subject:"Re\: \[SlimDevices\: SqueezeCenter\] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9"



RobbH wrote: 
> Gentlemen (meaning primarily PasTim and dolodobendan):
> 
> These things matter. A lot. To a very few of us. Among that small group
> of "us," opinions vary and disagreements are inevitable. Like academic
> infighting, one of the reasons disputes can be so bitter is that the
> stakes are so small.
> 
> I do not have a degree in Physics, much to my regret. What I have is
> nearly thirty years of experience as music director of a radio station
> that played mainly classical music. At the start, that is. Over the
> course of those thirty years, the percentage of time devoted to music
> decreased to less than half.
> 
> Managing the library was always a struggle. I tried various software
> solutions early on, and finally wrote my own in Filemaker. That solution
> gave me most of the information I needed, with the exception of a good
> way to distinguish between complete works and excerpts, which seemed to
> be a universal problem. My solution was also so clunky that entering new
> recordings was hopelessly complicated and severely slowed down expansion
> of the library.
> 
> There are legends in classical radio of people who started working on
> their own music management software and were, for all practical
> purposes, never heard from again. I mean that figuratively, of course.
> They still came to the office every day, but they were never known to do
> any productive work on anything but their software project, which was
> never completed.
> 
> I was almost one of those guys. I suppose I WAS one for a while, but I
> gave up and went back to my real work with what I had, limitations and
> all.
> 
> I have a fair amount of classical music in my library, and I feel your
> pain. But I'm willing to be content with the limited tools that are
> available within LMS for managing classical music. I use the sort of
> workarounds that you have rejected. And there are good reasons for
> rejecting them. When the title field is absurdly long, because you're
> trying to combine some representation of composer, title, catalog
> number, and subdivision (if any), all in one field, it's ugly and often
> unmanageable. And some important information is still missing.
> 
> I'm willing to live with the ugliness and unmanageability, as long as it
> doesn't get in the way of my enjoyment of the music. That's not to say
> that you should live with it or that it wouldn't detract from your
> enjoyment. But I would like to encourage you to consider the nature of
> that rabbit hole before you plunge back down into it. Especially, please
> try to calculate your chances of achieving what you will consider
> success and scale your dreams accordingly.
> 
> I do wish you both (and anyone else struggling with this) the best of
> luck. I hope you will find a way to achieve something that satisfies
> you. But please try to remember that it's very unlikely that your
> solution will satisfy anyone else. Opinions vary. Priorities differ. I
> hope you can enjoy your life and the wonderful music at your command,
> even with the necessary compromises.

Thanks for that. As for your lack of degrees in physics: Music director
of a radio station sounds much more fun! :)



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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

2021-01-29 Thread RobbH



Gentlemen (meaning primarily PasTim and dolodobendan):

These things matter. A lot. To a very few of us. Among that small group
of "us," opinions vary and disagreements are inevitable. Like academic
infighting, one of the reasons disputes can be so bitter is that the
stakes are so small.

I do not have a degree in Physics, much to my regret. What I have is
nearly thirty years of experience as music director of a radio station
that played mainly classical music. At the start, that is. Over the
course of those thirty years, the percentage of time devoted to music
decreased to less than half.

Managing the library was always a struggle. I tried various software
solutions early on, and finally wrote my own in Filemaker. That solution
gave me most of the information I needed, with the exception of a good
way to distinguish between complete works and excerpts, which seemed to
be a universal problem. My solution was also so clunky that entering new
recordings was hopelessly complicated and severely slowed down expansion
of the library.

There are legends in classical radio of people who started working on
their own music management software and were, for all practical
purposes, never heard from again. I mean that figuratively, of course.
They still came to the office every day, but they were never known to do
any productive work on anything but their software project, which was
never completed.

I was almost one of those guys. I suppose I WAS one for a while, but I
gave up and went back to my real work with what I had, limitations and
all.

I have a fair amount of classical music in my library, and I feel your
pain. But I'm willing to be content with the limited tools that are
available within LMS for managing classical music. I use the sort of
workarounds that you have rejected. And there are good reasons for
rejecting them. When the title field is absurdly long, because you're
trying to combine some representation of composer, title, catalog
number, and subdivision (if any), all in one field, it's ugly and often
unmanageable. And some important information is still missing.

I'm willing to live with the ugliness and unmanageability, as long as it
doesn't get in the way of my enjoyment of the music. That's not to say
that you should live with it or that it wouldn't detract from your
enjoyment. But I would like to encourage you to consider the nature of
that rabbit hole before you plunge back down into it. Especially, please
try to calculate your chances of achieving what you will consider
success and scale your dreams accordingly.

I do wish you both (and anyone else struggling with this) the best of
luck. I hope you will find a way to achieve something that satisfies
you. But please try to remember that it's very unlikely that your
solution will satisfy anyone else. Opinions vary. Priorities differ. I
hope you can enjoy your life and the wonderful music at your command,
even with the necessary compromises.



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wireless players connected via Airplay Bridge; 1 SqueezeAmp player
no high-end or esoteric audio gear
1 Squeezebox Radio (upgraded UE Smart Radio) now mostly retired

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9



PasTim wrote: 
> dolodobendan.
> 
> This is only time, ever, in all my years on this forum that someone has
> repeatedly insulted me.  It has previously always be a pleasure to
> discuss differences and views.  But not this time.  Music is for
> enjoyment, not some strange form of one-upmanship.
> 
> So I'm unsubscribing from this thread.  
> 
> Cheerio.

Erm, sorry, but where did I insult you?



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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9



dolodobendan.

This is only time, ever, in all my years on this forum that someone has
repeatedly insulted me.  It has previously always be a pleasure to
discuss differences and views.  But not this time.  Music is for
enjoyment, not some strange form of one-upmanship.

So I'm unsubscribing from this thread.  

Cheerio.



LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9



I disagree with so much that you have written that I won't respond bit
by bit.  I fail to understand half of it.  

Music is NOT about recordings, to me, it about performances,  So a
Concerto has a WORKARTIST - it must have, for me.  So does a Symphony
(the same as CONDUCTOR), and so on. It/they is the key ARTIST on all
tracks of the performance.  

An extract of a WORK is part of WORK, so in the naming hierarchy, it's
not a random extract, it's part of a WORK. It's music, is it not?  WORK
composed by people. Not 'extracts' of a recording.  If I have 50
performances of the same aria they all come up in a WORK/MOVEMENT query.
Or try using Erlands Dynamic Tag menu.  What's the issue? If there is an
opera with an aria of the same name (or indeed a Mass - much more
likely), how do I find the different pieces of music with the same name?
I use WORK and MOVEMENT.  
.  
And please stop saying yours is so much better ' less rocky' indeed.  I
might think the same of yours solution but I don't say so.  I have tried
to stay polite.  I wish you would respect other people's views and stop
slagging them off.

