RE: boat storage
Tom, I have some papers written on this. Contact me off line because it's large .pdf's. Russell Rewis Brown Automatic Sprinklers, Inc. 107C Hemlock Street Valdosta, Georgia 31601 229-244-8130 russ...@brownautomatic.com -Original Message- Subject: boat storage Ii have a in rack boat storage facility, 4 stories, I am thinking that ESFR 16.8 for 12 spkrs however I am not sure what to use as a density, flr to flr is 20' - 4 racks per floor, just go for the rated flow/psi per head ? Tom Poisal, CET ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: boat storage
Ah and there's the rub, many of the specifying EOR's won't know what an NFPA compliant system would be. When it comes to Fire Protection, the engineering trade is relying more and more on the contractor to figure out everything. I wouldn't run away from the job. I agree with what has been said, I would write the EOR a letter explaining that there is no specific NFPA compliant system and HE needs to determine and define the criteria to which you will layout the system. Rubber stampers who use that Design and Install per NFPA 13 note on every job really irk me. Is there an insurance underwriter or local fire official perhaps who would weigh-in on the subject? Right now NFPA 303 and the NFPA research paper are about the only things that you have to reference from a potential design standpoint. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Todd Williams Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: boat storage What Ron said. The EOR said install an NFPA compliant system and there is no NFPA compliant system. Kick it back and let him figure it out. Make sure you copy everyone except you mother-in-law. At 08:42 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote: okay Todd so today, what do I do? On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote: The big problem is that we do not know what will work. If you design a system based on what you think is best without actually knowing what will work, you are opening yourself up to a huge liability problem if there ever is a fire. Run is not running away from the problem, it's running away from the liability. It's an occupancy that needs analysis, much like records storage did a few years ago (I guess pretty much resolved as of 2010 edition) At 07:02 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote: Brian, encouraging others to run as well is hardly a professional response, your synopsis is relevant for an insurer, but I am asked to design a fire sprinkler protection system to reasonably protect a hazard, WHAT I should run? Give the owner a break and design a system as best as I can within the applicable codes, your self designed barrier of 3' width with K-17 or ELO heads is crazy where is the documentation for this, amounts for headaches for the owner whenever they move boats. I guess it's a this is what we have deal, deal with it...refusing to address a problem really irks meby the way you have so many disclaimers why would you care? See FL Chapter 61G15-27, etc On 5/3/10, den1 d...@global-fire.com wrote: Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been no large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for a code compliant system without some type of performance based element. Here are the elements you have to deal with: 1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness 2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below 3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a fire 4. Possible drainage issues 5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire department access 6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading by water filled boats (and don't think for a minute that the 3/4 plug in the hull is going to gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole. etc, etc. The best arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group I density with an increased design area of 3000 + sq. ft. then have a solid barrier installed below the keel of each boat supported by the rack. This barrier would be at least 3 feet wide and would have one line of ELO or K-17 sprinklers under the barrier. This puts a line of heads above every boat below the top row. The only bad thing is the problem identified in my item 6 above. As the racks are heated and the strength decreases we are increasing the rack loading. This is a bad occupancy. My firm refuses to do design for them and will continue to do so until there is adequate testing. I would encourage other to run as well. As far as I'm concerned no permits should be given for this occupancy until the marine storage industry funds adequate full scale testing and standards are developed to address all the issues. Brian R. Foster, F.P.E.,
Re: boat storage
I stand by my response to run. This isn't horseshoes and hand grenades. You don't get a gold star for almost controlling the fire based on a questionable design. The response below objecting to the sprinklers below the keels is part of the problem. You can't realistically design a sprinkler system that you would expect to work if you plan to move the rack shelves (without having the sprinkler contractor adjust the piping). The owner is going to have to decide how many big slips and how many small slips he needs and reconfigure later if needs change. The reason I will not design protection for one of these boat racks is that I don't think there is an adequate body of knowledge due to the lack of testing to specify a credible level of protection. Everyone on this forum seems to acknowledge this much yet they may march right into trying to do something to appease and owner. I see designers using sidewall sprinklers, sprinklers under the horizontal 3 inch wide framing between boats and a whole lot of other less than professional designs that I never expect to work. Sometimes it is far better to walk away from a job than to do something half ass and with a blind eye to the deficiencies. Just remember if you design one of these buildings and it burns down, you WILL get sued and the owner's lawyers WILL hire an FPE to testify against your design. Without something to back you up you have no protection. Design them if you want the money, now but be prepared to give it back later. The alternative is to wait until the NFPA Research Foundation gets the money to sponsor the full scale testing that has been proposed. Good Luck Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI, President Registered in: FL, GA, IN, MS, NC, TX, VA and WI GLOBAL FIRE ENGINEERING, INC. 8450 Linger Lodge Rd. Bradenton, FL 34202 P: 941-758-2551 F: 941-739-6383 C: 941-928-8138 _ Additional Office: Murphy, NC - (828)837-2551 tom poisal wrote: okay Todd so today, what do I do? On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Todd Williamst...@fpdc.com wrote: The big problem is that we do not know what will work. If you design a system based on what you think is best without actually knowing what will work, you are opening yourself up to a huge liability problem if there ever is a fire. Run is not running away from the problem, it's running away from the liability. It's an occupancy that needs analysis, much like records storage did a few years ago (I guess pretty much resolved as of 2010 edition) At 07:02 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote: Brian, encouraging others to run as well is hardly a professional response, your synopsis is relevant for an insurer, but I am asked to design a fire sprinkler protection system to reasonably protect a hazard, WHAT I should run? Give the owner a break and design a system as best as I can within the applicable codes, your self designed barrier of 3' width with K-17 or ELO heads is crazy where is the documentation for this, amounts for headaches for the owner whenever they move boats. I guess it's a this is what we have deal, deal with it...refusing to address a problem really irks meby the way you have so many disclaimers why would you care? See FL Chapter 61G15-27, etc On 5/3/10, den1d...