Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A)

[jay]

HI Glenn,

I have not X%#&*? idea of what the building department is thinking. 
They would take a sign off from a, and I quote here “california licensed 
professional”  And that is what exactly?
But yes you are correct.

200 amp 208v 3 phase service
2 existing 3kw SMA inverters
this was adding the 3rd. 
Utility was fine with the other two which were added one at a time.  ( 1 per 
year, this being year 3)


Jay

Peltz power

> On Mar 24, 2017, at 5:09 PM, Glenn Burt  wrote:
> 
> HI Jay,
>  
> Are they saying that adding the 3rd inverter will cause a greater than 3% 
> imbalance?
> How big are the inverters? Are they all the same size?
> Is it a 208 or 480 service?
>  
> -Glenn
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Jay
> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:47 PM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A)
>  
> Hi Glenn
>  
> I had it correct in the subject, but got it wrong below, here is the correct 
> number
>  
>  
>  
> 2014NEC, 705-100 (a)
>  
>  
> 
> On Mar 21, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Glenn Burt  <mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com>> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Jay,
>> I must not understand.
>> I don't see a 705.11 in the 2014 NEC.
>> From: jay <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: ‎3/‎21/‎2017 21:34
>> To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A)
>> 
>> HI All,
>> 
>> I’ve got a client who’s having some issues with the building department. 
>> (for the 705-11-A  NEC 2014)
>> Now it is true that we in California are now in 2014 NEC)
>> They are saying that he isn’t allowed to install the 3rd  inverter onto a 3 
>> phase service 
>> ( this system was done in stages, using SMA 3kw for phases 1 and 2)  
>> Now they are being stopped on adding the 3rd.
>> 
>> Anyone ever run into this before?
>> Any answers?
>> 
>> thanks
>> 
>> jay
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A)

[Glenn Burt]

HI Jay,

 

Are they saying that adding the 3rd inverter will cause a greater than 3% 
imbalance?

How big are the inverters? Are they all the same size?

Is it a 208 or 480 service?

 

-Glenn

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Jay
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 8:47 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A)

 

Hi Glenn

 

I had it correct in the subject, but got it wrong below, here is the correct 
number

 

 

 

2014NEC, 705-100 (a)

 

 


On Mar 21, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Glenn Burt mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com> > wrote:

Hi Jay,
I must not understand.
I don't see a 705.11 in the 2014 NEC.

  _  

From: jay <mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com> 
Sent: ‎3/‎21/‎2017 21:34
To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A)

HI All,

I’ve got a client who’s having some issues with the building department. (for 
the 705-11-A  NEC 2014)
Now it is true that we in California are now in 2014 NEC)
They are saying that he isn’t allowed to install the 3rd  inverter onto a 3 
phase service 
( this system was done in stages, using SMA 3kw for phases 1 and 2)  
Now they are being stopped on adding the 3rd.

Anyone ever run into this before?
Any answers?

thanks

jay


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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A)

[Jay]

Hi Glenn

I had it correct in the subject, but got it wrong below, here is the correct 
number



2014NEC, 705-100 (a)



> On Mar 21, 2017, at 8:09 PM, Glenn Burt  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jay,
> I must not understand.
> I don't see a 705.11 in the 2014 NEC.
> From: jay
> Sent: ‎3/‎21/‎2017 21:34
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A)
> 
> HI All,
> 
> I’ve got a client who’s having some issues with the building department. (for 
> the 705-11-A  NEC 2014)
> Now it is true that we in California are now in 2014 NEC)
> They are saying that he isn’t allowed to install the 3rd  inverter onto a 3 
> phase service 
> ( this system was done in stages, using SMA 3kw for phases 1 and 2)  
> Now they are being stopped on adding the 3rd.
> 
> Anyone ever run into this before?
> Any answers?
> 
> thanks
> 
> jay
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A)

[billbrooks7]

Jay,
 
You need to provide more information. The 2014 NEC is a significant improvement 
in the language related to single-phase inverters on a 3-phase service. To read 
it any other way shows a very large misunderstanding of the language.

It should be much better on the 2014 NEC, not worse. Where do they not get it. 
The old language was used routinely to prevent single-phase inverters on the 
3-phase systems. I wrote the change to the 2014 that greatly improves the 
language.

Bill.

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of jay
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2017 6:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A)

HI All,

I’ve got a client who’s having some issues with the building department. (for 
the 705-11-A  NEC 2014) Now it is true that we in California are now in 2014 
NEC) They are saying that he isn’t allowed to install the 3rd  inverter onto a 
3 phase service ( this system was done in stages, using SMA 3kw for phases 1 
and 2) Now they are being stopped on adding the 3rd.

Anyone ever run into this before?
Any answers?

thanks

jay


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[RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705-100 (A)

[jay]

HI All,

I’ve got a client who’s having some issues with the building department. (for 
the 705-11-A  NEC 2014)
Now it is true that we in California are now in 2014 NEC)
They are saying that he isn’t allowed to install the 3rd  inverter onto a 3 
phase service 
( this system was done in stages, using SMA 3kw for phases 1 and 2)  
Now they are being stopped on adding the 3rd.

Anyone ever run into this before?
Any answers?

thanks

jay


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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked

[Glenn Burt]

Hi August,

 

I do not see where the code requires that the disconnect DIRECTLY support the 
locking functionality. Any breaker can be locked open with standard LOTO 
hardware, and in my opinion would meet this code requirement of being CAPABLE 
of being locked in the open position. It does not say that it must have a 
‘lockable disconnecting means’, as the definition describes.

https://www.bradyid.com/en-us/66321/prod-2024847.html?cat=BRID2993902

 

Glenn

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of August Goers
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 6:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being 
locked

 

Hi Wrenches,

 

We have a particular plan checker who wants us to provide a lockable AC 
disconnect for our inverter output circuit. His particular issue is that he 
wants the locking mechanism to be installed and on site. Here is a little NEC 
background info:

 

2014 NEC 705.22 Disconnect Device

The disconnecting means for ungrounded conductors shall consist of a manually 
or power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the following features:

Located where readily accessible

Externally operable without exposing the operator to contact with live parts 
and, if power operable, of a type that could be opened by hand in the event of 
a power-supply failure

Plainly indicating whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position

Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and the fault current to be 
interrupted. For disconnect equipment energized from both sides, a marking 
shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the disconnect equipment 
might be energized.

Informational Note to (4): In parallel generation systems, some equipment, 
including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to be energized from both 
directions. See 240.40.

Simultaneous disconnect of all ungrounded conductors of the circuit

Capable of being locked in the open (off) position

 

NEC 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means:

Where a disconnecting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in this 
Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The provisions 
for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock installed. 

 

Many times we are using a standard back-fed circuit breaker to comply with 
705.22. Then we can supply a handle padlock attachment such as the one shown 
for Square D:

 

http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/pdf/retail/QO-and-Homeline-Accessories.pdf

 

Does anyone else have experience installing these breaker handle padlock 
attachments? My concern is whether we can find them for all of the old types of 
breakers that we have to deal with. Also, our plan checker is requiring that 
this handle padlock attachment accessory is installed at the time of our 
inspection. Is anyone else dealing with similar issues?

 

Best,

 

August

Luminalt

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked

[August Goers]

Hi Jesse,



A regular visible blade lockable AC disconnect will satisfy our plan
checker’s concern. However, the utility does not require an AC disconnect
in our area for most residential applications so oftentimes we just use the
beaker as our disconnect. If we just use a back-fed breaker, he wants us to
install a handle padlock attachment at time of inspection and keep it
there. I can see where he is coming from if you read the code sections I
listed below, I’m just trying to figure out if this is a valid
interpretation and if so how we’re going to comply.



Best,



August



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Solar
*Sent:* Thursday, April 28, 2016 7:59 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter
capable of being locked



So an AC disconnect in the inverter output between the inverter and panel
or utility disconnect if required doesn't work for him or her? The locking
provision is always in place on a standard AC disconnect.