I am quite sure my plot will works with larger libraries.  I can't see
why it would not, provided performances are key, not recordings.

Because the world is as it is, not as we might like it, all my music
must be easily playable on systems that are not as flexible as LMS. 
That's life.  If/when LMS collapses, I have several other ways of still
playing my music reasonably easily, just not as good.  A necessary
precaution for me.

What is JEFF?



LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

PasTim wrote: 
> Apology accepted, from someone with a Physics degree and a lifteime in
> IT.  Please get over the idea of 'right' and 'wrong'.  Just different. 
> I will never accuse you of being wrong, just not my way of doing things,
> but, I'm sure, equally good for you.

See? I have a degree in physics, too. And in and musicology. And too
much time in IT. ;-)

PasTim wrote: 
> Some also seem to believe that because I have a mere tens of thousand of
> tracks, that's 'relatively' trivial.  Another unpleasant way of
> discussing a subject we both seem to care about, and so unnecessary.

Just pointing out that it won't work with larger libraries. Which -
again - it doesn't. 

PasTim wrote: 
> This is, sadly, a splendid example of why no one will ever get an agreed
> classical music standard.

Yes. Because the standard that is out there is rejected by people who
came up with their own. Understandable, but that's the reason why we
have this discussion.

PasTim wrote: 
> TI'd be quite happy with RECORDING as well for those who want it, but it
> seems that asking for the, to me, supremely logical WORKARTIST is too
> much.

Recording is a music thing. Recordings are referred to by recordings,
not workartists. Don't know how anyone couldn't see the logic here. Of
course, we could come up with our own inventions, but as you said: 

PasTim wrote: 
> This is, sadly, a splendid example of why no one will ever get an agreed
> classical music standard.

And you're right!

PasTim wrote: 
> I couldn't use a system with WORK = extract, and cannot understand it
> all (truly - it baffles me).

Again: You don't want to search through hundreds of entries to find the
whole recording. What do you do if you have an opera and THE SAME TRACK
as an extract? The entry looks the same, doesn't it.

But it doesn't matter, you don't HAVE to do it this way.

You use WORK / WORKARTIST.
I use WORK / RECORDING.

We both use two tags. We can agree on that, can't we. And we're using
them more or less in the same way. One way is rockier than the other.
But that's a choice I won't judge this time. ;) 

I argue that the name for your WORKARTIST leaves room for improvement
and that it's called recording anyway, so way not use that name.

PasTim wrote: 
> So a flexible solution is, as far as I can tell, essential.

"Both solutions" are flexible; It's the same solution anyway. As I
pointed out, it doesn't really matter how that second tag is called. We
could call it Jeff. But I still think recording is the more fitting
choice because it needs to feature a date (if you don't like a date,
just don't add a date). That's no invention of mine - that's how it's
done. Thank you, Karajan, for your three Beethoven symphony cycles.

Whatever drove you to include extracts in works I will never understand.
Luckily, I don't have to. You still could do your "hail mary let's
include everything thing" with WORK / RECORDING. And I could still use
extracts with WORK / WORKARTIST. And I could add a date to WORKARTIST.
Which is beyond the tag's name. Which is why I don't like this as the
second tag name.

PasTim wrote: 
> 
> One of my criteria when basing my solution on that proposed by Erland in
> Custom Browse
> (https://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Setup_browse_menu_for_classical_music)
> was that it had to work on systems with no extra tag support or flexible
> menus, such as the old Windows Media, so all the standard tags have to
> function as best they can.

That's what created this mess in the first place, so please no.

PasTim wrote: 
> This clearly isn't going anywhere, so I don't think opening a new thread
> on the topic will help.  Sad, but not surprised.

Now I'm the one that is baffled. Sorry, but you're wrong. We established
that two tags, WORK and JEFF, are needed. I'd call this a success.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

dolodobendan wrote: 
> It wasn't meant to be unnecessarily rude. For that, I apologize. I can
> accept that people view things differently. But I won't say they are
> right if they are not.
Apology accepted, from someone with a Physics degree and a lifteime in
IT.  Please get over the idea of 'right' and 'wrong'.  Just different. 
I will never accuse you of being wrong, just not my way of doing things,
but, I'm sure, equally good for you.

Some also seem to believe that because I have a mere tens of thousand of
tracks, that's 'relatively' trivial.  Another unpleasant way of
discussing a subject we both seem to care about, and so unnecessary.

This is, sadly, a splendid example of why no one will ever get an agreed
classical music standard.  I'd be quite happy with RECORDING as well for
those who want it, but it seems that asking for the, to me, supremely
logical WORKARTIST is too much.  I couldn't use a system with WORK =
extract, and cannot understand it all (truly - it baffles me).  Others
insist on it.  So a flexible solution is, as far as I can tell,
essential.  Erland earlier mentioned a project to create a common
standard, but it seems to have fallen by the wayside.  It's a real shame
that the inventors of the tagging regime didn't think about this at all.
One of my criteria when basing my solution on that proposed by Erland
in Custom Browse
(https://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/Setup_browse_menu_for_classical_music)
was that it had to work on systems with no extra tag support or flexible
menus, such as the old Windows Media, so all the standard tags have to
function as best they can.

This clearly isn't going anywhere, so I don't think opening a new thread
on the topic will help.  Sad, but not surprised.

LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

PasTim wrote: 
> But I do have MOVEMENTs of many WORKS.  Doesn't it bother you that if
> you search for an Opera WORK you don't find all the separate MOVEMENTs
> as well?

Quite the contrary. If I want to listen to one extract, I'll go to
Extracts. That's like asking if it doesn't bother me that I don't find
all Paul McCartney songs in Beatles. Is a concert aria an opera, too? 

PasTim wrote: 
> It all just shows how different we are.

It does.

PasTim wrote: 
> I Use WORKARTIST all the time.  A key selection for me.  

Because that's what you came up with. I didn't come with "my" system.
It's how classical music is categorized. I just mimicked it.

PasTim wrote: 
> Good luck. 

Thanks. :) 

PasTim wrote: 
> We are just different.  I should note that TITLE  on all my tracks is
> "WORK - MOVEMENT". 

Same here. :) As long as WORK isn't displayed instead of ALBUM.

PasTim wrote: 
> If I want to play all of Best of Opera I usually know the ALBUMARTIST
> and GENRE (OPERA) and play the album.

That's what I'm saying.

