Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250
Hi Ray, You make have made the same "minor mistake" that I just did. The VAX8200 is on a branch called vax820, so you need to do "git checkout vax820" (on Linux) first. Once I did that, it built just fine. Cheers Peter Allan On Sun, 7 Apr 2019 at 11:19, Matt Burke wrote: > On 07/04/2019 02:18, Ray Jewhurst wrote: > > What is the simulator called in the Makefile? I cannot seem to find > > either a vax8200 or vax820. > > > > The target is called vax820. It's defined here: > > https://github.com/9track/simh/blob/vax820/makefile#L2059 > > There is also a project file included for Visual Studio. I realise now > though that I forgot to add vax820 to the descrip.mms file for VMS. > > Matt > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250
On 07/04/2019 02:18, Ray Jewhurst wrote: > What is the simulator called in the Makefile? I cannot seem to find > either a vax8200 or vax820. > The target is called vax820. It's defined here: https://github.com/9track/simh/blob/vax820/makefile#L2059 There is also a project file included for Visual Studio. I realise now though that I forgot to add vax820 to the descrip.mms file for VMS. Matt ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250
What is the simulator called in the Makefile? I cannot seem to find either a vax8200 or vax820. On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 1:21 PM Matt Burke wrote: > Here is a new simulator for the VAX 8200/8250 systems. Most of the key > features are there including the DWBUA BI-Unibus adapter which allows > all the existing Unibus devices to be used. The console RX50 is also > implemented. > > The console processor is not simulated so it uses the same VMB trick as > the VAX-11/7xx simulators i.e. you boot directly from a device "boot > rq0" rather than "boot cpu". > > You can get the code from: > > https://github.com/9track/simh/tree/vax820 > > And Windows executable from: > > http://www.9track.net/simh/vax820 > > Please try it out and let me know how you get on. > > > Matt > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250
The 8200 (V11) doesn't have a console processor; the console is implemented in microcode (as in the F11/J11) and some macrocode (as in MicroVAX II). That's one of the reasons the V11's microstore was 15KW, plus a 1 KW patch store, and MicroVAX II's was 1.6KW, with no patch store. (The other drivers of V11 microword consumption were the string, decimal, and soft floating instructions.) V11 and MicroVAX II have essentially identical microwords, although the capabilities of the main data path differ slightly, particularly around shifting. I did not work on the V11 microcode directly. Close to release, when it was clear that the patch store would be half empty, I developed a patch to optimize CALL/RET using techniques lifted from the 8800 (Nautilus) microcode; these were also included in CVAX. I don't have a listing of the V11 microcode. /Bob On 4/6/2019 6:14 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote: Message: 2 Date: Sat, 6 Apr 2019 18:20:37 +0100 From: Matt Burke To: Simh Trailing-Edge Mailing List Subject: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Here is a new simulator for the VAX 8200/8250 systems. Most of the key features are there including the DWBUA BI-Unibus adapter which allows all the existing Unibus devices to be used. The console RX50 is also implemented. The console processor is not simulated so it uses the same VMB trick as the VAX-11/7xx simulators i.e. you boot directly from a device "boot rq0" rather than "boot cpu". You can get the code from: https://github.com/9track/simh/tree/vax820 And Windows executable from: http://www.9track.net/simh/vax820 Please try it out and let me know how you get on. Matt ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250
On 2019-04-07 01:14, Matt Burke wrote: On 06/04/2019 23:50, Timothy Stark wrote: Does simh use threads to handle MP processors? I have other SIMH versions (vaxmp and turbovax) that uses threads to take advantage of CPU cores. I looked through your 782 code and did not see any threads handle that vaxmp and turbovax uses. For the VAX 8300/8350 I just run both processors in the same thread and alternate between them on each instruction cycle. Things get a lot more complicated when threads are involved because you have to think about locking and synchronisation. The VAX-11/782 is quite different as you actually run two separate copies of the VAX-11/780 simulator and they communicate with each other using a shared memory interconnect (simulated by shared memory on the host operating system). One VAX-11/780 runs as the master and this is the one that you interact with. It has access to all the I/O devices such as disks/tapes. The other VAX-11/780 is non-interactive and can only process workloads which are handed over from the master. This is asymmetric multiprocessing. Unless you also have some synchronization mechanisms in there, this might not actually work right, but it can take time for issues to show up. Some VAX instructions can be rather complex, and are guaranteed to be atomic to memory. I believe that holds true also on the 11/782, which means that instructions like the interlocked queue instructions will not naturally be interlocked if you just have two threads with shared memory for a simulation. And so, you run the risk that if both CPUs would want to modify the same data interlocked, the simulation will actually end up corrupting memory. But this is probably a rare occurrence, so chances are that you have gotten away with it, even if you don't do proper interlocking. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250
On 06/04/2019 23:50, Timothy Stark wrote: > Does simh use threads to handle MP processors? I have other SIMH versions > (vaxmp and turbovax) that uses threads to take advantage of CPU cores. > > I looked through your 782 code and did not see any threads handle that vaxmp > and turbovax uses. > For the VAX 8300/8350 I just run both processors in the same thread and alternate between them on each instruction cycle. Things get a lot more complicated when threads are involved because you have to think about locking and synchronisation. The VAX-11/782 is quite different as you actually run two separate copies of the VAX-11/780 simulator and they communicate with each other using a shared memory interconnect (simulated by shared memory on the host operating system). One VAX-11/780 runs as the master and this is the one that you interact with. It has access to all the I/O devices such as disks/tapes. The other VAX-11/780 is non-interactive and can only process workloads which are handed over from the master. This is asymmetric multiprocessing. Matt ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250
Ok, I now got it. Yes, you are right about too much global data in SIMH that is not good design for multiprocessors. Tim -Original Message- From: Simh On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: Saturday, April 6, 2019 6:43 PM To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250 On 2019-04-06 22:28, Timothy Stark wrote: > I was surprised to see that! Very good news!! Good job! I will try that > soon. > > For 8250/8350, you need two MP processors. Does vax820 emulate two MP > processors like VAX-11/782? The 8250 multiprocessor uses VAXBI for interconnection, and it's a symmetric multiprocessor system. The VAX-11/782 was a very different beast with shared memory, and asymmetric multiprocessing. But as far as I know, simh supports neither, as it don't really manage multiple processors that easily in general. Too much global data, if I remember right. Johnny > > Tim > > -Original Message- > From: Simh On Behalf Of Matt Burke > Sent: Saturday, April 6, 2019 1:21 PM > To: Simh Trailing-Edge Mailing List > Subject: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250 > > Here is a new simulator for the VAX 8200/8250 systems. Most of the key > features are there including the DWBUA BI-Unibus adapter which allows all the > existing Unibus devices to be used. The console RX50 is also implemented. > > The console processor is not simulated so it uses the same VMB trick as the > VAX-11/7xx simulators i.e. you boot directly from a device "boot rq0" rather > than "boot cpu". > > You can get the code from: > > https://github.com/9track/simh/tree/vax820 > > And Windows executable from: > > http://www.9track.net/simh/vax820 > > Please try it out and let me know how you get on. > > > Matt > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh > > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh > -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250
Does simh use threads to handle MP processors? I have other SIMH versions (vaxmp and turbovax) that uses threads to take advantage of CPU cores. I looked through your 782 code and did not see any threads handle that vaxmp and turbovax uses. Tim -Original Message- From: Simh On Behalf Of Matt Burke Sent: Saturday, April 6, 2019 6:18 PM To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250 On 06/04/2019 21:28, Timothy Stark wrote: > I was surprised to see that! Very good news!! Good job! I will try that > soon. > > For 8250/8350, you need two MP processors. Does vax820 emulate two MP > processors like VAX-11/782? > No, but I have got another branch which does. It's a fairly nasty hack just to test the theory. Basically the two processors are run in lock-step and it saves/restores the context of each CPU between instruction cycles. There's a lot of overhead in that so the performance is quite poor once you start the secondary CPU. Bob Supnik created a simulator for the SiCortex SC1 several years ago which shows a better way to do multiple processors in lock-step but that would involve significant changes to the VAX CPU and MMU modules. Matt ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250
