Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On Mar 13, 2010, at 1:35 AM, Kris Kirby wrote: Don't forget that a public safety radio system and a Japanese ham protocol are two different things. The Japanese language is ideological, English is something else. We don't think the same, or implement things the same ways. That's one of the mildly interesting things about TRBO, it's not a Public Safety system. It's commercial, but rarely used in Public Safety... Perhaps what you're saying (paraphrased here) is MotoTRBO is D-STAR done by Americans.? LOL... that'll get me in trouble, I'm sure. That being said, if you've ever needed or wanted just work, you know how important that is. It's probably what's been lacking in almost every ARES plan. I ain't touchin' that comment with a ten foot pole. -- Nate Duehr, WY0X n...@natetech.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On Sun, 14 Mar 2010, Nate Duehr wrote: That's one of the mildly interesting things about TRBO, it's not a Public Safety system. It's commercial, but rarely used in Public Safety... Perhaps what you're saying (paraphrased here) is MotoTRBO is D-STAR done by Americans.? LOL... that'll get me in trouble, I'm sure. D-STAR requires too much work to be effective at message passing for any one except for the technically inclined who like to push buttons. It is trunking radio, minus the control channel, and all of the functions performed by the control channel are delegated to the user. MotoTRBO would be akin to an LTR system, or another trunking system, with the built-in capability for handling high-speed data. High speed as in 9600 bps, not 100-200 bps. If there is one thing that seems certain in the PS arena, it is that Motorola is trying to sell every solution except something APCO-25 compliant, and attempting to confuse thier customers into purchasing systems which are not. Not to say that they have bad ideas -- MotoTRBO brings in the experience of iDen to two-way radio, but the FCC pushing for more narrow-banded technologies, not dual channel solutions. Am I fully OT or not? If so, I'll STFU. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Kris, Mototrbo is not DStar and DStar only has one voice path. Just to add some confussion to the mix, There are many public safety agencies using Mototrbo and love it. Mike Mullarkey K7PFJ 6886 Sage Ave Firestone, CO 80504 303-736-9693 k7...@skybeam.com On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:54 PM, Kris Kirby wrote: On Sun, 14 Mar 2010, Nate Duehr wrote: That's one of the mildly interesting things about TRBO, it's not a Public Safety system. It's commercial, but rarely used in Public Safety... Perhaps what you're saying (paraphrased here) is MotoTRBO is D-STAR done by Americans.? LOL... that'll get me in trouble, I'm sure. D-STAR requires too much work to be effective at message passing for any one except for the technically inclined who like to push buttons. It is trunking radio, minus the control channel, and all of the functions performed by the control channel are delegated to the user. MotoTRBO would be akin to an LTR system, or another trunking system, with the built-in capability for handling high-speed data. High speed as in 9600 bps, not 100-200 bps. If there is one thing that seems certain in the PS arena, it is that Motorola is trying to sell every solution except something APCO-25 compliant, and attempting to confuse thier customers into purchasing systems which are not. Not to say that they have bad ideas -- MotoTRBO brings in the experience of iDen to two-way radio, but the FCC pushing for more narrow-banded technologies, not dual channel solutions. Am I fully OT or not? If so, I'll STFU. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On Mar 14, 2010, at 12:54 PM, Kris Kirby wrote: If there is one thing that seems certain in the PS arena, it is that Motorola is trying to sell every solution except something APCO-25 compliant, and attempting to confuse thier customers into purchasing systems which are not. Actually around here they've sold hundreds, if not a couple thousand P-25 rigs too. Another fun side note a friend pointed out the other day... they'll sell low-grade encryption for them for $8/radio that's 100% proprietary... so if you mix those radios with another manufacturer's, you can't run encrypted to each other. High-grade encryption (standardized by P-25 standards) is hundreds of dollars per rig. Cute trick. Hey not saying they're not pushing the other stuff too, but they'll sell anything... they're Motorola... (GRIN)... the 800 lb Gorilla is selling both P-25 and their own stuff, of course. :-) :-) :-) A rich, competitive marketplace -- that tries to work around every possible inter-manufactuerer standard ever devised... same as it ever was... -- Nate Duehr, WY0X n...@natetech.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On Mar 14, 2010, at 2:49 PM, k7pfj wrote: Just to add some confussion to the mix, There are many public safety agencies using Mototrbo and love it. Not to mention blowing any chance of their radios interoperating with the County next door... Tower of Babel. Build it to the sky. That's the end-game, right? :-) -- Nate Duehr, WY0X n...@natetech.com
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On Fri, 12 Mar 2010, Nate Duehr wrote: It's well-implemented, and as one local pointed out... it behaves like I expect a commercial radio system to... he was comparing to D-STAR where you *have* to fidget and mess with callsigns, etc... to really utilize all the features... in TRBO, he switches the rig to Channel 1 to talk locally, and Channel 2 to talk to a pre-defined group of IP-linked repeaters... obviously, this is dirt-simple, and keeps the complexity for the user away, and places the complexity choices on the system operator/administrator. Not as flexible by any means, but sometimes you're just looking for it to just work. Don't forget that a public safety radio system and a Japanese ham protocol are two different things. The Japanese language is ideological, English is something else. We don't think the same, or implement things the same ways. That being said, if you've ever needed or wanted just work, you know how important that is. It's probably what's been lacking in almost every ARES plan. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