PasTim wrote: 
> 
> If I want a specific aria from a WORK, I go to teh WORK and find it -
> not difficult for me.

That may work for small libraries.

PasTim wrote: 
> 
> That's unnecessarily rude.  Can't you accept people view things
> differently, equally validly?  I give up.  Bye.

It wasn't meant to be unnecessarily rude. For that, I apologize. I can
accept that people view things differently. But I won't say they are
right if they are not.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9



dolodobendan wrote: 
> "part of a WORK" is the important part here. Doesn't it bother you that
> *ONE* disc of random arias poses as several operas and fills your
> library with operas that you don't have?
>  But I do have MOVEMENTs of many WORKS.  Doesn't it bother you that if
you search for an Opera WORK you don't find all the separate MOVEMENTs
as well?

It all just shows how different we are.
> Okay. Both too complicated and too unprecise at the same time for my
> taste. But sure, different strokes for different folks. And I really see
> no advantage, except maybe the trackartist.
I Use WORKARTIST all the time.  A key selection for me.  

> I'll give it a try tomorrow. It's probably my setup.Good luck.
> I'm not sure what you mean. I have complete works, where WORK represents
> complete works. And I have extracts, where WORK just says Extracts and
> TITLE shows where it's from.
> I never want to listen to an extract when browsing works, thus browsing
> WORKs. Extracts are almost always on compilation discs like "Best of
> Opera" or whatever. It doesn't make sense (to me) that you would go to
> Rossini / Il Barbiere di Siviglia / Aria of Rosina and then listen to
> that ONE extract aria and then you have to do all that clicking again
> for the next one. I'd just find that album by ARTIST or ALBUM and select
> that track in that compilation. You don't look for a recording here but
> for a context.
We are just different.  I should note that TITLE  on all my tracks is
"WORK - MOVEMENT".If I want to play all of Best of Opera I usually
know the ALBUMARTIST and GENRE (OPERA) and play the album.  If I want a
specific aria from a WORK, I go to teh WORK and find it - not difficult
for me.

> Let's just say there's a scientific way to do this:
> 
> '
> https://www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk/CLBEFIDE.HTM'
> (https://www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk/CLBEFIDE.HTM)
> 
> And then there's... others.
>  That's unnecessarily rude.  Can't you accept people view things
differently, equally validly?  I give up.  Bye.



LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

PasTim wrote: 
> I'm afraid I simply don't understand. Sorry.  For me, an Aria is part of
> a WORK - it's a MOVEMENT, and the GENRE is for the WORK as a whole (I
> can imagine wanting a sub-sub-genre of ARIA, but I've never done that).
> My library isn't trivial (nearly 32,000 tracks).

"part of a WORK" is the important part here. Doesn't it bother you that
*ONE* disc of random arias poses as several operas and fills your
library with operas that you don't have?

Trivial is relative.

PasTim wrote: 
> We are different.  WORKARTIST is ALBUMARTIST, applied to a WORK - it
> can't have a YEAR in it.  Any MOVEMENT also has ARTISTs (TRACKARTIST). 
> The YEAR tag gives me the recording year.
> 
> My WORKARTISTs are visible and selectable.

Okay. Both too complicated and too unprecise at the same time for my
taste. But sure, different strokes for different folks. And I really see
no advantage, except maybe the trackartist.

PasTim wrote: 
> The only time I lose the Multi-Library ids are if I delete the whole of
> LMS cache, including all databases, and start again.  Doing a normal
> 'clear library and rescan' is OK.

I'll give it a try tomorrow. It's probably my setup.

PasTim wrote: 
> I agree that where it gets trickier is with some series of related
> pieces.  4 Last Songs (Strauss), or 24 preludes and fugues.  4 WORKs
> (each of 1 MOVEMENT), or one WORK with 4 MOVEMENTs, and so on. That's
> just a matter of personal preference to me, not a problem.  I don't have
> the concept of 'extracts' that you seem to have.

I'm not sure what you mean. I have complete works, where WORK represents
complete works. And I have extracts, where WORK just says Extracts and
TITLE shows where it's from.

I never want to listen to an extract when browsing works, thus browsing
WORKs. Extracts are almost always on compilation discs like "Best of
Opera" or whatever. It doesn't make sense (to me) that you would go to
Rossini / Il Barbiere di Siviglia / Aria of Rosina and then listen to
that ONE extract aria and then you have to do all that clicking again
for the next one. I'd just find that album by ARTIST or ALBUM and select
that track in that compilation. You don't look for a recording here but
for a context.

PasTim wrote: 
> I suspect all other Classical fans have their own ways of viewing this,
> as Erland suggests in another post, and that getting any form of
> agreement would be very hard, not least because change tagging on many
> thousands of tracks could be hard, and prone to error.

Let's just say there's a scientific way to do this:

'
https://www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk/CLBEFIDE.HTM'
(https://www.operadis-opera-discography.org.uk/CLBEFIDE.HTM)

And then there's... others.

The problem is that tag bending frenzy that happened because two
important tags are missing. I don't think that "retagging is hard"
should be an argument to implement a proper way to browse classical
music.

PasTim wrote: 
> I delete duplicate (identical) recordings. A different viewpoint.  I
> don't value the exact same performance on different ALBUMs.  One will
> do.

I could do that. But technically it's not very different from adding an
index. User intervention required. Adding an index can be done
internally. Deleting a recording - I hope not.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9



dolodobendan wrote: 
> This pretty much shows why RECORDING (or whatever) is needed: "Recording
> Session" (another name that'd work) shows the disc release, not the
> recording session's date, which is 1998 (if ArkivMusic got it right for
> a change. :p ). If I would look, I'm pretty sure I could find another
> disk that features one or both of the works presented here. I think I
> have Tchaikovski's piano concerto played by Richter on three different
> discs. Which one? That one: Sviatoslav Richter / Karajan / Wiener
> Symphoniker 1962. ALBUM is needed to identify an album. To identify the
> recording - not the disk - RECORDING is needed.
> 
> Seeing this, here's one thing I "manually" have to change in RECORDING:
> If it's the SAME recording, I have to create an index like [a],
> otherwise it will play "twice". I have a tag INDEX that I set if I know
> that I already have that recording and it will be integrated in
> RECORDING automatically. The scanning would have to create an index if
> it's not the same path (and / or the same disk set. cover.jpg size?
> YEAR?).
> 
> Oh, and you don't have to actually own many classical disc to have the
> same recording of a work twice. I think I got the Richter recording of
> that piano concerto within a month as presents. On different discs. I
> had around 20 classical discs back then.
I delete duplicate (identical) recordings. A different viewpoint.  I
don't value the exact same performance on different ALBUMs.  One will
do.



LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
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LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9



dolodobendan wrote: 
> The problem with your solution is that this creates entries that don't
> represent the work. For example, I'd click on "Il barbiere di Siviglia"
> and get a hundred result, most of them* are that Figaro's aria. (* If'd
> tag a whole opera "opera" and an extracted aria "aria", then I'd get
> different results depending on the menu path: COMPOSER - WORK -
> RECORDING will show these extracts, while GENRE - COMPOSER - WORK -
> RECORDING will not. That's bad, too, we want consistent results.) In
> other words, I don't recommend this approach for larger (or any, really)
> libraries.
I'm afraid I simply don't understand. Sorry.  For me, an Aria is part of
a WORK - it's a MOVEMENT, and the GENRE is for the WORK as a whole (I
can imagine wanting a sub-sub-genre of ARIA, but I've never done that).
My library isn't trivial (nearly 32,000 tracks).

> Yes. But it's always more than just some variant of ARTIST. It's always
> ARTIST + YEAR. Or even venue. That's why I prefer RECORDING. It can
> distinguish without being bend beyond the scope of it's name. WORK
> ARTIST cannot be Karajan 1960 (technically it can, of course. But it
> shouldn't.) RECORDING can. And it's called recording anyway, so why
> invent another name. We are different.  WORKARTIST is ALBUMARTIST, applied to 
> a WORK - it
can't have a YEAR in it.  Any MOVEMENT also has ARTISTs (TRACKARTIST). 
The YEAR tag gives me the recording year.

> But of course, in the end, it doesn't really matter how it's named as
> it's not visible anyway. 
My WORKARTISTs are visible and selectable.

> That's the situation now with Multi Library, Custom Browse, and Custom
> Scan. If you don't have this problem I envy you :D . Maybe it's my
> setup... The only time I lose the Multi-Library ids are if I delete the whole 
> of
LMS cache, including all databases, and start again.  Doing a normal
'clear library and rescan' is OK.

> I see why you would want to limit it to just WORK. But no, sorry.
> There's no standard that defines a work. Take Lieder (Songs) for
> example. There may be up to 40 works on a disc. Not extracts, but works.
> Please ask if I was being unclear. I know I can be. But both tags are
> needed. 
I agree that where it gets trickier is with some series of related
pieces.  4 Last Songs (Strauss), or 24 preludes and fugues.  4 WORKs
(each of 1 MOVEMENT), or one WORK with 4 MOVEMENTs, and so on. That's
just a matter of personal preference to me, not a problem.  I don't have
the concept of 'extracts' that you seem to have.

> Ah, yes, Multi Library. But if I wipe the cache each time I do a rescan
> and add (=rename) the libraries' xmls one by one, it works great.  I don't 
> wipe all of cache, and don't have any issues - I just clear
library and rescan'.

I suspect all other Classical fans have their own ways of viewing this,
as Erland suggests in another post, and that getting any form of
agreement would be very hard, not least because change tagging on many
thousands of tracks could be hard, and prone to error.



LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

2021-01-28 Thread dolodobendan

erland wrote: 
> 
> 
> Sample usage for this classical music disc:
> http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=451
> -
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/erland/socialmusicdiscovery/master/wiki/DatabaseModel/sample_%20Beethoven_Bernstein_%20Hilary%20Hahn.png

This pretty much shows why RECORDING (or whatever) is needed: "Recording
Session" (another name that'd work) shows the disc release, not the
recording session's date, which is 1998 (if ArkivMusic got it right for
a change. :p ). If I would look, I'm pretty sure I could find another
disk that features one or both of the works presented here. I think I
have Tchaikovski's piano concerto played by Richter on three different
discs. Which one? That one: Sviatoslav Richter / Karajan / Wiener
Symphoniker 1962. ALBUM is needed to identify an album. To identify the
recording - not the disk - RECORDING is needed.

Seeing this, here's one thing I "manually" have to change in RECORDING:
If it's the SAME recording, I have to create an index like [a],
otherwise it will play "twice". I have a tag INDEX that I set if I know
that I already have that recording and it will be integrated in
RECORDING automatically. The scanning would have to create an index if
it's not the same path (and / or the same disk set. cover.jpg size?
YEAR?).

Oh, and you don't have to actually own many classical disc to have the
same recording of a work twice. I think I got the Richter recording of
that piano concerto within a month as presents. On different discs. I
had around 20 classical discs back then.

QLMS 8.2@2.21 x64 (digimaster) with perl 5.30.1 / QNAP 469L QTS 4.3.4

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

2021-01-28 Thread dolodobendan

PasTim wrote: 
> I still assign the WORK if it is an extract, and assign the appropriate
> MOVEMENT (there almost always is a named movement/aria/etc of some
> sort).

The problem with your solution is that this creates entries that don't
represent the work. For example, I'd click on "Il barbiere di Siviglia"
and get a hundred result, most of them* are that Figaro's aria. (* If'd
tag a whole opera "opera" and an extracted aria "aria", then I'd get
different results depending on the menu path: COMPOSER - WORK -
RECORDING will show these extracts, while GENRE - COMPOSER - WORK -
RECORDING will not. That's bad, too, we want consistent results.) In
other words, I don't recommend this approach for larger (or any, really)
libraries.

PasTim wrote: 
> 
> WORK ARTIST effectively does the same for me, except if there are
> multiple versions by the same person of the same WORK.  We all have
> different ways of trying to do much the same thing :)

Yes. But it's always more than just some variant of ARTIST. It's always
ARTIST + YEAR. Or even venue. That's why I prefer RECORDING. It can
distinguish without being bend beyond the scope of it's name. WORK
ARTIST cannot be Karajan 1960 (technically it can, of course. But it
shouldn't.) RECORDING can. And it's called recording anyway, so why
invent another name.

But of course, in the end, it doesn't really matter how it's named as
it's not visible anyway. 

PasTim wrote: 
> If still the case that rules out that as a solution for me using my
> tailored Custom Browse menus.

That's the situation now with Multi Library, Custom Browse, and Custom
Scan. If you don't have this problem I envy you :D . Maybe it's my
setup...

erland wrote: 
> What Im trying to understand is if ALBUM could be used for recording on
> discs that contain full works and for album title for other albums (like
> your Callas arias example).
> That way we wouldnt have to add support for RECORDING as a separate
> tag. Support for WORK would still be needed of course.

I see why you would want to limit it to just WORK. But no, sorry.
There's no standard that defines a work. Take Lieder (Songs) for
example. There may be up to 40 works on a disc. Not extracts, but works.

