Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Dan Fink]

Jay' about 2 gallons every 40 days.

Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
NABCEP PV Associate

970.672.4342




On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 10:50 AM Jay  wrote:

> Hi Dan and Kienan
>
> I’m curious how much water you are adding monthly?
>
> Jay
> Peltz Power.
>
> On Nov 22, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>
> Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I
> was going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an
> excellent analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points.
>
> All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80%
> SOC. To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most
> standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at
> a bit above 15v and shut down.
>
> I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I
> have experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a
> nice strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a
> heavily sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate.
>
> 1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge
> controllers (outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a
> 16.5v absorb cycle, I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the
> trick here.
>
> 2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator
> and charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the
> series string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed
> back in the string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and
> generator charge again. Then re-assemble back into a 10-cell string. I've
> only had to do this a couple times.
>
> In general, I'm happy with these batteries, and happy to never have to
> deal with sulfation again, and remember I have the worst case scenario here
> with a 12v bank, undersized because of the greater DOD capability of NiFes,
> a refrigerator that surges very hard, and a magnum inverter that goes wonky
> with big surges at low voltages.
>
> I would sell Iron Edison NiFes to a client...but unless they are a special
> sort of off-grid 12v person, I'd only do 48v because of the surge issue.
>
>
> Dan Fink
> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> NABCEP PV Associate
>
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:35 AM  wrote:
>
>> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre
>> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe
>> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with
>> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd
>> run it by you folks for an update..
>> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>>
>> db
>>
>>
>> Dan Brown
>> Foxfire Energy Corp.
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> (802)-483-2564
>> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
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>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Kienan Maxfield]

Thanks Dan. You mentioned some excellent pointers.

One advantage to using a 24 or 48 V system is that you don't have as bad of 
compatibility issues. Depending on the brand (and therefore the maximum 
charging voltage and maximum voltage tolerance specifications) you can flex the 
number of cells per string. You can't really do it with a 12 V battery because 
10 cells in series is too high for a lot of equipment, and 9 cells is too low, 
but 9.5 cells would be just right for many brands. With a 24V system, you can 
use 19 cells, and with a 48V system then you can choose between 38, 39, and 40 
cells depending on the equipment you're using.

I am using an Outback Radian inverter, and the charge voltage for a 40 cell 
battery would actually void my warranty if I were to fully charge it with the 
inverter still connected, so because of my equipment, I use 38 cell strings. 
Because of this string length, I can fully charge my batteries from a generator 
through the inverter if I wanted, but because I have finally added enough PV, I 
never waste the fuel to do it. I have heard that the XW inverters can actually 
handle the full 40 cell voltage so if you're doing your design around Ni-Fe 
batteries then that might be a better choice.



Jay,

As far as water use... my battery powers a micro-grid and my parent's 
commercial building so my water usage does not accurately reflect what a house 
may use but we could do some math and estimate it


  *   My battery is 2000 Ah @ 48V (nominal) and my PV is 18 kW, I have a 7.2 kW 
Bergey windmill on a 160' tower, and I have to run my 22 kW generator for a few 
hours perhaps 10  to 15 days per year.

  1.  I have heard that with water consumption is more closely related to PV 
size than battery size (I am not sure about that). I use roughly somewhere 
around 20 gallons per month. If you were to combine all my power sources, 
perhaps it would be fair to say that it's the equivalent of having 20 kW of PV 
so I would estimate that you will use 1 gallon of water every month per kW of 
PV.
  2.  If we go by battery size, I use a gallon per 100 Ah @ 48V. So if you have 
a 500 Ah, 48V battery then maybe it would use 5 gallons per month. If you have 
a 400 Ah, 24V battery then perhaps it might use 2 gallons per month.

  *   I think that #1 above would be more accurate. Perhaps if I were to 
calculate out my Wh/month of charging then that would be even more accurate 
but I don't think I'll do that today. These gas differently than Lead Acid 
batteries... Lead acid batteries only gas when you charge them above a certain 
voltage (the latter part of the charge) but Ni-Fe batteries gas during all 
phases of the charge cycle. That's probably a large factor of why they use more 
water than Lead Acid batteries.
  *   I would be really interested to hear what other's water usage might be. 
Dan, have you monitored your water usage at all?
  *   Dan, do you have the auto watering system? Iron Edison did a recall a 
couple years ago on their auto watering system because it could concentrate 
hydrogen so I ended up waiting a long time for mine. Now that I finally have 
it, I can just hook up the pump and watch it go. It is so much easier.