On 2019-04-06 22:28, Timothy Stark wrote: I was surprised to see that! Very good news!! Good job! I will try that soon. For 8250/8350, you need two MP processors. Does vax820 emulate two MP processors like VAX-11/782? The 8250 multiprocessor uses VAXBI for interconnection, and it's a symmetric multiprocessor system. The VAX-11/782 was a very different beast with shared memory, and asymmetric multiprocessing. But as far as I know, simh supports neither, as it don't really manage multiple processors that easily in general. Too much global data, if I remember right. Johnny Tim -Original Message- From: Simh On Behalf Of Matt Burke Sent: Saturday, April 6, 2019 1:21 PM To: Simh Trailing-Edge Mailing List Subject: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250 Here is a new simulator for the VAX 8200/8250 systems. Most of the key features are there including the DWBUA BI-Unibus adapter which allows all the existing Unibus devices to be used. The console RX50 is also implemented. The console processor is not simulated so it uses the same VMB trick as the VAX-11/7xx simulators i.e. you boot directly from a device "boot rq0" rather than "boot cpu". You can get the code from: https://github.com/9track/simh/tree/vax820 And Windows executable from: http://www.9track.net/simh/vax820 Please try it out and let me know how you get on. Matt ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250
On 06/04/2019 21:28, Timothy Stark wrote: > I was surprised to see that! Very good news!! Good job! I will try that > soon. > > For 8250/8350, you need two MP processors. Does vax820 emulate two MP > processors like VAX-11/782? > No, but I have got another branch which does. It's a fairly nasty hack just to test the theory. Basically the two processors are run in lock-step and it saves/restores the context of each CPU between instruction cycles. There's a lot of overhead in that so the performance is quite poor once you start the secondary CPU. Bob Supnik created a simulator for the SiCortex SC1 several years ago which shows a better way to do multiple processors in lock-step but that would involve significant changes to the VAX CPU and MMU modules. Matt ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250
I was surprised to see that! Very good news!! Good job! I will try that soon. For 8250/8350, you need two MP processors. Does vax820 emulate two MP processors like VAX-11/782? Tim -Original Message- From: Simh On Behalf Of Matt Burke Sent: Saturday, April 6, 2019 1:21 PM To: Simh Trailing-Edge Mailing List Subject: [Simh] VAX 8200/8250 Here is a new simulator for the VAX 8200/8250 systems. Most of the key features are there including the DWBUA BI-Unibus adapter which allows all the existing Unibus devices to be used. The console RX50 is also implemented. The console processor is not simulated so it uses the same VMB trick as the VAX-11/7xx simulators i.e. you boot directly from a device "boot rq0" rather than "boot cpu". You can get the code from: https://github.com/9track/simh/tree/vax820 And Windows executable from: http://www.9track.net/simh/vax820 Please try it out and let me know how you get on. Matt ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Anders generously donated this machine to me. I think it currently has three CPUs. It sounds like there are a few running 8350 machines out there. But if the simh works requires another one I could bump it up the TODO-list. /P On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 09:57:12PM +0100, Anders Magnusson wrote: > I can note here that we ran a 4-CPU 8350 (8354? :-) with Ultrix. Worked > very well! > > This was also the machine which I used when writing the NetBSD vax SMP > support. > > -- Ragge > > Den 2017-03-16 kl. 21:17, skrev Dan Gahlinger: > >the vax smp emulator seems to support that theory. > > > > > > > > > >Dan > > > > > > Original message > >From: Robert Armstrong > >Date: 2017-03-16 4:07 PM (GMT-05:00) > >To: 'Ethan Dicks' , simh@trailing-edge.com > >Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 > > > >> Ethan Dicks (ethan.di...@gmail.com) wrote: > >>I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). > > > > I have a running 8350 as well, should you need a dump of the console > >media or something. > > > > It is, I believe, the physically smallest BI bus VAX, and therefore > >interesting for those reason. It's the only such machine that I could fit > >in my garage :-) > > > > It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have and equally > >interesting for that reason too. FWIW, I've always wondered if the > >limitation to two CPUs was purely for testing and support reasons - it > >doesn't seem that there's any reason why you could not plug in three or > >even more CPU cards. > > > >Bob Armstrong > > > >___ > >Simh mailing list > >Simh@trailing-edge.com > >http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh > > > > > >___ > >Simh mailing list > >Simh@trailing-edge.com > >http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh > > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Doesn't ODS2 tool work with these? From: Simh on behalf of Bob Eager Sent: March 20, 2017 4:25 PM To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 That is correct. The 360kB drives are only 40 track. The 1.2MB drives are 80 track. On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 13:53:57 -0600 khandy21yo wrote: > I think you need 1.2M floppy drives for this. I seem to remember > THAT 360k drives don't work for reading RX50s. > > > Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A > Original message From: Paul Koning > Date: 3/20/17 6:45 AM (GMT-07:00) To: > Ethan Dicks Cc: SIMH > Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 > > > On Mar 19, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Ethan Dicks > > wrote: > > > > ... > > I have a number of ways to read RX50s, but nothing is presently set > > up and plugged in for that. I'll have to dust something off and > > get it going. > > PCs can read RX50s if you have a 5.25 inch drive. DOS, or old enough > versions of Windows that you can issue BIOS calls work. On Linux, > you can set the floppy parameters to 80 tracks, 10 sectors, single > sided, and then standard utilities like dd will work. If you have a > floppy image you may need to process the interleaving to get to an > image other file system utilities will handle. > > My FLX utility (on my Subversion server or in simhtools) can do > this. I have a newer version in Python that can be used as a > library, and includes an interleave/de-interleave tool. > >paul > > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh Simh Info Page - mailman.trailing-edge.com<http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh> mailman.trailing-edge.com This list is for user discussion of issues related to simh. To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the Simh Archives. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
That is correct. The 360kB drives are only 40 track. The 1.2MB drives are 80 track. On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 13:53:57 -0600 khandy21yo wrote: > I think you need 1.2M floppy drives for this. I seem to remember > THAT 360k drives don't work for reading RX50s. > > > Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A > Original message From: Paul Koning > Date: 3/20/17 6:45 AM (GMT-07:00) To: > Ethan Dicks Cc: SIMH > Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 > > > On Mar 19, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Ethan Dicks > > wrote: > > > > ... > > I have a number of ways to read RX50s, but nothing is presently set > > up and plugged in for that. I'll have to dust something off and > > get it going. > > PCs can read RX50s if you have a 5.25 inch drive. DOS, or old enough > versions of Windows that you can issue BIOS calls work. On Linux, > you can set the floppy parameters to 80 tracks, 10 sectors, single > sided, and then standard utilities like dd will work. If you have a > floppy image you may need to process the interleaving to get to an > image other file system utilities will handle. > > My FLX utility (on my Subversion server or in simhtools) can do > this. I have a newer version in Python that can be used as a > library, and includes an interleave/de-interleave tool. > > paul > > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