Please ask if I was being unclear. I know I can be. But both tags are
needed.

erland wrote: 
> Are you referring to Multi Library plugin library ids
> (multilibrary_track table) or ids for the built-in libraries supported
> in LMS 7.9 (library_tracks table) ?
> Im guessing you are talking about the Multi Library plugin libraries
> since you are referring to Custom Browse ?

Ah, yes, Multi Library. But if I wipe the cache each time I do a rescan
and add (=rename) the libraries' xmls one by one, it works great. 

The only other problem with Multi Library is that libraries with umlauts
in it (like "Hörbücher") won't open in default LMS skin ("404 Not Found:
player=00:04:20:xx:xx:xx). That started somewhere around 7.9.2. I think
I mentioned this somewhere here, but as it works with Material, it
doesn't affect me most of the time.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

PasTim wrote: 
> Is this using a custom browse menu you created?  Work is not a known tag
> in LMS as far as I know.  I don't understand what you mean about tagging
> a 'larger' album with a work tag, unless you mean replacing the album
> name with just one Work.  Sorry, I'm being dim.

No, sorry, this is the Qobuz plugin. I assumed this was a tag, but
indeed it doesn't work with albums that I bought and downloaded... 

It seems like a really useful feature though, and would be nice if this
could work for local libraries as well...

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9


If its of interest to anyone we did do a domain model in the Social
Music Discovery project that was supposed to cover all kind of music:
-
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/erland/socialmusicdiscovery/master/wiki/DatabaseModel/DomainModel.png
It uses a bit different names for things, for example:
- movement = part
- album = release
Its also a bit more complex than needed for what we are talking about
in this thread.

Sample usage for this classical music disc:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=451
-
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/erland/socialmusicdiscovery/master/wiki/DatabaseModel/sample_%20Beethoven_Bernstein_%20Hilary%20Hahn.png

There are related Java code that show/manage the data and a Perl plugin
that integrates with LMS in the github repository:
https://github.com/erland/socialmusicdiscovery
Anyone that wants to do something is free to steal ideas/code as its
released under BSD license.



Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
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(https://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User_Erland.html)
*Starting with LMS 8.0 I no longer support my plugins/applets* ('see
here for more information'
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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9


PasTim wrote: 
> Do think think my ideas in #42 would be a good start?

I think a flexible menu makes sense, if I understand you correctly you
are basically thinking of something like the dynamicmixedtags (Dynamic
Tags) menu provided by Custom Scan plugin to Custom Browse. It requires
a few more clicks but lets you select the browse order when browsing
instead of doing it at configuration time. Could be combined with a few
most commonly used static menu hierarchies to avoid the extra clicks in
most cases.

I dont think it makes sense to do another scanner plugin that lets you
scan whatever tags you like. Its a lot better to do a Classical Music
plugin where the tags used are defined in the plugin and not by the end
user. By letting the plugin developer defining the tags its possible to
implement smart features in the browsing dependent what you look at
since the plugin really understands what a specific tag means.

Please keep in mind that I own about 10 classical albums so I might be
missing obvious things known by you and other people with large
classical libraries.



Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
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(https://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User_Erland.html)
*Starting with LMS 8.0 I no longer support my plugins/applets* ('see
here for more information'
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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9


erland wrote: 
> Assuming LMS will be developed further and doesnt move into a minimal
> maintenance phase I suspect both will eventually break. If nothing else
> breaks them a new Perl version is probably going to do it at some point.
> I would be surprised if the streaming service integration in 8.0 doesnt
> already cause some issues. A likely scenario is that they will degrade
> slowly by not including/working with new great features added to LMS
> core. There is no way to say which one is going to break first.
> 
> My feeling is still that a Classical Music plugin would make sense. By
> focusing on classical music you can define the logic in the plugin
> instead of forcing each user to configure their own set of tags/menus.
> It will also be a lot easier to maintain since you know the logic
> instead of having to understand all different configuration variations.
> 
> 
> I suspect its unlikely that Michael is going to do something like this
> in the core as its a lot of work and it doesnt match the
> database/browsing principles of other parts of LMS. So, I think the next
> step is to wait and see if any developer picks up this discussion and
> tries to accomplish something. Hopefully someone has done something
> before my plugins stop working. Not sure its worth to continue this
> discussion any further as its off topic of the thread and we dont know
> if anyone have an interest to try to do something. If anyone wants to
> continue the discussion it probably makes sense to start a new thread so
> its more likely to attract developers interested to do something.
Do think think my ideas in #42 would be a good start?



LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

PasTim wrote: 
> I don't know which of Custom Scan or Custom Browse is the more fragile
> in terms of long term developments that might break them.  If Custom
> Scan is more likely to survive, then a limited long-life Custom Browse
> that can add the selected extra tags into the flexible menus would be
> enough.
> 
> I have no doubt all of this might be hard,  but Erland has laid the
> groundwork on the flexible menu, and custom scan.
> 
Assuming LMS will be developed further and doesnt move into a minimal
maintenance phase I suspect both will eventually break. If nothing else
breaks them a new Perl version is probably going to do it at some point.
I would be surprised if the streaming service integration in 8.0 doesnt
already cause some issues. A likely scenario is that they will degrade
slowly by not including/working with new great features added to LMS
core. There is no way to say which one is going to break first.

My feeling is still that a Classical Music plugin would make sense. By
focusing on classical music you can define the logic in the plugin
instead of forcing each user to configure their own set of tags/menus.
It will also be a lot easier to maintain since you know the logic
instead of having to understand all different configuration variations.

I suspect its unlikely that Michael is going to do something like this
in the core as its a lot of work and it doesnt match the
database/browsing principles of other parts of LMS. So, I think the next
step is to wait and see if any developer picks up this discussion and
tries to accomplish something. Hopefully someone has done something
before my plugins stop working. Not sure its worth to continue this
discussion any further as its off topic of the thread and we dont know
if anyone have an interest to try to do something. If anyone wants to
continue the discussion it probably makes sense to start a new thread so
its more likely to attract developers interested to do something.

