Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-25 Thread Tump 
Cells, even in a string /buss bar configuration, a cell will fail eventually, 
either a 6 volt, 12 volt or 2 volt battery Systems that are designed like this, 
w/ 2 v cells I can take the offending cell out of the system, jumper the bad 
cell, and the system will function perfectly fine at lower voltages. reset the 
LBCO settings . Look at your DC operating voltage window of your inverters.
More batteries in many strings have more possibilities of issues due to loose 
interconnects, different internal resistance, more holes to water & Spg 
readings to take and record, leads to poor maintenance. So more batteries to 
eliminate the risk total system shutdown doesn’t make it in my book, fewer 
larger cells maximizes battery investment .
> On Jul 25, 2018, at 2:32 PM, t...@wagonmaker.com wrote:
> 
> So you're willing to risk total system shutdown if a single cell fails?  It 
> just seems like a big risk even if the batteries are considered highly 
> reliable.  I always planned to minimize the risk of failure causing a power 
> outage.  A buss bar arrangement with more strings provides redundancy and 
> reduced downtime while still being very stable, more stable than an 
> interconnected series/parallel arrangement.
> 
> Tom
> 
> On 2018-07-25 00:39, Tump wrote:
>> Perhaps suggesting the correct amp Hr battery bank would eliminate the
>> _need_ for buss bar. 2 volt EX1400 1K amp hour batteries work very
>> well good warrantee. all the fusing & interconnects would be
>> eliminated. MORE AHs = less interconnects, always  the correct way to
>> go!
>>> On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan 
>>> wrote:
>>> Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in
>>> particular had #4 wire for the battery connections,
>>> so they are all getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like
>>> rewiring to a busbar with fuses will be the way to
>>> go. And although not ideal to have so many strings, this will be
>>> more cost effective than just getting a whole new
>>> battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries that have
>>> essentially never been used.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>> --
>>> Dave Tedeyan
>>> SENIOR ENGINEER
>>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
>>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
>>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
>>> www.taitem.com [1]
>>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt 
>>> wrote:
>>> Hi Christopher,
>>> I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate
>>> dimensions for the current I am expecting.
>>> I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size
>>> fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the
>>> exposed bar.
>>> Hope this helps.
>>> -Glenn
>>> FROM: RE-wrenches  ON
>>> BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer
>>> SENT: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM
>>> TO: RE-wrenches 
>>> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings
>>> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple
>>> battery string set ups?
>>> Christopher
>>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM,  wrote:
>>> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a
>>> buss bar setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences
>>> between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well.
>>> In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can
>>> really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be
>>> offline.  Running each string to a positive and negative common buss
>>> bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the
>>> entire storage and the system can continue operating.  Also, it
>>> means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual
>>> series pairs not the entire interconnected bank.
>>> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common
>>> buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.
>>> That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but
>>> for longevity and stability it is the best bet.
>>> Tom
>>> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
>>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed
>>> very
>>> poorly.
>>> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries
>>> wired
>>> into
>>> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they
>>> already
>>> have the
>>> equipment,

Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-25 Thread Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
It is extremely rare that a 2V cell like Trump is refering fails causing
loss of power to the home. There is often plenty of warning that an
informed offgrid owner would have that something is wrong. The last point
is the inverter and charge controllers have enough range that they can
operate the system with a missing 2V battery until one is obtained if that
happened. 

2V systems are much more reliable in my experience than strings of 6V
batteries.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 08:32:15 -1000, t...@wagonmaker.com wrote:
> So you're willing to risk total system shutdown if a single cell fails? 