From what some are saying, all 'colors' are active on all repeaters. It's like having a repeater that passes CTCSS. Anyone can use your repeater and you cannot shut the code (or color) off. Again, this is what I'm hearing from some people. Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: The color codes are like CTCSS or DCS, someone wants to use your repeater they have to know your frequency, and what color codes are active on the repeater, I assume.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
But if it passes everything, it's like putting a repeater on the air CSQ - you can't have another repeater within range of the first one. Joe M. Brian Raker wrote: You do have to program it to use a set frequency pair, just like any other repeater. -BR On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 5:53 PM, MCH m...@nb.net wrote: So if there are two TRBO repeaters in the same area, there is no way to keep them both from being active and interfering with each other? That doesn't sound right. Or, if I have a repeater, anyone can just buy TRBO radios and use it? Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: On 3/11/2010 1:54 PM, MCH wrote: I was talking about how many can be programmed in the repeater, not necessarily active at the same time per se. IOW, how many talkgroups can you program into the repeater. I'm assuming that you can 'deprogram' some if you have two systems in the same area. I think WD8CHL answered the question I had - any or all can be made active (except for a few reserved for special use). Joe M. AFAIK the repeater doesn't get programmed with them at all. It just passes them. They're just addresses. The radios handle whether or not they're listening for a particular talk group. Nate Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2736 - Release Date: 03/11/10 02:33:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
So you have color codes, TGs, AND RIDs and each repeater has only one color code? How many color codes are there, and how would I know if someone were using the repeater who is not authorized? Joe M. surf_boy82 wrote: MotoTRBO systems (handhelds, mobiles, and repeaters) use color codes to determine which radios are associated with which repeater. These Color Codes are the equivalent of PL/DPL/NAC. Chris --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Mark n9...@... wrote: Joe, I *think* this system works like other trunking schemes, where each radio has an ID number associated to it, which it broadcasts with each PTT. THIS is what has to be authorized for repeater access, not the talkgroup. But I may be wrong - I'm not that familiar with MotoTRBO. (We do have a MotoTRBO system where I work - I can check further if necessary.) Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of MCH Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:42 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems Just the frequency, and not which TGs it passes? Do all TRBO repeaters pass all TRBO format transmissions? Even those of people who are not authorized to use the repeater? Joe M. Brian Raker wrote: You do have to program it to use a set frequency pair, just like any other repeater. -BR On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 5:53 PM, MCH m...@... wrote: So if there are two TRBO repeaters in the same area, there is no way to keep them both from being active and interfering with each other? That doesn't sound right. Or, if I have a repeater, anyone can just buy TRBO radios and use it? Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: On 3/11/2010 1:54 PM, MCH wrote: I was talking about how many can be programmed in the repeater, not necessarily active at the same time per se. IOW, how many talkgroups can you program into the repeater. I'm assuming that you can 'deprogram' some if you have two systems in the same area. I think WD8CHL answered the question I had - any or all can be made active (except for a few reserved for special use). Joe M. AFAIK the repeater doesn't get programmed with them at all. It just passes them. They're just addresses. The radios handle whether or not they're listening for a particular talk group. Nate Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On Mar 12, 2010, at 8:38 AM, MCH wrote: So you have color codes, TGs, AND RIDs and each repeater has only one color code? I'll see if I can find out about the color codes. I think a repeater will pass more than one, and I think you DO program that part... but not sure. They're only using one here. http://www.rmham.org/mototrbo.html There's another guy with one on the air here also, but he hasn't updated his website yet... How many color codes are there, and how would I know if someone were using the repeater who is not authorized? I believe there is a Windows client (if the repeater is connected to IP connectivity) that one can monitor with. I'll ask the guy who's running one locally. I would assume that Moto would have to put some method into the repeater to BILL for time, like call detail records in telecom, but who knows... that may be a 3rd party developed package... p.s. I have a feeling he might jump in here and clarify next week. He's at IWCE this week, but he is a list member... it's Mike K7PFJ. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On 3/12/2010 1:03 PM, nj902 wrote: Answers to most of the Mototrbo questions can be found in the Mototrbo System Planner. Here is some information on color codes and groups copied from that document: Color codes are defined by the Digital Mobile Radio (DMR) standard and can be used to separate two or more MOTOTRBO digital radio systems which operate on common frequencies. The total number of available color codes per frequency is 16. From a radio user's perspective the color code is similar in nature to a Group ID. However, it should not be used for this purpose. Just as Groups are intended to separate users into groups, the color code is intended to uniquely identify systems or channels which operate on common frequencies. In MOTOTRBO systems, capabilities for Group Calls are configured with the portable and mobile radio CPS. The repeater does not require any specific configuration for groups. Radios can be configured to enable the user to select among multiple groups using the radio channel selector knob or buttons, or using the radio menu contacts list. Which group a radio user hears on a given channel depends on a configurable parameter called the RX Group List. Very succinct answer, thanks. That all matches what I suspected. Someone else had forwarded me a copy of the system planner document just this morning, but I hadn't had any time to read/review