Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
Hi, On Sun, Jul 05, 2020 at 06:27:31PM +, Andy Davidson wrote: > Perhaps you might think that this is an accident of how the 728 > document is drafted. Of the four Authors, one is the former RIPE > Chair and now NCC MD, one the new Chair and former/current NCC > employee, and ... Daniel the former nom-com Chair who???s role in > the selection of the community chair I have cited as poor governance. > Do we have so few people in the community that we have to work with > a tiny pool? If I judge by the number of volunteers for the NomCom, the amount of people interested in this sort of community work is not exactly overwhelming. If I look at who contributed to these documents - that were discussed on an open and public mailing list - the amount of people interested in this sort of community work is not exactly overwhelming either. Daniel has a deep interest (obviously, and still, after so many years) to ensure the well-being of the RIPE NCC *and* the RIPE community, and has invested enormous amounts of time both in actually *creating* a process, where we had none before, gathering volunteers for the NomCom, and pushing the selected members to do their job - all this in a manner that was totally independent from the NCC (e-mails went to a separate server hosted elsewhere, etc.), and very neutral on the actual candidates. > The heart of my complaint is a passion for bottom-up governance and the > primacy of community voice in the community. So - please help make the processes better. Not complain after the fact that the processes are not to your liking. [..] > Yes, this is why I precisely added my support to the request for > this to get fixed and I am extremely sad that the 2020 nom-com chair > disagreed. There is nothing in the process that says "we can change this any time while it's already running" - and we shouldn't. The NomCom discussed this at length, and we (not the chair) decided that we go on and do what we were volunteered for: select two candidates that would make a good RIPE chair. And so we did. Now is the time to improve the process. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
Hi, Benedikt, everyone On 04/07/2020, 12:57, Benedikt Stockebrand wrote: > Andy Davidson writes: >> HPH wrote: >>> I do want to acknowledge that concerns were raised quite late in the >>> process about the potential for capture or influence by the RIPE NCC. >> [...] >> Funny definition of 'potential'! > Andy, if I take this literally, you are claiming that the NCC *were* > capturing or influcencing the process. > If you actually mean that, then I really want to see you substantiate > that claim. You removed a line where I cite several examples of influence from my original intentionally short message. Therefore, I must summarise that you preferred sound-bite practice and not to engage debate. However, perhaps the examples were not enough for you. Perhaps you consider things to be only a mishap of bootstrapping because it will all be different next time. Well, not so: RIPE-728 requires that the next nom-com committee Chair must be entirely agreeable to ONLY Daniel, because only the former Chair has the power to recall the successive Chair. Does the next nom-com Chair do something that the NCC founder does not like? Daniel has free power to alter the Chair. Perhaps you might think that this is an accident of how the 728 document is drafted. Of the four Authors, one is the former RIPE Chair and now NCC MD, one the new Chair and former/current NCC employee, and ... Daniel the former nom-com Chair who’s role in the selection of the community chair I have cited as poor governance. Do we have so few people in the community that we have to work with a tiny pool? The heart of my complaint is a passion for bottom-up governance and the primacy of community voice in the community. > Considering how this entire chair selection run developed I am still > surprised that insinuations like yours haven't driven people to stepping > down from the various roles involved. I am pleased the record shows that you made this statement rather than I. > Additionally, there is a fair risk that political organizations outside > the community may still leverage the way how this affair turned out as > an indication that the community can't be trusted with the management of > resources critical to the world at large Yes, this is why I precisely added my support to the request for this to get fixed and I am extremely sad that the 2020 nom-com chair disagreed. Andy
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
