Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Jason Lerner]

Hi Larry,

I am not talking about doing a discharge to 90% DOD,  I was talking about doing 
a discharge to 20% DOD.  Let's say summer folk come up for 1 month a year,  and 
discharge to 20% DOD daily,   then fully recharge with a 2 hour absorb charge 
and then float until the sun goes down. This systems charge controller is set 
to auto EQ every 30 days to stir up the electrolyte,  and all loads are turned 
off when nobody is there.  Let's say there is 4 FLA golf cart batteries and 500 
watts of PV.  Four average sun hours a day.  How long would you expect these 
batteries to last?

Thanks very much,

Jason

Waldron Power and Light Co.
On Jul 13, 2012, at 9:18 AM, la...@starlightsolar.com 
la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:

 Jason,
 
 Forcing a lead acid battery to deeply discharge does not increase capacity or 
 life of the battery. It only shortens battery life and may damage the 
 battery. This is one of many battery myths. 
 
 Larry Crutcher
 Starlight Solar Power Systems
  Original Message 
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
 From: Jason Lerner wapa...@rockisland.com
 Date: Fri, July 13, 2012 7:28 am
 To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 
 Hello John,
 
 This time of year I service off grid summer cabins where people come up once 
 a year for a few weeks.  The batteries in these systems generally do not die 
 from over cycling,  but from over/under watering,  acid stratification, 
 corrosion,  and generally being ignored.  The more savvy customers I will 
 recommend they turn off the PV's when they are there to get a deep discharge 
 in.
 
 Could you recommend any thing else they could do to lengthen their battery 
 bank lifespan? These systems generally have a small PV charging capability,  
 and float charge 350 days a year. It seems ironic that these systems that 
 really never get used,  and my battery bank at home that gets used (but not 
 abused) and cycled daily, will last the same number of years.
 
 Thanks very much,
 
 Jason Lerner
 
 Waldron Power and Light Co.
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Jason Lerner]

Hello John,

Thank you for your helpful explanation.  I wonder if there should be a six 
life,  that being time.

Lets use the small summer cabin analogy that gets used for one month a year.  
Let's say the system has Four T105 -RE's,  500 watts of PV, 4 average daily sun 
hours. They do one discharge/charge cycle down to 20% DOD and then fully charge 
again the same day for a 2 hour absorb.  That would be 30 discharge cycles a 
year x 8 years = 240 discharge/charge cycles.

If one was to design and instal a proper battery based system using the 
guidelines presented in this email thread with plenty of PV for daily charging, 
 periodic EQ's, 20% or less DOD, no electrolyte on the battery tops to cause 
corrosion, never letting the plates go dry from low electrolyte level and 
having them at a cool 60º F year round would you expect this summer cabin 
system to last 4000 cycles?  In a perfect world would that be 4000 cycles ÷ 
summer cabin 30 discharge/charge cycles a year = 133 years ??

Of course I am not expecting that,  but am just trying to squeeze the longest 
life span possible out of batteries that mostly just sit.

Best,

Jason Lerner

Waldron Power and Light Co.
On Jul 13, 2012, at 10:33 AM, John DeBoever wrote:

 Wrenches,
  
 Forcing a lead acid battery to cycle for the fun of it reduces its cycle life.
  
 In a nutshell, lead acid batteries have “five lives”, each varying depending 
 their specific intrinsic technology attributes developed by the battery OEM:
 o   Cycle life
 o   Corrosion life
 o   Stratification life
 o   Shorting life
 o   And… Temperature life
  
 These lives are all inter-connected and temperature is the one that is the 
 most influent to all of them. The interesting part is that all of these “5 
 lives” are 90% of the time exacerbated by the system sizing 
 (cyclic/non-cyclic, loads, insollation, PV array, battery bank size, wiring 
 and power conditioning losses, etc.), the install, the setting points 
 commissioning, the maintenance, not to forget the load patterns (perceived 
 vs. reality dynamics and growth of the load).  Cycling for cycling does not 
 increase the battery life. Adequate cycling based on adequate full recharge 
 keep the battery in good health.
  
 John
  
 John F. DeBoever
 Global Technical  Projects Director – Renewable Energy
 Trojan Battery Company
  
 12380 Clark Street
 Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
 Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
 Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
 Skype: john.f.deboever
 Fax: +1-562-236-3239
 jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com
 www.trojanbattery.com
  
  
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
 la...@starlightsolar.com
 Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 12:18 PM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
  
 Jason,
  
 Forcing a lead acid battery to deeply discharge does not increase capacity or 
 life of the battery. It only shortens battery life and may damage the 
 battery. This is one of many battery myths. 
  
 Larry Crutcher
 Starlight Solar Power Systems
  Original Message 
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
 From: Jason Lerner wapa...@rockisland.com
 Date: Fri, July 13, 2012 7:28 am
 To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 
 Hello John,
  
 This time of year I service off grid summer cabins where people come up once 
 a year for a few weeks.  The batteries in these systems generally do not die 
 from over cycling,  but from over/under watering,  acid stratification, 
 corrosion,  and generally being ignored.  The more savvy customers I will 
 recommend they turn off the PV's when they are there to get a deep discharge 
 in.
  
 Could you recommend any thing else they could do to lengthen their battery 
 bank lifespan? These systems generally have a small PV charging capability,  
 and float charge 350 days a year. It seems ironic that these systems that 
 really never get used,  and my battery bank at home that gets used (but not 
 abused) and cycled daily, will last the same number of years.
  
 Thanks very much,
  
 Jason Lerner
  
 Waldron Power and Light Co.
  
 
 This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain 
 information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure. 
 It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was 
 intended to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you 
 are not the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use 
 of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this 
 communication in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone 
 number listed above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the 
 original and all copies of this e-mail and any attachments from all 
 locations. Thank you. ___
 List sponsored by Home Power magazine
 
 List Address: RE-wrenches

Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[R Ray Walters]

The batteries in your scenario are actually being cycled daily probably 
somewhere in the 2 to 5% range.  Looking at a chart for # of cycles vs. DOD, 
you see the most efficient use of the battery is usually from 20% to 80% DOD,  
an FLA battery in perpetual float just doesn't last as long you might think. 
Depending on the brand of golf car battery, I would give this system a maximum 
life span of 10 years.
Maintenance will eventually be the issue; sometime in the battery's life, it 
will be over charged, left for weeks under charged, or let the water go dry.
A typical scenario I've seen many times: charge controller fails because of 
lightning, small load is left on, and the battery gets fully discharged.  Since 
no one is there, it sits for weeks and becomes permanently damaged.  Scenario 2 
is similar:  a load is left on (light in a closet) fridge or pump stays on and 
malfunctions,  and the system crashes.
Scenario 3 no temp compensation, battery gets over charged in the heat, boils 
its H20 off a couple of cells, the dead cells pull the rest of the bank down in 
spiraling failure that can actually do damage to the house: acid spills, 
corrosion, and exploding cells.
I find my off grid systems that fare the best are well designed full time use 
with one or two people who are very consistent in their use, and maintenance.
I've replaced batteries every couple of years on some part time systems, 
because simple problems are not caught for weeks or months.  I have a couple of 
higher end part time systems that the owner can monitor and contact us, if for 
instance the power goes out.  This keeps it from leading to permanent damage.

Ray Walters

On Jul 14, 2012, at 8:58 AM, Jason Lerner wrote:

 Hello John,
 
 Thank you for your helpful explanation.  I wonder if there should be a six 
 life,  that being time.
 
 Lets use the small summer cabin analogy that gets used for one month a year.  
 Let's say the system has Four T105 -RE's,  500 watts of PV, 4 average daily 
 sun hours. They do one discharge/charge cycle down to 20% DOD and then fully 
 charge again the same day for a 2 hour absorb.  That would be 30 discharge 
 cycles a year x 8 years = 240 discharge/charge cycles.
 
 If one was to design and instal a proper battery based system using the 
 guidelines presented in this email thread with plenty of PV for daily 
 charging,  periodic EQ's, 20% or less DOD, no electrolyte on the battery tops 
 to cause corrosion, never letting the plates go dry from low electrolyte 
 level and having them at a cool 60º F year round would you expect this summer 
 cabin system to last 4000 cycles?  In a perfect world would that be 4000 
 cycles ÷ summer cabin 30 discharge/charge cycles a year = 133 years ??
 
 Of course I am not expecting that,  but am just trying to squeeze the longest 
 life span possible out of batteries that mostly just sit.
 
 Best,
 
 Jason Lerner
 
 Waldron Power and Light Co.
 On Jul 13, 2012, at 10:33 AM, John DeBoever wrote:
 
 Wrenches,
  
 Forcing a lead acid battery to cycle for the fun of it reduces its cycle 
 life.
  