I think you need 1.2M floppy drives for this. I seem to remember THAT 360k drives don't work for reading RX50s. Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A Original message From: Paul Koning Date: 3/20/17 6:45 AM (GMT-07:00) To: Ethan Dicks Cc: SIMH Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 > On Mar 19, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > ... > I have a number of ways to read RX50s, but nothing is presently set up > and plugged in for that. I'll have to dust something off and get it > going. PCs can read RX50s if you have a 5.25 inch drive. DOS, or old enough versions of Windows that you can issue BIOS calls work. On Linux, you can set the floppy parameters to 80 tracks, 10 sectors, single sided, and then standard utilities like dd will work. If you have a floppy image you may need to process the interleaving to get to an image other file system utilities will handle. My FLX utility (on my Subversion server or in simhtools) can do this. I have a newer version in Python that can be used as a library, and includes an interleave/de-interleave tool. paul ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Mon, Mar 20, 2017 at 8:45 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> I have a number of ways to read RX50s, but nothing is presently set up... > > PCs can read RX50s if you have a 5.25 inch drive. DOS, or old enough > versions of Windows that you can issue BIOS calls work. I have a DOS 486 I used to use for this. Its VLB I/O card toasted a while back and I haven't replaced it/rebuilt the box. One future plan for this box is to add an 8" drive to it. > On Linux, you can set the floppy parameters to 80 tracks, 10 sectors, single > sided, and then standard utilities > like dd will work. I'm mostly running from laptops these days (my primary two boxes are a MacBook Pro w/OS X, and a Dell Laptop w/Linux Mint). I have zero desktop boxes set up and running with any floppy drives. As I said, I have to dust something off. Right now, the shortest path is plugging in a MicroPDP-11 and using vtserver. -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
> On Mar 19, 2017, at 11:33 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > ... > I have a number of ways to read RX50s, but nothing is presently set up > and plugged in for that. I'll have to dust something off and get it > going. PCs can read RX50s if you have a 5.25 inch drive. DOS, or old enough versions of Windows that you can issue BIOS calls work. On Linux, you can set the floppy parameters to 80 tracks, 10 sectors, single sided, and then standard utilities like dd will work. If you have a floppy image you may need to process the interleaving to get to an image other file system utilities will handle. My FLX utility (on my Subversion server or in simhtools) can do this. I have a newer version in Python that can be used as a library, and includes an interleave/de-interleave tool. paul ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 11:03 PM, Tim Stark wrote: > KA820 technical manual have a listing of boot ROM for RX50 and KDA50. Does > anyone have a copy of EEPROM image? Can someone make a dump of console media > disks? I dug out my RX50s that are with the 8200... I found: Copy of BL-FG80P-ME "VAX 8200 UTIL PROG FLP" Copy of "VAX 8200 uCODE / CPU REV 5, patch 21" Copy of "VAX 8200 uCODE / CPU REV 4, patch 29" Original label BL-FG81F-ME "VAX 8200/8300 Console FLP" (but I won't swear the contents are 100% original. It's probable that some files were added or edited). IIRC, I made copies of the uCODE from each CPU I had before overwriting the REV 4 board with REV 5. This was approx 25 years ago, but not obliterating the old data before overwriting it is something I definitely would have done. The point was to get them the same so they would work together, and I wouldn't have cared which way it went as long as it worked. I have a number of ways to read RX50s, but nothing is presently set up and plugged in for that. I'll have to dust something off and get it going. -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
The programmatic method Rick provided (and Tim suggested enhancements to) is perfect when you’ve got a working system that has the necessary pieces to run VMS. Meanwhile, there may be systems which no longer have enough working pieces to actually run any program to extract the ROM contents, or the only OS they have access to on local storage isn’t VMS. As long as the system runs well enough to get to the >>> prompt on the system console, the console itself can be used to extract the ROM contents. For example, the MicroVAX 3900’s ROM is at 2004 and is 128Kb (0x2) in length (which is 0x8000 Longwords). To display the whole ROM contents from the console prompt: >>> E /N:7FFF 2004 P 2004 FE112211 P 20040004 01530302 P 20040008 00038931 […] P 2005FFF8 P 2005FFFC >>> Capturing the console session’s content and manipulating the captured text into a binary ROM image is left as a programming exercise. Some systems may not have the /N:nnn option in the console command language. Those would be reduced to explicit E commands for each longword of the ROM: >>>E 2004 P 2004 FE112211 >>>e P 20040004 01530302 >>>e P 20040008 00038931 Etc… - Mark From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Timothe Litt Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2017 4:39 AM To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 Don't be discouraged from posting. Nothing wrong with a quick hack. They do tend to have a longer than intended life, and considering the range of experience on the list, I thought it worth taking a couple of minutes to suggest a more robust implementation. I did restrain myself and did not point out how to provide command line arguments (foreign or DCL command table), create a VMS help file, internationalize messages or build a VMSINSTAL (or PCSI) kit :-) It is, after all, a QUICK hack... Later hardware uses FLASH parts, which aren't socketed (well, very rarely), so even for people who have the hardware skills to remove ROMs, there's a future use for a utility. Plus, it works in simulation :-) On 18-Mar-17 21:01, Rick Murphy wrote: On 3/18/2017 12:23 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: Even though someone found a utility for the 8200, a program like this is handy for other machines (and device roms). A good outline of the essentials of PFN (and file) mapping, but for general use... Timothe, well spotted (I actually noticed the lack of $close when posted, and said, oh well... it does the job.) However, remind me to never post any quick hack here ever again. :) This was used to pull an image of the ROM, initially to probe the code with VMS PATCH, eventually to dupe the ROM. In the end, it was easier to just pull the ROMs and duplicate them. -Rick ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Yeah. That is good ROM dump utility for other VAX systems when a copy of ROM images are not available for future emulators. That’s why I can’t find firmwares for VAX 4000, VAX 6000, and VAX 8500-8800 that I googled for so far. Thanks, Tim From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Rick Murphy Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2017 11:48 AM To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 On 3/16/2017 11:53 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: >Under VMS, PFN map a section to the EEPROM, copy it to normal memory & write >it to disk. Um, fair enough. I don’t suppose someone has a program already written to do this? I could have easily done that about ten or fifteen years ago, and in theory I still can, but it’ll probably take an afternoon with the VMS manuals to remember how :) Here's an example, which I wrote for the MicroVAX. Took me a bit to find this. The program creates a file called ROM.EXE and copies the boot ROM into that file. Note the "vbn=#<^X2004/512>" line - that says that the ROM is mapped into physical address 2004 on that system. Likely different for others. Size of the ROM is calculated by the "page_count" variable. -Rick .title copyrom - Copy the rom .psect datard, wrt, nopic, noshr, noexe, long .library/sys$Library:lib/ $iouv2def $secdef .psect datard, wrt, nopic, noshr, noexe, long page_count = ^X1/^X200 file_fab: $FABALQ=page_count,- FAC=,- FNM=,- FOP=UFO p1_space: .quad 0 copy_sec_base: .long 0 .long 0 rom_sec_base: .long 0 .long 0 buf_descr: .long 80 .addressbuffer buffer: .blkb 80 format: .ascid /Checksum is !XW/ .psect coderd, nowrt, pic, noshr, exe, long .entry go, ^m<> $create fab=file_fab blbsr0, 10$ ret 10$:$crmpsc_s inadr=p1_space,- retadr=copy_sec_base,- flags=#,- chan=file_fab+fab$l_stv blbsr0, 20$ ret 20$:$crmpsc_s inadr=p1_space,- retadr=rom_sec_base,- flags=#,- pagcnt=#page_count,- vbn=#<^X2004/512> blbsr0, 30$ ret 30$:movlrom_sec_base, r0 movlcopy_sec_base, r1 movl#^x1/2, r2 40$:movw(r0)+, (r1)+ sobgtr r2, 40$ movl#1,r0 ret .endgo ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Don't be discouraged from posting. Nothing wrong with a quick hack. They do tend to have a longer than intended life, and considering the range of experience on the list, I thought it worth taking a couple of minutes to suggest a more robust implementation. I did restrain myself and did not point out how to provide command line arguments (foreign or DCL command table), create a VMS help file, internationalize messages or build a VMSINSTAL (or PCSI) kit :-) It is, after all, a QUICK hack... Later hardware uses FLASH parts, which aren't socketed (well, very rarely), so even for people who have the hardware skills to remove ROMs, there's a future use for a utility. Plus, it works in simulation :-) On 18-Mar-17 21:01, Rick Murphy wrote: > On 3/18/2017 12:23 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: >> >> Even though someone found a utility for the 8200, a program like this >> is handy for other machines (and device roms). >> >> A good outline of the essentials of PFN (and file) mapping, but for >> general use... >> > Timothe, well spotted (I actually noticed the lack of $close when > posted, and said, oh well... it does the job.) > However, remind me to never post any quick hack here ever again. :) > > This was used to pull an image of the ROM, initially to probe the code > with VMS PATCH, eventually to dupe the ROM. In the end, it was easier > to just pull the ROMs and duplicate them. > -Rick > smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On 3/18/2017 12:23 PM, Timothe Litt wrote: Even though someone found a utility for the 8200, a program like this is handy for other machines (and device roms). A good outline of the essentials of PFN (and file) mapping, but for general use... Timothe, well spotted (I actually noticed the lack of $close when posted, and said, oh well... it does the job.) However, remind me to never post any quick hack here ever again. :) This was used to pull an image of the ROM, initially to probe the code with VMS PATCH, eventually to dupe the ROM. In the end, it was easier to just pull the ROMs and duplicate them. -Rick ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Even though someone found a utility for the 8200, a program like this is handy for other machines (and device roms). A good outline of the essentials of PFN (and file) mapping, but for general use... You neither compute the checksum hinted at by "format" (and "buffer"), nor do you $FAO or output it. Also, the movw @ 40$: (and the /2 above) may want to be movl /4; most VAX do longword fetches for i-stream; as I mentioned previously, word reads from I/O space may or may not be supported on a given platform/address. Note that the "checksum" is more often a CRC-32 than a 16-bit quantity. You don't need $iouv2def for this,nor lib.mlb.