+1 im Auftrag mit freundlichen Grüßen Constanze Bürger Von: arnold.nip...@de-cix.net Gesendet: 3. Juli 2020 00:03 An: niall.orei...@ucd.ie; m...@ripe.net Cc: ripe-list@ripe.net Betreff: Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected Dear Mirjam and dear Niall On 02.07.2020 13:21, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > > We are looking forward to working with all of you. > > Kind regards, > Mirjam Kühne and Niall O’Reilly > congratulations and good luck! Arnold -- Arnold Nipper Chief Technology Evangelist and Co-Founder DE-CIX Management GmbH Lindleystraße 12 | 60314 Frankfurt a.M. | Germany Phone +49 69 1730902 22 | Mobile +49 172 2650958 arnold.nip...@de-cix.net | www.de-cix.net<http://www.de-cix.net> Geschaeftsfuehrer Harald A. Summa and Sebastian Seifert Registergericht AG Koeln HRB 51135 Want to work at DE-CIX: https://de-cix.net/en/about-de-cix/careers DE-CIX 25th anniversary: Without you the Internet would not be the same! Join us on the journey at https://withoutyou.de-cix.net
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
Hi Andy and list, Andy Davidson writes: > HPH wrote: >> I do want to acknowledge that concerns were raised quite late in the >> process about the potential for capture or influence by the RIPE NCC. > [...] > Funny definition of 'potential'! Andy, if I take this literally, you are claiming that the NCC *were* capturing or influcencing the process. If you actually mean that, then I really want to see you substantiate that claim. If not, then please explain what you actually do mean by this. If however this is some sort of empty belligerent rhetorics (in lack of a better English word), then I kindly ask you to stop it---this is neither a debating club arguing about what end to crack open a boiled egg nor a game of Nomic. Considering how this entire chair selection run developed I am still surprised that insinuations like yours haven't driven people to stepping down from the various roles involved. We were close enough to this happening, which would have been quite detrimental to the RIPE community and its mission on behalf of society in general. What damage *has* happened however was that we've had the NomCom follow the defined and agreed-upon process to the letter, rather than making it their top priority to get the best possible result and in a timely manner. These debates slowed the entire process down significantly and caused a number of people serious extra work. It also caused a number of people some tremendous frustration, which in turn cost the community as a whole some significant part of its cumulative goodwill and enthusiasm. Additionally, there is a fair risk that political organizations outside the community may still leverage the way how this affair turned out as an indication that the community can't be trusted with the management of resources critical to the world at large and as such control over it should be transferred e.g. to the UN, ITU, ITU-T, some national government agencies or whatever. I'd rather not see that happen. Cheers, Benedikt [Assorted thanks and congratulations removed as they add nothing new to the discusssion. Next RIPE meeting we meet in person I'll get the culprits a beer instead:-)] -- Benedikt Stockebrand, Stepladder IT Training+Consulting Dipl.-Inform. http://www.stepladder-it.com/ Business Grade IPv6 --- Consulting, Training, Projects BIVBlog---Benedikt's IT Video Blog: http://www.stepladder-it.com/bivblog/
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
Hello Arnold and others. I keep hearing that there were some problems with the process, or that concerns were raised late into the process. But I wonder how the potential conflict of interest was not detected or taken seriously considering the independence of RIPE community from NCC was a well established principle. Was it not clear? Is this not perceived as a problem? In 2015, when I was a relatively newb at a ripe meeting, I presented some ideas about institutional accountability. The community members (rightly so) repeatedly corrected me when I kept conflating RIPE NCC and RIPE community. So to my mind the independence is a well established principle and has always been. To me, it was not clear whether NomCom perceived this situation as a problem since it had alternative candidates. What do we need to do to establish the circumstances under which the independence of community from NCC might be undermined? Do we need to come up with examples and criteria for application? Does NomCom need processes in place to prohibit employees to become community leaders fresh out of their NCC job? Is such a prohibition needed? Do we need criteria for employees to become community leaders? For example must have left RIPE NCC for this many months/years or have a job in a different org? This is not an issue specific to RIPE. We see it from time to time in other Internet orgs (sometimes in much more serious ways) But I think would be good to establish once and for all whether it’s a problem or not. Then if we think it is a problem we should find solutions. This is