 In a nutshell, lead acid batteries have “five lives”, each varying depending 
 their specific intrinsic technology attributes developed by the battery OEM:
 o   Cycle life
 o   Corrosion life
 o   Stratification life
 o   Shorting life
 o   And… Temperature life
  
 These lives are all inter-connected and temperature is the one that is the 
 most influent to all of them. The interesting part is that all of these “5 
 lives” are 90% of the time exacerbated by the system sizing 
 (cyclic/non-cyclic, loads, insollation, PV array, battery bank size, wiring 
 and power conditioning losses, etc.), the install, the setting points 
 commissioning, the maintenance, not to forget the load patterns (perceived 
 vs. reality dynamics and growth of the load).  Cycling for cycling does not 
 increase the battery life. Adequate cycling based on adequate full recharge 
 keep the battery in good health.
  
 John
  
 John F. DeBoever
 Global Technical  Projects Director – Renewable Energy
 Trojan Battery Company
  
 12380 Clark Street
 Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
 Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
 Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
 Skype: john.f.deboever
 Fax: +1-562-236-3239
 jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com
 www.trojanbattery.com
  
  
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
 la...@starlightsolar.com
 Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 12:18 PM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
  
 Jason,
  
 Forcing a lead acid battery to deeply discharge does not increase capacity 
 or life of the battery. It only shortens battery life and may damage the 
 battery. This is one of many battery myths. 
  
 Larry Crutcher
 Starlight Solar Power Systems
  Original Message 
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
 From: Jason Lerner wapa...@rockisland.com
 Date: Fri

Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Jason Lerner]

 (perceived 
 vs. reality dynamics and growth of the load).  Cycling for cycling does not 
 increase the battery life. Adequate cycling based on adequate full recharge 
 keep the battery in good health.
  
 John
  
 John F. DeBoever
 Global Technical  Projects Director – Renewable Energy
 Trojan Battery Company
  
 12380 Clark Street
 Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
 Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
 Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
 Skype: john.f.deboever
 Fax: +1-562-236-3239
 jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com
 www.trojanbattery.com
  
  
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
 la...@starlightsolar.com
 Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 12:18 PM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
  
 Jason,
  
 Forcing a lead acid battery to deeply discharge does not increase capacity 
 or life of the battery. It only shortens battery life and may damage the 
 battery. This is one of many battery myths. 
  
 Larry Crutcher
 Starlight Solar Power Systems
  Original Message 
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
 From: Jason Lerner wapa...@rockisland.com
 Date: Fri, July 13, 2012 7:28 am
 To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 
 Hello John,
  
 This time of year I service off grid summer cabins where people come up 
 once a year for a few weeks.  The batteries in these systems generally do 
 not die from over cycling,  but from over/under watering,  acid 
 stratification, corrosion,  and generally being ignored.  The more savvy 
 customers I will recommend they turn off the PV's when they are there to 
 get a deep discharge in.
  
 Could you recommend any thing else they could do to lengthen their battery 
 bank lifespan? These systems generally have a small PV charging capability, 
  and float charge 350 days a year. It seems ironic that these systems that 
 really never get used,  and my battery bank at home that gets used (but not 
 abused) and cycled daily, will last the same number of years.
  
 Thanks very much,
  
 Jason Lerner
  
 Waldron Power and Light Co.
  
 
 This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain 
 information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure. 
 It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was 
 intended to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or 
 you are not the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or 
 other use of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have 
 received this communication in error, please immediately advise the sender 
 at their phone number listed above, or by electronic mail, and also 
 permanently delete the original and all copies of this e-mail and any 
 attachments from all locations. Thank you. 
 ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Jason Lerner]

Hello John,

This time of year I service off grid summer cabins where people come up once a 
year for a few weeks.  The batteries in these systems generally do not die from 
over cycling,  but from over/under watering,  acid stratification, corrosion,  
and generally being ignored.  The more savvy customers I will recommend they 
turn off the PV's when they are there to get a deep discharge in.

Could you recommend any thing else they could do to lengthen their battery bank 
lifespan? These systems generally have a small PV charging capability,  and 
float charge 350 days a year. It seems ironic that these systems that really 
never get used,  and my battery bank at home that gets used (but not abused) 
and cycled daily, will last the same number of years.

Thanks very much,

Jason Lerner

Waldron Power and Light Co.

On Jul 9, 2012, at 12:53 PM, John DeBoever wrote:

 Jason, Wrenches,
  
 Thank you for your patience and positive statements on Trojan Battery 
 Company. Last week was a busy and I was away from my desk most of the time 
 with limited access to Internet.
  
 Both the Premium ”RE” versions L16RE-A and L16RE-B, and, the Signature  L16P 
  L16H are great deep-cycles lead acid batteries for solar applications. The 
 key differences between them are:
  
 ü  The grid is thicker for the Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which 
 effectively reinforces further the frame strength which results into a 
 greater corrosion resistance;
 ü  There is relatively more electrolyte in contact with the plates in the 
 Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16REB, which enhances the electrochemical reaction, 
 particularly during PSOC;
 ü  The rubber-based multi-rib geometry separator is approx. 30% thicker for 
 the Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which translates into a longer life of 
 the separator. The thicker multi-ribs geometry keeps over time the acid 
 channels open longer, promoting the flow of the electrolyte . As a result, 
 the thicker separator is reducing the risk of stratification and enhancing 
 electrochemical processing throughout the plates, resulting into longer 
 continuous performance of the battery.
 ü  In the approx. same form factor (except the height), this results into 
 more lead per Ah capacity on the L16-RE units nameplate.
  
 As a consequence, the cycling performances of the Premium “RE” is 1,600 
 cycles @ 50% DOD and 4,000 cycles @ 20% DOD. Respectively 1,200 cycles # 50% 
 DOD, and, 3,000 cycles @ 20% DOD @ 20% DOD, for the L16-P  L16-H.
  
 I hope this helps. Let me know if I can shed further light on other 
 attributes of lead acid batteries.
  
 Sunniest regards,
  
 John
  
 John F. DeBoever
 Global Technical  Projects Director – Renewable Energy
 Trojan Battery Company
  
 12380 Clark Street
 Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
 Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
 Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
 Skype: john.f.deboever
 Fax: +1-562-236-3239
 jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com
 www.trojanbattery.com
  
  
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Lerner
 Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:26 PM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
  
 I am back to using Trojan's after 12 years of trying others,  none seem to 
 last as long for the L16's.  Could anybody explain the technical differences 
 between the Trojan L16 and the L16RE-B's.  I have read all the brochures but 
 would like to understand what is going on in there instead of getting the 
 marketing of DuraGrid™, MaxGuard® XL separator and Alpha Plus.
  
 Thanks very much,
  
 Jason Lerner
  
 Waldron Power and Light and Co.
 On Jun 29, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Jonathan Hill wrote:
 
 
 Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!
 Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder
  
 Sierra Solar Systems
 563C Idaho Maryland Road
 Grass Valley, CA 95945
 Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
 tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 
 order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
 e-mail:  mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com
 world wide web:  http://www.sierrasolar.com
 
 Check out our 2 minute video at: 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk
 
 
  
 On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:
 
 
 We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16’s that we 
 installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of 
 the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16’s and also Surrette/Rolls. I’ve been 
 using those since 1985.
  
 Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B’s either L-16, or T-105. And have 
 used Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good success with another 
 set ordered.
  
 Dave
  
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest
 Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
  
 Just got talked

Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[larry]

Jason,Forcing a lead acid battery to deeply discharge does not increase capacity or life of the battery. It only shortens battery life and may damage the battery. This is one of many battery myths.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
From: Jason Lerner wapa...@rockisland.com
Date: Fri, July 13, 2012 7:28 am
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Hello John,This time of year I service off grid summer cabins where people come up once a year for a few weeks. The batteries in these systems generally do not die from over cycling, but from over/under watering, acid stratification, corrosion, and generally being ignored. The more savvy customers I will recommend they turn off the PV's when they are there to get a deep discharge in.Could you recommend any thing else they could do to lengthen their battery bank lifespan? These systems generally have a small PV charging capability, and float charge 350 days a year. It seems ironic that these systems that really never get used, and my battery bank at home that gets used (but not abused) and cycled daily, will last the same number of years.Thanks very much,Jason LernerWaldron Power and Light Co.



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[toddcory]

The more savvy customers I will recommend they turn off
 the PV's when they are there to get a deep discharge in.

um, why use up battery cycles unnecessarily like this?

todd







On Friday, July 13, 2012 7:28am, Jason Lerner wapa...@rockisland.com said:

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 Hello John,
 
 This time of year I service off grid summer cabins where people come up once a
 year for a few weeks.  The batteries in these systems generally do not die 
 from
 over cycling,  but from over/under watering,  acid stratification, corrosion, 
  and
 generally being ignored.  The more savvy customers I will recommend they turn 
 off
 the PV's when they are there to get a deep discharge in.
 
 Could you recommend any thing else they could do to lengthen their battery 
 bank
 lifespan? These systems generally have a small PV charging capability,  and 
 float
 charge 350 days a year. It seems ironic that these systems that really never 
 get
 used,  and my battery bank at home that gets used (but not abused) and cycled
 daily, will last the same number of years.
 
 Thanks very much,
 
 Jason Lerner
 
 Waldron Power and Light Co.
 
 On Jul 9, 2012, at 12:53 PM, John DeBoever wrote:
 
 Jason, Wrenches,

 Thank you for your patience and positive statements on Trojan Battery 
 Company.
 Last week was a busy and I was away from my desk most of the time with 
 limited
 access to Internet.

 Both the Premium ”RE” versions L16RE-A and L16RE-B, and, the
 Signature  L16P  L16H are great deep-cycles lead acid batteries for solar
 applications. The key differences between them are:

 ü  The grid is thicker for the Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16RE-B,
 which effectively reinforces further the frame strength which results into a
 greater corrosion resistance;
 ü  There is relatively more electrolyte in contact with the plates in the
 Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16REB, which enhances the electrochemical
 reaction, particularly during PSOC;
 ü  The rubber-based multi-rib geometry separator is approx. 30% thicker for
 the Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which translates into a longer
 life of the separator. The thicker multi-ribs geometry keeps over time the 
 acid
 channels open longer, promoting the flow of the electrolyte . As a result, 
 the
 thicker separator is reducing the risk of stratification and enhancing
 electrochemical processing throughout the plates, resulting into longer
 continuous performance of the battery.
 ü  In the approx. same form factor (except the height), this results into
 more lead per Ah capacity on the L16-RE units nameplate.

 As a consequence, the cycling performances of the Premium “RE” is
 1,600 cycles @ 50% DOD and 4,000 cycles @ 20% DOD. Respectively 1,200 cycles 
 #
 50% DOD, and, 3,000 cycles @ 20% DOD @ 20% DOD, for the L16-P  L16-H.

 I hope this helps. Let me know if I can shed further light on other 
 attributes of
 lead acid batteries.

 Sunniest regards,

 John

 John F. DeBoever
 Global Technical  Projects Director – Renewable Energy
 Trojan Battery Company

 12380 Clark Street
 Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
 Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
 Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
 Skype: john.f.deboever
 Fax: +1-562-236-3239
 jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com
 www.trojanbattery.com


 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Lerner
 Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:26 PM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 I am back to using Trojan's after 12 years of trying others,  none seem to 
 last
 as long for the L16's.  Could anybody explain the technical differences 
 between
 the Trojan L16 and the L16RE-B's.  I have read all the brochures but would 
 like
 to understand what is going on in there instead of getting the marketing of
 DuraGrid™, MaxGuard® XL separator and Alpha Plus.

 Thanks very much,

 Jason Lerner

 Waldron Power and Light and Co.
 On Jun 29, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Jonathan Hill wrote:


 Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!
 Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder

 Sierra Solar Systems
 563C Idaho Maryland Road
 Grass Valley, CA 95945
 Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
 tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754
 order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
 e-mail:  mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com
 world wide web:  http://www.sierrasolar.com

 Check out our 2 minute video at:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk



 On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:


 We have had less

Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Howie Michaelson]

Although I'm not clear on this, my impression is that when flooded
batteries float for long periods of time, the electrolyte stratifies and
creates various aging problems, which is why I assume one would want to
cycle the batteries at least somewhat on a somewhat regular basis...

Howie
-- 
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Catamount Solar, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric  Hot Water Incentive Partner
http://www.CatamountSolar.com
802-272-0004


On Fri, July 13, 2012 12:19 pm, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:
 The more savvy customers I will recommend they turn off
  the PV's when they are there to get a deep discharge in.

 um, why use up battery cycles unnecessarily like this?

 todd







 On Friday, July 13, 2012 7:28am, Jason Lerner wapa...@rockisland.com
 said:

 ___
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 www.members.re-wrenches.org

 Hello John,

 This time of year I service off grid summer cabins where people come up
 once a
 year for a few weeks.  The batteries in these systems generally do not
 die from
 over cycling,  but from over/under watering,  acid stratification,
 corrosion,  and
 generally being ignored.  The more savvy customers I will recommend they
 turn off
 the PV's when they are there to get a deep discharge in.

 Could you recommend any thing else they could do to lengthen their
 battery bank
 lifespan? These systems generally have a small PV charging capability,
 and float
 charge 350 days a year. It seems ironic that these systems that really
 never get
 used,  and my battery bank at home that gets used (but not abused) and
 cycled
 daily, will last the same number of years.

 Thanks very much,

 Jason Lerner

 Waldron Power and Light Co.

 On Jul 9, 2012, at 12:53 PM, John DeBoever wrote:

 Jason, Wrenches,

 Thank you for your patience and positive statements on Trojan Battery
 Company.
 Last week was a busy and I was away from my desk most of the time with
 limited
 access to Internet.

 Both the Premium ”RE” versions L16RE-A and L16RE-B, and, the
 Signature  L16P  L16H are great deep-cycles lead acid batteries for
 solar
 applications. The key differences between them are:

 ü  The grid is thicker for the Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16RE-B,
 which effectively reinforces further the frame strength which results
 into a
 greater corrosion resistance;
 ü  There is relatively more electrolyte in contact with the plates in
 the
 Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16REB, which enhances the electrochemical
 reaction, particularly during PSOC;
 ü  The rubber-based multi-rib geometry separator is approx. 30%
 thicker for
 the Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which translates into a
 longer
 life of the separator. The thicker multi-ribs geometry keeps over time
 the acid
 channels open longer, promoting the flow of the electrolyte . As a
 result, the
 thicker separator is reducing the risk of stratification and enhancing
 electrochemical processing throughout the plates, resulting into longer
 continuous performance of the battery.
 ü  In the approx. same form factor (except the height), this results
 into
 more lead per Ah capacity on the L16-RE units nameplate.

 As a consequence, the cycling performances of the Premium “RE” is
 1,600 cycles @ 50% DOD and 4,000 cycles @ 20% DOD. Respectively 1,200
 cycles #
 50% DOD, and, 3,000 cycles @ 20% DOD @ 20% DOD, for the L16-P  L16-H.

 I hope this helps. Let me know if I can shed further light on other
 attributes of
 lead acid batteries.

 Sunniest regards,

 John

 John F. DeBoever
 Global Technical  Projects Director – Renewable Energy
 Trojan Battery Company

 12380 Clark Street
 Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
 Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
 Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
 Skype: john.f.deboever
 Fax: +1-562-236-3239
 jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com
 www.trojanbattery.com


 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason
 Lerner
 Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:26 PM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 I am back to using Trojan's after 12 years of trying others,  none seem
 to last
 as long for the L16's.  Could anybody explain the technical differences
 between
 the Trojan L16 and the L16RE-B's.  I have read all the brochures but
 would like
 to understand what is going on in there instead of getting the
 marketing of
 DuraGrid™, MaxGuard® XL separator and Alpha Plus.

 Thanks very much,

 Jason Lerner

 Waldron Power and Light and Co.
 On Jun 29, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Jonathan Hill wrote

Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[John DeBoever]

Wrenches,

Forcing a lead acid battery to cycle for the fun of it reduces its cycle life.

In a nutshell, lead acid batteries have “five lives”, each varying depending 
their specific intrinsic technology attributes developed by the battery OEM:

o   Cycle life

o   Corrosion life

o   Stratification life

o   Shorting life

o   And… Temperature life

These lives are all inter-connected and temperature is the one that is the most 
influent to all of them. The interesting part is that all of these “5 lives” 
are 90% of the time exacerbated by the system sizing (cyclic/non-cyclic, loads, 
insollation, PV array, battery bank size, wiring and power conditioning losses, 
etc.), the install, the setting points commissioning, the maintenance, not to 
forget the load patterns (perceived vs. reality dynamics and growth of the 
load).  Cycling for cycling does not increase the battery life. Adequate 
cycling based on adequate full recharge keep the battery in good health.

John

John F. DeBoever
Global Technical  Projects Director – Renewable Energy
Trojan Battery Company

12380 Clark Street
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
Skype: john.f.deboever
Fax: +1-562-236-3239
jdeboe...@trojanbattery.commailto:jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com
www.trojanbattery.comhttp://www.trojanbattery.com/


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
la...@starlightsolar.com
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2012 12:18 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

Jason,

Forcing a lead acid battery to deeply discharge does not increase capacity or 
life of the battery. It only shortens battery life and may damage the battery. 
This is one of many battery myths.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
From: Jason Lerner wapa...@rockisland.commailto:wapa...@rockisland.com
Date: Fri, July 13, 2012 7:28 am
To: RE-wrenches 
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Hello John,

This time of year I service off grid summer cabins where people come up once a 
year for a few weeks.  The batteries in these systems generally do not die from 
over cycling,  but from over/under watering,  acid stratification, corrosion,  
and generally being ignored.  The more savvy customers I will recommend they 
turn off the PV's when they are there to get a deep discharge in.

Could you recommend any thing else they could do to lengthen their battery bank 
lifespan? These systems generally have a small PV charging capability,  and 
float charge 350 days a year. It seems ironic that these systems that really 
never get used,  and my battery bank at home that gets used (but not abused) 
and cycled daily, will last the same number of years.

Thanks very much,

Jason Lerner

Waldron Power and Light Co.


This e-mail message and any attachments that accompany it may contain 
information that is confidential, privileged, or protected from disclosure.  
It is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom it was intended 
to be addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, or you are not 
the intended recipient, any reading, disclosure, copying or other use of this 
communication is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this communication 
in error, please immediately advise the sender at their phone number listed 
above, or by electronic mail, and also permanently delete the original and all 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[larry]

Howie,The solution is to drive the battery voltage above the gassing point of about 2.37Vpc. If this is done regularly, stratification is not an issue. The best procedure for flooded batteries that remain in float mode for long time periods is periodic equalization charges of 2.58Vpc or more.Larry CrutcherStarlight Solar Power Systems


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
From: "Howie Michaelson" ho...@suncatchervt.com
Date: Fri, July 13, 2012 9:36 am
To: "RE-wrenches" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Although I'm not clear on this, my impression is that when flooded
batteries float for long periods of time, the electrolyte stratifies and
creates various aging problems, which is why I assume one would want to
cycle the batteries at least somewhat on a somewhat regular basis...

Howie
-- 
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Catamount Solar, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric  Hot Water Incentive Partner
http://www.CatamountSolar.com
802-272-0004




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[b...@midnitesolar.com]

On 7/13/2012 9:36 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote:

Although I'm not clear on this, my impression is that when flooded
batteries float for long periods of time, the electrolyte stratifies and
creates various aging problems, which is why I assume one would want to
cycle the batteries at least somewhat on a somewhat regular basis...

Howie



I think the word cycle should be changed to Absorb charge when 
talking about
keeping the batteries in good health and to keep from sulfating. An hour 
or two Absorb charge
every week or two will help situations like this.  Not ending the charge 
with finishing or ending

amps.

I dont' think that DIScharging the battery is part of this.  Just get 
its voltage up there

for a while and watch the water/electrolyte level.

boB



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[John DeBoever]

Jason, Wrenches,

Thank you for your patience and positive statements on Trojan Battery Company. 
Last week was a busy and I was away from my desk most of the time with limited 
access to Internet.

Both the Premium RE versions L16RE-A and L16RE-B, and, the Signature  L16P  
L16H are great deep-cycles lead acid batteries for solar applications. The key 
differences between them are:


ü  The grid is thicker for the Premium RE L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which 
effectively reinforces further the frame strength which results into a greater 
corrosion resistance;

ü  There is relatively more electrolyte in contact with the plates in the 
Premium RE L16RE-A and L16REB, which enhances the electrochemical reaction, 
particularly during PSOC;

ü  The rubber-based multi-rib geometry separator is approx. 30% thicker for the 
Premium RE L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which translates into a longer life of the 
separator. The thicker multi-ribs geometry keeps over time the acid channels 
open longer, promoting the flow of the electrolyte . As a result, the thicker 
separator is reducing the risk of stratification and enhancing electrochemical 
processing throughout the plates, resulting into longer continuous performance 
of the battery.

ü  In the approx. same form factor (except the height), this results into more 
lead per Ah capacity on the L16-RE units nameplate.


As a consequence, the cycling performances of the Premium RE is 1,600 cycles 
@ 50% DOD and 4,000 cycles @ 20% DOD. Respectively 1,200 cycles # 50% DOD, and, 
3,000 cycles @ 20% DOD @ 20% DOD, for the L16-P  L16-H.

I hope this helps. Let me know if I can shed further light on other attributes 
of lead acid batteries.

Sunniest regards,

John

John F. DeBoever
Global Technical  Projects Director - Renewable Energy
Trojan Battery Company

12380 Clark Street
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
Cell: +1-845-514-7600 - NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
Skype: john.f.deboever
Fax: +1-562-236-3239
jdeboe...@trojanbattery.commailto:jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com
www.trojanbattery.comhttp://www.trojanbattery.com/


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Lerner
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

I am back to using Trojan's after 12 years of trying others,  none seem to last 
as long for the L16's.  Could anybody explain the technical differences between 
the Trojan L16 and the L16RE-B's.  I have read all the brochures but would like 
to understand what is going on in there instead of getting the marketing of 
DuraGrid(tm), MaxGuard® XL separator and Alpha Plus.

Thanks very much,

Jason Lerner

Waldron Power and Light and Co.
On Jun 29, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Jonathan Hill wrote:


Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!
Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder

Sierra Solar Systems
563C Idaho Maryland Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945
Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754
order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
e-mail:  mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com
world wide web:  http://www.sierrasolar.comhttp://www.sierrasolar.com/

Check out our 2 minute video at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk



On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:


We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16's that we 
installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of 
the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16's and also Surrette/Rolls. I've been 
using those since 1985.

Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B's either L-16, or T-105. And have used 
Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good success with another set 
ordered.

Dave

From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

Just got talked into buying Crown (395Ah@20Hrmailto:395Ah@20Hr) as my local 
rep, the battery expert, was persuasive in his testimony to their 
reliability. Should've consulted wrenches first.

Should I be worried??

Eric Stikes
SunHarvest Solar
+1 (530) 798 - 3738
www.harvesthesun.comhttp://www.harvesthesun.com/
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Richard L Ratico]

John,

Thanks for that clarification. One question: What is PSOC? Partial State Of
Charge?

Dick Ratico
Solarwind Electric


--- You wrote:
Jason, Wrenches,

Thank you for your patience and positive statements on Trojan Battery Company.
Last week was a busy and I was away from my desk most of the time with limited
access to Internet.

Both the Premium RE versions L16RE-A and L16RE-B, and, the Signature  L16P 
L16H are great deep-cycles lead acid batteries for solar applications. The key
differences between them are:


u  The grid is thicker for the Premium RE L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which
effectively reinforces further the frame strength which results into a greater
corrosion resistance;

u  There is relatively more electrolyte in contact with the plates in the
Premium RE L16RE-A and L16REB, which enhances the electrochemical reaction,
particularly during PSOC;

u  The rubber-based multi-rib geometry separator is approx. 30% thicker for the
Premium RE L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which translates into a longer life of the
separator. The thicker multi-ribs geometry keeps over time the acid channels
open longer, promoting the flow of the electrolyte . As a result, the thicker
separator is reducing the risk of stratification and enhancing electrochemical
processing throughout the plates, resulting into longer continuous performance
of the battery.

u  In the approx. same form factor (except the height), this results into more
lead per Ah capacity on the L16-RE units nameplate.


As a consequence, the cycling performances of the Premium RE is 1,600 cycles @
50% DOD and 4,000 cycles @ 20% DOD. Respectively 1,200 cycles # 50% DOD, and,
3,000 cycles @ 20% DOD @ 20% DOD, for the L16-P  L16-H.

I hope this helps. Let me know if I can shed further light on other attributes
of lead acid batteries.

Sunniest regards,

John

John F. DeBoever
Global Technical  Projects Director - Renewable Energy
Trojan Battery Company
--- end of quote ---
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[toddcory]

and the difference betaeen the L16RE-A  L16RE-B is?
 
todd
 
 
 
On Monday, July 9, 2012 12:53pm, John DeBoever jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com 
said:




Jason, Wrenches,
 
Thank you for your patience and positive statements on Trojan Battery Company. 
Last week was a busy and I was away from my desk most of the time with limited  
access to Internet.
 
Both the Premium ”RE” versions L16RE-A and L16RE-B, and, the Signature  L16P  
L16H are great deep-cycles lead acid batteries for solar applications. The key  
differences between them are:
 
ü The grid is thicker for the Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16RE-B,  which 
effectively reinforces further the frame strength which results into a greater 
corrosion resistance; 
ü There is relatively more electrolyte in contact with the plates in the 
Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16REB, which enhances the electrochemical reaction,  
particularly during PSOC; 
ü The rubber-based  multi-rib geometry separator is approx. 30% thicker for the 
Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which translates into a longer life of the 
separator. The thicker multi-ribs geometry keeps over time the acid channels 
open longer, promoting the flow of the electrolyte  . As a result, the thicker 
separator is reducing the risk of stratification and enhancing electrochemical 
processing throughout the plates, resulting into longer continuous performance 
of the battery. 
ü In the approx. same form factor (except the height), this results into more 
lead per Ah capacity on the L16-RE units nameplate.
 
As a consequence, the cycling performances of the Premium “RE” is 1,600 cycles 
@ 50% DOD and 4,000 cycles @ 20% DOD. Respectively 1,200 cycles # 50% DOD, and, 
 3,000 cycles @ 20% DOD @ 20% DOD, for the L16-P  L16-H.
 
I hope this helps. Let me know if I can shed further light on other attributes 
of lead acid batteries.
 
Sunniest regards,
 
John
 
John F. DeBoever
Global Technical  Projects Director – Renewable Energy
Trojan Battery Company
 
12380 Clark Street 
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
Skype: john.f.deboever
Fax: +1-562-236-3239
[mailto:jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com] jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com 
[http://www.trojanbattery.com/] www.trojanbattery.com 
 
 


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Lerner
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
 
I am back to using Trojan's after 12 years of trying others,  none seem to last 
as long for the L16's.  Could anybody explain the technical differences between 
the Trojan L16 and the L16RE-B's.  I have read all the brochures but would like 
 to understand what is going on in there instead of getting the marketing of 
DuraGrid™, MaxGuard® XL separator and Alpha Plus.

 

Thanks very much,

 

Jason Lerner

 

Waldron Power and Light and Co.



On Jun 29, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Jonathan Hill wrote:




Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!












Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder 

 












Sierra Solar Systems 

563C Idaho Maryland Road

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!

tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 

order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760

e-mail:  [mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com] mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com

world wide web:  [http://www.sierrasolar.com/] http://www.sierrasolar.com
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk] 
 Check out our 2 minute video at: 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk



 
 


On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:





We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16’s that we 
installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of 
the cycle  life compared to Trojan L-16’s and also Surrette/Rolls. I’ve been 
using those since 1985.

 

Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B’s either L-16, or T-105. And have used 
Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good success with another set  
ordered.

 

Dave

 



From: [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On  Behalf Of SunHarvest
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 


Just got talked into buying Crown ([mailto:395Ah@20Hr] 395Ah@20Hr) as my local 
rep, the battery expert, was persuasive in his testimony to their 
reliability.  Should've consulted wrenches first.


 


Should I be worried??


 


Eric Stikes
 SunHarvest Solar
 +1 (530) 798 - 3738
[http://www.harvesthesun.com/] www.harvesthesun.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[John DeBoever]

Dick,

Yes, correct, partial state of charge.

John



On Jul 9, 2012, at 18:45, Richard L Ratico richard.l.rat...@valley.net 
wrote:

 John,
 
 Thanks for that clarification. One question: What is PSOC? Partial State Of
 Charge?
 
 Dick Ratico
 Solarwind Electric
 
 
 --- You wrote:
 Jason, Wrenches,
 
 Thank you for your patience and positive statements on Trojan Battery Company.
 Last week was a busy and I was away from my desk most of the time with limited
 access to Internet.
 
 Both the Premium RE versions L16RE-A and L16RE-B, and, the Signature  L16P 
 L16H are great deep-cycles lead acid batteries for solar applications. The key
 differences between them are:
 
 
 u  The grid is thicker for the Premium RE L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which
 effectively reinforces further the frame strength which results into a greater
 corrosion resistance;
 
 u  There is relatively more electrolyte in contact with the plates in the
 Premium RE L16RE-A and L16REB, which enhances the electrochemical reaction,
 particularly during PSOC;
 
 u  The rubber-based multi-rib geometry separator is approx. 30% thicker for 
 the
 Premium RE L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which translates into a longer life of the
 separator. The thicker multi-ribs geometry keeps over time the acid channels
 open longer, promoting the flow of the electrolyte . As a result, the thicker
 separator is reducing the risk of stratification and enhancing electrochemical
 processing throughout the plates, resulting into longer continuous performance
 of the battery.
 
 u  In the approx. same form factor (except the height), this results into more
 lead per Ah capacity on the L16-RE units nameplate.
 
 
 As a consequence, the cycling performances of the Premium RE is 1,600 
 cycles @
 50% DOD and 4,000 cycles @ 20% DOD. Respectively 1,200 cycles # 50% DOD, and,
 3,000 cycles @ 20% DOD @ 20% DOD, for the L16-P  L16-H.
 
 I hope this helps. Let me know if I can shed further light on other attributes
 of lead acid batteries.
 
 Sunniest regards,
 
 John
 
 John F. DeBoever
 Global Technical  Projects Director - Renewable Energy
 Trojan Battery Company
 --- end of quote ---
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[John DeBoever]

Todd,

They both belong to the same Premium  battery category.  They differentiate by 
Ah size, although very close to each other:

ü  L16RE-A is 323 Ah @ C20 @ 1.75VPC @ 80oF;

ü  L16RE-B is 370 Ah @ C20 @ 1.75VPC @ 80oF;
See more info on the datasheet, here:
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/datasheets/L16REA_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/datasheets/L16REB_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf

Sunniest regards,

John

John F. DeBoever
Global Technical  Projects Director – Renewable Energy
Trojan Battery Company
12380 Clark Street
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
Skype: john.f.deboever
Fax: +1-562-236-3239
jdeboe...@trojanbattery.commailto:jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com
www.trojanbattery.comhttp://www.trojanbattery.com/

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of 
toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 7:19 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience


and the difference betaeen the L16RE-A  L16RE-B is?



todd







On Monday, July 9, 2012 12:53pm, John DeBoever 
jdeboe...@trojanbattery.commailto:jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com said:
Jason, Wrenches,
Thank you for your patience and positive statements on Trojan Battery Company. 
Last week was a busy and I was away from my desk most of the time with limited 
access to Internet.
Both the Premium ”RE” versions L16RE-A and L16RE-B, and, the Signature  L16P  
L16H are great deep-cycles lead acid batteries for solar applications. The key 
differences between them are:

ü  The grid is thicker for the Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which 
effectively reinforces further the frame strength which results into a greater 
corrosion resistance;

ü  There is relatively more electrolyte in contact with the plates in the 
Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16REB, which enhances the electrochemical reaction, 
particularly during PSOC;

ü  The rubber-based multi-rib geometry separator is approx. 30% thicker for the 
Premium “RE” L16RE-A and L16RE-B, which translates into a longer life of the 
separator. The thicker multi-ribs geometry keeps over time the acid channels 
open longer, promoting the flow of the electrolyte . As a result, the thicker 
separator is reducing the risk of stratification and enhancing electrochemical 
processing throughout the plates, resulting into longer continuous performance 
of the battery.

ü  In the approx. same form factor (except the height), this results into more 
lead per Ah capacity on the L16-RE units nameplate.
As a consequence, the cycling performances of the Premium “RE” is 1,600 cycles 
@ 50% DOD and 4,000 cycles @ 20% DOD. Respectively 1,200 cycles # 50% DOD, and, 
3,000 cycles @ 20% DOD @ 20% DOD, for the L16-P  L16-H.
I hope this helps. Let me know if I can shed further light on other attributes 
of lead acid batteries.
Sunniest regards,
John
John F. DeBoever
Global Technical  Projects Director – Renewable Energy
Trojan Battery Company
12380 Clark Street
Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670
Tel: +1-562-236-3000 Ext. 3139
Cell: +1-845-514-7600 – NY office time zone: USA EST (GMT-5)
Skype: john.f.deboever
Fax: +1-562-236-3239
jdeboe...@trojanbattery.commailto:jdeboe...@trojanbattery.com
www.trojanbattery.comhttp://www.trojanbattery.com/
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Lerner
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

I am back to using Trojan's after 12 years of trying others,  none seem to last 
as long for the L16's.  Could anybody explain the technical differences between 
the Trojan L16 and the L16RE-B's.  I have read all the brochures but would like 
to understand what is going on in there instead of getting the marketing of 
DuraGrid™, MaxGuard® XL separator and Alpha Plus.

Thanks very much,

Jason Lerner

Waldron Power and Light and Co.
On Jun 29, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Jonathan Hill wrote:

Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!
Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder
Sierra Solar Systems
563C Idaho Maryland Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945
Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754
order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
e-mail:  mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com
world wide web:  http://www.sierrasolar.comhttp://www.sierrasolar.com/

Check out our 2 minute video at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk


On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:

We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16’s that we 
installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of 
the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16’s and also Surrette/Rolls. I’ve been 
using those since 1985.
Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B’s either L-16

Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[bob ellison]

I will put on my flame suit and just say that Trojan seem to outlive the
batteries listed below.

With all things the same, I have on several occasions replaced 10-12 year
old Trojan L-16's with Deka's and the Deka's lasted 3 years in the same
place with exactly the same customers, equipment and assumingly the same
care. 

 

Stick with Trojan's you just do not have to carry them to the battery box so
often.

No real experience with Surrettes but know other dealers who have, some are
hard to get full charged. 

 

I avoid the following in no real order,

 

Interstate

Exide

Dynasty

Deka (I do use their 2 volt cells to build big battery banks with good
results)

Sam's club (from whoever the builder is this year).

Bull Dog, industrial cells, long story. They failed in 6 months in a
Zamboni.

Avoid any Chinese battery.

 

Add any others that come to mind, I just got done with a 2250 mile drive in
2 days and my mind is mush.

 

I can list more but the mind is just not up to it, between the miles and 106
degree temps I'm toast!

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan
Hill
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 9:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!

Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder

 

Sierra Solar Systems

563C Idaho Maryland Road

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!

tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 

order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760

e-mail:  mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com

world wide web:  http://www.sierrasolar.com

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk 
Check out our 2 minute video at: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk





 

On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:





We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16's that we
installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of
the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16's and also Surrette/Rolls. I've been
using those since 1985.

 

Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B's either L-16, or T-105. And have
used Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good success with
another set ordered.

 

Dave

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Just got talked into buying Crown (395Ah@20Hr) as my local rep, the battery
expert, was persuasive in his testimony to their reliability. Should've
consulted wrenches first.

 

Should I be worried??

 

Eric Stikes
SunHarvest Solar
+1 (530) 798 - 3738
www.harvesthesun.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Jeff Wongstrom]

I have had bad luck with Trojan batteriesthat were installed 3-5 years agohaving had several premature L16 failures. Some of the batteries had one cell fail within 1-2 years. Most of the batteries were well cared for and most were the HC model. Prior to the HC model I had good luck with Trojan batteries sometimes seeing 10-12 year life spans. Maybe the RE-B are a better battery than the HC but I am eager to try a different manufacturer. I have had good luck with Solar One batteries but they are a hard sell.Jeff
Jeff WongstromNABCEP Certified406.291.3416Check out the new website:www.thirstylakesolar.com

On Jul 1, 2012, at 3:29 PM, bob ellison wrote:I will put on my flame suit and just say that Trojan seem to outlive the batteries listed below.With all things the same, I have on several occasions replaced 10-12 year old Trojan L-16’s with Deka’s and the Deka’s lasted 3 years in the same place with exactly the same customers, equipment and assumingly the same care.Stick with Trojan’s you just do not have to carry them to the battery box so often…No real experience with Surrettes but know other dealers who have, some are hard to get full charged.I avoid the following in no real order,InterstateExideDynastyDeka (I do use their 2 volt cells to build big battery banks with good results)Sam’s club (from whoever the builder is this year).Bull Dog, industrial cells, long story. They failed in 6 months in a Zamboni.Avoid any Chinese battery.Add any others that come to mind, I just got done with a 2250 mile drive in 2 days and my mind is mush.I can list more but the mind is just not up to it, between the miles and 106 degree temps I’m toast!Later,Bob EllisonFrom:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf OfJonathan HillSent:Friday, June 29, 2012 9:41 PMTo:RE-wrenchesSubject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery ExperienceOver 20years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founderSierra Solar Systems563C Idaho Maryland RoadGrass Valley, CA 95945Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!tech info and foreign orders:(530) 273-6754order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)FAX:(530) 273-1760e-mail:mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.comworld wide web:http://www.sierrasolar.comCheck out our 2 minute video at:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEkOn Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16’s that we installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16’s and also Surrette/Rolls. I’ve been using those since 1985.Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B’s either L-16, or T-105. And have used Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good success with another set ordered.DaveFrom:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf OfSunHarvestSent:Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AMTo:RE-wrenchesSubject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery ExperienceJust got talked into buying Crown (395Ah@20Hr) as my localrep, "the battery expert", was persuasive in his testimony to their reliability. Should've consulted wrenches first.Should I be worried??Eric StikesSunHarvest Solar+1 (530) 798 - 3738www.harvesthesun.com___List sponsored by Home Power magazineList Address:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgOptions  settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules  etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org___List sponsored by Home Power magazineList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgOptions  settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules  etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[bob ellison]

No experience with the Hup cells.

I avoid all of the HC batteries in power systems because they generally have
a stronger electrolyte and a shorter cycle life. Something like between 350
cycles v/s 400 cycles for the standard L-16's.

I have a big set installed that fully charged is between 1.315 and 1.325 SG.
That's what the school district wanted for the unit. Had to get a special
hydrometer to read them.

 

Later,

Bob 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeff
Wongstrom
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 5:55 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

I have had bad luck with Trojan batteries that were installed 3-5 years ago
having had several premature L16 failures.  Some of the batteries had one
cell fail within 1-2 years.  Most of the batteries were well cared for and
most were the HC model.  Prior to the HC model I had good luck with Trojan
batteries sometimes seeing 10-12 year life spans.  Maybe the RE-B are a
better battery than the HC  but I am eager to try a different manufacturer.


 

I have had good luck with Solar One batteries but they are a hard sell.

 

Jeff

 

 


Jeff Wongstrom

NABCEP Certified

406.291.3416

Check out the new website:

www.thirstylakesolar.com

 

 






 

On Jul 1, 2012, at 3:29 PM, bob ellison wrote:





I will put on my flame suit and just say that Trojan seem to outlive the
batteries listed below.

With all things the same, I have on several occasions replaced 10-12 year
old Trojan L-16's with Deka's and the Deka's lasted 3 years in the same
place with exactly the same customers, equipment and assumingly the same
care.

 

Stick with Trojan's you just do not have to carry them to the battery box so
often.

No real experience with Surrettes but know other dealers who have, some are
hard to get full charged.

 

I avoid the following in no real order,

 

Interstate

Exide

Dynasty

Deka (I do use their 2 volt cells to build big battery banks with good
results)

Sam's club (from whoever the builder is this year).

Bull Dog, industrial cells, long story. They failed in 6 months in a
Zamboni.

Avoid any Chinese battery.

 

Add any others that come to mind, I just got done with a 2250 mile drive in
2 days and my mind is mush.

 

I can list more but the mind is just not up to it, between the miles and 106
degree temps I'm toast!

 

Later,

Bob Ellison

 

 

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan
Hill
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 9:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!

Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder

 

Sierra Solar Systems

563C Idaho Maryland Road

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!

tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 

order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760

e-mail:  mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com

world wide web:  http://www.sierrasolar.com

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk 
Check out our 2 minute video at: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk






 

On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:






We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16's that we
installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of
the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16's and also Surrette/Rolls. I've been
using those since 1985.

 

Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B's either L-16, or T-105. And have
used Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good success with
another set ordered.

 

Dave

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Just got talked into buying Crown (395Ah@20Hr) as my local rep, the battery
expert, was persuasive in his testimony to their reliability. Should've
consulted wrenches first.

 

Should I be worried??

 

Eric Stikes
SunHarvest Solar
+1 (530) 798 - 3738
www.harvesthesun.com

___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Jonathan Hill]

The only problems I've heard of with Trojans is with the HC. We use hundreds of 
L16-P's with no problems ever. I don't believe there is a better brand out 
there in the same price range.

Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder
Sierra Solar Systems
563C Idaho Maryland Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945
Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 
order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
e-mail:  mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com
world wide web:  http://www.sierrasolar.com

On Jul 1, 2012, at 2:54 PM, Jeff Wongstrom wrote:

 I have had bad luck with Trojan batteries that were installed 3-5 years ago 
 having had several premature L16 failures.  Some of the batteries had one 
 cell fail within 1-2 years.  Most of the batteries were well cared for and 
 most were the HC model.  Prior to the HC model I had good luck with Trojan 
 batteries sometimes seeing 10-12 year life spans.  Maybe the RE-B are a 
 better battery than the HC  but I am eager to try a different manufacturer.  
 
 I have had good luck with Solar One batteries but they are a hard sell.
 
 Jeff
 
 
 LOGO.jpg
 Jeff Wongstrom
 NABCEP Certified
 406.291.3416
 Check out the new website:
 www.thirstylakesolar.com
 
 
 
 
 
 On Jul 1, 2012, at 3:29 PM, bob ellison wrote:
 
 I will put on my flame suit and just say that Trojan seem to outlive the 
 batteries listed below.
 With all things the same, I have on several occasions replaced 10-12 year 
 old Trojan L-16’s with Deka’s and the Deka’s lasted 3 years in the same 
 place with exactly the same customers, equipment and assumingly the same 
 care.
  
 Stick with Trojan’s you just do not have to carry them to the battery box so 
 often…
 No real experience with Surrettes but know other dealers who have, some are 
 hard to get full charged.
  
 I avoid the following in no real order,
  
 Interstate
 Exide
 Dynasty
 Deka (I do use their 2 volt cells to build big battery banks with good 
 results)
 Sam’s club (from whoever the builder is this year).
 Bull Dog, industrial cells, long story. They failed in 6 months in a Zamboni.
 Avoid any Chinese battery.
  
 Add any others that come to mind, I just got done with a 2250 mile drive in 
 2 days and my mind is mush.
  
 I can list more but the mind is just not up to it, between the miles and 106 
 degree temps I’m toast!
  
 Later,
 Bob Ellison
  
  
  
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hill
 Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 9:41 PM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
  
 Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!
 Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder
  
 Sierra Solar Systems
 563C Idaho Maryland Road
 Grass Valley, CA 95945
 Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
 tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 
 order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
 e-mail:  mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com
 world wide web:  http://www.sierrasolar.com
 
 Check out our 2 minute video at: 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk
 
 
  
 On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:
 
 
 We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16’s that we 
 installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of 
 the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16’s and also Surrette/Rolls. I’ve been 
 using those since 1985.
  
 Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B’s either L-16, or T-105. And have 
 used Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good success with 
 another set ordered.
  
 Dave
  
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest
 Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
  
 Just got talked into buying Crown (395Ah@20Hr) as my local rep, the battery 
 expert, was persuasive in his testimony to their reliability. Should've 
 consulted wrenches first.
  
 Should I be worried??
  
 Eric Stikes
 SunHarvest Solar
 +1 (530) 798 - 3738
 www.harvesthesun.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Jason Lerner]

I am back to using Trojan's after 12 years of trying others,  none seem to last 
as long for the L16's.  Could anybody explain the technical differences between 
the Trojan L16 and the L16RE-B's.  I have read all the brochures but would like 
to understand what is going on in there instead of getting the marketing of 
DuraGrid™, MaxGuard® XL separator and Alpha Plus.

Thanks very much,

Jason Lerner

Waldron Power and Light and Co.
On Jun 29, 2012, at 6:41 PM, Jonathan Hill wrote:

 Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!
 Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder
 
 Sierra Solar Systems
 563C Idaho Maryland Road
 Grass Valley, CA 95945
 Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
 tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 
 order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
 e-mail:  mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com
 world wide web:  http://www.sierrasolar.com
 
 Check out our 2 minute video at: 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk
 
 
 On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:
 
 We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16’s that we 
 installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of 
 the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16’s and also Surrette/Rolls. I’ve been 
 using those since 1985.
  
 Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B’s either L-16, or T-105. And have 
 used Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good success with 
 another set ordered.
  
 Dave
  
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest
 Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
  
 Just got talked into buying Crown (395Ah@20Hr) as my local rep, the battery 
 expert, was persuasive in his testimony to their reliability. Should've 
 consulted wrenches first.
  
 Should I be worried??
  
 Eric Stikes
 SunHarvest Solar
 +1 (530) 798 - 3738
 www.harvesthesun.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[SunHarvest]

Just got talked into buying Crown (395Ah@20Hr) as my local rep, the battery 
expert, was persuasive in his testimony to their reliability. Should've 
consulted wrenches first.

Should I be worried??

Eric Stikes
SunHarvest Solar
+1 (530) 798 - 3738
www.harvesthesun.com___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Dave Palumbo]

We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16's that we
installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of
the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16's and also Surrette/Rolls. I've been
using those since 1985.

 

Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B's either L-16, or T-105. And have
used Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good success with
another set ordered.

 

Dave

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Just got talked into buying Crown (395Ah@20Hr) as my local rep, the battery
expert, was persuasive in his testimony to their reliability. Should've
consulted wrenches first.

 

Should I be worried??

 

Eric Stikes
SunHarvest Solar
+1 (530) 798 - 3738
www.harvesthesun.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Jonathan Hill]

Over 20 years experience with them says you can't go wring with Trojan!
Jonathan Hill, senior system engineer and founder

Sierra Solar Systems
563C Idaho Maryland Road
Grass Valley, CA 95945
Celebrating our 32nd year in solar!
tech info and foreign orders:  (530) 273-6754 
order line: (888) ON-SOLAR (US only)   FAX:  (530) 273-1760
e-mail:  mailto:solar...@sierrasolar.com
world wide web:  http://www.sierrasolar.com

Check out our 2 minute video at: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY-0UuabPEk


On Jun 29, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:

 We have had less than stellar performance out of the Crown L-16’s that we 
 installed 4 to 5 years ago. Premature failure is my experience. About 60% of 
 the cycle life compared to Trojan L-16’s and also Surrette/Rolls. I’ve been 
 using those since 1985.
  
 Back to using Trojan. Specifically RE-B’s either L-16, or T-105. And have 
 used Trojan Industrial IND 13-6V on one system with good success with another 
 set ordered.
  
 Dave
  
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest
 Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 11:56 AM
 To: RE-wrenches
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience
  
 Just got talked into buying Crown (395Ah@20Hr) as my local rep, the battery 
 expert, was persuasive in his testimony to their reliability. Should've 
 consulted wrenches first.
  
 Should I be worried??
  
 Eric Stikes
 SunHarvest Solar
 +1 (530) 798 - 3738
 www.harvesthesun.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Maverick Brown [Maverick Solar]]

I vote for absolyte.

I have a customer with 22kw of PV (8 MX60s), an 8 stack of Outback FX inverters 
and a 9600Ah @ 48V Absolyte IIP AGM battery bank. It has been going strong 
since 2006. 

Thank you,

Maverick


Maverick Brown
BSEET, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ®
President  CEO
Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
Office: 512-919-4493
Cell:512-460-9825

Sent from an iPhone. 

On Feb 8, 2012, at 10:02 AM, wes kennedy hathaso...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Howdy Gents,
  
 I have a project (high altitude, off grid, 25 kw PV, 9 x SI5048's, 
 multicluster) where I am considering two similar batteries.
  
 The Absolyte GP (GNB 100G17)  vs the Deka Unigy II (AVR95-19).  Both have 
 similar reported Lifecycle curves, 1200-1300 cycles at 80% DOD.
  
 Any field experience to share? The Deka seems better on paper, larger AH 
 capacity per dollar quoted from my distributor.
  
  
 Thanks!
  
 -Wes Kennedy
 Solar Geek since 1996
 303-653-3073
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Ken Schaal]

We have used Deka wet and sealed, AGM and Gel, since 1999 and never had a 
premature failure.
I have a set of 8D AGM's  in my own system.
The local factory warehouse is responsive to our needs.

Ken Schaal
CommonWealth Solar
  - Original Message - 
  From: Larry Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems 
  To: wes kennedy ; RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 3:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience


  Wes,


  While I don't have experience with the Deka Unigy AGM's,  I can tell you that 
we are experiencing many failures of the 4D, 8D and other 6 and 12 volt Deka 
AGM batteries. The company will not respond to the problems so we will never 
sell another Deka or MK (made by Deka) AGM battery.


  Larry Crutcher
  Starlight Solar Power Systems
  (928) 342-9103




  On Feb 8, 2012, at 9:02 AM, wes kennedy wrote:


  Howdy Gents,

  I have a project (high altitude, off grid, 25 kw PV, 9 x SI5048's, 
multicluster) where I am considering two similar batteries.

  The Absolyte GP (GNB 100G17)  vs the Deka Unigy II (AVR95-19).  Both have 
similar reported Lifecycle curves, 1200-1300 cycles at 80% DOD. 

  Any field experience to share? The Deka seems better on paper, larger AH 
capacity per dollar quoted from my distributor. 


  Thanks!

  -Wes Kennedy
  Solar Geek since 1996
  303-653-3073







--


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Ken,

Interesting. Do you know if Deka has more than one manufacturing plant? 

My Deka representative did respond. Perhaps I could have expressed this better: 
the response was they are out of warranty. I knew that.  However, due to the 
number of Deka battery failures we were experiencing, I would have expected 
something more than no warranty.  They did replace one 8D that failed at 13 
months. Thanks Deka.

During the last few years that we sold and installed the Deka AGM's, we also 
sold Lifeline, Sun Xtender, Trojan, Optima and FullRiver. We sold 3 times as 
many Lifeline as we did Deka. Zero failures form any other brand.

I have a customer coming in today that has 2 8D AGM's. I installed these 11 
months ago. His complaint is that the voltage will drop to 11.5 within 5 hours 
of use. I'll let you know what I find.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Feb 9, 2012, at 5:24 AM, Ken Schaal wrote:

We have used Deka wet and sealed, AGM and Gel, since 1999 and never had a 
premature failure.
I have a set of 8D AGM's  in my own system.
The local factory warehouse is responsive to our needs.
 
Ken Schaal
CommonWealth Solar
- Original Message -
From: Larry Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems
To: wes kennedy ; RE-wrenches
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

Wes,

While I don't have experience with the Deka Unigy AGM's,  I can tell you that 
we are experiencing many failures of the 4D, 8D and other 6 and 12 volt Deka 
AGM batteries. The company will not respond to the problems so we will never 
sell another Deka or MK (made by Deka) AGM battery.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103


On Feb 8, 2012, at 9:02 AM, wes kennedy wrote:

Howdy Gents,
 
I have a project (high altitude, off grid, 25 kw PV, 9 x SI5048's, 
multicluster) where I am considering two similar batteries.
 
The Absolyte GP (GNB 100G17)  vs the Deka Unigy II (AVR95-19).  Both have 
similar reported Lifecycle curves, 1200-1300 cycles at 80% DOD.
 
Any field experience to share? The Deka seems better on paper, larger AH 
capacity per dollar quoted from my distributor.
 
 
Thanks!
 
-Wes Kennedy
Solar Geek since 1996
303-653-3073





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Chris Schaefer]

Wes,

Is there any reason why you are not considering Surrette? I see
on the list that wrenches are talking about AGM, but I can't imagine using
them when considering the size of your system. Their (Surrette) service has
been A++. I have several systems that are now over 10 years old and show
very little sign of aging. I love their dual containment system.

 

Good Luck,

Christopher Schaefer

 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Ken,

 

Interesting. Do you know if Deka has more than one manufacturing plant? 

 

My Deka representative did respond. Perhaps I could have expressed this
better: the response was they are out of warranty. I knew that.  However,
due to the number of Deka battery failures we were experiencing, I would
have expected something more than no warranty.  They did replace one 8D
that failed at 13 months. Thanks Deka.

 

During the last few years that we sold and installed the Deka AGM's, we also
sold Lifeline, Sun Xtender, Trojan, Optima and FullRiver. We sold 3 times as
many Lifeline as we did Deka. Zero failures form any other brand.

 

I have a customer coming in today that has 2 8D AGM's. I installed these 11
months ago. His complaint is that the voltage will drop to 11.5 within 5
hours of use. I'll let you know what I find.


Larry Crutcher

Starlight Solar Power Systems

 

 

 

On Feb 9, 2012, at 5:24 AM, Ken Schaal wrote:





We have used Deka wet and sealed, AGM and Gel, since 1999 and never had a
premature failure.

I have a set of 8D AGM's  in my own system.

The local factory warehouse is responsive to our needs.