it. Quickie question (that'll be answered when I get around to reading it, but I suspect the answer is no)... does the System Planner document cover the new(er) trunking functionality at all? (Not that I can afford two or more repeaters, nor need them, nor even a TRBO radio right now... ha... just curious more than anything.) Comparing all these similar-but-different digital systems keeps the brain sharp... digging through their specs looking for something REALLY innovative, is always fun. Nothing in TRBO is all that innovative, so far in my reading. It's well-implemented, and as one local pointed out... it behaves like I expect a commercial radio system to... he was comparing to D-STAR where you *have* to fidget and mess with callsigns, etc... to really utilize all the features... in TRBO, he switches the rig to Channel 1 to talk locally, and Channel 2 to talk to a pre-defined group of IP-linked repeaters... obviously, this is dirt-simple, and keeps the complexity for the user away, and places the complexity choices on the system operator/administrator. Not as flexible by any means, but sometimes you're just looking for it to just work. I'm SERIOUSLY curious to find out how it behaves with collisions in the IP routed world. And their announcement that they have transmission interrupt functionality is fascinating. There's a couple ways they could implement that, but I assume it's a priority decision made by the repeater... one station talking on a particular TG, another keys up (on second channel) on same TG, repeater sees they're a higher priority user, and stops passing the first user's transmission and switches to the second user's... could get very confusing in practice, if the rigs don't have a good way to signal the stop of one transmission and the beginning of the next, but if they higher-priority traffic gets through -- okay, that's good. Now start mixing the collision problem in the IP-linking and the new priority feature. Ahh, a system's integrator/systems testers dream Excel spreadsheet of possible tests comes out of that... would be fun to document it all. Well, if I were getting PAID to do it, it would, anyway. LOL! That testing would be time-consuming, but fun. I bet a few sure-fire examples of unintended consequences would come out of that testing. Then add trunking. The matrix of required tests to document all the scenarios is almost already out of control, mixing all of those features together. They keep adding stuff, they'll hit the too complex to test point, pretty soon. Thanks for the info. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Great info. I assume that users are shut off via a 'kill code' to the radio since the repeater cannot be used to allow selective access. Also, is there a URL for the system planner? Joe M. nj902 wrote: Answers to most of the Mototrbo questions can be found in the Mototrbo System Planner. Here is some information on color codes and groups copied from that document: Color codes are defined by the Digital Mobile Radio (DMR) standard and can be used to separate two or more MOTOTRBO digital radio systems which operate on common frequencies. The total number of available color codes per frequency is 16. From a radio user's perspective the color code is similar in nature to a Group ID. However, it should not be used for this purpose. Just as Groups are intended to separate users into groups, the color code is intended to uniquely identify systems or channels which operate on common frequencies. In MOTOTRBO systems, capabilities for Group Calls are configured with the portable and mobile radio CPS. The repeater does not require any specific configuration for groups. Radios can be configured to enable the user to select among multiple groups using the radio channel selector knob or buttons, or using the radio menu contacts list. Which group a radio user hears on a given channel depends on a configurable parameter called the RX Group List. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On 3/12/2010 1:46 PM, MCH wrote: Great info. I assume that users are shut off via a 'kill code' to the radio since the repeater cannot be used to allow selective access. Also, is there a URL for the system planner? Joe M. Since I don't know if I'm supposed to have it, I sanitized it of where I got it from, and forwarded to you in private e-mail, Joe. Anyone else dying to see it... it'll magically appear in your inbox if you ask off-list, but you didn't get it from me, of course. LOL! (And thanks to the person who forwarded it to me. I'm looking forward to reading it.) It's close to 10 MB... don't bother asking if your e-mail provider won't allow that, or you don't want the big attachment. Just sayin'. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
If you search with Google, you can find the full PDF. -BR On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 3:16 PM, Nate Duehr n...@natetech.com wrote: On 3/12/2010 1:46 PM, MCH wrote: Great info. I assume that users are shut off via a 'kill code' to the radio since the repeater cannot be used to allow selective access. Also, is there a URL for the system planner? Joe M. Since I don't know if I'm supposed to have it, I sanitized it of where I got it from, and forwarded to you in private e-mail, Joe. Anyone else dying to see it... it'll magically appear in your inbox if you ask off-list, but you didn't get it from me, of course. LOL! (And thanks to the person who forwarded it to me. I'm looking forward to reading it.) It's close to 10 MB... don't bother asking if your e-mail provider won't allow that, or you don't want the big attachment. Just sayin'. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
The Motorola docs have likely been updated for the recently announced MTR3000 and the MTR2000 upgrade, as well as the new XPR8380 800MHz repeater. -Brian On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 4:11 PM, nj902 wb0...@arrl.net wrote: The current version of the Planner document discusses the Capacity Plus [trunking] and IP Site Connect modes. This document carries part number 6880309T12-H and is available at MOL where it appears to have been posted 11 Feb 2010. There are several new Mototrbo documents there - some posted as recently as yesterday. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Nate Duehr n...@... wrote: ...does the System Planner document cover the new(er) trunking functionality at all? ... Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