> It just seems like a big risk even if the batteries are considered 
> highly reliable.  I always planned to minimize the risk of failure 
> causing a power outage.  A buss bar arrangement with more strings 
> provides redundancy and reduced downtime while still being very stable, 
> more stable than an interconnected series/parallel arrangement.
> 
> Tom
> 
> On 2018-07-25 00:39, Tump wrote:
>> Perhaps suggesting the correct amp Hr battery bank would eliminate the
>> _need_ for buss bar. 2 volt EX1400 1K amp hour batteries work very
>> well good warrantee. all the fusing & interconnects would be
>> eliminated. MORE AHs = less interconnects, always  the correct way to
>> go!
>> 
>>> On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in
>>> particular had #4 wire for the battery connections,
>>> so they are all getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like
>>> rewiring to a busbar with fuses will be the way to
>>> go. And although not ideal to have so many strings, this will be
>>> more cost effective than just getting a whole new
>>> battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries that have
>>> essentially never been used.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> Dave Tedeyan
>>> 
>>> SENIOR ENGINEER
>>> 
>>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
>>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
>>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
>>> www.taitem.com [1]
>>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Christopher,
>>> 
>>> I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate
>>> dimensions for the current I am expecting.
>>> 
>>> I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size
>>> fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the
>>> exposed bar.
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps.
>>> 
>>> -Glenn
>>> 
>>> FROM: RE-wrenches  ON
>>> BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer
>>> SENT: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM
>>> TO: RE-wrenches 
>>> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings
>>> 
>>> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple
>>> battery string set ups?
>>> 
>>> Christopher
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM,  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a
>>> buss bar setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences
>>> between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well.
>>> In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can
>>> really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be
>>> offline.  Running each string to a positive and negative common buss
>>> bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the
>>> entire storage and the system can continue operating.  Also, it
>>> means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual
>>> series pairs not the entire interconnected bank.
>>> 
>>> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common
>>> buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.
>>> That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but
>>> for longevity and stability it is the best bet.
>>> 
>>> Tom
>>> 
>>> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>>> 
>>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
>>> 
>>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed
>>> very
>>> poorly.
>>> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries
>>> wired

Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-25 Thread Ray 

That's true for 48 v systems but not 24v.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 7/25/18 12:44 PM, Matt Partymiller wrote:

Most systems will operate down 2 volts without a problem.  Warrants
reconfiguring but often the homeowner won't even notice for a few days.
In the past month I have had Outback and Sunny Island customers running
down a cell.   Sunny Island is reconfigurable to manage the situation
better.

Removing a single cell is losing less stored capacity than removing an
entire string.

Matt


On Wed, July 25, 2018 2:32 pm, t...@wagonmaker.com wrote:

So you're willing to risk total system shutdown if a single cell fails?
It just seems like a big risk even if the batteries are considered
highly reliable.  I always planned to minimize the risk of failure causing
a power outage.  A buss bar arrangement with more strings provides
redundancy and reduced downtime while still being very stable, more stable
than an interconnected series/parallel arrangement.

Tom


On 2018-07-25 00:39, Tump wrote:


Perhaps suggesting the correct amp Hr battery bank would eliminate the
_need_ for buss bar. 2 volt EX1400 1K amp hour batteries work very
well good warrantee. all the fusing & interconnects would be eliminated.
MORE AHs = less interconnects, always  the correct way to
go!


On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan 
wrote:


Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in
particular had #4 wire for the battery connections, so they are all
getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like rewiring to a busbar
with fuses will be the way to go. And although not ideal to have so
many strings, this will be more cost effective than just getting a
whole new battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries
that have essentially never been used.

Cheers,
Dave


--


Dave Tedeyan


SENIOR ENGINEER


TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
www.taitem.com [1] On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt

wrote:


Hi Christopher,


I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate
dimensions for the current I am expecting.

I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size
fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the exposed
bar.

Hope this helps.


-Glenn


FROM: RE-wrenches  ON
BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer
SENT: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM
TO: RE-wrenches 
SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings


What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple
battery string set ups?

Christopher


On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM,  wrote:


Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a
buss bar setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences between
batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup
like the existing one the resistance differences can really add up and
if one battery fails the entire system will be offline.  Running each
string to a positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove
individual strings without disrupting the entire storage and the
system can continue operating.  Also, it means the only resistance
issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the entire
interconnected bank.

I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common
buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.
That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but
for longevity and stability it is the best bet.

Tom


On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:


Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...


I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed
very poorly. They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM
batteries wired into 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but
since they already have the equipment, are there any safety issues by
re-using this equipment? It
is for a grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most
of the time. I assume that the batteries will not last particularly
long, but is there any harm in using them and then just getting new
batteries once they fail?

Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
Cheers,
Dave


--


Dave Tedeyan


SENIOR ENGINEER


TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
www.taitem.com [1] [1]

Links:
--
[1] http://www.taitem.com/
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-25 Thread Matt Partymiller 
Most systems will operate down 2 volts without a problem.  Warrants
reconfiguring but often the homeowner won't even notice for a few days. 
In the past month I have had Outback and Sunny Island customers running
down a cell.   Sunny Island is reconfigurable to manage the situation
better.

Removing a single cell is losing less stored capacity than removing an
entire string.

Matt


On Wed, July 25, 2018 2:32 pm, t...@wagonmaker.com wrote:
> So you're willing to risk total system shutdown if a single cell fails?
> It just seems like a big risk even if the batteries are considered
> highly reliable.  I always planned to minimize the risk of failure causing
> a power outage.  A buss bar arrangement with more strings provides
> redundancy and reduced downtime while still being very stable, more stable
> than an interconnected series/parallel arrangement.
>
> Tom
>
>
> On 2018-07-25 00:39, Tump wrote:
>
>> Perhaps suggesting the correct amp Hr battery bank would eliminate the
>> _need_ for buss bar. 2 volt EX1400 1K amp hour batteries work very
>> well good warrantee. all the fusing & interconnects would be eliminated.
>> MORE AHs = less interconnects, always  the correct way to
>> go!
>>
>>> On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in
>>> particular had #4 wire for the battery connections, so they are all
>>> getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like rewiring to a busbar
>>> with fuses will be the way to go. And although not ideal to have so
>>> many strings, this will be more cost effective than just getting a
>>> whole new battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries
>>> that have essentially never been used.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Dave Tedeyan
>>>
>>>
>>> SENIOR ENGINEER
>>>
>>>
>>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
>>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
>>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
>>> www.taitem.com [1] On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt
>>> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi Christopher,
>>>
>>>
>>> I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate
>>> dimensions for the current I am expecting.
>>>
>>> I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size
>>> fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the exposed
>>> bar.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Glenn
>>>
>>>
>>> FROM: RE-wrenches  ON
>>> BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer
>>> SENT: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM
>>> TO: RE-wrenches 
>>> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings
>>>
>>>
>>> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple
>>> battery string set ups?
>>>
>>> Christopher
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM,  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a
>>> buss bar setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences between
>>> batteries but resistance difference between cells as well. In a setup
>>> like the existing one the resistance differences can really add up and
>>> if one battery fails the entire system will be offline.  Running each
>>> string to a positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove
>>> individual strings without disrupting the entire storage and the
>>> system can continue operating.  Also, it means the only resistance
>>> issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the entire
>>> interconnected bank.
>>>
>>> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common
>>> buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.
>>> That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but
>>> for longevity and stability it is the best bet.
>>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
>>>
>>>
>>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed
>>> very poorly. They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM
>>> batteries wired into 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but
>>> since they already ha

Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-25 Thread tom 
So you're willing to risk total system shutdown if a single cell fails?  
It just seems like a big risk even if the batteries are considered 
highly reliable.  I always planned to minimize the risk of failure 
causing a power outage.  A buss bar arrangement with more strings 
provides redundancy and reduced downtime while still being very stable, 
more stable than an interconnected series/parallel arrangement.


Tom

On 2018-07-25 00:39, Tump wrote:

Perhaps suggesting the correct amp Hr battery bank would eliminate the
_need_ for buss bar. 2 volt EX1400 1K amp hour batteries work very
well good warrantee. all the fusing & interconnects would be
eliminated. MORE AHs = less interconnects, always  the correct way to
go!


On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan 
wrote:

Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in
particular had #4 wire for the battery connections,
so they are all getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like
rewiring to a busbar with fuses will be the way to
go. And although not ideal to have so many strings, this will be
more cost effective than just getting a whole new
battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries that have
essentially never been used.

Cheers,
Dave

--

Dave Tedeyan

SENIOR ENGINEER

TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
www.taitem.com [1]
On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt 
wrote:

Hi Christopher,

I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate
dimensions for the current I am expecting.

I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size
fasteners and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the
exposed bar.

Hope this helps.

-Glenn

FROM: RE-wrenches  ON
BEHALF OF Chris Schaefer
SENT: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM
TO: RE-wrenches 
SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple
battery string set ups?

Christopher

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM,  wrote:

Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a
buss bar setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences
between batteries but resistance difference between cells as well.
In a setup like the existing one the resistance differences can
really add up and if one battery fails the entire system will be
offline.  Running each string to a positive and negative common buss
bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the
entire storage and the system can continue operating.  Also, it
means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual
series pairs not the entire interconnected bank.

I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common
buss and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.
That was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but
for longevity and stability it is the best bet.

Tom

On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:

Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...

I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed
very
poorly.
They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries
wired
into
5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they
already
have the
equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment?
It
is for a
grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the
time. I assume
that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any
harm in using them
and then just getting new batteries once they fail?

Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
Cheers,
Dave

--

Dave Tedeyan

SENIOR ENGINEER

TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
www.taitem.com [1] [1]

Links:
--
[1] http://www.taitem.com/
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 [8]
Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870
5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
www.solarandwindfx.com [8] ~ E-mail: _chris@solarandwindfx.com_

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-25 Thread Darryl Thayer 
Hello, I was called to repair a system.  24 volt 8 strings of Group 31 AGM
batteries.  I had not self-destructed yet.  For the repair, I  insisted on
the strings being on individual breakers of 20 amps on equal length #12
wire to balance the charging.  This is a battery backup system.  I
recommended replacement of the batteries and a complete rebuild and that I
felt the system was unsafe.  That was 8 years ago, no problems yet with the
system I am hoping the next repair happens before disaster.

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:56 AM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
>
> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very
> poorly.
> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired into
> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already have
> the
> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is
> for a
> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the time.
> I assume
> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any harm
> in using them
> and then just getting new batteries once they fail?
>
> Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
>
> *--*
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
> *Senior Engineer*
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
> www.taitem.com
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-25 Thread Tump 
Perhaps suggesting the correct amp Hr battery bank would eliminate the need for 
buss bar. 2 volt EX1400 1K amp hour batteries work very well good warrantee. 
all the fusing & interconnects would be eliminated. MORE AHs = less 
interconnects, always  the correct way to go!
> On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
> 
> Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in particular had #4 
> wire for the battery connections, 
> so they are all getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like rewiring to a 
> busbar with fuses will be the way to 
> go. And although not ideal to have so many strings, this will be more cost 
> effective than just getting a whole new 
> battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries that have 
> essentially never been used.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Dave Tedeyan
> Senior Engineer
> 
> Taitem Engineering, PC
> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 <>
> www.taitem.com <http://www.taitem.com/>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt  <mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com>> wrote:
> Hi Christopher,
> 
>  
> 
> I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate dimensions 
> for the current I am expecting.
> 
> I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size fasteners and 
> use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the exposed bar.
> 
>  
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> -Glenn
> 
>  
> 
> From: RE-wrenches  <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> On Behalf Of Chris 
> Schaefer
> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM
> To: RE-wrenches  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings
> 
>  
> 
> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery string 
> set ups?
> 
>  
> 
> Christopher
> 
>  
> 
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM,  <mailto:t...@wagonmaker.com>> wrote:
> 
> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss bar 
> setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries but 
> resistance difference between cells as well.  In a setup like the existing 
> one the resistance differences can really add up and if one battery fails the 
> entire system will be offline.  Running each string to a positive and 
> negative common buss bar means you can remove individual strings without 
> disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue operating.  Also, 
> it means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual series 
> pairs not the entire interconnected bank.
> 
> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and it 
> was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.  That was years ago 
> and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and stability 
> it is the best bet.
> 
> Tom
> 
> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
> 
> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
> 
> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very
> poorly.
> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired
> into
> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already
> have the
> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It
> is for a
> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the
> time. I assume
> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any
> harm in using them
> and then just getting new batteries once they fail?
> 
> Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
> Cheers,
> Dave
> 
> --
> 
> Dave Tedeyan
> 
> SENIOR ENGINEER
> 
> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
> www.taitem.com <http://www.taitem.com/> [1]
> 
> Links:
> --
> [1] http://www.taitem.com/ <http://www.taitem.com/>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-24 Thread RE Ellison 
Number 4 wire is definitely a problem if it’s anywhere near normal battery 
voltage

And if the batteries have essentially never been used you gotta wonder if 
they’re going to be any good anyway?

Or did I miss something ?

Bob Ellison



> On Jul 24, 2018, at 9:40 AM, Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
> 
> Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in particular had #4 
> wire for the battery connections, 
> so they are all getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like rewiring to a 
> busbar with fuses will be the way to 
> go. And although not ideal to have so many strings, this will be more cost 
> effective than just getting a whole new 
> battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries that have 
> essentially never been used.
> 
> Cheers,
> Dave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Dave Tedeyan
> Senior Engineer
> 
> Taitem Engineering, PC
> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
> www.taitem.com
> 
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt  wrote:
>> Hi Christopher,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate dimensions 
>> for the current I am expecting.
>> 
>> I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size fasteners 
>> and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the exposed bar.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Hope this helps.
>> 
>> -Glenn
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
>> Chris Schaefer
>> Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM
>> To: RE-wrenches 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery 
>> string set ups?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Christopher
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM,  wrote:
>> 
>> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss bar 
>> setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries but 
>> resistance difference between cells as well.  In a setup like the existing 
>> one the resistance differences can really add up and if one battery fails 
>> the entire system will be offline.  Running each string to a positive and 
>> negative common buss bar means you can remove individual strings without 
>> disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue operating.  Also, 
>> it means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual 
>> series pairs not the entire interconnected bank.
>> 
>> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and 
>> it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.  That was years 
>> ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and 
>> stability it is the best bet.
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
>> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>> 
>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
>> 
>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very
>> poorly.
>> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired
>> into
>> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already
>> have the
>> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It
>> is for a
>> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the
>> time. I assume
>> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any
>> harm in using them
>> and then just getting new batteries once they fail?
>> 
>> Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Dave Tedeyan
>> 
>> SENIOR ENGINEER
>> 
>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
>> www.taitem.com [1]
>> 
>> Links:
>> --
>> [1] http://www.taitem.com/
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-24 Thread Dave Tedeyan 
Thank you all for the ideas and suggestions. This person in particular had
#4 wire for the battery connections,
so they are all getting replaced with anyway. So it seems like rewiring to
a busbar with fuses will be the way to
go. And although not ideal to have so many strings, this will be more cost
effective than just getting a whole new
battery bank right off the bat when they have 10 batteries that have
essentially never been used.

