Re: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
Terry Collins wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yep, this is very limited use. Well it depends on the expectations of the users. If everybody wants to run StarOffice, then there isn't much hope of supporting them on discarded hardware. Pentiums run SO WP okay. If users hqve an explanation of getting the latest, greatest and fastest, then they would not be the sort of donee CB would want. I have this problem with my surplus list (http://www.woa.com.au/surplus) - some people WANT everything, but have a strange reluctance to pay postage to have it sent to them. snip Unfortunately the current evidence is that hardware (not very modern hardware though) is easy to get and takers are few. If you have access to machines of the 486DX4 100 category or there abouts with some memory and HDDs (just the box - no monitors needed) I know an IM class that could use a couple. (As for pickup, I would be happy to arrange that.) Stay well and happy Heracles -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, Peter Jason Hardy wrote: The figure that predator quoted (600,000 rather than 800k) was probably from a study done by Dames and Moore consulting engineers, using some ABS statistics in their report. So there are stacks of them around in theory. The problem is that 286's, 386's and 486's are very limited use. Beowulf! :-) Seriously, a quick exercise: Approach clueless salesman in the computer retailer of your choice. I picked the one I work for. Explain that you're getting cable access and would like to share it with a small home network. Ask for recommendations as to what sort of hardware/software you'll need. I was quoted a fairly high-end machine, running Windows 2k with a proprietary connection-sharing program. Not to mention a "home firewall" package, and everything else I'd need to be able to ssh in. Total cost around $3000. Tell clueless salesman that you've already arranged for a P90 with 16Mb of RAM to do the job with Linux, at a total cost of about $60 for two new network cards. Laugh at the expression on his face. You don't work for Gerry, do you ? -- Regards, Jon -- "It is irresponsible to connect a Windows machine to the Internet" ... John Wiltshire (SLUG) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So there are stacks of them around in theory. The problem is that
286's, 386's and 486's are very limited use.
Depends on what you mean by limited.
486s can serve as X-terminals
386s can do text based web browsing and mail, again diskless
286s can do telnet or ssh diskless (go to http://www.vein.hu/~nagyd if you
disbelieve)
Yep, this is very limited use.
Although, I still run five 486 CPU boxes (2 WFWG, 1 WIN95, 1 Novell
4.11, and 1 Linux - text mode only)
...snip...
Don't everbody chime in with
vim/emacs/joe/etc. WP != text editor, you have to be able to access the printer
effects easily.
Latex
What would a community organisation want with a free computer network anyway?
I'm trying to puzzle that out myself.
Best use I can think of is schools, where the Pentium Server has
already cached the pages they are expected to "research" and a variety
of Xterms are just feeding off this cache. Although dial up is not a
limitation with schools now as I understand it.
Another "solutions" my local school librarian had was a lookup system
to enable teachers to find out who had what resources (big books,
kits, etc). A terminal in each room going back to a server in the
library.
However, I think the biggest market is "home" users, who want a
machine that can do dialup, email, WWW cruising and homework. (woops,
games, scribble drawing, etc)
As I understood it, the problem with computerbank in Sydney was
storage/workshop space. So, if anyone knows of a long term vacant
warehouse - hint hint!.
I guess I didn't make my thesis clear enough, also in response to Jon's post.
There no point having lots of storage space if there is no outlet for the
machines, at some point you end up with a bunch of people with aching backs,
full warehouses and nowhere for the hardware to go.
Yep, so how do you break the cycle?
You have to start somewhere!
If you think you can easily get hardware, then you advertise for
clients and get the hardware as needed. Otherwise, you do it the other
way around. I just tend to think that clients are easier to find.
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.woa.com.au
or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WOA Computer Services lan/wan, linux/unix, novell
snail: PO Box 1047, Campbelltown, NSW 2560.