I have created a MotoTrbo Information folder in the Files section of this Group. Some of the documents posted there may answer your questions. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of MCH Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 12:47 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems Great info. I assume that users are shut off via a 'kill code' to the radio since the repeater cannot be used to allow selective access. Also, is there a URL for the system planner? Joe M. nj902 wrote: Answers to most of the Mototrbo questions can be found in the Mototrbo System Planner. Here is some information on color codes and groups copied from that document: Color codes are defined by the Digital Mobile Radio (DMR) standard and can be used to separate two or more MOTOTRBO digital radio systems which operate on common frequencies. The total number of available color codes per frequency is 16. From a radio user's perspective the color code is similar in nature to a Group ID. However, it should not be used for this purpose. Just as Groups are intended to separate users into groups, the color code is intended to uniquely identify systems or channels which operate on common frequencies. In MOTOTRBO systems, capabilities for Group Calls are configured with the portable and mobile radio CPS. The repeater does not require any specific configuration for groups. Radios can be configured to enable the user to select among multiple groups using the radio channel selector knob or buttons, or using the radio menu contacts list. Which group a radio user hears on a given channel depends on a configurable parameter called the RX Group List. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
I talked to an owner of a system last night and he confirmed that user ID's are 8 digit, as are talk groups. There are some numbers that are reserved for all-call and other things, so the straight math doesn't work out exactly, but it's so many theoretical users and talk groups, you'd never hit the limit on a system. Also there's new features to allow trunking at a site, and multiple repeaters, but even then... eight digits is plenty for even a large multi-repeater setup. It's surprising this info isn't on any web pages anywhere... Nate On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:33 PM, MCH wrote: Just to clarify, I'm talking about what would be equal to talkgroups. Although it does make me feel better others cannot find the answer either. :-) Joe M.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Time to start taking the lead and develop something!! http://developer.motorola.com/products/twowayradios/ Nate Duehr wrote: I talked to an owner of a system last night and he confirmed that user ID's are 8 digit, as are talk groups. There are some numbers that are reserved for all-call and other things, so the straight math doesn't work out exactly, but it's so many theoretical users and talk groups, you'd never hit the limit on a system. Also there's new features to allow trunking at a site, and multiple repeaters, but even then... eight digits is plenty for even a large multi-repeater setup. It's surprising this info isn't on any web pages anywhere... Nate On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:33 PM, MCH wrote: Just to clarify, I'm talking about what would be equal to talkgroups. Although it does make me feel better others cannot find the answer either. :-) Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
And how many of these TGs can be used in a repeater at the same time? Thanks, Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: I talked to an owner of a system last night and he confirmed that user ID's are 8 digit, as are talk groups. There are some numbers that are reserved for all-call and other things, so the straight math doesn't work out exactly, but it's so many theoretical users and talk groups, you'd never hit the limit on a system. Also there's new features to allow trunking at a site, and multiple repeaters, but even then... eight digits is plenty for even a large multi-repeater setup. It's surprising this info isn't on any web pages anywhere... Nate On Mar 10, 2010, at 6:33 PM, MCH wrote: Just to clarify, I'm talking about what would be equal to talkgroups. Although it does make me feel better others cannot find the answer either. :-) Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Each repeater handles two 6.25 KHz channels simultaneously, if that's what you mean...? But both channels are continuously received by the portables/mobiles. The transmission is one big interlaced TDMA signal that takes up the full 12.5 KHz spectrum even if only one channel is in use. I can be on user ID 0100, TG 0100 talking to you, user ID 0200 on one channel... And someone else can be simultaneously talking as user ID 0300, on TG 0200 to user 0400. And we won't hear each other. On the same repeater. If you buy their trunking stuff, you can then link repeaters at a site, and each repeater box means two more simultaneous channels of data. How the system directs the mobile/portables as to which frequency to monitor, I don't know. Moto uses color names for the channels. The local system some hams here built has two colors... one is local traffic, the other is routed to the IP link to some other repeaters full-time. In practice, these are programmed as Channel 1 and Channel 2 in the portables/mobiles. Want to talk locally? Channel 1. To someone on one of the IP linked repeaters, Channel 2. AFAIK the repeater doesn't care at all about any of this. The rigs are receiving both channels at the same time, and just watch for the Color Code, Unit ID (in the case of unit-to-unit calling) or their TG and open squelch appropriately. That probably changes in the trunked environment - the repeaters obviously must be active in deciding which transmitter to turn on. Don't know how that piece works when you grow beyond a single repeater. I assume there's data being transmitted from one or more transmitters continuously that tells the mobile/portables when to frequency hop. In IP linking without trunking, I believe all transmitters go active if you transmit on the color that's linked. Don't know how it handles glare (Someone transmits on Repeater A's color code that's IP linked to Repeater B and someone else keys up at the same time on Repeater B with the same color code.) Also don't know what gets priority if someone places a unit-to-unit call on the local color at the same time as a remote linked call for the same Unit ID comes in, but that logic would be in the portable/mobile rigs, not the repeater. Nate WY0X On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:10 AM, MCH wrote: And how many of these TGs can be used in a repeater at the same time? Thanks, Joe M.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Don't they charge money for that privilege? I was under the impression that they do. Nate WY0X On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:00 AM, KT9AC wrote: Time to start taking the lead and develop something!! http://developer.motorola.com/products/twowayradios/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On 3/11/2010 11:10 AM, MCH wrote: And how many of these TGs can be used in a repeater at the same time? Thanks, Joe M. Outside of the ones that are dedicated to a specific purpose, like interconnect, etc, all of them. Like any other trunked system.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