Jesse Dahl



NABCEP PV Installation Professional

IBEW Local 292 - Electrician

Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC



Sent from my iPhone


On Apr 28, 2016, at 5:58 PM, jay  wrote:

HI August,



I guess my question is.

Are they asking for a lockout AC disconnect on a AC circuit IE from the AC
panel?

or

are they asking for a lockout from the inverter AC at the inverter?



thanks

jay



peltz power





On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:11 PM, August Goers  wrote:



Hi Wrenches,



We have a particular plan checker who wants us to provide a *lockable* AC
disconnect for our inverter output circuit. His particular issue is that he
wants the locking mechanism to be installed and on site. Here is a little
NEC background info:



2014 NEC 705.22 Disconnect Device

The disconnecting means for ungrounded conductors shall consist of a
manually or power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the
following features:

(1)Located where readily accessible

(2)Externally operable without exposing the operator to contact with
live parts and, if power operable, of a type that could be opened by hand
in the event of a power-supply failure

(3)Plainly indicating whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position

(4)Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and the fault
current to be interrupted. For disconnect equipment energized from both
sides, a marking shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the
disconnect equipment might be energized.

*Informational Note to (4): In parallel generation systems, some equipment,
including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to be energized from
both directions. See 240.40.*

(5)Simultaneous disconnect of all ungrounded conductors of the circuit

(6)Capable of being locked in the open (off) position



NEC 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means:

Where a disconnecting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in
this Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The
provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock
installed.



Many times we are using a standard back-fed circuit breaker to comply with
705.22. Then we can supply a handle padlock attachment such as the one
shown for Square D:



http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/pdf/retail/QO-and-Homeline-Accessories.pdf



Does anyone else have experience installing these breaker handle padlock
attachments? My concern is whether we can find them for all of the old
types of breakers that we have to deal with. Also, our plan checker is
requiring that this handle padlock attachment accessory is installed at the
time of our inspection. Is anyone else dealing with similar issues?



Best,



August

Luminalt











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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked

[Solar]

So an AC disconnect in the inverter output between the inverter and panel or 
utility disconnect if required doesn't work for him or her? The locking 
provision is always in place on a standard AC disconnect. 

Jesse Dahl

NABCEP PV Installation Professional
IBEW Local 292 - Electrician 
Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 28, 2016, at 5:58 PM, jay  wrote:
> 
> HI August,
> 
> I guess my question is.  
> Are they asking for a lockout AC disconnect on a AC circuit IE from the AC 
> panel?
> or
> are they asking for a lockout from the inverter AC at the inverter?
> 
> thanks
> jay
> 
> peltz power
> 
> 
>> On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:11 PM, August Goers  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Wrenches,
>>  
>> We have a particular plan checker who wants us to provide a lockable AC 
>> disconnect for our inverter output circuit. His particular issue is that he 
>> wants the locking mechanism to be installed and on site. Here is a little 
>> NEC background info:
>>  
>> 2014 NEC 705.22 Disconnect Device
>> The disconnecting means for ungrounded conductors shall consist of a 
>> manually or power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the 
>> following features:
>> (1)Located where readily accessible
>> (2)Externally operable without exposing the operator to contact with 
>> live parts and, if power operable, of a type that could be opened by hand in 
>> the event of a power-supply failure
>> (3)Plainly indicating whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position
>> (4)Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and the fault 
>> current to be interrupted. For disconnect equipment energized from both 
>> sides, a marking shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the 
>> disconnect equipment might be energized.
>> Informational Note to (4): In parallel generation systems, some equipment, 
>> including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to be energized from 
>> both directions. See 240.40.
>> (5)Simultaneous disconnect of all ungrounded conductors of the circuit
>> (6)Capable of being locked in the open (off) position
>>  
>> NEC 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means:
>> Where a disconnecting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in 
>> this Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The 
>> provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock 
>> installed. 
>>  
>> Many times we are using a standard back-fed circuit breaker to comply with 
>> 705.22. Then we can supply a handle padlock attachment such as the one shown 
>> for Square D:
>>  
>> http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/pdf/retail/QO-and-Homeline-Accessories.pdf
>>  
>> Does anyone else have experience installing these breaker handle padlock 
>> attachments? My concern is whether we can find them for all of the old types 
>> of breakers that we have to deal with. Also, our plan checker is requiring 
>> that this handle padlock attachment accessory is installed at the time of 
>> our inspection. Is anyone else dealing with similar issues?
>>  
>> Best,
>>  
>> August
>> Luminalt
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
>>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked

[jay]

HI August,

I guess my question is.  
Are they asking for a lockout AC disconnect on a AC circuit IE from the AC 
panel?
or
are they asking for a lockout from the inverter AC at the inverter?

thanks
jay

peltz power


> On Apr 28, 2016, at 3:11 PM, August Goers  wrote:
> 
> Hi Wrenches,
>  
> We have a particular plan checker who wants us to provide a lockable AC 
> disconnect for our inverter output circuit. His particular issue is that he 
> wants the locking mechanism to be installed and on site. Here is a little NEC 
> background info:
>  
> 2014 NEC 705.22 Disconnect Device
> The disconnecting means for ungrounded conductors shall consist of a manually 
> or power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the following 
> features:
> (1)Located where readily accessible
> (2)Externally operable without exposing the operator to contact with live 
> parts and, if power operable, of a type that could be opened by hand in the 
> event of a power-supply failure
> (3)Plainly indicating whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position
> (4)Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and the fault 
> current to be interrupted. For disconnect equipment energized from both 
> sides, a marking shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the 
> disconnect equipment might be energized.
> Informational Note to (4): In parallel generation systems, some equipment, 
> including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to be energized from both 
> directions. See 240.40.
> (5)Simultaneous disconnect of all ungrounded conductors of the circuit
> (6)Capable of being locked in the open (off) position
>  
> NEC 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means:
> Where a disconnecting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in this 
> Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The 
> provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock 
> installed. 
>  
> Many times we are using a standard back-fed circuit breaker to comply with 
> 705.22. Then we can supply a handle padlock attachment such as the one shown 
> for Square D:
>  
> http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/pdf/retail/QO-and-Homeline-Accessories.pdf
>  
> 
>  
> Does anyone else have experience installing these breaker handle padlock 
> attachments? My concern is whether we can find them for all of the old types 
> of breakers that we have to deal with. Also, our plan checker is requiring 
> that this handle padlock attachment accessory is installed at the time of our 
> inspection. Is anyone else dealing with similar issues?
>  
> Best,
>  
> August
> Luminalt
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked

[William Miller]

August:



You might make the case that a standard load center is externally operable
(external as in outside the dead-front) and is lockable (with a lockout
kit).



Sounds like another renegade building official.  Good luck.



William





[image: Gradient Cap_mini]
Lic 773985
millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
805-438-5600



*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *August Goers
*Sent:* Thursday, April 28, 2016 3:11 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of
being locked



Hi Wrenches,



We have a particular plan checker who wants us to provide a *lockable* AC
disconnect for our inverter output circuit. His particular issue is that he
wants the locking mechanism to be installed and on site. Here is a little
NEC background info:



2014 NEC 705.22 Disconnect Device

The disconnecting means for ungrounded conductors shall consist of a
manually or power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the
following features:

Located where readily accessible

Externally operable without exposing the operator to contact with live
parts and, if power operable, of a type that could be opened by hand in the
event of a power-supply failure

Plainly indicating whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position

Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and the fault current
to be interrupted. For disconnect equipment energized from both sides, a
marking shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the disconnect
equipment might be energized.

*Informational Note to (4): In parallel generation systems, some equipment,
including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to be energized from
both directions. See 240.40.*

Simultaneous disconnect of all ungrounded conductors of the circuit

Capable of being locked in the open (off) position



NEC 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means:

Where a disconnecting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in
this Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The
provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock
installed.