of course not to doubt the dedication of NomCom and people who volunteered for these positions. And I end this email by congratulating the new chair and vice chair. Would be also good to know how and whether they can address the concerns that were raised and how they can make sure community will remain independent from ncc. (I wanted to create another thread not to spoil this congratulatory thread, but I thought we might not even want to reopen the issue) On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 6:01 PM Arnold Nipper wrote: > Andy, > > On 02.07.2020 17:58, Andy Davidson wrote: > > > HPH wrote: > >> I do want to acknowledge that concerns were raised quite late in > >> the process about the potential for capture or influence by the > >> RIPE NCC. > > > > The Nomcom, chaired by the founder of the RIPE NCC has appointed a > > RIPE NCC staffer as the community Chair. This had to be done on an > > emergency basis because the outgoing Chair was now MD of the RIPE > > NCC. > > > > Funny definition of 'potential'! > > > > what about turning your frustration into passion and leading the process > working on revisited documents to address the issues encountered? > > > Good luck and cheers > Arnold > -- > Arnold Nipper > Chief Technology Evangelist and Co-Founder > > DE-CIX Management GmbH > Lindleystraße 12 | 60314 Frankfurt a.M. | Germany > Phone +49 69 1730902 22 | Mobile +49 172 2650958 > arnold.nip...@de-cix.net | www.de-cix.net > Geschaeftsfuehrer Harald A. Summa and Sebastian Seifert > Registergericht AG Koeln HRB 51135 > > > DE-CIX 25th anniversary: Without you the Internet would not be the same! > Join us on the journey at https://withoutyou.de-cix.net > > -- Farzaneh
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
On 2 Jul 2020, at 23:03, Arnold Nipper wrote: > congratulations and good luck! Thanks and more thanks!
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
Hi, most of it has been said, but some things are ok to be redundant. Thanks a lot to the NomCom volunteers for doing your job and being so open and transparent to our scrutiny. Thanks to all the candidates who ran and made sure we had an actual election taking place. And of course congrats to Mirjam and Niall. From where I stand we have a lot of work to do and you will spend a lot of time listening to and sorting out all the different voices within our community, but I totally think you're up to that. I hope you still have a good start! Cheers, Franziska
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
> On 2 Jul 2020, at 11:54, Daniel Karrenberg wrote: > The RIPE 2020 NomCom has selected Mirjam Kühne as RIPE Chair and Niall > O'Reilly as RIPE Vice Chair. What a fantastic result! Congratulations to both Mirjam and Niall.. both who have been present since the start of my Internet industry career.. Mirjam who conducted the first RIPE training course I attended all those years ago while I was dewy eyed in this industry.. and Niall who refused my application of melani.ie which I wanted for my wife back when the rules were much stricter and then exclaimed, “Oh, you are *that* Denesh!” when we finally met at a RIPE meeting. :-) Thank you also to Filiz and Nigel for standing and making it a tough job for the NomCom to select from an excellent pool of candidates. Warmest Regards Denesh
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
Dear Mirjam and dear Niall On 02.07.2020 13:21, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > > We are looking forward to working with all of you. > > Kind regards, > Mirjam Kühne and Niall O’Reilly > congratulations and good luck! Arnold -- Arnold Nipper Chief Technology Evangelist and Co-Founder DE-CIX Management GmbH Lindleystraße 12 | 60314 Frankfurt a.M. | Germany Phone +49 69 1730902 22 | Mobile +49 172 2650958 arnold.nip...@de-cix.net | www.de-cix.net Geschaeftsfuehrer Harald A. Summa and Sebastian Seifert Registergericht AG Koeln HRB 51135 Want to work at DE-CIX: https://de-cix.net/en/about-de-cix/careers DE-CIX 25th anniversary: Without you the Internet would not be the same! Join us on the journey at https://withoutyou.de-cix.net
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
Andy, On 02.07.2020 17:58, Andy Davidson wrote: > HPH wrote: >> I do want to acknowledge that concerns were raised quite late in >> the process about the potential for capture or influence by the >> RIPE NCC. > > The Nomcom, chaired by the founder of the RIPE NCC has appointed a > RIPE NCC staffer as the community Chair. This had to be done on an > emergency basis because the outgoing Chair was now MD of the RIPE > NCC. > > Funny definition of 'potential'! > what about turning your frustration into passion and leading the process working on revisited documents to address the issues encountered? Good luck and cheers Arnold -- Arnold Nipper Chief Technology Evangelist and Co-Founder DE-CIX Management GmbH Lindleystraße 12 | 60314 Frankfurt a.M. | Germany Phone +49 69 1730902 22 | Mobile +49 172 2650958 arnold.nip...@de-cix.net | www.de-cix.net Geschaeftsfuehrer Harald A. Summa and Sebastian Seifert Registergericht AG Koeln HRB 51135 DE-CIX 25th anniversary: Without you the Internet would not be the same! Join us on the journey at https://withoutyou.de-cix.net signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
