[Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

[Rick Matsuda]

I’m old school and I find it difficult to read and interpret the current codes 
so I make my best WAG’s based on what I believe to be the intent. My basis is 
from the old 231 storage definitions that didn’t have the percentage of volume 
requirements that are so difficult to calculate. 

Class 1- noncombustible so it doesn’t burn. 
Class 2- Class 1 in a box or crate that will burn. 
Class 3- combustible so it burns. 

You should upgrade one or two classes if there is an “appreciable” amount of 
Group A plastic packaging or if the storage is on plastic pallets instead of 
wood pallets.  

So your metal product is a Class 1 and you upgrade to Class 2 with the plastic 
tubes. To be safe, you can upgrade to Class 3 cause your system can still 
protect it. 

Class 4- Class 1, 2, or 3 with “appreciable” amount of plastics. 

Therefore, my WAG’s says that it’s a Class 3 commodity. 
Just cause I’m curious, what exactly is this metal piece that’s packed in a 
plastic tube?

Rick Matsuda 


> On Feb 1, 2023, at 12:21 PM, Scott Futrell  wrote:
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that depending upon the IFC edition that is adopted the IFC used 
> to have tables that did NOT match NFPA 13. So, if you haven’t, look at the 
> IFC, too.
>  
> Scott
>  
> From: Fpdcdesign  
> Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:45 AM
> To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
> 
> Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume
>  
> To complicate matters further, this project is in a jurisdiction using the 
> 2013 edition of 13, which only states 5% by weight or volume of Group A or B 
> plastics. No difference between expanded or non-expanded. 
>  
> Todd G Williams, PE
> Fire Protection Design/Consulting
> Stonington, CT
> 860-535-2080 (ofc)
> 860-554-7054  (fax)
> 860-608-4559 (cell)
> 
> 
>  
> 
> _
> SprinklerForum mailing list:
> https://lists.firesprinkler.org/list/sprinklerforum.lists.firesprinkler.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to sprinklerforum-le...@lists.firesprinkler.org

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

[Scott Futrell]

Keep in mind that depending upon the IFC edition that is adopted the IFC used 
to have tables that did NOT match NFPA 13. So, if you haven’t, look at the IFC, 
too.

Scott

From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:45 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

To complicate matters further, this project is in a jurisdiction using the 2013 
edition of 13, which only states 5% by weight or volume of Group A or B 
plastics. No difference between expanded or non-expanded.

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)





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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

[Fpdcdesign]

  
  

  To complicate matters further, this project is in a jurisdiction using the 
2013 edition of 13, which only states 5% by weight or volume of Group A or B 
plastics. No difference between expanded or non-expanded.   
  
  
  
 Todd G Williams, PE  
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
  
Stonington, CT
  
860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)
  
860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)
  
860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)
  
  
  
  

  
  
>   
> On Feb 1, 2023 at 12:39 PM,   (mailto:anth...@archerconstruction.com)>  wrote:
>   
>   
>   
>xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" 
> xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" 
> xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml; 
> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40;>   http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">   <!-- /* Font 
> Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 
> 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* 
> Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; 
> font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;} a:link, 
> span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; 
> text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle20 {mso-style-type:personal-reply; 
> font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault 
> {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 
> {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 
> {page:WordSection1;} -->   vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word">  
>Eric your 
> Correct: NFPA 13 – 2019 edition, 
> section 20.4.5.4 A Group A Non-expanded Plastics commodity shall be defined 
> as a product, with or without pallets, that meets one of the following 
> criteria: class="MsoNormal">
>  (5) Exposed, that contains greater than 5 % and up to 25% by volume of group 
> A  expanded plastics.class="MsoNormal">   But I have 
> always thought that the volume refers to the carton or crate volume and 
> how much of the plastic content makes up this volume, now I see that NFPA 
> does in fact use the term volume when referring to Exposed plastics?  
>class="MsoNormal">Thanksclass="MsoNormal">class="MsoNormal">   style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> 
>   From:  Eric Rieve  e...@rievefire.com  
>Sent:  Wednesday, February 1, 2023 9:12 AM   To:  
> Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers  
> sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org   Subject:  
> [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume 
> class="MsoNormal">Anthony,class="MsoNormal">   Looking on 
> NFPALink for NFPA 13-2019 20.4.5.4 (5) says expanded plastics. Are you 
> looking in a hardcopy? Double check if you don’t mind.class="MsoNormal">class="MsoNormal">Eric   Rieve Fire 
> Protection  
>   From:  Anthony Carrizosa   href="mailto:anth...@archerconstruction.com;>anth...@archerconstruction.com
>  Sent:  Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:51 AM   To:  
> Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers   href="mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org;>sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>Subject:  [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume  
>class="MsoNormal">Now I see that the next section 20.4.5.4 on Group A 
> plastics shows an Exposed Volume?   (5) 
> Exposed that contains greater than 5 % and up to 25% by volume of group A 
> nonexpanded plastics?class="MsoNormal">   Maybe I was 
> too quick to think that the volume only applies to the box or carton its 
> in.   class="MsoNormal">class="MsoNormal">class="MsoNormal">   style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"> 
>   From:  Anthony Carrizosa   href="mailto:anth...@archerconstruction.com;>anth...@archerconstruction.com
>  Sent:  Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:36 AM   To:  
> Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers   href="mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org;>sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>Subject:  [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume  
>class="MsoNormal">Todd, it’s interesting to note that in NFPA 13 2019 
> edition, 20.4.4.1 (4) shows for  
> Cartoned  that contains greater than 

[Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

[Anthony Carrizosa]

Eric your Correct:
NFPA 13 – 2019 edition, section 20.4.5.4 A Group A Non-expanded Plastics 
commodity shall be defined as a product, with or without pallets, that meets 
one of the following criteria:

(5) Exposed, that contains greater than 5 % and up to 25% by 
volume of group A expanded plastics.

But I have always thought that the volume refers to the carton or  crate volume 
and how much of the plastic content makes up this volume, now I see that NFPA 
does in fact use the term volume when referring to Exposed plastics?

Thanks


From: Eric Rieve 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 9:12 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

Anthony,

Looking on NFPALink for NFPA 13-2019 20.4.5.4 (5) says expanded plastics. Are 
you looking in a hardcopy? Double check if you don’t mind.

Eric
Rieve Fire Protection

From: Anthony Carrizosa 
mailto:anth...@archerconstruction.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:51 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

Now I see that the next section 20.4.5.4 on Group A plastics shows an Exposed 
Volume?
(5) Exposed that contains greater than 5 % and up to 25% by volume of group A 
nonexpanded plastics?

Maybe I was too quick to think that the volume only applies to the box or 
carton its in.




From: Anthony Carrizosa 
mailto:anth...@archerconstruction.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:36 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

Todd, it’s interesting to note that in NFPA 13 2019 edition, 20.4.4.1
(4) shows for Cartoned that contains greater than 5% by Volume.
Then (6) Exposed only refers to weight..

I think they are making it clear that if in a carton or wooden crate then it’s 
the volume of plastic within the box, if exposed then use the weight of the 
product since there is no volume to determine.

Hope this helps.


Anthony Carrizosa
Project Manager | Fire Protection
7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032
Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office Dir: 253-341-4593
[cid:image001.jpg@01D93620.F1C39380]
https://archerconstruction.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,=1>



From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:11 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Definition of Volume

Here is an interesting one that came up. When I calculate the volume of a 
commodity, do I include the air inside the box or only the combustible material?

The product is metal inside a plastic tube inside a cardboard box. The only 
plastic is the tube. There is a lot of air space around it inside the cardboard 
box. If I calculate the full volume of the box, the plastic would be less than 
5% of the volume and be a Class III commodity. If I only include the 
combustible material, the volume of plastic would exceed the 5% (but less than 
the 25%) of volume and it would be a Class IV. Of course the only reason I am 
asking this is that the existing system can provide protection for Class III 
but not for Class IV. Thoughts?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

[Eric Rieve]

Anthony,

Looking on NFPALink for NFPA 13-2019 20.4.5.4 (5) says expanded plastics. Are 
you looking in a hardcopy? Double check if you don’t mind.

Eric
Rieve Fire Protection

From: Anthony Carrizosa 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:51 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

Now I see that the next section 20.4.5.4 on Group A plastics shows an Exposed 
Volume?
(5) Exposed that contains greater than 5 % and up to 25% by volume of group A 
nonexpanded plastics?

Maybe I was too quick to think that the volume only applies to the box or 
carton its in.




From: Anthony Carrizosa 
mailto:anth...@archerconstruction.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:36 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

Todd, it’s interesting to note that in NFPA 13 2019 edition, 20.4.4.1
(4) shows for Cartoned that contains greater than 5% by Volume.
Then (6) Exposed only refers to weight..

I think they are making it clear that if in a carton or wooden crate then it’s 
the volume of plastic within the box, if exposed then use the weight of the 
product since there is no volume to determine.

Hope this helps.


Anthony Carrizosa
Project Manager | Fire Protection
7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032
Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office Dir: 253-341-4593
[cid:image001.jpg@01D93636.56891AA0]
https://archerconstruction.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,=1>



From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:11 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Definition of Volume

Here is an interesting one that came up. When I calculate the volume of a 
commodity, do I include the air inside the box or only the combustible material?

The product is metal inside a plastic tube inside a cardboard box. The only 
plastic is the tube. There is a lot of air space around it inside the cardboard 
box. If I calculate the full volume of the box, the plastic would be less than 
5% of the volume and be a Class III commodity. If I only include the 
combustible material, the volume of plastic would exceed the 5% (but less than 
the 25%) of volume and it would be a Class IV. Of course the only reason I am 
asking this is that the existing system can provide protection for Class III 
but not for Class IV. Thoughts?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

[Anthony Carrizosa]

Now I see that the next section 20.4.5.4 on Group A plastics shows an Exposed 
Volume?
(5) Exposed that contains greater than 5 % and up to 25% by volume of group A 
nonexpanded plastics?

Maybe I was too quick to think that the volume only applies to the box or 
carton its in.



From: Anthony Carrizosa 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:36 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

Todd, it’s interesting to note that in NFPA 13 2019 edition, 20.4.4.1
(4) shows for Cartoned that contains greater than 5% by Volume.
Then (6) Exposed only refers to weight..

I think they are making it clear that if in a carton or wooden crate then it’s 
the volume of plastic within the box, if exposed then use the weight of the 
product since there is no volume to determine.

Hope this helps.


Anthony Carrizosa
Project Manager | Fire Protection
7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032
Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office Dir: 253-341-4593
[cid:image001.jpg@01D9361A.41953F50]
https://archerconstruction.com<https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2farcherconstruction.com%2f=E,1,Wdb65AWzMgSBzW3HDw91SfcRQCtxDUQKoJf-UowQ-WnB_WMosgG-8W7eLePJ42PwWQvLiQx16Pls052VqwHO7tKm-_u5AnWly0ewkNiMkxn-AjQb1JI,=1>



From: Fpdcdesign mailto:fpdcdes...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:11 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Definition of Volume

Here is an interesting one that came up. When I calculate the volume of a 
commodity, do I include the air inside the box or only the combustible material?

The product is metal inside a plastic tube inside a cardboard box. The only 
plastic is the tube. There is a lot of air space around it inside the cardboard 
box. If I calculate the full volume of the box, the plastic would be less than 
5% of the volume and be a Class III commodity. If I only include the 
combustible material, the volume of plastic would exceed the 5% (but less than 
the 25%) of volume and it would be a Class IV. Of course the only reason I am 
asking this is that the existing system can provide protection for Class III 
but not for Class IV. Thoughts?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

[Eric Rieve]

Todd,

Is the tube an expanded or non-expanded plastic? (for some reason to me the 
word tube defaults in my head to something hard like pvc, but I could see a 
styrofoam tube as well) The volume criteria is only for cartooned expanded 
plastics so may not even apply to your situation. If it still does, then 
looking at the wording of the section:

(4)Cartoned, or within a wooden container, that contains greater than 5 percent 
and up to 25 percent by volume of expanded Group A plastics

To me, I see this as saying that you have a carton or wooden container that 
then contains 5-25% volume of expanded plastics. So since the carton is the 
target object of the rule I do believe you can count the air as part of your 
volume. This isn’t an interpretation I’ve specifically had to deal with in the 
past though, so hopefully someone else can chime in.

Hope this helps!
Eric Rieve
Rieve Fire Protection


From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 11:11 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Definition of Volume

Here is an interesting one that came up. When I calculate the volume of a 
commodity, do I include the air inside the box or only the combustible material?

The product is metal inside a plastic tube inside a cardboard box. The only 
plastic is the tube. There is a lot of air space around it inside the cardboard 
box. If I calculate the full volume of the box, the plastic would be less than 
5% of the volume and be a Class III commodity. If I only include the 
combustible material, the volume of plastic would exceed the 5% (but less than 
the 25%) of volume and it would be a Class IV. Of course the only reason I am 
asking this is that the existing system can provide protection for Class III 
but not for Class IV. Thoughts?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

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[Sprinklerforum] Re: Definition of Volume

[Anthony Carrizosa]

Todd, it’s interesting to note that in NFPA 13 2019 edition, 20.4.4.1
(4) shows for Cartoned that contains greater than 5% by Volume.
Then (6) Exposed only refers to weight..

I think they are making it clear that if in a carton or wooden crate then it’s 
the volume of plastic within the box, if exposed then use the weight of the 
product since there is no volume to determine.

Hope this helps.


Anthony Carrizosa
Project Manager | Fire Protection
7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032
Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office Dir: 253-341-4593
[cid:image001.jpg@01D93618.3510D1B0]
https://archerconstruction.com



From: Fpdcdesign 
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2023 8:11 AM
To: Discussion list on issues relating to automatic fire sprinklers 

Subject: [Sprinklerforum] Definition of Volume

Here is an interesting one that came up. When I calculate the volume of a 
commodity, do I include the air inside the box or only the combustible material?