And there is not any special option to order to get multiple TGs? The base model will support all TGs that are possible? Joe M. wd8chl wrote: On 3/11/2010 11:10 AM, MCH wrote: And how many of these TGs can be used in a repeater at the same time? Thanks, Joe M. Outside of the ones that are dedicated to a specific purpose, like interconnect, etc, all of them. Like any other trunked system. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
I was talking about how many can be programmed in the repeater, not necessarily active at the same time per se. IOW, how many talkgroups can you program into the repeater. I'm assuming that you can 'deprogram' some if you have two systems in the same area. I think WD8CHL answered the question I had - any or all can be made active (except for a few reserved for special use). Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: Each repeater handles two 6.25 KHz channels simultaneously, if that's what you mean...? But both channels are continuously received by the portables/mobiles. The transmission is one big interlaced TDMA signal that takes up the full 12.5 KHz spectrum even if only one channel is in use. I can be on user ID 0100, TG 0100 talking to you, user ID 0200 on one channel... And someone else can be simultaneously talking as user ID 0300, on TG 0200 to user 0400. And we won't hear each other. On the same repeater. If you buy their trunking stuff, you can then link repeaters at a site, and each repeater box means two more simultaneous channels of data. How the system directs the mobile/portables as to which frequency to monitor, I don't know. Moto uses color names for the channels. The local system some hams here built has two colors... one is local traffic, the other is routed to the IP link to some other repeaters full-time. In practice, these are programmed as Channel 1 and Channel 2 in the portables/mobiles. Want to talk locally? Channel 1. To someone on one of the IP linked repeaters, Channel 2. AFAIK the repeater doesn't care at all about any of this. The rigs are receiving both channels at the same time, and just watch for the Color Code, Unit ID (in the case of unit-to-unit calling) or their TG and open squelch appropriately. That probably changes in the trunked environment - the repeaters obviously must be active in deciding which transmitter to turn on. Don't know how that piece works when you grow beyond a single repeater. I assume there's data being transmitted from one or more transmitters continuously that tells the mobile/portables when to frequency hop. In IP linking without trunking, I believe all transmitters go active if you transmit on the color that's linked. Don't know how it handles glare (Someone transmits on Repeater A's color code that's IP linked to Repeater B and someone else keys up at the same time on Repeater B with the same color code.) Also don't know what gets priority if someone places a unit-to-unit call on the local color at the same time as a remote linked call for the same Unit ID comes in, but that logic would be in the portable/mobile rigs, not the repeater. Nate WY0X On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:10 AM, MCH wrote: And how many of these TGs can be used in a repeater at the same time? Thanks, Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Thanks for the explanation Nate. Reminds me of Smartnet II simulcast systems locally (one TG brings up all five sites for example). Tony Nate Duehr wrote: Each repeater handles two 6.25 KHz channels simultaneously, if that's what you mean...? But both channels are continuously received by the portables/mobiles. The transmission is one big interlaced TDMA signal that takes up the full 12.5 KHz spectrum even if only one channel is in use. I can be on user ID 0100, TG 0100 talking to you, user ID 0200 on one channel... And someone else can be simultaneously talking as user ID 0300, on TG 0200 to user 0400. And we won't hear each other. On the same repeater. If you buy their trunking stuff, you can then link repeaters at a site, and each repeater box means two more simultaneous channels of data. How the system directs the mobile/portables as to which frequency to monitor, I don't know. Moto uses color names for the channels. The local system some hams here built has two colors... one is local traffic, the other is routed to the IP link to some other repeaters full-time. In practice, these are programmed as Channel 1 and Channel 2 in the portables/mobiles. Want to talk locally? Channel 1. To someone on one of the IP linked repeaters, Channel 2. AFAIK the repeater doesn't care at all about any of this. The rigs are receiving both channels at the same time, and just watch for the Color Code, Unit ID (in the case of unit-to-unit calling) or their TG and open squelch appropriately. That probably changes in the trunked environment - the repeaters obviously must be active in deciding which transmitter to turn on. Don't know how that piece works when you grow beyond a single repeater. I assume there's data being transmitted from one or more transmitters continuously that tells the mobile/portables when to frequency hop. In IP linking without trunking, I believe all transmitters go active if you transmit on the color that's linked. Don't know how it handles glare (Someone transmits on Repeater A's color code that's IP linked to Repeater B and someone else keys up at the same time on Repeater B with the same color code.) Also don't know what gets priority if someone places a unit-to-unit call on the local color at the same time as a remote linked call for the same Unit ID comes in, but that logic would be in the portable/mobile rigs, not the repeater. Nate WY0X On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:10 AM, MCH wrote: And how many of these TGs can be used in a repeater at the same time? Thanks, Joe M. Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On 3/11/2010 3:50 PM, MCH wrote: And there is not any special option to order to get multiple TGs? The base model will support all TGs that are possible? Joe M. I don't see why not. It's part of the protocol, kinda like IP addresses...sorta... I'm gonna say it's on the order of 65535 total most likely... wd8chl wrote: On 3/11/2010 11:10 AM, MCH wrote: And how many of these TGs can be used in a repeater at the same time? Thanks, Joe M. Outside of the ones that are dedicated to a specific purpose, like interconnect, etc, all of them. Like any other trunked system.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On 3/11/2010 1:54 PM, MCH wrote: I was talking about how many can be programmed in the repeater, not necessarily active at the same time per se. IOW, how many talkgroups can you program into the repeater. I'm assuming that you can 'deprogram' some if you have two systems in the same area. I think WD8CHL answered the question I had - any or all can be made active (except for a few reserved for special use). Joe M. AFAIK the repeater doesn't get programmed with them at all. It just passes them. They're just addresses. The radios handle whether or not they're listening for a particular talk group. Nate
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
So if there are two TRBO repeaters in the same area, there is no way to keep them both from being active and interfering with each other? That doesn't sound right. Or, if I have a repeater, anyone can just buy TRBO radios and use it? Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: On 3/11/2010 1:54 PM, MCH wrote: I was talking about how many can be programmed in the repeater, not necessarily active at the same time per se. IOW, how many talkgroups can you program into the repeater. I'm assuming that you can 'deprogram' some if you have two systems in the same area. I think WD8CHL answered the question I had - any or all can be made active (except for a few reserved for special use). Joe M. AFAIK the repeater doesn't get programmed with them at all. It just passes them. They're just addresses. The radios handle whether or not they're listening for a particular talk group. Nate
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
You do have to program it to use a set frequency pair, just like any other repeater. -BR On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 5:53 PM, MCH m...@nb.net wrote: So if there are two TRBO repeaters in the same area, there is no way to keep them both from being active and interfering with each other? That doesn't sound right. Or, if I have a repeater, anyone can just buy TRBO radios and use it? Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: On 3/11/2010 1:54 PM, MCH wrote: I was talking about how many can be programmed in the repeater, not necessarily active at the same time per se. IOW, how many talkgroups can you program into the repeater. I'm assuming that you can 'deprogram' some if you have two systems in the same area. I think WD8CHL answered the question I had - any or all can be made active (except for a few reserved for special use). Joe M. AFAIK the repeater doesn't get programmed with them at all. It just passes them. They're just addresses. The radios handle whether or not they're listening for a particular talk group. Nate Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Just the frequency, and not which TGs it passes? Do all TRBO repeaters pass all TRBO format transmissions? Even those of people who are not authorized to use the repeater? Joe M. Brian Raker wrote: You do have to program it to use a set frequency pair, just like any other repeater. -BR On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 5:53 PM, MCH m...@nb.net wrote: So if there are two TRBO repeaters in the same area, there is no way to keep them both from being active and interfering with each other? That doesn't sound right. Or, if I have a repeater, anyone can just buy TRBO radios and use it? Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: On 3/11/2010 1:54 PM, MCH wrote: I was talking about how many can be programmed in the repeater, not necessarily active at the same time per se. IOW, how many talkgroups can you program into the repeater. I'm assuming that you can 'deprogram' some if you have two systems in the same area. I think WD8CHL answered the question I had - any or all can be made active (except for a few reserved for special use). Joe M. AFAIK the repeater doesn't get programmed with them at all. It just passes them. They're just addresses. The radios handle whether or not they're listening for a particular talk group. Nate Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2736 - Release Date: 03/11/10 02:33:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Joe, I *think* this system works like other trunking schemes, where each radio has an ID number associated to it, which it broadcasts with each PTT. THIS is what has to be authorized for repeater access, not the talkgroup. But I may be wrong - I'm not that familiar with MotoTRBO. (We do have a MotoTRBO system where I work - I can check further if necessary.) Mark - N9WYS -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com On Behalf Of MCH Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:42 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems Just the frequency, and not which TGs it passes? Do all TRBO repeaters pass all TRBO format transmissions? Even those of people who are not authorized to use the repeater? Joe M. Brian Raker wrote: You do have to program it to use a set frequency pair, just like any other repeater. -BR On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 5:53 PM, MCH m...@nb.net wrote: So if there are two TRBO repeaters in the same area, there is no way to keep them both from being active and interfering with each other? That doesn't sound right. Or, if I have a repeater, anyone can just buy TRBO radios and use it? Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: On 3/11/2010 1:54 PM, MCH wrote: I was talking about how many can be programmed in the repeater, not necessarily active at the same time per se. IOW, how many talkgroups can you program into the repeater. I'm assuming that you can 'deprogram' some if you have two systems in the same area. I think WD8CHL answered the question I had - any or all can be made active (except for a few reserved for special use). Joe M. AFAIK the repeater doesn't get programmed with them at all. It just passes them. They're just addresses. The radios handle whether or not they're listening for a particular talk group. Nate