Many times we are using a standard back-fed circuit breaker to comply with
705.22. Then we can supply a handle padlock attachment such as the one
shown for Square D:



http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/pdf/retail/QO-and-Homeline-Accessories.pdf



Does anyone else have experience installing these breaker handle padlock
attachments? My concern is whether we can find them for all of the old
types of breakers that we have to deal with. Also, our plan checker is
requiring that this handle padlock attachment accessory is installed at the
time of our inspection. Is anyone else dealing with similar issues?



Best,



August

Luminalt
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[RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC 705.22 disconnect for inverter capable of being locked

[August Goers]

Hi Wrenches,



We have a particular plan checker who wants us to provide a *lockable* AC
disconnect for our inverter output circuit. His particular issue is that he
wants the locking mechanism to be installed and on site. Here is a little
NEC background info:



2014 NEC 705.22 Disconnect Device

The disconnecting means for ungrounded conductors shall consist of a
manually or power operable switch(es) or circuit breaker(s) with the
following features:

(1)Located where readily accessible

(2)Externally operable without exposing the operator to contact with
live parts and, if power operable, of a type that could be opened by hand
in the event of a power-supply failure

(3)Plainly indicating whether in the open (off) or closed (on) position

(4)Having ratings not less than the load to be carried and the fault
current to be interrupted. For disconnect equipment energized from both
sides, a marking shall be provided to indicate that all contacts of the
disconnect equipment might be energized.

*Informational Note to (4): In parallel generation systems, some equipment,
including knife blade switches and fuses, is likely to be energized from
both directions. See 240.40.*

(5)Simultaneous disconnect of all ungrounded conductors of the circuit

(6)Capable of being locked in the open (off) position



NEC 110.25 Lockable Disconnecting Means:

Where a disconnecting means is required to be lockable open elsewhere in
this Code, it shall be capable of being locked in the open position. The
provisions for locking shall remain in place with or without the lock
installed.



Many times we are using a standard back-fed circuit breaker to comply with
705.22. Then we can supply a handle padlock attachment such as the one
shown for Square D:



http://static.schneider-electric.us/assets/pdf/retail/QO-and-Homeline-Accessories.pdf



Does anyone else have experience installing these breaker handle padlock
attachments? My concern is whether we can find them for all of the old
types of breakers that we have to deal with. Also, our plan checker is
requiring that this handle padlock attachment accessory is installed at the
time of our inspection. Is anyone else dealing with similar issues?



Best,



August

Luminalt
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC AFCI

[Kirk Herander]

To totally protect the AFCI, you'd somehow have to switch the arc-fault breaker 
in circuit after the inverters turn on. You could do it using two breakers in 
the inverter panel, one AFCI, one not, each with a power relay between grid 
panel and load side of the respective breaker. The AFCI relay is off at first, 
the regular breaker relay on. Once the inverters turn on, time delay relays 
energize to the switch AFCI power relay on, wait a second, then switch regular 
breaker power relay off. That way the inverter panel does not lose grid power 
and inverters stay up, and all PV is travelling to the grid panel via the AFCI. 
So for a very short time interval both AFCI and non-AFCI breakers are splitting 
the inverter current to the grid. And of course in this scenario the inverters 
are non-arc fault protected for a very short period of time. At least you'll 
get an inspector scratching their head.

 

My advice: stick with Solaredge. Obviously too much time on my hands today.

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC 

Un-Common PV since 1991

www.vermontsolarnow.com

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Kirk Herander
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:50 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC AFCI

 

I get it about the delay. If you reset and close the tripped AFCI (or the grid 
comes back up after a power failure), you’ll have to wait 5 mins. before the 
inverters start to push power to the grid. But the AFCI is not being backfed 
during this wait. The same would occur overnight until the inverters wake up in 
the morning. If the AFCI breaker, when closed, is subject to damage with grid 
voltage on the load side when the inverters are not operational, then it’s a 
lot trickier to get the relay scenario to work. Maybe it isn’t doable. 

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC 

Un-Common PV since 1991

www.vermontsolarnow.com

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of jay peltz
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 11:15 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC AFCI

 

Hi Kirk

 

I thought about that, but you'll still need it on for the 5 minute clock. 

If Nick is right and no voltage is acceptable on output side, then I don't see 
how even with relays etc to get it to work?

 

Jay

Peltz power

 

 

 

 

 


On May 28, 2014, at 7:32 AM, "Kirk Herander"  wrote:

Sounds like you need the load side of the AFCI to disconnect from the grid if 
it trips. So you could have a power relay between grid and load side of the 
AFCI, the relay coil energized from the line side of the AFCI, i.e. the Enphase 
panel the AFCI is plugged into. So if it trips, power is lost on the Enphase 
panel buss, and the load side relay opens, disconnecting the AFCI from the grid.

So no grid power on load side of AFCI when open. Acceptable?

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC 

Un-Common PV since 1991

www.vermontsolarnow.com

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Nick Soleil
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 12:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

 

Hi Jay,

It is not acceptable to wire the AFCI breaker with the utility power on the 
output of the AFCI breaker.  That does not meet the specifications for the AFCI 
breakers.  These breakers are sensitive to having voltage on their output when 
the breaker is opened, which can damage the AFCI breakers.

Currently, there are no AFCI circuit breakers that are listed for back-feed.

 

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM, jay peltz  wrote:

HI Will,

 

You can do this.

 

Take a standard breaker panel, install a Arc fault and run the wiring from the 
enphase like it is the grid: ie into the main lugs.

Then this will go out through the breaker in the correct fashion, and onto the 
main panel.

 

jay

 

peltz power

 

PS as to the code, they want it this way

 

 

On May 20, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Will White wrote:

 

Wrenches,

 

Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass we’re 
having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array of 
different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, 
disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in attics, or only 
disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies between inspectors.

 

We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be back 
fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway. 

 

It’s getting very difficu

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC AFCI

[Kirk Herander]

I get it about the delay. If you reset and close the tripped AFCI (or the grid 
comes back up after a power failure), you’ll have to wait 5 mins. before the 
inverters start to push power to the grid. But the AFCI is not being backfed 
during this wait. The same would occur overnight until the inverters wake up in 
the morning. If the AFCI breaker, when closed, is subject to damage with grid 
voltage on the load side when the inverters are not operational, then it’s a 
lot trickier to get the relay scenario to work. Maybe it isn’t doable. 

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC 

Un-Common PV since 1991

www.vermontsolarnow.com

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of jay peltz
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 11:15 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC AFCI

 

Hi Kirk

 

I thought about that, but you'll still need it on for the 5 minute clock. 

If Nick is right and no voltage is acceptable on output side, then I don't see 
how even with relays etc to get it to work?

 

Jay

Peltz power

 

 

 

 

 


On May 28, 2014, at 7:32 AM, "Kirk Herander"  wrote:

Sounds like you need the load side of the AFCI to disconnect from the grid if 
it trips. So you could have a power relay between grid and load side of the 
AFCI, the relay coil energized from the line side of the AFCI, i.e. the Enphase 
panel the AFCI is plugged into. So if it trips, power is lost on the Enphase 
panel buss, and the load side relay opens, disconnecting the AFCI from the grid.

So no grid power on load side of AFCI when open. Acceptable?

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC 

Un-Common PV since 1991

www.vermontsolarnow.com

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Nick Soleil
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 12:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

 

Hi Jay,

It is not acceptable to wire the AFCI breaker with the utility power on the 
output of the AFCI breaker.  That does not meet the specifications for the AFCI 
breakers.  These breakers are sensitive to having voltage on their output when 
the breaker is opened, which can damage the AFCI breakers.

Currently, there are no AFCI circuit breakers that are listed for back-feed.

 

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM, jay peltz  wrote:

HI Will,

 

You can do this.

 

Take a standard breaker panel, install a Arc fault and run the wiring from the 
enphase like it is the grid: ie into the main lugs.

Then this will go out through the breaker in the correct fashion, and onto the 
main panel.

 

jay

 

peltz power

 

PS as to the code, they want it this way

 

 

On May 20, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Will White wrote:

 

Wrenches,

 

Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass we’re 
having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array of 
different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, 
disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in attics, or only 
disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies between inspectors.