(I expect that you borrowed code from something that did.) I recommend an explicit $close of the file, which can provide the exit status. And .BIN would be a better file extension than .exe (since you're not writing an executable file.) Finally, the count at 40$ -1L and the 'page_count' symbol ought to be functions of something like "rom_length" so they stay consistent. e.g. rom_length = ^X1; page_count = /512; loop_count = rom_length / (2 or 4); Have fun. On 18-Mar-17 11:47, Rick Murphy wrote: > On 3/16/2017 11:53 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: >> >> >Under VMS, PFN map a section to the EEPROM, copy it to normal memory >> & write it to disk. >> >> Um, fair enough. I don’t suppose someone has a program already >> written to do this? >> >> I could have easily done that about ten or fifteen years ago, and >> in theory I still can, but it’ll probably take an afternoon with the >> VMS manuals to remember how J >> > Here's an example, which I wrote for the MicroVAX. Took me a bit to > find this. > > The program creates a file called ROM.EXE and copies the boot ROM into > that file. > Note the "vbn=#<^X2004/512>" line - that > says that the ROM is mapped into physical address 2004 on that > system. Likely different for others. Size of the ROM is calculated by > the "page_count" variable. > -Rick > > .title copyrom - Copy the rom > .psect datard, wrt, nopic, noshr, noexe, long > .library/sys$Library:lib/ > $iouv2def > $secdef > .psect datard, wrt, nopic, noshr, noexe, long > > page_count = ^X1/^X200 > > file_fab: $FABALQ=page_count,- > FAC=,- > FNM=,- > FOP=UFO > > p1_space: .quad 0 > > copy_sec_base: .long 0 > .long 0 > > rom_sec_base: .long 0 > .long 0 > buf_descr: .long 80 > .addressbuffer > buffer: .blkb 80 > > format: .ascid /Checksum is !XW/ > > .psect coderd, nowrt, pic, noshr, exe, long > > .entry go, ^m<> > > $create fab=file_fab > blbsr0, 10$ > ret > > 10$:$crmpsc_s inadr=p1_space,- > retadr=copy_sec_base,- > flags=#,- > chan=file_fab+fab$l_stv > blbsr0, 20$ > ret > > 20$:$crmpsc_s inadr=p1_space,- > retadr=rom_sec_base,- > flags=#,- > pagcnt=#page_count,- > vbn=#<^X2004/512> > blbsr0, 30$ > ret > 30$:movlrom_sec_base, r0 > movlcopy_sec_base, r1 > movl#^x1/2, r2 > 40$:movw(r0)+, (r1)+ > sobgtr r2, 40$ > movl#1,r0 > ret > .endgo > > smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On 3/16/2017 11:53 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: >Under VMS, PFN map a section to the EEPROM, copy it to normal memory & write it to disk. Um, fair enough. I don’t suppose someone has a program already written to do this? I could have easily done that about ten or fifteen years ago, and in theory I still can, but it’ll probably take an afternoon with the VMS manuals to remember how J Here's an example, which I wrote for the MicroVAX. Took me a bit to find this. The program creates a file called ROM.EXE and copies the boot ROM into that file. Note the "vbn=#<^X2004/512>" line - that says that the ROM is mapped into physical address 2004 on that system. Likely different for others. Size of the ROM is calculated by the "page_count" variable. -Rick .title copyrom - Copy the rom .psect datard, wrt, nopic, noshr, noexe, long .library/sys$Library:lib/ $iouv2def $secdef .psect datard, wrt, nopic, noshr, noexe, long page_count = ^X1/^X200 file_fab: $FABALQ=page_count,- FAC=,- FNM=,- FOP=UFO p1_space: .quad 0 copy_sec_base: .long 0 .long 0 rom_sec_base: .long 0 .long 0 buf_descr: .long 80 .addressbuffer buffer: .blkb 80 format: .ascid /Checksum is !XW/ .psect coderd, nowrt, pic, noshr, exe, long .entry go, ^m<> $create fab=file_fab blbsr0, 10$ ret 10$:$crmpsc_s inadr=p1_space,- retadr=copy_sec_base,- flags=#,- chan=file_fab+fab$l_stv blbsr0, 20$ ret 20$:$crmpsc_s inadr=p1_space,- retadr=rom_sec_base,- flags=#,- pagcnt=#page_count,- vbn=#<^X2004/512> blbsr0, 30$ ret 30$:movlrom_sec_base, r0 movlcopy_sec_base, r1 movl#^x1/2, r2 40$:movw(r0)+, (r1)+ sobgtr r2, 40$ movl#1,r0 ret .endgo ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Bob, Yeah. Please let us know they are available for downloads. I still need them. Thanks, Tim -Original Message- From: Robert Armstrong [mailto:b...@jfcl.com] Sent: Friday, March 17, 2017 5:44 PM To: simh@trailing-edge.com Cc: 'Tim Stark' Subject: RE: [Simh] VAX 8200 I fired up the 8350 today and (amazingly!) it still works. Sadly some of my disk drives are not so well off, but I was still able to boot it. I've imaged the console RX50, which is an RT11 file system, and the two diagnostic floppies ("DIAG SUPER" and "UTIL"). Those last two are in Files-11 format. FWIW, the DIAG UTIL floppy contains an image of the EEPROM as copied by the DEC diagnostic program. I've converted all three diskettes to simh RX50 image files, which I presume is the most useful format. Where would be a good place to archive them for the 82xx/83xx simulator project? BTW, if anybody has any RA7x drives that they'd be willing to part with, please let me know. I'll be eternally in your debt! Two of the three drives I have on that machine appear to have died since I last used it. Sadly, keeping the electronics running is not nearly as hard as keeping the mechanical parts going... Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
It's also fun if they install a tape into the tk50 drive with the info pamphlet that they always shipped with them. It couldn't retract the tape, and you couldn't pull the paper out because of the tight fit. Time to disassemble the drive, again. Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A Original message From: Ethan Dicks Date: 3/17/17 1:21 PM (GMT-07:00) To: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Gary Lee Phillips wrote: > Looking at what images I can find on the web, TU-80 seems correct. The one > we had was just generally flaky, I guess. It was 1600 bpi, 2400 foot tapes, > yes. 2400' tapes (1.5mil thickness) were standard but sometime later, thinner (1.0 mil?) 3600' tapes came out. I have read tape drive instructions that say not to use those tapes in this machine. I wouldn't be surprised if most DEC tape drives didn't like thinner tape. > The MicroVAX we added later came with a TK-50 that never had any problems. That was not a universal experience. We had a couple of TK-50 drives and we found them semi-reliable. They mostly worked, but we had occasional spectacular problems. I had to dismantle the drive more than once to manually rewind a tape back into the tape case. We also lost a few of the pickup barbs. I have a fresh NOS one - I need to CAD it up and experiment with various plastic films to see about lasering some replacements. Once the tip bends, it needs to be replaced or it will fail at some random but inconvenient time. -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On 2017-03-17 19:35, Gary Lee Phillips wrote: Looking at what images I can find on the web, TU-80 seems correct. The one we had was just generally flaky, I guess. It was 1600 bpi, 2400 foot tapes, yes. 1600 bpi would definitely be the TU80 then. The MicroVAX we added later came with a TK-50 that never had any problems. That came in when a second unrelated project was added that required a VAX because code for it was written by a partner company that used DEC equipment exclusively. That's funny. I've seldom experienced any drive with more issues and problems than the TK50. While I don't particularly like the TU80 (slow, and don't store much), I never had much problem with them. The TU81 is much better, though. The TK50 on the other hand can be very annoying. First of all, you regularly need to open them up and clean them. Second, the operation is, depending on firmware version, rather broken, and can refuse to let a tape out, meaning you have to open the drive up and manually get the tape out, and then fiddly with it a lot to wind the tape in. Thirdly, the bloody pickup sometimes jumps the arm holding in, meaning once more you need to open the drive up to hook the pickup back on the arm. When I worked at DEC, we had a TK50 hooked up to a VAX-11/750, and that drive was always half dismantled, so we easily could get into it and fix it when one of those things happened. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On 2017-03-17 18:23, Paul Koning wrote: On Mar 17, 2017, at 1:17 PM, Wilm Boerhout wrote: Gary Lee Phillips schreef op 17-3-2017 om 16:54: Ethan Dicks mailto:ethan.di...