[Scid-users] RChess

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

I would like to lead your attention to a chess database program I have
developed called RChess.

 

What I wanted to achieve is that I can develop an opening repertoire, which
is not stored in games. Also I wanted to have the information visible
whenever I have a  position on the board referenced by it. Chessbase does
not solve this I tried to go with SCID, but it was too slow for me. To solve
all the following goals the UI structure would have needed to be redesigned,
nothing what in SCID could be done.

 

So is RChess interesting for you?

 

I you like to play games => no

Play on server => no

Engine tournaments => no

Chess960 => not jet

Work on Chess => yes

Develop an own opening repertoire => yes

Analyze actual games => yes

Use an engine (local or in cloud) to help => yes

Correspondence chess => yes and no

 

When preparing for an opponent I wanted to optimize the information I can
see in a single view for the position 

on the board independent which game I have loaded:

 

* What does my opponent play, 

* How successful was my opponent

* What do players e.g. with rating 2400 or more play 

* How successful were these players in this position

* Did I analyze this position for my repertoire

* Which move did I plan to play in my repertoire

* What was the evaluation of an engine when I analyzed it
before

* Did the computer propose a move which is not in my
repertoire

* Did I wrote a remark for this position



When working on the own repertoire e.g. for the Slav with black you may
replace the results of your opponent by the results of Dreev. 

 

When I get a list of new games it is again the same procedure. RChess is
able to order the games depending on my repertoire. The most interesting
games come first. Then I load these game, jump to the move where it leaves
my repertoire and evaluate the new move like before.

 

The repertoire allows you to let an engine work on it and important train to
remember it.

 

The technology used:

 

Language: Java

License: Creative Commons
Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International Public License

Language: Java (Oracle 11, maybe OpenJDK 11)

OS system: Everywhere Java is supported (64bit only) 

Memory: 3GB with database of 8M games, more is better

CPU: Every core is welcome

 

When you are interested, have a look at: www.rchess.de
 

 

Have fun

 

Gerhard Lorscheid

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Re: [Scid-users] reply

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

problem is not what SCID should allow. You want to import commented games
from other formats and they allow it.
It is not so clear what the PGN-Standard says about comments. But its de
facto standard allows comments before and after moves. So when it is used in
games information is lost during import to SCID.

Gerd

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Jens Hoffmann [mailto:xmc...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. November 2015 21:08
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] reply


On 11/26/2015 08:20 PM, pwatt...@gmail.com wrote:
> Sure.  It allows for more natural language annotation.  Something like:
> 
> "The more direct 13.dxc5 dxc5 14.Qd3?! leaves the queen-side pawns 
> much more vulnerable."
> 


Okay, I got your point. From a developers point of perspective I am not much
in favour to implement this feature. The comment editor would need sort of
two text-input boxes and the notation must be somehow reorganized supporting
visually comments that are meant to be "natural language".


Scrolling through some chess books I can't even find a single example for
your use case. So it seems to be quite common to annotate behind a move, at
least in chess books.


My impression is that, yes, you gain more flexibility. Being able to note
down comments even in natural language would be nice. But that gain is not
worth the effort to reorganize the comment editor, the notation window and
adding more complexity to the backend.



Though I would be interested to see how other chess software integrates this
feature.




Jens


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Re: [Scid-users] reply

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello Fulvio,

you are right, pre move comments make sense only in certain situations. In a
normal case without variations you cannot even decide whether a comment is a
pre- or post move one.
But I can make my point more obvious:

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 {This is a bad move because there are a lot of
better alternatives} (3... e5 {is the most solid one} 4. Nf3) ({also
playable is} 3... c6 4. f4) 
{All these variations show that g6 is not the best. Let see how White can
make use of it.} 4. f4 *

All these comments make sense and lose their sense if they are  moved to a
different location.

So there are three events where a pre move comment can be useful and where
they can be identified easily:
- before move one
- at the beginning of a variation
- after the end of a variation.
Maybe I have missed another one...

Gerd



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Re: [Scid-users] Scid.eco

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

25 years ago when Chess Informator published the most important chess books
and Chessbase started there was no other way to find games than to have a
classification system like ECO or an opening tree like Chessbase. Today the
help pages of Chessbase tells us not to use them anymore and use the
position search mechanism instead. Performance of computers grew much faster
than the number of games in databases and so searching the games for a
position is much faster than searching in opening trees.
I am sure no Profi is using ECO anymore.

Gerd Lorscheid


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Gregor Cramer [mailto:rema...@gmx.net] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 19. April 2014 14:43
An: f...@libero.it; scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Scid.eco

Hi Fulvio,

 I've very dumb about the eco codes.

The ECO codes are not very useful, but some people are believing in this
code, especially the so called Profis, and so it seems that it is
unavoidable to display these unfortunate ECO codes.

 For example, the A26 code in the link you posted:
 every game that starts with 1. c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g61. c4 e5 2. 
 Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 g6 is ECO A26?

Every game starting with 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.d3 should
be assigned to A26, and also all games derived from this move sequence.

 And if so, what is the meaning of the second line 4. Bg2 Bg7 5.d3?

1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.d3 is one line, I think that your
email reader is not showing the line breaks correctly. Please have a look
into the file scid.eco. Note that a two-liner

A25 English: Closed, 5.d3
  1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7 5.d3 *

has to be read as one line (1. ECO code; 2. name of this line; 3.
'normalized' move order of this line; 4. result *).
 
 About the A00 - A06 code: how transpositions are managed?

That's the unclear thing in ECO. So ChessBase assigns 1.f4 e5 2.d4 to A02,
and 1.d4 e5 2.f4 to A40, but Scidb assigns both lines to A02. I think that
the handling of ChessBase is confusing, Scidb is going a different way. The
inventor of this ECO code, Sahovski Informator, does not give any rules
about the handling of move transpositions. Therefore it's important that the
user can overrule the automatic assignment of the code. Scid, and also
Scidb, allows this.

 To classify a game it's used the longest matching line, or it's 
 required to build the final positions of ECO lines and check if the 
 game reached that position?

This is unclear, ChessBase is using both methods, it depends on the line,
but Scidb is unexceptional using a position match (the move transposition
independent way). The current algorithm of Scid is a position match. Scid is
traversing the main line of the game backwards until a position match with
an ECO position occurs.

 I would like to have consistent ECO classification between scid and 
 scidb

Shane has invented his own ECO classifications like A00a, A00b, and so on,
but this is unique to Scid, and Scidb does not use this. Scidb is using a
private ECO classification table. Furthermore Scidb's handling is to search
for the ECO forward (not backward), because the classification will be used
for the position search acceleration, a backward search is not possible in
this case. And currently I'm overworking the ECO table in a way that a
forward search will find all move transpositions (played in practice). So I
think that a 100% match between Scid and Scidb about the ECO classification
is not possible. But I think that it should be possible to use common names
for the chess variants, for example Scidb is using Zukertort Opening
for the opening 1.Nf3, not Reti, because the Reti system is the move
order 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4. But the name handling in Scidb is not yet the last
word, currently a volunteer is working on Scidb's ECO table, his goal is
that Scidb will use the best known names for each named variation. But
this task is time confusing, I don't think that he will finish before end of
year.

 (and possibibly with other chess open source software too)

And ChessBase is going his own (confusing) way.

 could you write an email to chess informant asking for clarifications?

Not necessary, the classification of 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 g6 4.Bg2 Bg7
5.d3
to A26 is clear - see
http://www.chessinformant.rs/content/eco/eco_a/eco_a2.html.
And the decision about the move transposition handling is private to every
application. In fact the ECO code of Chess Informant is a private invention
of the company Sahovski Informator, but everybody is using this code for any
reason. (In Scidb it is planned to provide information which is more related
to the well known chess variants - like Spanish: Berlin Defence - and the
ECO code is only an unavoidable extra information.)

Hope that this information is useful.
Happy Easter,
Gregor


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Re: [Scid-users] Scid.eco

[Gerd Lorscheid]

The opening is determined by playing a game backward. The first classified
position found in the game determines the opening. For something usable you
need probably  1000 of these positions.

Nf3 d5 c4 is not “Reti”, if for example white plays d4 somewhere in the next
moves.

 

Gerd 

 

Von: Ben St-Pierre [mailto:benbon...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 19. April 2014 16:17
An: Scid Users List
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Scid.eco

 

 Zukertort Opening for the opening 1.Nf3, not Reti, because the Reti
system is the move order 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4.

I thought Zukertort was 1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 (à la Kramnik) , while Réti was 1.
Nf3 d5 2. c4, the Nimzo-Larsen could be obtained through 1. Nf3 and 2. b3.
Since 1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 leads to the English opening, 2. b4 is an Orangoutang
and 1.Nf3 c5 2. e4 is a Sicilian, I'd say that 1. Nf3 is simply 1. Nf3.  

A related and interesting quandary is the King's Indian attack.  Does it go
in the French defense?



 

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Re: [Scid-users] Testing

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello Fulvio,

yes I remembered working on the stuff, but I was not the one stopping as
soon as my personal goals were fulfilled.
To make sure what I said:
- I would like to have a smart list control: Now thank you there is one but
it is a singleton. Only once on the screen.
- I do not want to switch controls to get different views but to have them
on the screen at the same time.
- Filters should be related not to a db like today but to a list view.
Once you have this a user can configure a simple standard UI or a one as
complex as the resources of the system allow.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Fulvio [mailto:f...@libero.it] 
Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Januar 2013 10:33
An: 'Scid Users List'
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Testing

Gerd Lorscheid wrote:


 So when looking for openings, or an opponent I would like to have at 
 the same time working in real time:

I think Gerd already know, especially considering that he wrote part of the
code that makes it possible, but it is worth mentioning for inexperienced
users that these things are already possible in scid (and maybe in scidvspc
and scidb too?)


Let's say that we will play against Kasparov and we have a large database
with all games (including our own)

 -  a main board with the actual position/game

 -  the notation of the moves of the game

 -  a game list with the games of your opponent with this 
 position (including tree view)


- Open Scid and the large database
- Filter the database for Kasparov's games (Search - Header)
- Using the Database Switcher window copy the games to clipbase (drag) and
make clipbase the active database.
- Open the Tree Window (Ctrl + T)
- Open the Best Tree Games window (left-bottom button in the Tree Window)

 -  a tree view with the overall score of all moves in this 
 position

- Use the Database Switcher window to make the large database the active
one
- Open the Tree Window (Ctrl + T)

 -  a game list of the top games of this position

- Open the Best Tree Games window (left-bottom button in the Tree Window)

 -  a list of my games with this position (including tree view)

- Filter the database to include only your games (Search - Header)
- Uncheck all games into the Tree window (check/uncheck the all games
button to cycle between games and stats for all the games in the database or
only your games)

 -  engine evaluation

- Start engine 1 (F2)

 Additional the possibility to load and replay (with engine) any of 
 this games in a separate window,

This is not possible in Scid.
The closest thing is loading games with double click and use the games
navigation buttons (the arrows at the right end of the toolbar over the
board) to go back and forth between the games.

 mark games as deleted at every place, sort each of these game lists 
 quickly for any column.

Double click a column header to sort results in a Best Tree Games 
window; if you like to add further sorting criteria single-click over
another column header.


For sure is a bit messy and counter-intuitive, so this a case where a 
good tutorial video Preparing to play against an opponent will be very 
useful for new users (and starting chess players) in my opinion.
Bye,
Fulvio




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Re: [Scid-users] Testing

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

I have no problem if the initial loading time of a large database takes time
as long as I can then work efficiently. There is no difference to Chessbase
where the first open of the tree takes time. But with Chessbase the tree
data sometimes disappears and you have to restart to get it back.

One note to all in one databases. They contain lots of useless data, but the
advantage is that you have to maintain only this one. It is easier to define
once a filter to select the Carlsen games or GM-games and apply it to a tree
view before the resulting games are filtered by the current position.  That
is why I like the idea of  cascading filters per list view.

Gerd 

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Gregor Cramer [mailto:gcra...@gmx.net] 
Gesendet: Freitag, 4. Januar 2013 15:38
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Testing

Hello,

 I am quite surprised!  I use Scid with absolutely no problems with a 
 database (the big one from Opening Master) of 6+ million games!  I 
 admit that my machine is a strong one (8 core at 3.0Ghz, 16Ghz RAM, 
 fast busses, Raid 0, Ubuntu 12.04), but even so, that statement 
 surprises me.  If someone else had said that, I would have accused him 
 of

Why I wrote that Scid/Scidb is not designed for huge bases:

Opening a huge database takes a lot of time (ChessBase is lightning-fast in
opening huge databases). With huge databases the opening tree takes a lot of
time with the first moves. Of course, some users may not be disturbed by
this fact. And of course the speed depends on the disk speed, I don't have
super-fast disks. The limit of 1.5 million games is my own impression,
everybody has his own impression. At least, it is of course possible to work
with huge databases without problems (but that's no fun for me).

By the way, this (own) limitation of 1.5 million games is not a real
limitation for me, all my databases are in general smaller.

 Not that I know which is correct, but did you mean THE devloper, or 
 the principal developer?

Scidb has currently only one developer.

Gregor

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Re: [Scid-users] Testing

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

I do not think that bad documentation is the major problem of scid. I cannot
remember looking into documentation of Chessbase.
Problem with scid is that it implements thousands of features all of them
working sometimes and somehow and sharing some code. There is no clear
concept anywhere. The second problem is that everybody implements in the
product what he likes to have and does not care about the features he is not
using. This does not work without breaking something else. These days agile
programming is a hype, but I think these guys have something else in mind.
At the beginning I was optimistic and tried not to develop new features but
just to get some important ones running like filtering. I am developing
software 40 hours a week and decided that I do not need to have something
like this in the evening.
So I never got the confidence to move my main data source from Chessbase to
Scid and now I am fully back to Chessbase. The implementation of their
algorithms is ridiculous bad, but with the help of the cbh-parser of scidb I
could develop my tools and computers are very fast today.
I do not see a future for scid, if not some developers find together to
agree on a concept and to implement it together. Maybe on this way it is an
idea to split the program into multiple serving different purposes and
sharing common base functionality. When a user plays in the internet he does
not work on opening theory or prepare for a game against a specific
opponent. The same for somebody who likes to make engine competitions. All
tools can still share the same stable database format routines. But it will
be easier to focus on the purpose of each of these tools.
The developer of scidb came to the same conclusion but starting from scratch
is also no good idea. Scidb seems to develop slowly but also in a direction
I am not interested in. No alternative for Chessbase, no functionality to
manage large databases and to allow efficient usage of its content.

Gerd



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Ben St-Pierre [mailto:benbon...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. Januar 2013 22:20
An: f...@libero.it
Cc: Scid Users List
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Testing

Videos would be good.

Online docs too.

And if we could dream, an F1 command that would work like Textmate would be
great too!

(Textmate helps you find the command you want in the menu list.)

There is nothing concurrent about all this.  We just need to get things
organized, or leave them disorganized in a way that people can enjoy
contributing.

***

I'm willing to make Scid Doc my next pet project, even if my programming
gurus keep telling me this leads to a dead end.

I gather that it would be better to invest my time doing that than trying to
tame Internet Trolls.

***

The kicks-ass.org part was there because it's a free ad-on.  I admit it was
crass.

I'm open for any suggestion. scid.info is open, but someone said it was a
crappy name.

I'll try to find back everything that was written on that subject a few
years ago.

For now, I could add a scid folder to bstp.ca or automagi.ca or oueb.ca or
benoitstpierre.info





On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 4:03 PM, f...@libero.it f...@libero.it wrote:
 Hi everyone and happy new year!
 I'm surprised to see such a burst of emails after a lot of time!

 About docs, are you aware of scid's tutorial videos on youtube?
 Such as:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwdkJg9jrIo
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_ZPltcSyjo
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCjFQmaLTDo

 I know that exist a YouTube Partner Program that pays for views (i 
 don't know the details or how much it pays).
 So maybe someone would like to record video of chess lessons/scid's 
 tutorials killing two birds with one stone?

 Best wishes,
 Fulvio

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Re: [Scid-users] Testing

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

 

just take this example.

When I started with scid I could set up a filter for the black games of
Kasparov.  Once I have opened a tree view on the same base a move of the
board did replace this Kasparov filter by the tree filter. This is what I
mean. OK, you could set it up again - until you do the next move on the
board... One implementation was shared by two features so that they never
will work together.

 

So when looking for openings, or an opponent I would like to have at the
same time working in real time:

-  a main board with the actual position/game

-  the notation of the moves of the game

-  a game list with the games of your opponent with this position
(including tree view)

-  a tree view with the overall score of all moves in this position

-  a game list of the top games of this position

-  a list of my games with this position (including tree view)

-  engine evaluation

Additional the possibility to load and replay (with engine) any of this
games in a separate window, mark games as deleted at every place, sort each
of these game lists quickly for any column. As Windows (and non-workspace)
user it would be nice to have everything docked and switchable in and out.
All parts should depend on the position of the main board and  not on what
happens elsewhere. 

Add some database maintenance functions for databases, efficient duplicate
searching and the database user is completely happy. 

 

I tried to implement cascading filters instead of a single overwriting
filter. I would have liked then to have multiple instances of a generic
scalable list window each based on its private cascading filters. Then scid
would  come close to my scenario. But there was no chance to find people
with the same interest.

 

So you can see that there is no overlap of my interests with the FICS game
players or engine gamers except some functionality in the backend. They may
like a complete different UI instead.

 

Chessbase has improved in the last releases from a complete static layout.
Initially you could not see the moves of the game, if you have opened a tree
view. No multiple trees even today. If you prepare for an opponent the tree
is reserved for his games, still no chance to see an overall statistic at
the same time. But what is there works as expected. Tree view on a large
database stored on an SSD is acceptable now.

 

What I saw last from Scidb there was no database maintenance, no filtering,
no trees. Instead FICS and PDF-Export seem to be a goal. 

 

Gerd

 

 

Von: Alan Whiteman [mailto:a.c.white...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 3. Januar 2013 23:40
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Cc: 'Scid Users List'
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Testing

 

 

On 01/03/13 14:27, Gerd Lorscheid wrote:

[ ... ] No alternative for Chessbase, no functionality to
manage large databases and to allow efficient usage of its content.