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(https://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User_Erland.html)
*Starting with LMS 8.0 I no longer support my plugins/applets* ('see
here for more information'
(https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?49483-Announce-New-versions-of-erlands-plugins=998836=1#post998836)
)

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9


erland wrote: 
> What Im trying to understand is if ALBUM could be used for recording on
> discs that contain full works and for album title for other albums (like
> your Callas arias example).
> That way we wouldnt have to add support for RECORDING as a separate
> tag. Support for WORK would still be needed of course.
Varying the use of ALBUM for different types of discs seems complicated
to me.  If you have WORK, then a normal ALBUM title pins it down fairly
closely.  I believe that, as you suggested years ago, that MOVEMENT is
also essential, not least since it then lets parts of WORKS be pinned
down as well, such as a disk of various operatic arias.  I also often
compare a WORK MOVEMENT between different performers. The difficulty I
then found was if WORK isn't the same as ALBUM, WORKARTIST seems
somewhat inevitable for the same reason that ALBUMARTIST is needed. Just
my own view of course.  I do like the idea of RECORDING, and then each
user could tailor the contents to their own needs,



LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9


dolodobendan wrote: 
> 
> The album tag is crucial. Take any "artist focused" disc, like Callas
> arias. Every track has a different composer, there's more often than not
> no complete work to find. WORK here is "Extracts". If I want to listen
> to that disc, I have to find that disc. There's no work to be found
> here.
> 
What Im trying to understand is if ALBUM could be used for recording on
discs that contain full works and for album title for other albums (like
your Callas arias example).
That way we wouldnt have to add support for RECORDING as a separate
tag. Support for WORK would still be needed of course.

dolodobendan wrote: 
> 
> As for the library IDs. If I click "Clear library and rescan everything"
> the IDs change (they shift) and the CB menus are empty and I have to
> create them all over again. That's why I always wipe the cache. Maybe
> something changed and this problem is gone now. I could give it a try
> this weekend.

Are you referring to Multi Library plugin library ids
(multilibrary_track table) or ids for the built-in libraries supported
in LMS 7.9 (library_tracks table) ?
Im guessing you are talking about the Multi Library plugin libraries
since you are referring to Custom Browse ?



Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(https://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User_Erland.html)
*Starting with LMS 8.0 I no longer support my plugins/applets* ('see
here for more information'
(https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?49483-Announce-New-versions-of-erlands-plugins=998836=1#post998836)
)

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

jeroen2 wrote: 
> But there is also a "browse by work" option within the album listing,
> which I think is why it makes sense to tag larger albums with a "work"
> tag. 
> 
> I don't use it a lot, but here's an example from a large box set in
> Qobuz.
> 

Is this using a custom browse menu you created?  Work is not a known tag
in LMS as far as I know.  I don't understand what you mean about tagging
a 'larger' album with a work tag, unless you mean replacing the album
name with just one Work.  Sorry, I'm being dim.

LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9



But there is also a "browse by work" option within the album listing,
which I think is why it makes sense to tag larger albums with a "work"
tag. 

I don't use it a lot, but here's an example from a large box set in
Qobuz.

3313733138


+---+
|Filename: Screenshot 2021-01-28 at 18.29.25.jpg|
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33138|
+---+


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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9


dolodobendan wrote: 
> Right now I have to choose if it's a solo work or not. Depending on that
> choice RECORDING will be created. I don't think it would be very
> difficult to mash everything in one algorithm.
> 
> The album tag is crucial. Take any "artist focused" disc, like Callas
> arias. Every track has a different composer, there's more often than not
> no complete work to find. WORK here is "Extracts". If I want to listen
> to that disc, I have to find that disc. There's no work to be found
> here.
I still assign the WORK if it is an extract, and assign the appropriate
MOVEMENT (there almost always is a named movement/aria/etc of some
sort).

> And it's both WORK and RECORDING that is important. You cannot mash them
> together. You need both to identify, well, a recording: Hélène Grimaud
> (1996) pretty sure is a good choice, but what is it? That's what I'm
> saying: These two are the crucial tags to browse classical music. More
> tags might be fun, but these are essential (in addition to already
> supported tags like composer, genre etc., obviously) 
WORK ARTIST effectively does the same for me, except if there are
multiple versions by the same person of the same WORK.  We all have
different ways of trying to do much the same thing :)

> As for the library IDs. If I click "Clear library and rescan everything"
> the IDs change (they shift) and the CB menus are empty and I have to
> create them all over again. That's why I always wipe the cache. Maybe
> something changed and this problem is gone now. I could give it a try
> this weekend.
If still the case that rules out that as a solution for me using my
tailored Custom Browse menus.



LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

2021-01-28 Thread dolodobendan

erland wrote: 
> Can RECORDING always be created based on other tags using a predefined
> algorithm?
> Or are there cases where a human would need to manually phrase the value
> of RECORDING?

Right now I have to choose if it's a solo work or not. Depending on that
choice RECORDING will be created. I don't think it would be very
difficult to mash everything in one algorithm.

erland wrote: 
> Is album critical for browsing classical music or would it make sense to
> use ALBUM tag to represent the recording, so for a mixed composer/work
> release you would use multiple ALBUM tags ? Basically use ALBUM tag for
> the information previously mentioned in the thread as RECORDING if Im
> getting this right ?
> 
> I get the feeling that the actual packaging on a CD is less interesting
> for classical music compared to pop/rock music. For classical I suspect
> the interesting group of tracks to keep together is rather the work or
> recording.
> 
> The album could still make sense when structuring the files on disc to
> be able to find the physical CD a track was ripped from but I suspect it
> isnt really critical when selecting what to play.

The album tag is crucial. Take any "artist focused" disc, like Callas
arias. Every track has a different composer, there's more often than not
no complete work to find. WORK here is "Extracts". If I want to listen
to that disc, I have to find that disc. There's no work to be found
here.

And it's both WORK and RECORDING that is important. You cannot mash them
together. You need both to identify, well, a recording: Hélène Grimaud
(1996) pretty sure is a good choice, but what is it? That's what I'm
saying: These two are the crucial tags to browse classical music. More
tags might be fun, but these are essential (in addition to already
supported tags like composer, genre etc., obviously)

As for the library IDs. If I click "Clear library and rescan everything"
the IDs change (they shift) and the CB menus are empty and I have to
create them all over again. That's why I always wipe the cache. Maybe
something changed and this problem is gone now. I could give it a try
this weekend.

QLMS 8.2@2.21 x64 (digimaster) with perl 5.30.1 / QNAP 469L QTS 4.3.4

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

erland wrote: 
> All solutions are optimized for different things. Custom Browse is
> optimized for static menu hierarchies which means that you need to spend
> significant time to think and configure it in advance and and get more
> menus at top level. Material is optimized for a more dynamic behavior,
> which means less time to configure and less menus on top level but maybe
> a bit more clicks when using it. I guess its a matter of taste which
> kind of solution people prefer.

This was one of my reasons to switch to LMS in the first place (was
previously using iTunes-Airplay, categories and genres were quickly
becoming a mess there). :p

But happy to continue using Custom Browse until I discover something
else that works for me. I do like to be able to carefully manage our
collection in a way that helps me quickly pick out what to play today.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9



Having thought a bit more about this I think there are two aspects, one
of which, with work, could be standard, the other would require the
equivalent of Custom Scan.