"People without trees are like fish without clean water"
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
Yep, this is very limited use. Well it depends on the expectations of the users. If everybody wants to run StarOffice, then there isn't much hope of supporting them on discarded hardware. Latex Pull the other one. I love LaTeX and have used it for 15 years, all the way back to the old Pascal versions but I don't consider it suitable for the average person. Best use I can think of is schools, where the Pentium Server has already cached the pages they are expected to "research" and a variety of Xterms are just feeding off this cache. Although dial up is not a limitation with schools now as I understand it. Unfortunately schools and school admins have their own agendas, another long story. However, I think the biggest market is "home" users, who want a machine that can do dialup, email, WWW cruising and homework. (woops, games, scribble drawing, etc) Problem with home users is that if we give them a machine, they expect some handholding. This could be even more problematic than refurbishing machines. One needs to build up a second tier of support. Organisations are easier because the machines are in one spot and you can probably train somebody on the ground. There no point having lots of storage space if there is no outlet for the machines, at some point you end up with a bunch of people with aching backs, full warehouses and nowhere for the hardware to go. Yep, so how do you break the cycle? You have to start somewhere! But we did try, and you ended with a load of hardware from Basil in your garage. :-) If you think you can easily get hardware, then you advertise for clients and get the hardware as needed. Otherwise, you do it the other way around. I just tend to think that clients are easier to find. Unfortunately the current evidence is that hardware (not very modern hardware though) is easy to get and takers are few. If you believe the converse, please suggest some donees. What happened to the school librarian you were trying to convince? -- This mail sent via NLC WebMail: http://www.nlc.net.au/ -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
Terry Collins wrote: Latex I must have got the wrong impression about this thread - I didn't think it involved torture. ;) Markup is well and good for precise techies, but I don't think Latex is an appropriate tool to drop on someone's desktop (stories of Latex-friendly secretaries aside... umm, not that Latex). Another "solutions" my local school librarian had was a lookup system to enable teachers to find out who had what resources (big books, kits, etc). A terminal in each room going back to a server in the library. However, I think the biggest market is "home" users, who want a machine that can do dialup, email, WWW cruising and homework. (woops, games, scribble drawing, etc) The sorts of things non-profits (and similarly, small businesses) need are simple information processing machines. Most information processing is suited to text/console interfaces - I grew up with a GUI, but I've yet to see a well designed data-entry style application running under... well, any GUI come to think of it (I'd love to be proved wrong by the way - please tell me of any software you know that achieves this). I work with bookshops, and their software is either DOS-based, or Frankensteinian in it's conversion to GUIness. Other posters are correct in saying the hardware is easily found. I have a few boxes in my cupboard, a couple at work, and I can sit and wait until a certain PHB I know gets sick of trying to make money on some old 486es! It *would* be easier to organise than an Installfest - walk in, make the hardware work, install the software, connect the dots. The trouble is the software. What's needed is a reasonably well-featured console word processor, a data-storage application (phonebooks and the like), those sorts of things. We have the email and browser software. If you think you can easily get hardware, then you advertise for clients and get the hardware as needed. Otherwise, you do it the other way around. I just tend to think that clients are easier to find. "An example must be made." If a team of techies can find an appropriate institution, give them a good kit of hardware and software to fill their needs, and be fairly noisy about it, more will come forward. You can't satisfy a bilnd man with a six million dollar painting. Similarly, you can't drop a computer on someone's lap without thinking through a solution. I'm interested to see where these discussions lead. - Jeff -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- http://linux.conf.au/ -- Ye shall be cursed to fall in love so easily, and yet be so cold of heart as never to express it. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
Then I think CB needs to adopt the same stance as TAD - Say NO!. That's what CBNSW or rather the putative CBNSW has done by default. Since nobody is inclined to accept any more offers, we are saying not YES! which is therefore !YES = NO! Or charge to take it away and thus earn the organisation . Don't think of us could justify the loss of earnings to take time to do this. If CB has decided that organisations are the preferred way to go, then that is fine. Nobody has decided anything, there is no CBNSW to decide anything, it just happens to be the current evidence that equipment, albeit old, is trivial to get. But please keep those ideas coming. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
this aint at 61 Hume st is it? dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, 22 August 2000 1:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week All, It's at Crows Nest. A couple of carloads of stuff, including lots of made-up serial, power and other cables, some monitors, a couple of i386 boxes, some telephones, a WY-120, etc etc etc. I'm not yet sure it's all available but I'd like expressions of interest RSN. Ken Yap, where are you? Cheers, Jim Donovan tel. 0428-609208 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Dave Kempe wrote: All, It's at Crows Nest. A couple of carloads of stuff, including lots of made-up serial, power and other cables, some monitors, a couple of i386 boxes, some telephones, a WY-120, etc etc etc. I'm not yet sure it's all available but I'd like expressions of interest RSN. Ken Yap, where are you? I have a similar load of stuff at work - they wanted me to take it home, but I've got enough already. Monitors, 386/486's, at least one working DAT drive, a HPIII printer, etc... I'll check on Thursday (off work with the flu at present) when they want it removed by. Only condition is you take the LOT, and junk what you don't need. If you are interested, please email me privately, so I can get back to you when I kow what's happening. -- Regards, Jon -- "It is irresponsible to connect a Windows machine to the Internet" ... John Wiltshire (SLUG) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
Ever considered getting in touch with Technical Aids for the Disabled (TAD), at the spastic centre. They work hard at providing disabled people (who are generally very poor, but I won't start my social ranting here) with computers for internet access and the like. They might be able to use it, and it might go to a good cause. Cheers Erich -- Erich Schulz Instrumental Technologies PO Box 6028, Lake Munmorah, NSW 2259 Ph: (+61)0500 551 228 , Fax: (+612) 43583113 Mob: 0408 201 228 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, you wrote: Ever considered getting in touch with Technical Aids for the Disabled (TAD), at the spastic centre. They work hard at providing disabled people (who are generally very poor, but I won't start my social ranting here) with computers for internet access and the like. They might be able to use it, and it might go to a good cause. Yes, I have - TAD can't be bothered returning my calls, and last time I spoke to them they wouldn't touch anything less than a pentium. I'm happy to help someone cart them away and even help clean them up if they are going to something like TAD or the spastic centre, but I just don't have the time (or the space at home - I already have a workshop full of old computers from the last cleanout). -- Regards, Jon -- "It is irresponsible to connect a Windows machine to the Internet" ... John Wiltshire (SLUG) -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
Yes, I have - TAD can't be bothered returning my calls, and last time I spoke to them they wouldn't touch anything less than a pentium. The situation is that the country is awash in discarded computers, I've heard a figure of 800k computers being replaced each year. I'm not surprised TAD will do nothing, they're probably short of help, which is the limiting factor. Not to appear ungrateful to people who donate but without an organised and streamlined way of recycling them, volunteers who collect just end up straining their backs, and burning up fossil fuel to move heavy boxes from one collection to another collection. I was hoping that the guy at the last Computerbank meeting who expressed an interest in reviving CBNSW would make an announcement, but so far nothing has happened. One idea floated is to find community organisations that want a network of computers installed (including diskless terminals) and to call for a Installfest on the premises. Donors bring their old hardware on the understanding that anything not used by the end of the day they would have to take home or deposit in the skip themselves. Some prescreening of hardware via email would help donors identify ahead of time what can and cannot be used. This at least cuts out a couple of transport steps. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
The situation is that the country is awash in discarded computers, I've heard a figure of 800k computers being replaced each year. I'm not surprised TAD will do nothing, they're probably short of help, which is the limiting factor. Not to appear ungrateful to people who donate but without an organised and streamlined way of recycling them, volunteers who collect just end up straining their backs, and burning up fossil fuel to move heavy boxes from one collection to another collection. Just to back Ken up here. Several of us met at the Crystal Palace Hotel to see what we could do for Computerbank. The figure that predator quoted (600,000 rather than 800k) was probably from a study done by Dames and Moore consulting engineers, using some ABS statistics in their report. This was done on behalf of a group that involved John Weaver (who, I hope will forgive me for including him in the the CC). I'm not sure of the exact details, but they were also concerned with the waste rates. Computerbank is different from TAD in several ways. The first is that CB is simply concerned with computers going to 'good causes', not just disabled folk. In addition CB, at present, won't / can't load Windows onto any machine. TAD, (I'm told) has the right to load Win 3.11 for free onto a donated machine. In addition, there is another organisation called Ernie's recycling in Glebe. Ernie has lately been knocked for six with a (terminal?) illness. Computerbank is reasonably successful in Victoria. On the recipient side, things are patchy. Schools have quite specific requirements. Another potential recipient simply wouldn't take machines that didn't have Windows. While I don't want to denigrate, or place a lesser value on the efforts of volunteers, I'm not completely sure that a volunteer group is the answer (to reducing the waste of 600,000 machines) (It may well be a very good answer to getting computers to needy people). Let me lay out the tasks involved, which have to be done repeatedly: * pick up machines, generally during working hours on weekdays involving a vehicle that has capacity * Undertake to delete software and data from those machines. Probably be under some bond to not allow confidential data to leak. * Store machines in premises (free premises if volunteer / needy) * refurbish machines. * Dump waste that is completely useless. Possibly up to 50%. (Waste dumping is expensive) * Find recipients. This may mean advertising, working the phones, keeping up the web pages. * Deliver and set up machines for recipients. For most recipients this may also mean some training, support. Part of the solution is that businesses will have to take responsibility for their computer waste (I.e. they should pay someone to take machines away, or pay a big premium to take to the tip) Interestingly, I'm told that Ernie doesn't give his machines away. He expects a payment, as he found that addicts would take free machines and sell them for drugs. So I see two problems : getting old machines to deserving, needy people, and reducing the (criminal!) waste of dumping old, useful computers. I think the first is a subset solution of the second. I invite your comments. It may seem that all this is off-topic for a Linux discussion list, but indeed it is not. I believe that Linux will have an enormous part to play in breathing life into old machines. From routers, terminals (X and text) to servers this is way to get best use. http://www.computerbank.org.au Jamie -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
Jamie Honan wrote:
Just to back Ken up here. Several of us met at the Crystal Palace Hotel
to see what we could do for Computerbank.