 

We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be back 
fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway. 

 

It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.

 

Thanks,

Will

 


Will White
Operations Manager - New England

RGS Energy




64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980


 <http://www.rgsenergy.com/> RGSEnergy.com |  
<mailto:william.wh...@rgsenergy.com> william.wh...@rgsenergy.com



 

 

 

 

 

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Cordially,

Nick Soleil

Field Applications Engineer

Enphase Energy

Mobile: (707) 321-2937

 
<http://enphase.com/enlighten_content/myenlighten-

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC AFCI

[Kirk Herander]

Hi, Why would the relay need to be on a timer?

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC 

Un-Common PV since 1991

www.vermontsolarnow.com

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of jay peltz
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 11:15 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC AFCI

 

Hi Kirk

 

I thought about that, but you'll still need it on for the 5 minute clock. 

If Nick is right and no voltage is acceptable on output side, then I don't see 
how even with relays etc to get it to work?

 

Jay

Peltz power

 

 

 

 

 


On May 28, 2014, at 7:32 AM, "Kirk Herander"  wrote:

Sounds like you need the load side of the AFCI to disconnect from the grid if 
it trips. So you could have a power relay between grid and load side of the 
AFCI, the relay coil energized from the line side of the AFCI, i.e. the Enphase 
panel the AFCI is plugged into. So if it trips, power is lost on the Enphase 
panel buss, and the load side relay opens, disconnecting the AFCI from the grid.

So no grid power on load side of AFCI when open. Acceptable?

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC 

Un-Common PV since 1991

www.vermontsolarnow.com

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Nick Soleil
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 12:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

 

Hi Jay,

It is not acceptable to wire the AFCI breaker with the utility power on the 
output of the AFCI breaker.  That does not meet the specifications for the AFCI 
breakers.  These breakers are sensitive to having voltage on their output when 
the breaker is opened, which can damage the AFCI breakers.

Currently, there are no AFCI circuit breakers that are listed for back-feed.

 

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM, jay peltz  wrote:

HI Will,

 

You can do this.

 

Take a standard breaker panel, install a Arc fault and run the wiring from the 
enphase like it is the grid: ie into the main lugs.

Then this will go out through the breaker in the correct fashion, and onto the 
main panel.

 

jay

 

peltz power

 

PS as to the code, they want it this way

 

 

On May 20, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Will White wrote:

 

Wrenches,

 

Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass we’re 
having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array of 
different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, 
disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in attics, or only 
disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies between inspectors.

 

We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be back 
fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway. 

 

It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.

 

Thanks,

Will

 


Will White
Operations Manager - New England

RGS Energy




64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980


 <http://www.rgsenergy.com/> RGSEnergy.com |  
<mailto:william.wh...@rgsenergy.com> william.wh...@rgsenergy.com



 

 

 

 

 

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-- 

Cordially,

Nick Soleil

Field Applications Engineer

Enphase Energy

Mobile: (707) 321-2937

 
<http://enphase.com/enlighten_content/myenlighten-launch-site/?utm_source=MyEnlightenPromo&utm_medium=Email_Sig&utm_campaign=MyEnlighten>
 


 
<http://enphase.com/enlighten_content/myenlighten-launch-site/?utm_source=MyEnlightenPromo&utm_medium=Email_Sig&utm_campaign=MyEnlighten>
 MyEnlighten is Coming. Get Ready

 
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1420 North McDowell

Petaluma, CA 94954

www.enphase.com <http://www.enphaseenergy.com/>

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC AFCI

[jay peltz]

Hi Kirk

I thought about that, but you'll still need it on for the 5 minute clock. 
If Nick is right and no voltage is acceptable on output side, then I don't see 
how even with relays etc to get it to work?

Jay
Peltz power







> On May 28, 2014, at 7:32 AM, "Kirk Herander"  wrote:
> 
> Sounds like you need the load side of the AFCI to disconnect from the grid if 
> it trips. So you could have a power relay between grid and load side of the 
> AFCI, the relay coil energized from the line side of the AFCI, i.e. the 
> Enphase panel the AFCI is plugged into. So if it trips, power is lost on the 
> Enphase panel buss, and the load side relay opens, disconnecting the AFCI 
> from the grid.
> So no grid power on load side of AFCI when open. Acceptable?
>  
> Kirk Herander
> VT Solar, LLC
> Un-Common PV since 1991
> www.vermontsolarnow.com
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
> NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant
> VT RE Incentive Program Partner
> 802.863.1202
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Nick Soleil
> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 12:01 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC
>  
> Hi Jay,
> 
> It is not acceptable to wire the AFCI breaker with the utility power on the 
> output of the AFCI breaker.  That does not meet the specifications for the 
> AFCI breakers.  These breakers are sensitive to having voltage on their 
> output when the breaker is opened, which can damage the AFCI breakers.
> 
> Currently, there are no AFCI circuit breakers that are listed for back-feed.
>  
> 
> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM, jay peltz  wrote:
> HI Will,
>  
> You can do this.
>  
> Take a standard breaker panel, install a Arc fault and run the wiring from 
> the enphase like it is the grid: ie into the main lugs.
> Then this will go out through the breaker in the correct fashion, and onto 
> the main panel.
>  
> jay
>  
> peltz power
>  
> PS as to the code, they want it this way
>  
>  
> On May 20, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Will White wrote:
>  
> Wrenches,
>  
> Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass 
> we’re having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array 
> of different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top 
> disconnects, disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in 
> attics, or only disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies 
> between inspectors.
>  
> We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
> Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be 
> back fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway. 
>  
> It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.
>  
> Thanks,
> Will
>  
> Will White
> Operations Manager - New England
> RGS Energy
> 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
> tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980
> RGSEnergy.com | william.wh...@rgsenergy.com
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change email address & settings:
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Cordially,
> Nick Soleil
> Field Applications Engineer
> Enphase Energy
> Mobile: (707) 321-2937
> 
> MyEnlighten is Coming. Get Ready
> 
> 1420 North McDowell
> Petaluma, CA 94954
> www.enphase.com
> P: (707) 763-4784 x7267
> F: (707) 763-0784
> E: nsol...@enphaseenergy.com
>  
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300
> California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315
> Texas Master Electrician #284451
> “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to 
> fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor 
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC AFCI

[Kirk Herander]

Sounds like you need the load side of the AFCI to disconnect from the grid if 
it trips. So you could have a power relay between grid and load side of the 
AFCI, the relay coil energized from the line side of the AFCI, i.e. the Enphase 
panel the AFCI is plugged into. So if it trips, power is lost on the Enphase 
panel buss, and the load side relay opens, disconnecting the AFCI from the grid.

So no grid power on load side of AFCI when open. Acceptable?

 

Kirk Herander

VT Solar, LLC 

Un-Common PV since 1991

www.vermontsolarnow.com

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Nick Soleil
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 12:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

 

Hi Jay,

It is not acceptable to wire the AFCI breaker with the utility power on the 
output of the AFCI breaker.  That does not meet the specifications for the AFCI 
breakers.  These breakers are sensitive to having voltage on their output when 
the breaker is opened, which can damage the AFCI breakers.

Currently, there are no AFCI circuit breakers that are listed for back-feed.

 

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM, jay peltz  wrote:

HI Will,

 

You can do this.

 

Take a standard breaker panel, install a Arc fault and run the wiring from the 
enphase like it is the grid: ie into the main lugs.

Then this will go out through the breaker in the correct fashion, and onto the 
main panel.

 

jay

 

peltz power

 

PS as to the code, they want it this way

 

 

On May 20, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Will White wrote:

 

Wrenches,

 

Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass we’re 
having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array of 
different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, 
disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in attics, or only 
disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies between inspectors.

 

We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be back 
fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway. 

 

It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.

 

Thanks,

Will

 


Will White
Operations Manager - New England

RGS Energy




64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980


 <http://www.rgsenergy.com/> RGSEnergy.com |  
<mailto:william.wh...@rgsenergy.com> william.wh...@rgsenergy.com



 

 

 

 

 

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-- 

Cordially,

Nick Soleil

Field Applications Engineer

Enphase Energy

Mobile: (707) 321-2937

 
<http://enphase.com/enlighten_content/myenlighten-launch-site/?utm_source=MyEnlightenPromo&utm_medium=Email_Sig&utm_campaign=MyEnlighten>
 


 
<http://enphase.com/enlighten_content/myenlighten-launch-site/?utm_source=MyEnlightenPromo&utm_medium=Email_Sig&utm_campaign=MyEnlighten>
 MyEnlighten is Coming. Get Ready

 
<http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=email&utm_medium=sig&utm_campaign=Comm2012>
 


1420 North McDowell

Petaluma, CA 94954

www.enphase.com <http://www.enphaseenergy.com/> 

P: (707) 763-4784 x7267

F: (707) 763-0784

E: nsol...@enphaseenergy.com

 

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300

California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315

Texas Master Electrician #284451

“Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to 
fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely 
banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in 
just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!”  

- William McDonough 

 
 
This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may 
contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended 
recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. 
If you r

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[William Korthof]

Code insanity. 
There is never voltage on the load side of an open AC switch, arc fault, or 
circuit breaker device supplying a solar inverter that meets UL1741. Solar 
inverters are current sources only, and only while utility voltage is present. 

/wk

William Korthof
714.875.3576
Sustainable Solutions
#956904

On May 27, 2014, at 12:28 PM, Will White  wrote:

We’ve run into the problem in MA where the electrical board suggested we cut 
apart Enphase trunk cable to put it in a raceway.  We all know that isn’t 
possible.
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 3:18 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC
 
Nick and Jay,
 
There is a basic problem that products are not currently available to 
specifically address this application. I know Enphase has done a lot of 
research lately about this issue, so they may have uncovered problems that were 
previously not known. My information is that the products are actually 
bi-directional devices. GFCIs are not bi-direction and can fail with voltage on 
the load side of the device. It is possible that some AFCIs have the same 
problem.
 
This AFCI provision is a requirement that was sold to UL and the Code Making 
Panel with the assurance from a very large breaker manufacturer that developing 
products for this application was simple and straightforward.
 
That manufacturer has not stepped forward with a product and so we find 
ourselves in 90.4 land (use the previous version of the code). Some AHJs have 
chosen not to read it that way and have been requiring micro-inverter systems 
to be installed raceways (even though not compatible with raceways). NFPA 
likely have to issue an official interpretation on this since it is unclear 
whether a product will be developed in the reasonable future.
 
Bill.
 
 
 
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Jay Peltz
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:32 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC
 
Hi nick
 
Good to know, I was told this by bill brooks at a training a few months ago. 
 
Jay

Sent from my iPhone

On May 27, 2014, at 9:00 AM, Nick Soleil  wrote:

Hi Jay,

It is not acceptable to wire the AFCI breaker with the utility power on the 
output of the AFCI breaker.  That does not meet the specifications for the AFCI 
breakers.  These breakers are sensitive to having voltage on their output when 
the breaker is opened, which can damage the AFCI breakers.

Currently, there are no AFCI circuit breakers that are listed for back-feed.
 

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM, jay peltz  wrote:
HI Will,
 
You can do this.
 
Take a standard breaker panel, install a Arc fault and run the wiring from the 
enphase like it is the grid: ie into the main lugs.
Then this will go out through the breaker in the correct fashion, and onto the 
main panel.
 
jay
 
peltz power
 
PS as to the code, they want it this way
 
 
On May 20, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Will White wrote:
 
Wrenches,
 
Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass we’re 
having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array of 
different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, 
disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in attics, or only 
disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies between inspectors.
 
We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be back 
fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway. 
 
It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.
 
Thanks,
Will
 
Will White
Operations Manager - New England
RGS Energy
64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980
RGSEnergy.com | william.wh...@rgsenergy.com
 
 
 
 
 
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--
Cordially,
Nick Soleil
Field Applications Engineer
Enphase Energy
Mobile: (707) 321-2937

MyEnlighten is Coming. Get Ready

1420 North McDowell
Petaluma, CA 949

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[Will White]

We’ve run into the problem in MA where the electrical board suggested we cut 
apart Enphase trunk cable to put it in a raceway.  We all know that isn’t 
possible.

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Bill Brooks
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 3:18 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

Nick and Jay,

There is a basic problem that products are not currently available to 
specifically address this application. I know Enphase has done a lot of 
research lately about this issue, so they may have uncovered problems that were 
previously not known. My information is that the products are actually 
bi-directional devices. GFCIs are not bi-direction and can fail with voltage on 
the load side of the device. It is possible that some AFCIs have the same 
problem.

This AFCI provision is a requirement that was sold to UL and the Code Making 
Panel with the assurance from a very large breaker manufacturer that developing 
products for this application was simple and straightforward.

That manufacturer has not stepped forward with a product and so we find 
ourselves in 90.4 land (use the previous version of the code). Some AHJs have 
chosen not to read it that way and have been requiring micro-inverter systems 
to be installed raceways (even though not compatible with raceways). NFPA 
likely have to issue an official interpretation on this since it is unclear 
whether a product will be developed in the reasonable future.

Bill.



From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Jay Peltz
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:32 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

Hi nick

Good to know, I was told this by bill brooks at a training a few months ago.

Jay

Sent from my iPhone

On May 27, 2014, at 9:00 AM, Nick Soleil 
mailto:nsol...@enphaseenergy.com>> wrote:
Hi Jay,
It is not acceptable to wire the AFCI breaker with the utility power on the 
output of the AFCI breaker.  That does not meet the specifications for the AFCI 
breakers.  These breakers are sensitive to having voltage on their output when 
the breaker is opened, which can damage the AFCI breakers.
Currently, there are no AFCI circuit breakers that are listed for back-feed.

On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM, jay peltz 
mailto:j...@asis.com>> wrote:
HI Will,

You can do this.

Take a standard breaker panel, install a Arc fault and run the wiring from the 
enphase like it is the grid: ie into the main lugs.
Then this will go out through the breaker in the correct fashion, and onto the 
main panel.

jay

peltz power

PS as to the code, they want it this way


On May 20, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Will White wrote:

Wrenches,

Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass we’re 
having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array of 
different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, 
disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in attics, or only 
disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies between inspectors.

We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be back 
fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway.

It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.

Thanks,
Will

Will White
Operations Manager - New England
RGS Energy


64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | 
fax 802.223.8980

RGSEnergy.com<http://www.rgsenergy.com/> | 
william.wh...@rgsenergy.com<mailto:william.wh...@rgsenergy.com>







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--

Cordially,

Nick Soleil

Field Applications Engineer

Enphase Energy

Mobile: (707) 321-2937


<http://enphase.com/enlighten_conte

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[Bill Brooks]

Nick and Jay,



There is a basic problem that products are not currently available to 
specifically address this application. I know Enphase has done a lot of 
research lately about this issue, so they may have uncovered problems that were 
previously not known. My information is that the products are actually 
bi-directional devices. GFCIs are not bi-direction and can fail with voltage on 
the load side of the device. It is possible that some AFCIs have the same 
problem.



This AFCI provision is a requirement that was sold to UL and the Code Making 
Panel with the assurance from a very large breaker manufacturer that developing 
products for this application was simple and straightforward.



That manufacturer has not stepped forward with a product and so we find 
ourselves in 90.4 land (use the previous version of the code). Some AHJs have 
chosen not to read it that way and have been requiring micro-inverter systems 
to be installed raceways (even though not compatible with raceways). NFPA 
likely have to issue an official interpretation on this since it is unclear 
whether a product will be developed in the reasonable future.



Bill.







From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Jay Peltz
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 11:32 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC



Hi nick



Good to know, I was told this by bill brooks at a training a few months ago.