Thanks,
Kienan



Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Jay 

Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 8:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

Hi Dan and Kienan

I’m curious how much water you are adding monthly?

Jay
Peltz Power.

On Nov 22, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Dan Fink 
mailto:danbo...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I was 
going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an excellent 
analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points.

All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80% SOC. 
To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most 
standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at a 
bit above 15v and shut down.

I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I have 
experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a nice 
strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a heavily 
sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate.

1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge controllers 
(outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a 16.5v absorb cycle, 
I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the trick here.

2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator and 
charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the series 
string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed back in the 
string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and generator charge aga

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Jay]

Hi Dan and Kienan 

I’m curious how much water you are adding monthly?  

Jay
Peltz Power. 

> On Nov 22, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I 
> was going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an excellent 
> analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points.
> 
> All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80% 
> SOC. To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most 
> standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at a 
> bit above 15v and shut down.
> 
> I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I have 
> experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a nice 
> strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a heavily 
> sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate.
> 
> 1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge 
> controllers (outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a 16.5v 
> absorb cycle, I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the trick 
> here.
> 
> 2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator and 
> charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the series 
> string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed back in 
> the string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and generator charge 
> again. Then re-assemble back into a 10-cell string. I've only had to do this 
> a couple times.
> 
> In general, I'm happy with these batteries, and happy to never have to deal 
> with sulfation again, and remember I have the worst case scenario here with a 
> 12v bank, undersized because of the greater DOD capability of NiFes, a 
> refrigerator that surges very hard, and a magnum inverter that goes wonky 
> with big surges at low voltages.
> 
> I would sell Iron Edison NiFes to a client...but unless they are a special 
> sort of off-grid 12v person, I'd only do 48v because of the surge issue. 
> 
> 
> Dan Fink
> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> NABCEP PV Associate
> 
> 970.672.4342
> 
>  
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:35 AM  wrote:
>> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre 
>> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe 
>> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with 
>> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd 
>> run it by you folks for an update..
>> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>> 
>> db
>> 
>> 
>> Dan Brown
>> Foxfire Energy Corp.
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> (802)-483-2564
>> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
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>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Dan Fink]

Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I
was going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an
excellent analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points.

All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80%
SOC. To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most
standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at
a bit above 15v and shut down.

I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I have
experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a nice
strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a heavily
sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate.

1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge
controllers (outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a
16.5v absorb cycle, I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the
trick here.

2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator
and charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the
series string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed
back in the string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and
generator charge again. Then re-assemble back into a 10-cell string. I've
only had to do this a couple times.

In general, I'm happy with these batteries, and happy to never have to deal
with sulfation again, and remember I have the worst case scenario here with
a 12v bank, undersized because of the greater DOD capability of NiFes, a
refrigerator that surges very hard, and a magnum inverter that goes wonky
with big surges at low voltages.

I would sell Iron Edison NiFes to a client...but unless they are a special
sort of off-grid 12v person, I'd only do 48v because of the surge issue.


Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
NABCEP PV Associate

970.672.4342




On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:35 AM  wrote:

> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre
> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe
> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with
> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd
> run it by you folks for an update..
> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>
> db
>
>
> Dan Brown
> Foxfire Energy Corp.
> Renewable Energy Systems
> (802)-483-2564
> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Change listserver email address & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
>
> List rules & etiquette:
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>
> Check out or update participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Kienan Maxfield]

Dan,

I have been living on Ni-Fe batteries for several years now and I have somewhat 
mixed feelings. I love them but I also dislike some aspects of them. First of 
all, as everyone mentions, they have a very low round-trip Wh efficiency, and 
secondly, they do use a lot of water. Otherwise, they are quite good. Iron 
Edison is great with tech support and they have the voltage parameters figured 
out really well. I believe that there are a lot of myths out there about Ni-Fe, 
but from what I've seen and heard, if you can afford them, if you can make sure 
to have an oversized PV array, and if you have time to top them off with 
distilled water every month (never skip a month!), they are a really great 
battery.