@global-fire.com wrote: Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been no large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for a code compliant system without some type of performance based element. Here are the elements you have to deal with: 1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness 2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below 3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a fire 4. Possible drainage issues 5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire department access 6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading by water filled boats (and don't think for a minute that the 3/4 plug in the hull is going to gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole. etc, etc. The best arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group I density with an increased design area of 3000 + sq. ft. then have a solid barrier installed below the keel of each boat supported by the rack. This barrier would be at least 3 feet wide and would have one line of ELO or K-17 sprinklers under the barrier. This puts a line of heads above every boat below the top row. The only bad thing is the problem identified in my item 6 above. As the racks are heated and the strength decreases we are
RE: Fire Pump
Weird. But if the drop in pressure each night is consistent, and you have verified that there are no leaks and there are not people opening valves and using water from the standpipe then I'd be inclined to use the night time pressure as my normal system pressure and re-adjust the pump start set point below THAT value. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:21 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire Pump Matt, There is some temperature difference of about 6-8 degree celsius only. Pump is in service from only 2-3 weeks. pressure switch? Worth a check.. Craig Supply is from water tanks. There is a check valve provided in the pump discharge. We have water storage in 3 tanks with a common supply to pump. As for yesterday pressure drop was from 20 bar to 15 bar .. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:37 PM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: What is the change in temperature from day to night? Is the piping exposed to outdoor temperatures? Sunlight? Is it possible that there are small leaks in the standpipe that could drop the pressure? How long have you had the pump in service? If this just started happening, maybe there is a problem with the pressure switch? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 2:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire Pump craig Surely that can be done.(adjust the differential) But am worried what is goin wrong? On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:23 PM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote: Tom, look at your conversion factor again. Bar X 14.5 = psi. Pump rating is 20 bar (290 psi), set point to start is 16 bar (232 psi). You're saying there is a system pressure differential of 4 bar (58 psi) between normal daytime pressure and night time pressures? Apparently you don't have a jockey pump on the system to maintain the pressure? Any reason not to adjust the differential a bit wider, say drop the start point to 14 bar maybe? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire Pump On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 3:08 PM, sam b sam...@gmail.com wrote: but do you expect this to go down so much ,more than 2 bars even,.? am actually waiting for the status tonight...:) Yeah your talking 2 bars = only .1378 psi, I have seen systems lose 5-6 psi overnight and gain it when the sun rises On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:02 PM, tom poisal tspoi...@gmail.com wrote: sam, it is the temp rise/loss; when it gets to night time the water cools and lowers the temp which lowers the psi/bar same with an overnight hydro test..not much you can do about it that i know. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 2:57 PM, sam b sam...@gmail.com wrote: Hii everyone My previos mail in this forum was regarding a temporary fire pump(only dieselPump) only. we have installed this fire pump for temporary fire fighting in the site. The pump is 500 USGpm @ 20 Bar.(NOn Listed).The risers we have installed up to 7 floors now. The pressure switch setting is kept such that when presuure drops below 16 Bar the pump automatically starts. For the last 2 days we are seeing that the pump starts automatically at night time.In the daytime there is no considerable pressure loss also. our initial assesment was that it may due to air trapped inside ,as a result we installed air release valve in both risers .Also the NRV in the pumpdiischarge was replaced to ensure there is no leakage. Any guesses on whtmay b the reason? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To
Re: boat storage
Well said Mr. Foster, I worked Extensively on one of these with another member of our forum. It is a daunting task. There is NO compliant 13 system. NONE!. If it irks you Tom to run, then design it and good luck. As you can tell, the consensus of this forum, (many of whom are way smarter than me) say stay away. You asked the opinion, do not shoot the messengers. R/ Matt - Original Message - From: den1 d...@global-fire.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 7:45 AM Subject: Re: boat storage I stand by my response to run. This isn't horseshoes and hand grenades. You don't get a gold star for almost controlling the fire based on a questionable design. The response below objecting to the sprinklers below the keels is part of the problem. You can't realistically design a sprinkler system that you would expect to work if you plan to move the rack shelves (without having the sprinkler contractor adjust the piping). The owner is going to have to decide how many big slips and how many small slips he needs and reconfigure later if needs change. The reason I will not design protection for one of these boat racks is that I don't think there is an adequate body of knowledge due to the lack of testing to specify a credible level of protection. Everyone on this forum seems to acknowledge this much yet they may march right into trying to do something to appease and owner. I see designers using sidewall sprinklers, sprinklers under the horizontal 3 inch wide framing between boats and a whole lot of other less than professional designs that I never expect to work. Sometimes it is far better to walk away from a job than to do something half ass and with a blind eye to the deficiencies. Just remember if you design one of these buildings and it burns down, you WILL get sued and the owner's lawyers WILL hire an FPE to testify against your design. Without something to back you up you have no protection. Design them if you want the money, now but be prepared to give it back later. The alternative is to wait until the NFPA Research Foundation gets the money to sponsor the full scale testing that has been proposed. Good Luck Brian R. Foster, F.P.E., CFSI, President Registered in: FL, GA, IN, MS, NC, TX, VA and WI GLOBAL FIRE ENGINEERING, INC. 8450 Linger Lodge Rd. Bradenton, FL 34202 P: 941-758-2551 F: 941-739-6383 C: 941-928-8138 _ Additional Office: Murphy, NC - (828)837-2551 tom poisal wrote: okay Todd so today, what do I do? On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:45 PM, Todd Williamst...