@gmail.com>> wrote: That's earlier than is possible... the model was introduced in Jan, 1986. Don't know date of first ship. Well I did say "around 1985 or so." After 30+ years, I'd say that was a pretty close guess. The tape drive was not TK50. It was standard reel to reel media, horizontal like an studio audio tape deck, with a cover that had to be lifted in order to use it. The disk drive was housed in the same cabinet in a drawer below the tape unit. The tape drive was "finicky" and seemed to work only with tapes ordered through DEC. The standard tapes our much larger IBM shop used never read back correctly when written on it. Could it have been a TS11, nicknamed "Tape Stretcher-11" by those (me included) who tried to use it with ever longer, reels of tape and thus ever thinner tape? Probably not, because the TS11 was a vertical unit. The top mounted horizontal one is the TU80 and friends. Agreed. The description only math the TU80 and TU81. While those two drives look almost identical, the electronics inside what pretty different. (And the TA models were the same drives, but with a different interface.) There was also a drive that had the tape loaded from the front, horizontally (RK05 fashion), I forgot what that was called. It wasn't all that reliable since it had to do autoload, no manual threading possible. TSV05. I don't have super much experience with it, but I was constantly surprised that it was more reliable than I would have expected. (Which isn't saying much...) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
I fired up the 8350 today and (amazingly!) it still works. Sadly some of my disk drives are not so well off, but I was still able to boot it. I've imaged the console RX50, which is an RT11 file system, and the two diagnostic floppies ("DIAG SUPER" and "UTIL"). Those last two are in Files-11 format. FWIW, the DIAG UTIL floppy contains an image of the EEPROM as copied by the DEC diagnostic program. I've converted all three diskettes to simh RX50 image files, which I presume is the most useful format. Where would be a good place to archive them for the 82xx/83xx simulator project? BTW, if anybody has any RA7x drives that they'd be willing to part with, please let me know. I'll be eternally in your debt! Two of the three drives I have on that machine appear to have died since I last used it. Sadly, keeping the electronics running is not nearly as hard as keeping the mechanical parts going... Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Ethan Dicks >> 2400' tapes (1.5mil thickness) were standard but sometime later, thinner (1.0 >> mil?) 3600' tapes came out. > At LOTS (the Stanford academic computing facility where I worked from > 1984-91), > we did nightly incrementals and weekly full backups... > > On the -20s, weekly backups took up 3 2400' reels (only a small portion of the > 3rd reel being used). When Memorex came out with their 3600' tapes, I > switched > us over to using them so that weekly backups (rotated on a monthly basis) took > up less space; nightly incrementals used 2400' because it was almost unheard > of > fot need more than 1, and they were a sunk cost. Nice save there. I managed our wall of tape. I would definitely loved to have removed 20%-30%... > The 3600' tapes worked very nicely on TU78/TU79 drives and on the STC drives > on > the SC-30M, and I don't recall any complaints about them on the TU81s attached > to the VAXen. As operations manager, I would have heard. We had a TU78 as our big, main tape drive. It was really fiddly about autoload and we had DEC FS out a *lot* when it was under contract. After we couldn't afford to keep them and all the maintenance fell on me, I did what I could with it, and we did use it a lot, but there were some tapes that just would not play nice. We cleaned the glass and did all the things. Some tapes always worked. Some worked most of the time. A few just would not autoload. Once we could get a tape loaded and on BOT, the drive was fantastic. I never had enough data about brands, etc., to figure out the loading problem. Our TU80 was fine with whatever we put into it. I never had a single problem with the one from the office except after a year or so outside the data center (at my house), the vacuum pump became unhappy, due to, I think, high humidity in my non-air-conditioned house. The TS03 was a beast that shredded tapes if you did not do exactly the right things. I didn't use it much but a couple of our folks spent a lot of time swearing at it. >> I have read tape drive instructions that say not >> to use those tapes in this machine. I wouldn't be surprised if most DEC tape >> drives didn't like thinner tape. I _think_ the warning I recently read about 1mil tapes was in the manuals for a front-loader HP 7879 drive that I was working on last year (it passes most of its tests but is still a little cranky). Your experience with thin tapes is vastly greater than mine. Good to confirm DEC tape drives are solid. -ethan P.S. - that TU78 was one of the 4-5 items I could not save when the company folded. ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
> From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:21:54 -0400 > On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Gary Lee Phillips > wrote: >> Looking at what images I can find on the web, TU-80 seems correct. The one >> we had was just generally flaky, I guess. It was 1600 bpi, 2400 foot tapes, >> yes. > 2400' tapes (1.5mil thickness) were standard but sometime later, thinner (1.0 > mil?) 3600' tapes came out. I have read tape drive instructions that say not > to use those tapes in this machine. I wouldn't be surprised if most DEC tape > drives didn't like thinner tape. At LOTS (the Stanford academic computing facility where I worked from 1984-91), we did nightly incrementals and weekly full backups on the DEC-20s, SC-30M (a DEC-20 clone), and 2 VAXen, the staff-support 3600 and the student available 8800 (both running Ultrix). On the -20s, weekly backups took up 3 2400' reels (only a small portion of the 3rd reel being used). When Memorex came out with their 3600' tapes, I switched us over to using them so that weekly backups (rotated on a monthly basis) took up less space; nightly incrementals used 2400' because it was almost unheard of fot need more than 1, and they were a sunk cost. The 3600' tapes worked very nicely on TU78/TU79 drives and on the STC drives on the SC-30M, and I don't recall any complaints about them on the TU81s attached to the VAXen. As operations manager, I would have heard. Rich ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Gary Lee Phillips wrote: > Looking at what images I can find on the web, TU-80 seems correct. The one > we had was just generally flaky, I guess. It was 1600 bpi, 2400 foot tapes, > yes. 2400' tapes (1.5mil thickness) were standard but sometime later, thinner (1.0 mil?) 3600' tapes came out. I have read tape drive instructions that say not to use those tapes in this machine. I wouldn't be surprised if most DEC tape drives didn't like thinner tape. > The MicroVAX we added later came with a TK-50 that never had any problems. That was not a universal experience. We had a couple of TK-50 drives and we found them semi-reliable. They mostly worked, but we had occasional spectacular problems. I had to dismantle the drive more than once to manually rewind a tape back into the tape case. We also lost a few of the pickup barbs. I have a fresh NOS one - I need to CAD it up and experiment with various plastic films to see about lasering some replacements. Once the tip bends, it needs to be replaced or it will fail at some random but inconvenient time. -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Looking at what images I can find on the web, TU-80 seems correct. The one we had was just generally flaky, I guess. It was 1600 bpi, 2400 foot tapes, yes. The MicroVAX we added later came with a TK-50 that never had any problems. That came in when a second unrelated project was added that required a VAX because code for it was written by a partner company that used DEC equipment exclusively. --Gary ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 1:23 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> The tape drive was not TK50. It was standard reel to reel media, horizontal >>> like an studio audio tape deck, with a cover that had to be lifted in order >>> to use it. The disk drive was housed in the same cabinet in a drawer below >>> the tape unit. That gives me a better picture - I was thinking the O.P. said the tape drive was in the same cabinet as the CPU. Yeah... TU80, TU81, etc... Was not uncommon to have a full-sized disk drive (RA81, RA82...) below one of those. Would only be TU80 if the box had a DWBUA Unibus adapter. > The tape drive was "finicky" and seemed to work only with tapes ordered > through DEC. I don't remember any media problems with any of the tape drives I worked with, but I do know there were some tapes that were thinner to get more feet on a reel. I'm pretty sure we didn't use those. We bought our tapes by the pallet from a 3rd party, not DEC, largely because we sent our stuff to customers out on 9-track. They went in and out the door very rapidly. > The top mounted horizontal one is the TU80 and friends. Yep. > There was also a drive that had the tape loaded from the front, horizontally > (RK05 fashion), I forgot what that was called. It wasn't all that reliable > since it had to do autoload, no manual threading possible. TS05/TSV05 (Unibus vs Qbus). I also have a later drive of that style, a TSZ05, with a SCSI interface. I use it to read most of my old tapes. Cipher brand transport mechanism, typically. -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
