RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I like said, he reads like one of those racists who see themselves as enlightened and as you said, who will point to Latinos and Asians as to why our perspective is “crazy,” and use it as an excuse to not listen or open their minds. It is not intentional; it is unconscious. The only way he could be convinced is if he took an unconscious bias test. The problem is if you think you do not have it why would you take it unless you were force to. From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:33 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? Those are the two women I was referencing, thanks, I'd forgotten Duella's name. Could only remember her being called Dee. I used to listen to Moore's BSG podcast. It was really good: every week he'd replay the entire show, and comment on it. When the religious leader was killed, he actually laughed on the podcast, saying of her death, So long--we're barely knew you! (Chuckles). That bothered me, both because it was a black woman, and because I didn't see anything funny in a character who was important to the journey being bumped off. Struck me as odd... I couldn't get why so important a character was bumped off like that, in an apparently throwaway manner. As for Duella, yeah, she bothered me a lot too. She really was used to move others' stories along. Aside from my irritation at her only being put with white men--back to my question, where are the brothers?--I was irritated her character was so incomplete. I'd be interested in hearing Moore's views on the subject. Maybe he'd point to the Latino men and Asian woman and say he can't please everyone? - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 8, 2010 2:25:08 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? WARNING SPOILERS BELOW I remember two black women. Duella and the religious woman. The religious woman was killed off before anything could be done with her character. Duella’s character always bothered me. Most times, she seemed like a filler character and was occasionally used to move the story along for other characters. Also she has what I used to call the “Claudia and Brian syndrome”. Waaay back in the day, I used to watch General Hospital and they had this Black couple that they showcased as proof of diversity. We heard about their problems and issues like other characters, but unlike other characters, we were never exposed to the gory details or their stories. They were always coming and going. Duella had a relationship with the guy that worked for the president, but we never got any info on it until they decided to kill him off. She was also used to create tension between Apollo and Starbuck, but we never got to see how she became a devoted wife to Lee. She was not even dating him. We saw them divorce and she was gone. Very little exploration of their relationship. She was supposed to be close to Adama like the Asian girl, but unlike the Asian girl, we were never able to really see how they were close. We saw her be supposedly mellow and off herself, with one wrinkled brow provided as a clue to how she was really upset. We were able it be exposed to the nuances of the characters of other people of color on the show. Tori, the guy who lost his leg, but not Duella. The only time I saw otherwise was when they were doing an episode on planet-based bias, ironically. But in my view, it was done to help Bruce Davidson storyline. The man does not have a problem with people of color in general, but he does with Blacks, in my view. From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:07 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was thinking the same thing a bit ago, Tracey, while making myself a milk shake (hey, it's my alcohol! Sugar free, of course!) I kept wondering how BSG/Caprica can be so devoid of important black men when Moore and crew crafted such a strong one in Sisko. I too wondered, did he simply inherit Sisko and worked with the character to make him good? As such, he could be an example of that most problematic of people: someone who doesn't see color (or thinks he doesn't), and who doesn't like to make what he thinks are some kind of quota/affirmative action based decisions. And thus, being what they think is colorblind, they continue to populate their worlds with people who look like them, and never realize how others are being overlooked. How do you think he's done with black women on BSG/Caprica? I can only recall the black religious leader who guided the President
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
One thing that always bothers me is that even in fictional circumstances no one bothers to take chances. For example Jack n' the box recently made a commercial where Jack the owner of the chain was talking to the president. The president was white even though Obama has been in office for a year. This reminded me of a scifi series in the 90s where white people were in the minority and the government was mostly hispanic. AI don't remember much else about the show except I think it was made from a book that was written by Shatner. Anyone know which show I am thinking of? On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 10:47 PM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.netwrote: A lot of this is *having* to leave your comfort zone. There's a saying in Hollywood, Women and girls will see movies with men and boys, but men and boys won't see movies with women and girls. I have always expanded that to include the H'Wood sentiment, People of color will see films with white leads, but whites won't see films with black leads. At least, that's why H'Wood brands movies with two main black leads black films, and fears their success with white and European audiences. Whites have been able for centuries to live and work in a world where they haven't had to deal with people of color in meaningful ways. They gave us Captain Kirk and Superman and Batman and white Presidents, and we accepted it because we felt we had no choice until we gained more political, financial, and social power. Similarly, women have had much of their lives and representations dictated to them by men who've controlled their fates. White men haven't really had to deal with not being in charge of everything. I think a lot of this Tea Party crap is frankly a bunch of disgruntled people in the majority who hate a world where people of color, non-Christians, gays, etc., are demanding more of a voice. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 8:50:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I think that its not that they are afraid of getting heat from doing something wrong but it just never dawn on them to write anything other than what they already know. Basically, a white male writes about white males, a white woman writes about white women. There are exceptions (Tarantino, Law and Order) and variations (My big fat greek wedding for example.) but for the most part they are mirroring. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Adrianne Brennan adrianne.bren...@gmail.com wrote: Actually I'd chalk it up to fear. Fear of doing something un-PC/racist/inaccurate in the process and get slammed for it. And it's really a shame. Unfortunately race is such a loaded issue people would rather avoid it than tackle it head on. As far as what I'm working on at present, here's a good example: I have a main char who is a vampire in NOLA. I have long considered the idea that she is of a mixed racial background and maybe even at one point hid that fact on purpose. It'd be a very interesting plot to tackle and would make her background that much more interesting. What I first have to do is research NOLA in the very early 20th century (which is when she would've been around) and get a better sense of how a woman of her background would've fared before and after being Turned in that time period--and take it from there. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com wrote: I think Caucasian writers never think of people of color unless they socialize with them. How else do we end up with tv shows like Seinfeld and Friends? NYC is extremely diverse and yet you have two examples of a show where even the extras are 98% white. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Martin Baxter truthseeker...@hotmail.com wrote: Adrianne, I write Afrocentric from my protagonists' standpoint, but my supporting characters are of all races, drawing from my own past. In defense of Caucasian writers, they may not be able to bridge that divide for the same reason. There simply may be no one of color in their circle for them to draw on example-wise, even in this exalted day and age. -- Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I think the with the writers strike happening around that time frame they decided to progress things a bit. But you are correct, they could have showed their relationship more. Maybe they were afraid of showing an interracial couple? Interracial couples, and other types of relationships are usually sexless in the magical tv world anyway. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: WARNING SPOILERS BELOW I remember two black women. Duella and the religious woman. The religious woman was killed off before anything could be done with her character. Duella’s character always bothered me. Most times, she seemed like a filler character and was occasionally used to move the story along for other characters. Also she has what I used to call the “Claudia and Brian syndrome”. Waaay back in the day, I used to watch General Hospital and they had this Black couple that they showcased as proof of diversity. We heard about their problems and issues like other characters, but unlike other characters, we were never exposed to the gory details or their stories. They were always coming and going. Duella had a relationship with the guy that worked for the president, but we never got any info on it until they decided to kill him off. She was also used to create tension between Apollo and Starbuck, but we never got to see how she became a devoted wife to Lee. She was not even dating him. We saw them divorce and she was gone. Very little exploration of their relationship. She was supposed to be close to Adama like the Asian girl, but unlike the Asian girl, we were never able to really see how they were close. We saw her be supposedly mellow and off herself, with one wrinkled brow provided as a clue to how she was really upset. We were able it be exposed to the nuances of the characters of other people of color on the show. Tori, the guy who lost his leg, but not Duella. The only time I saw otherwise was when they were doing an episode on planet-based bias, ironically. But in my view, it was done to help Bruce Davidson storyline. The man does not have a problem with people of color in general, but he does with Blacks, in my view. *From:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Keith Johnson *Sent:* Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:07 PM *To:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was thinking the same thing a bit ago, Tracey, while making myself a milk shake (hey, it's my alcohol! Sugar free, of course!) I kept wondering how BSG/Caprica can be so devoid of important black men when Moore and crew crafted such a strong one in Sisko. I too wondered, did he simply inherit Sisko and worked with the character to make him good? As such, he could be an example of that most problematic of people: someone who doesn't see color (or thinks he doesn't), and who doesn't like to make what he thinks are some kind of quota/affirmative action based decisions. And thus, being what they think is colorblind, they continue to populate their worlds with people who look like them, and never realize how others are being overlooked. How do you think he's done with black women on BSG/Caprica? I can only recall the black religious leader who guided the President in BSG for a while (died in a bobby trap?), and the sister who worked in CNC on Galactica. She was okay, but I was miffed with her rather slight character, and of course, not brothers for her to date, even though they were always lurking in the background. BSG/Caprica has put Latinoes and Asians in prominent roles--perhaps, are blacks just being left out 'cause there's only so much room at that table, and the seats have been taken? - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 11:58:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I know Moore set trends with Sisco on DS9 with regards to Blacks men having power on TV, but I’ve begun to think that was a fluke resulting from him inheriting Sisco.I think he has some issues with us, but believes himself to be enlightened in this regard. The only evidence to the contrary other then Sisco, which I admit is substantial, is the Joe Morton episode of BSG *From:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Keith Johnson *Sent:* Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:17 PM *To:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? that's what I thought. It really, really bothered me on the prison ship, where the place was lousy with big, bald, black men. And then, Admiral Cain's guards all being black and scowling--made me quite angry. On Caprica, Greystone told his