@fpdc.com wrote: The big problem is that we do not know what will work. If you design a system based on what you think is best without actually knowing what will work, you are opening yourself up to a huge liability problem if there ever is a fire. Run is not running away from the problem, it's running away from the liability. It's an occupancy that needs analysis, much like records storage did a few years ago (I guess pretty much resolved as of 2010 edition) At 07:02 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote: Brian, encouraging others to run as well is hardly a professional response, your synopsis is relevant for an insurer, but I am asked to design a fire sprinkler protection system to reasonably protect a hazard, WHAT I should run? Give the owner a break and design a system as best as I can within the applicable codes, your self designed barrier of 3' width with K-17 or ELO heads is crazy where is the documentation for this, amounts for headaches for the owner whenever they move boats. I guess it's a this is what we have deal, deal with it...refusing to address a problem really irks meby the way you have so many disclaimers why would you care? See FL Chapter 61G15-27, etc On 5/3/10, den1d...@global-fire.com wrote: Here is my take on in-door boat storage marinas. Many of these structures reach 50 feet in height and have what amounts to multi-row rack storage of plastics containing flammable liquids. There has been no large scale fire testing (yet) and there is no way to apply NFPA 13 for a code compliant system without some type of performance based element. Here are the elements you have to deal with: 1. High elevations that decrease sprinkler effectiveness 2. Flammable liquids control when one boat drops on to those below 3. Possible rack supported buildings and structural failure during a fire 4. Possible drainage issues 5. Most likely exposure issues around these buildings that limit fire department access 6. Structural rack deformation due to overloading by water filled boats (and don't think for a minute that the 3/4 plug in the hull is going to gravity drain all the water as fast as it comes in - especially when leaves, sandwich wrappers or other debris partially obstruct the hole. etc, etc. The best arrangement I have seen is to provide a Extra Hazard Group I density with an increased
Re: Fire Pump
Have the water company put pressure recorders on a nearby hydrant and see what happens. Also find out if there are tanks being filled at night. Ran into this situation at a job here in CT. There were 25 psi pressure swings At 02:57 PM 5/3/2010, you wrote: Hii everyone My previos mail in this forum was regarding a temporary fire pump(only dieselPump) only. we have installed this fire pump for temporary fire fighting in the site. The pump is 500 USGpm @ 20 Bar.(NOn Listed).The risers we have installed up to 7 floors now. The pressure switch setting is kept such that when presuure drops below 16 Bar the pump automatically starts. For the last 2 days we are seeing that the pump starts automatically at night time.In the daytime there is no considerable pressure loss also. our initial assesment was that it may due to air trapped inside ,as a result we installed air release valve in both risers .Also the NRV in the pumpdiischarge was replaced to ensure there is no leakage. Any guesses on whtmay b the reason? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) Todd G. Williams, PE Fire Protection Design/Consulting Stonington, CT 860.535.2080 www.fpdc.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: boat storage
I've tried to stay out of this since we seem to re-hash this every 6 months or so. For a RE-CAP of all our past discussion, let's start with: It's outside of the scope of NFPA 13 Now your EOR didn't say comply with NFPA 13, he called for a NFPA compliant system. So have him clarify what type of NFPA compliant system. 10,11,12,12A,14,15, 16,17 or 17A or possibly OTHER? As a Layout Tech. and NOT a FPE your required to follow the guidance of the engineer. But as the EOR, he's required to provide that guidance. So your job is to make him do his job. (Let's not go into CET/SET vs. PE) Since no really good study, where they burn down one of these structures has been done yet, what we don't know still exceeds what we do know. Get the ERO, AHJ, Owner and Insurance underwriter to tell you what they can all agree on as appropriate protection in writing, and then you can do what they explicitly direct you to do for a layout. Otherwise just head to the bar, and stay there until you forget all about this project. No need to run, but you should call a taxi, as we cannot endorse unsafe behavior. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 6:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: boat storage okay Todd so today, what do I do? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Fire Pump
A 5 bar drop overnight is about 72.5 PSI drop, now let's say you have No Visible leakage I would first check the check valve for Back Leakage If it's not coming out of the pipe, and the 12'F to 16'F temp change isn't enough to cause the expansion contraction issue, I would think you have a closed system leak, generally from the Hi-pressure side to the low pressure side. That seems to be thru your check valve. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 10:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire Pump Matt, There is some temperature difference of about 6-8 degree celsius only. Pump is in service from only 2-3 weeks. pressure switch? Worth a check.. Craig Supply is from water tanks. There is a check valve provided in the pump discharge. We have water storage in 3 tanks with a common supply to pump. As for yesterday pressure drop was from 20 bar to 15 bar .. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:37 PM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: What is the change in temperature from day to night? Is the piping exposed to outdoor temperatures? Sunlight? Is it possible that there are small leaks in the standpipe that could drop the pressure? How long have you had the pump in service? If this just started happening, maybe there is a problem with the pressure switch? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 2:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire Pump craig Surely that can be done.(adjust the differential) But am worried what is goin wrong? On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:23 PM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote: Tom, look at your conversion factor again. Bar X 14.5 = psi. Pump rating is 20 bar (290 psi), set point to start is 16 bar (232 psi). You're saying there is a system pressure differential of 4 bar (58 psi) between normal daytime pressure and night time pressures? Apparently you don't have a jockey pump on the system to maintain the pressure? Any reason not to adjust the differential a bit wider, say drop the start point to 14 bar maybe? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire Pump On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 3:08 PM, sam b sam...@gmail.com wrote: but do you expect this to go down so much ,more than 2 bars even,.? am actually waiting for the status tonight...:) Yeah your talking 2 bars = only .1378 psi, I have seen systems lose 5-6 psi overnight and gain it when the sun rises On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:02 PM, tom poisal tspoi...