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:53 PM, MCH wrote: So if there are two TRBO repeaters in the same area, there is no way to keep them both from being active and interfering with each other? That doesn't sound right. They're on different frequencies. Not sure what you're saying here. Or, if I have a repeater, anyone can just buy TRBO radios and use it? The color codes are like CTCSS or DCS, someone wants to use your repeater they have to know your frequency, and what color codes are active on the repeater, I assume. Those I'm sure are programmed into the repeater, but the data stream with the user ID's and talk group numbers, the repeater probably doesn't care about... it's just data passing by. It all depends on if they demodulate the digital signal at the repeater and then remodulate, whether or not they can do stuff with that information at the repeater site. They probably do, but they probably also rely on off-board applications via some standardized connector, protocol (likely serial), and an application programming interface to do that stuff at the repeater site. It would be shortsighted to put too much brains into the repeater box's controller itself modular is good, in this case. As far as how to really secure a radio network... first off, nothing's 100% secure.. but one implementation is like cell phone networks that have always had serialized radios that transmit their factory-burnt-in serial numbers, but very few 2-way systems have ever had that feature. I doubt TRBO does either. That would be the only way to keep a radio from talking on your repeater. (Think IMEI numbers on cell phones.) Another way is loading an encryption key into each rig that has access to a certain system, and using decryption on each stream to look and see that a particular rig is transmitting a specific key prior to repeating, whenever the radio keys up. That's a bit much, but could be done in any digital radio system. I hear that there's been talk of radio serialization in P25, somehow tied to the encryption functionality. If not that, there's supposedly already some proprietary systems that you can load an encryption key into a fleet of rigs, and those radios can then be remotely shut off or even fully wiped by the radio system manager... if someone steals one and want's to play with it. Stuff like that. But does TRBO have these features? I kinda doubt it. But again, I don't own any of these things... this stuff's just REALLY obvious to anyone who's worked in wireline data for 20 years. The two-way world is finally catching up to the rest of the world now that the on-air protocols are digital... the same progression is happening that happened to LAN technology that eventually became The Internet... 1. Get data flowing, build some protocols for transporting it. 2. Mess around with all the transport mechanisms for a few years until someone comes up with an elegant transport layer mechanism that everyone agrees is robust enough and simple enough to transport whatever. (TCP/IP... which is a misnomer, since UDP/IP is used just as heavily these days... but doesn't get its name up in lights.) While doing this, figure out a global routing scheme. 3. Realize dumb/malicious people will dork around with the transport if you let them. Employ encryption on the embedded data. 4. Realize again that dumb/malicious people will dork around with the unencrypted headers. Come out with a way to encrypt the whole thing that's so complex, no one's interested. Two-way digital radio is right in the middle of step two, historically speaking. Which digital on-air protocol is going to be the historical version of IP (a good protocol suite, annoyingly simple, and works well but has warts, and will survive seemingly forever), and which one is IPX (going to die but was probably implemented better for the short-term, but has limitations that mean it can't be used long-term), and which one is Banyan Vines (going to die REAL fast because it's too specialized but works well)... remains to be seen. :-) Same thing's going on in my line of work. ALL... and I mean ALL of the mistakes the audio-conferencing folks made in the 90's and then fixed, are being made again by the video-conferencing people, and fixed again. There's nothing new under the Sun. There could probably be a book written about this same technology cycle over and over again... or maybe there already has been... Early adopters are bright folks who get some TECH thing and it does little. They have to make it do something interesting or useful from scratch... Middle adopters come along, and the bright folks decide they're tired of answering questions so they make it easier by building systems from that tech that do useful things and take away some of the choices... Late adopters come along and by then, the middle adopters have formed fan camps and know that this is the best way to use this tech... this
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
p.s. If any of this were simple, tech support jobs would dry up and be a thing of the past. :-) I literally had a lady on the phone tonight who couldn't figure out that when she clicked on twenty different things at a time, her PC got so busy it caused the operating system to start throwing errors. (Actually she DID know this, but wanted to pretend she didn't.) She also didn't realize that this made it impossible to troubleshoot her actual PROBLEM she called about, and that saying you're computer illiterate when you're the person in charge of a large company's digital video systems and you're on the phone with the vendors tech support, isn't really all that funny or cute... but she thought it was. Not saying I wasn't glad she called. Hell, they pay me for this? All I have to do is be patient enough to outlast her clicking festival, ask her to close twenty windows and follow instructions, and then send me the log files so I can read exactly what the computer did wrong -- while her opinion was that the computer must just be as tired and cranky as I am? Talk about easy money... I'll