The product is metal inside a plastic tube inside a cardboard box. The only 
plastic is the tube. There is a lot of air space around it inside the cardboard 
box. If I calculate the full volume of the box, the plastic would be less than 
5% of the volume and be a Class III commodity. If I only include the 
combustible material, the volume of plastic would exceed the 5% (but less than 
the 25%) of volume and it would be a Class IV. Of course the only reason I am 
asking this is that the existing system can provide protection for Class III 
but not for Class IV. Thoughts?

Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, CT
860-535-2080 (ofc)
860-554-7054  (fax)
860-608-4559 (cell)

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Re: Definition of Non-Combustible for hydraulic fluid

[BRUCE VERHEI via Sprinklerforum]

The code change that allowed elimination of heads is a couple decades old.

We were confused about meaning. I’d like to say I can remember who I talked 
with or have notes. I don’t. I know the re-emphasis by FM concerning both 
heated and unheated combustible liquids being aerosolized by high pressure 
leaks had made everyone vigilant about that concern. So we did some phoning. I 
talked with the actual person who wrote the code change and one of the 13 
committee members, as well as the Chief Elevator Inspector with WA State L 
WA State had also implemented an elevator standard code change about the same 
time that was pertinent. The State amendment was requiring secondary 
containment around the portion of the system extending below the pit or use of 
then-newer fluids. The containment requirement was driven by ground water 
pollution concerns. I guess the old fluids had quite detrimental effects to 
drinking water. The result was virtually all hydraulic elevator systems in WA 
State were converted to newer liquids. These newer fluids all complied with the 
proponents’ original intent. At least in our state all systems were expected to 
be compliant. So the requirement for head in the pit was gone, at least for us. 

Sorry I can’t remember more details. It’s been a long time ago.

Best.

Bruce.

> On 07/12/2020 8:57 PM å...  via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> Ed 
> 
> 1.  FM has Approval Standard 693 wherein some non-water based 
> fire-resistant hydraulic fluids are certified.
> 
> 2.  There are tests for noncombustibility,  from ASTM, and they are cited 
> in NFPA 130 and NFPA 101.
> 
> 3.  Approval using interpretation from the AHJ, which takes into 
> consideration occupancy and use.  Consider a long analogy and seque below, 
> which I apologize to the Forum in advance for.  
> 
> 
> The "Metro" standard deals with noncombustibility, because 'Metro 
> occupancies'  allow themselves in a non-simple, non-clear way to be 
> non-sprinklered, according to the NFPA committee members who do write to me.
> 
> 
> We probably find such an admirable treatment of " noncombustibility"  
> within the covers of NFPA 130, the rail and rail / train station fire design 
> guide from NFPA, because they has such a miserable treatment of sprinkler 
> design and incongruency with their objective statement at Section 4.2.2.
> Take a look at the admirable treatment of combustibility prescriptions 
> copy-pasted from the 2017 edition.
> 
> 4.6* Noncombustible Material.
> 4.6.1* A material that complies with any of the following shall be 
> considered a noncombustible material: [ 101: 4.6.13.1]
> (1) A material that, in the form in which it is used and under the 
> conditions anticipated, will not ignite, burn, support combustion, or release 
> …ammable vapors, when subjected to ‚re or heat. [ 101: 4.6.13.1(1)]
> (2) A material that is reported as passing ASTM E136. [ 101: 4.6.13.1(2]
> (3) A material that is reported as complying with the pass/fail criteria 
> of ASTM E136 when tested in accordance with the test method and procedure in 
> ASTM E2652. [ 101: 4.6.13.1(3)]
> 
> More on judgment-with-uncertainty by fire plan reviewers.
> 
> The IBC and its handbook, quite emphatically writes,  "if you are an AHJ, 
> you are paid to render expert judgment.  There will be times this is 
> difficult and you will have to interpret the intent of the Building Code.  
> This is why we (insert your version of the Building Code here: IBC/California 
> Building Code/ Texas Building Code, etc.)  authorize the Building Code 
> Official and their duly appointed deputes with the trust and expectation to 
> interpret the intention of the Building Code.   
> 
> I add to the above, for those AHJ that are paid civil servants, they are 
> government employees.  As far as I can recall, government is elected to serve 
> the people.  The definition of what is ' service' changes with the times 
> and conditions, but service should be to ' the will of the people'  in the 
> instances of elected governments.  As such, it is the duty of the AHJ to 
> educate themselves, learn the intent of the Code, seek advice, and then stand 
> up and earn their money by making interpretations that are open, honest and 
> simple-as-possible.  It takes courage.  There will be mistakes.  I don't know 
> of any AHJ's being legally punished for making mistakes, and there have been 
> some deadly ones made in past, repeatedly.  I know plenty of AHJ's that have 
> been indirectly punished for not serving the will of well-healed corporations 
> whom financed the building infrastructures.  That is the politics of plan 
> review.
> 
> I have developed a tool that helps plan reviewers make 
> judgments-with-uncertainties, as all judgments involving safety measured 
> against Mother Nature, unavoidably involve uncertainty.  The burden of 
> uncertainty comes inherently with the territory of being a 

RE: Definition of Non-Combustible for hydraulic fluid

[Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum]

See related forum post for additional info:

NFPA 30- 2015:
4.2.2 Combustible Liquid. Any liquid that has a closed-cup flash point at or 
above 100°F (37.8°C), as determined by the test procedures and apparatus set 
forth in Section 4.4. Combustible liquids are classified according to Section 
4.3.

4.3.1 Flammable liquids, as defined in 3.3.33.2 and 4.2.3, shall be classified 
as Class I liquids and shall be further subclassified in accordance with the 
following:
(1) Class IA Liquid -Any liquid that has a flash point below 73°F (22.8°C) and 
a boiling point below 100°F (37.8°C)
(2) Class IB Liquid -Any liquid that has a flash point below 73°F (22.8°C) and 
a boiling point at or above 100°F (37.8°C)
(3) Class IC Liquid - Any liquid that has a flash point at or above 73°F 
(22.8°C), but below 100°F (37.8°C)

4.3.2 Combustible liquids, as defined in 3.3.33.1 and 4.2.2, shall be 
classified in accordance with the following:
(1) Class II Liquid - Any liquid that has a flash point at or above 100°F 
(37.8°C) and below 140°F (60°C)
(2) Class III Liquid - Any liquid that has a flash point at or above 140°F 
(60°C)
(a) Class IIIA Liquid-Any liquid that has a flash point at or above 140°F 
(60°C), but below 200°F (93°C)
(b) Class IIIB Liquid-Any liquid that has a flash point at or above 200°F (93°C)

IBC - 2015
[F] COMBUSTIBLE LIQUID. A liquid having a closed cup flash point at or above 
100°F (38°C). Combustible liquids shall be subdivided as follows:
Class II. Liquids having a closed cup flash point at or above 100°F (38°C) and 
below 140°F (60°C).
Class IIIA. Liquids having a closed cup flash point at or above 140°F (60°C) 
and below 200°F (93°C).
Class IIIB. Liquids having a closed cup flash point at or above 200°F (93°C).

The category of combustible liquids does not include compressed gases or 
cryogenic fluids.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | 
www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 1:34 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Definition of Non-Combustible for hydraulic fluid

A client is wrestling with an AHJ regarding sprinkler exceptions in elevator 
pits on a multi-building project.  The issue is whether or not the hydraulic 
fluid is noncombustible and the MSDS sheet from Chevron states, "Not classified 
by OSHA as flammable or combustible."   It's NFPA rated 1 for flammability 
(it's basically mineral oil) with a flashpoint of 356°F and no Autoignition 
value is proffered.   NFPA 220 §4.1.5.1 has a definition but it's for building 
materials - does anyone know if there's an overarching ("preferred") definition 
in the NFPA code set for "Noncombustible" as it applies to hydraulic elevator 
fluid?


[cid:image002.jpg@01D65873.8837CD10]





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RE: Definition of Non-Combustible for hydraulic fluid

[Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum]

The old "lesser combustible" or "less combustible" definitions are of no value. 
 Look at the SDS for the material. If there is a flashpoint, it is categorized 
within the IBC and NFPA 30.  A liquid with a flashpoint of over 200°F is a 
class IIIB combustible.  While IIIB liquids pose the least hazard when it comes 
to ignition, it is still a combustible.  Autoignition temperatures for IIIB 
liquids can be quite high, making them essentially impossible to ignite by just 
heating under most conditions and nearly impossible to ignite by a spark alone 
while in their liquid state at ambient temperature and at atmospheric pressure. 
 So from an elevator pit standpoint, the presence of this fluid requires 
sprinklers.

The characteristics of a combustible liquid released under pressure can mimic a 
flammable liquid due to the liquid becoming an aerosol which takes far less 
energy to ignite.

This same conversation comes up with regard to oil cooled electrical equipment.

Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com | 
www.jacobs.com
1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 1:34 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Definition of Non-Combustible for hydraulic fluid

A client is wrestling with an AHJ regarding sprinkler exceptions in elevator 
pits on a multi-building project.  The issue is whether or not the hydraulic 
fluid is noncombustible and the MSDS sheet from Chevron states, "Not classified 
by OSHA as flammable or combustible."   It's NFPA rated 1 for flammability 
(it's basically mineral oil) with a flashpoint of 356°F and no Autoignition 
value is proffered.   NFPA 220 §4.1.5.1 has a definition but it's for building 
materials - does anyone know if there's an overarching ("preferred") definition 
in the NFPA code set for "Noncombustible" as it applies to hydraulic elevator 
fluid?


[cid:image002.jpg@01D65871.6C2919F0]





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RE: Definition of Non-Combustible for hydraulic fluid

[Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum]

Thanks.

From: Ben Young [mailto:derblitzkrie...@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2020 11:01 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Steve Leyton 
Subject: Re: Definition of Non-Combustible for hydraulic fluid

My understanding is that this was something FM was looking into a few years 
back but never got anything that was considered non combustible. So this is 
actually a bad leftover reference in the code that should be removed. As far as 
I know there is no such thing as non-combustible hydraulic fluid available 
anywhere.  Let me see what I can dig up though if you need proper info

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 1:34 PM Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:
A client is wrestling with an AHJ regarding sprinkler exceptions in elevator 
pits on a multi-building project.  The issue is whether or not the hydraulic 
fluid is noncombustible and the MSDS sheet from Chevron states, “Not classified 
by OSHA as flammable or combustible.”   It’s NFPA rated 1 for flammability 
(it’s basically mineral oil) with a flashpoint of 356°F and no Autoignition 
value is proffered.   NFPA 220 §4.1.5.1 has a definition but it’s for building 
materials – does anyone know if there’s an overarching (“preferred”) definition 
in the NFPA code set for “Noncombustible” as it applies to hydraulic elevator 
fluid?


[cid:image001.jpg@01D656B0.201B4820]


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Re: Definition of Non-Combustible for hydraulic fluid

[Ben Young via Sprinklerforum]

My understanding is that this was something FM was looking into a few years
back but never got anything that was considered non combustible. So this is
actually a bad leftover reference in the code that should be removed. As
far as I know there is no such thing as non-combustible hydraulic fluid
available anywhere.  Let me see what I can dig up though if you need proper
info

On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 1:34 PM Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> A client is wrestling with an AHJ regarding sprinkler exceptions in
> elevator pits on a multi-building project.  The issue is whether or not the
> hydraulic fluid is noncombustible and the MSDS sheet from Chevron states,
> “Not classified by OSHA as flammable or combustible.”   It’s NFPA rated 1
> for flammability (it’s basically mineral oil) with a flashpoint of 356°F
> and no Autoignition value is proffered.   NFPA 220 §4.1.5.1 has a
> definition but it’s for building materials – does anyone know if there’s an
> overarching (“preferred”) definition in the NFPA code set for
> “Noncombustible” as it applies to hydraulic elevator fluid?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
>
> http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org
>
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Benjamin Young
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RE: definition of "bulk"

[Larry Keeping]

Section 22.37 is extracted from NFPA 400.  NFPA 400 has a definition for “Bulk 
Solid Storage” – The storage of more than 6000 lb (2722 kg) in a single 
container.

Larry Keeping

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Travis Mack
Sent: May-13-19 10:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: definition of "bulk"

I believe that when 13 does not define something you are to go to a recognized 
dictionary. So try Webster’s online.

No, the Urban Dictionary doesn’t count.
Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
480-505-9271
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign,com<http://www.mfpdesign,com>
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Sent from my iPhone

On May 13, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Zachary Siegrist 
mailto:zachary.siegr...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I am inquiring to see if anyone can provide clarification to the term "bulk" as 
it relates to the storage of solid oxidizers in Table 22.37.1.4.1 (2013 ed.).  
I don't see the term defined in Chapter 3.

Zach Siegrist
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Re: definition of "bulk"

[Travis Mack]

I believe that when 13 does not define something you are to go to a recognized 
dictionary. So try Webster’s online. 

No, the Urban Dictionary doesn’t count. 

Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET
480-505-9271
MFP Design, LLC
www.mfpdesign,com
Send large files to MFP Design via:
https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 13, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Zachary Siegrist  
> wrote:
> 
> I am inquiring to see if anyone can provide clarification to the term "bulk" 
> as it relates to the storage of solid oxidizers in Table 22.37.1.4.1 (2013 
> ed.).  I don't see the term defined in Chapter 3.
> 
> Zach Siegrist 
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RE: definition of public space

[Rod DiBona]

Good observation Scott – Great quote. Appreciate the input. We will see what 
happens.

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of å... 
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 10:29 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: definition of public space


One thing about concealed heads, pointed out to me be a very astute 
professional, is that practically these sprinklers become impaired in 
relatively short order.  Painters usually  don't care about the finer details 
of sprinklers.  They paint over the concealed heads.  The air gap is plugged.  
Activation is delayed.  With several layers I will guess delayed significantly. 
  If I was a owner depending on sprinklers for safety in my assembly occupancy 
or public spaces such as Marriott, and I was now armed with this information, I 
would think again about the aesthetics of concealed sprinklers.  Looks good on 
paper, but they don't give what you pay for.

"Building a mechanical device for its appearance is kinda like putting lace on 
a bowling ball"

Scot Deal
Excelsior Risk and Fire
gms:  + 420 606 872 129  (GMT +2)


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RE: definition of public space

[Rod DiBona]

Thank you Travis. I am going to ask the PM double check what edition our 
specifications reference. May be helpful. Sure appreciate your help.