If you do use Ni-Fe, I have a few suggestions/tips...


  *   First of all, never try hydro-caps with these batteries!!! I found mixed 
information on this one so I called them up and the owner of the Hydro-caps 
company claimed that they are compatible with Ni-Fe so I figured I'd give them 
a try. The Hydro-caps started to melt and they failed to release any of the 
pressure. This caused two of the batteries to explode. Thankfully I had two 
extra identical Ni-Fe batteries so I just switched them out as an experiment 
(and removed all the Hydro-caps) and my system is running fine.

  *   Iron-Edison sells an "auto watering system" and a compatible "water 
cart." I highly recommend this accessory, but of course, you (or the customer) 
only fill the batteries while you or the customer is carefully monitoring it. 
You never leave it going to "keep them topped off. If you have this system 
installed then watering the batteries is so easy. It's a breeze.  If you're 
filling these by hand then forget it... they would be terrible...

  *   They also sell and recommend a deionizing filter that is supposedly good 
enough for purifying the water for the battery. This would cut the cost of the 
distilled water and since Iron Edison is the one holding the warranty, I have a 
fairly good level of confidence that it won't hurt the battery. If it did end 
up hurting the battery, it wouldn't void the warranty.

  *   My batteries do get very cold (perhaps 10°F inside the electrolyte) and 
they don't seem to mind too much. Perhaps they do have a somewhat lower 
capacity.

  *   Make sure they aren't undersized or else they'll struggle with the surge 
loads.

  *   The PV array needs to be quite large. Make sure that the PV array can 
produce at least a C/6 at the nominal battery voltage, and C/5 or C/4 is better 
if the customer will be running much during the day. In other words, if you 
have a 500 Ah 48V bank you should make sure that the array is an absolute 
minimum of 4 kW (500 * 48 / 6 = 4,000). These batteries need a hard charge 
every now and then or else they start to act like they are going bad. If you 
take a battery that seems to be going bad and you give it a really good hard 
charge then they often come right back and there is nothing wrong with them.

  *   I wouldn't use these on a grid-tied system.

  *   I have always been skeptical about pre-packaged systems. Iron Edison 
seems like a good company but I still don't know if I like the pre-packaged 
idea.

  *   After taking my previous points into consideration, if the customer is 
still leaning that way and they had the budget, I wouldn't hesitate to use a 
Ni-Fe, but on the other hand, most people would weigh the factors and decide 
that it's too much up-front investment, and/or too much maintenance. Many who 
are willing to do the maintenance don't have the funds, and many who have the 
funds wouldn't be okay with the maintenance. For the first case, Lead-Acid is 
definitely the way to go, and for the second case, LiFe-PO4 is better. That 
being said there are a few people who will weigh all the factors and still 
gladly go for the Ni-Fe because if you go install a Lithium battery tomorrow, 
my Ni-Fe battery will still most likely be alive and strong when your lithium 
battery goes out.

I hope this helps a little!

Thanks,
Kienan



Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com<mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
jerrysgarage01 
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2018 8:30 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

Wrenches
I have used Iron Edison Batteries and 12 volts is tough but l have had no 
issues at 48, you can set the high side voltage enough to work well. They are a 
very thirsty battery technology but may last for ever. Round trip efficiency is 
70% at best so a larger array is required and the batteries don't like it to 
cold either.
Jerry



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Ken Schaal 
Date: 11/21/18 11:36 AM (GMT-08:00)
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

Hey alexis.
Any thoughts regarding these

Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[jay]

As we are talking about the IronEdison batteries.
I checked their site about lithium and they claim to have a BMS that will 
communicate with Outback.
I didn’t think anybody had comm with OB?
Can anyone confirm that?