@gmail.com wrote: sam, it is the temp rise/loss; when it gets to night time the water cools and lowers the temp which lowers the psi/bar same with an overnight hydro test..not much you can do about it that i know. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 2:57 PM, sam b sam...@gmail.com wrote: Hii everyone My previos mail in this forum was regarding a temporary fire pump(only dieselPump) only. we have installed this fire pump for temporary fire fighting in the site. The pump is 500 USGpm @ 20 Bar.(NOn Listed).The risers we have installed up to 7 floors now. The pressure switch setting is kept such that when presuure drops below 16 Bar the pump automatically starts. For the last 2 days we are seeing that the pump starts automatically at night time.In the daytime there is no considerable pressure loss also. our initial assesment was that it may due to air trapped inside ,as a result we installed air release valve in both risers .Also the NRV in the pumpdiischarge was replaced to ensure there is no leakage. Any guesses on whtmay b the reason? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an
boat storage
NFPA 13 states (regarding Equivalency) in the first chapter, there is nothing in this standard intended to prevent the use of systems, methods or devices of equivalent or superior quality, ... effectiveness... I am tired of being fired and chastised by architects and GC's alike for over reviewing and over demanding items in plan check reviews --plan reviews that can not even provide a site water supply description. There is little, if no support, from the govt AHJ against the architect or GC push back I get, when what is asked for in a plan submittal is simply minimum code prescription. You want to hire an FPE to finish this design? Fine! Bring it. I will take my chances against the fire, than against the greedy, corner-cutting, politically savvy architects and GC's (knowing that not all architects and GC's in this economy act in this way) that cut my feet out from under me three-quarters of the way through a contract. I will gladly design and argue strategies and physics in the open light of day against a boat storage fire, than take on an architect or GC in another closed door, dark room, uninvited meeting room. As Warren Buffet said, 'when most of the sheeple are running away, that is when I become really interested.' While that statement was intended to apply more to money, than to fire safety...the analogy is not entirely lost on me. The American design culture is losing its mojo. If a developer can't find an engineer because the engineer designs from fear rather than physics...what kind of culture do we expect to live in? Show me the money. I will design a boat-storage-rack sprinkler protection system--based on fire, not fear. scot deal excelsior fire engineering ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Fire Pump
Wouldn't 5 bars, connected to your previous post, be more aptly described as a pub crawl? In which case, 180 lb men have been known to become lost overnight. I'm metric-imapired, I'm not sure how many bars that translates to and I ended a sentence with a dangling participle to boot. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:51 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Fire Pump A 5 bar drop overnight is about 72.5 PSI drop, now let's say you have No Visible leakage I would first check the check valve for Back Leakage If it's not coming out of the pipe, and the 12'F to 16'F temp change isn't enough to cause the expansion contraction issue, I would think you have a closed system leak, generally from the Hi-pressure side to the low pressure side. That seems to be thru your check valve. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 10:21 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire Pump Matt, There is some temperature difference of about 6-8 degree celsius only. Pump is in service from only 2-3 weeks. pressure switch? Worth a check.. Craig Supply is from water tanks. There is a check valve provided in the pump discharge. We have water storage in 3 tanks with a common supply to pump. As for yesterday pressure drop was from 20 bar to 15 bar .. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:37 PM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: What is the change in temperature from day to night? Is the piping exposed to outdoor temperatures? Sunlight? Is it possible that there are small leaks in the standpipe that could drop the pressure? How long have you had the pump in service? If this just started happening, maybe there is a problem with the pressure switch? Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of sam b Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 2:30 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire Pump craig Surely that can be done.(adjust the differential) But am worried what is goin wrong? On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:23 PM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote: Tom, look at your conversion factor again. Bar X 14.5 = psi. Pump rating is 20 bar (290 psi), set point to start is 16 bar (232 psi). You're saying there is a system pressure differential of 4 bar (58 psi) between normal daytime pressure and night time pressures? Apparently you don't have a jockey pump on the system to maintain the pressure? Any reason not to adjust the differential a bit wider, say drop the start point to 14 bar maybe? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 3:18 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Fire Pump On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 3:08 PM, sam b sam...@gmail.com wrote: but do you expect this to go down so much ,more than 2 bars even,.? am actually waiting for the status tonight...:) Yeah your talking 2 bars = only .1378 psi, I have seen systems lose 5-6 psi overnight and gain it when the sun rises On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:02 PM, tom poisal tspoi...@gmail.com wrote: sam, it is the temp rise/loss; when it gets to night time the water cools and lowers the temp which lowers the psi/bar same with an overnight hydro test..not much you can do about it that i know. On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 2:57 PM, sam b sam...@gmail.com wrote: Hii everyone My previos mail in this forum was regarding a temporary fire pump(only dieselPump) only. we have installed this fire pump for temporary fire fighting in the site. The pump is 500 USGpm @ 20 Bar.(NOn Listed).The risers we have installed up to 7 floors now. The pressure switch setting is kept such that when presuure drops below 16 Bar the pump automatically starts. For the last 2 days we are seeing that the pump starts automatically at night time.In the daytime there is no considerable pressure loss also. our initial assesment was that it may
Re: boat storage