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Intriguing. Which bias test would he take? I took one of those years ago where you had to quickly choose between two sets of choices that basically boiled down a preference for lighter or darker skin. Think i came out in the middle, but I recall not liking the test. - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 8, 2010 3:03:12 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I like said, he reads like one of those racists who see themselves as enlightened and as you said, who will point to Latinos and Asians as to why our perspective is “crazy,” and use it as an excuse to not listen or open their minds. It is not intentional; it is unconscious. The only way he could be convinced is if he took an unconscious bias test. The problem is if you think you do not have it why would you take it unless you were force to. From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:33 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? Those are the two women I was referencing, thanks, I'd forgotten Duella's name. Could only remember her being called Dee. I used to listen to Moore's BSG podcast. It was really good: every week he'd replay the entire show, and comment on it. When the religious leader was killed, he actually laughed on the podcast, saying of her death, So long--we're barely knew you! (Chuckles). That bothered me, both because it was a black woman, and because I didn't see anything funny in a character who was important to the journey being bumped off. Struck me as odd... I couldn't get why so important a character was bumped off like that, in an apparently throwaway manner. As for Duella, yeah, she bothered me a lot too. She really was used to move others' stories along. Aside from my irritation at her only being put with white men--back to my question, where are the brothers?--I was irritated her character was so incomplete. I'd be interested in hearing Moore's views on the subject. Maybe he'd point to the Latino men and Asian woman and say he can't please everyone? - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 8, 2010 2:25:08 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? WARNING SPOILERS BELOW I remember two black women. Duella and the religious woman. The religious woman was killed off before anything could be done with her character. Duella’s character always bothered me. Most times, she seemed like a filler character and was occasionally used to move the story along for other characters. Also she has what I used to call the “Claudia and Brian syndrome”. Waaay back in the day, I used to watch General Hospital and they had this Black couple that they showcased as proof of diversity. We heard about their problems and issues like other characters, but unlike other characters, we were never exposed to the gory details or their stories. They were always coming and going. Duella had a relationship with the guy that worked for the president, but we never got any info on it until they decided to kill him off. She was also used to create tension between Apollo and Starbuck, but we never got to see how she became a devoted wife to Lee. She was not even dating him. We saw them divorce and she was gone. Very little exploration of their relationship. She was supposed to be close to Adama like the Asian girl, but unlike the Asian girl, we were never able to really see how they were close. We saw her be supposedly mellow and off herself, with one wrinkled brow provided as a clue to how she was really upset. We were able it be exposed to the nuances of the characters of other people of color on the show. Tori, the guy who lost his leg, but not Duella. The only time I saw otherwise was when they were doing an episode on planet-based bias, ironically. But in my view, it was done to help Bruce Davidson storyline. The man does not have a problem with people of color in general, but he does with Blacks, in my view. From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:07 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was thinking the same thing a bit ago, Tracey, while making myself a milk shake (hey, it's my alcohol! Sugar free, of course!) I kept wondering how BSG/Caprica can be so devoid of important black men when Moore and crew crafted such a strong one in Sisko. I too wondered, did he simply inherit Sisko and worked with the character to make him
RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
During the writers’ strike, they had no difficulty developing other storylines and romances of people who were not Black, and they had no trouble showing Tory in a relationship or the character on Caprica in a relationship, so I’m now inclined after years of thinking this guy did not have Black problem to believing that he does From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mr. Worf Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 4:16 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I think the with the writers strike happening around that time frame they decided to progress things a bit. But you are correct, they could have showed their relationship more. Maybe they were afraid of showing an interracial couple? Interracial couples, and other types of relationships are usually sexless in the magical tv world anyway. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: WARNING SPOILERS BELOW I remember two black women. Duella and the religious woman. The religious woman was killed off before anything could be done with her character. Duella’s character always bothered me. Most times, she seemed like a filler character and was occasionally used to move the story along for other characters. Also she has what I used to call the “Claudia and Brian syndrome”. Waaay back in the day, I used to watch General Hospital and they had this Black couple that they showcased as proof of diversity. We heard about their problems and issues like other characters, but unlike other characters, we were never exposed to the gory details or their stories. They were always coming and going. Duella had a relationship with the guy that worked for the president, but we never got any info on it until they decided to kill him off. She was also used to create tension between Apollo and Starbuck, but we never got to see how she became a devoted wife to Lee. She was not even dating him. We saw them divorce and she was gone. Very little exploration of their relationship. She was supposed to be close to Adama like the Asian girl, but unlike the Asian girl, we were never able to really see how they were close. We saw her be supposedly mellow and off herself, with one wrinkled brow provided as a clue to how she was really upset. We were able it be exposed to the nuances of the characters of other people of color on the show. Tori, the guy who lost his leg, but not Duella. The only time I saw otherwise was when they were doing an episode on planet-based bias, ironically. But in my view, it was done to help Bruce Davidson storyline. The man does not have a problem with people of color in general, but he does with Blacks, in my view. From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:07 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was thinking the same thing a bit ago, Tracey, while making myself a milk shake (hey, it's my alcohol! Sugar free, of course!) I kept wondering how BSG/Caprica can be so devoid of important black men when Moore and crew crafted such a strong one in Sisko. I too wondered, did he simply inherit Sisko and worked with the character to make him good? As such, he could be an example of that most problematic of people: someone who doesn't see color (or thinks he doesn't), and who doesn't like to make what he thinks are some kind of quota/affirmative action based decisions. And thus, being what they think is colorblind, they continue to populate their worlds with people who look like them, and never realize how others are being overlooked. How do you think he's done with black women on BSG/Caprica? I can only recall the black religious leader who guided the President in BSG for a while (died in a bobby trap?), and the sister who worked in CNC on Galactica. She was okay, but I was miffed with her rather slight character, and of course, not brothers for her to date, even though they were always lurking in the background. BSG/Caprica has put Latinoes and Asians in prominent roles--perhaps, are blacks just being left out 'cause there's only so much room at that table, and the seats have been taken? - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 11:58:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I know Moore set trends with Sisco on DS9 with regards to Blacks men having power on TV, but I’ve begun to think that was a fluke resulting from him inheriting Sisco.I think he has some issues with us, but believes himself to be enlightened in this regard. The only evidence to the contrary other then Sisco
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
The storylines were shot before they got to that point in time is what I'm getting at. Very little anywhere in Hollywood was shot during the strike. It could have more to do with the casting director and not the actual directors or writers. This is an issue that has come up before and has not been addressed properly yet in Hollywood. When parts are written they automatically suggest a particular race and look for a part. Other smaller parts the outlines may not be as well defined. It is during this process where the problems occur that discriminate against people of color. When they think of a lead role, they will often try to find whomever is in the writer's head at the time. Cattle calls usually end up with a profile like looking for Male 25-35, athletic, martial arts skills 6' - 6.6' blond hair. That right there has eliminated most of the actors. I wonder what would happen if a black male showed up with dyed blond hair? On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:00 AM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: During the writers’ strike, they had no difficulty developing other storylines and romances of people who were not Black, and they had no trouble showing Tory in a relationship or the character on Caprica in a relationship, so I’m now inclined after years of thinking this guy did not have Black problem to believing that he does *From:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Mr. Worf *Sent:* Monday, February 08, 2010 4:16 AM *To:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I think the with the writers strike happening around that time frame they decided to progress things a bit. But you are correct, they could have showed their relationship more. Maybe they were afraid of showing an interracial couple? Interracial couples, and other types of relationships are usually sexless in the magical tv world anyway. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: WARNING SPOILERS BELOW I remember two black women. Duella and the religious woman. The religious woman was killed off before anything could be done with her character. Duella’s character always bothered me. Most times, she seemed like a filler character and was occasionally used to move the story along for other characters. Also she has what I used to call the “Claudia and Brian syndrome”. Waaay back in the day, I used to watch General Hospital and they had this Black couple that they showcased as proof of diversity. We heard about their problems and issues like other characters, but unlike other characters, we were never exposed to the gory details or their stories. They were always coming and going. Duella had a relationship with the guy that worked for the president, but we never got any info on it until they decided to kill him off. She was also used to create tension between Apollo and Starbuck, but we never got to see how she became a devoted wife to Lee. She was not even dating him. We saw them divorce and she was gone. Very little exploration of their relationship. She was supposed to be close to Adama like the Asian girl, but unlike the Asian girl, we were never able to really see how they were close. We saw her be supposedly mellow and off herself, with one wrinkled brow provided as a clue to how she was really upset. We were able it be exposed to the nuances of the characters of other people of color on the show. Tori, the guy who lost his leg, but not Duella. The only time I saw otherwise was when they were doing an episode on planet-based bias, ironically. But in my view, it was done to help Bruce Davidson storyline. The man does not have a problem with people of color in general, but he does with Blacks, in my view. *From:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Keith Johnson *Sent:* Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:07 PM *To:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was thinking the same thing a bit ago, Tracey, while making myself a milk shake (hey, it's my alcohol! Sugar free, of course!) I kept wondering how BSG/Caprica can be so devoid of important black men when Moore and crew crafted such a strong one in Sisko. I too wondered, did he simply inherit Sisko and worked with the character to make him good? As such, he could be an example of that most problematic of people: someone who doesn't see color (or thinks he doesn't), and who doesn't like to make what he thinks are some kind of quota/affirmative action based decisions. And thus, being what they think is colorblind, they continue to populate their worlds with people who look like them, and never realize how others are being overlooked. How do you think he's done with black women on BSG/Caprica? I can only recall the black
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I feel the same way towards all of those end of the world enthusiasts: yes, the world is being destroyed--*THEIR* world! :) ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 1:58 AM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.netwrote: That's cool to hear. I think a lot of people are so entrenched in comfort zones of how the world is, they have trouble accepting change. Some see it as a threat, when the real threat to them is simply the *idea* of change, not any horrible results from that change. A couple of years ago, I had a discussion with a very conservative white dude at my old job. Discussion ranged all over the map: illegal immigration, gay rights, Obama, the Iraq invasion, etc. It was one of those rare times when I cut lose with my true feelings around someone like that at work. The thing was, I was raised as, and remain, a Christian, with Christian views of loving others as myself, helping others, etc. . I have fairly traditional views about how to treat women, marriage, etc. I love America, etc., etc. So this dude and I should have several things in common. However, I'm a very liberal black man who tells it like it is. When I finished making statements about some of my beliefs, he got red faced and said, It's liberals like you who are trying to destroy America. How, I asked him, could my simply wanting people of color, women, gays, and foreigners to have the same advantages in life he had be destroying America? How could my wanting people to abandon non-Christian hatred of those different of them do anything but help this country? I related the conversation to a friend of mine and he said, Keith, realize, to his mind you are trying to destroy America: the safe, comfortable America he grew up in, and that terrifies him.
RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Then perhaps it was coincidental that the difficulties they had with Black characters throughout the entire series seemed similar to what was done during the strike, I do not know, but from my view they were doing more of the same. I do not doublt what you said occurred during the strike, but I do think if you have a problem with your writing thoughout a series, you are not going to be inclined to pull it together during a strike. By the way, I do not think they discriminated against people of color, just Blacks. Indians, Asians, and Latinos, seem to get better treatment From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mr. Worf Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 7:11 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? The storylines were shot before they got to that point in time is what I'm getting at. Very little anywhere in Hollywood was shot during the strike. It could have more to do with the casting director and not the actual directors or writers. This is an issue that has come up before and has not been addressed properly yet in Hollywood. When parts are written they automatically suggest a particular race and look for a part. Other smaller parts the outlines may not be as well defined. It is during this process where the problems occur that discriminate against people of color. When they think of a lead role, they will often try to find whomever is in the writer's head at the time. Cattle calls usually end up with a profile like looking for Male 25-35, athletic, martial arts skills 6' - 6.6' blond hair. That right there has eliminated most of the actors. I wonder what would happen if a black male showed up with dyed blond hair? On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:00 AM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: During the writers’ strike, they had no difficulty developing other storylines and romances of people who were not Black, and they had no trouble showing Tory in a relationship or the character on Caprica in a relationship, so I’m now inclined after years of thinking this guy did not have Black problem to believing that he does From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mr. Worf Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 4:16 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I think the with the writers strike happening around that time frame they decided to progress things a bit. But you are correct, they could have showed their relationship more. Maybe they were afraid of showing an interracial couple? Interracial couples, and other types of relationships are usually sexless in the magical tv world anyway. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: WARNING SPOILERS BELOW I remember two black women. Duella and the religious woman. The religious woman was killed off before anything could be done with her character. Duella’s character always bothered me. Most times, she seemed like a filler character and was occasionally used to move the story along for other characters. Also she has what I used to call the “Claudia and Brian syndrome”. Waaay back in the day, I used to watch General Hospital and they had this Black couple that they showcased as proof of diversity. We heard about their problems and issues like other characters, but unlike other characters, we were never exposed to the gory details or their stories. They were always coming and going. Duella had a relationship with the guy that worked for the president, but we never got any info on it until they decided to kill him off. She was also used to create tension between Apollo and Starbuck, but we never got to see how she became a devoted wife to Lee. She was not even dating him. We saw them divorce and she was gone. Very little exploration of their relationship. She was supposed to be close to Adama like the Asian girl, but unlike the Asian girl, we were never able to really see how they were close. We saw her be supposedly mellow and off herself, with one wrinkled brow provided as a clue to how she was really upset. We were able it be exposed to the nuances of the characters of other people of color on the show. Tori, the guy who lost his leg, but not Duella. The only time I saw otherwise was when they were doing an episode on planet-based bias, ironically. But in my view, it was done to help Bruce Davidson storyline. The man does not have a problem with people of color in general, but he does with Blacks, in my view. From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:07 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was thinking the same thing
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
One thing that is overlooked with the show was the additional footage that was made for the internet. There were a lot of webisodes that included additional screen time for all of the main characters from their points of view. But brotha's character was seriously under utilized. Although it was the most important to the survival of mankind. Here is a video that has a short interview of the actor that played Simon: http://video.syfy.com/shows/battlestar/more/deleted_scenes_2/#shows/battlestar/events_specials/the_plan/its-all-about-character/v1169714 On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:21 AM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: Then perhaps it was coincidental that the difficulties they had with Black characters throughout the entire series seemed similar to what was done during the strike, I do not know, but from my view they were doing more of the same. I do not doublt what you said occurred during the strike, but I do think if you have a problem with your writing thoughout a series, you are not going to be inclined to pull it together during a strike. By the way, I do not think they discriminated against people of color, just Blacks. Indians, Asians, and Latinos, seem to get better treatment *From:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Mr. Worf *Sent:* Monday, February 08, 2010 7:11 AM *To:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? The storylines were shot before they got to that point in time is what I'm getting at. Very little anywhere in Hollywood was shot during the strike. It could have more to do with the casting director and not the actual directors or writers. This is an issue that has come up before and has not been addressed properly yet in Hollywood. When parts are written they automatically suggest a particular race and look for a part. Other smaller parts the outlines may not be as well defined. It is during this process where the problems occur that discriminate against people of color. When they think of a lead role, they will often try to find whomever is in the writer's head at the time. Cattle calls usually end up with a profile like looking for Male 25-35, athletic, martial arts skills 6' - 6.6' blond hair. That right there has eliminated most of the actors. I wonder what would happen if a black male showed up with dyed blond hair? On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:00 AM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: During the writers’ strike, they had no difficulty developing other storylines and romances of people who were not Black, and they had no trouble showing Tory in a relationship or the character on Caprica in a relationship, so I’m now inclined after years of thinking this guy did not have Black problem to believing that he does *From:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Mr. Worf *Sent:* Monday, February 08, 2010 4:16 AM *To:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I think the with the writers strike happening around that time frame they decided to progress things a bit. But you are correct, they could have showed their relationship more. Maybe they were afraid of showing an interracial couple? Interracial couples, and other types of relationships are usually sexless in the magical tv world anyway. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: WARNING SPOILERS BELOW I remember two black women. Duella and the religious woman. The religious woman was killed off before anything could be done with her character. Duella’s character always bothered me. Most times, she seemed like a filler character and was occasionally used to move the story along for other characters. Also she has what I used to call the “Claudia and Brian syndrome”. Waaay back in the day, I used to watch General Hospital and they had this Black couple that they showcased as proof of diversity. We heard about their problems and issues like other characters, but unlike other characters, we were never exposed to the gory details or their stories. They were always coming and going. Duella had a relationship with the guy that worked for the president, but we never got any info on it until they decided to kill him off. She was also used to create tension between Apollo and Starbuck, but we never got to see how she became a devoted wife to Lee. She was not even dating him. We saw them divorce and she was gone. Very little exploration of their relationship. She was supposed to be close to Adama like the Asian girl, but unlike the Asian girl, we were never able to really see how they were close. We saw her be supposedly mellow and off herself, with one wrinkled brow provided as a clue to how she was really upset. We were able
implicit prejudice in BSG RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Perhaps we just have to agree to disagree. If all the great character development for African Americans scenes were coincidentally relegated to webisodes and the only reason that a black person’s role was not developed while others were was because of the strike, I find that coincidence odd. In my view, I still see implicit prejudice. http://www.multiculturaladvantage.com/recruit/diversity/bias/Implicit-Prejudice-Unconsciously-Colors-Our-World.asp I respect your opinion, but for me these sound like weak excuses for something that even the producer is likely unaware of. By the way, I really like that actor, Rick Worthy. He was really good in a series called Eyes and Odyssey 5. I wish I could see most of his work. I’ve been a big fan of Moore since DS9, and hoped with Worthy’s part, that the patterns of his decisions with Black actors , would begin to seem more random, but in the end, after scenes were cut until he appeared little more than a bit player, that these patterns are not random. I still hope I am wrong, but nothing you have shown me proves otherwise, in fact these factoids seem to more likely support it. From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mr. Worf Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 9:21 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One thing that is overlooked with the show was the additional footage that was made for the internet. There were a lot of webisodes that included additional screen time for all of the main characters from their points of view. But brotha's character was seriously under utilized. Although it was the most important to the survival of mankind. Here is a video that has a short interview of the actor that played Simon: http://video.syfy.com/shows/battlestar/more/deleted_scenes_2/#shows/battlestar/events_specials/the_plan/its-all-about-character/v1169714 On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:21 AM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: Then perhaps it was coincidental that the difficulties they had with Black characters throughout the entire series seemed similar to what was done during the strike, I do not know, but from my view they were doing more of the same. I do not doublt what you said occurred during the strike, but I do think if you have a problem with your writing thoughout a series, you are not going to be inclined to pull it together during a strike. By the way, I do not think they discriminated against people of color, just Blacks. Indians, Asians, and Latinos, seem to get better treatment From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mr. Worf Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 7:11 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? The storylines were shot before they got to that point in time is what I'm getting at. Very little anywhere in Hollywood was shot during the strike. It could have more to do with the casting director and not the actual directors or writers. This is an issue that has come up before and has not been addressed properly yet in Hollywood. When parts are written they automatically suggest a particular race and look for a part. Other smaller parts the outlines may not be as well defined. It is during this process where the problems occur that discriminate against people of color. When they think of a lead role, they will often try to find whomever is in the writer's head at the time. Cattle calls usually end up with a profile like looking for Male 25-35, athletic, martial arts skills 6' - 6.6' blond hair. That right there has eliminated most of the actors. I wonder what would happen if a black male showed up with dyed blond hair? On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:00 AM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: During the writers’ strike, they had no difficulty developing other storylines and romances of people who were not Black, and they had no trouble showing Tory in a relationship or the character on Caprica in a relationship, so I’m now inclined after years of thinking this guy did not have Black problem to believing that he does From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mr. Worf Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 4:16 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I think the with the writers strike happening around that time frame they decided to progress things a bit. But you are correct, they could have showed their relationship more. Maybe they were afraid of showing an interracial couple? Interracial couples, and other types of relationships are usually sexless in the magical tv world anyway. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 11:25 PM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: WARNING SPOILERS BELOW
Re: implicit prejudice in BSG RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Without talking to them directly or someone asking them point blank we will never really know for sure. Its all intellectual conjecture at this point. I wasn't trying to prove that the producers and directors were fair. Just playing devil's advocate offering some possible alternatives. Considering the fact that there are no shows with a black male or female lead in scifi or drama on tv right now makes this seem a bit moot. Implicit prejudice sounds a little more politically correct than straight up prejudice doesn't it? On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: Perhaps we just have to agree to disagree. If all the great character development for African Americans scenes were coincidentally relegated to webisodes and the only reason that a black person’s role was not developed while others were was because of the strike, I find that coincidence odd. In my view, I still see implicit prejudice. http://www.multiculturaladvantage.com/recruit/diversity/bias/Implicit-Prejudice-Unconsciously-Colors-Our-World.asp I respect your opinion, but for me these sound like weak excuses for something that even the producer is likely unaware of. By the way, I really like that actor, Rick Worthy. He was really good in a series called Eyes and Odyssey 5. I wish I could see most of his work. I’ve been a big fan of Moore since DS9, and hoped with Worthy’s part, that the patterns of his decisions with Black actors , would begin to seem more random, but in the end, after scenes were cut until he appeared little more than a bit player, that these patterns are not random. I still hope I am wrong, but nothing you have shown me proves otherwise, in fact these factoids seem to more likely support it. *From:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Mr. Worf *Sent:* Monday, February 08, 2010 9:21 AM *To:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One thing that is overlooked with the show was the additional footage that was made for the internet. There were a lot of webisodes that included additional screen time for all of the main characters from their points of view. But brotha's character was seriously under utilized. Although it was the most important to the survival of mankind. Here is a video that has a short interview of the actor that played Simon: http://video.syfy.com/shows/battlestar/more/deleted_scenes_2/#shows/battlestar/events_specials/the_plan/its-all-about-character/v1169714 On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:21 AM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: Then perhaps it was coincidental that the difficulties they had with Black characters throughout the entire series seemed similar to what was done during the strike, I do not know, but from my view they were doing more of the same. I do not doublt what you said occurred during the strike, but I do think if you have a problem with your writing thoughout a series, you are not going to be inclined to pull it together during a strike. By the way, I do not think they discriminated against people of color, just Blacks. Indians, Asians, and Latinos, seem to get better treatment *From:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Mr. Worf *Sent:* Monday, February 08, 2010 7:11 AM *To:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? The storylines were shot before they got to that point in time is what I'm getting at. Very little anywhere in Hollywood was shot during the strike. It could have more to do with the casting director and not the actual directors or writers. This is an issue that has come up before and has not been addressed properly yet in Hollywood. When parts are written they automatically suggest a particular race and look for a part. Other smaller parts the outlines may not be as well defined. It is during this process where the problems occur that discriminate against people of color. When they think of a lead role, they will often try to find whomever is in the writer's head at the time. Cattle calls usually end up with a profile like looking for Male 25-35, athletic, martial arts skills 6' - 6.6' blond hair. That right there has eliminated most of the actors. I wonder what would happen if a black male showed up with dyed blond hair? On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:00 AM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: During the writers’ strike, they had no difficulty developing other storylines and romances of people who were not Black, and they had no trouble showing Tory in a relationship or the character on Caprica in a relationship, so I’m now inclined after years of thinking this guy did not have Black problem to believing that he does *From:* scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino
RE: implicit prejudice in BSG RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I guess we just disagree on both whether Moore is prejudice against Black and the definition of implicit prejudice. I believe Moore is prejudice against Blacks. You are actually the first black man I have ever met who has come to Moore’s defense. This was not about Black leads. Perhaps we were in two different conversations. Disagreement is fine From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mr. Worf Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 10:58 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: implicit prejudice in BSG RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? Without talking to them directly or someone asking them point blank we will never really know for sure. Its all intellectual conjecture at this point. I wasn't trying to prove that the producers and directors were fair. Just playing devil's advocate offering some possible alternatives. Considering the fact that there are no shows with a black male or female lead in scifi or drama on tv right now makes this seem a bit moot. Implicit prejudice sounds a little more politically correct than straight up prejudice doesn't it? On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: Perhaps we just have to agree to disagree. If all the great character development for African Americans scenes were coincidentally relegated to webisodes and the only reason that a black person’s role was not developed while others were was because of the strike, I find that coincidence odd. In my view, I still see implicit prejudice. http://www.multiculturaladvantage.com/recruit/diversity/bias/Implicit-Prejudice-Unconsciously-Colors-Our-World.asp I respect your opinion, but for me these sound like weak excuses for something that even the producer is likely unaware of. By the way, I really like that actor, Rick Worthy. He was really good in a series called Eyes and Odyssey 5. I wish I could see most of his work. I’ve been a big fan of Moore since DS9, and hoped with Worthy’s part, that the patterns of his decisions with Black actors , would begin to seem more random, but in the end, after scenes were cut until he appeared little more than a bit player, that these patterns are not random. I still hope I am wrong, but nothing you have shown me proves otherwise, in fact these factoids seem to more likely support it. From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mr. Worf Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 9:21 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One thing that is overlooked with the show was the additional footage that was made for the internet. There were a lot of webisodes that included additional screen time for all of the main characters from their points of view. But brotha's character was seriously under utilized. Although it was the most important to the survival of mankind. Here is a video that has a short interview of the actor that played Simon: http://video.syfy.com/shows/battlestar/more/deleted_scenes_2/#shows/battlestar/events_specials/the_plan/its-all-about-character/v1169714 On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:21 AM, Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com wrote: Then perhaps it was coincidental that the difficulties they had with Black characters throughout the entire series seemed similar to what was done during the strike, I do not know, but from my view they were doing more of the same. I do not doublt what you said occurred during the strike, but I do think if you have a problem with your writing thoughout a series, you are not going to be inclined to pull it together during a strike. By the way, I do not think they discriminated against people of color, just Blacks. Indians, Asians, and Latinos, seem to get better treatment From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mr. Worf Sent: Monday, February 08, 2010 7:11 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? The storylines were shot before they got to that point in time is what I'm getting at. Very little anywhere in Hollywood was shot during the strike. It could have more to do with the casting director and not the actual directors or writers. This is an issue that has come up before and has not been addressed properly yet in Hollywood. When parts are written they automatically suggest a particular race and look for a part. Other smaller parts the outlines may not be as well defined. It is during this process where the problems occur that discriminate against people of color. When they think of a lead role, they will often try to find whomever is in the writer's head at the time. Cattle calls usually end up with a profile like looking for Male 25-35, athletic, martial arts skills 6' - 6.6' blond hair
[scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald black men. I also note a lot of brothers functioning as scowling muscle. When Admiral Cain (michelle Forbes) came to Galactica, her high level staff was all white men. But the bodyguards? All big, very black, very bald, scowling black men. Left a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly one reason i lost some interest in the show. Did it get better? Now on Caprica I'm seeing the same thing. Sure, I see black men in the background: in the street traffic, maybe a reporter in the background shouting questions. Back again, I see no high level scientists, politicians, police, or military men who are black. The one black I can remember in anything approaching a recurring role? The big, black, bald, scowling brother who functions as the bodyguard/drive for the Greystones. What's the deal? This reminds me of the old days when we were in the background but little else. I'd ask if it's because of the shooting locale, but if they can find brothers to walk up and down the street, surely they could put some in important roles. It's cool and all they have a Latino in a role that may or may not be Latino, but my brothers are all but absent...