Jay

Sent from my iPhone


On May 27, 2014, at 9:00 AM, Nick Soleil mailto:nsol...@enphaseenergy.com> > wrote:

Hi Jay,

It is not acceptable to wire the AFCI breaker with the utility power on the 
output of the AFCI breaker.  That does not meet the specifications for the AFCI 
breakers.  These breakers are sensitive to having voltage on their output when 
the breaker is opened, which can damage the AFCI breakers.

Currently, there are no AFCI circuit breakers that are listed for back-feed.



On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM, jay peltz mailto:j...@asis.com> > wrote:

HI Will,



You can do this.



Take a standard breaker panel, install a Arc fault and run the wiring from the 
enphase like it is the grid: ie into the main lugs.

Then this will go out through the breaker in the correct fashion, and onto the 
main panel.



jay



peltz power



PS as to the code, they want it this way





On May 20, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Will White wrote:



Wrenches,



Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass we’re 
having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array of 
different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, 
disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in attics, or only 
disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies between inspectors.



We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be back 
fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway.



It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.



Thanks,

Will




Will White
Operations Manager - New England

RGS Energy




64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
tel 802.223.7804   | mobile 802.234.3167   
| fax 802.223.8980 


 <http://www.rgsenergy.com/> RGSEnergy.com |  
<mailto:william.wh...@rgsenergy.com> william.wh...@rgsenergy.com













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--

Cordially,

Nick Soleil

Field Applications Engineer

Enphase Energy

Mobile: (707) 321-2937

 
<http://enphase.com/enlighten_content/myenlighten-launch-site/?utm_source=MyEnlightenPromo&utm_medium=Email_Sig&utm_campaign=MyEnlighten>


 
<http://enphase.com/enlighten_content/myenlighten-launch-site/?utm_source=MyEnlightenPromo&utm_medium=Email_Sig&utm_campaign=MyEnlighten>

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[Jay Peltz]

Hi nick

Good to know, I was told this by bill brooks at a training a few months ago. 

Jay

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 27, 2014, at 9:00 AM, Nick Soleil  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jay,
> 
> It is not acceptable to wire the AFCI breaker with the utility power on the 
> output of the AFCI breaker.  That does not meet the specifications for the 
> AFCI breakers.  These breakers are sensitive to having voltage on their 
> output when the breaker is opened, which can damage the AFCI breakers.
> 
> Currently, there are no AFCI circuit breakers that are listed for back-feed.
> 
> 
>> On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM, jay peltz  wrote:
>> HI Will,
>> 
>> You can do this.
>> 
>> Take a standard breaker panel, install a Arc fault and run the wiring from 
>> the enphase like it is the grid: ie into the main lugs.
>> Then this will go out through the breaker in the correct fashion, and onto 
>> the main panel.
>> 
>> jay
>> 
>> peltz power
>> 
>> PS as to the code, they want it this way
>> 
>> 
>>> On May 20, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Will White wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wrenches,
>>>  
>>> Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass 
>>> we’re having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an 
>>> array of different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top 
>>> disconnects, disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in 
>>> attics, or only disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies 
>>> between inspectors.
>>>  
>>> We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers 
>>> on Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can 
>>> be back fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway. 
>>>  
>>> It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.
>>>  
>>> Thanks,
>>> Will
>>>  
>>> Will White
>>> Operations Manager - New England
>>> RGS Energy
>>> 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
>>> tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980
>>> RGSEnergy.com | william.wh...@rgsenergy.com
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>> 
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>> 
>>> Change email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>> 
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>>> 
>>> Check out participant bios:
>>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Cordially,
> Nick Soleil
> Field Applications Engineer
> Enphase Energy
> Mobile: (707) 321-2937
> 
> MyEnlighten is Coming. Get Ready
> 
> 1420 North McDowell
> Petaluma, CA 94954
> www.enphase.com
> P: (707) 763-4784 x7267
> F: (707) 763-0784
> E: nsol...@enphaseenergy.com
> 
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300
> California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315
> Texas Master Electrician #284451
> “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to 
> fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor 
> safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could 
> ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!”  
> 
> - William McDonough
> 
> 
> This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may 
> contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an 
> intended recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute 
> this message. If you received this message in error, please contact the 
> sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. 
> 
> ___
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List rules

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[Nick Soleil]

Hi Jay,

It is not acceptable to wire the AFCI breaker with the utility power on the
output of the AFCI breaker.  That does not meet the specifications for the
AFCI breakers.  These breakers are sensitive to having voltage on their
output when the breaker is opened, which can damage the AFCI breakers.

Currently, there are no AFCI circuit breakers that are listed for back-feed.


On Tue, May 20, 2014 at 8:10 AM, jay peltz  wrote:

> HI Will,
>
> You can do this.
>
> Take a standard breaker panel, install a Arc fault and run the wiring from
> the enphase like it is the grid: ie into the main lugs.
> Then this will go out through the breaker in the correct fashion, and onto
> the main panel.
>
> jay
>
> peltz power
>
> PS as to the code, they want it this way
>
>
> On May 20, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Will White wrote:
>
> Wrenches,
>
> Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass
> we’re having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an
> array of different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top
> disconnects, disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in
> attics, or only disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies
> between inspectors.
>
> We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers
> on Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can
> be back fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway.
>
> It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.
>
> Thanks,
> Will
>
> *Will White*
> Operations Manager - New England
> RGS Energy
>  64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
> tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980
>  *RGSEnergy.com  **| william.wh...@rgsenergy.com
> *
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>


-- 

Cordially,

*Nick Soleil*


*Field Applications Engineer*

*Enphase Energy*

Mobile: (707) 321-2937




*MyEnlighten is Coming. *Get
Ready




1420 North McDowell

Petaluma, CA 94954

www.enphase.com 

P: (707) 763-4784 x7267

F: (707) 763-0784

E: nsol...@enphaseenergy.com


NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300

California C10 Licensed Electrician #986315

Texas Master Electrician #284451

 

“Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion
to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor
safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could
ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless!”

- William McDonough



This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may 
contain confidential and/or privileged information. If you are not an intended 
recipient, you may not review, use, copy, disclose or distribute this message. 
If you received this message in error, please contact the sender by reply email 
and destroy all copies of the original message. 

___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

The MidNite Solar Birdhouses are being evaluated at UL right now...

Some inspectors are allowing it to be installed already though as the
combiners themselves are already listed.

boB

On 5/22/2014 8:48 AM, Tump wrote:
SMA will shut down w/ the removal of the meter. Installing the 
inverter w/in the 10' area will meet this requirement.

On May 21, 2014, at 9:48 PM, Jeffrey Quackenbush wrote:

I recently took a code update course with the electrical inspector in 
Andover MA, and he said that he is only allowing micro-inverter 
systems in his jurisdiction at the moment.


SolarEdge and other auxiliary optimizers are not able to certify that 
they will shut down within 10 seconds. I understand that the 
manufacturers are working on this, but I'm not sure about their 
timeframe. Most jurisdictions in MA, I believe, are accepting 
SolarEdge or Tigo systems, but they don't comply at the moment with 
the 10 second shut-down provision in 690.12 (2).


The inspector said that he is interpreting 690.12 (1) to say that the 
means of performing the shutdown should be within 10'/5' of the 
array, so that means locating the shutdown means on the roof in most 
cases. The last time I brought this up on the Wrenches list, it was 
suggested installers could use some kind of relay setup with an 
accessible activation switch and a relay disconnect. However, 690.12 
(5) says: "Equipment that performs the rapid shutdown shall be listed 
and identified". 690.12 (5) unfortunately doesn't tell us what the 
equipment should be listed and identified for. It could be listed and 
identified for the circuit characteristics and shutdown time, or it 
could be listed and identified for the requirements of 690.12 as a 
whole function with its own UL specifications. It's possible to find 
equipment for the former interpretation, but I'm not aware of 
anything available for the latter (is anyone writing a UL regime for 
this?). And I think that the latter interpretation is reasonable, 
given the ambiguity in the way the text is written, and what is 
usually meant by "listed and identified" taken together.