Tom, I have to agree with my friend up in Steamboat Springs. The information you've provided on the forum appears to be almost a textbook case of a disaster waiting to happen - for you. Here are some conditions you've explained which would make he have no hesitation at all in turning down this project: 1 - the engineer of record has given you a boilerplate statement, follow NFPA. There is no specific NFPA guidance so the engineer has both not done their job in determining that information, and in not developing a protection design that they will stand behind with THEIR errors and omissions insurance when the codes and standards don't cover the configuration and commodity. The last time I looked at my own certification from NICET, it didn't entitle me to make that sort of decision, however the laws may be different where you are. 2 - you're discussing utilizing ESFR sprinklers, which have very specific, narrow, and rigid listings for design and installation. Nothing I've seen in any listing data from three manufacturers, Tyco, Viking, and Reliable, seems to even remotely suggest that they manufacture ESFR's which are listed for rack storage of boats as you describe. If you were to design such a system with ESFR's you are asking for them to be installed outside of the listing, meaning the manufacturer won't stand behind it when it gets to court. Now, you've not only accepted the responsibility of the engineer of record, but the liability of the manufacturer as well. That's two pretty huge lead weights to carry on your back. 3 - without testing or language from a code or standard to support your approach to this storage configuration you're making a guess as to what will work to control a fire in a very challenging environment without anything to support your conclusions. If you don't have fire test or modeling done to test your theories of whether or not your approach has any chance of controlling such a fire, you're in effect acting as an engineer without being licensed or registered to do so. I don't know about where you live, but here in California that's a huge violation of existing law. Oh, one other minor note, and I don't mention this to split hairs, but in one of your earlier posts you mentioned density when you were talking about ESFR sprinklers. As I'm sure you know, density has nothing to do with ESFR technology. Here's hoping you decide to pass on this project unless you get specific guidance from the EOR. In summary, if this molten spud were dumped in my lap, I'd dump it right back, and drive straight to the bar with Thom McMahon. And if you join us, I'll buy the first round. -- PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET 760.745.6181 voice 760.745.0537 fax parsleyconsult...@cox.net mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.net e-mail www.ParsleyConsulting.com http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com website -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 6:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: boat storage okay Todd so today, what do I do? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Fire Pump
Is the pressure switch mercury type, and is there some machinery nearby that kicks on at night And causes a lot of vibration? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: boat storage
Those thinking Thom and Ken having a drink together would be interesting to watch, not to mention the ensuing conversation, might be interested in knowing that it is likely to occur in the Providence, RI area in early October. Coincidently, that's the AFSA Convention. And if you think they might talk about fellow forumites and enjoy looking back at Chris's test oven and other interesting events over the past year, you're absolutely correct. Come defend your honor from those that would make fun of you in your absence- come to the AFSA Convention and we'll make fun of each other in person and have a good time- while earning CEU credits and making new friends, seeing new products, and avoiding letting Thom drive to the go-kart track(he did, in his defense, flick the wheel at the last second and avoid killing his PE wife, the Sornsin brothers, our resident 14 expert who got the fastest lap award, a MI homebuilder and yours truly). It's certainly an annual event for a lot of us. Come see why! glc -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of ParsleyConsulting Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: boat storage Tom, I have to agree with my friend up in Steamboat Springs. The information you've provided on the forum appears to be almost a textbook case of a disaster waiting to happen - for you. Here are some conditions you've explained which would make he have no hesitation at all in turning down this project: 1 - the engineer of record has given you a boilerplate statement, follow NFPA. There is no specific NFPA guidance so the engineer has both not done their job in determining that information, and in not developing a protection design that they will stand behind with THEIR errors and omissions insurance when the codes and standards don't cover the configuration and commodity. The last time I looked at my own certification from NICET, it didn't entitle me to make that sort of decision, however the laws may be different where you are. 2 - you're discussing utilizing ESFR sprinklers, which have very specific, narrow, and rigid listings for design and installation. Nothing I've seen in any listing data from three manufacturers, Tyco, Viking, and Reliable, seems to even remotely suggest that they manufacture ESFR's which are listed for rack storage of boats as you describe. If you were to design such a system with ESFR's you are asking for them to be installed outside of the listing, meaning the manufacturer won't stand behind it when it gets to court. Now, you've not only accepted the responsibility of the engineer of record, but the liability of the manufacturer as well. That's two pretty huge lead weights to carry on your back. 3 - without testing or language from a code or standard to support your approach to this storage configuration you're making a guess as to what will work to control a fire in a very challenging environment without anything to support your conclusions. If you don't have fire test or modeling done to test your theories of whether or not your approach has any chance of controlling such a fire, you're in effect acting as an engineer without being licensed or registered to do so. I don't know about where you live, but here in California that's a huge violation of existing law. Oh, one other minor note, and I don't mention this to split hairs, but in one of your earlier posts you mentioned density when you were talking about ESFR sprinklers. As I'm sure you know, density has nothing to do with ESFR technology. Here's hoping you decide to pass on this project unless you get specific guidance from the EOR. In summary, if this molten spud were dumped in my lap, I'd dump it right back, and drive straight to the bar with Thom McMahon. And if you join us, I'll buy the first round. -- PARSLEY CONSULTING Ken Wagoner, SET 760.745.6181 voice 760.745.0537 fax parsleyconsult...@cox.net mailto:parsleyconsult...@cox.net e-mail www.ParsleyConsulting.com http://www.ParsleyConsulting.com website -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of tom poisal Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 6:43 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: boat storage okay Todd so today, what do I do? ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
boat storage