TSV05 or the unibus versions. Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A Original message From: Paul Koning Date: 3/17/17 11:23 AM (GMT-07:00) To: Wilm Boerhout Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 > On Mar 17, 2017, at 1:17 PM, Wilm Boerhout wrote: > > Gary Lee Phillips schreef op 17-3-2017 om 16:54: >> Ethan Dicks mailto:ethan.di...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >That's earlier than is possible... the model was introduced in Jan, >> >1986. Don't know date of first ship. >> >> Well I did say "around 1985 or so." After 30+ years, I'd say that was a >> pretty close guess. >> >> The tape drive was not TK50. It was standard reel to reel media, horizontal >> like an studio audio tape deck, with a cover that had to be lifted in order >> to use it. The disk drive was housed in the same cabinet in a drawer below >> the tape unit. The tape drive was "finicky" and seemed to work only with >> tapes ordered through DEC. The standard tapes our much larger IBM shop used >> never read back correctly when written on it. > Could it have been a TS11, nicknamed "Tape Stretcher-11" by those (me > included) who tried to use it with ever longer, reels of tape and thus ever > thinner tape? Probably not, because the TS11 was a vertical unit. The top mounted horizontal one is the TU80 and friends. There was also a drive that had the tape loaded from the front, horizontally (RK05 fashion), I forgot what that was called. It wasn't all that reliable since it had to do autoload, no manual threading possible. paul ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On 17-Mar-17 13:23, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Mar 17, 2017, at 1:17 PM, Wilm Boerhout wrote: >> >> Gary Lee Phillips schreef op 17-3-2017 om 16:54: >>> Ethan Dicks mailto:ethan.di...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> That's earlier than is possible... the model was introduced in Jan, 1986. Don't know date of first ship. >>> Well I did say "around 1985 or so." After 30+ years, I'd say that was a >>> pretty close guess. >>> >>> The tape drive was not TK50. It was standard reel to reel media, horizontal >>> like an studio audio tape deck, with a cover that had to be lifted in order >>> to use it. The disk drive was housed in the same cabinet in a drawer below >>> the tape unit. The tape drive was "finicky" and seemed to work only with >>> tapes ordered through DEC. The standard tapes our much larger IBM shop used >>> never read back correctly when written on it. >> Could it have been a TS11, nicknamed "Tape Stretcher-11" by those (me >> included) who tried to use it with ever longer, reels of tape and thus ever >> thinner tape? > Probably not, because the TS11 was a vertical unit. The top mounted > horizontal one is the TU80 and friends. There was also a drive that had the > tape loaded from the front, horizontally (RK05 fashion), I forgot what that > was called. It wasn't all that reliable since it had to do autoload, no > manual threading possible. TS[Z]05 > paul > > > smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
> On Mar 17, 2017, at 12:18 PM, Gary Lee Phillips wrote: > ... > In any case, the issue I had was that the particular drive on the 8200 would > not read back tapes written even by itself. We used it only for backups from > the hard drive. DEC support was called in several times to adjust, calibrate, > test, etc. It worked best only with DEC-branded media and if the heads were > cleaned before every single use, and finally they just shrugged and said "Use > only our media." Of course, theirs cost about twice what we paid for the > large bulk quantities of 9 track tape used in the IBM center on the floor > below. It wasn't my problem at that point, and my boss just ordered some > tapes from DEC. Wow. That's quite outrageous. My boss would have said "replace the entire drive and controller if necessary"; the answer you got was entirely unacceptable and the people who said it had no business working for DEC. paul ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
> On Mar 17, 2017, at 1:17 PM, Wilm Boerhout wrote: > > Gary Lee Phillips schreef op 17-3-2017 om 16:54: >> Ethan Dicks mailto:ethan.di...@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> >That's earlier than is possible... the model was introduced in Jan, >> >1986. Don't know date of first ship. >> >> Well I did say "around 1985 or so." After 30+ years, I'd say that was a >> pretty close guess. >> >> The tape drive was not TK50. It was standard reel to reel media, horizontal >> like an studio audio tape deck, with a cover that had to be lifted in order >> to use it. The disk drive was housed in the same cabinet in a drawer below >> the tape unit. The tape drive was "finicky" and seemed to work only with >> tapes ordered through DEC. The standard tapes our much larger IBM shop used >> never read back correctly when written on it. > Could it have been a TS11, nicknamed "Tape Stretcher-11" by those (me > included) who tried to use it with ever longer, reels of tape and thus ever > thinner tape? Probably not, because the TS11 was a vertical unit. The top mounted horizontal one is the TU80 and friends. There was also a drive that had the tape loaded from the front, horizontally (RK05 fashion), I forgot what that was called. It wasn't all that reliable since it had to do autoload, no manual threading possible. paul ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Paul Koning schreef op 17-3-2017 om 17:05: [snip] More in general, if drive B wont' read tapes written by drive A, the fault could be at either end (or both). It could even be in the standard -- all too many standards, for example a whole lot of modern network protocol standards, permit implementations that conform but don't interoperate. In some cases, the authors get annoyed when you point this out and call it a standards bug. (By contrast, the DECnet standards were always written to the rule that "conformance implies interoperability".) "We call it compatible for a reason. If it were the same, we would say so" /W ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Gary Lee Phillips schreef op 17-3-2017 om 16:54: Ethan Dicks mailto:ethan.di...@gmail.com>> wrote: >That's earlier than is possible... the model was introduced in Jan, >1986. Don't know date of first ship. Well I did say "around 1985 or so." After 30+ years, I'd say that was a pretty close guess. The tape drive was not TK50. It was standard reel to reel media, horizontal like an studio audio tape deck, with a cover that had to be lifted in order to use it. The disk drive was housed in the same cabinet in a drawer below the tape unit. The tape drive was "finicky" and seemed to work only with tapes ordered through DEC. The standard tapes our much larger IBM shop used never read back correctly when written on it. Could it have been a TS11, nicknamed "Tape Stretcher-11" by those (me included) who tried to use it with ever longer, reels of tape and thus ever thinner tape? /*Wilm* ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 11:05 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > FWIW, I just saw a comment that some IBM systems (early 360, perhaps) had > a habit of inserting short gaps into the middle of tape records because of > memory latency issues. Apparently IBM's drives could read such stuff but > other people's drives would not, fair enough since such tapes are not > standards-compliant. > > Our IBM stuff was (IIRC) 3084 by that time, or if not, a dual 370 set up. I don't remember ever trying to do data interchange on tape with the IBM systems using that particular drive. When that need came up later on we deliberately avoided DEC hardware for the second tape drive and got a stand alone drive unit that was vertically mounted with vacuum columns. I don't remember the maker's name, but it worked as expected, never required a service call, and read or wrote any brand of media we used. In any case, the issue I had was that the particular drive on the 8200 would not read back tapes written even by itself. We used it only for backups from the hard drive. DEC support was called in several times to adjust, calibrate, test, etc. It worked best only with DEC-branded media and if the heads were cleaned before every single use, and finally they just shrugged and said "Use only our media." Of course, theirs cost about twice what we paid for the large bulk quantities of 9 track tape used in the IBM center on the floor below. It wasn't my problem at that point, and my boss just ordered some tapes from DEC. --Gary ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