Rod

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of MFP Design, LLC
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 12:32 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Kyle Watson 
Subject: RE: definition of public space

Rod:

Marriott can be tricky.  Yes, that is a public space.  They have only recently 
allowed the use of concealed sprinklers.  In the architects I have worked with 
on these properties, we have still been doing recessed sprinklers and not 
concealed.  The 2015 edition of Module 14 is where they started allowing 
concealed sprinklers.  Prior to that, they prohibited the use of concealed 
sprinklers.

I guess in a round about way, if you are held to the specifications, then I 
think they have you on that one, especially if you have concealed sprinklers in 
the remainder of the public spaces.

[MFP_logo_F]
Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
3356 E Vallejo Ct
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com<mailto:email:tm...@mfpdesign.com>

http://www.mfpdesign.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mfpdesign.com%2F=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=HJ8OA4xyeHAoxXNz5mu%2FYfycgtd5nsFrrpvzulZiNkQ%3D=0>
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Send large files to us via: 
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LinkedIn: 
https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Ftravismack=02%7C01%7C%7C1121d49f9e6b4cf248f108d4df580e77%7C14e5497c16da42e69ffa77d19bafe511%7C0%7C0%7C636379016677342180=tT5E7LsZjSmyreKi4gDCa70EWN%2BZodi%2FhbeCbHNRijI%3D=0>

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price 
is forgotten."

From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of Rod DiBona
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 11:27 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org<mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
Cc: Kyle Watson mailto:ky...@rapidfireinc.com>>
Subject: definition of public space

We have a Marriott hotel where we installed a dry system with SR Dry pendants 
in the porte cochere. The specifications call for concealed heads in all public 
areas. The specifications also refer to Module 14 that says that concealed 
heads are not preferred. We submitted the SR dry heads and got approved 
drawings. Now after installation and the stucco ceiling finished the GC has 
directed us to remove and replace with concealed heads per the specifications. 
Do you consider the porte cochere to be a public space? All definitions I have 
found seem to indicate that it is. For those out there doing Marriott 
properties have you seen these done with SR or have they all been concealed? 
Thanks.

Rod at Rapid
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RE: definition of public space

[MFP Design, LLC]

Rod:

 

Marriott can be tricky.  Yes, that is a public space.  They have only
recently allowed the use of concealed sprinklers.  In the architects I have
worked with on these properties, we have still been doing recessed
sprinklers and not concealed.  The 2015 edition of Module 14 is where they
started allowing concealed sprinklers.  Prior to that, they prohibited the
use of concealed sprinklers.

 

I guess in a round about way, if you are held to the specifications, then I
think they have you on that one, especially if you have concealed sprinklers
in the remainder of the public spaces.

 



Travis Mack, SET

MFP Design, LLC

3356 E Vallejo Ct

Gilbert, AZ 85298

480-505-9271

fax: 866-430-6107

  email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

 

 
 http://www.mfpdesign.com

 

https://www.facebook.com/pages/MFP-Design-LLC/92218417692

Send large files to us via:

https://www.hightail.com/u/MFPDesign 

LinkedIn:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/travismack

 

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low
price is forgotten."

 

From: Sprinklerforum  On
Behalf Of Rod DiBona
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 11:27 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Kyle Watson 
Subject: definition of public space

 

We have a Marriott hotel where we installed a dry system with SR Dry
pendants in the porte cochere. The specifications call for concealed heads
in all public areas. The specifications also refer to Module 14 that says
that concealed heads are not preferred. We submitted the SR dry heads and
got approved drawings. Now after installation and the stucco ceiling
finished the GC has directed us to remove and replace with concealed heads
per the specifications. Do you consider the porte cochere to be a public
space? All definitions I have found seem to indicate that it is. For those
out there doing Marriott properties have you seen these done with SR or have
they all been concealed? Thanks.

 

Rod at Rapid

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RE: definition of public space

[JD Gamble]

C'mon Rod. It's not like you're having to tackle a goose or something, ... just 
send a truck over and replace them.  Tell the guy he "owes you one".  :)

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Rod DiBona
Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 12:27 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Kyle Watson 
Subject: definition of public space

We have a Marriott hotel where we installed a dry system with SR Dry pendants 
in the porte cochere. The specifications call for concealed heads in all public 
areas. The specifications also refer to Module 14 that says that concealed 
heads are not preferred. We submitted the SR dry heads and got approved 
drawings. Now after installation and the stucco ceiling finished the GC has 
directed us to remove and replace with concealed heads per the specifications. 
Do you consider the porte cochere to be a public space? All definitions I have 
found seem to indicate that it is. For those out there doing Marriott 
properties have you seen these done with SR or have they all been concealed? 
Thanks.

Rod at Rapid
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Re: definition of a bathroom

[IPA]

Restroom?


On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote:

 Looking at NFPA 13, 2010 Ch3.3.2 [Bathroom], the section reads: Within a
 dwelling unit, any room or compartment...

 What about rooms with toilets that are not within a dwelling unit? For
 instance a bathroom in an office or warehouse. Are they officially called
 something else?

 Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II
 Sales Engineer
 Alliance Fire Protection
 130 w 9th Ave.
 North Kansas City, MO 64116

 *Licensed in KS  MO

 913.888.0647 ph
 913.888.0618 f
 913.927.0222 cell
 www. AFPsprink.com

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RE: definition of a bathroom

[David Autry]

Latrine.


David Autry

Meininger Fire Protection Inc.
2521 W L St. Suite No.4
Lincoln, Ne 68522
Voice (402) 466-2616
Fax (402) 466-2617
da...@mfp-inc.com

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of IPA
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 1:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: definition of a bathroom

Restroom?


On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote:

 Looking at NFPA 13, 2010 Ch3.3.2 [Bathroom], the section reads:
 Within a dwelling unit, any room or compartment...

 What about rooms with toilets that are not within a dwelling unit? For
 instance a bathroom in an office or warehouse. Are they officially
 called something else?

 Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II
 Sales Engineer
 Alliance Fire Protection
 130 w 9th Ave.
 North Kansas City, MO 64116

 *Licensed in KS  MO

 913.888.0647 ph
 913.888.0618 f
 913.927.0222 cell
 www. AFPsprink.com

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 Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org

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 er.org

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RE: definition of a bathroom

[Jeremy Frazier]

I call them temporary high pile storage.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:42 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: definition of a bathroom

Looking at NFPA 13, 2010 Ch3.3.2 [Bathroom], the section reads: Within a
dwelling unit, any room or compartment...

What about rooms with toilets that are not within a dwelling unit? For
instance a bathroom in an office or warehouse. Are they officially called
something else?

Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II
Sales Engineer
Alliance Fire Protection
130 w 9th Ave.
North Kansas City, MO 64116

*Licensed in KS  MO 

913.888.0647 ph
913.888.0618 f
913.927.0222 cell
www. AFPsprink.com 

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Re: definition of a bathroom

[ampeck]

You just looking for what to call it on the plans for room names?

Otherwise what people have said: Restroom, latrine, head...

On May 23, 2014, at 1:41 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote:

 Looking at NFPA 13, 2010 Ch3.3.2 [Bathroom], the section reads: Within a 
 dwelling unit, any room or compartment...
 
 What about rooms with toilets that are not within a dwelling unit? For 
 instance a bathroom in an office or warehouse. Are they officially called 
 something else?
 
 Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II  
 Sales Engineer 
 Alliance Fire Protection 
 130 w 9th Ave.
 North Kansas City, MO 64116
 
 *Licensed in KS  MO 
 
 913.888.0647 ph 
 913.888.0618 f 
 913.927.0222 cell 
 www. AFPsprink.com 
 
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RE: definition of a bathroom

[Steve Leyton]

Not a defined term.

 




-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of David Autry
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 11:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: definition of a bathroom

Latrine.


David Autry

Meininger Fire Protection Inc.
2521 W L St. Suite No.4
Lincoln, Ne 68522
Voice (402) 466-2616
Fax (402) 466-2617
da...@mfp-inc.com

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of IPA
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 1:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: definition of a bathroom

Restroom?


On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote:

 Looking at NFPA 13, 2010 Ch3.3.2 [Bathroom], the section reads:
 Within a dwelling unit, any room or compartment...

 What about rooms with toilets that are not within a dwelling unit? For 
 instance a bathroom in an office or warehouse. Are they officially 
 called something else?

 Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II
 Sales Engineer
 Alliance Fire Protection
 130 w 9th Ave.
 North Kansas City, MO 64116

 *Licensed in KS  MO

 913.888.0647 ph
 913.888.0618 f
 913.927.0222 cell
 www. AFPsprink.com

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RE: definition of a bathroom

[Matt Grise]

I was more curious than anything else. Why the distinction in the official 
definition?

Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II  
Sales Engineer 
Alliance Fire Protection 
130 w 9th Ave.
North Kansas City, MO 64116

*Licensed in KS  MO 

913.888.0647 ph 
913.888.0618 f 
913.927.0222 cell 
www. AFPsprink.com 


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of ampeck
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: definition of a bathroom

You just looking for what to call it on the plans for room names?

Otherwise what people have said: Restroom, latrine, head...

On May 23, 2014, at 1:41 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote:

 Looking at NFPA 13, 2010 Ch3.3.2 [Bathroom], the section reads: Within a 
 dwelling unit, any room or compartment...
 
 What about rooms with toilets that are not within a dwelling unit? For 
 instance a bathroom in an office or warehouse. Are they officially called 
 something else?
 
 Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II  
 Sales Engineer 
 Alliance Fire Protection 
 130 w 9th Ave.
 North Kansas City, MO 64116
 
 *Licensed in KS  MO 
 
 913.888.0647 ph 
 913.888.0618 f 
 913.927.0222 cell 
 www. AFPsprink.com 
 
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Re: definition of a bathroom

[ampeck]

I believe because 8.15.8.1 under Special Situations that you can eliminate 
the sprinklers in the bathrooms of dwelling units. So they have to define such.

And 8.15.8.1.3 says if the bathroom opens directly onto public corridors they 
aren't considered being inside a dwelling unit. They also have 
Closets/Pantries but it's under Bathrooms so maybe that's why you don't see 
a definition for it. Only the main heading of Bathroom.

On May 23, 2014, at 2:42 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote:

 I was more curious than anything else. Why the distinction in the official 
 definition?
 
 Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II  
 Sales Engineer 
 Alliance Fire Protection 
 130 w 9th Ave.
 North Kansas City, MO 64116
 
 *Licensed in KS  MO 
 
 913.888.0647 ph 
 913.888.0618 f 
 913.927.0222 cell 
 www. AFPsprink.com 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
 On Behalf Of ampeck
 Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:41 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Re: definition of a bathroom
 
 You just looking for what to call it on the plans for room names?
 
 Otherwise what people have said: Restroom, latrine, head...
 
 On May 23, 2014, at 1:41 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote:
 
 Looking at NFPA 13, 2010 Ch3.3.2 [Bathroom], the section reads: Within a 
 dwelling unit, any room or compartment...
 
 What about rooms with toilets that are not within a dwelling unit? For 
 instance a bathroom in an office or warehouse. Are they officially called 
 something else?
 
 Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II  
 Sales Engineer 
 Alliance Fire Protection 
 130 w 9th Ave.
 North Kansas City, MO 64116
 
 *Licensed in KS  MO 
 
 913.888.0647 ph 
 913.888.0618 f 
 913.927.0222 cell 
 www. AFPsprink.com 
 
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 Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
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RE: definition of a bathroom

[Richard Mote]

The way I interpret it is this, 13D, 13R  residential portions of 13 systems 
you can omit sprinklers in bathrooms under 55 sq. ft. if the meet certain 
criteria. Anywhere else you have to put sprinklers in them regardless of size. 
Of course I could be wrong, it happens a lot lately.  


Richard Mote ET
Designer
Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc.
PO Box 407
Middleburg, PA 17842
P- 877-324-ROWE
F- 570-937-6335
rich...@rowesprinkler.com
www.rowesprinkler.com


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Matt Grise
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 3:43 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: definition of a bathroom

I was more curious than anything else. Why the distinction in the official 
definition?

Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II  
Sales Engineer 
Alliance Fire Protection 
130 w 9th Ave.
North Kansas City, MO 64116

*Licensed in KS  MO 

913.888.0647 ph 
913.888.0618 f 
913.927.0222 cell 
www. AFPsprink.com 


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of ampeck
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: definition of a bathroom

You just looking for what to call it on the plans for room names?

Otherwise what people have said: Restroom, latrine, head...

On May 23, 2014, at 1:41 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote:

 Looking at NFPA 13, 2010 Ch3.3.2 [Bathroom], the section reads: Within a 
 dwelling unit, any room or compartment...
 
 What about rooms with toilets that are not within a dwelling unit? For 
 instance a bathroom in an office or warehouse. Are they officially called 
 something else?
 
 Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II  
 Sales Engineer 
 Alliance Fire Protection 
 130 w 9th Ave.
 North Kansas City, MO 64116
 
 *Licensed in KS  MO 
 
 913.888.0647 ph 
 913.888.0618 f 
 913.927.0222 cell 
 www. AFPsprink.com 
 
 ___
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 Sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 http://lists.firesprinkler.org/listinfo.cgi/sprinklerforum-firesprinkler.org

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Re: definition of a bathroom

[Travis Mack]

Be careful eliminating sprinklers in bathrooms in dwelling units.  In 
the 2013 edition of NFPA 13, you can only do that in hotels and motels.  
The wording has been changed from the previous editions.  It is now 
similar to the small closet wording.


Travis Mack, SET
MFP Design, LLC
2508 E Lodgepole Drive
Gilbert, AZ 85298
480-505-9271
fax: 866-430-6107
email:tm...@mfpdesign.com

On 5/22/2014 12:57 PM, ampeck wrote:

I believe because 8.15.8.1 under Special Situations that you can eliminate 
the sprinklers in the bathrooms of dwelling units. So they have to define such.

And 8.15.8.1.3 says if the bathroom opens directly onto public corridors they aren't considered being inside a 
dwelling unit. They also have Closets/Pantries but it's under Bathrooms so maybe 
that's why you don't see a definition for it. Only the main heading of Bathroom.