Hi Andy, > The Nomcom, chaired by the founder of the RIPE NCC has appointed a RIPE NCC > staffer as the community Chair. This had to be done on an emergency basis > because the outgoing Chair was now MD of the RIPE NCC. The RIPE NCC is full of people who care deeply about our community and are part of it. It's not surprising that there is overlap. That you are trying to make this look like a conspiracy is very unbefitting of this community. I'm not even going to go into the misrepresentations you made above. That there are people who have made their passion their professional life only shows their dedication. Cheers, Sander
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
Thank you, Alex. We are working on a transition plan with Hans Petter and an agreement with the Executive Board that will maintain the independence of the RIPE Chair. We expect to have all the details sorted in the next few weeks. Kind Regards, Mirjam On 02/07/2020 15:04, Alex de Joode wrote: > On Thu, 02-07-2020 13h 21min, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > We both are delighted and honoured to have been chosen as the > new RIPE > Chair and Vice-Chair. > > Congratulations, both! Excellent choice. > > We have been carefully following the discussion about the > relationship > between the RIPE NCC and RIPE and the rôle which RIPE NCC staff > can and > should play within the RIPE community; one of our early > priorities will > be to start a review of these relationships. > > One of the 'issues' raised during this procedure was the 'right of > return' for Mirjam back to RIPE NCC and the possible effect this > could have on the (perceived) independence of the job. > > It would be very much appreciated if you could be transparent about > the 'right of return' agreement made (if any) and highlight possible > future conflict of interest when and if they do occur. > > -- > IDGARA | Alex de Joode | a...@idgara.nl | +31651108221 | Skype:adejoode >
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
> mirjam and nigel sigh. niall. need coffee.
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
dfk and the nomcom, well done. was probably not a lot of fun. thank you. mirjam and nigel, congratulations and support. you have work ahead. feliz and nigel, thank you for volunteering. appreciated. randy
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
Hi, HPH wrote: > I do want to acknowledge that concerns were raised quite late in the process > about the potential for > capture or influence by the RIPE NCC. The Nomcom, chaired by the founder of the RIPE NCC has appointed a RIPE NCC staffer as the community Chair. This had to be done on an emergency basis because the outgoing Chair was now MD of the RIPE NCC. Funny definition of 'potential'! Andy
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
Daniel, NomCom, Thank you for giving us an excellent chair and vice chair! And thank you for bringing this to closure despite all difficulties. Kudos to you for hard work and good results. Mirjam, Niall, My warmest congratulations, first and foremost to you, but also to all of us for having you. :-) Filiz, Nigel, Thank you very much for standing as candidates, and I know that you would do the job equally well. It cannot have been an easy choice for the NomCom, and I cannot really see any other selection criteria than a dice in this case. I would have liked to have all four of you! :-) Cheers, /Liman ripe-list@ripe.net 2020-07-02 12:54 [+0200]: > Dear colleagues, > The RIPE 2020 NomCom has selected Mirjam Kühne as RIPE Chair and Niall > O'Reilly as RIPE Vice Chair. After interviewing all nominees, hearing > substantial input from the community and a thorough discussion during > three selection meetings all voting members voted to select Mirjam as > Chair and eight out of ten voting members voted to select Niall as > Vice Chair. The selection was subsequently supported unanimously by > all members of the committee. We closely followed the process spelled > out in ripe-727 and ripe-728. We regularly paused to confirm that the > whole committee was comfortable with the process and its progress. > We were able to choose from a set of nominees who are all very capabl> and > well respected in the community. We expect that the community > would support any of them as their Chair. Our selection is in no way a > negative statement about