jay 
Peltz power

> On Nov 21, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Ken Schaal  wrote:
> 
> Hey alexis.
> Any thoughts regarding these comments about Ni-fi batteries?
> Ur running them DC direct?
> Hope all is well. Ken
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:25 PM David Katz   wrote:
> AEE Solar sold NiFe batteries from Russia in the late 1990s.  They last a 
> long time but were hard to use with inverters.  A 12 volt pack has 10 cells. 
> Each cell reaches full charge at 1.7 volts so the pack would be at 17 volts. 
> that is 68 volts in a 48 volt pack.  inverters turn off for over-voltage 
> before that.  When they are operating the cells are at 1.2 volts.  The charge 
> efficiency is about 60% when you look at watt hours in vs. watt hours out.  
> They also use a lot of distilled water.  I had a set that required watering 
> every 3 weeks.  I did not keep up with watering once and one of the cells 
> exploded when the water level got below the plates.
> I would suggest L-ion batteries instead.
> David Katz
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Ray  > wrote:
> Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard to get 
> right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really expensive 
> to boot.  I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have replaced some 
> sets that customers were unhappy with.  They seem to work OK, only if there 
> are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized large enough.  
> Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really under size them, 
> which only exasperates the above issues.
> 
> There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely adopted 
> by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and I understand the train 
> industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging available, so 
> efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type loads with very 
> little surge.
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com 
>  wrote:
>> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre 
>> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe 
>> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with 
>> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd 
>> run it by you folks for an update..
>> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>> 
>> db
>> 
>> 
>> Dan Brown
>> Foxfire Energy Corp.
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> (802)-483-2564
>> www.Foxfire-Energy.com 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[jay]

HI Ray,

I’ll add that they use lots of water requiring lots of maintenance.
Their efficiency is between 70 and 80%.
The reason that the railroad and telecomm have used them in remote applications 
is that chemistry doesn’t care about cold or hot. 


And given that they cost (95%) almost as much as a top end Lithium battery, I’d 
go for the Lithium if someone has that kind of cash to throw around.

Jay

Peltz Power.



> On Nov 21, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Ray  wrote:
> 
> Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard to get 
> right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really expensive 
> to boot.  I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have replaced some 
> sets that customers were unhappy with.  They seem to work OK, only if there 
> are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized large enough.  
> Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really under size them, 
> which only exasperates the above issues.
> 
> There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely adopted 
> by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and I understand the train 
> industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging available, so 
> efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type loads with very 
> little surge.
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com 
>  wrote:
>> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre 
>> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe 
>> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with 
>> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd 
>> run it by you folks for an update..
>> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>> 
>> db
>> 
>> 
>> Dan Brown
>> Foxfire Energy Corp.
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> (802)-483-2564
>> www.Foxfire-Energy.com 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

IE has been good with their LFP and Schneider spread sheet data for easy
system config. I can't see Nife anymore. Gobble 
Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net [2]
text 209 813 0060

On Wed, 21 Nov 2018
10:55:56 -0700,  wrote:  Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring
about installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing
strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I
have done a few searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I
run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update.. Thanks,
and Happy Turkey Day.   db   
Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable
Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com [3]  -- 




Links:
--
[1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2]
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
[3] http://www.Foxfire-Energy.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[jerrysgarage01]

WrenchesI have used Iron Edison Batteries and 12 volts is tough but l have had 
no issues at 48, you can set the high side voltage enough to work well. They 
are a very thirsty battery technology but may last for ever. Round trip 
efficiency is 70% at best so a larger array is required and the batteries don't 
like it to cold either.Jerry Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Ken Schaal  
Date: 11/21/18  11:36 AM  (GMT-08:00) To: RE-wrenches 
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update? 
Hey alexis.Any thoughts regarding these comments about Ni-fi batteries?Ur 
running them DC direct?Hope all is well. KenOn Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:25 PM David 
Katz  wrote:
  

  
  
Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard
  to get right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they
  are really expensive to boot.  I've never sold them for these
  reasons, but I have replaced some sets that customers were unhappy
  with.  They seem to work OK, only if there are no large surge
  loads, and the battery and array are sized large enough. 
  Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really under size
  them, which only exasperates the above issues.
There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been
  widely adopted by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and
  I understand the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap
  on grid charging available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B)
  they have telecomm type loads with very little surge.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 11/21/18 10:55 AM,
  d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:


  
  
Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about
  installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall
  hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall
  the specifics. I have done a few searches with mixed results..
  And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd
  run it by you folks for an update..
 Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.


db




  Dan Brown
  Foxfire Energy Corp.
  Renewable Energy Systems
  (802)-483-2564
  www.Foxfire-Energy.com

  
  
  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Darryl Thayer]

I concur with the other writers. They have low charge efficiency, Although
that is not a killer.  the voltages are as David says, but the discharge
drops below 1.2 volts with surges.  I have heard of a battery fire with one
set, perhaps it was due to low water as David suggest.  They seem to need a
lot of water,  The only special value is they do not freeze.  However the
output current drops when cold.