This is a most strange sentiment. scidvspc works perfect with a 5,000,000
game database- fairly fast. As far as I can tell, the program does a great
job with searches and is feature rich. Some people claim that it does some
functions even better than Chessbase.

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Re: [Scid-users] Search within search results

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

I had a look into my source. There is no initDbFilter called in sc_search of
my code and Bens usecase works with my version. I do not know who did put it
there (I hope not me...). It is definitely wrong and can simply be removed. 
Looking to the history shows that originally initDbFilter was used to
allocate the dbFilter, if not yet happened. But it did not change an
existing one. Now it only initializes the filter, because memory is handled
completely inside of the filter object. So before initDbFilter was necessary
at sc_search, no it is wrong...
As I have no rights in git

Regards, Gerd
 

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Fulvio [mailto:f...@libero.it] 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 17. November 2011 12:09
An: Ben Hague
Cc: SCIDUsers
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Search within search results

Ben Hague wrote:
 Hi,
 I commonly search within search results, e.g. search for a player, and
then search for games they've played with a particular opening. This no
longer works (with git code), as the second search ignores the And option
and searches the whole database. This seems to be because of the
initDbFilter(db); line within the sc_search function in the tkscid.cpp file
in the src directory. I know there's been quite a bit of work done on
searches recently, is this a known byproduct?

   
No, thanks for signaling the bug.

In the git version I wrote code to address this common use case, using the
tree window, and i'd like to know if you find it more user friendly or not.
1) Search for a player (usually an opponent)
2) Open the tree window and the best games window
3) In the tree window there is a check button all games: if checked, games
and stats include all the database; if not, results include only the games
of the searched player.

I usually start with the all games unchecked, to see the openings and the
lines played.
When i found a position that was never played or a line that i consider
interesting i check the all games and take a look at how the strongest
players have played that position in the most recent games.

Naturally, the AND in the search function is more flexible and must be
fixed.
Bye,
Fulvio



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Re: [Scid-users] Bugreport Board Search

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

 

I found probably the problem:

 

In the method 

 

int sc_search_board (ClientData cd, Tcl_Interp * ti, int argc, 
const char ** argv)

 

the line 

 

updateMainFilter( db);

 

needs to be added in at the end before 

 

   if (searchInRefBase ) {

 currentBase = oldCurrentBase;

 db = (dbList[currentBase]);

  }  



   return TCL_OK;

   }

 

This never harms and does what sometimes need to be done. As I have no access 
somebody else needs to check this in.

 

Gerd

 

 

 

Von: gerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de [mailto:gerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de] 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Oktober 2011 13:53
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Cc: 'Steven'; 'Philipp Enöckl'; 'Scid Users List'
Betreff: Re: Re: [Scid-users] Bugreport Board Search

 

Hello,

 

I cannot reproduce the problem. What I did 

 

- Put a position on the board

- Call search bz position, specify another base, enable the search in this db, 
keep other options to default and click ok

- The referenced base is searched and its filter is adjusted.

 

Is this what has been done?

 

There is another usecase to do the same:

- Open tree window for specified base. Then the search is done on the fly and 
can be disabled by a button at its botton.

- Open a result window from there and you have the matching games. You can sort 
them, replay them and load them to the main window.

 

Gerd

 

 

 

 

- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -
Von: Gerd Lorscheid
Gesendet: 26.10.11 20:31 Uhr
An: 'Steven', 'Philipp Enöckl'
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Bugreport Board Search

I will have a look, but this may take some time, as I am busy at the moment. 

Gerd 


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- 
Von: Steven [mailto:stevena...@yahoo.com] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 19:26 
An: Philipp Enöckl 
Cc: Scid Users List 
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Bugreport Board Search 


I can reproduce this bug. 

Gerd did some heavy stuff with the filter, but i haven't tried to debug 
SCID's code, so i'm not sure of the cause. Perhaps it's something trivial. 
I think i even had a crash messing around with this, but can't easily 
reproduce. 

How i missed this feature in Scid vs. PC i don't know, but i've added it now 
(in subversion) and it's quite handy too, so cheers. 

Steve 


 From: Philipp Enöckl philipp.enoe...@gmail.com 
 Subject: [Scid-users] Bugreport Board Search 
 To: Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
 Received: Tuesday, 25 October, 2011, 7:54 PM 
 Hi, my scid has a new issue. 
 
 Whenever i do a board search within one database, 
 everything works out 
 fine. However, when i do a Board search - Search in 
 reference 
 database scid searches nicely trough, tells me, how many 
 games it has 
 found with this position, but it is impossible to see those 
 games, 
 because there is no filter set in the database switcher. 
 
 Hope, this is reproducible, this happens with the newest 
 version on git. 
 
 Greets, 
 Philipp 
 
 
 
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Re: [Scid-users] Bugreport Board Search

[Gerd Lorscheid]

I will have a look, but this may take some time, as I am busy at the moment.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Steven [mailto:stevena...@yahoo.com] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 19:26
An: Philipp Enöckl
Cc: Scid Users List
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Bugreport Board Search


I can reproduce this bug.

Gerd did some heavy stuff with the filter, but i haven't tried to debug
SCID's code, so i'm not sure of the cause. Perhaps it's something trivial.
I think i even had a crash messing around with this, but can't easily
reproduce.

How i missed this feature in Scid vs. PC i don't know, but i've added it now
(in subversion) and it's quite handy too, so cheers.

Steve


 From: Philipp Enöckl philipp.enoe...@gmail.com
 Subject: [Scid-users] Bugreport Board Search
 To: Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 Received: Tuesday, 25 October, 2011, 7:54 PM
 Hi, my scid has a new issue.
 
 Whenever i do a board search within one database,
 everything works out 
 fine. However, when i do a Board search - Search in
 reference 
 database scid searches nicely trough, tells me, how many
 games it has 
 found with this position, but it is impossible to see those
 games, 
 because there is no filter set in the database switcher.
 
 Hope, this is reproducible, this happens with the newest
 version on git.
 
 Greets,
 Philipp
 


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Re: [Scid-users] Recent changes to Sort Database make sorting volatile.

[Gerd Lorscheid]

 Hello,

I assume you refer to the game list window. If you instead mean the best 
games window rewritten by Fulvio, it is another story.
Before these changes and also now you could sort only using the 
mantenance window. This does a physical resort of the base. No way back 
to the original order.
If you sort a base from the game list window it is done in memory like a 
filter. The result is visible only in this window, the index of a game 
remains and the result is lost after stopping Scid. What you can do 
after sorting is to click on store. It saves an index to the disk. Next 
time you just click on sort and then on load and zou get back the sorted 
base with two clicks. Note that you have to sort and store again after 
you have changed the base.

There are plans to extend the control used for the best games also for 
the game list window. So I would prefer to leave it as it is for the 
moment until its future is defined.

Gerd



Am 29.07.2011 4:39, schrieb antonio:
 These new changes, about two months old, are great, much more flexible
 than the old sorting routine. However, when you exit Scid the database
 and reopen it, you get the original sorting.

 When you open a Database, the column Number in the Game List is
 correlative (1...n). Sort it, an it is no longer correlative.

 Although I usually compile Scid, right now I'm using stock Debian
 Unstable, so I have ruled out a misconfiguration. Is there a way to save
 the database in the new order shown in the Game List, after you have
 sorted it?

 Greetings,



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Re: [Scid-users] New Best tree games window

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello Steven,

I could reproduce your bug report. Thank you for your note. I thought I had 
fixed this one before, so I have to check what goes wrong. The change was not a 
small one so it is not unexpected if there are still bugs in use cases, which 
have no use...

There is a tradeoff between incremental and full sort. Incremental sort gives 
you quickly the first 50, but please do not scroll to the bottom..., do not use 
the search features provided by the game list. On the other side sorting the 
complete base takes 2-20 seconds for a large base, but then you have the same 
performance as before. I like very much sorting by number of variations and 
then average Elo. So I do it once and save it to disk. Next time I click sort, 
then load and the base is sorted. 

If I compare the old game list widget and the new one I still have some points:

The old one has the scroll bar at the bottom. Looks strange, but normally you 
have this window at the bottom of the screen with full width of the monitor and 
it shows maybe 10 games. In this environment your are not able to scroll in 
large bases if the scroll bar is at the side.

Fulvio has implemented an ad hoc sorting by selecting columns. This can be done 
only with incremental search. So I select variation count and it does an 
incremental of the first 50 games, then I select average EL0 and it does it 
again. If I now have in the context menu an option to trigger a full sort and 
then to store the result to disk this would be nice and it would have the full 
functionality of my sort widget. 

Not being a talented UI developer I just adapted the existing game list window 
and reused the idea of the sort widget in the maintenance window. I cannot say 
that I am happy with the result, but I think the full and persistent sort 
should still be a possible option.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Steven [mailto:stevena...@yahoo.com] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Juni 2011 01:09
An: f...@libero.it
Cc: Gerd; Scid Users List
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] New Best tree games window

Just a silly case scenario that causes the new code to crash. 
Open Icofy or junkbase [Junkbase has unmatched braces (amongst other bad stuff) 
in player names, but Icofy isnt too bad i think]. Open Gamelist - Press Sort 
- 
Don't add any criteria, and press Sort. Scid crashes. And Fulvio's switcher 
gamelist also performs funny when moving the slider through junkbase - but it's 
ok on the huge Icofy.


One thing about Gerd's new gamelist sort, from a design perspective which makes 
me hesitate to use it: Say one has a huge DB, and we filter games Joe Blog. 
We 
might have 50 games which we'd like to sort by length. So perform a gamelist 
sort by length (and sorry - but the current sort widget isn't very good), but 
we 
have to WAIT while the WHOLE base is sorted, when all we really want is to sort 
50 GAMES.  Hmmm.

Fulvio wrote:

 I think i should remove the gamelist from db switcher window:  is this 
correct?

Maybe since the code is at such an experimental stage , +1 -  a good time to 
write a new gamelist widget 


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Re: [Scid-users] New Best tree games window

[Gerd Lorscheid]

 BTW: your addition of best games to the database
 switcher.  I'm not sure that this is sensible all the
 time. I admit that I use the switcher just for what its
 name says: switching databases. For this reason I'd like
 to have a _small_ window. Usually it's 2x2 bases not
 larger.

 Please notice that the games list in db switcher window
 is different from the one into best games window.

 Yes. Still, what I want to point out is that it is probably
 not the perfect place at least if it has to be there and is
 not optional.

 This placement goes a bit in the direction of, I think,
 Gerds suggestion to move db switching functionality to the
 games list. Though I am not sure myself that it belongs
 there either (I prefer dedicated windows instead of
 everything crowded in one place kind of GUI) at least I'd
 find it very helpful that the db switcher can be kept a
 small window. The Games List by definition is a at least
 wide window due to the ammount of data to show there by
 default.

 Thus, if the feedback is to unify games list and db
 switcher, I'd vote for having db switching in the games list
 as an option and keep db switcher small.

 The idea that i wanted to show is a sort of database
 window where typical operations (load/copy/search games)
 can be perfomed all in one place.  I think that the ideas
 and opinion of scid users can be very useful to find the
 optimal solution.

 Thats why I placed my vote ;)

There is also another small but important difference between the two
options. In Fulvio's implementation changing the database in the switcher
changes the games in his list but also the active game on the board. My idea
was to allow to have a look to the games of another base without changing
the game on the board. So I do not want to to move db switching
functionality to the games list. Only to switch the db of the game list.
 
-

 I understand your point and i agree with you, however there are some
technical difficulties to a fully general purpose gameslist window:
 1) In fact glist windows are independent and there are no problems with
multiple instances.
 However glist.create need a layout string to save differents column layout
and sort criteria.
 Now this is automatic: best games and db switcher can have they different
column order and sort criteria.
 With only one general purpose gameslist window the user will have to
manually select the preferred layout each time.
 2) You need to decide when to call glist.update Actually this is a mess:
for example i found out that there are 71 reference to
::windows::gamelist::Refresh.
 For a general purpose gameslist we need to write some sort of event based
system for filters: glist window register itself to the correspondent filter
and the filter notify the registered windows when it changes.

 I understand the advantages of a general purpose gameslist window, for
example it will be useful sometimes to have two database games list opened
at the same time.
 However i don't know if it's worth the effort.
 I will be in spain the next week, i think we can wait to hear the opinions
of scid users about this.

From this 71 references around 40 are not necessary and duplicates. The
advantage is to have them, where they are necessary. They are the perfect
hook. Registering multiple windows for changes had already been done with
the old best game windows. So I think this can work in a similar way. So
there is no need of implementing a new logic. 

Gerd




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Re: [Scid-users] New Best tree games window

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

I just did a first test of the new code. I like the new window. It looks
like actual technology and not something from the last century. I hope
somebody will follow and give the tree window the same format.
I have some notes:
When you have a tree window open, which is disabled, and you click on the
best games scid crashes. It is no real use case, but when it happens a user
may lose data.
I have some problems with what you did with the game switcher window. The
best games window I can open when I like, but the games in the switcher are
always open. It leaves for its old content only one line, so if I have more
than three bases open, I have to scroll to find a base. This is annoying. So
it may be an idea to add an option in the context menu of the switcher
whether to show the game list or not and keep this info in the options. Also
the database part should be resizable for users working with many bases.
Now Scid is for some seconds after startup not accessible, I do not know
what it is doing, because there is no open database yet. 
I will check the new stuff in more detail in the next week.

Best Regards

Gerd



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: f...@libero.it [mailto:f...@libero.it] 
Gesendet: Freitag, 17. Juni 2011 15:44
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: [Scid-users] New Best tree games window

I pushed into the git repository the code for the new dockable best tree 
games window:
- Show all the results instead of the best ones only.
- Calculate an automatic interest rating.
- Allows to sort results by different multiple criteria, thanks to Gerd's 
sortcache (right click over a column header).
- Saves current sorting criteria in options.dat (default sorting is rating-,

date-).
- Customizable layout using drag and drop, saved in options.dat

As proof of concept i pushed a few lines patch that add the games list to 
Database switcher windows too.

The direct link to download the full code is:
http://bit.ly/mhdXUc


Typical workflows:
1) Looking at chess games
- Open your reference database
- Open the header search (ctrl+shift+H) and set the filter to show only the 
games of a particular event (i.e last year 4th Kings)
- Open the database switcher (ctrl+D): it will show all the games of that 
event
- Sort result ascending by date (right click over the Date header - sort
- 
New 1)
- Sort same date games by white name (right click over the White header -

sort - Add 2)
- Load the first game
- Open the Tree window (ctrl+T)
- Open the Best tree games window (first button on the bottom-left)
- Adjust windows layout (for example right click over Best Tree Games 1: 
- 
Move to bottom. I usually keep the board on the left, tree window right-top,

best games window right-bottom).
- Adjust column layout of Best Tree Games windows with drag and drop or
with 
right click over a column header- add/remove
- When board changes the Tree and Best tree games will update to show
all 
the games matching the current position.
- Best tree games will show the most interesting games. Sorting can be 
changed (for example by average elo, date) and right-click over a game
allows 
to load/browse/merge.
- Go back to database switcher and load the next game (notice that results
in 
the database switcher are *not* effected by the current board position).

2) Preparing for an opponent
- Open your reference database.
- Open the header search (ctrl+shift+h) and set the filter to show only the 
games of your opponent
- Open the Tree window (ctrl+T)
- Open the Best tree games window (first button on the bottom-left)
- Sort criteria and column layout are restored from previous session.
- In the Tree window uncheck the all games button: this will show only 
stats and games of your opponent
- Open your study database and create a new game
- Making moves on the board will update the results in the Best tree games

window where right-click allows to load/browse/merge a game.
- If you reach a position never played by your future opponent checking the 
all games button in the Tree window will show any game in your database 
matching the current board position.

As usual, feedbacks are welcome.
Bye,
Fulvio


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Re: [Scid-users] Sorting by variations patch

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

we should distinguish two different points:
1. In the maintenance window there is today in 4.3 the option to sort a base.
   If it breaks e.g. bookmarks there should be a warning before it executs.
   In my patch I just added there two additional options for sorting. Instead 
   of sorting for ECO and rating proposed there, sorting for Comments and 
   Rating is an interesting option.
2. Scid is missing completely any sorting functionality (except the hardcoded 
   in the undockable best games window). I would like to see the most 
interesting
   games first. If there are some with comments then these, otherwise the ones
   with best rating etc. This is only one possible sorting usecase, most recent 
   games is another. Important is: It cannot be achieved with filters.

I will continue to work on the dynamic sorting of the game list window, which 
will 
not change the database.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Alexander Wagner [mailto:a.wag...@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de] 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 24. Februar 2011 21:04
An: Fulvio
Cc: Scid Users List; Gerd Lorscheid
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Sorting by variations patch

On 02/22/11 16:03, Fulvio wrote:

Hi!

 I like to see the most interesting ( == commented) games to replay at
 the top of the gamelist window when the tree filter is enabled. I
 cannot sort the columns, but now I can sort the database. This comes
 in handy.

 I know that everyone loves his own code, but doesn't this maybe suggest
 that you are on the wrong path?
 I still don't understand why you prefer the game list over the best
 games: we can easily add the features that you miss to the new best
 games widget (BTW, had you tried it and noticed that 'most interesting'
 games come first?)

I admit to agree with Fulvio for the use case mentioned. To just get 
the interesting games in a given position on top of the list, IMHO the 
best games is the way to go. I also very much like Fulvios earlier 
suggestion to improve Scids ability to detect the most relevant games of 
this list for this very use case. Probably, only using average elo of 
the opponents is not the best way and more criteria might be considered. 
E.g. the mentioned fact that a game is commented and annotated, or that 
a given game is flagged might well make up for some average elo points.

However, we also recently had the request for a sorting function of the 
games list as such and this might come in handy in some situations, 
indeed. So, Gerd if you have some time to work on this I think it is 
valuable. And if one criterion to sort would be annotated games, well. 
Why not.

BTW: I think you could already achieve what you have in mind by setting 
the filter for Annotated games in the header search (one of the last 
patches you sent me and which is included in 4.3) and then just call 
best games.

cu
Alexander


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Re: [Scid-users] Sorting by variations patch

[gerd . lorscheid]

Hello Fulvio,
it is not that easy if I assume right that you want to have it starting from 
the game 20 of the sorted database. Then you need to sort the whole base first. 
This takes around 5 to 30 seconds for a large base. Is the user prepared to 
wait for this? So we need to discuss the usecases. Next question is how do you 
want to sort for comments first and elo as second criteria.
What I have intended with the game list sorting is that the user sorts at the 
beginning of his session and then starts using the results. There a longer 
waiting time is acceptable and if he is using a tree lateron the games in the 
gamelist will always follow his sorting criteria.
Gerd

- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -
Von: Fulvio
Gesendet: 25.02.11 15:59 Uhr
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Betreff: Re: AW: [Scid-users] Sorting by variations patch

Gerd Lorscheid wrote: 
 
 I will continue to work on the dynamic sorting of the game list window, which 
 will 
 not change the database. 
 
 

May I ask for an interface like this? 

std::vectorint Index::getGamelist (uint start, uint max_count, const 
Filter* filter = 0, const std::string sort = g+); 

so that: 
db-idx-getGamelist(20, 10); 
returns 10 games starting from the 20th (ordered by game number. 
Ignoring filters) 

db-idx-getGamelist(20, 10, W-); 
returns 10 games starting from the 20th (ordered descending by White 
Elo. Ignoring filters) 

db-idx-getGamelist(20, 10, db-dbFilter, y+); 
returns 10 games starting from the 20th (ordered ascending by year. Only 
games in dbFilter will be considered) 

db-idx-getGamelist(20, 10, db-treeFilter, i-); 
returns 10 games starting from the 20th (ordered desc by interest. 
Only games in treeFilter, i.e. that match the current position, will be 
considered) 

the result vector can be used like this: 
for (int i = 0; i  res.size(); i++) { 
IndexEntry* ie = db-idx-FetchEntry (res[i]); 
ie-PrintGameInfo (...); 
} 

Thanks, 
Fulvio 


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Re: [Scid-users] Sorting by variations patch

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello

First to the chess question. I think there are  no optimal values for 
interesting games. When I look the first time for a new system I am 
first interested in commented games. They may be opening surveys, with 
short main variation, no rating etc. Next are the games of the stronget 
players. When I know a system I am interested in the most recent games. 
Basicely what you do is building a complex sorting criteria as there are 
many simple ones defined for the database sorting today. So is it a good 
idea to have one window in the product where a user can define a sorting 
criteria based on simple and more complex elements like yours? The user 
can use it to sort bases, the game list or define what are the best 
games. And then to have one implementation class, which compares two 
games based on a criteria in a efficient way including smart caching 
when useful?


Now ro the best games sorting: OK, now I understand. As long as max_size 
is small compared to the size of the base, you have a linear search time 
and may be able to do this on the fly. If somebody would page down and 
down in the initial position it would become slower and slower, but this 
is no use case. You map only game properties, which can be mapped 
lossless to a number (no player names or other strings). This allows to 
reduce comparing games to comparing numbers. So you can live without 
caching between calls.
The algorithm needed for the gamelist requires to sort first the whole 
db and cache the result in a transposition table. Then any access is 
very fast, even scrolling is possible.
So if we want to combine both we need a smart transposition class. It 
has a interface to retrieve the first n games based on a smart sorting 
cache class, then the next n etc. It again calculates what is needed and 
caches results to improve second access.


The price of this will be few hundert Mbytes memory for a 5.000.000 
database, but the result would be nice. So is this a problem?


One last note: My experience showed me that in such areas the impact of 
the language (e.g. std containers) can be ignored. The algorithm counts.


Gerd


Am 25.02.2011 8:09, schrieb f...@libero.it:


I had in mind something like this:


std::priority_queueint order;

uint max_size = start + max_count;

  for (uint gnum=0; gnum  base-numGames; gnum++) {
if (base-treeFilter-Get(gnum) == 0) { continue; }
IndexEntry * ie = base-idx-FetchEntry (gnum);

for (uint gnum=0; gnum  base-numGames; gnum++) {

if (filter-Get(gnum) == 0) { continue; }

IndexEntry * ie = FetchEntry (gnum);

int value_sortedby = ie-GetWhiteElo();

order.push(value_sortedby);

if (order.size()  max_size) order.pop();

}


std::vectorint res(max_count);

for (int i = max_count -1; i = 0; i--) res[i] = order.pop();


This is a sample shorter version of the algorithm in sc_tree_best.

Writing dedicated code without std containers should be faster.

However i hadn't made any speed test.


For the 'interest' value i need some chess help.

The actual formula is:

interest = avg_elo + bonus_comment - penalty_old - penalty_earlydraw - 
penalty_rapid - penalty_blind



and

bonus_comment = 400

penalty_old = 20*each_year_old (max 400)

penalty_earlydraw = -250 if  30 moves; -100 if  40 moves

penalty_rapid = -250

penalty_blind = 400



It is a huge improvement versus the old simple avg_elo, but i'm not 
really satisfied.


Let me now if you have any suggestion.

Bye,

Fulvio




Messaggio originale
Da: gerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de
Data: 25/02/2011 19.19
A: Fulviof...@libero.it
Cc: Scid Users Listscid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Ogg: Re: Re: AW: [Scid-users] Sorting by variations patch

Hello Fulvio,

it is not that easy if I assume right that you want to have it
starting from the game 20 of the sorted database. Then you need to
sort the whole base first. This takes around 5 to 30 seconds for a
large base. Is the user prepared to wait for this? So we need to
discuss the usecases.





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Re: [Scid-users] Error on Engine Annotation (maybe when Mark Exercise is enabled)

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

I am sorry! I will have a look. But it will take some days, because the code
has changed a bit and needs to be adapted.

Gerd

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. Februar 2011 18:32
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Error on Engine Annotation (maybe when Mark
Exercise is enabled)

On 02/23/2011 12:00 PM, Joost 't Hart wrote:

Hi,

 On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Steve Steinitz
 li...@datatactics.com.au  wrote:

 Hi,

 Hi

 I'm liking Scid more and more.  Thanks again to the contributors.

 I hope this the right place to mention a possible bug.

 In version 4.3, I've started seeing errors during engine annotation.  It
may
 be dependant on the Mark Exercise option.  I was able to finish the
game's
 annotation by turning that option off.

 I've pasted the info from the error dialog below.  I can probably
reproduce
 it so please let me know if any further info would be useful.
 Thanks, for reporting!

 I will check and repair this ASAP (which will be, after a week
 holidays, on March 5 or thereabouts).

Found it...

In revision 1.66 of tkscid.cpp (on Jan 2, 2011) some so-called unused 
code was removed.

I suggest the offender puts it back himself :-)

Of course this can only happen because we have an interpreted language 
here (and a
matter of careless grep'ing).

Cheers,
Joost.

 Cheers,
 Joost.

 Cheers,

 Steve

 It showed this twice:

 Invalid command: sc_pos has the following minor commands:
addNag
bestSquare
board
clearNags
fen
getComment
getNags
hash
html
isAt
isLegal
isPromotion
matchMoves
moveNumber
pgnBoard
pgnOffset
probe
setComment
side
tex
moves

 And then this:

 while executing
 sc_pos analyze -time 1000 -hashkb 32 -pawnkb 1 -searchdepth $depth 
 (procedure markExercise line 42)
 invoked from within
 markExercise $prevscore $score ? 
 (procedure addAnnotation line 240)
 invoked from within
 addAnnotation
 (procedure autoplay line 14)
 invoked from within
 autoplay
 (after script)


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Re: [Scid-users] Sorting by variations patch

[gerd . lorscheid]

Hello,
I like to see the most interesting ( == commented) games to replay at the top 
of the gamelist window when the tree filter is enabled. I cannot sort the 
columns, but now I can sort the database. This comes in handy.
The first alternative is a bit tricky. It sorts the indes, which is always in 
memory. When the database is closed the index is saved. So the original order 
gets lost and the games in the game file are no longer sequential, but it is 
very easy to implement.
The second more serious alternative is not really a filter. It is something 
like a transposition table, four bytes needed for each game in the base. The 
game list window has only few interface methods and it is not so difficult to 
adapt them. Waiting five seconds for a reordering sounds accepable, because you 
do it only once and not with each call.
Gerd

- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -
Von: Steven
Gesendet: 22.02.11 08:00 Uhr
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Sorting by variations patch


The appended small 12-line patch allows to sort bases also by variation count 
and comment count from the maintenance window.

Seems to work here. On the surface it sounds like one of
those useless features, but i'm *sure* it will come in very handy.

I remember a discussion whether to allow column sorting in the game list 
window. 

When sorting a base it is now done in three steps. In the first the index is 
resorted and in the second the games are updated and written to the disc. The 
first two are done when sorting is called in the maintenance window. The first 
step takes for 5.000.000 games around 5 seconds. The second writes the index. 
As 

a third step a user should compact the game file to enforce its recreation. 
Otherwise any search over all games will be slow, because subsequent games are 
not in the same game block.
So sorting columns would have a reasonable performance and can be implemented 
in 

two ways:
The first try is simply to reuse this first step above but not making it 
persistent. 

Hmmm . I suppose you mean sorting the DB but not writing it to disk.
Are you sure this is feasible ? I'm not overly familiar with 
DB structure and searches, but it sounds dangerous to me
considering Scid's complexity. And at least part of Scid's
stability comes from it's immediate write-to-disk policy imho.

 The problem in large bases then is that searching will be slow, 
because the games are distributed randomly in the game file.
The second solution would be to add a mapping filter as soon as a user sorts 
games in the gamelist window. The advantage is that this is invisible to the 
search algorithms. The price is that it will cost around 20 MB memory for a 
5.000.000 database.

More filters !... [runs screaming from room]. 

But I am not sure whether sorting is really necessary. I would use it only to 
get commented and top-rated games to the top of the list, but this I get also 
by 

sorting the base after each import of new games.
 
 Gerd

Steven






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[Scid-users] Sorting by variations patch

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

 

The appended small 12-line patch allows to sort bases also by variation
count and comment count from the maintenance window.

 

I remember a discussion whether to allow column sorting in the game list
window. When sorting a base it is now done in three steps. In the first the
index is resorted and in the second the games are updated and written to the
disc. The first two are done when sorting is called in the maintenance
window. The first step takes for 5.000.000 games around 5 seconds. The
second writes the index. As a third step a user should compact the game file
to enforce its recreation. Otherwise any search over all games will be slow,
because subsequent games are not in the same game block.

So sorting columns would have a reasonable performance and can be
implemented in two ways:

The first try is simply to reuse this first step above but not making it
persistent. The problem in large bases then is that searching will be slow,
because the games are distributed randomly in the game file.

The second solution would be to add a mapping filter as soon as a user sorts
games in the gamelist window. The advantage is that this is invisible to the
search algorithms. The price is that it will cost around 20 MB memory for a
5.000.000 database.

But I am not sure whether sorting is really necessary. I would use it only
to get commented and top-rated games to the top of the list, but this I get
also by sorting the base after each import of new games.

 

Gerd



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Re: [Scid-users] Where the games saved in clipboard go?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

 

I think the clipboard plays a special role as a in memory database. But
using a chess database it is a usual task to copy a subset of games from
other databases to the clipboard, work with them and remove them from the
clipboard. So getting lots of warnings would be boring.

Chessbase has the same concept but the clipboard can only hold in it
references to games from other bases. Changing a game in the clipboard
changes the original game. So the concept to handle the clipboard database
like a real one in Scid is different. Remembering which of the games in the
clipboard is not saved in any persistent database may need  a lot of changes
in the code. Creating a default warning whenever leaving Scid or clearing
the clipboard will not help either, because after some time everybody will
ignore it.

I would not like to lose changes in a Word document, but I think this
clipboard here is something different.

 

Gerd

 

 

 

Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 5. Februar 2011 21:58
An: Esteban Cervetto
Cc: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Where the games saved in clipboard go?

 

On 02/05/2011 09:37 PM, Esteban Cervetto wrote: 

 

2011/2/5 Joost 't Hart joost.t.h...@planet.nl

On 02/05/2011 08:44 PM, Esteban Cervetto wrote:

Hi, 






 

Hello:

 

SCID don t ask me where the games are saved when I init a game with Ctrl+x
and I stay in the clipboard.

 

They are saved in the clip base (not to be confused with the clip board).

If you switch to a regular base, they are created there.

I accidentally close SCID. Can i recover it? 


No. The clip base lives in memory only (and for as long as scid remains
open).









 

I saved my game, but when I close Scid, I lost the game, or I dont know whre
the game is located

 

The clip base is not saved when you quit scid, indeed.

  Thats the problem! so, Why Can I need save a game in the clip base?
  In my point of view, It is easier and safer that, when the user tries
to save a game from the clipbase, Scid should ask for the database to save
it.


Remember, you are saving the game; that is, store it in a database. Clipbase
or not.

The clip base itself is _not_ saved. Use it for experiments or as temporary
storage for e.g. a set of filtered games.

Lesson learnt: Do not do any serious stuff in the clip base. It is not what
it is intended for.

What Scid could do is produce a warning when you try to leave scid with
games in the clip base (like it warns you when you leave scid with an
unsaved game in a regular base).
Personally I do not feel the need for such dialog, but I have only 1 opinion
on this :-)

Cheers,
Joost.




 

 

 

Cheers,
Joost.




 

 

Regards

 

Esteban

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[Scid-users] Strange format in pgn window

[Gerd Lorscheid]

   Hello,

 

the if condition in the following piece of code in game.cpp

 

// Modification to remove extra lines

if (CurrentPos-GetToMove() == WHITE)

  tb-PrintString (br);

 

has the following really unique format as result:

 

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6

This is the first comment 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4

This is the second comment 4... Nf6

 

I think this is very hard to read and should be replaced by its original
implementation:

 

  tb-PrintString (br);

 

with a standard format as result.

 

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6

This is the first comment 

3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4

This is the second comment 

4... Nf6

The rule is easy: Moves of the main variation and only these moves start
left bound and so are easy to read and cannot be missed.

If somebody does live without newlines he may prefer

 

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 This is the first comment 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4

This is the second comment 4... Nf6

 

but this is another story.

 

I would like to see this little change in 4.3 if still possible.

 

   Gerd

 

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Re: [Scid-users] Strange format in pgn window

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

 

with column style it would look like:

 

1. e4   e5 

2. Nf3  Nc6

This is the first comment 

3. Bb5  a6 

4. Ba4

This is the second comment 

4 ...   Nf6

 

which looks normal to me.  The code is used only for PgnStyle and
PGN_STYLE_INDENT_COMMENTS, so Latex is not involved.

 

   Gerd

 

 

 

Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl] 
Gesendet: Montag, 31. Januar 2011 22:53
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Cc: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Strange format in pgn window

 

On 01/31/2011 10:31 PM, Gerd Lorscheid wrote:

Hi,




   Hello,

 

the if condition in the following piece of code in game.cpp

 

// Modification to remove extra lines

if (CurrentPos-GetToMove() == WHITE)

  tb-PrintString (br);

 

has the following really unique format as result:

 

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6

This is the first comment 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4

This is the second comment 4... Nf6


Is this what you intended to show (might be an e-mail markup thingy)?
My feeling is that this bit of code is responsible for adding a newline
after the comment (in either white or black case, the observer function is
confusing...). I see none here (?)




 

I think this is very hard to read and should be replaced by its original
implementation:

 

  tb-PrintString (br);

 

with a standard format as result.

 

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6

This is the first comment 

3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4

This is the second comment 

4... Nf6

The rule is easy: Moves of the main variation and only these moves start
left bound and so are easy to read and cannot be missed.

If somebody does live without newlines he may prefer

 

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 This is the first comment 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4

This is the second comment 4... Nf6

 

but this is another story.

 

I would like to see this little change in 4.3 if still possible.


This will be possible; certainly. We still have some time to go, I am
afraid...

One question (admittedly, before trying this myself - will do):
Did you test this in conjunction with column-style moves? CVS is down, but
this bit of code may have to do with a recent correction of spurious blank
lines in the pgn window (by Alexander)...
Besides, the code may be reused by other pgn markup stuff (to LaTeX?). I
tried to digest this, but sort of gave up on it :-)

Cheers,
Joost.




 

   Gerd

 

 
 

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Re: [Scid-users] try variation remove annotations

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hi,

 

with button number 4 from the right over the board to end the try modus, you
get them back.

 

Gerd

 

Von: Esteban Cervetto [mailto:estebancs...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 29. Januar 2011 19:54
An: SCID Users
Betreff: [Scid-users] try variation remove annotations

 

hi 

 

try variation removes annotations 

 

Regards

 

Esteban

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Re: [Scid-users] Sourceforge down?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/SourceForge-schaltet-Server-nach-Einb
ruch-ab-1179409.html

Gerd

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl] 
Gesendet: Freitag, 28. Januar 2011 09:23
An: Fulvio
Cc: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Sourceforge down?

On 01/28/2011 09:14 AM, Fulvio wrote:
 Joost 't Hart wrote:
 Looks like they have stopped CVS. I hope so :-)


http://sourceforge.net/apps/wordpress/sourceforge/2011/01/27/service-downtim
e/ 


Thanks for noticing this; that explains.

Joost.


 Bye,
 Fulvio




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Re: [Scid-users] Best Games List/Games list + Filter interaction was: Potential data loss using trees

[gerd . lorscheid]

Hello,
your note that filters are more or less queries is right. In the product they 
are called everywhere filters, so I prefer to keep it.
treeFilter and dbFilter are already independent, so there is no need for 
changes.
If the user wants to filter by position and header search he performs a third 
query, which is the conjunction of the previous one. In the backend its name is 
filter and it is used by other functions, so I would not change it.
UpdateMainFilter is an optimized way to calculate filter out of treeFilter and 
dbFilter. There may be other ways doing this, but I would like to look at this 
when everything else is implemented. There may be a direct update between 
dbFilter, treeFilter and filter.
treeFilter needs to be recalculated whenever the position on the board changes. 
It has a check that it does not calculate the same position twice. 
sc_tree_search is maybe slow but it is very fast for what it does and there is 
no alternative.
Until now there were only one comment from Joost to my picture in one of the 
mails before. the statisticsFitler does not yet exist and I can live with my 
personal solution having a hardcoded 2300 limit for large bases. If we agree to 
go this way so that the full picture will be implemented, I am willing to help. 
A statisticsFilter could be something like 
 MINIMAL_ELO_FOR_EACH_PLAYER  MINIMAL_ELO_AVERAGE_FOR_BOTH_PLAYER
This could be saved as a database dependend property and loaded and evaluated 
at Scid startup or open of this base.
Gerd

- Ursprüngliche Nachricht -
Von: Fulvio
Gesendet: 25.01.11 10:45 Uhr
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Best Games List/Games list + Filter interaction was: 
Potential data loss using trees

Gerd Lorscheid wrote: 
 Hello, 
 
 What I have implemented is the following: 
 I have added a checkbox, which controls whether the games in the list are 
 filtered by the actual position. 
Ok, the user interface is perfect in my opinion. 
Can we try to discuss how to do that, maybe starting with making a 
common c++ backend.? 

First of all i want to delete the function: 
updateMainFilter( scidBaseT * dbase) 
(BTW, Filter::Merge is a misleading name. 
When i encountered: 
dbase-filter-Merge (dbase-treeFilter, dbase-dbFilter); 
i expected dbase-filter to become itself more dbase-treeFilter more 
dbase-dbFilter. 
Is dbase-filter = dbase-treeFilter  dbase-dbFilter; clearer, isn't 
it? ) 

Let's try to use the common database-query-view terminology. 
- One file.si4 is a database 
- dbFilter is a query in that database 
- treeFilter is a different query in that database 
- The Game List window is the view of the dbFilter query 
- The Tree window is the view of the treeFilter query 
Obviously each query needs to be completely separated and independent. 
This is a basic stuff, so i suppose there is no need to argue. 

IMHO, what we need to do: 
1) The sc_tree functions should change only the dbase-treeFilter 
2) The sc_search functions should change only the dbase-dbFilter 
3) When the Game List window wants a query of dbFilter  the current 
board position we deal with that (your approach of calling 
sc_tree_search is the cleanest, but is the slowest too) 

Do we agree on this? 


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Re: [Scid-users] Best Games List/Games list + Filter interaction was: Potential data loss using trees

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

as I understand there is something like the following structure in the air:


tcl-layerlist windows tree statistic window
   |\  /   |
   |  \   /|
   |\/ |
c++-layer   dbFiltertreeFilterstatisticFilter
 

where: 
- list windows are the game list window and the browser windows.
- The dbFilter is a short living filter defined to reduce the scope of a
database.
  Typical example is: Games of Kasparov
- treeFilter filters the games based on the position on the board. It cannot
be configured.
- statisticFilter is a long living filter to reduce the scope of the
statistic
  Typical example is: Games where both players have more than 2300 ELO.

Now each of the tcl windows should be able to activate or deactivate the
link to a underlying filter without deleting it. So a list window can show
all games, the games filtered by either dbFilter or treeFilter or both. Each
instance of a list window can have its own settings.

Today we have dbFilter and treeFilter and hardcoded links to the windows.
The statisticFilter is a bit different. It could look like a header search
filter, but many of its fields are not useful. Some like Alexanders example
are difficult to implement. The statisticFilter is long living. I would like
to set it once and get it automatically activated when Scid starts. Also
there should be different statisticFilter for different databases. I do not
want to recreate it when I add new games to the base. So a filter expression
and not its result needs to be saved.

I think the tcl layer should maintain which of the filter links are
activated for a given window. The info can be passed to the backend with
each call - there are only few of them. So the backend can calculate the
filters when necessary. This is not difficult to implement and I did it
already in my private code for the list windows to treeFilter link.

There remains the question how to visualize the state. Here I am open to any
proposal. For me a combo box would fit.

Gerd 


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Alexander Wagner [mailto:a.wag...@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de] 
Gesendet: Montag, 24. Januar 2011 18:06
An: f...@libero.it; Scid Users List
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Best Games List/Games list + Filter interaction
was: Potential data loss using trees

Hello Fulvio!

 Very interesting.
 I attach a screenshot and a patch.

Just checked out your screenshot. I'm currently on travel so I do not 
had a chance to check your code. Anyway, Steven seems to have had a 
glance and you seem to be interested in some response on the function as 
such.

Some comments:

- I like the context menu for the tree. This works in the direction of 
actually making the best games list an instance of the real games list. 
(Probably worth a consideration, to come to only one control here.)

- I like the ability to apply header filter to the tree or not even for 
the stats. This gives an easy access to repertoir browsing e.g. and IMHO 
blends very well with the masks feature.

- IMHO all games should be grayed out if no db filter is active. This 
could signify the user what's going on. However, I do not see right now 
how to obtain this.

 The code is very rough and probably have many issues, but i would like to
have
 your opinion on the tree behavior.
 1) The tree window updates only the best games window and not the game
list
 window

In general we should discuss this point further. Probably, the games 
list should indeed learn some states: all, tree, header and a 
combination of those. What I tried to discuss with Gerd (but he seems to 
miss understand me here a bit) is how we make clear to the user what he 
actually gets where and why. So, IMHO some visual feedback is required. 
Probably we need a function in the backend that signifies which filters 
are active to achieve this.

 2) A new checkbutton all games allow to show stats for all the games in
the
 database or only for the filtered ones.

This sounds a very good addition.

 I think that blending this with your improved game list window will
produce
 the maximum flexibility; giving everyone the possibility to choose his
 preferred way of work.

Indeed.

For me your direction would deserve a go state.

cu
Alexander

BTW: could you please adjust subjects and probably open a new post for 
new stuff? This makes it a lot easier for me to follow discussions, 
especially when I'm on the road. (Sometimes I've only a small Android at 
hand. Acutally, the reason for such a late reply to your interesting 
stuff...) TIA!


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Re: [Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

I cannot solve all problems with one small fix. The location, which I fixed
did overwrite an unsaved game without warning. This is what I prevented and
there is no alternative. There may be other locations doing the same. It may
be worth to check every place where the game is changed (to the first of the
filter) without warning. If any feature has a problem with my small fix, its
implementation has to be fixed because then its built on wrong assumptions.

Gerd



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Januar 2011 12:35
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Cc: 'Scid Users List'
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

Hi,

I suggest we analyze this issue a bit further...

On 10/08/2010 06:20 PM, Joost 't Hart wrote:
 Hi!

 [Linux, CVS]

 1a) Open a dbase in which you want to add a new game
 2a) Open-as-tree some big reference database (~4M games, dunno if size
 matters here)

 Do NOT wait for (2a) - which is concluded by the complete tree list of
 statistics - to complete

 1b) Start a new game (hit Ctrl-X)
 2b) Make a few moves on the board
 3b) Wait for (2a) to complete.

 Kaboom! Running game is destroyed, board returns to game#1 of your dbase.

 Cheers,
 Joost.

Gerd, your suggestion does not resolve the problem above.

After tree completion I am still sent back at game#1 of dBase.

But there /is/ a change:

When I exit Scid at this point, Scid produces an unsaved game warning 
and it appears that my new game is not entirely lost (as it was), but 
added as a new game to the tree base.

Hm...

Cheers,
Joost.


On 01/19/2011 09:03 PM, Gerd Lorscheid wrote:
   Hello,

 at the end of ::tree::dorefresh you find the following code:


# if the Tree base is not the current one, updates the Tree base to the
 first game in filter : that way it is possible to
# directly generate an opening report for example
if {$baseNumber != [sc_base current] } {
  set current [sc_base current]
  sc_base switch $baseNumber
  if { [sc_filter first] != 0 } {
sc_game load [sc_filter first]
  }
  sc_base switch $current


 Now if you do the following:
 * open two bases with trees
 * create a new game in one base, insert moves but do not save
 * switch to the other base and back.
 Your entered game is lost.

 The following replacement should prevent this.


# if the Tree base is not the current one, updates the Tree base to the
 first game in filter : that way it is possible to
# directly generate an opening report for example
if {$baseNumber != [sc_base current] } {
  set current [sc_base current]
  sc_base switch $baseNumber
  if { [sc_filter first] != 0 } {
if { [sc_game number] != 0 } {
  if { [sc_game altered] == 0 } {
sc_game load [sc_filter first]
  }
   }
  }
  sc_base switch $current


 Somebody should check it and check it in.

   Gerd





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Re: [Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hi,

as I said. This is most probably not the only place where an unsaved game is
overwritten. But in the use case I described when I submitted this fix this
location did overwrite an unsaved game. So I prevented it.
Basically there should be a routine in tcl to switch a game and this should
be used whenever the game is changed to ensure that nothing get lost. If
there is no problem then this will not change anything except make it 0.05
seconds slower. But if there is a problem the user has a chance to save his
work or prevent the switch. The call sc_game load is called more than 20
times in the tcl code, so volunteers are searched to have a look for each of
them and then the problem is gone.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Januar 2011 19:15
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Cc: 'Scid Users List'
Betreff: Re: AW: [Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

On 01/22/2011 04:36 PM, Gerd Lorscheid wrote:
   Hello,

 I cannot solve all problems with one small fix.

Probably true, but I do not think that anybody was expecting this.

 The location, which I fixed
 did overwrite an unsaved game without warning. This is what I prevented
and
 there is no alternative.

Hm.

Can you explain why your patch works? The sc_game * operations /should/ 
operate on a different game than the running game in the running base 
after you temporarily sc_base switch-ed to the tree base. Right?

That is why I think there is a threading problem at hand.

I analyzed a bit further. In my scenario I create a new game _after_ the 
tree base has been opened, but before the tree refresh is completed for 
the first time. Surprisingly the sc_game operations do not refer to my 
new game at all. The thread doing the tree refreshing seems to be 
unaware that I did create this new game.
If I create the new game before opening the base-as-tree, the problem 
does not show...

Cheers,
Joost.

 There may be other locations doing the same. It may
 be worth to check every place where the game is changed (to the first of
the
 filter) without warning. If any feature has a problem with my small fix,
its
 implementation has to be fixed because then its built on wrong
assumptions.

   Gerd



 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl]
 Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Januar 2011 12:35
 An: Gerd Lorscheid
 Cc: 'Scid Users List'
 Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

 Hi,

 I suggest we analyze this issue a bit further...

 On 10/08/2010 06:20 PM, Joost 't Hart wrote:
 Hi!

 [Linux, CVS]

 1a) Open a dbase in which you want to add a new game
 2a) Open-as-tree some big reference database (~4M games, dunno if size
 matters here)

 Do NOT wait for (2a) - which is concluded by the complete tree list of
 statistics - to complete

 1b) Start a new game (hit Ctrl-X)
 2b) Make a few moves on the board
 3b) Wait for (2a) to complete.

 Kaboom! Running game is destroyed, board returns to game#1 of your dbase.

 Cheers,
 Joost.
 Gerd, your suggestion does not resolve the problem above.

 After tree completion I am still sent back at game#1 of dBase.

 But there /is/ a change:

 When I exit Scid at this point, Scid produces an unsaved game warning
 and it appears that my new game is not entirely lost (as it was), but
 added as a new game to the tree base.

 Hm...

 Cheers,
 Joost.


 On 01/19/2011 09:03 PM, Gerd Lorscheid wrote:
  Hello,

 at the end of ::tree::dorefresh you find the following code:


 # if the Tree base is not the current one, updates the Tree base to
the
 first game in filter : that way it is possible to
 # directly generate an opening report for example
 if {$baseNumber != [sc_base current] } {
   set current [sc_base current]
   sc_base switch $baseNumber
   if { [sc_filter first] != 0 } {
 sc_game load [sc_filter first]
   }
   sc_base switch $current


 Now if you do the following:
 * open two bases with trees
 * create a new game in one base, insert moves but do not save
 * switch to the other base and back.
 Your entered game is lost.

 The following replacement should prevent this.


 # if the Tree base is not the current one, updates the Tree base to
the
 first game in filter : that way it is possible to
 # directly generate an opening report for example
 if {$baseNumber != [sc_base current] } {
   set current [sc_base current]
   sc_base switch $baseNumber
   if { [sc_filter first] != 0 } {
 if { [sc_game number] != 0 } {
   if { [sc_game altered] == 0 } {
 sc_game load [sc_filter first]
   }
  }
   }
   sc_base switch $current


 Somebody should check it and check it in.

  Gerd






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Re: [Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

you are right, what I did is the same as a dentist will do when you come at
the weekend. This is what I did and what I solved, because there was my
actual pain:

 Now if you do the following:
 * open two bases with trees
 * create a new game in one base, insert moves but do not save
 * switch to the other base and back.
 Your entered game is lost.

I think it is easy to reproduce, what happened before and after my patch.

What your dentist will do when he has time and you have money I have
described also below.

Gerd




-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Januar 2011 20:25
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Cc: 'Scid Users List'
Betreff: Re: AW: AW: [Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

On 01/22/2011 07:33 PM, Gerd Lorscheid wrote:

Hi!

   Hi,

 as I said. This is most probably not the only place where an unsaved game
is
 overwritten.

Please do understand that this /is/ the place where my game is 
overwritten, but that your protection mechanism (based on 
sc_game_number() !=0  sc_game_altered() == false ) does not work in my 
case. In my case, the observer functions simply do not refer to the 
actual state of affairs!

And that I do not understand either why it works for you. Did you maybe 
alter the running game in /both/ dBases?

I am not unwilling at all to commit your patch (believe me), but I am 
afraid that it may hide the real problem - which will consequently be 
harder to track down in ~some~ future.

Cheers,
Joost.

 But in the use case I described when I submitted this fix this
 location did overwrite an unsaved game. So I prevented it.
 Basically there should be a routine in tcl to switch a game and this
should
 be used whenever the game is changed to ensure that nothing get lost. If
 there is no problem then this will not change anything except make it 0.05
 seconds slower. But if there is a problem the user has a chance to save
his
 work or prevent the switch. The call sc_game load is called more than 20
 times in the tcl code, so volunteers are searched to have a look for each
of
 them and then the problem is gone.

   Gerd


 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl]
 Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Januar 2011 19:15
 An: Gerd Lorscheid
 Cc: 'Scid Users List'
 Betreff: Re: AW: [Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

 On 01/22/2011 04:36 PM, Gerd Lorscheid wrote:
  Hello,

 I cannot solve all problems with one small fix.
 Probably true, but I do not think that anybody was expecting this.

 The location, which I fixed
 did overwrite an unsaved game without warning. This is what I prevented
 and
 there is no alternative.
 Hm.

 Can you explain why your patch works? The sc_game * operations /should/
 operate on a different game than the running game in the running base
 after you temporarily sc_base switch-ed to the tree base. Right?

 That is why I think there is a threading problem at hand.

 I analyzed a bit further. In my scenario I create a new game _after_ the
 tree base has been opened, but before the tree refresh is completed for
 the first time. Surprisingly the sc_game operations do not refer to my
 new game at all. The thread doing the tree refreshing seems to be
 unaware that I did create this new game.
 If I create the new game before opening the base-as-tree, the problem
 does not show...

 Cheers,
 Joost.

 There may be other locations doing the same. It may
 be worth to check every place where the game is changed (to the first of
 the
 filter) without warning. If any feature has a problem with my small fix,
 its
 implementation has to be fixed because then its built on wrong
 assumptions.
  Gerd



 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl]
 Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Januar 2011 12:35
 An: Gerd Lorscheid
 Cc: 'Scid Users List'
 Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

 Hi,

 I suggest we analyze this issue a bit further...

 On 10/08/2010 06:20 PM, Joost 't Hart wrote:
 Hi!

 [Linux, CVS]

 1a) Open a dbase in which you want to add a new game
 2a) Open-as-tree some big reference database (~4M games, dunno if size
 matters here)

 Do NOT wait for (2a) - which is concluded by the complete tree list of
 statistics - to complete

 1b) Start a new game (hit Ctrl-X)
 2b) Make a few moves on the board
 3b) Wait for (2a) to complete.

 Kaboom! Running game is destroyed, board returns to game#1 of your
dbase.

 Cheers,
 Joost.
 Gerd, your suggestion does not resolve the problem above.

 After tree completion I am still sent back at game#1 of dBase.

 But there /is/ a change:

 When I exit Scid at this point, Scid produces an unsaved game warning
 and it appears that my new game is not entirely lost (as it was), but
 added as a new game to the tree base.

 Hm...

 Cheers,
 Joost.


 On 01/19/2011 09:03 PM, Gerd Lorscheid wrote:
 Hello,

 at the end of ::tree::dorefresh you find

Re: [Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

[Gerd Lorscheid]

1. Switching databases does not remove unsaved games
2. When you call ctrl-x you can see in the switcher what is the current
database.
The harmful operation is sc_game load ..., which does remove an existing
game and load a new one without warning. So it should never be called
without previous check for unsaved changes. All the 20 calls in the tcl code
today should be packaged in a method doing this check.

To your question whether database switching is necessary. In general no. But
there are a couple of methods in the backend, which do not get the target
database as argument and simply assume they should do their work on the
current one. This is easy to change (step by step), but people developing
something preferred simply to change the current database instead...
For my use I have implemented two fields in the game list window to switch
its list of games to any open database and to en/disable position filtering
independent whether a tree window for the database is open. Methods called
from the game list I had to change to take the target database as argument.
It works fine now, but I have some discussion with Alexander who uses Scid
in a different way and is no fan of these changes.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: f...@libero.it [mailto:f...@libero.it] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 22. Januar 2011 22:01
An: Scid Users List
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

I'm using a modified version, so my suggestion may be wrong.
When you open-as-tree scid change the active database, so when you hit
ctrl-x 
the game is not created in the opened database, but in the still loading
tree-
database.
When the tree-database is fully loaded the active database become the 
previously opened base (apparently deleting your game)
For me, switching to the tree-database show the new game with the moves 
entered.
Is a bug or is a necessity to switch the active database when
opening-as-tree?
No idea, just wanted to add some clues to your quest.
Bye,
Fulvio



Messaggio originale
Da: joost.t.h...@planet.nl
Data: 22/01/2011 12.35
A: Gerd Lorscheidgerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de
Cc: Scid Users Listscid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Ogg: Re: [Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

Hi,

I suggest we analyze this issue a bit further...

On 10/08/2010 06:20 PM, Joost 't Hart wrote:
 Hi!

 [Linux, CVS]

 1a) Open a dbase in which you want to add a new game
 2a) Open-as-tree some big reference database (~4M games, dunno if size
 matters here)

 Do NOT wait for (2a) - which is concluded by the complete tree list of
 statistics - to complete

 1b) Start a new game (hit Ctrl-X)
 2b) Make a few moves on the board
 3b) Wait for (2a) to complete.

 Kaboom! Running game is destroyed, board returns to game#1 of your dbase.

 Cheers,
 Joost.

Gerd, your suggestion does not resolve the problem above.

After tree completion I am still sent back at game#1 of dBase.

But there /is/ a change:

When I exit Scid at this point, Scid produces an unsaved game warning 
and it appears that my new game is not entirely lost (as it was), but 
added as a new game to the tree base.

Hm...

Cheers,
Joost.


On 01/19/2011 09:03 PM, Gerd Lorscheid wrote:
  Hello,

 at the end of ::tree::dorefresh you find the following code:


# if the Tree base is not the current one, updates the Tree base to
the
 first game in filter : that way it is possible to
# directly generate an opening report for example
if {$baseNumber != [sc_base current] } {
  set current [sc_base current]
  sc_base switch $baseNumber
  if { [sc_filter first] != 0 } {
sc_game load [sc_filter first]
  }
  sc_base switch $current


 Now if you do the following:
 * open two bases with trees
 * create a new game in one base, insert moves but do not save
 * switch to the other base and back.
 Your entered game is lost.

 The following replacement should prevent this.


# if the Tree base is not the current one, updates the Tree base to
the
 first game in filter : that way it is possible to
# directly generate an opening report for example
if {$baseNumber != [sc_base current] } {
  set current [sc_base current]
  sc_base switch $baseNumber
  if { [sc_filter first] != 0 } {
if { [sc_game number] != 0 } {
  if { [sc_game altered] == 0 } {
sc_game load [sc_filter first]
  }
  }
  }
  sc_base switch $current


 Somebody should check it and check it in.

  Gerd



 

--
 Protect Your Site and Customers from Malware Attacks
 Learn about various malware tactics and how to avoid them. Understand
 malware threats, the impact they can have on your business, and how you
 can protect your company and customers by using code signing.
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 ___
 Scid-users mailing list
 Scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
 https

[Scid-users] Potential data loss using trees

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

at the end of ::tree::dorefresh you find the following code:
  

  # if the Tree base is not the current one, updates the Tree base to the
first game in filter : that way it is possible to
  # directly generate an opening report for example
  if {$baseNumber != [sc_base current] } {
set current [sc_base current]
sc_base switch $baseNumber
if { [sc_filter first] != 0 } {
  sc_game load [sc_filter first]
}
sc_base switch $current


Now if you do the following:
* open two bases with trees
* create a new game in one base, insert moves but do not save
* switch to the other base and back.
Your entered game is lost.

The following replacement should prevent this.


  # if the Tree base is not the current one, updates the Tree base to the
first game in filter : that way it is possible to
  # directly generate an opening report for example
  if {$baseNumber != [sc_base current] } {
set current [sc_base current]
sc_base switch $baseNumber
if { [sc_filter first] != 0 } {
  if { [sc_game number] != 0 } {
if { [sc_game altered] == 0 } {
  sc_game load [sc_filter first]
}
}
}
sc_base switch $current


Somebody should check it and check it in.

Gerd



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Re: [Scid-users] Database Switcher in Gamelist window ?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hi,

I want to switch between databases with one mouse-click. This may be no
standard, but sorry I cannot live without it. I want to see how many games
are filtered in a database without any click. I want to drag and drop
databases to copy games instead of ... hmm ... what is here the standard?

By the way:
Political correctness shows that humans are susceptible to mad cow disease.

Gerd



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Benoit St-Pierre [mailto:benbon...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Montag, 17. Januar 2011 19:06
An: Scid Users List
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Database Switcher in Gamelist window ?

 Finally, maybe a repetition: scid is no editor or no webbrowser, it is a
database application.

Semantics do not help here: GUI are becoming standardized.

Here is one among many examples of what I am talking about:

http://www.devon-technologies.com/products/devonthink/

Yes, there is a way to switch between databases.

What I am suggesting should be obvious enough.

I am sure to be able to provide many more examples of database applications.


 Scids menues are quite long already

If you don't want to add a menu, it's possible to add these to
Windows, to File, even to Game, which should be called Database
anyway.

(IMHO, the whole menus would need a rehaul.  Tools and Windows, for
instance.  That said, I can live with what I have right now.)


 dd copy like Scids would not make any sens in an editor ;)

Unless I am mistaken, Scid's only way to copy games into another db is
by drag and drop.

IMHO, this is a weakness.


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Re: [Scid-users] Filter trap - Corner case?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

so things become clearer. Alexander and Steven are multi-window user and
Joost and me are single window user. Steven wants to connect the switcher to
the game list. For me as single window user it is connected anyway. But
there is a problem for multi. The switcher is also related to the main
window as the current game does switch with the actual database. And with
the changes I planning the game list is no longer dependent on the switcher.
Last point is that multi window users like Alexander don't use the game list
window in favor of the browser as stated below. Steven, you should think
twice.

Filtering on the tree data. In my private code I have a hack. If the
database is larger than 100.000 games it creates a statistic only on those
games with rating  2300. The reason is simple. Below there is a high risk,
that the game results do not relate to the opening. So following statistics
in opening preparation have a higher risk to become misleading. This hack
triggers only for large reference databases because there looking for a
statistic over all games is in my opinion completely useless.
A good question is how a clean implementation could look like. Again the
search filter of the database should not be misused for this as it has its
own useful purpose. One possibility could be a minimum rating field in the
tree window or just a flag with a hardcoded limit or the possibility to set
a full or some attributes of the header mask... I am open to alternatives
here.  

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Alexander Wagner [mailto:a.wag...@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de] 
Gesendet: Sonntag, 16. Januar 2011 10:58
An: f...@libero.it
Cc: Scid Users List
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Filter trap - Corner case?

On 01/15/2011 05:55 PM, f...@libero.it wrote:

Hi!

 I'm sorry, i probably didn't get your point right.
 Are you saying that the actual behavior: a tree window that shows the
stats
 for the entire unfiltered database and only the best games for the partial
 filtered database is an intended feature!?!

Right. The tree statistics currently refers to all games in the base 
while the best games gets the filter applied. Currently if you're 
searching for a player your tree does NOT reflect that players repertoir.

 What if i want to look at a list of games of an opponent, and at how the
top
 players (Carlsen, Aronian, Kramnik, etc...) played that position?

Well, I feel you've to resort to the way how it was done all day long: 
search for the players you're interested, copy their games to (at least) 
the clipbase and use that base' tree against your opponents game.

IMHO there're quite some reasons why you end up with more that just one 
reference base IRL. This is just one of them.

 Wouldn't it be simpler to just open a different tree window with only the
 games of an opponent (so you have stats and best games only for his games
and
 at the same time the ability to check your full database for stats and
best
 games of other players)?

If I got Gerd correcly once he supplied the filter patch, it would be 
easily possible to have the tree doing it's bean counting only against 
the filtered games. (Gerd, you might want to comment on this yourself, 
you're the expert here.) The question arises indeed if this would not be 
the more logical behaviour, following the filter logic. If I recall 
correctly one argument against it was that you might actually not be 
interested in your opponents repertoir but in the best move in your 
database. And this doesn't get displayed if you filter the tree stats.

(Side note: in Scid all those things were called searches till now, 
probably this has some meaning.)

cu
Alexander

BTW: for pure technical reasons and make it easier to follow 
discussions, it would be great if all members of this list could switch 
their email programs to use standard subject quoting (ie. Re: and 
nothing else) and get them to correctly handle threads. TIA!


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Re: [Scid-users] R: Re: Filter trap - Corner case?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

here you can see the difference how we work.
When I prepare an opening I load a new game, and play the moves of the
opening. At the same time I follow in the game window the matching games.
There might be a well commented one, a game of a good player playing the
same kind of positions as me etc. To get this info I do not want to click
anywhere let's say after every move. I can do this with Chessbase and I can
do it with Scid, if I open a tree window of my large database.
When I prepare for the next opponent I go through the opening I play and
watch in the game list the games of my opponent. So I can see where he is
leaving my preparations. If I have to click here and there every move to get
this information, I will get mad.
So the possibility to filter the games list automatically by the current
position is essential. What I find a wrong idea is to connect the existence
of the tree window with the filtering in the game list. This is what I would
like to decouple.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: f...@libero.it [mailto:f...@libero.it] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Januar 2011 16:07
An: Scid Users List
Betreff: [Scid-users] R: Re: Filter trap - Corner case?

I just repeat my opinion: the tree should not touch the filter.
When a filter for Kasparov (or an opponent) is set probably one wants to
look 
at that games, and maybe keep the tree opened to check the statistics. Why
the 
tree should change that list?
Want to look at games that reached a particular position: simply filter by
the 
that position.
Want to look at the list of best games in the current position: just click
the 
best games button on the tree window.
I really can't imagine a situation when it is useful to update the list of 
games every times you make a move.

Bye,
Fulvio



Messaggio originale
Da: a.wag...@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de
Data: 15/01/2011 15.24
A: Joost 't Hartjoost.t.h...@planet.nl
Cc: Scid Users Listscid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Ogg: Re: [Scid-users] Filter trap - Corner case?

On 01/12/2011 11:35 PM, Joost 't Hart wrote:

Hi!

 So the
 program behaves correct.

 Well, my initial impression was different, because I could not find any
 way to load another game;
 until I realized that closing the tree window might help.

This is a problem where I currently can't see a really good solution. 
With the filter patch enabled we get a (IMHO) very useful function, e.g. 
it is possible to restrict the games list to those games in a given 
position with a given player.

However, at the moment you actually need to know what you did for you to 
know which filters are enabled so you can understand what is displayed.

E.g. you do a header search for all games by Kasparov. The games window 
shows all games by him. All right. same behaviour as in all version of 
Scid. You clean the the header search, al games are back. In the backend 
you have the db filter working for this.

Now the same with some position on board and the tree opened. This gets 
the tree filter working. If you look up the games list you get all games 
that match the current position. Sensible as well. Once you close the 
tree window all games are back as the tree filter is cleaned.

Finally, you open the tree window, go to some position, and initiate a 
header search. Now you'll get the logical AND of the header search and 
the tree search in your games list. Very sensible as well. You can clean 
either filter by closing the tree window or cleaning the filter by the 
button respectively. (The first question that arises here is if clean 
filter should also clean the tree filter. I think no.) This is again 
all very logical.

However, things get a bit messy if you have more than one base opened 
and freeze the tree of some base at a given position and initiate 
different header searches for different bases.

Say you analyse an opening and want to see Kasparovs games from a OTB 
database and compare it with some games of Ulrich Stefan in your CC 
database. So you've two header searches, one against your OTB database 
for Kasparov, one for your CC database for Stefan, and just in case if 
you happen to analyse one of your own ongoing CC games even a third one 
initiated hidden to you entirely by Scids CC functions. Given, that 
header searches can be quite complex and even ran in sequence using 
booleans you might end up with a very complex query where you actually 
don't even know what you asked for, unless you keep a sheet of paper and 
a pencil handy and jot it down.

An especially difficult case is probably, that the tree statistics is 
calculated for the full base while the best games window applies the db 
filter, so if you count up the games in the tree you get more than you 
see in the best games.

Nothing wrong with any of this, but it is hard to grasp, indeed, and we 
should think of a way to tell the user more precisely what he currently 
sees. (I admit, that if I wake up my notebook from hiberantion in the 
evening to track 

Re: [Scid-users] Filter trap - Corner case?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

you cannot move forward and backward, but you can enter moves. So the
program behaves correct.
Currently the tree filter is still active, if the tree window is disabled.
It is just not updated. It may be a better idea it close the filter and
recreate it when the window is enabled again. So you do not need to close
it.
The second interesting possibility is to decouple the filter of the game
list and the existence of the tree window. A switch at the bottom of the
list window could enable/disable the filtering of its games independent
whether a statistic window is open. Then you could disable the filter there.

Gerd 


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Januar 2011 22:43
An: Scid Users List
Betreff: [Scid-users] Filter trap - Corner case?

Hi,

[CVS]

Following might be a corner case, but I came across it, and it is naughty.

Open a game in some base, and open the game list and the tree for that base.

Go to some base-unique position in the game, strip all moves from the 
beginning
and save as a new game.

Load the new game (filter identifies 2 games, the original one and this 
one), edit the start position and remove a pawn (e.g.) from the board, 
making the position unique. Replace the game.

And now your're stuck.

Cannot move forward or backward in the game (of course) and both game 
list and tree window are empty!
Reset filter does not help.
The only way out is to close the tree window.

Funny, huh?

I would not call this a serious problem, unless the reason for this 
lockup can lead to more serious usability trouble.

Cheers,
Joost.




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Re: [Scid-users] Filter trap - Corner case?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hi,

at the bottom of the tree window there is a button to enable/disable the
update. When you disable it scid still keeps the filter for the game list
with the content of this moment. You can move on the board and the games in
the game list are still the same. In your case there was only one left.
Instead the disable could remove the filter for the game list at all, then
you see all games at this moment.
With the coupling of open tree window and game list filter the behavior was
correct. On the board there was a position, which does not exist in any
game. So the game list was empty as long as the filter was enabled (the tree
window open). Only decoupling helps.

Gerd




-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Januar 2011 23:35
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Cc: 'Scid Users List'
Betreff: Re: AW: [Scid-users] Filter trap - Corner case?

On 01/12/2011 11:13 PM, Gerd Lorscheid wrote:

Hi,

   Hello,

 you cannot move forward and backward,

Sure, because there are no moves in the game. Indeed.

 but you can enter moves.

Yep.

 So the
 program behaves correct.

Well, my initial impression was different, because I could not find any 
way to load another game;
until I realized that closing the tree window might help.

 Currently the tree filter is still active, if the tree window is disabled.

What do you mean by disabled?

 It is just not updated.

The main thing that puzzles me is what can cause the tree filter to 
result in no games (in tree window and game list). I feel that this 
should never happen, unless I am in a position that has not been added 
to the base yet.

I mean, if the filter is not changed by the start position change than 
the original game should still be there (although it does not contain 
the position on the board). If the filter _is_ changed by that action, 
than the current game should be in the list, as it does contain the 
position on the board.

Maybe the filter _result_ should be updated as soon as I save the game 
to the base? Or is that tricky to implement?

 It may be a better idea it close the filter and
 recreate it when the window is enabled again. So you do not need to close
 it.
 The second interesting possibility is to decouple the filter of the game
 list and the existence of the tree window. A switch at the bottom of the
 list window could enable/disable the filtering of its games independent
 whether a statistic window is open. Then you could disable the filter
there.

Yes, maybe. But the user needs a full grasp of the filter cascading 
mechanism in order to understand that the alternative Search/Reset 
filter operation does not help (as this clears only the filter that he 
explicitly set himself - and I did not do this).

Cheers,
Joost.

   Gerd


 -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
 Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl]
 Gesendet: Mittwoch, 12. Januar 2011 22:43
 An: Scid Users List
 Betreff: [Scid-users] Filter trap - Corner case?

 Hi,

 [CVS]

 Following might be a corner case, but I came across it, and it is naughty.

 Open a game in some base, and open the game list and the tree for that
base.

 Go to some base-unique position in the game, strip all moves from the
 beginning
 and save as a new game.

 Load the new game (filter identifies 2 games, the original one and this
 one), edit the start position and remove a pawn (e.g.) from the board,
 making the position unique. Replace the game.

 And now your're stuck.

 Cannot move forward or backward in the game (of course) and both game
 list and tree window are empty!
 Reset filter does not help.
 The only way out is to close the tree window.

 Funny, huh?

 I would not call this a serious problem, unless the reason for this
 lockup can lead to more serious usability trouble.

 Cheers,
 Joost.




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Re: [Scid-users] [SPAM?]: Re: ScidBase?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

this here is really funny to read. There are no copyrights on chess games. So 
what you can do is order Bigbase for 50 Euro from Chessbase and you have pretty 
good edited 4.500.000 games. Bigbase has no annotations, which have copyrights. 
You can convert them to .si4 and distribute them. Nothing else Chessbase is 
doing. For sure they did not enter 4.500.000 games (4.500.000 games * 5 minutes 
per game * 12 Euro per hour == 4.500.000 Euro).
It look like you try to walk to the but have entered a apple tree happy to have 
done the first step.

By the way: I have entered Zurich Candidates 1953 to pay my Chessbase license 
25 years ago.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: J. Wesley Cleveland [mailto:j.wesley.clevel...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 4. Januar 2011 20:22
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: [SPAM?]: Re: [Scid-users] ScidBase?

 From: Chris Lott ch...@chrislott.org
 Subject: Re: [Scid-users] ScidBase?
 To: Alexander Wagner a.wag...@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de
 Cc: Scid Users List scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net, Chris Lott
chris.l...@gmail.com
 Message-ID:
aanlktinhd4b=tzvft8t3q5b8hmv1w6=rffxmaissj...@mail.gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 5:54 AM, Alexander Wagner
 a.wag...@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de wrote:

 The pragmatic way would be something like: Chris works in Zurich
 Candidats 1953. Checks the games, cleans data, and once he places a hook
 at Zurich 1953 this tournament is done. Fullstop. Next one... Unless
 someone spots an inconsistency it is never touched again.

 That way I have a prelimiary starting point of about 105.000 games here
 contributed by some diligent users on this list. The basic
 infrastructure needed to do this is: You work on this, I work on that.
 I think all you need is a Wiki to jot down which tournaments are already
 done. (This is the nice thing: you can work by years and tournaments
 instead of individual games. This gives some nice chunks and a natural
 order.) If I remember correctly the guys who did the work so far just
 split it by time frames and then started to work up some game archives
 on the Net tourney by turney, unified player names, corrected missing
 data as far as it was possible and so on.

 I'd be interested in picking this project back up if others are... or
 at least doing the legwork to get a wiki page together capturing what
 has been done so far with the base you have (if you haven't already)
 in preparation for making some contributions.

 Would it then make sense to commit these as individual PGN files per
 match/tournament/etc to make it easy to note and pick up additions as
 they were made?


 PS: For the time being I'd leave out commented games for the time being
 to avoid any sort of trouble in advance. It could be worthwhile to
 collect them separately with identical PGN headers. (BTW:
 crossreferencing would then be indeed easy by some sort of ID.) There
 might be some idea of copyright issues here and not all players might
 confirm with Anands views on this issue. (To the best of my knowledge
 the annotation of a game of chess does not give you ANY copyright on
 that annotation. Juristic reasoning here is AFAIK that chess is logic,
 so annotation of chess does not involve any creative act, thus you can
 not obtain copyright of an annotation.)

 Yeah, the annotations are a debatable thing, so it would make sense
 to, if not exclude them entirely, only include them as something
 optional...
I would like to see this go forward also. My first question is where
and in what format would the database be hosted. Sourceforge, github,
or google sites are possibilities, but none seem ideal. CVS, GIT, or
equivalent would would make updates and revision tracking easy but
would not be userfriendly. A wiki, especially with a chessboard
gadget, would be convenient but I don't know how easy it would be to
download the pgn from it.

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Re: [Scid-users] [SPAM?]: Re: ScidBase?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

this here is really funny to read. There are no copyrights on chess games. So 
what you can do is order Bigbase for 50 Euro from Chessbase and you have pretty 
good edited 4.500.000 games. Bigbase has no annotations, which have copyrights. 
You can convert them to .si4 and distribute them. Nothing else Chessbase is 
doing. For sure they did not enter 4.500.000 games (4.500.000 games * 5 minutes 
per game * 12 Euro per hour == 4.500.000 Euro).
It look like you try to walk to the moon but have entered a apple tree happy to 
have done the first step.

By the way: I have entered Zurich Candidates 1953 to pay my Chessbase license 
25 years ago.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: J. Wesley Cleveland [mailto:j.wesley.clevel...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 4. Januar 2011 20:22
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: [SPAM?]: Re: [Scid-users] ScidBase?

 From: Chris Lott ch...@chrislott.org
 Subject: Re: [Scid-users] ScidBase?
 To: Alexander Wagner a.wag...@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de
 Cc: Scid Users List scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net, Chris Lott
chris.l...@gmail.com
 Message-ID:
aanlktinhd4b=tzvft8t3q5b8hmv1w6=rffxmaissj...@mail.gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

 On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 5:54 AM, Alexander Wagner
 a.wag...@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de wrote:

 The pragmatic way would be something like: Chris works in Zurich
 Candidats 1953. Checks the games, cleans data, and once he places a hook
 at Zurich 1953 this tournament is done. Fullstop. Next one... Unless
 someone spots an inconsistency it is never touched again.

 That way I have a prelimiary starting point of about 105.000 games here
 contributed by some diligent users on this list. The basic
 infrastructure needed to do this is: You work on this, I work on that.
 I think all you need is a Wiki to jot down which tournaments are already
 done. (This is the nice thing: you can work by years and tournaments
 instead of individual games. This gives some nice chunks and a natural
 order.) If I remember correctly the guys who did the work so far just
 split it by time frames and then started to work up some game archives
 on the Net tourney by turney, unified player names, corrected missing
 data as far as it was possible and so on.

 I'd be interested in picking this project back up if others are... or
 at least doing the legwork to get a wiki page together capturing what
 has been done so far with the base you have (if you haven't already)
 in preparation for making some contributions.

 Would it then make sense to commit these as individual PGN files per
 match/tournament/etc to make it easy to note and pick up additions as
 they were made?


 PS: For the time being I'd leave out commented games for the time being
 to avoid any sort of trouble in advance. It could be worthwhile to
 collect them separately with identical PGN headers. (BTW:
 crossreferencing would then be indeed easy by some sort of ID.) There
 might be some idea of copyright issues here and not all players might
 confirm with Anands views on this issue. (To the best of my knowledge
 the annotation of a game of chess does not give you ANY copyright on
 that annotation. Juristic reasoning here is AFAIK that chess is logic,
 so annotation of chess does not involve any creative act, thus you can
 not obtain copyright of an annotation.)

 Yeah, the annotations are a debatable thing, so it would make sense
 to, if not exclude them entirely, only include them as something
 optional...
I would like to see this go forward also. My first question is where
and in what format would the database be hosted. Sourceforge, github,
or google sites are possibilities, but none seem ideal. CVS, GIT, or
equivalent would would make updates and revision tracking easy but
would not be userfriendly. A wiki, especially with a chessboard
gadget, would be convenient but I don't know how easy it would be to
download the pgn from it.

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Re: [Scid-users] PGN window unstable

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

I did not care about %3 or anything else. I removed the variable
ProbeCounts, which caused the overflow. It was used for debugging only.
In a second step I cleaned the code from unused stuff not aware that there
is an external tool scidlet using it. This is removed until scidlet is
removed.
So this problem is solved, but you never know how many others are
sleeping...

Gerd




-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl] 
Gesendet: Montag, 3. Januar 2011 23:14
An: Steven
Cc: Scid
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] PGN window unstable

On 01/03/2011 10:56 PM, Steven wrote:

Hi,

 Gerd,

 Have the recent changes fixed the PGN instability issue ?

Yes. They were caused by a (debug-only) buffer overflow in the 
engine.cpp code.

 Joost wrote:
 Yet what surprised me is that flag values  3 really
 could be
 meaningless. Note that they are not taken into account in
 the switch
 statement to follow. Hence I wonder what is going on in the
 hash
 machinery itself. Including why the closing tte_ScoreFlag()
 operation in
 ProbeHash() masks the hash flag with 0x07.
 I mean, it might as well be that this mask value should
 actually be
 equal to 0x03 This would render a meaningful value and
 explain the
 buffer size of 4 uints at the same time!
 I had the same first impression , but Gerd hasn't changed this
 line : engine.cpp:

 inline scoreFlagT tte_ScoreFlag (transTableEntryT * tte)
 {  return (tte-flags  7);  }

 Isn't it meant to be

 {  return (tte-flags  3);  }

My suggestion was probably wrong. My current feeling is that values  3 
simply denote cache misses - this I concluded from somewhat more recent 
crafty code, which includes some helpful comments.

 Alex, i think your recent cvs commit *comments* are erroneous.
 The engine.cpp changes are not fixes to scidlet,
 but Scid's built-in engine, which is different.

The comments are OK. The engine.cpp code is used for both the internal 
engine and scidlet. Gerd's original fix to the pgn stability issue 
broke scidlet's build.

 Gerd seems to be responsible

Is this what you feel, Gerd? :-)

 for some quite detailed
 technical programming. Perhaps he should have CVS write
 permissions ?? That way he can fix all his bugs

lol.

 easily enough ;

Do agree, nevertheless.

Cheers,
Joost.

 Steve



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Re: [Scid-users] ScidBase?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

unique IDs to ensure a *high-quality* cannot be achieved. How should the ID
be calculated? Experience shows that any attributes of a game can be
inconsistent: names, location, date, result and even moves. So the only
solution is to have smart duplicate checking. Scid has one 60 times faster
than chessbase but the algorithm can be improved to find potential
duplicates. If let say 95% of the properties are equal including the moves
or if the moves differ only in one move, caused by a wrong input. Smart
handling of commented games is another interesting area.

Gerd 



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Benoit St-Pierre [mailto:benbon...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011 19:53
An: Scid Users List
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] ScidBase?

This project dates to the days me and Alex were arguing with Pascal
for the need to add unique IDs to games.

Pascal said that adding IDs to games would slow Scid too much.

Without unique IDs, trying to have a *high-quality* database is way to
error-prone to my own taste.

If we can design some objective ways to insure quality-control, I
could be back in.


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Re: [Scid-users] ScidBase?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hi,

you still have the problem, that two users on two systems enter the same
game. Now these two games are duplicates viewed from their internal database
ids, but not for me. Unique IDs in databases are mainly useful to allow
quick referencing inside of the database. What we would need and what does
not exist is known by databases as natural keys. I guess a composition of
them is what you are looking for. But there is no subset of attributes,
which allows to determine identity of two games. That is why only a smart
duplicate detection can help. 
That is why for example discovery of a computer network with all its
components is such a nice job. Very similar to our problem. 

Gerd



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Benoit St-Pierre [mailto:benbon...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011 22:55
An: Scid Users List
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] ScidBase?

 unique IDs to ensure a *high-quality* cannot be achieved. How should the
ID be calculated?

The ID is simply given and maintained by the database facility.  In
relational database theory, I believe that to have unique IDs is
axiomatic.  I am not sure that it's possible to have relational
databases that work without unique IDs.

This ID would guarantee the internal consistency of the database.  To
have something like external consistency, we sould need a service akin
to URI or DOI conventions.

The way I envision it, we could completely kill off duplicates by
first insuring that we have the proper metadata and the correct
gamescore.  Then, as soon as a game is sufficiently similar to thess
corrected data, we simply would delete this game and replace it with
the sanitized data.

That hundreds of thousands chessplayers hand-pick and correct chess
scores and chess metadata by hand is beyond me.  It also runs against
every principles on which is based archiving.

In fact, that we can't yet download a sanitized database for Scid is
still beyond me.

More on that has been already told.  Search for CentriScid in the archives.

***

That said, I know that I am speaking from a theorical standpoint.  I
absolutely have no idea if that's possible in practice, considering
the meager resources we have for now and the way to hunt and gather
chess games is deeply rooted in chess culture.  So please bear in mind
that I am in no way asking anyone to do anithing here.


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Re: [Scid-users] [Bug!] Scid crashes upon click-player-name in game info window

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

I had sent a fix to Alexander. If anybody else wants to check it in.

Gerd

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 1. Januar 2011 12:46
An: Scid Users List
Betreff: [Scid-users] [Bug!] Scid crashes upon click-player-name in game
info window

Hi,

CVS, both Linux and Windows

Load a game and click on either player name in the game info window 
below the chess board.

Scid crashes. On Linux with a seg fault. On Windows we are invited to 
tell Microsoft about this problem :-)

Would like to call this regression. Have not been able to relate this to 
any environment (ssp etc) file.

Cheers,
Joost.


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---BeginMessage---
Hallo,

 

vor kurzem wurde ein Patch eingespielt, der das Infofeld vergrößern sollte.
Leider hat der Autor nicht an die gedacht, die kein Infofeld verwenden. In
diesem Fall bleibt der vergrößerte Bereich einfach leer. Ich habe dies in
start.tcl geändert, sodass nun wieder wie vorher das Brett den ganzen
Bereich vereinnahmt.

 

Das Annotator- und Copy-Feature sind auf bestem Weg fertig zu werden. Ich
werde sie dir spätestens Sonntag schicken.

 

Gruß, Gerd



info.patch
Description: Binary data
---End Message---
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[Scid-users] PGN window unstable

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

the scid binary I am compiling for myself with VisualStudio and optimizing
enabled likes to crash when I navigate through a game with variations and
then click on a move in the pgn window. 
What I found is that the global language variable is overwritten by the
engine code. Next the localization of a move failed by a null pointer,
because the language and so the offset to the conversion table does not
exist. The known problem is that the behavior can be different, if compiled
with different optimizing options or with a different compiler. But I am
still interested if anybody has or had the same experiences, because with a
future version somebody else can run into the same trouble.
The engine is allocated and runs for some time before it is deleted. During
its run it does not allocate memory, nothing runs in parallel. So this looks
like the engine is guilty, but I am not sure about TCL whether something can
be triggered in parallel.

Hints are welcome,

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Benoit St-Pierre [mailto:benbon...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 1. Januar 2011 18:34
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] copying games from scid - ctrl-c does not work as
expected

Alexander completed my sentence:

 If the game list window is active, copying the active game.

It copies the active game in the Clipboard.  Perhaps this is what we
would like Scid to do in every context.

When I am in the Database Manager Window, I can click on the Clipbase
and do stuff.  For instance, I can drag the games into another DB.

But it seems I can't easily copy the games from the Clipbase into the
buffer.  That's something I'd like to do when I right-click on the
Clipbase Icon.  (Being able to Open a databse with the right-click is
a bit strange, btw.)

In fact, lots of actions could be done when right-clicking on this
icon.  Empty Clipboard and Reset filter are very powerful.  If I could
Copy all the Clipbase games into my buffer, that would be great for
editing purposes.

Whatever comes out of right-clicking, there seems to be a need to
speed things up with the Exporting Tool.


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Re: [Scid-users] PGN window unstable

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello again,

in engine.cpp there are the lines: 

scoreFlagT hashflag = ProbeHash (depth, hashscore, hashmove,
isOnlyMove);
ProbeCounts[hashflag]++;

ProbeCounts is an byte-array of four fields, but hashflag returns values 
3. ProbeCounts seems obviously to be used only for debugging purposes.
Compiled with optimizing the language variable is 18 bytes behind
ProbeCounts, so there is a major discrepancy between expected and real
value.
I will prepare a patch to clean this up.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Gerd Lorscheid [mailto:gerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 1. Januar 2011 22:05
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: [Scid-users] PGN window unstable

Hello,

the scid binary I am compiling for myself with VisualStudio and optimizing
enabled likes to crash when I navigate through a game with variations and
then click on a move in the pgn window. 
What I found is that the global language variable is overwritten by the
engine code. Next the localization of a move failed by a null pointer,
because the language and so the offset to the conversion table does not
exist. The known problem is that the behavior can be different, if compiled
with different optimizing options or with a different compiler. But I am
still interested if anybody has or had the same experiences, because with a
future version somebody else can run into the same trouble.
The engine is allocated and runs for some time before it is deleted. During
its run it does not allocate memory, nothing runs in parallel. So this looks
like the engine is guilty, but I am not sure about TCL whether something can
be triggered in parallel.

Hints are welcome,

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Benoit St-Pierre [mailto:benbon...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 1. Januar 2011 18:34
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] copying games from scid - ctrl-c does not work as
expected

Alexander completed my sentence:

 If the game list window is active, copying the active game.

It copies the active game in the Clipboard.  Perhaps this is what we
would like Scid to do in every context.

When I am in the Database Manager Window, I can click on the Clipbase
and do stuff.  For instance, I can drag the games into another DB.

But it seems I can't easily copy the games from the Clipbase into the
buffer.  That's something I'd like to do when I right-click on the
Clipbase Icon.  (Being able to Open a databse with the right-click is
a bit strange, btw.)

In fact, lots of actions could be done when right-clicking on this
icon.  Empty Clipboard and Reset filter are very powerful.  If I could
Copy all the Clipbase games into my buffer, that would be great for
editing purposes.

Whatever comes out of right-clicking, there seems to be a need to
speed things up with the Exporting Tool.


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Re: [Scid-users] copying games from scid - ctrl-c does not work as expected

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

interesting would be to know what the compatibility problems on Unix/Mac
are. I think it is not necessary to get Crtl-C to work. There are a lot of
examples where Scid could ease daily work by providing often recurring tasks
through context menus. One example was the annotation of moves with e.g. a
question mark where before it was necessary to open a comment window. An
entry in the context menue of the PGN and game-list window, which copies the
notation/FEN of the (selected) game(s) to the clipboard, would be very
convenient. I know the impact on Windows, but don't know where the problems
on Unix are.

Gerd



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Axel Moser [mailto:axel.mo...@carrot-solutions.de] 
Gesendet: Freitag, 31. Dezember 2010 19:53
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] copying games from scid - ctrl-c does not work as
expected

Hello Joost,

thx for the clarification - exactly what I meant; it would make more 
sense if either the menue entry was clearer or it simply worked the way 
a naive user like me expects it.

Any chances for changing this? It wold be really nice to see this 
feature since I think there are quit a few people who post games on 
messageboards, forum etc on a regular basis - it would simply be much 
more comfortable.

See you
Axel

Am 31.12.2010 19:48, schrieb Joost 't Hart:
 On 12/31/2010 06:20 PM, Benoit St-Pierre wrote:

 Under Windows, I can select the PGN text in the PGN window and copy it
 with CTRL-C.
 Isn't this exactly what Axel said?

 Under Mac, I can't (because of portability issues, I believe), so I
 need to go into Edit/Copy to Clipboard.

 Under Linux, I really can't say.
 No; does not work.

 --

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Re: [Scid-users] scidb project?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hi,

have a look to:

http://scidb.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/scidb/

The last check-in was today, but the content is more or less only copied
libraries. There is nothing the screenshots could be based on. So I guess we
will see a lot of further delay announcements during the next years.

Gerd




-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Fulvio [mailto:f...@libero.it] 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 30. Dezember 2010 11:10
An: Scid Users List
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] scidb project?

Chris Lott wrote:
 By happenstance I came across this Scid related project/fork whatever.
 Is anyone here involved with this project?

 http://scidb.sourceforge.net/

 The post that mentioned it was doing so in the context of scidb having
 support to read .cbh files...

   

And the screenshots are amazing:
More than one game opened:
http://scidb.sourceforge.net/screenshots/board-4.png


a beautiful gamelist:
http://scidb.sourceforge.net/screenshots/playerlist-1.png


different piece sets:
http://scidb.sourceforge.net/screenshots/setup-1.png


I'm very curious to see the first release!


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Re: [Scid-users] ideas for improvement?

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

just a few notes about Chessbase compared to Scid. Finding duplicate games in 
Chessbase takes 60 times more time than in Scid. During this time (6 hours) no 
access in Chessbase and no possibility to start another instance of it. 
Compacting the database the same. Basically every non-trivial algorithm 
implemented in Chessbase is unusable. 
With Chessbase 11 it is the first time possible to view the reference 
statistics and the notation of a game at the same time! Before I had to switch 
between tabs. I like to see for a game its notation, reference statistics of 
the current position, statistics of my opponent games and of my own ones in a 
single window updating with every move. That is what I expect professionals to 
use.
Now Chessbase has reimplemented the UI instead. And here is the proof. There 
are people believing that there must be a nice product behind a nice UI.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Michał Rudolf [mailto:mrud...@kdewebdev.org] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 29. Dezember 2010 16:23
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] ideas for improvement?

Dnia 2010-12-28, wto o godzinie 16:17 -0900, Chris Lott pisze:

 The single best feature I will admit is useful in searches, is CQL.
 Scid does NOT have it , only Chess Assistant 10 and up has CQL.You
 will have to google it and look at the article and link on chessok.com
 or google chessok.com and CQL 2008-2009 follow up.
While CQL may be useful sometimes, I doubt more than 1% of users will
ever use it. It is clearly intended for a power user.

  I can say chessbase is faster than scid, to find patterns in new
 collections like 2-3000 TWIC chess games. It will sort and index tons
 as well as crossovers and thematic connections. scid is still limited.
Indexing finds things like mate in 2 or rook endgames. This is quite
trivial to implement, but doesn't seem useful. I don't think there is a
software which automatically can find deflection, bank rank mate or
decoy tactics.

 Chessbase 10 has an ability to display a tree and show next move %
 from each color not just white's side. 
This is something that always puzzled me. Why use the format which
requires keeping an eye on which side is to move? Again, changing from
'white' to 'side to move' is probably a one-line change - but for me a
highly unwelcomed one.

 It also shows discarded lines,
 one click repertoire prep, one click opponent prep as black/white,
 best player and/or most frequent player for each line, the critical
 line (best play both sides/forced lines subvariations), show next move
 in tree (ex: list each line then show stats% for each follow up move
 and branch per side). It shows it as a list with say black response
 then all lines go horizontal and allow how far to display 1-20 moves.
Does anybody has some screenshots to explain those?

 Chess basics are easy in scid, but for serious tournament type stuff,
 use only chessbase professional (mega or premium), Chess Assistant 11
 professional (mega), and the August 2010 chess openings wizard
 professional, and Deep Rybka 4 with Deep Rybka Aquarium 4, as they do
 tons more than SCID can ever remotely possibly attempt to do.
Ok, this is just a typical Internet rant with no arguments. Of course,
some commercial tools probably are better than Scid, although some proof
will be welcomed.

I had trouble with never being
 able to sort games name list by alphabetical order, but with 1 click
 convenience, can make one mouse click in chessbase and the tab at
 the top changes and sorts entire 5,000,000 game list in 2 to 3 seconds
 tops! on a 100,000 game list, it was instant ! click,it is A-Z, click
 again, it goes Z-A order; and you can scroll through to see who has
 what.
I wonder if changing the order column of 5M games also is instant? Can
anybody confirm that?

 Chessbase also has a feature SCID needs but lacks, the player tab 
Present in Scid as a separate window.

 like 10 middlegame features, motifs,themes,etc to show on player
 report or opening report, and chessbase has over 500 (five hundred no
 typo). Which do you think is more complex and detailed? It does a
 summary with + sign left of each word for more breakdown (expands /
 opens folder).
Both seem more or less useless to me (what good comes from a list of
mate in 1 or 'pawn endgames with 2 pawns' themes?)

 You try to load TWIC and see who has most games, try it, and you do it
 manual vs automatic 1 touch shopping in chessbase. You click number
 column tab and instantly see whose games are feature most this time.
I don't understand last question.

  The big sales part is showing discarded lines, %won, preparing for
 select players as either color 
This is missing in Scid and requires some tricks like copying player
games to separate database. Definitely should be easier.

 and one click opening reports and player reports 
Present in Scid.

 showing stats/themes/strategy/tactics/endings/and much
 more. When all used together, 

[Scid-users] Bug in PGN-Parser

[Gerd Lorscheid]

  Hello,

 

In the Chessbase database there is a game (Nataf-Schlosser) with a comment
of around 30kbyte in one line. My scid, compiled with VisualStudio crashes
when reading this from a PGN-file, because it tries to write outside of the
heap. The released 4.2.2 Scid does not crash, which means it overwrites
instead some data inside of the heap. But then everything can happen later
on. PGNParser is waiting for someone to make at least its implementation a
bit more robust. Allocating plain fixed length char * buffer and using its
own read methods, which do not return any status, are the optimal
environment for problems like this.

I am not willing to do this as I am anyway working at an replacement to all
file access methods including MFile and PGNParser. My idea is to implement
the current interface of MFile based on a block based implementation like
GFile. Then buffers for reading input are not necessary anymore, because it
is handled then in the background.

 

Regards,

 

Gerd Lorscheid

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[Scid-users] (no subject)

[gerd . lorscheid]

Hello,?textnoenc prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office /?
with the change of Windows Mobile 6.5 to 7 I guess scid will no longer run on 
this platform. Are there other (linux based) platforms supporting it or does 
this mean that this is the end of the story?
Regards,
Gerd Lorscheid

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[Scid-users] Scid leaks memory

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

 

somebody had the idea at the beginning of Game::Decode(..)  to add the line
NumTags = 0; just before clear(); is called. So the tags are not cleared and
for example with each game copied between databases around 300 bytes get
lost.  But it may leak whenever ScratchGame is used. 

I do not know what the intention for this dubious line of code was as
clear() was called next to it, but whoever introduced it should rethink.

 

Regards,

 

Gerd Lorscheid

 

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[Scid-users] Some notes

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

 

I had a look to the scid source code to find areas which need improvements.

One I found and which I will fix is that the database index file at startup
is read character by character. For an actual database with 200 Megabyte
index file size this needs close to a minute. Reading it in blocks like it
is done for the game file needs not more than a second. Somebody already saw
the problem and defined the character read method inline, which is a real
good joke. I have to figure out how to define a useful file class hierarchy,
so the resulting version needs some effort.

The other task I see is to split up tkscid.cpp. It contains 35% of the
overall cpp source code, because it implements three functionalities:
Interface for TCL/TK, application functionality, database class
functionality. There should be a class Database, a class Application and a
tkscid.cpp with the TCL/TK interface code calling them. By the way this
would also allow in future to work on multiple databases in parallel.

 

But before I invest more time I would like to know a bit more about the
state of the SCID project. Last release was nearly one year ago, and from
then the source nearly remained unchanged. I save a lot of time when I start
to develop only for private use, so I would like to know it in advance.

 

Regards,

 

Gerd Lorscheid

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Re: [Scid-users] Search headers

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello Steven,

thank you for your work. I needed some time to verify your patch file as the
patch command of the MKS Tools did not work. So I patched the original
source using a Unix live CD. If I specify Anand as annotator I get around
400 games with his comments. I have tried to work around the naming issue,
because with Anand all annotator strings including Anand are found. So it
should for example find also Kasparov;Anand.

Gerd

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Steven [mailto:stevena...@yahoo.com] 
Gesendet: Montag, 27. September 2010 12:46
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: [Scid-users] Fw: Re: Re: Search headers

Attached is a patch for Gerd's latest contribution.
If it's meant to find games with comments of the form [Annotator Anand, V]
I'm afraid it didn't seem to work for me, though why i haven't looked -
sorry.

Aside.. The handling of player names in scid is very weak. eg:
Anand
Anand V
Anand Viswanathan
Anand Viswanathan (IND)
Anand, V
Anand, V.
Anand, Viswanathan

are all separate, and need spell checking to reconcile.

Surely Scid should be able to realise
NAME, A. , NAME, A , NAME A. and NAME A are identical But i guess
there's grey areas here too.

Steve

-

--- On Sat, 25/9/10, gerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de
gerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de wrote:

From:
 gerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de gerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de
Subject: Re: Re: [Scid-users] Search headers
To: Steven stevena...@yahoo.com
Received: Saturday, 25 September, 2010, 12:01 AM

Hello, 
  
 I have extracted the changes based on the source of 3.Sep.2010. So it has
the same base as my last changes for the filter split, but both changes are
independent and do not include each other. If you cannot merge in two
changes to the same base you should do the filter first, because it includes
much more single changes. I have included the complete changed source files,
so nothing is missing anymore and for you it is easy to create the diffs. I
had a look to kdiff, which I am using but it seems not to contain a unified
diff output. 
 Let me know if I can help. 
  
 Gerd 



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[Scid-users] Context menu comments

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

 

I have implemented another small improvement:

 

Today if a user wants to replace a ? by a ! he has to open or find the
comment window, remove the ?, add the ! and then to save it.

I have added options to the context menu of the pgn window  so that for the
same use case he only needs to click on the ! option in this context menu.
The old ? symbol is removed as part of this. The same works also for
position evaluations +-, +/- etc. The remaining symbols have still  to be
set using the comment window. If there are multiple symbols for one move the
!, ? etc is added as the first one.

 

Again it would be nice if somebody adds it to the main code stream.

 

Gerd



comments.patch
Description: Binary data
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Re: [Scid-users] Search headers

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hi,

 

when starting to implement I found the searched option under find games
with flags, where I for understandable reasons never searched them.

 

Gerd

 

Von: Gerd Lorscheid [mailto:gerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. September 2010 19:54
An: 'scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net'
Betreff: Search headers

 

Hello,

 

To the Search Header window I have some comments.

 

Assume I would like to find the wins with White between Kasparov and Karpov.
The natural try working with all other programs I know is to put Kasparov as
white and Karpov as black, ignore the colors and mark only 1-0 as result. In
Scid this instead finds all winning games of Kasparov with white or black
against Karpov. This is not only unusual, it contradicts also the  what is
shown on the search window. There you find 1-0 and not First listed
player wins.

A fix is very simple, if users share my opinion. 

 

I am able to search for a lot of stuff, a lot of it in my view useless, but
a very obvious one is missing. A use case is for example that I want to
learn a new opening so I navigate through its variations and obviously would
like to find annotated games to get some overview and background
information. I did not find a possibility to search/filter for annotated
games. There seems also no other way except scrolling through the list
window. 

So I will have a look how to add this option.

 

Regards,

 

Gerd Lorscheid 

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[Scid-users] Search headers

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

 

To the Search Header window I have some comments.

 

Assume I would like to find the wins with White between Kasparov and Karpov.
The natural try working with all other programs I know is to put Kasparov as
white and Karpov as black, ignore the colors and mark only 1-0 as result. In
Scid this instead finds all winning games of Kasparov with white or black
against Karpov. This is not only unusual, it contradicts also the  what is
shown on the search window. There you find 1-0 and not First listed
player wins.

A fix is very simple, if users share my opinion. 

 

I am able to search for a lot of stuff, a lot of it in my view useless, but
a very obvious one is missing. A use case is for example that I want to
learn a new opening so I navigate through its variations and obviously would
like to find annotated games to get some overview and background
information. I did not find a possibility to search/filter for annotated
games. There seems also no other way except scrolling through the list
window. 

So I will have a look how to add this option.

 

Regards,

 

Gerd Lorscheid 

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Re: [Scid-users] Some thoughts about filters

[Gerd Lorscheid]

 

 

Von: Fulvio [mailto:f...@libero.it] 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 7. September 2010 15:11
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Some thoughts about filters

 

gerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de wrote:



My proposal was that for each database the game listing window can have its own 
filter. As now there is only one game listing window the filter can be 
associated to the database.

I still don't understand what you propose to do.
Actually scid have only windows for all. one board, one PGN window, one Game 
List, etc..
It's a limit, but all is designed around that, the concept of current database.
So if you open 2 databases and the PGN windows, the Game List, the 
Database Switcher and NOT the Tree Window.
Then open a game and go on for some moves.
With the Database Switcher change database: the board is set to start 
position, the Game List and PGN windows is too updated with the new 
database.
Again open a game and skip some moves.
When you change database with the Database Switcher the board, PGN windows, 
and Game List correctly shows the current database status.

Do you want to have multiple Game List windows associated to one database?
The ability to save a filter so it can be retrieved in the future?
Create a new window that shows the search results so that a new search don't 
override the others?



 

 

If you have one database A and the game list window you can  create a filter F 
for it. Then you switch to a second database B and its games are shown without 
filter.

You can define a filter G for it. When you now switch back to A you get back 
also filter F. This works today, if you define the filter on the database. It 
limits the number of game listing windows per database to one, but today it is 
globally one anyway. Missing is that the games cannot be filtered by the 
current board except by opening tree windows which then reset the header filter 
after each move.





The filter looks like the filter today with the additional functionality that 
the position on the board can be part of this filter. 

What does this means?



So you can specify Kasparaov as a player and add the board position and you get 
all games of Kasparov matching the current position.

Actually this is done by:
1) pressing ctr+shift+b
2) click search
3) click close
4) ctrl+shift+h
5) writing Kasparov as white player
6) selecting Ignore colors
7) selecting AND (restrict filter)
8) click search
9) click close

Are you proposing to do that in an automatic way?



 

 

No I want to follow Kasparovs games when moving on the board. What you propose 
is a static filter, it will not update when moving on the board. What I was 
telling you can achieve by copying the games of Kasparov to the clipboard or a 
dedicated database and then open a tree window for this database. Now the list 
window shows what I aiming for.

 

 

 (Today you get this implicit when open a tree window on this database, but 
there is no reason to combine these features.)

This is not true. If you open a tree window on this database your filter is 
reseted and updated with all the games that contain the actual position.
So you lose the Kasparov filter




 

See last remark.

 

Then each tree window gets its private header filter. This allows to reduce the 
games involved in the statistics. 

This is what i tried and i don't liked it.
As i said i made the tree window search only the games in the filter (it 
requires very few lines of codes).
The problem is that with two databases i usually takes the two tree windows 
opened at the same times, and in that way is not possible.



 

As I told before. In this story I am interested to get rid of one global 
filter, which is affected by lots of different types of operations. Once this 
is implemented you can allow multiple tree views on one database with different 
header filters or you can keep it as it is. So it can be discussed 
independently in a different story. 

 

 

So moving on the board does not change or reset any filter.

I agree with this.



It only changes the content of the windows which have the current position as 
part of their filter.

As i said, i can't figure exactly what you want to do.
Bye, Fulvio

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[Scid-users] Some thoughts about filters

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello

 

First example:

 

I have two databases A and B, a game list window and a tree window for A.

I create a new game in A and move 1.b2-b4. The games are filtered and the
statistics 

for possible responses is shown. Now I switch to B, create there also a new
game and 

move 1.g2-g4. The tree window is updated, the game list window still shows
all games 

for B. Now I switch back to database A and then on the board there is still
1.g2-g4 

and my first new game is gone and nobody asked me before. Ok. here it was
only one 

move, but it could be more...

 

Second example:

I have a database and a tree window for it. 

I put in some moves and see the games with this position. Now I want to see
the Kasparov

games with this position from 1980 to 1985. I can use Find Text at the
bottom of the game 

list but this finds only his first game. So I can set up a header filter and
find the games.

There are 20 so I do an additional move on the board. Now the header filter
is lost and I 

have to create it again...

 

Now think about the third example combining the first two. I guess there are
not many users

still knowing what is going on. I think mixing up the header filter with the
board positions

creates unpredictable situations.

 

So my idea is:

1. If you have a game loaded in database A and B, you switch between these
games when you

   switch the database. It is not possible to see the game of A, if B is the
actual database.

   No data loss anymore.

2. The game listing of each database, each tree window has its dedicated
filter. For the game window

The filter consists of the same parts as today. Moving a peace on the
board does only update the

position filter if activated and keeps the others. For the tree window
the filter can be a just a header

   filter. So if the user switches the database from A to B  the game
listing shows the games with the filter

   of B. No global filter anymore.

 

So I can set up a header filter for my game list window to view only
Kasparov games between 

1980 and 1985 and then I can move on the board and see still only his
matching games. If I have

a tree window open, I can decide whether the games in the game window are
filtered also.

I can set up a header filter for the tree window to limit the statistics to
players with

a rating of 2400 or more. Today I maintain a top database with these games
to get a 

reasonable statistics for a position. At the same time I have to maintain a
complete 

database of 4.500.000 games for preparation of potential opponents. So I can
do both with 

the same database and the statistics calculation would ignore 70% of its
games and still 

be fast. The current Find text window would no longer be needed and could be
replaced by 

a button to open the filter. The resulting behavior of the system is
predictable. 

Each browser has its own filter, resets are not done sometimes somewhere in
the background

but only by the user himself.

 

If  there is an agreement to go for this and somebody updates the UI parts,
I will try to 

update the C++ parts.   

 

 

Comments are wellcome

 

Gerd Lorscheid

 

 

 

 

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[Scid-users] Small improvements

[Gerd Lorscheid]

  Hello,

I have again some remarks - without source code. But for this I have an 
excuse, because my notebook has been stolen and I will have a 
development environment not before end of next month. But so I was 
forced to use Scid for the tournament I played. But the first I promise 
to implement as soon my environment is back.

If the e.g. user clicks on e4 in the initial position, there is only one 
legal move matching this field e2-e4. So it would be nice, if Scid could 
recognize this and perform this move. This allows entering games faster.

If a user opens a game window the natural next task is to replay the 
game. So the game window should get the focus. Otherwise the user has to 
click first on it before he can use the cursors.

If a treeview window is part of the startup configuration it should be 
initially disabled. Otherwise it may build the statistic for the initial 
position for a large database and so slow done the startup a couple of 
seconds.

A bit more complicated is the following. If I have a treeview open for a 
large database, Scid is blocked after each move until the statistics of 
the new position is calculated. This is anoying if you want to put in 
several moves. If the user starts to add a second move, the current 
calculation of the statistics is obsolete and should stop. Basicely this 
is what the engines do, because they run in a dedicated process and scid 
can still handle user input on the board. Implemention depends on the 
TCL environment (e.g. thread handling), so I do not know how it is possible.

When I load a game through the game list sometimes the list jumps back 
to the first game. If I review a list of 100 games, load number 10 - it 
jumps to 1 -  go back to 10 to find game 15 interesting - the list again 
jumps back... It seems to happen more often when scrolling is done 
through the slider and less through the forward button.

The PGN handling is a bid strange. It is possible to open PGN databases 
normaly, but it is not possible to create them or copy games to them. 
But exactly this functionality is implemented and accessible through 
extra menue items under export and import.

 Regards, Gerd




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[Scid-users] Usablity issues

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

 

I played a bit around with Scid, because I wanted to show the program as
alternative to Chessbase the next days. So I replayed a game and wanted to
comment a move with a question-mark. So how to do it. I followed Windows
guidelines, clicked on this move and pressed the right mouse button. Now I
got the offer to remove all comments - interesting as there were no ones in
the game. But I wanted to add a comment and there was no option and no hint.
So next I thought: Let's try Alt-C and see what happens. What happened was a
busy-loop of the program. I had to stop it with help of the task-manager.

Usability of Chessbase in many areas is bad, it does also not follow
standards. But usability of Scid is even worse. I think it would help the
project much more to improve here than adding feature after feature.

 

Gerd Lorscheid

 

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Re: [Scid-users] Usablity issues

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello again,

 

I finished too early. After finding out that there is a comment window which
I have to open e.g. from the menu bar, I want to remove a game and searching
the game list in the menu bar. But there is nothing, but surprisingly there
right mouse click option in the games window. It creates a D entry wide on
the right side of the table. So first I did not see it as I have only a 1920
monitor. No I have to search how to compact the database..

Ok, somebody will say that I can configure the UI to enhance this. This is
true as I have some experience with computers and with chess databases. But
I wish that Scid does not loose so many potential users, which try it once
and then never again.

 

Gerd Lorscheid

 

 

Von: Gerd Lorscheid [mailto:gerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. Juni 2010 21:30
An: 'scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net'
Betreff: Usablity issues

 

Hello,

 

I played a bit around with Scid, because I wanted to show the program as
alternative to Chessbase the next days. So I replayed a game and wanted to
comment a move with a question-mark. So how to do it. I followed Windows
guidelines, clicked on this move and pressed the right mouse button. Now I
got the offer to remove all comments - interesting as there were no ones in
the game. But I wanted to add a comment and there was no option and no hint.
So next I thought: Let's try Alt-C and see what happens. What happened was a
busy-loop of the program. I had to stop it with help of the task-manager.

Usability of Chessbase in many areas is bad, it does also not follow
standards. But usability of Scid is even worse. I think it would help the
project much more to improve here than adding feature after feature.

 

Gerd Lorscheid

 

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Re: [Scid-users] Usablity issues

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello Alexander,

you are right, but this is not my point. My point is there is no consistent
way, a typical new user (one which does not read manuals) can find out how
to perform elementary tasks.
- If you right click on a move there should be an option Add comment,
which maybe just opens the comment window.
- The Game menu should have an option Mark as deleted
- The deleted flag should be per default the first one in the database game
listing. As alternative deleted entries could be grayed out. 
- If a user right clicks on a deleted game he gets the option to compact the
data
The idea is simple. Imagine there is a new user looking for an alternative
to Chessbase. What will he try first: Create a database, create a new game
with variations and comments, remove it ... These tasks should be intuitive
without reading the manual.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Alexander Wagner [mailto:a.wag...@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. Juni 2010 22:46
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Cc: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Usablity issues

Gerd Lorscheid wrote:

Hi!

 I finished too early. After finding out that there is a comment window 
 which I have to open e.g. from the menu bar, I want to remove a game and 
 searching the game list in the menu bar. But there is nothing, but 
 surprisingly there right mouse click option in the games window. It 
 creates a D entry wide on the right side of the table. So first I did 
 not see it as I have only a 1920 monitor. No I have to search how to 
 compact the database….

This is working as designed. It does absolutely not make any sense to 
compact a database all the time.

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 |Freedom is Slavery.
Alexander Wagner| Ignorance is Strength.
 |
 | Theory : G. Orwell, 1984
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Re: [Scid-users] Usablity issues

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hi,

I have created the following default configuration:

On the left there is the chessboard.
On the right there is
* A database switcher with three databases: My games, My analysis,
Reference database loaded by startup through a shortcut
* Game notation window
* Game tree of the reference database
* Analysis engine
* Database listing window with deleted mark as first item.

Now the user can replay his game in My games, see what strong players play
in the same position through the game tree window, see what the engine would
like and manage database content. I needed some time to figure out this
setup and will tell the kids not to touch it. So the interesting question
is: How can this setup made easier for a user, who have not used chess
databases for twenty years. An answer may be (if there is nothing better) to
offer an wizard at the first startup which queries the needs of the user and
setting up more complex environments.

Gerd



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Gerd Lorscheid [mailto:gerd.lorsch...@onlinehome.de] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. Juni 2010 23:07
An: 'Alexander Wagner'
Cc: 'scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net'
Betreff: AW: [Scid-users] Usablity issues

Hello Alexander,

you are right, but this is not my point. My point is there is no consistent
way, a typical new user (one which does not read manuals) can find out how
to perform elementary tasks.
- If you right click on a move there should be an option Add comment,
which maybe just opens the comment window.
- The Game menu should have an option Mark as deleted
- The deleted flag should be per default the first one in the database game
listing. As alternative deleted entries could be grayed out. 
- If a user right clicks on a deleted game he gets the option to compact the
data
The idea is simple. Imagine there is a new user looking for an alternative
to Chessbase. What will he try first: Create a database, create a new game
with variations and comments, remove it ... These tasks should be intuitive
without reading the manual.

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Alexander Wagner [mailto:a.wag...@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de] 
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 30. Juni 2010 22:46
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Cc: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Usablity issues

Gerd Lorscheid wrote:

Hi!

 I finished too early. After finding out that there is a comment window 
 which I have to open e.g. from the menu bar, I want to remove a game and 
 searching the game list in the menu bar. But there is nothing, but 
 surprisingly there right mouse click option in the games window. It 
 creates a D entry wide on the right side of the table. So first I did 
 not see it as I have only a 1920 monitor. No I have to search how to 
 compact the database….

This is working as designed. It does absolutely not make any sense to 
compact a database all the time.

-- 

Kind regards,/ War is Peace.
 |Freedom is Slavery.
Alexander Wagner| Ignorance is Strength.
 |
 | Theory : G. Orwell, 1984
/  In practice:   USA, since 2001


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Re: [Scid-users] Build for windows

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

I have adapted for myself the makefile.vc and the source with few #ifdefs to
build it with the Visual Studio nmake. If there are more interested people
it may make sense to merge it into the code stream. Until now I had no time
to create a visual studio project out of it, which was my original goal.

Gerd



-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Joost 't Hart [mailto:joost.t.h...@planet.nl] 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 4. Mai 2010 22:51
An: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: [Scid-users] Build for windows

Hi guys,

For some particular reason I have developed the ambition to build scid 
myself for windoze.

Downloaded VC++ 2008
Downloaded Active Tcl8.5.etc

Any clues how to continue from there?

The makefile.vc in CVS seems grossly outdated (e.g. referring to 
Tcl8.4), so my suspicion is that nmake will not render anything useful.

Thanks for advice,
Joost.


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Re: [Scid-users] Scid 4.1

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

 

it is useless to save settings for base 1 or base 2, but why not save them
for the file system path of the database. So they are reused when the
database is opened again. This brings me back to the point that it would be
helpful if scid is able to reopen databases at startup automatically. It
should also remember which of them had been  opened in tree mode. It would
save a lot of clicks at each startup, because I have a reference database,
one with my games, one with my analysis.

 

Gerd  

 

 

Von: Pascal Georges [mailto:pascal.georg...@free.fr] 
Gesendet: Samstag, 2. Januar 2010 09:15
An: Joost 't Hart
Cc: Scid Users List
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Scid 4.1

 

 

2010/1/1 Joost 't Hart joost.t.h...@planet.nl

Pascal Georges wrote:
 Hi,

 I wish you a happy new year, everybody.

 I will release Scid 4.1 very soon : are there any comments, bugs,
 pending translations ?

 Pascal

Hi Pascal, very same to you!

Yes.

1) I have this pending issue on tree options not being stored (posted on
dec 23rd)


Each base has its own options set. If base 1 has set mode to slow, base 2
has set mode to fast and slow, I doubt the user will reopen the next time
the bases in the same order, hence the saving of options is confusing. Same
thing for the cache : it does not make sense to always save the cache,
because you don't want to fill it with second order lines. It the options
were global (the same for all opened bases), this would have made sense but
not in that case.
 

2) Another minor thing: If you opt to comment all moves during
annotation and the evaluation of the best and played move goes down
(compared to evaluation during the previous ply due to horizon effect in
engine), this move is annotated with (e.g.) ?!
This does not make sense. I think a ??, ?, ?! should only be given for
moves that are thought not to be the best moves.


If the engine made a wrong evaluation due to horizon effect, the only real
solution is to analyze backwards, which is still a pending work. 

Pascal

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Re: [Scid-users] Remove twin games

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

Aquarium supports both position trees and ChessAssistant sequential game
databases. 
When I work on opening preparations I am interested in trees and would like
to see comments for a position whenever it is on the board. But when I
prepare for an opponent or just want to replay some interesting games (it
would be nice to get Huebners 25 annotated games as a database) I want to
see only the comments of one author.
What I would like to do is to find and delete identical duplicates
(including comments and vars) of commented games. I never want to delete
duplicate games with different comments. The use case is that I may get a
new version of a database, which I have already imported. 
Also there should be some fuzzy compare on header data instead of comparing
just the first four characters. Maybe just the first character is written
differently.
To merge two copies of the same games with different annotators I do not
like at all. You lose the context of the comments. Chessbase claims to be
able to do this but the results are messy.

Gerd Lorscheid 

-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Benoit St-Pierre [mailto:benbon...@gmail.com] 
Gesendet: Dienstag, 8. Dezember 2009 17:28
An: Alexander Wagner
Cc: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Remove twin games

Alex,

I fully understand that it does not solve the problem you are
addressing.  It would merely dissolve it.  You are right in saying
that there are some comments that deserve to stay into a single game.
Your example shows that one would like to annotate a particular game,
in which case it makes sense to annotate into a game.  But you must
also consider that most of theorical annotations could and should stay
outside particular games.  That would solve lots of annotating
problems, most of mine, at least.  That's the way of the future, in my
humble opinion, along with strict games IDs, of course.

I just wanted to promote a very, very interesting feature.  Hijacking
your thread seemed like less noise than writing a new one.

Sorry for the disturbance,

B


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Re: [Scid-users] SCID books/trees compared to Rybka Aquarium

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hi,

The handling of epd files in scid comes very close to what Aquarium does
with its databases. If I have an open epd it shows information associated to
the position on the main board. 
But:
The epd window in scid is very basic. Instead of providing just a text field
it would be better to support just some epd field types (e.g. comment,
evaluation, search depth, best move) of the epd format and support them
better. I still don't know the semantic of the lower field, because I always
get an exception when I click on it. 
Aquarium knows something like epd configurations, where you define that you
want to get comments from one epd file, evaluations from two others. The
result is shown in one integrated window as part of the main window. 
You can copy from Chessok epd databases with the basic computer evaluation
of millions of positions. So the standard epd format is like pgn to exchange
information. An internal optimized format to work with amount of data is
necessary.
Once you have this you can write an algorithm, which uses an engine to
evaluate a position, stores the results in the epd, finds interesting
alternatives to the main line at any depth and continues there. The
evaluation of these positions then may change also the evaluation of the
initial position (alpha-beta calculations). With Aquarium you can run this
over night. The next morning you need something, which translates the
results into a readable format. For example it creates a normal game
notation from the initial position with all interesting alternatives as
variations. Then you can put your name on it and sell it to Chessbase :-)

Gerd


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: Alexander Wagner [mailto:a.wag...@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de] 
Gesendet: Sonntag, 26. April 2009 13:05
An: Gerd Lorscheid
Cc: 'Scid Users List'
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] SCID books/trees compared to Rybka Aquarium

Gerd Lorscheid wrote:

Hi!

 Aquarium and there IDEA use a different database format. It stores not 
 games but positions plus e.g. evaluations.

This, however, sound quite similar to the way tree masks work in Scid...

 Without this IDEA is hard to 
 implement and even with such a database format the algorithm has to be 
 implemented.

This remains true, however.

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Kind regards,/ War is Peace.
 |Freedom is Slavery.
Alexander Wagner| Ignorance is Strength.
 |
 | Theory : G. Orwell, 1984
/  In practice:   USA, since 2001


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Re: [Scid-users] Re : Scid usability issues

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello,

I just follow this old thread to describe some of my experiences. Some
points may not be valid, because I don't know the product good enough...

My goal is still to annotate a game or to analyze a variation. So I open my
reference database in tree mode, open from there the window with the top
games. Then I open the game I want to analyze from a different database. If
I now move around I can see the statistics from the reference database, and
the best games with the current position in the top games window. 
What I do not see in the top game window is which of these games are
commented and who created the comments. OK, I replay games from top players,
but there may be an important game X-Y commented by a top player and for
sure I will miss it. 
If I load a game from the top games window into the browser and I have some
doubts about its quality or the quality of its comments, I can do nothing. I
cannot start the engine. I cannot find out who created the comment. I even
cannot easily copy the game to the clipboard to do such things. OK, somehow
I can get what I want, but too much clicks for something I do a hundred
times during one session.
When I want to add an question mark to a move. I have to open the annotation
window. This creates for unknown reason 100% CPU load on one processor. This
is a bug, but setting elementary comments should work through shortcuts.
I have converted my database from Chessbase format through PGN to SI3.
Chessbase displays standard annotations (Chess-Informant symbols) in PGN as
something like $12. When converting to si3 these comments are not
converted. So a lot of very valuable information is lost.

Gerd Lorscheid 


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[Scid-users] Scid usability issues

[Gerd Lorscheid]

I have the following usability issues with scid:

I am used to have a small database containing games with my own analysis. To
update one of these games I open it, search for interesting positions, look
for (new) games in my large reference database with this position, replay
them and then update my game and replace it in my small database. This use
case is essential for a chess database application and perfectly supported
e.g. by chessbase. When I try the same with scid, I open the reference
database as tree, open my small database, load one of its games and go to
the interesting position. When I now switch to the reference database, the
game in my window also switches to the first game in the reference database,
which contains the actual position. So

there is no chance to e.g. merge an interesting game or variation into my
analysis game. I have to remember the lines, switch back into my small
database and update my game per hand.

I think it is not logical to switch the content of the board when switching
the database. Switching the game should be a voluntary action of the user.
It should be possible to merge games of different databases. If the game
window maintains a stack of loaded games (for the unchanged ones this
requires just references) and the user can switch back to previous loaded
games by a back button, this requirement would be implemented in an optimal
way. A workaround could be to implement at least a kind of copy and paste,
so that I can copy a variation or game, switch the database and then paste
the content into a game of the other database.

 

What I also would like, if scid comes up in the same state it was closed
before. It should load the same databases, open the same (detached) windows
with the same location on the screen. Ideally it would even recover
unsaved games. This would allow me to continue working at the point I have
stopped before and it  would be  a nice feature compared to chessbase.

 

Gerd Lorscheid

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Re: [Scid-users] Scid usability issues

[Gerd Lorscheid]

Hello Pascal,

 

I am sorry but I cannot follow you. The use case I described is basic to
annotate a game or keep own opening analysis up to date. It is also very
natural to store the own analysis not in a growing  reference database with
more than 1.000.000 games, but in a separate private small database. If I
have to copy my analysis all the time to the reference database whenever I
want to update it and afterwards back and then delete it in there …,
something went wrong!

You are right the game list is a function local to a base. But if the
database is in tree mode, the position in the game on the board is just a
filter for these gamelist. It does not matter to which database this game
belongs. Also merging a game from the list into the game shown on the board
does not require any additional (visible) UI functionality. It is just:
“merge this game [into the game on the board]”.

 

A note related to the other point. I found how to save a windows layout, but
it ignores detached windows.

 

Gerd

 

Von: Pascal Georges [mailto:pascal.georg...@free.fr] 
Gesendet: Montag, 16. März 2009 22:15
An: Alexander Wagner
Cc: scid-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Betreff: Re: [Scid-users] Scid usability issues

 

 

2009/3/16 Alexander Wagner a.wag...@physik.uni-wuerzburg.de

Pascal Georges wrote:

Hi!

 

   Anyway, the behaviour of Scid was changed here only
   recently. Actually, the intention was to be more logical.
   The original behaviour was as you describe as your wish. But
   indeed your're right, it broke merging games from the list
   of games indeed, this menu point does not make sense
   anymore. 
I don't follow you : could you explain ?

 

I remember some discussion of this point in the past and you
changed Scids code to show the first game of the filter if
one switches databases. In the past, Scid stayed on the very
game one was at regardless of DB switching. This is what
changed.


When a search is performed, the first game in the filter is loaded (quite
logical). That's all. This has nothing to do with the discussion about the
board reflecting selected base.
 


Now:

- Open a base A, go to some game Z at some position there.

- Open a base B, say as tree. The filter will set for the
 very position as in base A, however, right now you're
 still in game Z.

- Switch to base B.
 Now, your are at the first game of the filter for base B,
 this is actually game Y, and indeed at the position you
 were looking at in base A.

 But you're in a different game. You're now in game Y.
 That is the important point here.

- Open the games list.

- Right click on the first game in the list, choose Merge
 game. This will now try to merge game Y with game Y!


Of course. The merge function in game list merges the game you click on to
the loaded game. You should have clicked on game Y2. Those functions are
unrelated (Tree and Game list). 



 = It does not work, you can not merge a game with
 itself, even if you can, it just doesn't make sense.


Indeed.
 



 Even if you open the context menu of the second game in
 the list and call merge the same way, it will be merged
 into game Y, that is the merged game would live in base B.
 Your merged lines will not live in Z in base A as your
 intention was.


Game list is a function local to a base. It does not work between two bases.
For that games have to be copied from one base to another. Note that merging
games between two bases is not hard technically, but a simple UI to do that
is missing. To copy games to the target base may be less error prone
(clipbase is there for that).
 


The more I think about Gerds comment the more I feel he's
right: switching bases should probably not change the games.


I think it would be an horrible mess. Maybe some entries are missing like
merge this game to current game in base X. Nothing more.

Pascal

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