Cheers,
Dave




*--*


*Dave Tedeyan*
*Senior Engineer*

*Taitem Engineering, PC*
10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
www.taitem.com

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:50 PM, Glenn Burt  wrote:

> Hi Christopher,
>
>
>
> I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate dimensions
> for the current I am expecting.
>
> I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size fasteners
> and use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the exposed bar.
>
>
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> -Glenn
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
> Behalf Of *Chris Schaefer
> *Sent:* Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches 
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings
>
>
>
> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery
> string set ups?
>
>
>
> Christopher
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM,  wrote:
>
> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss
> bar setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries
> but resistance difference between cells as well.  In a setup like the
> existing one the resistance differences can really add up and if one
> battery fails the entire system will be offline.  Running each string to a
> positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove individual
> strings without disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue
> operating.  Also, it means the only resistance issues of substance are
> within individual series pairs not the entire interconnected bank.
>
> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and
> it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.  That was years
> ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and
> stability it is the best bet.
>
> Tom
>
> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>
> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
>
> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very
> poorly.
> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired
> into
> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already
> have the
> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It
> is for a
> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the
> time. I assume
> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any
> harm in using them
> and then just getting new batteries once they fail?
>
> Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> --
>
> Dave Tedeyan
>
> SENIOR ENGINEER
>
> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
> www.taitem.com [1]
>
> Links:
> --
> [1] http://www.taitem.com/
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
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>
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>
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>
> --
>
> Chris Schaefer’s
> <http://www.solarandwindfx.com>
>
> *Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
> *5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424www.solarandwindfx.com
> <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> ~ E-mail: **ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> *
>
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said,
> "democracy" will ceas

Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-23 Thread Glenn Burt 
Hi Christopher,

 

I buy my copper buss material from McMaster Carr in appropriate dimensions for 
the current I am expecting.

I then cut it to the lengths I need, drill for appropriate size fasteners and 
use 2 layers of heat-shrink tubing to protect the exposed bar.

 

Hope this helps.

-Glenn

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Chris Schaefer
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

 

What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery string 
set ups?

 

Christopher

 

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM, mailto:t...@wagonmaker.com> > wrote:

Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss bar 
setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries but 
resistance difference between cells as well.  In a setup like the existing one 
the resistance differences can really add up and if one battery fails the 
entire system will be offline.  Running each string to a positive and negative 
common buss bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the 
entire storage and the system can continue operating.  Also, it means the only 
resistance issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the 
entire interconnected bank.

I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and it 
was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.  That was years ago 
and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and stability it 
is the best bet.

Tom

On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:

Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...

I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very
poorly.
They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired
into
5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already
have the
equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It
is for a
grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the
time. I assume
that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any
harm in using them
and then just getting new batteries once they fail?

Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
Cheers,
Dave

--

Dave Tedeyan

SENIOR ENGINEER

TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
www.taitem.com <http://www.taitem.com>  [1]

Links:
--
[1] http://www.taitem.com/
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Chris Schaefer’s
 <http://www.solarandwindfx.com> 
Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 
5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
www.solarandwindfx.com <http://www.solarandwindfx.com>  ~ E-mail: 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-23 Thread William Miller 
Storm.  
https://stormpowercomponents.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIoa6cg5O23AIVGMRkCh2CFwYIEAAYASAAEgJsDfD_BwE