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 12:35 PM  wrote:

> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre
> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe
> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with
> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd
> run it by you folks for an update..
> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>
> db
>
>
> Dan Brown
> Foxfire Energy Corp.
> Renewable Energy Systems
> (802)-483-2564
> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Ken Schaal]

Hey alexis.
Any thoughts regarding these comments about Ni-fi batteries?
Ur running them DC direct?
Hope all is well. Ken

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 2:25 PM David Katz  AEE Solar sold NiFe batteries from Russia in the late 1990s.  They last a
> long time but were hard to use with inverters.  A 12 volt pack has 10
> cells. Each cell reaches full charge at 1.7 volts so the pack would be at
> 17 volts. that is 68 volts in a 48 volt pack.  inverters turn off for
> over-voltage before that.  When they are operating the cells are at 1.2
> volts.  The charge efficiency is about 60% when you look at watt hours in
> vs. watt hours out.  They also use a lot of distilled water.  I had a set
> that required watering every 3 weeks.  I did not keep up with watering once
> and one of the cells exploded when the water level got below the plates.
> I would suggest L-ion batteries instead.
> David Katz
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Ray  wrote:
>
>> Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard to get
>> right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really
>> expensive to boot.  I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have
>> replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with.  They seem to work OK,
>> only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized
>> large enough.  Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really
>> under size them, which only exasperates the above issues.
>>
>> There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely
>> adopted by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and I understand
>> the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging
>> available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type
>> loads with very little surge.
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>>
>> On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:
>>
>> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre
>> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe
>> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with
>> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd
>> run it by you folks for an update..
>> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>>
>> db
>>
>>
>> Dan Brown
>> Foxfire Energy Corp.
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> (802)-483-2564
>> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
>>
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[David Katz]

AEE Solar sold NiFe batteries from Russia in the late 1990s.  They last a
long time but were hard to use with inverters.  A 12 volt pack has 10
cells. Each cell reaches full charge at 1.7 volts so the pack would be at
17 volts. that is 68 volts in a 48 volt pack.  inverters turn off for
over-voltage before that.  When they are operating the cells are at 1.2
volts.  The charge efficiency is about 60% when you look at watt hours in
vs. watt hours out.  They also use a lot of distilled water.  I had a set
that required watering every 3 weeks.  I did not keep up with watering once
and one of the cells exploded when the water level got below the plates.
I would suggest L-ion batteries instead.
David Katz

On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 10:37 AM Ray  wrote:

> Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard to get
> right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really
> expensive to boot.  I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have
> replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with.  They seem to work OK,
> only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array are sized
> large enough.  Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to really
> under size them, which only exasperates the above issues.
>
> There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely
> adopted by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and I understand
> the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging
> available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type
> loads with very little surge.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:
>
> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre
> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe
> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with
> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd
> run it by you folks for an update..
> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>
> db
>
>
> Dan Brown
> Foxfire Energy Corp.
> Renewable Energy Systems
> (802)-483-2564
> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Ray]

Charge efficiency is really low,  Charging parameters can be hard to get 
right, Voltage is not stable under heavy loads, and they are really 
expensive to boot.  I've never sold them for these reasons, but I have 
replaced some sets that customers were unhappy with.  They seem to work 
OK, only if there are no large surge loads, and the battery and array 
are sized large enough. Unfortunately because of the cost, folks seem to 
really under size them, which only exasperates the above issues.


There's good reasons this old battery chemistry has not been widely 
adopted by the solar industry.  It does have its place, and I understand 
the train industry uses it because A) they have cheap on grid charging 
available, so efficiency doesn't matter, and B) they have telecomm type 
loads with very little surge.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 11/21/18 10:55 AM, d...@foxfire-energy.com wrote:
Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre 
packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about 
Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few 
searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a 
Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update..

Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.

db


Dan Brown
Foxfire Energy Corp.
Renewable Energy Systems
(802)-483-2564
www.Foxfire-Energy.com 

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[RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[dan]

Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd run it by you folks for an update.. Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.dbDan BrownFoxfire Energy Corp.Renewable Energy Systems(802)-483-2564www.Foxfire-Energy.com
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