the nominees we did not select. > We selected Mirjam because the input from the community clearly > favoured her. She is very widely regarded as someone who listens > carefully to everyone and who helps the community to find consensus > and move forward. We selected Niall because of the positive input we > received about his track record with the community. Mirjam and Niall > convinced us that they would work well as a team and complement each > other. > The RIPE NCC board has confirmed the candidates in accordance with the > process set out in ripe-727. The original time line called for a > transition from Hans Petter to Mirjam and Niall during RIPE 81 in > October. Hans Petter has since resigned as RIPE Chair because he > accepted to be the new managing director of the RIPE NCC; he is > currently also serving as RIPE Chair ad-interim. In this situation it > makes little sense to stick to the original time line. Therefore we > suggest that the outgoing and incoming Chairs arrange the transition > among themselves as soon as practicable. > We plan to publish the NomCom report about this first run of the > selection process in September before our term ends at RIPE 81. We > expect to make suggestions for improving the process and look forward > to the community discussing and deciding the process for the next > iteration. > We thank everyone who supported the NomCom, especially all nominees > and the many members of the community who made time to give us their > input. > Finally we call on the whole community to welcome and support Mirjam > and Niall in their new roles! > Daniel Karrenberg - Chair - RIPE 2020 Nomcom
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
On Thu, 02-07-2020 13h 21min, Niall O'Reilly wrote:> > Dear colleagues, > > We both are delighted and honoured to have been chosen as the new RIPE > Chair and Vice-Chair. > Congratulations, both! Excellent choice. > We have been carefully following the discussion about the relationship > between the RIPE NCC and RIPE and the rôle which RIPE NCC staff can and > should play within the RIPE community; one of our early priorities will > be to start a review of these relationships. > One of the 'issues' raised during this procedure was the 'right of return' for Mirjam back to RIPE NCC and the possible effect this could have on the (perceived) independence of the job. It would be very much appreciated if you could be transparent about the 'right of return' agreement made (if any) and highlight possible future conflict of interest when and if they do occur. > -- IDGARA | Alex de Joode | a...@idgara.nl | +31651108221 | Skype:adejoode
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
Dear colleagues, We both are delighted and honoured to have been chosen as the new RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair. We are eager to serve the RIPE Community and ready to listen to what the Community has to tell us. We want to start by acknowledging the effort and engagement of all who have worked to bring about this outcome. Many thanks to the RIPE NomCom and to the RIPE NCC Executive Board for carrying out this selection process for the first time in the history of the RIPE community. Many thanks to the community and to everyone who provided feedback. We feel honoured by the confidence you put in us and accept the challenge. We will do our best to meet your expectations. And many thanks to Hans Petter Holen who guided the community since RIPE 68 when he had the RIPE Chair role handed over to him by Rob Blokzijl who chaired the RIPE community since RIPE 1 in 1989. It will be hard to step into the shoes of those two chairs. Obviously we cannot do this without all of you and we will be seeking your input and guidance. We salute and draw inspiration from the commitment to service shown by Filiz Yilmaz and Nigel Titley in standing as nominees for the positions to which we have now been chosen. We are currently in discussion with Hans Petter about the transition to the new RIPE Chair team, and expect that the formal handover date will be during August. In the meantime, we shall be reading ourselves into our new rôles. We have been carefully following the discussion about the relationship between the RIPE NCC and RIPE and the rôle which RIPE NCC staff can and should play within the RIPE community; one of our early priorities will be to start a review of these relationships. We expect to have more to say about our other plans shortly. We are looking forward to working with all of you. Kind regards, Mirjam Kühne and Niall O’Reilly signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [ripe-list] RIPE Chairs Selected
I would like to congratulate Mirjam Kühne and Niall O’Reilly on their selection as our new RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair. Both Mirjam and Niall have a long history within RIPE; they are experienced chairs, they understand consensus, and they share the community's expectations in terms of transparency and openness. I am sure they will continue to serve the community well in their new roles. After Rob Blokzijl passed the torch to me in 2014, this is the first time we have selected our RIPE Chair (and now Vice-Chair) as a community. I want to thank everyone who participated in this process - by standing as nominees, volunteering to serve on the NomCom, providing feedback, or by helping to establish the process itself. I do want to acknowledge that concerns were raised quite late in the process about the potential for capture or influence by the RIPE NCC. However, I hope you will agree that the NomCom has chosen some good people here. It is worth remembering that we operate on “rough consensus”, which means that not everyone will fully agree with everything. That being the case, we have plenty of time to consider further improvements to the process before it starts again ahead of RIPE 91. There is also an opportunity to work on improving the process for selecting working group chairs and the community’s code of conduct, so I would like to encourage you to volunteer for these efforts under the guidance of our new leadership. So what happens next? I am eager to hand over my RIPE Chair responsibilities. Mirjam and Niall will need time to fit their new RIPE responsibilities alongside their existing ones. I don't expect this will take too long, and I intend to exit the role pass onhand overam committed to hand over the torch as soon as possible. I am happy that I no longer have to occupy both the RIPE Chair and RIPE NCC Managing Director roles. As the Managing Director, I am fully committed to giving the new leadership and the RIPE Community the support needed, just as my predecessors have supported me and my predecessor Rob Blokzijl. In the meantime, I hope you will join me in wishing our new RIPE Chair and Vice-Chair the very best... and with my RIPE NCC Managing Director's hat on, I would also like to thank the outgoing RIPE Chair for his contribution over the past six years. Kind regards Hans Petter Holen (Outgoing) RIPE Chair / RIPE NCC Managing Director On Thu, 2 Jul 2020 at 12:55, Daniel Karrenberg via ripe-list < ripe-list@ripe.net> wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > The RIPE 2020 NomCom has selected Mirjam Kühne as RIPE Chair and Niall > O'Reilly as RIPE Vice Chair. After interviewing all nominees, hearing > substantial input from the community and a thorough discussion during > three selection meetings all voting members voted to select Mirjam as > Chair and eight out of ten voting members voted to select Niall as Vice > Chair. The selection was subsequently supported unanimously by all > members of the committee. We closely followed the process spelled out in > ripe-727 and ripe-728. We regularly paused to confirm that the whole > committee was comfortable with the process and its progress. > > We were able to choose from a set of nominees who are all very capable > and well respected in the community. We expect that the community would > support any of them as their Chair. Our selection is in no way a > negative statement about the nominees we did not select. > > We selected Mirjam because the input from the community clearly favoured > her. She is very widely regarded as someone who listens carefully to > everyone and who helps the community to find consensus and move forward. > We selected Niall because of the positive input we received about his > track record with the community. Mirjam and Niall convinced us that they > would work well as a team and complement each other. > > The RIPE NCC board has confirmed the candidates in accordance with the > process set out in ripe-727. The original time line called for a > transition from Hans Petter to Mirjam and Niall during RIPE 81 in > October. Hans Petter has since resigned as RIPE Chair because he > accepted to be the new managing director of the RIPE NCC; he is > currently also serving as RIPE Chair ad-interim. In this situation it > makes little sense to stick to the original time line. Therefore we > suggest that the outgoing and incoming Chairs arrange the transition > among themselves as soon as practicable. > > We plan to publish the NomCom report about this first run of the > selection process in September before our term ends at RIPE 81. We > expect to make suggestions for improving the process and look forward to > the community discussing and deciding the process for the next > iteration. > > We thank everyone who supported the NomCom, especially all nominees and > the many members of the community who made time to give us their input. > > Finally we call on the whole community to welcome and support Mirjam and > Niall in their new roles! >