do we think fires in group A plastics, bin-box storage-on-racks, are going to ignore whether a sprinkler is putting out 0.495 gpm/ft2 versus 0.97 gpm/ft2? I am sure the statement that density has nothing to do with ESFR technology was meant in some connotation that is lost on me, similar to how I missed the denotation in the statement from 20 to 15 bar on the fire pump thread. I am not picking on the person here. Least I am TRYING not to. Just seemed like a statement that needed clarification... if density has nothing to do with ESFR technology, then how come their orifice is so big? ;-) ESFR's may be tabled in the Standard based on discharge pressure, but truth is, at the relatively high pressures that ESFR's are discharging at (high pressures relative to SS), it is not the pressure that is determining the tenor of the conversation with the fire, (all ESFR's are yelling at the fire), it is the density. ESFR technology is based on too things: early, and lots. the lots gots to do with density. i think the statement that density has nothing to do with ESFR technology is defying some law or laws of physics and some conservation equations. fires recognize sprinkler water density. and it very much is a deciding factor as to whether we send Mr. Fire home before the red truck rolls up. scot deal excelsior fire engineering ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: boat storage
It would be less risky to just go ahead and post all of your credit cards, with verifier #'s plus your driver's Lic. and Social #'s here on the forum. Your potential loss would be far less, and at least you'd be helping someone. If Scott is offering to help design this thing, take him up on it. I'd love to know what you all would end up doing. Now there would be some fodder for the forum. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: boat storage
While I may not have been fastest on the track, due as we have discussed, to the lack of weight based handicapping. You'll never forget the ride to the track! Anyone for RI boat racing? George is right, you'll never know what you've missed, if you don't attend. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: boat storage
My understanding of boat rack fires (not a huge volume of knowledge) is that they can be successfully controlled/suppressed by systems that are designed to handle an equivalent storage of group a plastics...but that the racks generally collapse because the boats fill with water. Even when boats are wrapped or covered, the covers burn off quickly enough, and it only takes one boat-load(ha ha) of water to bring a hot rack down. (bob kaputo and james lake hit on this topic at the conference last year) I liked the idea of a vortex system. I saw a pretty cool presentation about those this week. They hardly use any water and don't have trouble with obstructions. A high-expansion foam system would probably do the trick too... if you don't mind a huge-normous up front cost of installation. And yes, in my professional opinion, huge-normous is a legitimate description of the cost. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:54 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: boat storage It would be less risky to just go ahead and post all of your credit cards, with verifier #'s plus your driver's Lic. and Social #'s here on the forum. Your potential loss would be far less, and at least you'd be helping someone. If Scott is offering to help design this thing, take him up on it. I'd love to know what you all would end up doing. Now there would be some fodder for the forum. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: boat storage
Scot, I think the statement that density has nothing to do with EFSR was in the same context that it has nothing to do with residential heads. Densities are built into the listings rather than picked from a A/D chart. On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 10:58 AM, Thom McMahon tmcma...@firetechinc.com wrote: While I may not have been fastest on the track, due as we have discussed, to the lack of weight based handicapping. You'll never forget the ride to the track! Anyone for RI boat racing? George is right, you'll never know what you've missed, if you don't attend. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: AFT WA 4184/AFL-CIO, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Fire Pump
ARrrrgg! It's a pirate thing. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: boat storage
I liked how matter-of-fact Dave Sornsin was noting the near-miss. Um, guys, did anyone else notice what just about happened? Guess if u jump outa airplanes every chance you get, riding with Thom isn't as exciting. And I know of two Forumites that have driven Thoms (noreen's?) Z5. You driving to RI? -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: boat storage While I may not have been fastest on the track, due as we have discussed, to the lack of weight based handicapping. You'll never forget the ride to the track! Anyone for RI boat racing? George is right, you'll never know what you've missed, if you don't attend. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: boat storage
I thought the point the writer was trying to make was that ESFR systems are not calculated or designed based on the area/density method. Maybe for boat storage you should use those dry sprinkler systems that don't use any water at all, hmmm, how do you calculate those again? grin Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of å... Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 1:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: boat storage do we think fires in group A plastics, bin-box storage-on-racks, are going to ignore whether a sprinkler is putting out 0.495 gpm/ft2 versus 0.97 gpm/ft2? I am sure the statement that density has nothing to do with ESFR technology was meant in some connotation that is lost on me, similar to how I missed the denotation in the statement from 20 to 15 bar on the fire pump thread. I am not picking on the person here. Least I am TRYING not to. Just seemed like a statement that needed clarification... if density has nothing to do with ESFR technology, then how come their orifice is so big? ;-) ESFR's may be tabled in the Standard based on discharge pressure, but truth is, at the relatively high pressures that ESFR's are discharging at (high pressures relative to SS), it is not the pressure that is determining the tenor of the conversation with the fire, (all ESFR's are yelling at the fire), it is the density. ESFR technology is based on too things: early, and lots. the lots gots to do with density. i think the statement that density has nothing to do with ESFR technology is defying some law or laws of physics and some conservation equations. fires recognize sprinkler water density. and it very much is a deciding factor as to whether we send Mr. Fire home before the red truck rolls up. scot deal excelsior fire engineering ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: boat storage
And a CAF system might work but when talking about CAF, Vortex or Hi-X the operative term is might. Is their an engineer willing to bet on it and is there a NICET tech stupid enough to do engineering? Probably yes to both but not me. On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: My understanding of boat rack fires (not a huge volume of knowledge) is that they can be successfully controlled/suppressed by systems that are designed to handle an equivalent storage of group a plastics...but that the racks generally collapse because the boats fill with water. Even when boats are wrapped or covered, the covers burn off quickly enough, and it only takes one boat-load(ha ha) of water to bring a hot rack down. (bob kaputo and james lake hit on this topic at the conference last year) I liked the idea of a vortex system. I saw a pretty cool presentation about those this week. They hardly use any water and don't have trouble with obstructions. A high-expansion foam system would probably do the trick too... if you don't mind a huge-normous up front cost of installation. And yes, in my professional opinion, huge-normous is a legitimate description of the cost. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:54 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: boat storage It would be less risky to just go ahead and post all of your credit cards, with verifier #'s plus your driver's Lic. and Social #'s here on the forum. Your potential loss would be far less, and at least you'd be helping someone. If Scott is offering to help design this thing, take him up on it. I'd love to know what you all would end up doing. Now there would be some fodder for the forum. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: AFT WA 4184/AFL-CIO, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: boat storage