I like micro-inverters for small systems. And I like the SolarEdge 
model for larger systems with weird layouts, shading issues, or a 
premium on production. However, central inverters are, depending on 
the configuration and size of the system, 0.05 $/W to 0.25 $/W less 
expensive than micro-inverters or DC optimizer systems, and that 
increase in cost is most likely to come out of the contractor's 
pocket. I also see this affecting sales for companies producing 
central inverters as the 2014 code rolls out across the country. If 
someone has a solution for central inverters under 690.12 when 
dealing with skeptical AHJs, I'd appreciate hearing more about it.


Regards,
Jeffrey Quackenbush


On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 2:07 PM, Phil Forest 
mailto:pfor...@southmountain.com>> wrote:




All in all, not longer, glad to say.
Strings can have more modules, so there's fewer home runs.
Optimizer wires are longer than module wires, they even reach
when installing modules in landscape, so fewer jumpers. Be
thoughtful when mounting optimizers to rails so it's easy to
connect after module is clamped down. Bolts that attach
optimizers slide into rails from the end (UniRac SM type rails).
You supply your own nuts and bolts. They supply a star washer for
bonding optimizer to rail for EG.
We mounted optimizers to modules on one job when using UniRac
Sunframe. SunFrame is a pain in my neck, optimizers or not.
Phil Forest
South Mountain Company

On May 20, 2014, at 1:33 PM, Will White
mailto:william.wh...@rgsenergy.com>> wrote:

Phil,
Do you find that the DC optimizer adds to the amount of time on
an install?
Thanks,
Will
*From:* RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of
*Phil Forest
    *Sent:* Tuesday, May 20, 2014 1:26 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC
Will,
No problems with inspectors for us in MA, regarding rapid
shutdown, since we recently switched to using SolarEdge central
inverters with optimizer under each module, for roof mounted
installs.
So far so good. They seem well made and engineered. Tip: you have
to enable the arc fault protection when commissioning, ships
disabled.
Phil Forest
South Mountain Company

On May 20, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Will White
mailto:william.wh...@rgsenergy.com>> wrote:

Wrenches,
Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014
NEC?  In Mass we're having all kinds of issues with
inspectors requiring/allowing an array of different things
for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects,
disconnects on the side of a house 20' up, discon

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[Tump]

SMA will shut down w/ the removal of the meter. Installing the inverter w/in 
the 10' area will meet this requirement.
On May 21, 2014, at 9:48 PM, Jeffrey Quackenbush wrote:

> I recently took a code update course with the electrical inspector in Andover 
> MA, and he said that he is only allowing micro-inverter systems in his 
> jurisdiction at the moment. 
> 
> SolarEdge and other auxiliary optimizers are not able to certify that they 
> will shut down within 10 seconds. I understand that the manufacturers are 
> working on this, but I'm not sure about their timeframe. Most jurisdictions 
> in MA, I believe, are accepting SolarEdge or Tigo systems, but they don't 
> comply at the moment with the 10 second shut-down provision in 690.12 (2).
> 
> The inspector said that he is interpreting 690.12 (1) to say that the means 
> of performing the shutdown should be within 10'/5' of the array, so that 
> means locating the shutdown means on the roof in most cases. The last time I 
> brought this up on the Wrenches list, it was suggested installers could use 
> some kind of relay setup with an accessible activation switch and a relay 
> disconnect. However, 690.12 (5) says: "Equipment that performs the rapid 
> shutdown shall be listed and identified". 690.12 (5) unfortunately doesn't 
> tell us what the equipment should be listed and identified for. It could be 
> listed and identified for the circuit characteristics and shutdown time, or 
> it could be listed and identified for the requirements of 690.12 as a whole 
> function with its own UL specifications. It's possible to find equipment for 
> the former interpretation, but I'm not aware of anything available for the 
> latter (is anyone writing a UL regime for this?). And I think that the latter 
> interpretation is reasonable, given the ambiguity in the way the text is 
> written, and what is usually meant by "listed and identified" taken together.
> 
> I like micro-inverters for small systems. And I like the SolarEdge model for 
> larger systems with weird layouts, shading issues, or a premium on 
> production. However, central inverters are, depending on the configuration 
> and size of the system, 0.05 $/W to 0.25 $/W less expensive than 
> micro-inverters or DC optimizer systems, and that increase in cost is most 
> likely to come out of the contractor's pocket. I also see this affecting 
> sales for companies producing central inverters as the 2014 code rolls out 
> across the country. If someone has a solution for central inverters under 
> 690.12 when dealing with skeptical AHJs, I'd appreciate hearing more about it.
> 
> Regards,
> Jeffrey Quackenbush
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 2:07 PM, Phil Forest  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> All in all, not longer, glad to say. 
> Strings can have more modules, so there's fewer home runs. Optimizer wires 
> are longer than module wires, they even reach when installing modules in 
> landscape, so fewer jumpers. Be thoughtful when mounting optimizers to rails 
> so it's easy to connect after module is clamped down. Bolts that attach 
> optimizers slide into rails from the end (UniRac SM type rails). You supply 
> your own nuts and bolts. They supply a star washer for bonding optimizer to 
> rail for EG. 
> We mounted optimizers to modules on one job when using UniRac Sunframe. 
> SunFrame is a pain in my neck, optimizers or not. 
> Phil Forest
> South Mountain Company
> 
> On May 20, 2014, at 1:33 PM, Will White  wrote:
> 
>> 
> 
> Phil,
>  
> Do you find that the DC optimizer adds to the amount of time on an install?
>  
> Thanks,
> Will
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Phil Forest
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 1:26 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC
>  
> Will,
> No problems with inspectors for us in MA, regarding rapid shutdown, since we 
> recently switched to using SolarEdge central inverters with optimizer under 
> each module, for roof mounted installs. 
> So far so good. They seem well made and engineered. Tip: you have to enable 
> the arc fault protection when commissioning, ships disabled. 
> Phil Forest
> South Mountain Company
> 
> On May 20, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Will White  wrote:
> Wrenches,
>  
> Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass 
> we’re having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array 
> of different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top 
> disconnects, disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in 
> attics, or only disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies 
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[Jeffrey Quackenbush]

I recently took a code update course with the electrical inspector in Andover 
MA, and he said that he is only allowing micro-inverter systems in his 
jurisdiction at the moment. 

SolarEdge and other auxiliary optimizers are not able to certify that they will 
shut down within 10 seconds. I understand that the manufacturers are working on 
this, but I'm not sure about their timeframe. Most jurisdictions in MA, I 
believe, are accepting SolarEdge or Tigo systems, but they don't comply at the 
moment with the 10 second shut-down provision in 690.12 (2).

The inspector said that he is interpreting 690.12 (1) to say that the means of 
performing the shutdown should be within 10'/5' of the array, so that means 
locating the shutdown means on the roof in most cases. The last time I brought 
this up on the Wrenches list, it was suggested installers could use some kind 
of relay setup with an accessible activation switch and a relay disconnect. 
However, 690.12 (5) says: "Equipment that performs the rapid shutdown shall be 
listed and identified". 690.12 (5) unfortunately doesn't tell us what the 
equipment should be listed and identified for. It could be listed and 
identified for the circuit characteristics and shutdown time, or it could be 
listed and identified for the requirements of 690.12 as a whole function with 
its own UL specifications. It's possible to find equipment for the former 
interpretation, but I'm not aware of anything available for the latter (is 
anyone writing a UL regime for this?). And I think
 that the latter interpretation is reasonable, given the ambiguity in the way 
the text is written, and what is usually meant by "listed and identified" taken 
together.

I like micro-inverters for small systems. And I like the SolarEdge model for 
larger systems with weird layouts, shading issues, or a premium on production. 
However, central inverters are, depending on the configuration and size of the 
system, 0.05 $/W to 0.25 $/W less expensive than micro-inverters or DC 
optimizer systems, and that increase in cost is most likely to come out of the 
contractor's pocket. I also see this affecting sales for companies producing 
central inverters as the 2014 code rolls out across the country. If someone has 
a solution for central inverters under 690.12 when dealing with skeptical AHJs, 
I'd appreciate hearing more about it.

Regards,
Jeffrey Quackenbush


On Tuesday, May 20, 2014 2:07 PM, Phil Forest  wrote:
 

>
>
>All in all, not longer, glad to say. 
>Strings can have more modules, so there's fewer home runs. Optimizer wires are 
>longer than module wires, they even reach when installing modules in 
>landscape, so fewer jumpers. Be thoughtful when mounting optimizers to rails 
>so it's easy to connect after module is clamped down. Bolts that attach 
>optimizers slide into rails from the end (UniRac SM type rails). You supply 
>your own nuts and bolts. They supply a star washer for bonding optimizer to 
>rail for EG. 
>We mounted optimizers to modules on one job when using UniRac Sunframe. 
>SunFrame is a pain in my neck, optimizers or not. 
>
>Phil Forest
>South Mountain Company
>
>On May 20, 2014, at 1:33 PM, Will White  wrote:
>
>
>Phil,
> 
>Do you find that the DC optimizer adds to the amount of time on an install?
> 
>Thanks,
>Will
> 
>From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
>Of Phil Forest
>Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 1:26 PM
>To: RE-wrenches
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC
> 
>Will,
>No problems with inspectors for us in MA, regarding rapid shutdown, since we 
>recently switched to using SolarEdge central inverters with optimizer under 
>each module, for roof mounted installs. 
>So far so good. They seem well made and engineered. Tip: you have to enable 
>the arc fault protection when commissioning, ships disabled. 
>Phil Forest
>South Mountain Company
>
>On May 20, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Will White  wrote:
>Wrenches,
>> 
>>Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass 
>>we’re having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array 
>>of different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top 
>>disconnects, disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in 
>>attics, or only disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies 
>>between inspectors.
>> 
>>We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
>>Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be 
>>back fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway.  
>> 
>>It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.
>> 
>>Thanks,
>>Will
>> 
>>Will White
&

Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[Phil Forest]

All in all, not longer, glad to say. 
Strings can have more modules, so there's fewer home runs. Optimizer wires are 
longer than module wires, they even reach when installing modules in landscape, 
so fewer jumpers. Be thoughtful when mounting optimizers to rails so it's easy 
to connect after module is clamped down. Bolts that attach optimizers slide 
into rails from the end (UniRac SM type rails). You supply your own nuts and 
bolts. They supply a star washer for bonding optimizer to rail for EG. 
We mounted optimizers to modules on one job when using UniRac Sunframe. 
SunFrame is a pain in my neck, optimizers or not. 
Phil Forest
South Mountain Company

> On May 20, 2014, at 1:33 PM, Will White  wrote:
> 
> Phil,
>  
> Do you find that the DC optimizer adds to the amount of time on an install?
>  
> Thanks,
> Will
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Phil Forest
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 1:26 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC
>  
> Will,
> No problems with inspectors for us in MA, regarding rapid shutdown, since we 
> recently switched to using SolarEdge central inverters with optimizer under 
> each module, for roof mounted installs. 
> So far so good. They seem well made and engineered. Tip: you have to enable 
> the arc fault protection when commissioning, ships disabled. 
> 
> Phil Forest
> South Mountain Company
> 
> On May 20, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Will White  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches,
>  
> Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass 
> we’re having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array 
> of different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top 
> disconnects, disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in 
> attics, or only disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies 
> between inspectors.
>  
> We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
> Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be 
> back fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway. 
>  
> It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.
>  
> Thanks,
> Will
>  
> Will White
> Operations Manager - New England
> RGS Energy
> 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
> tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980
> RGSEnergy.com | william.wh...@rgsenergy.com
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
> Change email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List-Archive: 
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
> 
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
> 
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[Will White]

Phil,

Do you find that the DC optimizer adds to the amount of time on an install?

Thanks,
Will

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Phil Forest
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 1:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

Will,
No problems with inspectors for us in MA, regarding rapid shutdown, since we 
recently switched to using SolarEdge central inverters with optimizer under 
each module, for roof mounted installs.
So far so good. They seem well made and engineered. Tip: you have to enable the 
arc fault protection when commissioning, ships disabled.
Phil Forest
South Mountain Company

On May 20, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Will White 
mailto:william.wh...@rgsenergy.com>> wrote:
Wrenches,

Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass we’re 
having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array of 
different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, 
disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in attics, or only 
disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies between inspectors.

We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be back 
fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway.

It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.

Thanks,
Will

Will White
Operations Manager - New England
RGS Energy


64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980

RGSEnergy.com<http://www.rgsenergy.com/> | 
william.wh...@rgsenergy.com<mailto:william.wh...@rgsenergy.com>







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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[Phil Forest]

Will,
No problems with inspectors for us in MA, regarding rapid shutdown, since we 
recently switched to using SolarEdge central inverters with optimizer under 
each module, for roof mounted installs. 
So far so good. They seem well made and engineered. Tip: you have to enable the 
arc fault protection when commissioning, ships disabled. 

Phil Forest
South Mountain Company

> On May 20, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Will White  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches,
>  
> Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass 
> we’re having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array 
> of different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top 
> disconnects, disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in 
> attics, or only disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies 
> between inspectors.
>  
> We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
> Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be 
> back fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway. 
>  
> It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.
>  
> Thanks,
> Will
>  
> Will White
> Operations Manager - New England
> RGS Energy
> 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
> tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980
> RGSEnergy.com | william.wh...@rgsenergy.com
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[jay peltz]

HI Will,

You can do this.

Take a standard breaker panel, install a Arc fault and run the wiring from the 
enphase like it is the grid: ie into the main lugs.
Then this will go out through the breaker in the correct fashion, and onto the 
main panel.

jay

peltz power

PS as to the code, they want it this way


On May 20, 2014, at 7:59 AM, Will White wrote:

> Wrenches,
>  
> Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass 
> we’re having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array 
> of different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top 
> disconnects, disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in 
> attics, or only disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies 
> between inspectors.
>  
> We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
> Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be 
> back fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway. 
>  
> It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass.
>  
> Thanks,
> Will
>  
> Will White
> Operations Manager - New England
> RGS Energy
> 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
> tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980
> RGSEnergy.com | william.wh...@rgsenergy.com
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> ___
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[RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC

[Will White]

Wrenches,

Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC?  In Mass we're 
having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array of 
different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, 
disconnects on the side of a house 20' up, disconnects in attics, or only 
disconnects that can be activated on the ground.  It varies between inspectors.

We're also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on 
Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be back 
fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway.

It's getting very difficult to install in Mass.

Thanks,
Will

Will White
Operations Manager - New England
RGS Energy


64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602
tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980

RGSEnergy.com | 
william.wh...@rgsenergy.com







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[RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC documents

[Michael Welch]

If you have any questions or comments, please respond to me off list.

Received this from John Wiles. You may respond to him at .

I have put the documents he enclosed on the Wrench ftp site, individually and 
zipped together. You can find them here:

ftp://ftp.re-wrenches.org/pub/

Dear members of the PV Industry Forum (Chair-Ward Bower):

I have attached the first draft of 40 proposals that have been developed for 
articles 690 and 705 as well as a couple for other articles for the 2014 NEC.

They have originated from many sources and some are from proposals rejected for 
the 2011 NEC.

Track changes in future drafts by looking at the file dates.

Feel free to mark up and comment.  Don't forget the substantiations.   Submit 
new proposals to me.  Please use the 2011 NEC Handbook as a reference. I'll 
circulate responses and updates about every 4-6 weeks.  Grammatical suggestions 
may or may not be adopted.

The proposals will be put through the NEC Style Manual "wringer" at a later 
date.

Final submission to NFPA will be in late Oct to meet NEC 2014 deadlines.

Other interested parties may follow these drafts on the WWW.SOLARABCS.ORG web 
site.
  

Michael Welch
Sr. Editor
 Home Power magazine
 www.homepower.com


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