Jamie - any chance of a summary, or is Basil posting it on
Computerbank?
The figure that predator quoted (600,000 rather than 800k) was probably
from a study done by Dames and Moore consulting engineers, using some ABS
statistics in their report.
So there are stacks of them around in theory. The problem is that
286's, 386's and 486's are very limited use.
Computerbank is different from TAD in several ways. The first is
that CB is simply concerned with computers going to 'good causes',
not just disabled folk. In addition CB, at present, won't / can't load
Windows onto any machine.
Which is a reason for SLUG to be kept informed.
While I don't want to denigrate, or place a lesser value on the
efforts of volunteers, I'm not completely sure that a volunteer group
is the answer (to reducing the waste of 600,000 machines)
Just to do anything, we all have limitations. My limitation is storage
space and I'm better endowed that others (sorry - couldn't resist that
one {:-).
As I understood it, the problem with computerbank in Sydney was
storage/workshop space. So, if anyone knows of a long term vacant
warehouse - hint hint!.
Starting a formal organisation with paid staff is a major project.
* Dump waste that is completely useless. Possibly up to 50%. (Waste
dumping is expensive)
This is a lot easier to do, if it is in bulk. Recyclers don't make
much/anything if they have to do a lot of handling.
Part of the solution is that businesses will have to take responsibility
for their computer waste (I.e. they should pay someone to take machines
away, or pay a big premium to take to the tip)
It seems some accept that they have to pay for waste disposal anyway,
so they might be prepared to "donate" the disposal fee.
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} Ph(02) 4627 2186 Fax(02) 4628 7861
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] www: http://www.woa.com.au
or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
WOA Computer Services lan/wan, linux/unix, novell
snail: PO Box 1047, Campbelltown, NSW 2560.
"People without trees are like fish without clean water"
--
SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/
More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] workshop-full of junk available late this week
On the news yesterday they announced that IBM were going to donate the hundreds of computers used in the Olympics to Computerbank when it was all over. I wonder if this is true, and whether IBM is planning to actually assist cb with logistics? The other thing that's happening on the recycling side is a lot of larger computer manufacturers and retailers are offering trade-ins. Harvey Norman probably still does. Goodness knows what happens to the old machines! I know that Sun offers trade-ins and re-sell second hand / reconditioned stuff (see their web pages via http://www.sun.com/ under spare parts and refurbished goods). There is a steady market for this gear. I seem to have misplaced SRK's URL. And also there is MRI in Victoria who are converting IBM mainframes etc into I-Beams for the construction industry :) They are planning something for Sydney where you pay to have something recycled. On the matter of 286's etc - they are not useful for X apps but they usually form the heart of switchgear and routers. Possibly there is a kernel out there that will work on such equipment; I made an 8 channel stat mux using a Z-80 years ago, and in a previous "life" we made 2 Mb/s modems which used 186s or 8049s. It's more a matter of getting the time to write the code than worrying as to whether the hardware will run. 'Nuff raving from me. - Jill. ___ Jill Rowling Snr Design Engineer Unix System Administrator Electronic Engineering Department, Aristocrat Technologies Australia 3rd Floor, 77 Dunning Ave Rosebery NSW 2018 Phone: (02) 9697-4484 Fax:(02) 9663-1412 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://slug.org.au/lists/listinfo/slug