 

Ken Schaal

CommonWealth Solar

- Original Message -

From: Larry mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com  Crutcher,Starlight Solar
Power Systems

To: wes kennedy mailto:hathaso...@yahoo.com  ; RE-wrenches
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 

Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 3:14 PM

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Wes,

 

While I don't have experience with the Deka Unigy AGM's,  I can tell you
that we are experiencing many failures of the 4D, 8D and other 6 and 12 volt
Deka AGM batteries. The company will not respond to the problems so we will
never sell another Deka or MK (made by Deka) AGM battery.




Larry Crutcher

Starlight Solar Power Systems

(928) 342-9103

 

 

On Feb 8, 2012, at 9:02 AM, wes kennedy wrote:

 

Howdy Gents,

 

I have a project (high altitude, off grid, 25 kw PV, 9 x SI5048's,
multicluster) where I am considering two similar batteries.

 

The Absolyte GP (GNB 100G17)  vs the Deka Unigy II (AVR95-19).  Both have
similar reported Lifecycle curves, 1200-1300 cycles at 80% DOD.

 

Any field experience to share? The Deka seems better on paper, larger AH
capacity per dollar quoted from my distributor.

 

 

Thanks!

 

-Wes Kennedy

Solar Geek since 1996
303-653-3073

 

 

 


  _  


 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Mark Dickson]

Just have to chime in here about Surrette. . .

We have used them almost exclusively in the past as they seem far superior
to the other batteries in their class.  However, recently we had a customer
have three 2KS33PS prematurely fail in their bank after 5 years.  After
swapping them out and shipping them back to Surrette, we were told that yes
indeed they were bad and at no fault of the customer.  After badgering them
to follow through on their 10yr (prorated) warranty they finally relented
and offered the customer a check for $40 per battery!!!  Talk about
pro-rated!  Thus they figured these batteries were only worth ~3% of what
they originally cost 5 years prior.  We were offered more from the battery
recycler.

We were pretty bummed about this as was our customer.   It would be nice if
battery companies were forced to list their pro-rating chart with their
warranty statements.  We will probably continue to sell them while at the
same time looking for other options and taking their 10 year warranty with a
grain of salt.

 

Best regards,

 

Mark Dickson,

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer T

Oasis Montana Inc.

Mark Dickson, Certified Solar PV Installer

 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris
Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 9:28 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Wes,

Is there any reason why you are not considering Surrette? I see
on the list that wrenches are talking about AGM, but I can't imagine using
them when considering the size of your system. Their (Surrette) service has
been A++. I have several systems that are now over 10 years old and show
very little sign of aging. I love their dual containment system.

 

Good Luck,

Christopher Schaefer

 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Ken,

 

Interesting. Do you know if Deka has more than one manufacturing plant? 

 

My Deka representative did respond. Perhaps I could have expressed this
better: the response was they are out of warranty. I knew that.  However,
due to the number of Deka battery failures we were experiencing, I would
have expected something more than no warranty.  They did replace one 8D
that failed at 13 months. Thanks Deka.

 

During the last few years that we sold and installed the Deka AGM's, we also
sold Lifeline, Sun Xtender, Trojan, Optima and FullRiver. We sold 3 times as
many Lifeline as we did Deka. Zero failures form any other brand.

 

I have a customer coming in today that has 2 8D AGM's. I installed these 11
months ago. His complaint is that the voltage will drop to 11.5 within 5
hours of use. I'll let you know what I find.


Larry Crutcher

Starlight Solar Power Systems

 

 

 

On Feb 9, 2012, at 5:24 AM, Ken Schaal wrote:

 

We have used Deka wet and sealed, AGM and Gel, since 1999 and never had a
premature failure.

I have a set of 8D AGM's  in my own system.

The local factory warehouse is responsive to our needs.

 

Ken Schaal

CommonWealth Solar

- Original Message -

From: Larry mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com  Crutcher,Starlight Solar
Power Systems

To: wes kennedy mailto:hathaso...@yahoo.com  ; RE-wrenches
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 

Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 3:14 PM

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

 

Wes,

 

While I don't have experience with the Deka Unigy AGM's,  I can tell you
that we are experiencing many failures of the 4D, 8D and other 6 and 12 volt
Deka AGM batteries. The company will not respond to the problems so we will
never sell another Deka or MK (made by Deka) AGM battery.




Larry Crutcher

Starlight Solar Power Systems

(928) 342-9103

 

 

On Feb 8, 2012, at 9:02 AM, wes kennedy wrote:

 

Howdy Gents,

 

I have a project (high altitude, off grid, 25 kw PV, 9 x SI5048's,
multicluster) where I am considering two similar batteries.

 

The Absolyte GP (GNB 100G17)  vs the Deka Unigy II (AVR95-19).  Both have
similar reported Lifecycle curves, 1200-1300 cycles at 80% DOD.

 

Any field experience to share? The Deka seems better on paper, larger AH
capacity per dollar quoted from my distributor.

 

 

Thanks!

 

-Wes Kennedy

Solar Geek since 1996
303-653-3073

 

 

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Marv Dargatz]

Has anybody on this list ever used Thermoil?  http://thermoil.com/

My dad has a Jeep that sits for months at a time while they travel in the 
winter.  He used Thermoil in the battery when it was new, and it's still going 
strong after more than ten years.  He also put it in the house batteries in his 
motorhome, and they still have most of their capacity after 12 years.  I'm not 
sure if it's related to the use of Thermoil, but he says that the battery 
terminals do not show signs of corrosion either.

It's about time to replace my 48V battery bank, and I'd sure like to hear what 
you guys think about this.  Comments from battery manufacturers would also be 
appreciated.


See ya!

Marv
Director of Technology and Support, North America
SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
Tech Support North America:  +877.360.5292
Mobile: +530.392.0356

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Schaefer
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 8:28 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

Wes,
Is there any reason why you are not considering Surrette? I see on 
the list that wrenches are talking about AGM, but I can't imagine using them 
when considering the size of your system. Their (Surrette) service has been 
A++. I have several systems that are now over 10 years old and show very little 
sign of aging. I love their dual containment system.

Good Luck,
Christopher Schaefer


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry 
Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2012 11:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

Ken,

Interesting. Do you know if Deka has more than one manufacturing plant?

My Deka representative did respond. Perhaps I could have expressed this better: 
the response was they are out of warranty. I knew that.  However, due to the 
number of Deka battery failures we were experiencing, I would have expected 
something more than no warranty.  They did replace one 8D that failed at 13 
months. Thanks Deka.

During the last few years that we sold and installed the Deka AGM's, we also 
sold Lifeline, Sun Xtender, Trojan, Optima and FullRiver. We sold 3 times as 
many Lifeline as we did Deka. Zero failures form any other brand.

I have a customer coming in today that has 2 8D AGM's. I installed these 11 
months ago. His complaint is that the voltage will drop to 11.5 within 5 hours 
of use. I'll let you know what I find.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Feb 9, 2012, at 5:24 AM, Ken Schaal wrote:

We have used Deka wet and sealed, AGM and Gel, since 1999 and never had a 
premature failure.
I have a set of 8D AGM's  in my own system.
The local factory warehouse is responsive to our needs.

Ken Schaal
CommonWealth Solar
- Original Message -
From: Larry Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power 
Systemsmailto:la...@starlightsolar.com
To: wes kennedymailto:hathaso...@yahoo.com ; 
RE-wrenchesmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

Wes,

While I don't have experience with the Deka Unigy AGM's,  I can tell you that 
we are experiencing many failures of the 4D, 8D and other 6 and 12 volt Deka 
AGM batteries. The company will not respond to the problems so we will never 
sell another Deka or MK (made by Deka) AGM battery.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103


On Feb 8, 2012, at 9:02 AM, wes kennedy wrote:

Howdy Gents,

I have a project (high altitude, off grid, 25 kw PV, 9 x SI5048's, 
multicluster) where I am considering two similar batteries.

The Absolyte GP (GNB 100G17)  vs the Deka Unigy II (AVR95-19).  Both have 
similar reported Lifecycle curves, 1200-1300 cycles at 80% DOD.

Any field experience to share? The Deka seems better on paper, larger AH 
capacity per dollar quoted from my distributor.


Thanks!

-Wes Kennedy
Solar Geek since 1996
303-653-3073





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Experience

[Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Wes,

While I don't have experience with the Deka Unigy AGM's,  I can tell you that 
we are experiencing many failures of the 4D, 8D and other 6 and 12 volt Deka 
AGM batteries. The company will not respond to the problems so we will never 
sell another Deka or MK (made by Deka) AGM battery.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103


On Feb 8, 2012, at 9:02 AM, wes kennedy wrote:

Howdy Gents,
 
I have a project (high altitude, off grid, 25 kw PV, 9 x SI5048's, 
multicluster) where I am considering two similar batteries.
 
The Absolyte GP (GNB 100G17)  vs the Deka Unigy II (AVR95-19).  Both have 
similar reported Lifecycle curves, 1200-1300 cycles at 80% DOD.
 
Any field experience to share? The Deka seems better on paper, larger AH 
capacity per dollar quoted from my distributor.
 
 
Thanks!
 
-Wes Kennedy
Solar Geek since 1996
303-653-3073



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