On May 23, 2014, at 2:42 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote:


I was more curious than anything else. Why the distinction in the official 
definition?

Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II
Sales Engineer
Alliance Fire Protection
130 w 9th Ave.
North Kansas City, MO 64116

*Licensed in KS  MO

913.888.0647 ph
913.888.0618 f
913.927.0222 cell
www. AFPsprink.com


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of ampeck
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2014 2:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: definition of a bathroom

You just looking for what to call it on the plans for room names?

Otherwise what people have said: Restroom, latrine, head...

On May 23, 2014, at 1:41 AM, Matt Grise m...@afpsprink.com wrote:


Looking at NFPA 13, 2010 Ch3.3.2 [Bathroom], the section reads: Within a dwelling 
unit, any room or compartment...

What about rooms with toilets that are not within a dwelling unit? For instance 
a bathroom in an office or warehouse. Are they officially called something else?

Matt Grisé PE*, LEED AP, NICET II
Sales Engineer
Alliance Fire Protection
130 w 9th Ave.
North Kansas City, MO 64116

*Licensed in KS  MO

913.888.0647 ph
913.888.0618 f
913.927.0222 cell
www. AFPsprink.com

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Re: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Greg McGahan]

For this project you the 3rd floor is split in thirds: The middle third 
is an actual floor with 2 stairwells and an elevator with exposed roof 
trusses. One each end of the building there is a door leading to the 
other 2 thirds of the space. The floor level is consistent but the roof 
drops 10' or so which forms the rooms I am talking about.


I think I was correct in my opinion that it is not a CCS and therefore 
it should not have to comply with those rules.


Thanks,
Greg

On 1/20/2011 3:52 PM, Thom wrote:

The difference I see is that an Attic is between the ceiling of one floor
and the roof. Where-as what we were presented with is a concrete floor and
an exposed roof structure, which the code not the Arch. Calls a story.

Arch. Are famous for calling things on the drawing one thing while the code
requires them to be protected as something else entirely.
I especially like when in a warehouse the put Future Office with dotted
lines, and want to know why the OH system must go over their LH office area.

The other point I'd make, in ref. to the LH vs. OH space is anything with a
concrete floor and a door will eventually become storage. An attic is
allowed to be LH because it is not Easy or convenient to store stuff in
it. The area as described sound both easily accessible and convenient to
access thru the door.

The Attic theory could apply IF the concrete floor is the ceiling of a
floor below, and doesn't have the means of access required to be considered
a Mezz. Or floor by the building code. That door must come from somewhere,
is that another Floor?? So this would just be an extension of that floor?
As far as what does combustible vs. non-combustible have to do with whether
or not it's an attic? Nothing. Warehouses can be combustible construction.
We often see Arch. Calling a Mechanical Mezz. With enclosed stairwells,
rated doors, bathrooms and everything needed to be a floor Attic's Just
because they Mislabeled it doesn't mean we'll be allowed to treat it as an
attic. Or not install a standpipe. We may have a good case to get a CO to do
it, but the building officials or FM will still say if it's and attic or
Mech. Mezz and 4th floor Or Floor 30'-0 or more above the lowest level of
FDP access.

Now it's only worth 1/2 a farthing.

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ronl.Fletcher
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:51 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

I know that if it is combustible and the FP System is per NFPA #13 the hair
we are splitting is if it is LH or OH but, wouldn't whether it is considered
a story or not be something decided by the architect and the local building
department? If the plans call it an attic or don't call it anything at all
and it's not calculated as part of the total square feet of the building
then it should be an attic. By calling the attic a an occupied space a three
story building with an accessible attic would be 4 stories and require a
standpipe system.


Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ



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--
Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road 
Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852

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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Ronl . Fletcher]

They weren't unsure at all, they were positive they didn't want to pay for 
sprinklers in the attic and I was sure we didn't want to put them in for free. 
I don't think any architect consults NFPA Standards to see how to design a 
project. They complied with the building code so their job was done.

I'm still curious if the egress rules apply to an unused attic if it has a man 
door for access and the ceiling construction happens to be something that can 
be walked on like concrete planks. If IBC defines it as a story or floor then 
why don't they need exiting? I'm pretty sure a 300 ft long dead end area would 
not meet the egress requirements.


Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:35 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

Wallpapering the file never stopped a determined law suit, It just helps
slow it down.
CYA, and I hope you made sure the GC knew it's supposed to be Him  the
Arch. That knows the building code, your just raising the question in
writing, please reply in same with specific code sections that apply. (They
are the Professionals) (If they're unsure, isn't that when they're
supposed to get off some of that fee, and hire a FPE???)


So let's split the frog hair one more time. 
We went on record about it being labeled attic not storage and not a floor
according to the permitted plans. I hope they never have a fire.  


Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ

 


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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Thom]

I believe that they must still meet the exit distance requirements in IBC
2009 Table 1016.1, just as they must meet Illumination, smoke detection and
Exit sign requirements.

Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE


I'm still curious if the egress rules apply to an unused attic if it has a
man door for access and the ceiling construction happens to be something
that can be walked on like concrete planks. If IBC defines it as a story or
floor then why don't they need exiting? I'm pretty sure a 300 ft long dead
end area would not meet the egress requirements.


Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ



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Re: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[william . till]

Sent from my BlackBerry


- Original Message -
From: Greg McGahan [g...@livingwaterfp.com]
Sent: 01/19/2011 09:19 PM CST
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE



Is a large are with a concrete floor, exposed roof trusses with a door 
for access so the area can be utilized as a room (for storage 
presumably), considered a room or a combustible concealed space?


Peak height 10-0 and eaves go to zero.
Thanks for quick answers,
Greg
--
Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road 
Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852

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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Cliff Whitfield]

Greg,

I believe there is a definite difference in a combustible concealed space
and what you have described here.  I would consider this an attic or a
storage room but not a CCS.

Cliff

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 9:19 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

Is a large are with a concrete floor, exposed roof trusses with a door 
for access so the area can be utilized as a room (for storage 
presumably), considered a room or a combustible concealed space?

Peak height 10-0 and eaves go to zero.
Thanks for quick answers,
Greg
-- 
Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road 
Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852
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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Craig.Prahl]

I would consider that a room or attic as well.  I sure wouldn't consider it a 
concealed space when it's accessible and has potential for storage.

Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection 
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension  74102
craig.pr...@ch2m.com



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 10:19 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

Is a large are with a concrete floor, exposed roof trusses with a door 
for access so the area can be utilized as a room (for storage 
presumably), considered a room or a combustible concealed space?

Peak height 10-0 and eaves go to zero.
Thanks for quick answers,
Greg
-- 
Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road 
Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852
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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Richard Carr]

You will not be able to use attic heads in the area because of the
floor.

Richard Carr, SET
Design Manager
Associated Sprinkler Co., LLC
336.373.3901 ext 217
richa...@associatedsprinkler.com



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Cliff
Whitfield
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 7:52 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

Greg,

I believe there is a definite difference in a combustible concealed
space
and what you have described here.  I would consider this an attic or a
storage room but not a CCS.

Cliff

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 9:19 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

Is a large are with a concrete floor, exposed roof trusses with a door 
for access so the area can be utilized as a room (for storage 
presumably), considered a room or a combustible concealed space?

Peak height 10-0 and eaves go to zero.
Thanks for quick answers,
Greg
-- 
Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road 
Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852
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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Ronl . Fletcher]

Depends if it is NFPA #13 or #13R. If the space is intended to be used for 
storage it's easy to classify. If it's 13R and not intended for storage they 
should do something to prevent storage from being placed in the attic.


Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 8:19 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

Is a large are with a concrete floor, exposed roof trusses with a door 
for access so the area can be utilized as a room (for storage 
presumably), considered a room or a combustible concealed space?

Peak height 10-0 and eaves go to zero.
Thanks for quick answers,
Greg
-- 
Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road 
Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852
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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Matthew J. Willis]

I would caution against using the term attic as it IS a type of CCS, with
its own rules...

R/
Matt

 

 

Matthew J. Willis, CET
Automatic Fire Sprinklers
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-816-1087 Mobile
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire.com

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-
 boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 7:09 AM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE
 
 I would consider that a room or attic as well.  I sure wouldn't consider
 it a concealed space when it's accessible and has potential for
 storage.
 
 Craig L. Prahl, CET
 Fire Protection
 CH2MHILL
 Lockwood Greene
 1500 International Drive
 Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
 Direct - 864.599.4102
 Fax - 864.599.8439
 CH2MHILL Extension  74102
 craig.pr...@ch2m.com
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-
 boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan
 Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 10:19 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE
 
 Is a large are with a concrete floor, exposed roof trusses with a door
 for access so the area can be utilized as a room (for storage
 presumably), considered a room or a combustible concealed space?
 
 Peak height 10-0 and eaves go to zero.
 Thanks for quick answers,
 Greg
 --
 Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road
 Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852
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 No virus found in this incoming message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3375 - Release Date: 01/19/11
 13:34:00

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Re: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Greg McGahan]

They only issue was whether or not heads had to be within 12 of the 
peak , or 36 and the deciding factor is soley if it is a CCS - I voted 
no and submitted as such.



On 1/20/2011 8:23 AM, Matthew J. Willis wrote:

I would caution against using the term attic as it IS a type of CCS, with
its own rules...

R/
Matt





Matthew J. Willis, CET
Automatic Fire Sprinklers
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-816-1087 Mobile
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire.com


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-
boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 7:09 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

I would consider that a room or attic as well.  I sure wouldn't consider
it a concealed space when it's accessible and has potential for
storage.

Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
CH2MHILL Extension  74102
craig.pr...@ch2m.com



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-
boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 10:19 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

Is a large are with a concrete floor, exposed roof trusses with a door
for access so the area can be utilized as a room (for storage
presumably), considered a room or a combustible concealed space?

Peak height 10-0 and eaves go to zero.
Thanks for quick answers,
Greg
--
Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road
Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3375 - Release Date: 01/19/11
13:34:00

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--
Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road 
Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852

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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Thom]

The space you describe meets the definition of a Story as described in
Chapter 2 of the IBC 2009. Additionally, 302.1 of IBC 2009 say's A room or
space intended to be occupied at different times  
With a door, how can it be a concealed space. Even a locked door does not
create a concealed space, just one with limited access. The fact that the
roof goes to 0'-0 at the eaves, only means that there is not true wall,
similar to the ever popular A-frame.

I say you've got a Room, determine the occupancy and provide appropriate
protection as required by the applicable standard.

My farthing's worth.


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 8:19 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

Is a large are with a concrete floor, exposed roof trusses with a door 
for access so the area can be utilized as a room (for storage 
presumably), considered a room or a combustible concealed space?

Peak height 10-0 and eaves go to zero.
Thanks for quick answers,
Greg
-- 
Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road 
Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852
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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Ronl . Fletcher]

I know that if it is combustible and the FP System is per NFPA #13 the hair we 
are splitting is if it is LH or OH but, wouldn't whether it is considered a 
story or not be something decided by the architect and the local building 
department? If the plans call it an attic or don't call it anything at all and 
it's not calculated as part of the total square feet of the building then it 
should be an attic. By calling the attic a an occupied space a three story 
building with an accessible attic would be 4 stories and require a standpipe 
system.


Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 9:54 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

The space you describe meets the definition of a Story as described in
Chapter 2 of the IBC 2009. Additionally, 302.1 of IBC 2009 say's A room or
space intended to be occupied at different times  
With a door, how can it be a concealed space. Even a locked door does not
create a concealed space, just one with limited access. The fact that the
roof goes to 0'-0 at the eaves, only means that there is not true wall,
similar to the ever popular A-frame.

I say you've got a Room, determine the occupancy and provide appropriate
protection as required by the applicable standard.

My farthing's worth.


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Greg McGahan
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 8:19 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

Is a large are with a concrete floor, exposed roof trusses with a door 
for access so the area can be utilized as a room (for storage 
presumably), considered a room or a combustible concealed space?

Peak height 10-0 and eaves go to zero.
Thanks for quick answers,
Greg
-- 
Greg C. McGahan Living Water Fire Protection, LLC. 1160 McKenzie Road 
Cantonment, FL 32533 850-937-1850 Fax 850-937-1852
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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Thom]

The difference I see is that an Attic is between the ceiling of one floor
and the roof. Where-as what we were presented with is a concrete floor and
an exposed roof structure, which the code not the Arch. Calls a story. 

Arch. Are famous for calling things on the drawing one thing while the code
requires them to be protected as something else entirely.
I especially like when in a warehouse the put Future Office with dotted
lines, and want to know why the OH system must go over their LH office area.

The other point I'd make, in ref. to the LH vs. OH space is anything with a
concrete floor and a door will eventually become storage. An attic is
allowed to be LH because it is not Easy or convenient to store stuff in
it. The area as described sound both easily accessible and convenient to
access thru the door.

The Attic theory could apply IF the concrete floor is the ceiling of a
floor below, and doesn't have the means of access required to be considered
a Mezz. Or floor by the building code. That door must come from somewhere,
is that another Floor?? So this would just be an extension of that floor?
As far as what does combustible vs. non-combustible have to do with whether
or not it's an attic? Nothing. Warehouses can be combustible construction.
We often see Arch. Calling a Mechanical Mezz. With enclosed stairwells,
rated doors, bathrooms and everything needed to be a floor Attic's Just
because they Mislabeled it doesn't mean we'll be allowed to treat it as an
attic. Or not install a standpipe. We may have a good case to get a CO to do
it, but the building officials or FM will still say if it's and attic or
Mech. Mezz and 4th floor Or Floor 30'-0 or more above the lowest level of
FDP access.

Now it's only worth 1/2 a farthing.

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ronl.Fletcher
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:51 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

I know that if it is combustible and the FP System is per NFPA #13 the hair
we are splitting is if it is LH or OH but, wouldn't whether it is considered
a story or not be something decided by the architect and the local building
department? If the plans call it an attic or don't call it anything at all
and it's not calculated as part of the total square feet of the building
then it should be an attic. By calling the attic a an occupied space a three
story building with an accessible attic would be 4 stories and require a
standpipe system.


Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ



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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Ronl . Fletcher]

So let's split the frog hair one more time. If the attic is another floor of 
the building because it has a door and a floor do the egress rules apply? 
Should the sprinkler contractor tell the GC that he has to add an exit to 
outside or another stair because it should really be considered a floor, not an 
attic as the labeled on the permitted plans? I buy the need for sprinklers 
because it's accessible for storage but I don't agree that it is by IBC rule 
another story of the building.

Some years ago we did a three floor extended care facility. The floors were 
concrete plank as was the ceiling of the top floor. The construction was none 
combustible. The only door to the attic was on a 2nd floor mezzanine in the 
neighboring 2 story wing of the building. The attic was at least 20 ft. high 50 
ft wide, over 300 ft long and the roof sloped from the peak all the way to the 
floor. There were no lights and no duct just wide open space. We gave the GC a 
price to add sprinklers he said that if they were required we would have to put 
them in for free. The space does not have sprinklers. We went on record about 
it being labeled attic not storage and not a floor according to the permitted 
plans. I hope they never have a fire.  


Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ

 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

The difference I see is that an Attic is between the ceiling of one floor
and the roof. Where-as what we were presented with is a concrete floor and
an exposed roof structure, which the code not the Arch. Calls a story. 

Arch. Are famous for calling things on the drawing one thing while the code
requires them to be protected as something else entirely.
I especially like when in a warehouse the put Future Office with dotted
lines, and want to know why the OH system must go over their LH office area.

The other point I'd make, in ref. to the LH vs. OH space is anything with a
concrete floor and a door will eventually become storage. An attic is
allowed to be LH because it is not Easy or convenient to store stuff in
it. The area as described sound both easily accessible and convenient to
access thru the door.

The Attic theory could apply IF the concrete floor is the ceiling of a
floor below, and doesn't have the means of access required to be considered
a Mezz. Or floor by the building code. That door must come from somewhere,
is that another Floor?? So this would just be an extension of that floor?
As far as what does combustible vs. non-combustible have to do with whether
or not it's an attic? Nothing. Warehouses can be combustible construction.
We often see Arch. Calling a Mechanical Mezz. With enclosed stairwells,
rated doors, bathrooms and everything needed to be a floor Attic's Just
because they Mislabeled it doesn't mean we'll be allowed to treat it as an
attic. Or not install a standpipe. We may have a good case to get a CO to do
it, but the building officials or FM will still say if it's and attic or
Mech. Mezz and 4th floor Or Floor 30'-0 or more above the lowest level of
FDP access.

Now it's only worth 1/2 a farthing.

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ronl.Fletcher
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:51 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

I know that if it is combustible and the FP System is per NFPA #13 the hair
we are splitting is if it is LH or OH but, wouldn't whether it is considered
a story or not be something decided by the architect and the local building
department? If the plans call it an attic or don't call it anything at all
and it's not calculated as part of the total square feet of the building
then it should be an attic. By calling the attic a an occupied space a three
story building with an accessible attic would be 4 stories and require a
standpipe system.


Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ



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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Thom]

Wallpapering the file never stopped a determined law suit, It just helps
slow it down.
CYA, and I hope you made sure the GC knew it's supposed to be Him  the
Arch. That knows the building code, your just raising the question in
writing, please reply in same with specific code sections that apply. (They
are the Professionals) (If they're unsure, isn't that when they're
supposed to get off some of that fee, and hire a FPE???)


So let's split the frog hair one more time. 
We went on record about it being labeled attic not storage and not a floor
according to the permitted plans. I hope they never have a fire.  


Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ

 


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RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

[Jim Davidson]

Ron,

The building was possibility built using NFPA 101, Paragraph 18.1.6.5 Any 
building of Type I(442), Type I(332), Type II(222), or Type II(111) 
construction shall be permitted to include roofing systems involving 
combustible supports, decking, or roofing, provided that the following criteria 
are met:

(1) The roof covering shall meet Class A requirements in accordance with 
NFPA 256, Standard Methods of Fire Tests of Roof Coverings.
(2) The roof shall be separated from all occupied portions of the building 
by a noncombustible floor assembly having not less than a 2-hour fire 
resistance rating that includes not less than 2½ in. (63 mm) of concrete or 
gypsum fill.
(3) The structural elements supporting the 2-hour fire resistance-rated 
floor assembly specified in 18.1.6.5(2) shall be required to have only the fire 
resistance rating required of the building.
   

We usually try to convince the Owner that providing automatic sprinkler 
protection for the attic would allow for an orderly evacuation of the patients 
since the sprinkler will usually control an fire from within the attic, and an 
non-sprinklered attic would usually require the complete evacuation of the 
floor below the attic, which requires more manpower and emergency response 
personal.
  

Jim Davidson 
 
Davidson Associates 
Fire Protection * Medical Gas * Code Consulting  
302-994-9500   Fax:302-234-1781



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ronl.Fletcher
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:16 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

So let's split the frog hair one more time. If the attic is another floor of 
the building because it has a door and a floor do the egress rules apply? 
Should the sprinkler contractor tell the GC that he has to add an exit to 
outside or another stair because it should really be considered a floor, not an 
attic as the labeled on the permitted plans? I buy the need for sprinklers 
because it's accessible for storage but I don't agree that it is by IBC rule 
another story of the building.

Some years ago we did a three floor extended care facility. The floors were 
concrete plank as was the ceiling of the top floor. The construction was none 
combustible. The only door to the attic was on a 2nd floor mezzanine in the 
neighboring 2 story wing of the building. The attic was at least 20 ft. high 50 
ft wide, over 300 ft long and the roof sloped from the peak all the way to the 
floor. There were no lights and no duct just wide open space. We gave the GC a 
price to add sprinklers he said that if they were required we would have to put 
them in for free. The space does not have sprinklers. We went on record about 
it being labeled attic not storage and not a floor according to the permitted 
plans. I hope they never have a fire.  


Ron Fletcher
Aero Automatic
Phoenix, AZ

 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Thom
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 2:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: DEFINITION OF A CONCEALED SPACE

The difference I see is that an Attic is between the ceiling of one floor
and the roof. Where-as what we were presented with is a concrete floor and
an exposed roof structure, which the code not the Arch. Calls a story. 

Arch. Are famous for calling things on the drawing one thing while the code
requires them to be protected as something else entirely.
I especially like when in a warehouse the put Future Office with dotted
lines, and want to know why the OH system must go over their LH office area.

The other point I'd make, in ref. to the LH vs. OH space is anything with a
concrete floor and a door will eventually become storage. An attic is
allowed to be LH because it is not Easy or convenient to store stuff in
it. The area as described sound both easily accessible and convenient to
access thru the door.

The Attic theory could apply IF the concrete floor is the ceiling of a
floor below, and doesn't have the means of access required to be considered
a Mezz. Or floor by the building code. That door must come from somewhere,
is that another Floor?? So this would just be an extension of that floor?
As far as what does combustible vs. non-combustible have to do with whether
or not it's an attic? Nothing. Warehouses can be combustible construction.
We often see Arch. Calling a Mechanical Mezz. With enclosed stairwells,
rated doors, bathrooms and everything needed to be a floor Attic's Just
because they Mislabeled it doesn't mean we'll be allowed to treat it as an
attic

RE: Definition

[Craig.Prahl]

Not necessarily.  Ball Valves and butterfly valves can be considered indicating 
valves due to the fact that either by the position of the handle or the flag on 
the actuator, their position can be determined.


Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Karen Purvis
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:39 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition

Can anyone give me a definition of indicating shut-off valve. My guess is 
that it is an OS  Y but don't know.

 

Karen Purvis

Senior Designer

Facility Systems Consultants

713 South Central Street,

Suite 101

Knoxville, TN 37902

ph.865-246-0164

fax 865-246-1084

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RE: Definition

[Rod DiBona]

Any valve that has an indicating device where you can tell if it is open or 
closed by looking. OSY would be one as with others.

Rod DiBona
Rapid Fire

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Karen Purvis
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 1:39 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition

Can anyone give me a definition of indicating shut-off valve. My guess is
that it is an OS  Y but don't know.

 

Karen Purvis

Senior Designer

Facility Systems Consultants

713 South Central Street,

Suite 101

Knoxville, TN 37902

ph.865-246-0164

fax 865-246-1084

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RE: Definition

[Jim Kettler]

An OSY is one type of indicating valve. A Post Indicating Valve (PIV) would 
also fall into that category. It wouldn't HAVE to specifically be an Outside 
Stem/Screw and Yoke valve.

The indicating portion would be signage as part of the valve showing OPEN or 
SHUT/CLOSED or some other means to clearly show the valve position.

Not sure if that answered the question though!



James M. Kettler, EFO, CFPS
Director of Building and Codes/Fire Marshal
Buckingham Township
PO Box 413
4613 Hughesian Drive
Buckingham, PA   18912
215-794-8836
www.buckinghampa.org




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Karen Purvis
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:39 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition

Can anyone give me a definition of indicating shut-off valve. My guess is
that it is an OS  Y but don't know.



Karen Purvis

Senior Designer

Facility Systems Consultants

713 South Central Street,

Suite 101

Knoxville, TN 37902

ph.865-246-0164

fax 865-246-1084

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RE: Definition

[Karen Purvis]

Yes this answered the question, which of course was the answer I thought but
was prompted to ask anyway. Thanks all.

Karen Purvis
Senior Designer
Facility Systems Consultants
713 South Central Street,
Suite 101
Knoxville, TN 37902
ph.865-246-0164
fax 865-246-1084
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jim Kettler
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:54 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition

An OSY is one type of indicating valve. A Post Indicating Valve (PIV) would
also fall into that category. It wouldn't HAVE to specifically be an Outside
Stem/Screw and Yoke valve.

The indicating portion would be signage as part of the valve showing OPEN
or SHUT/CLOSED or some other means to clearly show the valve position.

Not sure if that answered the question though!



James M. Kettler, EFO, CFPS
Director of Building and Codes/Fire Marshal
Buckingham Township
PO Box 413
4613 Hughesian Drive
Buckingham, PA   18912
215-794-8836
www.buckinghampa.org




-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Karen Purvis
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:39 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition

Can anyone give me a definition of indicating shut-off valve. My guess is
that it is an OS  Y but don't know.



Karen Purvis

Senior Designer

Facility Systems Consultants

713 South Central Street,

Suite 101

Knoxville, TN 37902

ph.865-246-0164

fax 865-246-1084

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RE: Definition

[Ken Holsopple (forum)]

Mr. Cahill wrote:

A ball valve
may very well indicate its position but I don't think they are any Listed as
a fire sprinkler control valve. I think the 5 second rule is what eliminates
them from the Listed variety of a generic indicating valve.

For the most part you are correct, but Victaulic does make a listed ball
valve that is slow close and indicating. It's a model #728.
There may be others. Obviously this is not the run of the mill ball valve in
discussion, but they do exist.

http://www.victaulic.com/Docs/lit/10.17.pdf

Best Regards,
Ken Holsopple
Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc.




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RE: Definition

[Chris Cahill]

Good to know, thanks.

Chris 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ken Holsopple
(forum)
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:17 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition

Mr. Cahill wrote:

A ball valve
may very well indicate its position but I don't think they are any Listed as
a fire sprinkler control valve. I think the 5 second rule is what eliminates
them from the Listed variety of a generic indicating valve.

For the most part you are correct, but Victaulic does make a listed ball
valve that is slow close and indicating. It's a model #728.
There may be others. Obviously this is not the run of the mill ball valve in
discussion, but they do exist.

http://www.victaulic.com/Docs/lit/10.17.pdf

Best Regards,
Ken Holsopple
Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc.




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RE: Definition

[George Church]

Or the Milwaukee butterball dating back to the 80's

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:13 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition

Good to know, thanks.

Chris 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ken Holsopple
(forum)
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:17 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition

Mr. Cahill wrote:

A ball valve
may very well indicate its position but I don't think they are any Listed as
a fire sprinkler control valve. I think the 5 second rule is what eliminates
them from the Listed variety of a generic indicating valve.

For the most part you are correct, but Victaulic does make a listed ball
valve that is slow close and indicating. It's a model #728.
There may be others. Obviously this is not the run of the mill ball valve in
discussion, but they do exist.

http://www.victaulic.com/Docs/lit/10.17.pdf

Best Regards,
Ken Holsopple
Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc.




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RE: Definition

[John Drucker]

What does Turkey have to do with it ? 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George
Church
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:45 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition

Or the Milwaukee butterball dating back to the 80's

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris
Cahill
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:13 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition

Good to know, thanks.

Chris 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ken
Holsopple
(forum)
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:17 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition

Mr. Cahill wrote:

A ball valve
may very well indicate its position but I don't think they are any
Listed as a fire sprinkler control valve. I think the 5 second rule is
what eliminates them from the Listed variety of a generic indicating
valve.

For the most part you are correct, but Victaulic does make a listed ball
valve that is slow close and indicating. It's a model #728.
There may be others. Obviously this is not the run of the mill ball
valve in discussion, but they do exist.

http://www.victaulic.com/Docs/lit/10.17.pdf

Best Regards,
Ken Holsopple
Rowe Sprinkler Systems, Inc.




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RE: Definition

[Chris Cahill]

Ok let me clarify my original statements.  I was referring to a lever
handled ball valve not being Listed but an indicating valve. I did indeed
forget about the ball inside the hybrid butterballs and now see the clone in
Victaulic's. (We use plenty of M. BB's so a swift KITA is warranted.) 

Hey if I use the hybrid butterball can I get green credits?  But then I
guess we're in trouble with PETA and the EU for hybrid foods.  Is it time to
go home yet? 

Chris 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:45 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition

Or the Milwaukee butterball dating back to the 80's


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RE: Definition

[Ken Holsopple (forum)]

Yep...but the Butterball has a disc. It's not a ball valve, but is a listed
indicating control valve. 

What do I win?

Best Regards,
Ken Holsopple

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:45 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition

Or the Milwaukee butterball dating back to the 80's



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Re: Definition

[Charles Thurston]

Hello Ken,

You WON Left over Christmas fruit cake.

Thursday, January 14, 2010, 5:00:11 PM, you wrote:

 Yep...but the Butterball has a disc. It's not a ball valve, but is a listed
 indicating control valve. 

 What do I win?

 Best Regards,
 Ken Holsopple

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church
 Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:45 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Definition

 Or the Milwaukee butterball dating back to the 80's



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-- 
Best regards,
 Charles Thurstonmailto:coastalf...@sc.rr.com
  Coastal Fire Protection/ Myrtle Beach Fire  Safety Co.
AFAA Guest

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RE: Definition

[Craig.Prahl]

I was referring to the ball valves such as the Vic 728's with the indicator 
flag. 


Craig L. Prahl, CET   
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
craig.pr...@ch2m.com
http://www.ch2m.com 


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:51 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition

Ok let me clarify my original statements.  I was referring to a lever handled 
ball valve not being Listed but an indicating valve. I did indeed forget about 
the ball inside the hybrid butterballs and now see the clone in Victaulic's. 
(We use plenty of M. BB's so a swift KITA is warranted.) 

Hey if I use the hybrid butterball can I get green credits?  But then I guess 
we're in trouble with PETA and the EU for hybrid foods.  Is it time to go home 
yet? 

Chris 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of George Church
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 3:45 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition

Or the Milwaukee butterball dating back to the 80's


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RE: Definition

[George Church]

Move East where its warmer and yes it IS time to go home now and Ken
will provide SKITA at no charge to the employee. We could use a nice PE to
kick around ;)

I checked my iPhone to see if it WAS warmer here tan there today (figured
you're about same as Fargo) and indeed, we're 39*F now. 

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:51 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition

Ok let me clarify my original statements.  I was referring to a lever
handled ball valve not being Listed but an indicating valve. I did indeed
forget about the ball inside the hybrid butterballs and now see the clone in
Victaulic's. (We use plenty of M. BB's so a swift KITA is warranted.) 

Hey if I use the hybrid butterball can I get green credits?  But then I
guess we're in trouble with PETA and the EU for hybrid foods.  Is it time to
go home yet? 

Chris 


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Re: Definition

[Ron Greenman]

It's been unseasonably warm here at the latitude 1 degree north of
Fargo getting into the fifties each day and staying in the mid
--forties at night. Turkey, by the way, since Craig asked, is a
country that occupies all of the Anatolian Peninsula, sometimes known
as Asia Minor but I don't know what it has to do with sprinklers
either. And yes it's time to go home even on the Left coast.

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 2:16 PM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote:
 Move East where its warmer and yes it IS time to go home now and Ken
 will provide SKITA at no charge to the employee. We could use a nice PE to
 kick around ;)

 I checked my iPhone to see if it WAS warmer here tan there today (figured
 you're about same as Fargo) and indeed, we're 39*F now.

 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
 [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
 Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:51 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: RE: Definition

 Ok let me clarify my original statements.  I was referring to a lever
 handled ball valve not being Listed but an indicating valve. I did indeed
 forget about the ball inside the hybrid butterballs and now see the clone in
 Victaulic's. (We use plenty of M. BB's so a swift KITA is warranted.)

 Hey if I use the hybrid butterball can I get green credits?  But then I
 guess we're in trouble with PETA and the EU for hybrid foods.  Is it time to
 go home yet?

 Chris


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-- 
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering
Bates Technical College
Tacoma, WA

Member:
SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM
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Re: Definition

[Todd Williams]

You can't all leave yet, I just got here! The Butterball is an 
indicating turkey that pops up when done. If ignored, it could 
potentially set off the residential sprinkler system (in PA).




At 05:43 PM 1/14/2010, you wrote:
It's been unseasonably warm here at the latitude 1 degree north of
Fargo getting into the fifties each day and staying in the mid
--forties at night. Turkey, by the way, since Craig asked, is a
country that occupies all of the Anatolian Peninsula, sometimes known
as Asia Minor but I don't know what it has to do with sprinklers
either. And yes it's time to go home even on the Left coast.

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 2:16 PM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote:
  Move East where its warmer and yes it IS time to go home now and Ken
  will provide SKITA at no charge to the employee. We could use a nice PE to
  kick around ;)
 
  I checked my iPhone to see if it WAS warmer here tan there today (figured
  you're about same as Fargo) and indeed, we're 39*F now.
 
  -Original Message-
  From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
  [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
  Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:51 PM
  To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
  Subject: RE: Definition
 
  Ok let me clarify my original statements.  I was referring to a lever
  handled ball valve not being Listed but an indicating valve. I did indeed
  forget about the ball inside the hybrid butterballs and now see 
 the clone in
  Victaulic's. (We use plenty of M. BB's so a swift KITA is warranted.)
 
  Hey if I use the hybrid butterball can I get green credits?  But then I
  guess we're in trouble with PETA and the EU for hybrid foods.  Is 
 it time to
  go home yet?
 
  Chris
 
 
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--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering
Bates Technical College
Tacoma, WA

Member:
SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM
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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
www.fpdc.com
860.535.2080  
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Re: Definition

[Ron Greenman]

Only if it gets smokey.

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 3:04 PM, Todd Williams t...@fpdc.com wrote:
 You can't all leave yet, I just got here! The Butterball is an
 indicating turkey that pops up when done. If ignored, it could
 potentially set off the residential sprinkler system (in PA).




 At 05:43 PM 1/14/2010, you wrote:
It's been unseasonably warm here at the latitude 1 degree north of
Fargo getting into the fifties each day and staying in the mid
--forties at night. Turkey, by the way, since Craig asked, is a
country that occupies all of the Anatolian Peninsula, sometimes known
as Asia Minor but I don't know what it has to do with sprinklers
either. And yes it's time to go home even on the Left coast.

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 2:16 PM, George Church for...@ptd.net wrote:
  Move East where its warmer and yes it IS time to go home now and Ken
  will provide SKITA at no charge to the employee. We could use a nice PE to
  kick around ;)
 
  I checked my iPhone to see if it WAS warmer here tan there today (figured
  you're about same as Fargo) and indeed, we're 39*F now.
 
  -Original Message-
  From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
  [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill
  Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 4:51 PM
  To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
  Subject: RE: Definition
 
  Ok let me clarify my original statements.  I was referring to a lever
  handled ball valve not being Listed but an indicating valve. I did indeed
  forget about the ball inside the hybrid butterballs and now see
 the clone in
  Victaulic's. (We use plenty of M. BB's so a swift KITA is warranted.)
 
  Hey if I use the hybrid butterball can I get green credits?  But then I
  guess we're in trouble with PETA and the EU for hybrid foods.  Is
 it time to
  go home yet?
 
  Chris
 
 
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  http://fireball.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
 
  For Technical Assistance, send an email to: supp...@firesprinkler.org
 
  To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org
  (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
 



--
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering
Bates Technical College
Tacoma, WA

Member:
SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM
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 Todd G. Williams, PE
 Fire Protection Design/Consulting
 Stonington, Connecticut
 www.fpdc.com
 860.535.2080
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-- 
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering
Bates Technical College
Tacoma, WA

Member:
SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM
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RE: Definition

[Thom McMahon]

Speaking OF residential sprinkler systems in PA or anywhere else for that
matter, the 5 sec. slow close is code specific. You won't find it in 13D
because a ball valve is not required to be listed for 13D, but still can
indicate.

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926




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Re: Definition

[Ron Greenman]

And a ball valve that's part of a listed assembly, even if you would
otherwise need a slow close valve like for a main drain, is OK.

On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Thom McMahon tmcma...@firetechinc.com wrote:
 Speaking OF residential sprinkler systems in PA or anywhere else for that
 matter, the 5 sec. slow close is code specific. You won't find it in 13D
 because a ball valve is not required to be listed for 13D, but still can
 indicate.

 Thom McMahon, SET
 Firetech, Inc.
 2560 Copper Ridge Dr
 P.O. Box 882136
 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
 Tel:  970-879-7952
 Fax: 970-879-7926




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-- 
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering
Bates Technical College
Tacoma, WA

Member:
SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA, WSAFM
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RE: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

[George Church]

It's a stretch to think we're going to have self-closers on bathroom
doors.

glc

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Roland
Huggins
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 6:34 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

That's the attitude I follow.  We went through some of this back  
around the 02 ed when it was unclear as to whether the bathroom needs  
a door.  Since we are talking about omitting sprinklers, our position  
WAS that a door is needed, the TC said otherwise.  It pretty much just  
said a compartment.  Then the changes to the definition in NFPA 13 on  
compartment entered the fray (for which a slightly modified version  
was accepted at the ROP Meeting).  Attempting to literally apply the  
definition on the lintel when we are talking about having omitted  
protection (in other words, what you said).

As with all gray issues, discussions with the AHJ before locking in a  
bid is a must.

Roland

On Aug 10, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Justin Reid wrote:

 The delay is dependent on which side of the door the fire is on, the
 sprinklered side or the non-sprinklered side. If the fire is on the
 sprinklered side, then the fire is in the protected area. If the  
 fire is in
 the bathroom on the non-sprinklered side, then the 8 inch lintel  
 will delay
 the heat from reaching a head on the sprinklered side. So, it sounds  
 like no
 lintel is better in this case;)
 I think the intent of the 36 inch width versus lintel is for two  
 sprinklered
 areas connected by an opening (which does not necessarily have a  
 door on
 it). And I think the intent of leaving the head out of a small  
 bathroom is
 that fires usually do not happen there and if they do, there is a  
 very small
 amount of combustibles. I don't think a burning toilet paper roll  
 would even
 set a head off.

 This seems open to interpretation. I can see where one would be  
 coming from
 using the opening requirements from the other sections. On the other  
 hand,
 it is still a bathroom and is exempt by chapter 8.

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Re: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

[Dave Phelan]

In the event that bathroom situation crossed my desk I'd have to go with the
lack of the 8 inch lintel as meaning the 'space with a toilet' is actually
part and parcel to the adjoining space for purposes of number of design
heads.  We are calling it a room when it is really about the 'compartment'.
The presence or absence of a door is irrelevant as the definition of the
compartment for design area relies on walls for boundaries.  Openings in
those walls are unlimited in width provided a minimum 8 inch lintel is
provided.  The lintel is essentially the containment for the heat plume to
prevent activation of heads remote from the fire which would deplete the
water supply.  Testing for residential listing on heads includes a 'dummy'
head on the bottom of the lintel as a measure of whether heats leaves the
compartment.  If the heat fuses then the operating heads do not provide
containment the test is failed.

Was this the question or was it more about can the lintel-less space with a
toilet still be considered exempt at less than 55 ft2 ?

Dave P.
A NJ AHJ





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Re: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

[Sprinkler Forum]

Residential highrise. The door goes full height (maybe half inch  
clearance on the top). The frame is recessed in the hard lid ceiling.

Your take is that without the lintel, the bathroom is part of the  
larger bathroom it is connected to and since the aggregate of that  
area is over 55 sf that the head must be included. In the small  
bathroom.

But, do you agree that the 8 inch lintel is a detriment if you  
consider a fire in the bathroom?

Since we should not even consider a fire in the bathroom( low  
probability, size etc. ) then the question is... does the absence of  
the lintel hinder the activation of heads when we consider a fire in  
the adjoining space? This could be due to the additional volume of the  
55sf bathroom needing to fill and may slightly delay the operation of  
the heads in the sprinklered space. I would guess that due to the  
small volume of the non-sprinklered space that the delay would be small.

I think I will have to do some fire modeling to make this point to our  
inspector. I will share the results when complete.

Thanks for all of the input.

Justin D. Reid, P.E.
RLH Fire Protection
16735 Saticoy St. #110
Van Nuys, CA 91406
213-798-0251

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 11, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Dave Phelan nomore...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Sorry - meant to add one other item 

 Not knowing the occupancy of the building but sounds like  
 residential - the
 bathroom exception applies within the dwelling unit.  Does this  
 lintel-less
 space open into a public corridor or public area?  Wouldn't we be
 suppressing this public bathroom then anyway ?

 If it is single family 13D type system then I might be more inclined  
 to
 allow the head to be omitted under the 55Ft2 rule - is there some  
 technical
 difficulty with providing a lintel - even decorative- anyway?  I can't
 imagine this door is a full height frameless clear glass door but  
 then again
 I don't know much about architecture !!



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Re: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

[Ron Greenman]

Justin,

Once again it's the rules. Less than 55 sqft no head, more than 55
sqft then a head. Separate a compartment (don't worry about what rooms
are called, worry about there function--I can call a 50 sqft walk-in
closet a bathroom but with closet poles and no bathroom fixtures it's
ain't a bathroom) with an 8 lintel and it's two compartments. If the
compartment happens to be a 56 sqft bathroom then it becomes two
bathrooms less than 55 sqft. Separate it with a full height door and
it doesn't. Now about the engineering Prescriptive codes are
compromises designed to cover the most common situations the most
often. I know you know this but we all get caught up in some
complexity far too often and forget that simple fact. Just a reminder
that the rules be the rules and that's all. Remember that it's illegal
to carry a concealed sword over six feet long in Seattle. 5'' 11 is
OK. Still doesn't make a lot of sense.

On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 12:46 PM, Sprinkler Forumjreidfo...@gmail.com wrote:
 Residential highrise. The door goes full height (maybe half inch
 clearance on the top). The frame is recessed in the hard lid ceiling.

 Your take is that without the lintel, the bathroom is part of the
 larger bathroom it is connected to and since the aggregate of that
 area is over 55 sf that the head must be included. In the small
 bathroom.

 But, do you agree that the 8 inch lintel is a detriment if you
 consider a fire in the bathroom?

 Since we should not even consider a fire in the bathroom( low
 probability, size etc. ) then the question is... does the absence of
 the lintel hinder the activation of heads when we consider a fire in
 the adjoining space? This could be due to the additional volume of the
 55sf bathroom needing to fill and may slightly delay the operation of
 the heads in the sprinklered space. I would guess that due to the
 small volume of the non-sprinklered space that the delay would be small.

 I think I will have to do some fire modeling to make this point to our
 inspector. I will share the results when complete.

 Thanks for all of the input.

 Justin D. Reid, P.E.
 RLH Fire Protection
 16735 Saticoy St. #110
 Van Nuys, CA 91406
 213-798-0251

 Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 11, 2009, at 10:33 AM, Dave Phelan nomore...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Sorry - meant to add one other item 

 Not knowing the occupancy of the building but sounds like
 residential - the
 bathroom exception applies within the dwelling unit.  Does this
 lintel-less
 space open into a public corridor or public area?  Wouldn't we be
 suppressing this public bathroom then anyway ?

 If it is single family 13D type system then I might be more inclined
 to
 allow the head to be omitted under the 55Ft2 rule - is there some
 technical
 difficulty with providing a lintel - even decorative- anyway?  I can't
 imagine this door is a full height frameless clear glass door but
 then again
 I don't know much about architecture !!



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-- 
Ron Greenman
Instructor
Fire Protection Engineering
Bates Technical College
Tacoma, WA

Member:
SFPE, ASCET, NFPA, AFSA, NFSA AFAA
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RE: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

[Greg McGahan]

In the past, we have always used the lintel as the deciding factor. 

Greg McGahan
Operations Manager

Living Water Fire Protection
1160 McKenzie Road
P.O. Box 877
Cantonment, Florida 32533
(850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231
g...@livingwaterfp.com


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org 
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Justin Reid
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 2:09 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

Section 3.3.3 gives the definition of a bathroom and distinguishes between a
room OR compartment. 8.14.8.1.1 does not require a head in a bathroom under
55 sf. 3.3.6 Compartment, and 3.3.20 Small Rooms - discuss the requirement
for an 8 inch lintel to distinguish them from other areas.
I have a room with a toilet in it that is under 55 sf and the sprinkler head
is omitted from the space. There is a door on this room that is full height
(i.e. no 8 inch lintel) and 38 inches wide. The door is not self closing.

It seems to me that the door makes this a room and does not need an 8 inch
lintel to distinguish it as a separate space (room). We have someone telling
us that it requires the 8 inch lintel or it needs a head in the bathroom.

Has anyone ran into a similar situation? I have looked for the definition of
a room and can not find anything so far. Does the door make it a room
regardless of whether it is self closing or full height?

Justin
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RE: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

[Richard Carr]

I don't think that no lintel makes it not a bathroom, the code clearly
mentions a bathroom as the occupancy, the lintel is used to separate
areas of larger rooms,ie living room and kitchen or living room and hall
way.

Richard Carr, SET
Design Manager
Associated Sprinkler Co., LLC
336.373.3901 ext 217
richa...@associatedsprinkler.com



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Justin
Reid
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 3:08 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

Section 3.3.3 gives the definition of a bathroom and distinguishes
between a
room OR compartment. 8.14.8.1.1 does not require a head in a bathroom
under
55 sf. 3.3.6 Compartment, and 3.3.20 Small Rooms - discuss the
requirement
for an 8 inch lintel to distinguish them from other areas.
I have a room with a toilet in it that is under 55 sf and the sprinkler
head
is omitted from the space. There is a door on this room that is full
height
(i.e. no 8 inch lintel) and 38 inches wide. The door is not self
closing.

It seems to me that the door makes this a room and does not need an 8
inch
lintel to distinguish it as a separate space (room). We have someone
telling
us that it requires the 8 inch lintel or it needs a head in the
bathroom.

Has anyone ran into a similar situation? I have looked for the
definition of
a room and can not find anything so far. Does the door make it a room
regardless of whether it is self closing or full height?

Justin
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Re: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

[Jim Zimmerman]

3.3.5 (NFPA 13, 2007) allows up to a 36 inch wide opening without a lintel.
Provided there are no other openings to adjoining spaces. The same allowance
applies for small rooms (3.3.15). The only definition you meet is bathroom,
however, with the wider door and no lintel I would say it needs a sprinkler.
Wouldn't the 8 inch lintel serve as a means to prevent/delay fire/smoke
spread across the ceiling? Being the door is not self closing there is a
chance that it could be open during the fire allowing the spread of
fire/smoke across the ceiling. If the door were self closing it may be
acceptable to an AHJ to not have the room be protected.

-Jim

On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com wrote:

 In the past, we have always used the lintel as the deciding factor.

 Greg McGahan
 Operations Manager

 Living Water Fire Protection
 1160 McKenzie Road
 P.O. Box 877
 Cantonment, Florida 32533
 (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231
 g...@livingwaterfp.com


 -Original Message-
 From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:
 sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Justin Reid
 Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 2:09 PM
 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
 Subject: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

 Section 3.3.3 gives the definition of a bathroom and distinguishes between
 a
 room OR compartment. 8.14.8.1.1 does not require a head in a bathroom under
 55 sf. 3.3.6 Compartment, and 3.3.20 Small Rooms - discuss the requirement
 for an 8 inch lintel to distinguish them from other areas.
 I have a room with a toilet in it that is under 55 sf and the sprinkler
 head
 is omitted from the space. There is a door on this room that is full height
 (i.e. no 8 inch lintel) and 38 inches wide. The door is not self closing.

 It seems to me that the door makes this a room and does not need an 8 inch
 lintel to distinguish it as a separate space (room). We have someone
 telling
 us that it requires the 8 inch lintel or it needs a head in the bathroom.

 Has anyone ran into a similar situation? I have looked for the definition
 of
 a room and can not find anything so far. Does the door make it a room
 regardless of whether it is self closing or full height?

 Justin
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Re: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

[Justin Reid]

The delay is dependent on which side of the door the fire is on, the
sprinklered side or the non-sprinklered side. If the fire is on the
sprinklered side, then the fire is in the protected area. If the fire is in
the bathroom on the non-sprinklered side, then the 8 inch lintel will delay
the heat from reaching a head on the sprinklered side. So, it sounds like no
lintel is better in this case;)
I think the intent of the 36 inch width versus lintel is for two sprinklered
areas connected by an opening (which does not necessarily have a door on
it). And I think the intent of leaving the head out of a small bathroom is
that fires usually do not happen there and if they do, there is a very small
amount of combustibles. I don't think a burning toilet paper roll would even
set a head off.

This seems open to interpretation. I can see where one would be coming from
using the opening requirements from the other sections. On the other hand,
it is still a bathroom and is exempt by chapter 8.

On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Jim Zimmerman zimm...@gmail.com wrote:

 3.3.5 (NFPA 13, 2007) allows up to a 36 inch wide opening without a lintel.
 Provided there are no other openings to adjoining spaces. The same
 allowance
 applies for small rooms (3.3.15). The only definition you meet is bathroom,
 however, with the wider door and no lintel I would say it needs a
 sprinkler.
 Wouldn't the 8 inch lintel serve as a means to prevent/delay fire/smoke
 spread across the ceiling? Being the door is not self closing there is a
 chance that it could be open during the fire allowing the spread of
 fire/smoke across the ceiling. If the door were self closing it may be
 acceptable to an AHJ to not have the room be protected.

 -Jim

 On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 2:17 PM, Greg McGahan g...@livingwaterfp.com
 wrote:

  In the past, we have always used the lintel as the deciding factor.
 
  Greg McGahan
  Operations Manager
 
  Living Water Fire Protection
  1160 McKenzie Road
  P.O. Box 877
  Cantonment, Florida 32533
  (850) 937.1850 | Fax (850) 937.1852 | Cell (850) 554.3231
  g...@livingwaterfp.com
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:
  sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Justin Reid
  Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 2:09 PM
  To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
  Subject: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel
 
  Section 3.3.3 gives the definition of a bathroom and distinguishes
 between
  a
  room OR compartment. 8.14.8.1.1 does not require a head in a bathroom
 under
  55 sf. 3.3.6 Compartment, and 3.3.20 Small Rooms - discuss the
 requirement
  for an 8 inch lintel to distinguish them from other areas.
  I have a room with a toilet in it that is under 55 sf and the sprinkler
  head
  is omitted from the space. There is a door on this room that is full
 height
  (i.e. no 8 inch lintel) and 38 inches wide. The door is not self closing.
 
  It seems to me that the door makes this a room and does not need an 8
 inch
  lintel to distinguish it as a separate space (room). We have someone
  telling
  us that it requires the 8 inch lintel or it needs a head in the bathroom.
 
  Has anyone ran into a similar situation? I have looked for the definition
  of
  a room and can not find anything so far. Does the door make it a room
  regardless of whether it is self closing or full height?
 
  Justin
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To 

Re: Definition of Bathroom vs 8 inch lintel

[Roland Huggins]

That's the attitude I follow.  We went through some of this back  
around the 02 ed when it was unclear as to whether the bathroom needs  
a door.  Since we are talking about omitting sprinklers, our position  
WAS that a door is needed, the TC said otherwise.  It pretty much just  
said a compartment.  Then the changes to the definition in NFPA 13 on  
compartment entered the fray (for which a slightly modified version  
was accepted at the ROP Meeting).  Attempting to literally apply the  
definition on the lintel when we are talking about having omitted  
protection (in other words, what you said).

As with all gray issues, discussions with the AHJ before locking in a  
bid is a must.

Roland

On Aug 10, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Justin Reid wrote:

 The delay is dependent on which side of the door the fire is on, the
 sprinklered side or the non-sprinklered side. If the fire is on the
 sprinklered side, then the fire is in the protected area. If the  
 fire is in
 the bathroom on the non-sprinklered side, then the 8 inch lintel  
 will delay
 the heat from reaching a head on the sprinklered side. So, it sounds  
 like no
 lintel is better in this case;)
 I think the intent of the 36 inch width versus lintel is for two  
 sprinklered
 areas connected by an opening (which does not necessarily have a  
 door on
 it). And I think the intent of leaving the head out of a small  
 bathroom is
 that fires usually do not happen there and if they do, there is a  
 very small
 amount of combustibles. I don't think a burning toilet paper roll  
 would even
 set a head off.

 This seems open to interpretation. I can see where one would be  
 coming from
 using the opening requirements from the other sections. On the other  
 hand,
 it is still a bathroom and is exempt by chapter 8.

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RE: Definition of Throughout

[John Drucker]

Here ya go Bob, 

Emphasis on EXCEPT in 2006 IBC 903.3.1.1. which refers to 903.3.1.1.1 as to
what is except.  Number 4 is what you are referring to however non
combustible contents is also a criteria.

2006 IBC 903.3.1.1 NFPA 13 sprinkler systems.
Where the provisions of this code require that a building or portion thereof
be equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with
this section, sprinklers shall be installed throughout in accordance with
NFPA 13 EXCEPT as provided in Section 903.3.1.1.1

903.3.1.1.1 Exempt locations.
Automatic sprinklers shall not be required in the following rooms or areas
where such rooms or areas are protected with an approved automatic fire
detection system, in accordance with Section 907.2, that will respond to
visible or invisible particles of combustion. Sprinklers shall not be
omitted from any room merely because it is damp, of fire-resistance-rated
construction or contains electrical equipment.
1.  Any room where the application of water, or flame and water,
constitutes a serious life or fire hazard.
2.  Any room or space where sprinklers are considered undesirable
because of the nature of the contents, when approved by the fire code
official.
3.  Generator and transformer rooms separated from the remainder of the
building by walls and floor/ceiling or roof/ceiling assemblies having a
fire-resistance rating of not less than 2 hours.
4.  In rooms or areas that are of noncombustible construction with
wholly noncombustible contents.

Hope that helps,

John Drucker


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition of Throughout

I was just handed a situation where a HW plans examiner is citing the term
throughout to mean that sprinklers are required in a non-combustible attic
space.  His reasoning varies from the presence of HVAC, electrical,
catwalks, etc... Can anyone provide me with a definition for the wording
throughout as found in NFPA 13?

Thanks,

Bob Knight, CET
(208) 318-3057
b...@firebyknight.com
www.firebyknight.com


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RE: Definition of Throughout

[Bob Knight]

John and all,
Exception # 4.  In rooms or areas that are of noncombustible construction
with wholly noncombustible contents.  Would fire-retardant treated plywood
fit this description of non-combustible, or is this to be considered
limited-combustible?  The situation in question is an attic space
constructed with metal studs and sheathed with the treated plywood.  NFPA 13
8.15.1.1 speaks to Concealed spaces enclosed wholly or partly by exposed
combustible construction shall be protected by sprinklers.  My question
still is does this attic fall outside of the scope of this section, thus not
requiring sprinklers, or does the presence of the fire treated plywood cause
it to fall into 8.15.1.2.1  .2 which speak about noncombustible and limited
combustible materials?

Thanks,

Bob

-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:58 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition of Throughout

Here ya go Bob, 

Emphasis on EXCEPT in 2006 IBC 903.3.1.1. which refers to 903.3.1.1.1 as to
what is except.  Number 4 is what you are referring to however non
combustible contents is also a criteria.

2006 IBC 903.3.1.1 NFPA 13 sprinkler systems.
Where the provisions of this code require that a building or portion thereof
be equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler system in accordance with
this section, sprinklers shall be installed throughout in accordance with
NFPA 13 EXCEPT as provided in Section 903.3.1.1.1

903.3.1.1.1 Exempt locations.
Automatic sprinklers shall not be required in the following rooms or areas
where such rooms or areas are protected with an approved automatic fire
detection system, in accordance with Section 907.2, that will respond to
visible or invisible particles of combustion. Sprinklers shall not be
omitted from any room merely because it is damp, of fire-resistance-rated
construction or contains electrical equipment.
1.  Any room where the application of water, or flame and water,
constitutes a serious life or fire hazard.
2.  Any room or space where sprinklers are considered undesirable
because of the nature of the contents, when approved by the fire code
official.
3.  Generator and transformer rooms separated from the remainder of the
building by walls and floor/ceiling or roof/ceiling assemblies having a
fire-resistance rating of not less than 2 hours.
4.  In rooms or areas that are of noncombustible construction with
wholly noncombustible contents.

Hope that helps,

John Drucker


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 5:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition of Throughout

I was just handed a situation where a HW plans examiner is citing the term
throughout to mean that sprinklers are required in a non-combustible attic
space.  His reasoning varies from the presence of HVAC, electrical,
catwalks, etc... Can anyone provide me with a definition for the wording
throughout as found in NFPA 13?

Thanks,

Bob Knight, CET
(208) 318-3057
b...@firebyknight.com
www.firebyknight.com


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RE: Definition of Throughout

[Matthew J. Willis]

Bob,
See 8.1 and the annex (02)

Matt

 
Matthew J. Willis, CET
Automatic Fire Sprinklers
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition of Throughout

I was just handed a situation where a HW plans examiner is citing the term
throughout to mean that sprinklers are required in a non-combustible attic
space.  His reasoning varies from the presence of HVAC, electrical,
catwalks, etc... Can anyone provide me with a definition for the wording
throughout as found in NFPA 13?

Thanks,

Bob Knight, CET
(208) 318-3057
b...@firebyknight.com
www.firebyknight.com


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RE: Definition of Throughout

[Bob Knight]

Thanks Matt,
I'd already read that in the 2007, and was hoping for more.  On another
note, it is my understanding that section 8.15.1 Concealed Spaces (8.14.1,
2002) is in regard to exposed combustible construction only.  This includes
all of the following paragraphs in this given section.  Is this correct?  If
correct, then the text in 8.15.1.1 that states, Concealed spaces enclosed
wholly or partly by exposed combustible construction shall be protected by
sprinklers would then dictate to me that the noncombustible concealed space
in this attic does not require sprinklers.  Right?  But, what about the next
two sections that are in regard to noncombustible and limited combustible
materials?  How do these two sections fit within the entire section that is
speaking about combustible construction?  Thanks for the help; I'll have to
continue this tomorrow.  I have a baseball game to go to right now.

Bob


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Matthew J.
Willis
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:45 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition of Throughout

Bob,
See 8.1 and the annex (02)

Matt

 
Matthew J. Willis, CET
Automatic Fire Sprinklers
Norred Fire Systems L.L.C.
318-387-1134 Voice
318-387-1163 Facsimile
m...@norredfire.com
-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition of Throughout

I was just handed a situation where a HW plans examiner is citing the term
throughout to mean that sprinklers are required in a non-combustible attic
space.  His reasoning varies from the presence of HVAC, electrical,
catwalks, etc... Can anyone provide me with a definition for the wording
throughout as found in NFPA 13?

Thanks,

Bob Knight, CET
(208) 318-3057
b...@firebyknight.com
www.firebyknight.com


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RE: Definition of Throughout

[Thom McMahon]

NFPA 13, 2007
8.1.1 (1) REQUIRES SPRINKLERS THROUGHOUT

A.8.1.1 This standard contemplates full sprinkler protection
for all areas including walk-in coolers, freezers, bank vaults,
and similar areas. Other NFPA standards that mandate sprinkler
installation might not require sprinklers in certain areas.
Based upon experience and testing, sprinklers have been
found to be effective and necessary at heights in excess of 50 ft
(15.2 m). For a building to meet the intended level of protection
afforded by NFPA13, sprinklers must not be omitted from
such high ceiling spaces. The requirements of this standard
should be used insofar as they are applicable. The authority
having jurisdiction should be consulted in each case. A building
is considered sprinklered throughout when protected in
accordance with the requirements of this standard.


IFC
903.3.1.1 NFPA 13 sprinkler systems. Where the provisions
of this code require that a building or portion
thereof be equipped throughout with an automatic sprinkler
system in accordance with this section, sprinklers
shall be installed throughout in accordance with NFPA
13 except as provided in Section 903.3.1.1.1.
903.3.1.1.1 Exempt locations. Automatic sprinklers

903.3.1.2 NFPA 13R sprinkler systems. Where
allowed in buildings of Group R, up to and including four
stories in height, automatic sprinkler systems shall be
installed throughout in accordance with NFPA 13R.
903.3.1.2.1 Balconies and decks. Sprinkler protection

903.3.1.3 NFPA 13D sprinkler systems. Where
allowed, automatic sprinkler systems installed in oneand
two-family dwellings shall be installed throughout
in accordance with NFPA 13D.
903.3.2 Quick-response and residential sprinklers.

This was just to show that Throughout means different things in different
parts of the code. Also there are many Exceptions in the IFC to what shall
be sprinklered, one exception is a non-combustible room with non-combustible
contents. If you're not required to protect a non-combustible occupiable
room, why would you be required to protect a non-combustible concealed space
above that room?

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926



-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition of Throughout

I was just handed a situation where a HW plans examiner is citing the term
throughout to mean that sprinklers are required in a non-combustible attic
space.  His reasoning varies from the presence of HVAC, electrical,
catwalks, etc... Can anyone provide me with a definition for the wording
throughout as found in NFPA 13?

Thanks,

Bob Knight, CET
(208) 318-3057
b...@firebyknight.com
www.firebyknight.com


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RE: Definition of Throughout

[Thom McMahon]

Bob: IFC 905 says standpipes shall be installed throughout, so if throughout
in 903 means above the ceilings does 905 also?

Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel:  970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926


-Original Message-
From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org
[mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Bob Knight
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 4:06 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition of Throughout

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RE: Definition?

[Craig.Prahl]

Are you talking about fire resistance as in rated construction?  Fire 
separation per code refers to actual distance.

If we're talking about rated construction, and depending on what Code set you 
follow, IBC 2006, Chapter 7 references Fire resistance rated construction.

What specifically are you looking for?


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jamie Seidl
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:49 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition?

Can anyone point me to the requirements and or definition for a 30 min rated 
separation?

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RE: Definition?

[Jamie Seidl]

I am trying to apply 2007 13R 6.8.2.2 for the design area for a small office in 
an otherwise 13R multi family building.  The wall is not a 1 hr rated wall but 
it does have 3/8 gypsum walls and ceiling.  Per 6.8.2.2, it only needs to be 
30 min construction to use a 4 head design.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 9:36 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Definition?

Are you talking about fire resistance as in rated construction?  Fire 
separation per code refers to actual distance.

If we're talking about rated construction, and depending on what Code set you 
follow, IBC 2006, Chapter 7 references Fire resistance rated construction.

What specifically are you looking for?


Craig L. Prahl, CET
Fire Protection Specialist
Mechanical Department
CH2MHILL
Lockwood Greene
1500 International Drive
PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC  29304-0491
Direct - 864.599.4102
Fax - 864.599.8439
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.ch2m.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jamie Seidl
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 8:49 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Definition?

Can anyone point me to the requirements and or definition for a 30 min rated 
separation?

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RE: definition of throughout

[John Drucker]

Greg,

What you're looking for is addressed at 2006 IBC 903.3.1.1  903.1.1.1 

John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official
New Jersey

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 11:21 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: definition of throughout

Does any one have a definitive definition of the term protected
throughout by an approved, supervised automatic sprinkler system means
in relation to 13 vs 13R vs 13D? I believe there is something in the IBC
commentary about this.

 

Is a building NOT protected throughout if the heads in allowable
bathrooms and/or closets are omitted?

 

Thanks for the help,

Greg

 

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC

1160 McKenzie Road

Cantonment, FL 32533

850-937-1850

Fax: 850-937-1852

 

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RE: definition of throughout

[Jack Carlson]

Greg,

See NFPA 13 (2002 Edition) A.8.1.1.  the last sentence states A
building is considered sprinklered throughout when protected in
accordance with the requirements of this standard. 


Jack W. Carlson, SET
Triple A Fire Protection, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 11:21 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: definition of throughout

Does any one have a definitive definition of the term protected
throughout by an approved, supervised automatic sprinkler system means
in relation to 13 vs 13R vs 13D? I believe there is something in the IBC
commentary about this.

 

Is a building NOT protected throughout if the heads in allowable
bathrooms and/or closets are omitted?

 

Thanks for the help,

Greg

 

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC

1160 McKenzie Road

Cantonment, FL 32533

850-937-1850

Fax: 850-937-1852

 

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RE: definition of throughout

[John Drucker]

Be careful, the 2006 IBC contains language that supercedes NFPA-13.

The 2006 IBC code language at 903.3.1.1 specifically states;
.sprinklers shall be installed throughout in accordance with NFPA 13
EXCEPT AS PROVIDED IN SECTION 903.1.1.1.1, 903.3.1.2 AND 903.3.1.3
(Emphasis mine)  

John Drucker
Fire Protection Subcode Official
New Jersey

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack
Carlson
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 11:30 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: definition of throughout

Greg,

See NFPA 13 (2002 Edition) A.8.1.1.  the last sentence states A
building is considered sprinklered throughout when protected in
accordance with the requirements of this standard. 


Jack W. Carlson, SET
Triple A Fire Protection, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Greg
McGahan
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2007 11:21 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: definition of throughout

Does any one have a definitive definition of the term protected
throughout by an approved, supervised automatic sprinkler system means
in relation to 13 vs 13R vs 13D? I believe there is something in the IBC
commentary about this.

 

Is a building NOT protected throughout if the heads in allowable
bathrooms and/or closets are omitted?

 

Thanks for the help,

Greg

 

Living Water Fire Protection, LLC

1160 McKenzie Road

Cantonment, FL 32533

850-937-1850

Fax: 850-937-1852

 

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Re: definition - FD access - part 2

[R Richardson]

Certainly, if the roof has no roof decks designed for occupancy then
the roof is not considered an occupied floor.  If there are roof decks
good chance the answer is yes.  We have a local ammendment allowing
small roof decks (less than 50 ocupants) to be provided without
considering it an occupied floor for the purposes of high rise
definition, but a deck with an O.L. greater than 50 is considered an
occupied floor.

Rich Richardson
Seattle Fire Department

 Todd Williams - work [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/08/07 4:17 AM 
This may be more picking of nits, but I'm trying to anticipate all 
the things that could be thrown at me. The definition uses the phrase 
occupied floors. If a stair tower extends to provide roof access, 
does the top landing, which opens out onto the roof constitute an 
occupied floor?

The reason that I am coming up with questions like this is that the 
new Codes on CT (as of Jan 2006) have caused a great deal of 
confusion and there is no consistency of judgement between AHJs, 
contractors, engineers, etc. For my own accuracy, liability and 
sanity, I am trying to get a grasp on the new criteria. Plus I'm 
working on a job where I'm being asked to evaluate the need for a fire
pump.



Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
860-535-2080
www.fpdc.com 

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RE: definition - FD access - part 2

[Steve Leyton]

All of these are defined terms in the code(s) ... roof, basement, etc.   Try 
this for a roof - can the space be sold or leased?   If so, it's a floor.

Steve L.

-Original Message-
From: R Richardson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2007 6:13 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: Re: definition - FD access - part 2


Certainly, if the roof has no roof decks designed for occupancy then
the roof is not considered an occupied floor.  If there are roof decks
good chance the answer is yes.  We have a local ammendment allowing
small roof decks (less than 50 ocupants) to be provided without
considering it an occupied floor for the purposes of high rise
definition, but a deck with an O.L. greater than 50 is considered an
occupied floor.

Rich Richardson
Seattle Fire Department

 Todd Williams - work [EMAIL PROTECTED] 03/08/07 4:17 AM 
This may be more picking of nits, but I'm trying to anticipate all 
the things that could be thrown at me. The definition uses the phrase 
occupied floors. If a stair tower extends to provide roof access, 
does the top landing, which opens out onto the roof constitute an 
occupied floor?

The reason that I am coming up with questions like this is that the 
new Codes on CT (as of Jan 2006) have caused a great deal of 
confusion and there is no consistency of judgement between AHJs, 
contractors, engineers, etc. For my own accuracy, liability and 
sanity, I am trying to get a grasp on the new criteria. Plus I'm 
working on a job where I'm being asked to evaluate the need for a fire
pump.



Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
860-535-2080
www.fpdc.com 

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RE: definition - FD access

[Smith, Steven D. (CSFD)]

The key is the word FD vehicle access. From what you describe, I
envision a normal grade say 0'. The access door from the basement is at
-10'  with the stairs from that leading back up to 0'. Sounds like the
vehicle access is at 0' and this would be your lowest vehicle access for
the fire department. Now if the basement door walked out to a FD access
drive at -10', then the -10' would be your lowest FD access point. 

What does your AHJ think?

Steven Smith, CFPS
Fire Protection Engineer II
Colorado Springs Fire Department
719-385-7362

In Omnia Paratus
Fire Engineering Saves Firefighters Lives


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 5:09 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: definition - FD access

This may be somewhat of a stretch for this Forum, but it does make a
difference in the sprinkler/standpipe systems. The IBC defines a high
rise building based on the lowest level of fire department vehicle
access. I am looking at a building which is 6 stories plus basement. 
The basement has an egress door that opens into an open landing in a
well (about 4 x 4) and then goes up 12 steps to grade. If the elevation
is taken from grade, the building is not a high rise, if the elevation
is taken from the landing, it is. The grade is relatively level around
the building and this drop does not occur elsewhere. Would the lowest
level be measured from grade or from the 4 x 4 landing?

Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
860-535-2080
www.fpdc.com 

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RE: definition - FD access

[Todd Williams - work]

Tom,

I've done that in the past, but what is current and what was in the 
past can often be three different things.


Todd

At 07:26 AM 3/7/2007, you wrote:

Todd-
Do you know how to determine if a Basement is a Basement by taking perimeter
measurements?
That's how I have taken high-rise dimensions; by average mean grade.
Tom
Go Red Sox

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Cipriani,
Daniel
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 7:14 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: definition - FD access


Todd,
From your description, it doesn't seem like a fire department vehicle
would be able to set up at the lower elevation, so the measurement would
be from the surrounding grade.

Dan Cipriani
City of Pittsburgh

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Todd
Williams - work
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 7:09 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: definition - FD access


This may be somewhat of a stretch for this Forum, but it does make a
difference in the sprinkler/standpipe systems. The IBC defines a high
rise building based on the lowest level of fire department vehicle
access. I am looking at a building which is 6 stories plus basement.
The basement has an egress door that opens into an open landing in a
well (about 4 x 4) and then goes up 12 steps to grade. If the
elevation is taken from grade, the building is not a high rise, if
the elevation is taken from the landing, it is. The grade is
relatively level around the building and this drop does not occur
elsewhere. Would the lowest level be measured from grade or from
the 4 x 4 landing?

Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
860-535-2080
www.fpdc.com

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Todd G. Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting
Stonington, Connecticut
860-535-2080
www.fpdc.com 


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