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.netwrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald black men. I also note a lot of brothers functioning as scowling muscle. When Admiral Cain (michelle Forbes) came to Galactica, her high level staff was all white men. But the bodyguards? All big, very black, very bald, scowling black men. Left a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly one reason i lost some interest in the show. Did it get better? Now on Caprica I'm seeing the same thing. Sure, I see black men in the background: in the street traffic, maybe a reporter in the background shouting questions. Back again, I see no high level scientists, politicians, police, or military men who are black. The one black I can remember in anything approaching a recurring role? The big, black, bald, scowling brother who functions as the bodyguard/drive for the Greystones. What's the deal? This reminds me of the old days when we were in the background but little else. I'd ask if it's because of the shooting locale, but if they can find brothers to walk up and down the street, surely they could put some in important roles. It's cool and all they have a Latino in a role that may or may not be Latino, but my brothers are all but absent... -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald black men. I also note a lot of brothers functioning as scowling muscle. When Admiral Cain (michelle Forbes) came to Galactica, her high level staff was all white men. But the bodyguards? All big, very black, very bald, scowling black men. Left a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly one reason i lost some interest in the show. Did it get better? Now on Caprica I'm seeing the same thing. Sure, I see black men in the background: in the street traffic, maybe a reporter in the background shouting questions. Back again, I see no high level scientists, politicians, police, or military men who are black. The one black I can remember in anything approaching a recurring role? The big, black, bald, scowling brother who functions as the bodyguard/drive for the Greystones. What's the deal? This reminds me of the old days when we were in the background but little else. I'd ask if it's because of the shooting locale, but if they can find brothers to walk up and down the street, surely they could put some in important roles. It's cool and all they have a Latino in a role that may or may not be Latino, but my brothers are all but absent... -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Not meaning to be harsh, guys, but like I siad when I first joined this group: If you want to see black folks in sci-fi and horror, write them! I've seen a lot of your work, guys, and from some of the intelligent threads I've been reading in the group, we have a lot of potential great storytellers...Before you ask, I have been published twice...and I suck, so you guys with the chops will make an impressive killing if you put your stuff in front of the right eyes...(Think Bill Duke!) Such music flows on the Fringe, and no one can resist singing to Scarlet From THE SIDE STREET CHRONICLES by C.W. Badie --- On Sun, 2/7/10, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: From: Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 12:01 PM Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ gmail.com To: scifino...@yahoogro ups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ comcast.net wrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald black men. I also note a lot of brothers functioning as scowling muscle. When Admiral Cain (michelle Forbes) came to Galactica, her high level staff was all white men. But the bodyguards? All big, very black, very bald, scowling black men. Left a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly one reason i lost some interest in the show. Did it get better? Now on Caprica I'm seeing the same thing. Sure, I see black men in the background: in the street traffic, maybe a reporter in the background shouting questions. Back again, I see no high level scientists, politicians, police, or military men who are black. The one black I can remember in anything approaching a recurring role? The big, black, bald, scowling brother who functions as the bodyguard/drive for the Greystones. What's the deal? This reminds me of the old days when we were in the background but little else. I'd ask if it's because of the shooting locale, but if they can find brothers to walk up and down the street, surely they could put some in important roles. It's cool and all they have a Latino in a role that may or may not be Latino, but my brothers are all but absent... -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/mahogany_ pleasures_ of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
No, you're right, it's my belief as well. I went to see Princess and the Frog yesterday. I really liked it, but was upset--as I anticipated--at a bit of cowardice on Pixar's part. To wit: not making the male romantic lead a black man (he's some odd darker-skinned color with straight hair and an ambiguous accent, but obviously not black like the princess). And, the fact that the vast bulk of the film has the two leads as animals, which is odd since I've never seen that in a Disney flick like this. Films with major animal sidekicks or stars outright? Sure, but not this. It showed that Pixar was simply nervous at making a black film, and played it safe. The only way around that is for more people of color to be in charge of film production. Still, we can't do everything, and for every movie or cartoon black people can manage to raise the funds and talent to create, there will be more works where others interpretate us, and we have to at least address that. - Original Message - From: C.W. Badie astromancer2...@yahoo.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 1:54:47 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? Not meaning to be harsh, guys, but like I siad when I first joined this group: If you want to see black folks in sci-fi and horror, write them! I've seen a lot of your work, guys, and from some of the intelligent threads I've been reading in the group, we have a lot of potential great storytellers...Before you ask, I have been published twice...and I suck, so you guys with the chops will make an impressive killing if you put your stuff in front of the right eyes...(Think Bill Duke!) Such music flows on the Fringe, and no one can resist singing to Scarlet From THE SIDE STREET CHRONICLES by C.W. Badie --- On Sun, 2/7/10, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: From: Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 12:01 PM Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ gmail.com To: scifino...@yahoogro ups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ comcast.net wrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald black men. I also note a lot of brothers functioning as scowling muscle. When Admiral Cain (michelle Forbes) came to Galactica, her high level staff was all white men. But the bodyguards? All big, very black, very bald, scowling black men. Left a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly one reason i lost some interest in the show. Did it get better? Now on Caprica I'm seeing the same thing. Sure, I see black men in the background: in the street traffic, maybe a reporter in the background shouting questions. Back again, I see no high level scientists, politicians, police, or military men who are black. The one black I can remember in anything approaching a recurring role? The big, black, bald, scowling brother who functions as the bodyguard/drive for the Greystones. What's the deal? This reminds me of the old days when we were in the background but little else. I'd ask if it's because of the shooting locale, but if they can find brothers to walk up and down the street, surely they could put some in important roles. It's cool and all they have a Latino in a role that may or may not be Latino, but my brothers are all but absent... -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
There probably should have been a major black male, but the series was obviously skewed more towards the power of women. There were several women of color in major roles. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.netwrote: Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.netwrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald black men. I also note a lot of brothers functioning as scowling muscle. When Admiral Cain (michelle Forbes) came to Galactica, her high level staff was all white men. But the bodyguards? All big, very black, very bald, scowling black men. Left a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly one reason i lost some interest in the show. Did it get better? Now on Caprica I'm seeing the same thing. Sure, I see black men in the background: in the street traffic, maybe a reporter in the background shouting questions. Back again, I see no high level scientists, politicians, police, or military men who are black. The one black I can remember in anything approaching a recurring role? The big, black, bald, scowling brother who functions as the bodyguard/drive for the Greystones. What's the deal? This reminds me of the old days when we were in the background but little else. I'd ask if it's because of the shooting locale, but if they can find brothers to walk up and down the street, surely they could put some in important roles. It's cool and all they have a Latino in a role that may or may not be Latino, but my brothers are all but absent... -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
The one was little more than an extra. Unlike every other cylon, he had no storylines devoted to his character and in at least two episodes that he appeared in, he did not even have lines From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 10:02 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald black men. I also note a lot of brothers functioning as scowling muscle. When Admiral Cain (michelle Forbes) came to Galactica, her high level staff was all white men. But the bodyguards? All big, very black, very bald, scowling black men. Left a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly one reason i lost some interest in the show. Did it get better? Now on Caprica I'm seeing the same thing. Sure, I see black men in the background: in the street traffic, maybe a reporter in the background shouting questions. Back again, I see no high level scientists, politicians, police, or military men who are black. The one black I can remember in anything approaching a recurring role? The big, black, bald, scowling brother who functions as the bodyguard/drive for the Greystones. What's the deal? This reminds me of the old days when we were in the background but little else. I'd ask if it's because of the shooting locale, but if they can find brothers to walk up and down the street, surely they could put some in important roles. It's cool and all they have a Latino in a role that may or may not be Latino, but my brothers are all but absent... -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I was on a panel at a scifi/fantasy con called Women in Science Fiction and as a panelist, this is pretty much what I concluded/begged/declared. Women and minorities both draw the short straw in scifi, and it drives me more than a bit batshit. It's also made me realize that I need to contribute more to the genre as a writer. I have seriously considered getting more writers onto this list in order to shame them into making their own writing more balanced also. I think people need to get over their fear of writing outside their experience when it comes to things such as women writing stories about gay men, Caucasians writing about Native Americans, African Americans, and any other race besides their own, et cetera. And believe me, I'm currently aiming to practice what I'm preaching. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:54 PM, C.W. Badie astromancer2...@yahoo.comwrote: Not meaning to be harsh, guys, but like I siad when I first joined this group: If you want to see black folks in sci-fi and horror, write them! I've seen a lot of your work, guys, and from some of the intelligent threads I've been reading in the group, we have a lot of potential great storytellers...Before you ask, I have been published twice...and I suck, so you guys with the chops will make an impressive killing if you put your stuff in front of the right eyes...(Think Bill Duke!) Such music flows on the Fringe, and no one can resist singing to Scarlet From THE SIDE STREET CHRONICLES by C.W. Badie --- On *Sun, 2/7/10, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net* wrote: From: Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 12:01 PM Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ gmail.com To: scifino...@yahoogro ups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ comcast.nethttp://us.mc594.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald black men. I also note a lot of brothers functioning as scowling muscle. When Admiral Cain (michelle Forbes) came to Galactica, her high level staff was all white men. But the bodyguards? All big, very black, very bald, scowling black men. Left a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly one reason i lost some interest in the show. Did it get better? Now on Caprica I'm seeing the same thing. Sure, I see black men in the background: in the street traffic, maybe a reporter in the background shouting questions. Back again, I see no high level scientists, politicians, police, or military men who are black. The one black I can remember in anything approaching a recurring role? The big, black, bald, scowling brother who functions as the bodyguard/drive for the Greystones. What's the deal? This reminds me of the old days when we were in the background but little else. I'd ask if it's because of the shooting locale, but if they can find brothers to walk up and down the street, surely they could put some in important roles. It's cool and all they have a Latino in a role that may or may not be Latino, but my brothers are all but absent... -- Celebrating 10 years
RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Adrianne, I write Afrocentric from my protagonists' standpoint, but my supporting characters are of all races, drawing from my own past. In defense of Caucasian writers, they may not be able to bridge that divide for the same reason. There simply may be no one of color in their circle for them to draw on example-wise, even in this exalted day and age. _ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/
RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I lot of writers used to be on the list way back when. Many of them do not related to TV and even film and told me they felt out of sorts. So I started a literature groups which did pretty well. When I got sick and suffered brain trauma I pretty much abandoned both the TV and film list and the literature list. This list thrived on its own. I tried to get a moderator for the other list , but he never did anything. Anyway we had one person on the list who was kind of in your face who chased a lot of people away. Then Charles Brandon Society started flourishing, so I did not see the need to compete. I am no longer active with Charles Brandon, but it seems to be a good place for writers, but not necessarily for ones that have a love of comic, TV and film From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrianne Brennan Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 5:06 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was on a panel at a scifi/fantasy con called Women in Science Fiction and as a panelist, this is pretty much what I concluded/begged/declared. Women and minorities both draw the short straw in scifi, and it drives me more than a bit batshit. It's also made me realize that I need to contribute more to the genre as a writer. I have seriously considered getting more writers onto this list in order to shame them into making their own writing more balanced also. I think people need to get over their fear of writing outside their experience when it comes to things such as women writing stories about gay men, Caucasians writing about Native Americans, African Americans, and any other race besides their own, et cetera. And believe me, I'm currently aiming to practice what I'm preaching. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:54 PM, C.W. Badie astromancer2...@yahoo.com wrote: Not meaning to be harsh, guys, but like I siad when I first joined this group: If you want to see black folks in sci-fi and horror, write them! I've seen a lot of your work, guys, and from some of the intelligent threads I've been reading in the group, we have a lot of potential great storytellers...Before you ask, I have been published twice...and I suck, so you guys with the chops will make an impressive killing if you put your stuff in front of the right eyes...(Think Bill Duke!) Such music flows on the Fringe, and no one can resist singing to Scarlet From THE SIDE STREET CHRONICLES by C.W. Badie --- On Sun, 2/7/10, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: From: Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 12:01 PM Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ gmail.com To: scifino...@yahoogro ups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ comcast.net http://us.mc594.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald black men. I also note a lot of brothers functioning as scowling muscle. When Admiral Cain (michelle Forbes) came to Galactica, her high level staff was all white men. But the bodyguards? All big, very
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I think Caucasian writers never think of people of color unless they socialize with them. How else do we end up with tv shows like Seinfeld and Friends? NYC is extremely diverse and yet you have two examples of a show where even the extras are 98% white. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Martin Baxter truthseeker...@hotmail.comwrote: Adrianne, I write Afrocentric from my protagonists' standpoint, but my supporting characters are of all races, drawing from my own past. In defense of Caucasian writers, they may not be able to bridge that divide for the same reason. There simply may be no one of color in their circle for them to draw on example-wise, even in this exalted day and age. -- Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Frankly, that both scares and appalls me. The way I see it, if I can write about men I can write about other people, too. Heck, I can write about the Victorian period. I have no experience with the Victorian period, right? Just do the appropriate research. In one of my manuscripts I have no choice but to tackle race and frankly it'll be a good thing. I also plan to add a transexual character, too. :) Why not? ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:11 PM, Martin Baxter truthseeker...@hotmail.comwrote: Adrianne, I write Afrocentric from my protagonists' standpoint, but my supporting characters are of all races, drawing from my own past. In defense of Caucasian writers, they may not be able to bridge that divide for the same reason. There simply may be no one of color in their circle for them to draw on example-wise, even in this exalted day and age. -- Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Actually I'd chalk it up to fear. Fear of doing something un-PC/racist/inaccurate in the process and get slammed for it. And it's really a shame. Unfortunately race is such a loaded issue people would rather avoid it than tackle it head on. As far as what I'm working on at present, here's a good example: I have a main char who is a vampire in NOLA. I have long considered the idea that she is of a mixed racial background and maybe even at one point hid that fact on purpose. It'd be a very interesting plot to tackle and would make her background that much more interesting. What I first have to do is research NOLA in the very early 20th century (which is when she would've been around) and get a better sense of how a woman of her background would've fared before and after being Turned in that time period--and take it from there. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com wrote: I think Caucasian writers never think of people of color unless they socialize with them. How else do we end up with tv shows like Seinfeld and Friends? NYC is extremely diverse and yet you have two examples of a show where even the extras are 98% white. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Martin Baxter truthseeker...@hotmail.comwrote: Adrianne, I write Afrocentric from my protagonists' standpoint, but my supporting characters are of all races, drawing from my own past. In defense of Caucasian writers, they may not be able to bridge that divide for the same reason. There simply may be no one of color in their circle for them to draw on example-wise, even in this exalted day and age. -- Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I think that its not that they are afraid of getting heat from doing something wrong but it just never dawn on them to write anything other than what they already know. Basically, a white male writes about white males, a white woman writes about white women. There are exceptions (Tarantino, Law and Order) and variations (My big fat greek wedding for example.) but for the most part they are mirroring. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Adrianne Brennan adrianne.bren...@gmail.com wrote: Actually I'd chalk it up to fear. Fear of doing something un-PC/racist/inaccurate in the process and get slammed for it. And it's really a shame. Unfortunately race is such a loaded issue people would rather avoid it than tackle it head on. As far as what I'm working on at present, here's a good example: I have a main char who is a vampire in NOLA. I have long considered the idea that she is of a mixed racial background and maybe even at one point hid that fact on purpose. It'd be a very interesting plot to tackle and would make her background that much more interesting. What I first have to do is research NOLA in the very early 20th century (which is when she would've been around) and get a better sense of how a woman of her background would've fared before and after being Turned in that time period--and take it from there. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com wrote: I think Caucasian writers never think of people of color unless they socialize with them. How else do we end up with tv shows like Seinfeld and Friends? NYC is extremely diverse and yet you have two examples of a show where even the extras are 98% white. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Martin Baxter truthseeker...@hotmail.com wrote: Adrianne, I write Afrocentric from my protagonists' standpoint, but my supporting characters are of all races, drawing from my own past. In defense of Caucasian writers, they may not be able to bridge that divide for the same reason. There simply may be no one of color in their circle for them to draw on example-wise, even in this exalted day and age. -- Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Maybe the NAACP needs to step in and I'm not being a smart-a** either. BTW when will BET release the Black Panther cartoon? From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sun, February 7, 2010 8:50:33 PM Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I think that its not that they are afraid of getting heat from doing something wrong but it just never dawn on them to write anything other than what they already know. Basically, a white male writes about white males, a white woman writes about white women. There are exceptions (Tarantino, Law and Order) and variations (My big fat greek wedding for example.) but for the most part they are mirroring. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Adrianne Brennan adrianne.brennan@ gmail.com wrote: Actually I'd chalk it up to fear. Fear of doing something un-PC/racist/ inaccurate in the process and get slammed for it. And it's really a shame. Unfortunately race is such a loaded issue people would rather avoid it than tackle it head on. As far as what I'm working on at present, here's a good example: I have a main char who is a vampire in NOLA. I have long considered the idea that she is of a mixed racial background and maybe even at one point hid that fact on purpose. It'd be a very interesting plot to tackle and would make her background that much more interesting. What I first have to do is research NOLA in the very early 20th century (which is when she would've been around) and get a better sense of how a woman of her background would've fared before and after being Turned in that time period--and take it from there. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ gmail.com wrote: I think Caucasian writers never think of people of color unless they socialize with them. How else do we end up with tv shows like Seinfeld and Friends? NYC is extremely diverse and yet you have two examples of a show where even the extras are 98% white. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Martin Baxter truthseeker013@ hotmail.com wrote: Adrianne, I write Afrocentric from my protagonists' standpoint, but my supporting characters are of all races, drawing from my own past. In defense of Caucasian writers, they may not be able to bridge that divide for the same reason. There simply may be no one of color in their circle for them to draw on example-wise, even in this exalted day and age. Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now. -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/mahogany_ pleasures_ of_darkness/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/mahogany_ pleasures_ of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I think I'm slightly braver than most writers, and certainly seeking to broaden my palette. I actually do write about men and those all over the GLBT spectrum. I just take it from the standpoint that they're people like any other person and don't write about stereotypes. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com wrote: I think that its not that they are afraid of getting heat from doing something wrong but it just never dawn on them to write anything other than what they already know. Basically, a white male writes about white males, a white woman writes about white women. There are exceptions (Tarantino, Law and Order) and variations (My big fat greek wedding for example.) but for the most part they are mirroring. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Adrianne Brennan adrianne.bren...@gmail.com wrote: Actually I'd chalk it up to fear. Fear of doing something un-PC/racist/inaccurate in the process and get slammed for it. And it's really a shame. Unfortunately race is such a loaded issue people would rather avoid it than tackle it head on. As far as what I'm working on at present, here's a good example: I have a main char who is a vampire in NOLA. I have long considered the idea that she is of a mixed racial background and maybe even at one point hid that fact on purpose. It'd be a very interesting plot to tackle and would make her background that much more interesting. What I first have to do is research NOLA in the very early 20th century (which is when she would've been around) and get a better sense of how a woman of her background would've fared before and after being Turned in that time period--and take it from there. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com wrote: I think Caucasian writers never think of people of color unless they socialize with them. How else do we end up with tv shows like Seinfeld and Friends? NYC is extremely diverse and yet you have two examples of a show where even the extras are 98% white. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Martin Baxter truthseeker...@hotmail.com wrote: Adrianne, I write Afrocentric from my protagonists' standpoint, but my supporting characters are of all races, drawing from my own past. In defense of Caucasian writers, they may not be able to bridge that divide for the same reason. There simply may be no one of color in their circle for them to draw on example-wise, even in this exalted day and age. -- Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Yeah, I hear you, but I'm focused on brothers today. Besides, with no black *men* around, who do the Sisters hook up with? - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 4:46:05 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? There probably should have been a major black male, but the series was obviously skewed more towards the power of women. There were several women of color in major roles. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 10:01 AM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald black men. I also note a lot of brothers functioning as scowling muscle. When Admiral Cain (michelle Forbes) came to Galactica, her high level staff was all white men. But the bodyguards? All big, very black, very bald, scowling black men. Left a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly one reason i lost some interest in the show. Did it get better? Now on Caprica I'm seeing the same thing. Sure, I see black men in the background: in the street traffic, maybe a reporter in the background shouting questions. Back again, I see no high level scientists, politicians, police, or military men who are black. The one black I can remember in anything approaching a recurring role? The big, black, bald, scowling brother who functions as the bodyguard/drive for the Greystones. What's the deal? This reminds me of the old days when we were in the background but little else. I'd ask if it's because of the shooting locale, but if they can find brothers to walk up and down the street, surely they could put some in important roles. It's cool and all they have a Latino in a role that may or may not be Latino, but my brothers are all but absent... -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
that's what I thought. It really, really bothered me on the prison ship, where the place was lousy with big, bald, black men. And then, Admiral Cain's guards all being black and scowling--made me quite angry. On Caprica, Greystone told his black bodyguard/driver to go get the car when his wife started nutting up at the memorial service. I thought Great, first black man on Caprica I've seen not in the background, and he's the damn chaffeur! - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:34:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? The one was little more than an extra. Unlike every other cylon, he had no storylines devoted to his character and in at least two episodes that he appeared in, he did not even have lines From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 10:02 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald black men. I also note a lot of brothers functioning as scowling muscle. When Admiral Cain (michelle Forbes) came to Galactica, her high level staff was all white men. But the bodyguards? All big, very black, very bald, scowling black men. Left a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly one reason i lost some interest in the show. Did it get better? Now on Caprica I'm seeing the same thing. Sure, I see black men in the background: in the street traffic, maybe a reporter in the background shouting questions. Back again, I see no high level scientists, politicians, police, or military men who are black. The one black I can remember in anything approaching a recurring role? The big, black, bald, scowling brother who functions as the bodyguard/drive for the Greystones. What's the deal? This reminds me of the old days when we were in the background but little else. I'd ask if it's because of the shooting locale, but if they can find brothers to walk up and down the street, surely they could put some in important roles. It's cool and all they have a Latino in a role that may or may not be Latino, but my brothers are all but absent... -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I know Moore set trends with Sisco on DS9 with regards to Blacks men having power on TV, but I’ve begun to think that was a fluke resulting from him inheriting Sisco.I think he has some issues with us, but believes himself to be enlightened in this regard. The only evidence to the contrary other then Sisco, which I admit is substantial, is the Joe Morton episode of BSG From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:17 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? that's what I thought. It really, really bothered me on the prison ship, where the place was lousy with big, bald, black men. And then, Admiral Cain's guards all being black and scowling--made me quite angry. On Caprica, Greystone told his black bodyguard/driver to go get the car when his wife started nutting up at the memorial service. I thought Great, first black man on Caprica I've seen not in the background, and he's the damn chaffeur! - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:34:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? The one was little more than an extra. Unlike every other cylon, he had no storylines devoted to his character and in at least two episodes that he appeared in, he did not even have lines From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 10:02 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald black men. I also note a lot of brothers functioning as scowling muscle. When Admiral Cain (michelle Forbes) came to Galactica, her high level staff was all white men. But the bodyguards? All big, very black, very bald, scowling black men. Left a bad taste in my mouth, and frankly one reason i lost some interest in the show. Did it get better? Now on Caprica I'm seeing the same thing. Sure, I see black men in the background: in the street traffic, maybe a reporter in the background shouting questions. Back again, I see no high level scientists, politicians, police, or military men who are black. The one black I can remember in anything approaching a recurring role? The big, black, bald, scowling brother who functions as the bodyguard/drive for the Greystones. What's the deal? This reminds me of the old days when we were in the background but little else. I'd ask if it's because of the shooting locale, but if they can find brothers to walk up and down the street, surely they could put some in important roles. It's cool and all they have a Latino in a role that may or may not be Latino, but my brothers are all but absent... -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I agree with you and Astro. I'm a big believer in the concept of FUBU--For Us By Us. I think no one can tell the stories of women, blacks, Asians, etc., better than those of us in those groups. So in that way, Astro is right: we need to write, produce, finance, and control more of our own stuff. But by the same token, we also live in a world where others were always be telling our stories, corroborating on telling our stories, or backing us in telling our stories. In a country where men still run most things, a woman can't easily expect to produce novels or movies without having to work with men in meaningful ways. In a country where whites are the majority, a black person can't easily get to certain levels of success without working with those whites at least sometimes. And that is where I think we have to challenge and educate people not like us to understand us, and to better represent us in various forms of media. I have spent years talking to my wife about a host of things, since, as a black woman, she has faced challenges and struggles I've never faced, despite my being black exposing me to some shared prejudices with her. Similarly, I think we have to challenge the people who make stuff like BSG, The Princess and the Frog, Hitch, etc., to listen to and understand our points of view better. The world of scifi/fantasy can often be a very white, male, conservative one. Are panels like the one you sat on common? Is there anything approaching a system in the industry for scifi or fantasy where people actually seek out a way to exchange ideas and viewpoints in a manner similar to what our panel was doing? - Original Message - From: Adrianne Brennan adrianne.bren...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 8:06:29 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was on a panel at a scifi/fantasy con called Women in Science Fiction and as a panelist, this is pretty much what I concluded/begged/declared. Women and minorities both draw the short straw in scifi, and it drives me more than a bit batshit. It's also made me realize that I need to contribute more to the genre as a writer. I have seriously considered getting more writers onto this list in order to shame them into making their own writing more balanced also. I think people need to get over their fear of writing outside their experience when it comes to things such as women writing stories about gay men, Caucasians writing about Native Americans, African Americans, and any other race besides their own, et cetera. And believe me, I'm currently aiming to practice what I'm preaching. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:54 PM, C.W. Badie astromancer2...@yahoo.com wrote: Not meaning to be harsh, guys, but like I siad when I first joined this group: If you want to see black folks in sci-fi and horror, write them! I've seen a lot of your work, guys, and from some of the intelligent threads I've been reading in the group, we have a lot of potential great storytellers...Before you ask, I have been published twice...and I suck, so you guys with the chops will make an impressive killing if you put your stuff in front of the right eyes...(Think Bill Duke!) Such music flows on the Fringe, and no one can resist singing to Scarlet From THE SIDE STREET CHRONICLES by C.W. Badie --- On Sun, 2/7/10, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: From: Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 12:01 PM Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ gmail.com To: scifino...@yahoogro ups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ comcast.net wrote: Something odd strikes me
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Maybe we need to start adding some more lit discussions here? If nothing else, some of us who write can start talking more, even if it's offline... - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 8:15:05 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I lot of writers used to be on the list way back when. Many of them do not related to TV and even film and told me they felt out of sorts. So I started a literature groups which did pretty well. When I got sick and suffered brain trauma I pretty much abandoned both the TV and film list and the literature list. This list thrived on its own. I tried to get a moderator for the other list , but he never did anything. Anyway we had one person on the list who was kind of in your face who chased a lot of people away. Then Charles Brandon Society started flourishing, so I did not see the need to compete. I am no longer active with Charles Brandon, but it seems to be a good place for writers, but not necessarily for ones that have a love of comic, TV and film From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrianne Brennan Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 5:06 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was on a panel at a scifi/fantasy con called Women in Science Fiction and as a panelist, this is pretty much what I concluded/begged/declared. Women and minorities both draw the short straw in scifi, and it drives me more than a bit batshit. It's also made me realize that I need to contribute more to the genre as a writer. I have seriously considered getting more writers onto this list in order to shame them into making their own writing more balanced also. I think people need to get over their fear of writing outside their experience when it comes to things such as women writing stories about gay men, Caucasians writing about Native Americans, African Americans, and any other race besides their own, et cetera. And believe me, I'm currently aiming to practice what I'm preaching. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:54 PM, C.W. Badie astromancer2...@yahoo.com wrote: Not meaning to be harsh, guys, but like I siad when I first joined this group: If you want to see black folks in sci-fi and horror, write them! I've seen a lot of your work, guys, and from some of the intelligent threads I've been reading in the group, we have a lot of potential great storytellers...Before you ask, I have been published twice...and I suck, so you guys with the chops will make an impressive killing if you put your stuff in front of the right eyes...(Think Bill Duke!) Such music flows on the Fringe, and no one can resist singing to Scarlet From THE SIDE STREET CHRONICLES by C.W. Badie --- On Sun, 2/7/10, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: From: Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 12:01 PM Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf HelloMahogany@ gmail.com To: scifino...@yahoogro ups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson KeithBJohnson@ comcast.net wrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
A lot of this is *having* to leave your comfort zone. There's a saying in Hollywood, Women and girls will see movies with men and boys, but men and boys won't see movies with women and girls. I have always expanded that to include the H'Wood sentiment, People of color will see films with white leads, but whites won't see films with black leads. At least, that's why H'Wood brands movies with two main black leads black films, and fears their success with white and European audiences. Whites have been able for centuries to live and work in a world where they haven't had to deal with people of color in meaningful ways. They gave us Captain Kirk and Superman and Batman and white Presidents, and we accepted it because we felt we had no choice until we gained more political, financial, and social power. Similarly, women have had much of their lives and representations dictated to them by men who've controlled their fates. White men haven't really had to deal with not being in charge of everything. I think a lot of this Tea Party crap is frankly a bunch of disgruntled people in the majority who hate a world where people of color, non-Christians, gays, etc., are demanding more of a voice. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 8:50:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I think that its not that they are afraid of getting heat from doing something wrong but it just never dawn on them to write anything other than what they already know. Basically, a white male writes about white males, a white woman writes about white women. There are exceptions (Tarantino, Law and Order) and variations (My big fat greek wedding for example.) but for the most part they are mirroring. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Adrianne Brennan adrianne.bren...@gmail.com wrote: Actually I'd chalk it up to fear. Fear of doing something un-PC/racist/inaccurate in the process and get slammed for it. And it's really a shame. Unfortunately race is such a loaded issue people would rather avoid it than tackle it head on. As far as what I'm working on at present, here's a good example: I have a main char who is a vampire in NOLA. I have long considered the idea that she is of a mixed racial background and maybe even at one point hid that fact on purpose. It'd be a very interesting plot to tackle and would make her background that much more interesting. What I first have to do is research NOLA in the very early 20th century (which is when she would've been around) and get a better sense of how a woman of her background would've fared before and after being Turned in that time period--and take it from there. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com wrote: I think Caucasian writers never think of people of color unless they socialize with them. How else do we end up with tv shows like Seinfeld and Friends? NYC is extremely diverse and yet you have two examples of a show where even the extras are 98% white. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Martin Baxter truthseeker...@hotmail.com wrote: Adrianne, I write Afrocentric from my protagonists' standpoint, but my supporting characters are of all races, drawing from my own past. In defense of Caucasian writers, they may not be able to bridge that divide for the same reason. There simply may be no one of color in their circle for them to draw on example-wise, even in this exalted day and age. Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now. -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/ -- Celebrating 10 years of bringing diversity to perversity! Mahogany at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mahogany_pleasures_of_darkness/
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
That's cool to hear. I think a lot of people are so entrenched in comfort zones of how the world is, they have trouble accepting change. Some see it as a threat, when the real threat to them is simply the *idea* of change, not any horrible results from that change. A couple of years ago, I had a discussion with a very conservative white dude at my old job. Discussion ranged all over the map: illegal immigration, gay rights, Obama, the Iraq invasion, etc. It was one of those rare times when I cut lose with my true feelings around someone like that at work. The thing was, I was raised as, and remain, a Christian, with Christian views of loving others as myself, helping others, etc. . I have fairly traditional views about how to treat women, marriage, etc. I love America, etc., etc. So this dude and I should have several things in common. However, I'm a very liberal black man who tells it like it is. When I finished making statements about some of my beliefs, he got red faced and said, It's liberals like you who are trying to destroy America. How, I asked him, could my simply wanting people of color, women, gays, and foreigners to have the same advantages in life he had be destroying America? How could my wanting people to abandon non-Christian hatred of those different of them do anything but help this country? I related the conversation to a friend of mine and he said, Keith, realize, to his mind you are trying to destroy America: the safe, comfortable America he grew up in, and that terrifies him. - Original Message - From: Adrianne Brennan adrianne.bren...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 8:55:50 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I think I'm slightly braver than most writers, and certainly seeking to broaden my palette. I actually do write about men and those all over the GLBT spectrum. I just take it from the standpoint that they're people like any other person and don't write about stereotypes. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:50 PM, Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com wrote: I think that its not that they are afraid of getting heat from doing something wrong but it just never dawn on them to write anything other than what they already know. Basically, a white male writes about white males, a white woman writes about white women. There are exceptions (Tarantino, Law and Order) and variations (My big fat greek wedding for example.) but for the most part they are mirroring. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Adrianne Brennan adrianne.bren...@gmail.com wrote: Actually I'd chalk it up to fear. Fear of doing something un-PC/racist/inaccurate in the process and get slammed for it. And it's really a shame. Unfortunately race is such a loaded issue people would rather avoid it than tackle it head on. As far as what I'm working on at present, here's a good example: I have a main char who is a vampire in NOLA. I have long considered the idea that she is of a mixed racial background and maybe even at one point hid that fact on purpose. It'd be a very interesting plot to tackle and would make her background that much more interesting. What I first have to do is research NOLA in the very early 20th century (which is when she would've been around) and get a better sense of how a woman of her background would've fared before and after being Turned in that time period--and take it from there. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 8:15 PM, Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com wrote: I think Caucasian writers never think of people of color unless they socialize with them. How else do we end up with tv shows like Seinfeld and Friends? NYC is extremely diverse and yet you have two examples of a show where even the extras are 98% white. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:11 PM, Martin Baxter truthseeker...@hotmail.com wrote: Adrianne, I write Afrocentric from my protagonists' standpoint, but my supporting characters are of all races, drawing from my own past. In defense of Caucasian writers, they may not be able to bridge that divide for the same reason. There simply may be no one of color
RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
We used to have lit discussions, It was about ½ lit, maybe a little less, but if you do not watch TV or go to the movies much, so much on a subject that you cannot relate to might be alienating, even if there is content that speaks to you. This is the feedback that I got when people unsubscribed. So, I set up the literature group, and for about five years that did the trick. The feedback was great. We had few unsubscribes and the list got pretty big. Then I got sick, and stopped moderating and a few people went nuts. At the same time, the Carl Brandon group came into being and a lot of people who got sick of being attacked went there. I went there too as I started to get better. I do not seek to compete, so I even refer people to it. That being said I think it would be good for us to start discussing literature again. While I do not have the heart to delete the other group, the other group is essentially dead. From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 10:38 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? Maybe we need to start adding some more lit discussions here? If nothing else, some of us who write can start talking more, even if it's offline... - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 8:15:05 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I lot of writers used to be on the list way back when. Many of them do not related to TV and even film and told me they felt out of sorts. So I started a literature groups which did pretty well. When I got sick and suffered brain trauma I pretty much abandoned both the TV and film list and the literature list. This list thrived on its own. I tried to get a moderator for the other list , but he never did anything. Anyway we had one person on the list who was kind of in your face who chased a lot of people away. Then Charles Brandon Society started flourishing, so I did not see the need to compete. I am no longer active with Charles Brandon, but it seems to be a good place for writers, but not necessarily for ones that have a love of comic, TV and film From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrianne Brennan Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 5:06 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was on a panel at a scifi/fantasy con called Women in Science Fiction and as a panelist, this is pretty much what I concluded/begged/declared. Women and minorities both draw the short straw in scifi, and it drives me more than a bit batshit. It's also made me realize that I need to contribute more to the genre as a writer. I have seriously considered getting more writers onto this list in order to shame them into making their own writing more balanced also. I think people need to get over their fear of writing outside their experience when it comes to things such as women writing stories about gay men, Caucasians writing about Native Americans, African Americans, and any other race besides their own, et cetera. And believe me, I'm currently aiming to practice what I'm preaching. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:54 PM, C.W. Badie astromancer2...@yahoo.com wrote: Not meaning to be harsh, guys, but like I siad when I first joined this group: If you want to see black folks in sci-fi and horror, write them! I've seen a lot of your work, guys, and from some of the intelligent threads I've been reading in the group, we have a lot of potential great storytellers...Before you ask, I have been published twice...and I suck, so you guys with the chops will make an impressive killing if you put your stuff in front of the right eyes...(Think Bill Duke!) Such music flows on the Fringe, and no one can resist singing to Scarlet From THE SIDE STREET CHRONICLES by C.W. Badie --- On Sun, 2/7/10, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: From: Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, February 7, 2010, 12:01 PM Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I was thinking the same thing a bit ago, Tracey, while making myself a milk shake (hey, it's my alcohol! Sugar free, of course!) I kept wondering how BSG/Caprica can be so devoid of important black men when Moore and crew crafted such a strong one in Sisko. I too wondered, did he simply inherit Sisko and worked with the character to make him good? As such, he could be an example of that most problematic of people: someone who doesn't see color (or thinks he doesn't), and who doesn't like to make what he thinks are some kind of quota/affirmative action based decisions. And thus, being what they think is colorblind, they continue to populate their worlds with people who look like them, and never realize how others are being overlooked. How do you think he's done with black women on BSG/Caprica? I can only recall the black religious leader who guided the President in BSG for a while (died in a bobby trap?), and the sister who worked in CNC on Galactica. She was okay, but I was miffed with her rather slight character, and of course, not brothers for her to date, even though they were always lurking in the background. BSG/Caprica has put Latinoes and Asians in prominent roles--perhaps, are blacks just being left out 'cause there's only so much room at that table, and the seats have been taken? - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 11:58:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I know Moore set trends with Sisco on DS9 with regards to Blacks men having power on TV, but I’ve begun to think that was a fluke resulting from him inheriting Sisco. I think he has some issues with us, but believes himself to be enlightened in this regard. The only evidence to the contrary other then Sisco, which I admit is substantial, is the Joe Morton episode of BSG From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:17 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? that's what I thought. It really, really bothered me on the prison ship, where the place was lousy with big, bald, black men. And then, Admiral Cain's guards all being black and scowling--made me quite angry. On Caprica, Greystone told his black bodyguard/driver to go get the car when his wife started nutting up at the memorial service. I thought Great, first black man on Caprica I've seen not in the background, and he's the damn chaffeur! - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:34:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? The one was little more than an extra. Unlike every other cylon, he had no storylines devoted to his character and in at least two episodes that he appeared in, he did not even have lines From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 10:02 AM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? Ah, but that's my point: none of them had pivotal roles or were memorable. You had to refresh my memory that one of the 12 was black, and I do remember that one that escaped too. But again, no black men have had major roles in either series. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:29:50 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? One of the 12 was black. He was an important character in the first 2 seasons, and the Plan. There was also a minor character that had been captured and escaped, but that didn't go anywhere. There were also several that were pilots on the transports. Also there were a couple on the other battlestar. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:53 AM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: Something odd strikes me about the BSG/Caprica worlds: no black men in significant positions. I missed the last couple years of BSG, but I remember noting the curious lack of black men in anything but background roles. I think there was one reporter on that ship were political events were held, but he wasn't even the main reporter. I see them in the background on the ship, but no high level officers, now that Boomer and Tigh from the original series were replaced by an Asian lady and a white man, respectively. Hell: I don't even remember any of the fighter pilots being black. Where I *did* see black man on BSG? On the ep dealing with the prison ship, the place was lousy with black men: big, black, bald
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Who or what is Carl Brandon? Good point: Lit is tricky. We probably range all over the map. for example, i read scifi and fantasy, but vampire/werewolf stuff isn't a fav of mine, yet a lot of people here love it. Recent lists of books being read by Martin and B. Smith were all but Greek to me: not a single one is on my radar. I'm still rocking the latest books from Raymond Feist (Riftwar books), Terry Brooks (Shannara, Knight of the Word), Donaldson (Thomas Covenant), and George RR Martin (Song of Ice and Fire). I wonder, if everyone listed the top ten, or most recent ten, scifi/fantasy books they've read, would we have several that can be discussed? - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 8, 2010 1:58:39 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? We used to have lit discussions, It was about ½ lit, maybe a little less, but if you do not watch TV or go to the movies much, so much on a subject that you cannot relate to might be alienating, even if there is content that speaks to you. This is the feedback that I got when people unsubscribed. So, I set up the literature group, and for about five years that did the trick. The feedback was great. We had few unsubscribes and the list got pretty big. Then I got sick, and stopped moderating and a few people went nuts. At the same time, the Carl Brandon group came into being and a lot of people who got sick of being attacked went there. I went there too as I started to get better. I do not seek to compete, so I even refer people to it. That being said I think it would be good for us to start discussing literature again. While I do not have the heart to delete the other group, the other group is essentially dead. From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 10:38 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? Maybe we need to start adding some more lit discussions here? If nothing else, some of us who write can start talking more, even if it's offline... - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 8:15:05 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I lot of writers used to be on the list way back when. Many of them do not related to TV and even film and told me they felt out of sorts. So I started a literature groups which did pretty well. When I got sick and suffered brain trauma I pretty much abandoned both the TV and film list and the literature list. This list thrived on its own. I tried to get a moderator for the other list , but he never did anything. Anyway we had one person on the list who was kind of in your face who chased a lot of people away. Then Charles Brandon Society started flourishing, so I did not see the need to compete. I am no longer active with Charles Brandon, but it seems to be a good place for writers, but not necessarily for ones that have a love of comic, TV and film From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Adrianne Brennan Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 5:06 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was on a panel at a scifi/fantasy con called Women in Science Fiction and as a panelist, this is pretty much what I concluded/begged/declared. Women and minorities both draw the short straw in scifi, and it drives me more than a bit batshit. It's also made me realize that I need to contribute more to the genre as a writer. I have seriously considered getting more writers onto this list in order to shame them into making their own writing more balanced also. I think people need to get over their fear of writing outside their experience when it comes to things such as women writing stories about gay men, Caucasians writing about Native Americans, African Americans, and any other race besides their own, et cetera. And believe me, I'm currently aiming to practice what I'm preaching. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 1:54 PM, C.W. Badie astromancer2...@yahoo.com wrote: Not meaning to be harsh, guys, but like I siad when I first joined this group: If you want to see black folks in sci-fi and horror, write them
RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
WARNING SPOILERS BELOW I remember two black women. Duella and the religious woman. The religious woman was killed off before anything could be done with her character. Duella’s character always bothered me. Most times, she seemed like a filler character and was occasionally used to move the story along for other characters. Also she has what I used to call the “Claudia and Brian syndrome”. Waaay back in the day, I used to watch General Hospital and they had this Black couple that they showcased as proof of diversity. We heard about their problems and issues like other characters, but unlike other characters, we were never exposed to the gory details or their stories. They were always coming and going. Duella had a relationship with the guy that worked for the president, but we never got any info on it until they decided to kill him off. She was also used to create tension between Apollo and Starbuck, but we never got to see how she became a devoted wife to Lee. She was not even dating him. We saw them divorce and she was gone. Very little exploration of their relationship. She was supposed to be close to Adama like the Asian girl, but unlike the Asian girl, we were never able to really see how they were close. We saw her be supposedly mellow and off herself, with one wrinkled brow provided as a clue to how she was really upset. We were able it be exposed to the nuances of the characters of other people of color on the show. Tori, the guy who lost his leg, but not Duella. The only time I saw otherwise was when they were doing an episode on planet-based bias, ironically. But in my view, it was done to help Bruce Davidson storyline. The man does not have a problem with people of color in general, but he does with Blacks, in my view. From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:07 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was thinking the same thing a bit ago, Tracey, while making myself a milk shake (hey, it's my alcohol! Sugar free, of course!) I kept wondering how BSG/Caprica can be so devoid of important black men when Moore and crew crafted such a strong one in Sisko. I too wondered, did he simply inherit Sisko and worked with the character to make him good? As such, he could be an example of that most problematic of people: someone who doesn't see color (or thinks he doesn't), and who doesn't like to make what he thinks are some kind of quota/affirmative action based decisions. And thus, being what they think is colorblind, they continue to populate their worlds with people who look like them, and never realize how others are being overlooked. How do you think he's done with black women on BSG/Caprica? I can only recall the black religious leader who guided the President in BSG for a while (died in a bobby trap?), and the sister who worked in CNC on Galactica. She was okay, but I was miffed with her rather slight character, and of course, not brothers for her to date, even though they were always lurking in the background. BSG/Caprica has put Latinoes and Asians in prominent roles--perhaps, are blacks just being left out 'cause there's only so much room at that table, and the seats have been taken? - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 11:58:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I know Moore set trends with Sisco on DS9 with regards to Blacks men having power on TV, but I’ve begun to think that was a fluke resulting from him inheriting Sisco.I think he has some issues with us, but believes himself to be enlightened in this regard. The only evidence to the contrary other then Sisco, which I admit is substantial, is the Joe Morton episode of BSG From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 8:17 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? that's what I thought. It really, really bothered me on the prison ship, where the place was lousy with big, bald, black men. And then, Admiral Cain's guards all being black and scowling--made me quite angry. On Caprica, Greystone told his black bodyguard/driver to go get the car when his wife started nutting up at the memorial service. I thought Great, first black man on Caprica I've seen not in the background, and he's the damn chaffeur! - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 6:34:20 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
I agree. It makes me laugh, rage, and damn near cry to hear people and pundits like George Will claim the Tea Party represents all Americans. Amazing how they continually explain away the ever-present racist and hate-filled signs at Tea Party gatherings as small fringe members. Crazy they can say Palin represents me, when the Alaska NAACP chapter couldn't even get in to speak to her when she was governor, and she always went to small, rural, mostly white towns to find the real America. I've long wished America could abandon the confining two-party system for a more complete multi-party system, but it seems to me that most third parties that get any traction lean conservative. Not sure why. I do know that most people who loudly proclaim themselves as independent or Libertarian, seem to be rather right-leaning people who do nothing to represent my views. I once asked another member on the list, James Landrith, to explain why everyone I see or hear on TV/radio who claims to be independent is actually fairly conservative. He gave a great explanation of how that side of the group gains so much of spotlight. I need to dig that e-mail up. - Original Message - From: bruce harden bhsleepystude...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 8, 2010 2:06:05 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? just had this argument with friends about the tea p0arty movement .W hen see a midlec lass movent with folks of alll americans I..ll get behind it. And as for sarah palin none has breached the subject ofher alaskan for alskanans so white south african views. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 10:47 PM, Keith Johnson keithbjohn...@comcast.net wrote: A lot of this is *having* to leave your comfort zone. There's a saying in Hollywood, Women and girls will see movies with men and boys, but men and boys won't see movies with women and girls. I have always expanded that to include the H'Wood sentiment, People of color will see films with white leads, but whites won't see films with black leads. At least, that's why H'Wood brands movies with two main black leads black films, and fears their success with white and European audiences. Whites have been able for centuries to live and work in a world where they haven't had to deal with people of color in meaningful ways. They gave us Captain Kirk and Superman and Batman and white Presidents, and we accepted it because we felt we had no choice until we gained more political, financial, and social power. Similarly, women have had much of their lives and representations dictated to them by men who've controlled their fates. White men haven't really had to deal with not being in charge of everything. I think a lot of this Tea Party crap is frankly a bunch of disgruntled people in the majority who hate a world where people of color, non-Christians, gays, etc., are demanding more of a voice. - Original Message - From: Mr. Worf hellomahog...@gmail.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 8:50:33 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I think that its not that they are afraid of getting heat from doing something wrong but it just never dawn on them to write anything other than what they already know. Basically, a white male writes about white males, a white woman writes about white women. There are exceptions (Tarantino, Law and Order) and variations (My big fat greek wedding for example.) but for the most part they are mirroring. On Sun, Feb 7, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Adrianne Brennan adrianne.bren...@gmail.com wrote: Actually I'd chalk it up to fear. Fear of doing something un-PC/racist/inaccurate in the process and get slammed for it. And it's really a shame. Unfortunately race is such a loaded issue people would rather avoid it than tackle it head on. As far as what I'm working on at present, here's a good example: I have a main char who is a vampire in NOLA. I have long considered the idea that she is of a mixed racial background and maybe even at one point hid that fact on purpose. It'd be a very interesting plot to tackle and would make her background that much more interesting. What I first have to do is research NOLA in the very early 20th century (which is when she would've been around) and get a better sense of how a woman of her background would've fared before and after being Turned in that time period--and take it from there. ~ Where love and magic meet ~ http://www.adriannebrennan.com Experience the magic of the Dark Moon series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#darkmoon Dare to take The Oath in this erotic fantasy series: http://www.adriannebrennan.com/books.html#the_oath The future of psychic sex - Dawn of the Seraphs (m/m): http://www.adriannebrennan.com/dawnoftheseraphs.html
Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At?
Those are the two women I was referencing, thanks, I'd forgotten Duella's name. Could only remember her being called Dee. I used to listen to Moore's BSG podcast. It was really good: every week he'd replay the entire show, and comment on it. When the religious leader was killed, he actually laughed on the podcast, saying of her death, So long--we're barely knew you! (Chuckles). That bothered me, both because it was a black woman, and because I didn't see anything funny in a character who was important to the journey being bumped off. Struck me as odd... I couldn't get why so important a character was bumped off like that, in an apparently throwaway manner. As for Duella, yeah, she bothered me a lot too. She really was used to move others' stories along. Aside from my irritation at her only being put with white men--back to my question, where are the brothers?--I was irritated her character was so incomplete. I'd be interested in hearing Moore's views on the subject. Maybe he'd point to the Latino men and Asian woman and say he can't please everyone? - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, February 8, 2010 2:25:08 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? WARNING SPOILERS BELOW I remember two black women. Duella and the religious woman. The religious woman was killed off before anything could be done with her character. Duella’s character always bothered me. Most times, she seemed like a filler character and was occasionally used to move the story along for other characters. Also she has what I used to call the “Claudia and Brian syndrome”. Waaay back in the day, I used to watch General Hospital and they had this Black couple that they showcased as proof of diversity. We heard about their problems and issues like other characters, but unlike other characters, we were never exposed to the gory details or their stories. They were always coming and going. Duella had a relationship with the guy that worked for the president, but we never got any info on it until they decided to kill him off. She was also used to create tension between Apollo and Starbuck, but we never got to see how she became a devoted wife to Lee. She was not even dating him. We saw them divorce and she was gone. Very little exploration of their relationship. She was supposed to be close to Adama like the Asian girl, but unlike the Asian girl, we were never able to really see how they were close. We saw her be supposedly mellow and off herself, with one wrinkled brow provided as a clue to how she was really upset. We were able it be exposed to the nuances of the characters of other people of color on the show. Tori, the guy who lost his leg, but not Duella. The only time I saw otherwise was when they were doing an episode on planet-based bias, ironically. But in my view, it was done to help Bruce Davidson storyline. The man does not have a problem with people of color in general, but he does with Blacks, in my view. From: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scifino...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Keith Johnson Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2010 11:07 PM To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers At? I was thinking the same thing a bit ago, Tracey, while making myself a milk shake (hey, it's my alcohol! Sugar free, of course!) I kept wondering how BSG/Caprica can be so devoid of important black men when Moore and crew crafted such a strong one in Sisko. I too wondered, did he simply inherit Sisko and worked with the character to make him good? As such, he could be an example of that most problematic of people: someone who doesn't see color (or thinks he doesn't), and who doesn't like to make what he thinks are some kind of quota/affirmative action based decisions. And thus, being what they think is colorblind, they continue to populate their worlds with people who look like them, and never realize how others are being overlooked. How do you think he's done with black women on BSG/Caprica? I can only recall the black religious leader who guided the President in BSG for a while (died in a bobby trap?), and the sister who worked in CNC on Galactica. She was okay, but I was miffed with her rather slight character, and of course, not brothers for her to date, even though they were always lurking in the background. BSG/Caprica has put Latinoes and Asians in prominent roles--perhaps, are blacks just being left out 'cause there's only so much room at that table, and the seats have been taken? - Original Message - From: Tracey de Morsella tdli...@multiculturaladvantage.com To: scifinoir2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 7, 2010 11:58:54 PM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: RE: [scifinoir2] Caprica/BSG -- Where the Brothers