> On Jul 23, 2018, at 11:28 AM, Chris Schaefer  wrote:
> 
> What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery string 
> set ups?
> 
> Christopher
> 
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM,  wrote:
>> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss bar 
>> setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries but 
>> resistance difference between cells as well.  In a setup like the existing 
>> one the resistance differences can really add up and if one battery fails 
>> the entire system will be offline.  Running each string to a positive and 
>> negative common buss bar means you can remove individual strings without 
>> disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue operating.  Also, 
>> it means the only resistance issues of substance are within individual 
>> series pairs not the entire interconnected bank.
>> 
>> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and 
>> it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.  That was years 
>> ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and 
>> stability it is the best bet.
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
>>> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
>>> 
>>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very
>>> poorly.
>>> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired
>>> into
>>> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already
>>> have the
>>> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It
>>> is for a
>>> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the
>>> time. I assume
>>> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any
>>> harm in using them
>>> and then just getting new batteries once they fail?
>>> 
>>> Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> Dave Tedeyan
>>> 
>>> SENIOR ENGINEER
>>> 
>>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
>>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
>>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
>>> www.taitem.com [1]
>>> 
>>> Links:
>>> --
>>> [1] http://www.taitem.com/
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>> 
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>>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Chris Schaefer’s
> 
> Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 
> 5115 South Hill Road ~ Canandaigua New York 14424
> www.solarandwindfx.com ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
> 
> 
> 
> Thomas Jefferson, the author of our great Constitution, once said, 
> "democracy" will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing 
> to work and give to those who would not."
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-23 Thread Tom at wagonmaker 
This was 22 years ago and I got my buss bars from a battery distributor who did 
large backup installations for telco systems.   He was horrified that we in the 
business were paralleling series strings together in a daisy chain.  Said it 
was the best way to give batteries an early death.  I had a source but last 
time I posted it I was told it was no longer in business.  But I would think 
anyone who installs systems for large battery backups, either for wind systems 
using containers full of batteries or telco backup power, would have access to 
a good source.  I preferred tinned copper bars.

Using buss bars allows for creating banks of lots of batteries which allows for 
redundancy.  I’ve never understood why you would want to put all your eggs in 
one or two baskets, so to speak, by paralleling two series strings of large 
batteries.  One cell in one battery failing kills half the storage right off 
the bat and the system has to be taken offline just to remove the defective 
string.  With a buss bar there is no interruption of service, batteries can be 
swapped out easily while the system hums along.  My AGMs were solid for years 
and very well balanced.

Tom 

From: Chris Schaefer 
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 8:28 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery string 
set ups? 

Christopher

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM,  wrote:

  Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss bar 
setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries but 
resistance difference between cells as well.  In a setup like the existing one 
the resistance differences can really add up and if one battery fails the 
entire system will be offline.  Running each string to a positive and negative 
common buss bar means you can remove individual strings without disrupting the 
entire storage and the system can continue operating.  Also, it means the only 
resistance issues of substance are within individual series pairs not the 
entire interconnected bank.

  I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and it 
was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.  That was years ago 
and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and stability it 
is the best bet.

  Tom

  On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:

Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...

I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very
poorly.
They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired
into
5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already
have the
equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It
is for a
grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the
time. I assume
that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any
harm in using them
and then just getting new batteries once they fail?

Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
Cheers,
Dave

--

Dave Tedeyan

SENIOR ENGINEER

TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
www.taitem.com [1]

Links:
--
[1] http://www.taitem.com/
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-23 Thread Chris Schaefer 
What source are you all using for buss bars for these multiple battery
string set ups?

Christopher

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 2:16 PM,  wrote:

> Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss
> bar setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences between batteries
> but resistance difference between cells as well.  In a setup like the
> existing one the resistance differences can really add up and if one
> battery fails the entire system will be offline.  Running each string to a
> positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove individual
> strings without disrupting the entire storage and the system can continue
> operating.  Also, it means the only resistance issues of substance are
> within individual series pairs not the entire interconnected bank.
>
> I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss and
> it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.  That was years
> ago and now it would require fusing each string but for longevity and
> stability it is the best bet.
>
> Tom
>
> On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:
>
>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
>>
>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very
>> poorly.
>> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired
>> into
>> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already
>> have the
>> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It
>> is for a
>> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the
>> time. I assume
>> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any
>> harm in using them
>> and then just getting new batteries once they fail?
>>
>> Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>>
>> --
>>
>> Dave Tedeyan
>>
>> SENIOR ENGINEER
>>
>> TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
>> www.taitem.com [1]
>>
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>> --
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 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-23 Thread tom 
Separate out the individual series strings and run each string to a buss 
bar setup.  Remember it isn't just resistance differences between 
batteries but resistance difference between cells as well.  In a setup 
like the existing one the resistance differences can really add up and 
if one battery fails the entire system will be offline.  Running each 
string to a positive and negative common buss bar means you can remove 
individual strings without disrupting the entire storage and the system 
can continue operating.  Also, it means the only resistance issues of 
substance are within individual series pairs not the entire 
interconnected bank.


I ran 10 series pairs of 12v AGM batteries, each pair to a common buss 
and it was the longest lasting, most stable battery bank I had.  That 
was years ago and now it would require fusing each string but for 
longevity and stability it is the best bet.


Tom

On 2018-07-23 03:56, Dave Tedeyan wrote:

Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...

I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very
poorly.
They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired
into
5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already
have the
equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It
is for a
grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the
time. I assume
that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any
harm in using them
and then just getting new batteries once they fail?

Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
Cheers,
Dave

--

Dave Tedeyan

SENIOR ENGINEER

TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC
10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
www.taitem.com [1]

Links:
--
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-23 Thread Ray 
I don't think its worth all that rewiring now to preserve an imperfect 
battery design that's probably only going to last a few more years 
anyway.  Just use those batteries up, and come in with a new single or 
double string of larger batteries.


I know all of us wrenches would like to see amp circulation between 
strings with some scientific accuracy, but is that in the customer's 
best interest?


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 7/23/18 10:33 AM, offgridso...@sti.net wrote:


There will be troubleshooting with this design. Probably easier to use 
it up and redesign. If my name was on the inheritance,


I would do it now or at the minimum fuse the strings.

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:26:32 -0400, Chris Schaefer 
 wrote:


And it's not a bad idea to add a shunt in each string for trouble 
shooting down the road.

Christopher

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Steve Higgins > wrote:


I would at least rewire them like this...
image.png
Remember all the parallel strings take offs must be the same
size/length, otherwise you are going to exacerbate imbalance issues.


Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t+1.902.597.4020 m +1.206.790.5840
f+1.902.597.8447 est...@surrette.com 







CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended
only for the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary
and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review, distribution
or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon this
information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error,
please contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and
all copies.


On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 7:24 AM Jerry Shafer
mailto:jerrysgarag...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Dave
 Its a good idea to think of batteries the same way you do PV
Modules. Any time you have more then two strings they get
individual fuse protection, this is also good for diagnoses
purpuses too.
The current installation has no protection, safety and l
would change it.
As far as operation goes it works but thats not a exceptable
reason to leave it that way is.
Jerry

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:56 AM Dave Tedeyan
mailto:dtede...@taitem.com>> wrote:

Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and
installed very poorly.
They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM
batteries wired into
5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since
they already have the
equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this
equipment? It is for a
grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float
most of the time. I assume
that the batteries will not last particularly long, but
is there any harm in using them
and then just getting new batteries once they fail?
Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
Cheers,
Dave

*--*
**
*Dave Tedeyan
*
*Senior Engineer*
*Taitem Engineering, PC*
10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
www.taitem.com 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-23 Thread offgridsolar 


There will be troubleshooting with this design. Probably easier to use
it up and redesign. If my name was on the inheritance, 

I would do it now
or at the minimum fuse the strings.  

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:26:32 -0400,
Chris Schaefer  wrote:  And it's not a bad idea to add a shunt in each
string for trouble shooting down the road.   Christopher  
 On Mon, Jul 23,
2018 at 11:24 AM, Steve Higgins  wrote:
  I would at least rewire them like
this...Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager  t +1.902.597.4020 m
+1.206.790.5840 f +1.902.597.8447 e st...@surrette.com [3]

-
 CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted
herein is intended only for the addressee and may contain confidential,
proprietary and/or privileged material. Any unauthorized review,
distribution or other use of or the taking of any action in reliance upon
this information is prohibited. If you receive this email in error, please
contact the sender and delete or destroy this message and all copies.

-

  On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 7:24 AM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:  Dave  Its a good idea to think of batteries the same way you do PV
Modules. Any time you have more then two strings they get individual fuse
protection, this is also good for diagnoses purpuses too. The current
installation has no protection, safety and l would change it. As far as
operation goes it works but thats not a exceptable reason to leave it that
way is.  Jerry
  On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:56 AM Dave Tedeyan  wrote: 
Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...   I may be fixing up
a system that was both designed and installed very poorly. They have a 24V
Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired into 5 parallel
strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already have the 
equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is
for a  grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the
time. I assume  that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is
there any harm in using them and then just getting new batteries once they
fail?   Stringing is shown in the attached picture. Cheers,  Dave 

--   Dave Tedeyan
 SENIOR ENGINEER   TAITEM ENGINEERING, PC 10 Verizon
Lane, Lansing, NY 14882 Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6 www.taitem.com [11]   
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willing to work and give to those who would not." 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-23 Thread Chris Schaefer 
And it's not a bad idea to add a shunt in each string for trouble shooting
down the road.

Christopher

On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:24 AM, Steve Higgins  wrote:

> I would at least rewire them like this...
>
> [image: image.png]
> Remember all the parallel strings take offs must be the same size/length,
> otherwise you are going to exacerbate imbalance issues.
>
>
>
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
> Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
> t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
> f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> CONFIDENTIALITY: The information transmitted herein is intended only for
> the addressee and may contain confidential, proprietary and/or privileged
> material. Any unauthorized review, distribution or other use of or the
> taking of any action in reliance upon this information is prohibited. If
> you receive this email in error, please contact the sender and delete or
> destroy this message and all copies.
> --
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 7:24 AM Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
>> Dave
>>  Its a good idea to think of batteries the same way you do PV Modules.
>> Any time you have more then two strings they get individual fuse
>> protection, this is also good for diagnoses purpuses too.
>> The current installation has no protection, safety and l would change it.
>> As far as operation goes it works but thats not a exceptable reason to
>> leave it that way is.
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:56 AM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
>>
>>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
>>>
>>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very
>>> poorly.
>>> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired
>>> into
>>> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already
>>> have the
>>> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is
>>> for a
>>> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the
>>> time. I assume
>>> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any
>>> harm in using them
>>> and then just getting new batteries once they fail?
>>>
>>> Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Dave
>>>
>>>
>>> *--*
>>>
>>>
>>> *Dave Tedeyan*
>>> *Senior Engineer*
>>>
>>> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
>>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
>>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
>>> www.taitem.com
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>>
>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>>
>>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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*Tel/Fax 585-229-2083 or Cell 585-748-1870 *
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 ~ E-mail: ch...@solarandwindfx.com
*


Thomas Jefferson,

Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-23 Thread Steve Higgins 
I would at least rewire them like this...

[image: image.png]
Remember all the parallel strings take offs must be the same size/length,
otherwise you are going to exacerbate imbalance issues.



 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
f +1.902.597.8447  e st...@surrette.com
 
 





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--


On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 7:24 AM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Dave
>  Its a good idea to think of batteries the same way you do PV Modules. Any
> time you have more then two strings they get individual fuse protection,
> this is also good for diagnoses purpuses too.
> The current installation has no protection, safety and l would change it.
> As far as operation goes it works but thats not a exceptable reason to
> leave it that way is.
> Jerry
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:56 AM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:
>
>> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
>>
>> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very
>> poorly.
>> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired
>> into
>> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already
>> have the
>> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is
>> for a
>> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the
>> time. I assume
>> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any harm
>> in using them
>> and then just getting new batteries once they fail?
>>
>> Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
>> Cheers,
>> Dave
>>
>>
>> *--*
>>
>>
>> *Dave Tedeyan*
>> *Senior Engineer*
>>
>> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
>> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
>> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
>> www.taitem.com
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 5 battery strings

2018-07-23 Thread Jerry Shafer 
Dave
 Its a good idea to think of batteries the same way you do PV Modules. Any
time you have more then two strings they get individual fuse protection,
this is also good for diagnoses purpuses too.
The current installation has no protection, safety and l would change it.
As far as operation goes it works but thats not a exceptable reason to
leave it that way is.
Jerry


On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:56 AM Dave Tedeyan  wrote:

> Since we are on the topic of bad battery practices...
>
> I may be fixing up a system that was both designed and installed very
> poorly.
> They have a 24V Outback VFXR inverter, and ten 12V AGM batteries wired into
> 5 parallel strings. I know that is a bad idea, but since they already have
> the
> equipment, are there any safety issues by re-using this equipment? It is
> for a
> grid tie battery backup system that will remain in float most of the time.
> I assume
> that the batteries will not last particularly long, but is there any harm
> in using them
> and then just getting new batteries once they fail?
>
> Stringing is shown in the attached picture.
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
>
> *--*
>
>
> *Dave Tedeyan*
> *Senior Engineer*
>
> *Taitem Engineering, PC*
> 10 Verizon Lane, Lansing, NY 14882
> Voice: (607) 930-3481 x6
> www.taitem.com
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