Biggest issue with HEF is that you'd have to have a way to contain the foam within the space. Since most of these structures are open, the HEF would just float out of the building. Honestly of all the options Vortex might be one of the best choices, it doesn't require containment like gaseous systems, environmentally friendly, uses small quantities of water (minimize collapse potential). But it really needs some testing to be proven. Has good application for flammables and combustibles, not sure about how it would react against plastics but based on the mechanics and chemistry of the system, it would seem to have potential. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 2:12 PM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: boat storage My understanding of boat rack fires (not a huge volume of knowledge) is that they can be successfully controlled/suppressed by systems that are designed to handle an equivalent storage of group a plastics...but that the racks generally collapse because the boats fill with water. Even when boats are wrapped or covered, the covers burn off quickly enough, and it only takes one boat-load(ha ha) of water to bring a hot rack down. (bob kaputo and james lake hit on this topic at the conference last year) I liked the idea of a vortex system. I saw a pretty cool presentation about those this week. They hardly use any water and don't have trouble with obstructions. A high-expansion foam system would probably do the trick too... if you don't mind a huge-normous up front cost of installation. And yes, in my professional opinion, huge-normous is a legitimate description of the cost. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:54 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: boat storage It would be less risky to just go ahead and post all of your credit cards, with verifier #'s plus your driver's Lic. and Social #'s here on the forum. Your potential loss would be far less, and at least you'd be helping someone. If Scott is offering to help design this thing, take him up on it. I'd love to know what you all would end up doing. Now there would be some fodder for the forum. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: boat storage
Scot and Thom are both right. ESFR design and installation has nothing to do with density. At 100 sq.ft. you have the same design as 64 sq.ft. thus density has nothing to do with ESFR. Scot is applying the science of ADD (actual delivery density) and RDD (required delivered density) and is correct if the ADD is less than the RDD the fire doesn't get controlled or suppressed. Now Scot you also forgot a couple things in your list of two. Lots in it self is good but not the complete answer. Droplet size and velocity are a critical component in high challenge fires. You can throw an ESFR link in an SSP with lots of water and get spectacular failures where ESFR is successful because the drops are bigger and they spray down almost like a FF nozzle. Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of å... Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:58 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: boat storage do we think fires in group A plastics, bin-box storage-on-racks, are going to ignore whether a sprinkler is putting out 0.495 gpm/ft2 versus 0.97 gpm/ft2? I am sure the statement that density has nothing to do with ESFR technology was meant in some connotation that is lost on me, similar to how I missed the denotation in the statement from 20 to 15 bar on the fire pump thread. I am not picking on the person here. Least I am TRYING not to. Just seemed like a statement that needed clarification... if density has nothing to do with ESFR technology, then how come their orifice is so big? ;-) ESFR's may be tabled in the Standard based on discharge pressure, but truth is, at the relatively high pressures that ESFR's are discharging at (high pressures relative to SS), it is not the pressure that is determining the tenor of the conversation with the fire, (all ESFR's are yelling at the fire), it is the density. ESFR technology is based on too things: early, and lots. the lots gots to do with density. i think the statement that density has nothing to do with ESFR technology is defying some law or laws of physics and some conservation equations. fires recognize sprinkler water density. and it very much is a deciding factor as to whether we send Mr. Fire home before the red truck rolls up. scot deal excelsior fire engineering ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: boat storage
Now Ron don't you know that once one has read the pamphlet or seen the video presentation, regardless of experience or degree they are wholly capable of specifying these systems for whatever type hazard they can think of? Man, come on, that's what it means when the note says design an NFPA acceptable system. It's just so easy... We just over think everything ya know. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 2:16 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: boat storage And a CAF system might work but when talking about CAF, Vortex or Hi-X the operative term is might. Is their an engineer willing to bet on it and is there a NICET tech stupid enough to do engineering? Probably yes to both but not me. On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote: My understanding of boat rack fires (not a huge volume of knowledge) is that they can be successfully controlled/suppressed by systems that are designed to handle an equivalent storage of group a plastics...but that the racks generally collapse because the boats fill with water. Even when boats are wrapped or covered, the covers burn off quickly enough, and it only takes one boat-load(ha ha) of water to bring a hot rack down. (bob kaputo and james lake hit on this topic at the conference last year) I liked the idea of a vortex system. I saw a pretty cool presentation about those this week. They hardly use any water and don't have trouble with obstructions. A high-expansion foam system would probably do the trick too... if you don't mind a huge-normous up front cost of installation. And yes, in my professional opinion, huge-normous is a legitimate description of the cost. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:54 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: boat storage It would be less risky to just go ahead and post all of your credit cards, with verifier #'s plus your driver's Lic. and Social #'s here on the forum. Your potential loss would be far less, and at least you'd be helping someone. If Scott is offering to help design this thing, take him up on it. I'd love to know what you all would end up doing. Now there would be some fodder for the forum. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman Instructor Fire Protection Engineering Bates Technical College Tacoma, WA Member: AFT WA 4184/AFL-CIO, SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, NIBS, WSAFM, WFC ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Another Sprinkler Save!