> On Mar 17, 2017, at 11:54 AM, Gary Lee Phillips wrote: > > ... > The tape drive was not TK50. It was standard reel to reel media, horizontal > like an studio audio tape deck, with a cover that had to be lifted in order > to use it. The disk drive was housed in the same cabinet in a drawer below > the tape unit. The tape drive was "finicky" and seemed to work only with > tapes ordered through DEC. The standard tapes our much larger IBM shop used > never read back correctly when written on it. That sounds like a TU80, TU81, TA80, or TA81, all basically the same transport with variations in density and controller interconnect. Interesting about the "finicky" thing, I don't have any personal experience with feeding it tapes from other companies. FWIW, I just saw a comment that some IBM systems (early 360, perhaps) had a habit of inserting short gaps into the middle of tape records because of memory latency issues. Apparently IBM's drives could read such stuff but other people's drives would not, fair enough since such tapes are not standards-compliant. More in general, if drive B wont' read tapes written by drive A, the fault could be at either end (or both). It could even be in the standard -- all too many standards, for example a whole lot of modern network protocol standards, permit implementations that conform but don't interoperate. In some cases, the authors get annoyed when you point this out and call it a standards bug. (By contrast, the DECnet standards were always written to the rule that "conformance implies interoperability".) paul ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Ethan Dicks wrote: >That's earlier than is possible... the model was introduced in Jan, >1986. Don't know date of first ship. Well I did say "around 1985 or so." After 30+ years, I'd say that was a pretty close guess. The tape drive was not TK50. It was standard reel to reel media, horizontal like an studio audio tape deck, with a cover that had to be lifted in order to use it. The disk drive was housed in the same cabinet in a drawer below the tape unit. The tape drive was "finicky" and seemed to work only with tapes ordered through DEC. The standard tapes our much larger IBM shop used never read back correctly when written on it. I was not party to the administrative decision to purchase the VAX, but it was related to some joint ventures that required a kind of real time connectivity that IBM equipment could not provide. I enjoyed the opportunity of learning and working with the hardware and providing system support but wasn't involved in the application end much. After a couple of years, the project was terminated without any end result, and I moved to other employment just before that happened but kept the VMS bug in my blood. --Gary ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
>Timothe Litt (l...@ieee.org) wrote: >Under VMS, PFN map a section to the EEPROM, copy it to normal memory & write >it to disk. Actually it looks like the EEPROM utility (VAX 8200 Owner’s Manual, chapter 3) can save the entire EEPROM image to a file. I’ll see what I can do. Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
>Under VMS, PFN map a section to the EEPROM, copy it to normal memory & write >it to disk. Um, fair enough. I don’t suppose someone has a program already written to do this? I could have easily done that about ten or fifteen years ago, and in theory I still can, but it’ll probably take an afternoon with the VMS manuals to remember how J Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Under VMS, PFN map a section to the EEPROM, copy it to normal memory & write it to disk. Be careful with which instructions you use; IO space (where it lives) may have alignment/size restrictions. MOVL should be safe. On 16-Mar-17 23:38, Robert Armstrong wrote: >> Does anyone have a copy of EEPROM image? > Do you know a way to extract a copy of the EEPROM image from the machine? > If not, is the chip socketed? Do you know the part number off hand? If it's > socketed AND it's a standard part I can probably read it in my EPROM > programmer. > > Bob > > > > ___ > Simh mailing list > Simh@trailing-edge.com > http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
>Does anyone have a copy of EEPROM image? Do you know a way to extract a copy of the EEPROM image from the machine? If not, is the chip socketed? Do you know the part number off hand? If it's socketed AND it's a standard part I can probably read it in my EPROM programmer. Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
Yeah. Yes, it need console media for SRM firmware. There is 16k EEPROM in VAX 8200 contains config setting and bootstrap codes for RX50 and KDA50 drives. When power up started, a RX50 bootstrap will be copied into boot RAM at starting 2009 from 20098000 then execute it. KA820 technical manual have a listing of boot ROM for RX50 and KDA50. Does anyone have a copy of EEPROM image? Can someone make a dump of console media disks? Yes, KA820 supports multi-processor system. Tim -Original Message- From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Robert Armstrong Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 4:07 PM To: 'Ethan Dicks' ; simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 > Ethan Dicks (ethan.di...@gmail.com) wrote: >I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). I have a running 8350 as well, should you need a dump of the console media or something. It is, I believe, the physically smallest BI bus VAX, and therefore interesting for those reason. It's the only such machine that I could fit in my garage :-) It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have and equally interesting for that reason too. FWIW, I've always wondered if the limitation to two CPUs was purely for testing and support reasons - it doesn't seem that there's any reason why you could not plug in three or even more CPU cards. Bob Armstrong ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 5:14 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: >> I might have a DCL script to build a console floppy from files on the system >> volume > > FWIW, on the 7xx machines there was a DCL script provided by DEC called > CONSCOPY. Yes. I recall it. > It used EXCHANGE to copy the console media to a disk container and vice > versa. Yep. > Can't remember if the 8200/8300 machines had the same thing, but I wouldn't > be surprised. I'm pretty sure the 8200/8300 console floppies were in RT11 > format, so EXCHANGE would do the job. IIRC, yes, the floppies are in RT-11 format, and on a true random-access device like a floppy, CONSCOPY or anything else should just do the job. What I started with, though, was managing 11/730s in the mid-80s and was optimizing the order of files on the console tape to be in the order they were requested, so a 30-minute boot process fell to under 5 minutes... nearly all the time spent was doing serial transfers with far, far less tape motion. This optimization wasn't required with RX50 console media, but I still likely backed things up out of deeply-ingrained habit. Have to fire up that box and check. -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
> I might have a DCL script to build a console floppy from files on the system > volume FWIW, on the 7xx machines there was a DCL script provided by DEC called CONSCOPY. It used EXCHANGE to copy the console media to a disk container and vice versa. Can't remember if the 8200/8300 machines had the same thing, but I wouldn't be surprised. I'm pretty sure the 8200/8300 console floppies were in RT11 format, so EXCHANGE would do the job. Bob ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:07 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: >> Ethan Dicks (ethan.di...@gmail.com) wrote: >>I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). > > I have a running 8350 as well, should you need a dump of the console media > or something. So far, so good... and I might have a DCL script to build a console floppy from files on the system volume (I was in the habit of ensuring I could do that from my days with the 11/730 and 11/725). > It is, I believe, the physically smallest BI bus VAX, and therefore > interesting for those reason. Yep. One box for the CPU, memory and peripherals, and all inside a 42"-tall rack. Just add disk. Small footprint. > It's the only such machine that I could fit in my garage :-) With a VAXBI bus? Yeah... there were equal (11/730) or smaller (11/725) Unibus systems, but it was the smallest VAXBI machine outside of the rare VAXstation 8000. > It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have and equally > interesting for that reason too. Sure. > FWIW, I've always wondered if the limitation to two CPUs was purely for > testing and support reasons - it doesn't seem that there's any reason why you > could not plug in three or even more CPU cards. What I remember from the 80s is that you _can_ plug in more than 2 cards (you'd need an ID plug on the backplane for additional CPUs, IIRC) but you don't get any more performance from it. Two CPUs rather maxes out the VAXBI bus since all memory and I/O traffic are on the one bus. Also, from back when typical memory cards were 2MB and 4MB, removing memory to add CPUs was also the path to a performance loss. With the MS820-CA 16MB card (of which I have zero), that alleviates this somewhat - 32MB of RAM in an 8200 is not a terrible thing and then only takes up 2 slots. I should say my 8200 has a DWBUA Unibus adapter, but I have 2 VAXBI card cages in the BA-32 and the Unibus DD11-DK is in a BA-11 off to the side. One configuration had the DD11-DK _in_ the BA-32 next to a single VAXBI backplane and there, you had little room for extra anything. -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