take that phone call any day of the week. Especially since they pay me overtime. It did, however, cut into a class I was supposed to attend tonight for an outside-of-work extracurricular activity, so I was miffed... but I'll get over it when the paycheck arrives. How many people on this list have had to help HAMS (you know, the technical elite of the country's radio technicians and an asset to the country... bwahaha...) program a CTCSS tone into a radio so they could access a repeater. Be honest. You can learn how stuff works, or you can call Customer Service. :-) And I swear, sometimes people don't call with the goal of actually fixing said problem in mind, but thirty other things, and they're trying to do them all at once. This, of course, never works out well for them... but you just patiently wait until they figure this out, and then start over... Of course, we all have our specialties. I hate plumbing with a passion, and it hates me. My plumber makes as good a living as I do. Must be a lot of folks out there like me who handed a couple of simple pipe connectors and pipes, will screw it up EVERY time. I at least know better than to make jokes about how bad I am at plumbing, and how plumbing illiterate I am -- like it's funny or cute. I just tell him what I need done, ask for an estimate, and pay the man. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Along those lines? How many groups of users will the standard MotoTRBO repeater support in digital mode? I know it will do 2 simultaneously, but how many overall? Also, I know it will support a single NBFM user - can a CTCSS panel be attached to it? Thanks, Joe M. wb6wui wrote: Dan, TRBO-6 network website is: www.trbo.info and has some basic info for getting repeaters onto the network. Or checkout the yahoo group: mototrbousa ...Mike, wb6...@gmail.com --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Dan Blasberg ka8...@... wrote: Mike, In the DC area there is currently one UHF machine and about 5-10 amateurs playing with MOTOTRBO. I would be interested to know what other areas are using for setting or are they leaving everything in the default setting? Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2734 - Release Date: 03/10/10 02:33:00
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Thanks for the info Mike. Dan KA8YPY On Mar 10, 2010, at 12:19 PM, wb6wui wrote: Dan, TRBO-6 network website is: www.trbo.info and has some basic info for getting repeaters onto the network. Or checkout the yahoo group: mototrbousa ...Mike, wb6...@gmail.com --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Dan Blasberg ka8...@... wrote: Mike, In the DC area there is currently one UHF machine and about 5-10 amateurs playing with MOTOTRBO. I would be interested to know what other areas are using for setting or are they leaving everything in the default setting? Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
On 3/10/2010 1:47 PM, MCH wrote: Along those lines? How many groups of users will the standard MotoTRBO repeater support in digital mode? I know it will do 2 simultaneously, but how many overall? Also, I know it will support a single NBFM user - can a CTCSS panel be attached to it? Thanks, Joe M. I don't know the answer, Joe but I see a problem with the question... Are you talking about how many unique user ID's on a MotoTRBO system, or how many talk groups, or how many repeaters can be linked or...? So now you've had me Googling for an hour, and good ol' Moto and friends haven't bothered to document this level of detail anywhere public, other than mysterious marketing comments like saying, 1000's of users. Sigh. Where's the beef?! Annoying. Page after page of pretty PDF specs, without a single mention of these numbers, all over the place. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Just to clarify, I'm talking about what would be equal to talkgroups. Although it does make me feel better others cannot find the answer either. :-) Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: On 3/10/2010 1:47 PM, MCH wrote: Along those lines? How many groups of users will the standard MotoTRBO repeater support in digital mode? I know it will do 2 simultaneously, but how many overall? Also, I know it will support a single NBFM user - can a CTCSS panel be attached to it? Thanks, Joe M. I don't know the answer, Joe but I see a problem with the question... Are you talking about how many unique user ID's on a MotoTRBO system, or how many talk groups, or how many repeaters can be linked or...? So now you've had me Googling for an hour, and good ol' Moto and friends haven't bothered to document this level of detail anywhere public, other than mysterious marketing comments like saying, 1000's of users. Sigh. Where's the beef?! Annoying. Page after page of pretty PDF specs, without a single mention of these numbers, all over the place. Nate WY0X
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: HAM Mototrbo Systems
Hi all, It may a bit out of topic . For increase the coverage of a single site TDMA format repeater. Dual to the time delay from distance . Can we put a power Amp. to do that . Or Add a power Amp . on the FDMA fromat repeater may more , less better ? TNX 73s de VR2XVD On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:33 AM, MCH m...@nb.net wrote: Just to clarify, I'm talking about what would be equal to talkgroups. Although it does make me feel better others cannot find the answer either. :-) Joe M. Nate Duehr wrote: On 3/10/2010 1:47 PM, MCH wrote: Along those lines? How many groups of users will the standard MotoTRBO repeater support in digital mode? I know it will do 2 simultaneously, but how many overall? Also, I know it will support a single NBFM user - can a CTCSS panel be attached to it? Thanks, Joe M. I don't know the answer, Joe but I see a problem with the question... Are you talking about how many unique user ID's on a MotoTRBO system, or how many talk groups, or how many repeaters can be linked or...? So now you've had me Googling for an hour, and good ol' Moto and friends haven't bothered to document this level of detail anywhere public, other than mysterious marketing comments like saying, 1000's of users. Sigh. Where's the beef?! Annoying. Page after page of pretty PDF specs, without a single mention of these numbers, all over the place. Nate WY0X -- HKARA website : http://www.hkara.org.hk VR2XVD email : vr2...@yahoo.com,vr2...@gmail.com Please consider the environment before printing the email.