Micron worker burned in flash fire http://www.ktvb.com/news/Man-burned-in-chemical-fire-at-Micron-92788959.html Bob Knight, CET 1660 Hill Rd Melba, Idaho 83641 (208) 318-3057 (208) 495-2057 fax b...@firebyknight.com www.firebyknight.com No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.814 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2853 - Release Date: 05/04/10 00:27:00 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: boat storage
To all, It appears that most sprinkler contractors like to gamble their lives away. Working with rack storage of boat requires working with end user and AHJ using detailed protection concepts. Most of the alternate fire extinguishing systems suggested such as CAF, High Ex Foam and Vortex systems as per the system's manufacturer who all state that their systems are not designed to protect rack storage of boats with fuel. So you have to find a system that the system manufacturer will support using to protect the boat storage. In trying to protect one of these buildings we tried all of the alternative systems and when asked to support the use of these systems in this type of storage in writing all manufacturers stated that they have not tested the system with this type of storage and would not know how to develop a design to address the multiple hazards that boat rack storage presents. Also we must protect the rack structure since most of these buildings are support structurally by the racks. This is not the type of building that is protected to the minimum level of protection. This is similar to Pod type storage and is not addressed by NFPA 13 or NFPA 303. Suggest that you discuss you EO insurance coverage with your broker before you start one of these boat rack storage buildings. Some insurance policies require the insured to follow industry standard practice in order to insure conerage. A wealthy old time sprinkler contractor was asked how de he get so wealthy? He answered A good contractor knows when to walk away from a project. This might be one of these times when it is better to walk away. And we have not started to address the requirements of the IBC yet. Regards, Jim Davidson Davidson Associates Fire Protection * Medical Gas * Code Consulting 302-994-9500 Fax:302-234-1781 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 2:31 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: boat storage Biggest issue with HEF is that you'd have to have a way to contain the foam within the space. Since most of these structures are open, the HEF would just float out of the building. Honestly of all the options Vortex might be one of the best choices, it doesn't require containment like gaseous systems, environmentally friendly, uses small quantities of water (minimize collapse potential). But it really needs some testing to be proven. Has good application for flammables and combustibles, not sure about how it would react against plastics but based on the mechanics and chemistry of the system, it would seem to have potential. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matt Grise Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 2:12 PM To: 'sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org' Subject: RE: boat storage My understanding of boat rack fires (not a huge volume of knowledge) is that they can be successfully controlled/suppressed by systems that are designed to handle an equivalent storage of group a plastics...but that the racks generally collapse because the boats fill with water. Even when boats are wrapped or covered, the covers burn off quickly enough, and it only takes one boat-load(ha ha) of water to bring a hot rack down. (bob kaputo and james lake hit on this topic at the conference last year) I liked the idea of a vortex system. I saw a pretty cool presentation about those this week. They hardly use any water and don't have trouble with obstructions. A high-expansion foam system would probably do the trick too... if you don't mind a huge-normous up front cost of installation. And yes, in my professional opinion, huge-normous is a legitimate description of the cost. Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP Sales Engineer Alliance Fire Protection *Licensed in KS MO 913.888.0647 ph 913.888.0618 f 913.927.0222 cell www. AFPsprink.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom McMahon Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 12:54 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: boat storage It would be less risky to just go ahead and post all of your credit cards, with verifier #'s plus your driver's Lic. and Social #'s here on the forum. Your potential loss would be far less, and at least you'd be helping someone. If Scott is offering to help design this thing, take him up on it. I'd love to know what you all would end up doing. Now there would be some fodder for the forum. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper
UG licensing requirements for Tennessee
Have been able to get a clear picture of who is qualified by license to install underground fire mains. Initial review of state law looks like sprinkler contractor only. Anyone out there do work in TN on a regular basis that might be able to shed some light and point to state statute or code for this data? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list Sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