> Robert Armstrong wrote: > I have a running 8350 [...] I've always wondered if the limitation to two > CPUs was purely for testing and support reasons - > it doesn't seem that there's any reason why you could not plug in three or > even more CPU cards. By the way of the anecdotes, Bernd Ulmann who owns a huge (likely the largest in the world by now) collection of VAX/Alpha equipment (a shed filled with various models of VAXes, including 7000, 6000 vector, 8000 series, MicroVAXes, VAXstations, HSCs, star couplers, RA disks, you name it), including the machines that were never released or were released in a singular quantities (like 32-processor Alpha), owns VAX 8330 (?) -- or anyway a 3-CPU 8000 series machine. The machine was being designed by DEC Germany, and was intended to be a 3-processor edition. However it was generating spurious bus resets and DEC engineering was never able to figure why. Thus the machine was never releases commercially and the only engineering sample had been sitting for a good while in DEC/Compaq engineering storage before being dumped to Bernd's collection. * * * I also cannot help but remember the other story Bernd had, about that 32-processor Alpha. It was special-ordered by some German company, but while Compaq Germany was being putting it together, the company that ordered the machine went out of business. So Compaq held the machine for a while but several years later dumped it to Bernd as well. When I was visiting Bernd some years ago, he still never turned the machine on (unlike most of the others in his collection), since the power draw would put the lights out in the whole village where the shed resides... he was still figuring out the power feed. * * * And then, my favorite of Bernd's tales, is about the machine that had the most exotic fate: it was a MicroVAX III that was being shipped from the Western Germany to the USSR in the late 1980's, and German customs intercepted the shipping (infrequently, but occasionally they would succeeded in that). While German authorities were trying to figure out what to do with the intercepted shipping, the customs put it in the warehouse, where it sat for the next 20 years. In the late 2000's German customs noticed that this box had been sitting there for 20 years, and it was apparently the time to do something about it after all. The box ended up at Bernd's barn. Bernd opened it, powered up this MicroVAX and installed VMS on it -- it worked flawlessly. Few months after learning this story from Bernd (he told it to me while pointing at that MicroVAX) I was at my old VAXcluster room about 2 hours from Moscow (machines were long gone by then), taking out the old tapes -- in the hopes of finding some retro-interesting software/files there. My friend and I took select tapes from the storage shelves down to the building entrance, but we needed to transport them to another building on site located a mile away, where the tapes could be kept temporarily before smuggling them out beyond the secure perimeter. Tapes were bulky and heavy, and carrying them this distance would have been quite an exercise, so my friend called his colleague, who had a car pass to the site. His colleague came in the car, and while we were loading the tapes into the trunk, he looked at those tapes recorded 20 to 25 years ago and said: – I kind of doubt you'll be able to read them. In response I told him a story about Bernd's MicroVAX that sat for 20 years in the box and then worked just fine. To which my friend's colleague responded with an instinctive exclamation, without an instant of thinking: – Of course! What could have ever happened to it?! It's a VAX!___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
I can note here that we ran a 4-CPU 8350 (8354? :-) with Ultrix. Worked very well! This was also the machine which I used when writing the NetBSD vax SMP support. -- Ragge Den 2017-03-16 kl. 21:17, skrev Dan Gahlinger: the vax smp emulator seems to support that theory. Dan Original message From: Robert Armstrong Date: 2017-03-16 4:07 PM (GMT-05:00) To: 'Ethan Dicks' , simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 > Ethan Dicks (ethan.di...@gmail.com) wrote: >I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). I have a running 8350 as well, should you need a dump of the console media or something. It is, I believe, the physically smallest BI bus VAX, and therefore interesting for those reason. It's the only such machine that I could fit in my garage :-) It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have and equally interesting for that reason too. FWIW, I've always wondered if the limitation to two CPUs was purely for testing and support reasons - it doesn't seem that there's any reason why you could not plug in three or even more CPU cards. Bob Armstrong ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Gary Lee Phillips wrote: > In fact there's very little evidence on the web that the 8200 ever existed. > The first VAX I ever worked with (around 1985 or so) was an 8200... That's earlier than is possible... the model was introduced in Jan, 1986. Don't know date of first ship. > Anyway, yes, the console was an oddity. So was the terrible vacuum-less tape > drive built into the cabinet. I don't know what tape drive you are thinking of (TK50? TM03? TA81+?), but the 8200 was in a BA-32 box in the top of a 42"-tall cabinet and inside the lower part of the cabinet were a couple of cross-bar arms and cable restraints, and on the back, it was approx 50% I/O bulkheads for the ends of all those cables. http://hampage.hu/vax/kepek/Vax8200.jpg -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
the vax smp emulator seems to support that theory. Dan Original message From: Robert Armstrong Date: 2017-03-16 4:07 PM (GMT-05:00) To: 'Ethan Dicks' , simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX 8200 > Ethan Dicks (ethan.di...@gmail.com) wrote: >I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). I have a running 8350 as well, should you need a dump of the console media or something. It is, I believe, the physically smallest BI bus VAX, and therefore interesting for those reason. It's the only such machine that I could fit in my garage :-) It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have and equally interesting for that reason too. FWIW, I've always wondered if the limitation to two CPUs was purely for testing and support reasons - it doesn't seem that there's any reason why you could not plug in three or even more CPU cards. Bob Armstrong ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
In fact there's very little evidence on the web that the 8200 ever existed. The first VAX I ever worked with (around 1985 or so) was an 8200 and there was a point where I was convinced I had remembered the model ID incorrectly because I could find nothing about it online. Then I found a promotional button in my desk drawer, rectangular with rounded corners, that had a photo of the floor-standing unit and the text "VAX 8200" on it. So I knew it had existed. Must not have been a lot of them sold, though. Anyway, yes, the console was an oddity. So was the terrible vacuum-less tape drive built into the cabinet. We eventually purchased a real drive with vacuum columns because you could never count on reading a backup tape again after it was written. The system ran VMS 4.4 and performed reliably otherwise. We eventually added a Microvax II and a PDP-11 to the complex. The PDP ran RSX and operated as a routing link between the IBM mainframes with JES2/MVS/TSO and the DECNet nodes. I even published an article about using a custom symbiont to make the mainframe print queues look like a regular VMS printer queue on the VAXen. That was a galaxy long ago and far away. It would be fun to see a working 8200 in SimH, but sounds like a major job reconstructing it. --Gary ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
> Ethan Dicks (ethan.di...@gmail.com) wrote: >I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). I have a running 8350 as well, should you need a dump of the console media or something. It is, I believe, the physically smallest BI bus VAX, and therefore interesting for those reason. It's the only such machine that I could fit in my garage :-) It's also the only multi-processor VAX system that I have and equally interesting for that reason too. FWIW, I've always wondered if the limitation to two CPUs was purely for testing and support reasons - it doesn't seem that there's any reason why you could not plug in three or even more CPU cards. Bob Armstrong ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] VAX 8200
On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Bob Supnik wrote: > There's an almost total lack of 8200 (aka V-11 or Scorpio) documentation on > the web. So true. I happen to have one (from when I worked for Jim Ebright). It's the only mid-sized VAX I have plugged in at the moment. > I have chip pictures (http://simh.trailing-edge.com/semi/v11.html), Nice. I can scan my boards if the packaging/heatsinks are interesting enough to capture. > 2. The 8200 has a patchable control store. This was used to avoid updating > the microcode chips (five of them, all VLSI) for every microcode bug. I remember having to update one of my two T1001 boards so I could run them together as a VAX8300 (our box was purchased with a single CPU, then I picked up a second CPU board for ~$100 with some random microcode rev, and got it all working as our first SMP machine). This reminds me I should probably archive my console RX50 media. Nice little machine. For us, it was a nice bump up from our 11/750, but by the time it came along, it was mostly a development machine, so it was pretty much a single-user workstation for me. Our 11/750 was still the general office machine with our productivity apps, e-mail, etc. The 8200 was capable of so much more but its big accomplishment for us was allowing us to make our VAXBI COMBOARD, and for _only_ $13,000! -ethan ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh