more convenient.


No better tool than our hydraulic KO punch!

Hope that helps ~

Jeff

~~~
Jeff Clearwater

linkedin 
www.villagepowerdesign.com 
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~





Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 


May 8, 2022 at 11:03 AM
We cut out the bottom plate entirely with a die grinder/cut off wheel 
and then wrap the raw edge with vinyl "edge wrap" and set the 
inverters on top of 10 x 10 x whatever gutters. The layout and sizes 
of Sol-Arks knock-outs is screwy. Just need a bonding jumper between 
both enclosures. This is common practice in the industrial world when 
dealing with large VFDs and such.





--

Michael Morningstar


Morningstar Electric

PO Box 1494

Mount Shasta, CA 96067

530-921-0560

mjmornings...@gmail.com 




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Jay via RE-wrenches 
May 8, 2022 at 5:57 AM
Hi Chris,

Can’t you increase the size of the KO’s?

Jay



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Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
May 7, 2022 at 6:16 PM
Jason,

I think I agree with your interpretation of the wiring diagram. My 
hesitation is, with a 1-1/4” KO for AC inputs, only choice seems to be 
a >24” stub conduit for 2/0 conductores to a fused disconnect. Not a 
fun pipe to bend…and extra BOS seems like a less than ideal solution.


Is this your conclusion as well?

--
Chris Sparadeo


C_802-369-4458
H_802-728-3059


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ideas and racking systems for "stowing" ground mount PV array during snowy winter?

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Coming back to this Blake - seems to me you need a platform type rack 
that has a tilt-up set of legs.


The Nuance Osprey is such a rack - though I think they only go up to 35º 
but I think it could be easily adapted.  They use Earth Anchors but can 
also be mounted to sonotubes or even ground screws.


It's beefy strong - no aluminum - just might work with heavy snow.

https://nuanceenergy.com/solar-products/osprey-powerplatform

It's possible having two in portrait makes for too high a vertical but 
perhaps using 60 cell modules instead of 72 might make it workable.


Just a thought - hope it helps!

Best,

~~~
Jeff Clearwater

linkedin 
www.villagepowerdesign.com 
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~







Blake Gleason via RE-wrenches 
March 26, 2022 at 8:39 AM
Hi all,

I think there's a lot of experience on this list with PV in snowy regions.

I'm wondering if anyone has ideas and/or specific hardware/racking 
systems to allow for easy "stowing" (in vertical or near-vertical 
position) or "seasonal removal" of the ground mount PV modules for the 
winter (snow) season?  Or ideas for a completely different approach to 
solving the challenge I'm facing?


I'm planning a new off-grid system in the Sierra (around 6000') for a 
small commercial community center facility.  The facility is 
accessible and in use only during the summer months.  So, I want to 
optimize production for the summer, and also avoid having the array 
destroyed by the heavy Sierra snow during the winter.


To further paint the picture, here are some more details and constraints:

- System size: 23kW (likely 48 Silfab 490 mods)
- Must be ground mount (beautiful very tall trees completely 
surrounding all roof options)

- Must be relatively low profile, visually.  Pole mount not an option
- Ideally one clean rectangular array 4x12 mods (13' x 90') or two 4x6 
arrays (13' x 45')

- Array tilt: 10-15 deg (summer use only, must be low-profile)

There is a caretaker who has a seasonal crew, and could be trained to 
"stow" the array each season as long as that process is relatively 
straightforward.


At one end of the spectrum, it could be as simple as disconnecting and 
un-installing all of the modules to store them in a stack underneath 
the nearby deck for the winter.  I'd like to think there might be a 
more "elegant" solution (and less labor intensive, and less wear and 
tear on the modules over the years).  I wondered if there's a clever 
way to "drop" the modules to a near-vertical orientation so they could 
remain in place during the winter (some kind of hinge at the top and 
release at the bottom).  I guess this might require individual rows of 
modules instead of one large array.


(As a bonus, I'd like to keep about four mods (out of the 48) 
operational through the winter for battery maintenance and a few 
incidental loads.  These could be vertically mounted on the south side 
of one of the buildings, above the typical snow drift level, for example.)


Thanks in advance for any suggestions, ideas, things you've tried that 
haven't worked, etc!!


Best,
Blake

--

Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner
Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence
O: 510-845-2997 x128
C: 510-867-5878

1035 Folger Ave.
Berkeley, CA 94710
www.sunlightandpower.com 
License #326203



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Equipment for 400 Amp Service Supply Side & 2 200s

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Thanks August yes but am I missing where you put the third tap for the PV 
backfeed?  I need 2 x 200 amp mains plus a 200 amp pv backfees point and the 
meter needs to have test bypass links. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 29, 2022, at 10:34 AM, August Goers  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jeff -
> 
> There are several 400 A (or 320 A continuous) meter/mains on the market with 
> 2 x 200 A breakers. In the Bay Area these are frequently referred to as 
> "California 400" panels, even though they are installed with a self contained 
> 320 A rated utility meter, rather than a 400 A CT-meter. They are great for 
> systems with large energy storage, because one 200 A breaker can feed 
> non-backup loads and the other 200 A breaker can feed backup loads and solar. 
>  Anyway, here's one such example:
> 
> https://www.milbankworks.com/products/catalog/M400-UG-APS-LC
> 
> Best,
> 
> August
> Luminalt
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2022 at 10:15 AM Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches 
>>  wrote:
>> Good Day Wrenches,
>> 
>> Does anyone know of a 400 Amp Meter/Main that can accomplish the following?
>> 
>> 1)  Provide 2 x 200 Main Breakers for Loads
>> 2) Provide an easy supply side tap point for 160 Amps of Grid-tie Solar (so 
>> basically a 200 Amp backfeed)
>> 
>> I'm considering using an Eaton 324 N  (Eaton B-Line 324 N 400A, 320 A cont. 
>> 4P, 4 Jaw, Meter Socket W Link Bypass Facilities) but I'm not sure I can 
>> double lug it and then also tap off of one of the 200 Amp lines with another 
>> tap (using Ilsco IPC-250-4/0 splice connectors).
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> 
>> ~~~
>> Jeff Clearwater
>> linkedin
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> linkedin 
>> www.villagelab.net
>> www.villagepowerdesign.com
>> cell - 413-559-9763
>> ~~~
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] ​Equipment for 400 Amp Service Supply Side & 200A PV

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Thanks Vincent- thanks I’ve used this panel in the past but do you you know if 
“Manual Bypass” is the same as test link bypass - suitable  for PGE/Western 
Utilities? 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 29, 2022, at 10:38 AM, Vincent Jolissaint via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Jeff,
> 
> I prefer this panel for this need. it has a dedicated left side for (2) @100A 
> breakers max or (1) @ 200A max PV backfeed.
> 
> https://assets.new.siemens.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:4e2c50f4-f20a-481c-8cb4-bd817cd7cb04/sie-fl-400srmetercombo.pdf
> 
> In addition, it has all the features of a typical 2x200A service panel.
> 
> 
> With Regard,
> Vince Jolissaint
> Cobalt Power Systems Inc. | Director of CAD Services
> 2557 Wyandotte St.  | Mountain View CA  94043
> Office: 650.938.9574 | E-Mail vince...@cobaltpower.com
> 
>> 
>> From: Jeff Clearwater 
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Equipment for 400 Amp Service Supply Side & 2
>> 200s
>> Message-ID:
>> <84bbb4d9-73ca-f7a3-2d2c-952b35413...@villagepowerdesign.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>> 
>> Good Day Wrenches,
>> 
>> Does anyone know of a 400 Amp Meter/Main that can accomplish the following?
>> 
>> 1)? Provide 2 x 200 Main Breakers for Loads
>> 2) Provide an easy supply side tap point for 160 Amps of Grid-tie Solar 
>> (so basically a 200 Amp backfeed)
>> 
>> I'm considering using an Eaton 324 N 
>> ?
>>  
>> (Eaton B-Line 324 N 400A, 320 A cont. 4P, 4 Jaw, Meter Socket W Link 
>> Bypass Facilities) but I'm not sure I can double lug it and then also 
>> tap off of one of the 200 Amp lines with another tap (using Ilsco 
>> IPC-250-4/0 
>> 
>>  
>> splice connectors).
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> 
>> ~~~
>> Jeff Clearwater
>> linkedin 
>> 
>> 
>> linkedin 
>> www.villagelab.net 
>> www.villagepowerdesign.com 
>> cell - 413-559-9763**
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ideas and racking systems for "stowing" ground mount PV array during snowy winter?

[Jeff Clearwater via RE-wrenches]

Hi Blake,

I'm curious why the assumption that the snow will destroy the array - 
how about 3 rails instead of 2 under the modules?



Blake Gleason via RE-wrenches 
March 26, 2022 at 8:39 AM
Hi all,

I think there's a lot of experience on this list with PV in snowy regions.

I'm wondering if anyone has ideas and/or specific hardware/racking 
systems to allow for easy "stowing" (in vertical or near-vertical 
position) or "seasonal removal" of the ground mount PV modules for the 
winter (snow) season?  Or ideas for a completely different approach to 
solving the challenge I'm facing?


I'm planning a new off-grid system in the Sierra (around 6000') for a 
small commercial community center facility.  The facility is 
accessible and in use only during the summer months.  So, I want to 
optimize production for the summer, and also avoid having the array 
destroyed by the heavy Sierra snow during the winter.


To further paint the picture, here are some more details and constraints:

- System size: 23kW (likely 48 Silfab 490 mods)
- Must be ground mount (beautiful very tall trees completely 
surrounding all roof options)

- Must be relatively low profile, visually.  Pole mount not an option
- Ideally one clean rectangular array 4x12 mods (13' x 90') or two 4x6 
arrays (13' x 45')

- Array tilt: 10-15 deg (summer use only, must be low-profile)

There is a caretaker who has a seasonal crew, and could be trained to 
"stow" the array each season as long as that process is relatively 
straightforward.


At one end of the spectrum, it could be as simple as disconnecting and 
un-installing all of the modules to store them in a stack underneath 
the nearby deck for the winter.  I'd like to think there might be a 
more "elegant" solution (and less labor intensive, and less wear and 
tear on the modules over the years).  I wondered if there's a clever 
way to "drop" the modules to a near-vertical orientation so they could 
remain in place during the winter (some kind of hinge at the top and 
release at the bottom).  I guess this might require individual rows of 
modules instead of one large array.


(As a bonus, I'd like to keep about four mods (out of the 48) 
operational through the winter for battery maintenance and a few 
incidental loads.  These could be vertically mounted on the south side 
of one of the buildings, above the typical snow drift level, for example.)


Thanks in advance for any suggestions, ideas, things you've tried that 
haven't worked, etc!!


Best,
Blake

--

Blake Gleason, PE | Employee Owner
Director of Innovation and Technical Excellence
O: 510-845-2997 x128
C: 510-867-5878

1035 Folger Ave.
Berkeley, CA 94710
www.sunlightandpower.com 
License #326203



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