1. Build a totally flexible menu

Erland's Browse menus allow one to go from one tag to the next, which
could be the same tag type where there are multiples, or any other in
pretty well any order.   So one can go from Genre to Genre to Conductor
to Album Artist, and so on.  Whilst maybe not as easy to use as rigid
menus, it pretty much solves most other ways of finding and playing
tracks.  

>From a usablility point of view I suspect the main issue is how to list
both the "next tag" options, and the tracks or albums that match the
current selection.  Erland's browse menu lists albums that match so far,
followed by the 'next tags'.  I'd be tempted to reverse this, since
having selected only one tag, the list of matches can be very long
indeed, so the 'next tags' are harder to find.

The 'next tags' list at each step contains all the possible tags that
have more than one match for the selections so far.  So if there a
multiple Artists on a track, select the first Artist, and Artists still
appears at the next level.  IF there are no further matches, the Artist
'next tag' disappears.  If all the Dates (Year) are the same, Date does
not appear.  And so on.

2. Add non-standard tags to this set-up.

For classical and other people who want or need to include additional
tags, allow users to add new tags, and have them incorporated into the
flexible setup, which is what Custom Scan does for the Custom Browse
flexible menu.  I don't know which of Custom Scan or Custom Browse is
the more fragile in terms of long term developments that might break
them.  If Custom Scan is more likely to survive, then a limited
long-life Custom Browse that can add the selected extra tags into the
flexible menus would be enough.

I have no doubt all of this might be hard,  but Erland has laid the
groundwork on the flexible menu, and custom scan.

Below are two images from upplay using minimserver.  On the top you can
see the trail of selections so far, to a Conductor of Debussy, and then
to matching Works.

3313533136


+---+
|Filename: Screenshot from 2021-01-28 15-04-01.png  |
|Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33136|
+---+


LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

jeroen2 wrote: 
>  
> Essentially, and maybe my use case is indeed unique, I create genres
> that contain between 10 and 50 albums per genre. So that's a group of
> albums for me, like one shelve in a physical library. So I really don't
> want or need to select any other options anymore once I'm at that level,
> which is why shallowgenre works great for me there. 
> 
> With the new functionality to be introduced in Material 2.2.0 ('#19'
> (https://github.com/CDrummond/lms-material/blob/master/ChangeLog)) I
> would not be needing MultiLibrary anymore (the grouped genres pinned
> from my homescreen will come from there), but I would still use
> shallowgenre for listing the genres at the level below.

I guess you can stay with the unsupported Custom Browse as long as it
works, thats probably the best solution if you want everything to work
exactly as Custom Browse does. Eventually its bound to break but maybe
you have switched to use something else than LMS at that time.

All solutions are optimized for different things. Custom Browse is
optimized for static menu hierarchies which means that you need to spend
significant time to think and configure it in advance and and get more
menus at top level. Material is optimized for a more dynamic behavior,
which means less time to configure and less menus on top level but maybe
a bit more clicks when using it. I guess its a matter of taste which
kind of solution people prefer.

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(https://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User_Erland.html)
*Starting with LMS 8.0 I no longer support my plugins/applets* ('see
here for more information'
(https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?49483-Announce-New-versions-of-erlands-plugins=998836=1#post998836)
)

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

erland wrote: 
> Might be worth to check in the Material thread if the Material developer
> is interested to add an All Albums entry at the top after selecting a
> genre in standard genres menu. That way you more or less have the same
> possibilities as Custom Browse shallowgenres menu, you just have to
> select All Albums as an intermediate step after selecting genre to get
> the list of albums.

That's already there, see his response below. But doesn't create the
same experience as I have now. 

Essentially, and maybe my use case is indeed unique, I create genres
that contain between 10 and 50 albums per genre. So that's a group of
albums for me, like one shelve in a physical library. So I really don't
want or need to select any other options anymore once I'm at that level,
which is why shallowgenre works great for me there. 

With the new functionality to be introduced in Material 2.2.0 ('#19'
(https://github.com/CDrummond/lms-material/blob/master/ChangeLog)) I
would not be needing MultiLibrary anymore (the grouped genres pinned
from my homescreen will come from there), but I would still use
shallowgenre for listing the genres at the level below.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9


erland wrote: 
> There is:
> 
> - shallowgenres (Genre Albums) which provides a menu structure like
> //, typically used if you like genre browsing in
> a limited library and want to select album directly after selecting
> genre. I think LMS core forces you to select both an artist and genre
> before albums are listed but in at least iPeng there is an All Albums
> item after selecting the genre which can be used to not have to select
> an artist. By limiting shallowgenres based menu to classical music you
> effectively have a way to browse one level sub genres within classical
> music.
> 
> - subgenres (Genres/Sub Genres) which provides a menu structure like
> , typically used in a really
> large library where you have spent extensive time to tag your music with
> multiple genre levels. In standard LMS core you would have to flatten
> you genre tags so you combine main genre and sub genre into one genre
> tag separated with space or similar. The standard LMS way of doing it is
> more likely to work in other software, but is only useful if you have a
> strict hierarchy of genres. If you dont know if you like to select the
> main genre or sub genre first you will need something like the subgenres
> menu in Custom Browse. In the Custom Browse menu you can specify which
> genres you like to see on the first level, which is useful if you have a
> strict hierarchy.
> 
> There are more genre templates than these but I think the above are the
> ones thats most different compared to LMS core.
Thanks - there's always something more to learn, particularly about your
plugins :)



LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

2021-01-28 Thread cpd73


erland wrote: 
> Might be worth to check in the Material thread if the Material developer
> is interested to add an All Albums entry at the top after selecting a
> genre in standard genres menu. That way you more or less have the same
> possibilities as Custom Browse shallowgenres menu, you just have to
> select All Albums as an intermediate step after selecting genre to get
> the list of albums.

When you browse into a genre, Material will show a list allowing you to
chose from:


-  All Artists (if LMS configugured for Artists and Album Artists)
-  Album Artists (if LMS configugured for Artists and Album Artists)
-  Artists (if LMS -not- configugured for Artists and Album Artists)
-  Albums
-  Random Albums
-  Composers (if genre matches Material's composer genre list)
-  Conductors (if genre matches Material's conductor genre list)
-  Bands (if genre matches Material's bandgenre list)
  

So here 'Albums' is the same as 'All Albums'



*Material debug:* 1. Launch via http: //SERVER:9000/material/?debug=json
(Use http: //SERVER:9000/material/?debug=json,cometd to also see update
messages, e.g. play queue) 2. Open browser's developer tools 3. Open
console tab in developer tools 4. REQ/RESP messages sent to/from LMS
will be logged here.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9


mherger wrote: 
> 
> 
> > Is there any control which order the libraries are refreshed after a
> > rescan ?
> 
> There at least must have been a concept of priority at some point:
> https://github.com/Logitech/slimserver/blob/f8b2e48ca9d7f908fde991f4e4a1f3ac32ca19f3/Slim/Music/VirtualLibraries.pm#L37
> 
> That said... I guess you'd have to modify the prefs file to define it if
> 
> you don't use a plugin to define the library.
> 
Should be good enough for someone to implement a not in library
library creation plugin. The plugin just have to make it possible to set
the priority or set it high so its libraries are refreshed after all
other libraries. Feels like a fairly simple plugin for someone who wants
to do some coding.



Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(https://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User_Erland.html)
*Starting with LMS 8.0 I no longer support my plugins/applets* ('see
here for more information'
(https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?49483-Announce-New-versions-of-erlands-plugins=998836=1#post998836)
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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9


jeroen2 wrote: 
> 
> In principle I might be able to get rid of MultiLibrary once the updated
> Material Skin becomes available. 'See post here. '
> (https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?109624-Announce-Material-Skin=1004496=1#post1004496)
> But if that means loosing shallowgenre I will not do that.
> 

Might be worth to check in the Material thread if the Material developer
is interested to add an All Albums entry at the top after selecting a
genre in standard genres menu. That way you more or less have the same
possibilities as Custom Browse shallowgenres menu, you just have to
select All Albums as an intermediate step after selecting genre to get
the list of albums.



Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(https://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User_Erland.html)
*Starting with LMS 8.0 I no longer support my plugins/applets* ('see
here for more information'
(https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?49483-Announce-New-versions-of-erlands-plugins=998836=1#post998836)
)

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9



PasTim wrote: 
> You've got me there.  I can't find "shallowgenre" anywhere in Custom
> Browse.

Maybe it's called "Genre Albums"...? I think it's one of the default
menu templates. 

PasTim wrote: 
> I have multiple genres on all my classical tracks.
I also use multiple genres on all classical albums. Even some of the
newer stuff (but still based on Bach) can be tagged both as "electronic"
and as "classical Bach". (Since "electronic" is a subgenre of
"everything else" those albums show up in two places.)

I use MultiLibrary to group genres, so the actual tagged genres only
show up in the second level navigation:
> Genre (actually MultiLibrary grouped genres) > Genre (the actual
genres tagged) > Albums (in cover view)

In principle I might be able to get rid of MultiLibrary once the updated
Material Skin becomes available. 'See post here. '
(https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?109624-Announce-Material-Skin=1004496=1#post1004496)
But if that means loosing shallowgenre I will not do that.



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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

PasTim wrote: 
> I believe using Album for Work is quite common. It avoids the need for
> extra tags for Work, Movement and WorkArtist.  I wanted to preserve the
> concept of Album, since I quite often play all of an Album containing
> several multiple-track Works.

Wouldnt the Albums menu become useless if you put work in ALBUM tag ?
Feels like there would be a lot of duplicates if you own several
different recordings of the same work ?
Maybe classical people doing this doesnt use the Albums menu and
instead navigate via Artists or Genres menu ? In this case it would make
sense to put Work in ALBUM tag as long as you navigate via
conductor/artist and not via composer. If navigating via composer it
feels like you are going to end up with duplicates in similar way as in
Albums menu.

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(https://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User_Erland.html)
*Starting with LMS 8.0 I no longer support my plugins/applets* ('see
here for more information'
(https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?49483-Announce-New-versions-of-erlands-plugins=998836=1#post998836)
)

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

PasTim wrote:
> You've got me there. I can't find "shallowgenre" anywhere in Custom
> Browse. I have multiple genres on all my classical tracks.

There is:

- shallowgenres (Genre Albums) which provides a menu structure like
//, typically used if you like genre browsing in
a limited library and want to select album directly after selecting
genre. I think LMS core forces you to select both an artist and genre
before albums are listed but in at least iPeng there is an All Albums
item after selecting the genre which can be used to not have to select
an artist. By limiting shallowgenres based menu to classical music you
effectively have a way to browse one level sub genres within classical
music.

- subgenres (Genres/Sub Genres) which provides a menu structure like
, typically used in a really
large library where you have spent extensive time to tag your music with
multiple genre levels. In standard LMS core you would have to flatten
you genre tags so you combine main genre and sub genre into one genre
tag separated with space or similar. The standard LMS way of doing it is
more likely to work in other software, but is only useful if you have a
strict hierarchy of genres. If you dont know if you like to select the
main genre or sub genre first you will need something like the subgenres
menu in Custom Browse. In the Custom Browse menu you can specify which
genres you like to see on the first level, which is useful if you have a
strict hierarchy.

There are more genre templates than these but I think the above are the
ones thats most different compared to LMS core.

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
Developer of 'many plugins/applets'
(https://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/User_Erland.html)
*Starting with LMS 8.0 I no longer support my plugins/applets* ('see
here for more information'
(https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?49483-Announce-New-versions-of-erlands-plugins=998836=1#post998836)
)

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9


erland wrote: 
> Is album critical for browsing classical music or would it make sense to
> use ALBUM tag to represent the recording, so for a mixed composer/work
> release you would use multiple ALBUM tags ? Basically use ALBUM tag for
> the information previously mentioned in the thread as RECORDING if Im
> getting this right ?
> 
> I get the feeling that the actual packaging on a CD is less interesting
> for classical music compared to pop/rock music. For classical I suspect
> the interesting group of tracks to keep together is rather the work or
> recording.
> 
> The album could still make sense when structuring the files on disc to
> be able to find the physical CD a track was ripped from but I suspect it
> isnt really critical when selecting what to play.
I believe using Album for Work is quite common. It avoids the need for
extra tags for Work, Movement and WorkArtist.  I wanted to preserve the
concept of Album, since I quite often play all of an Album containing
several multiple-track Works.



LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

jeroen2 wrote: 
> Shallowgenres comes with Custom Browse (and I think is also implemented
> in MultiLibrary). See below for my menus. 
> I have about 400 albums divided in 4 toplevel genres and 20 subgenres. 
> 
You've got me there.  I can't find "shallowgenre" anywhere in Custom
Browse.  I have multiple genres on all my classical tracks.

LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

erland wrote: 
> Would you be able to live with similar browsing features that you get
> with MinimServer and foobar2000 in case my plugins stops working ?
> Just asking to understand if we have a minimum feature set that could be
> the start of something new. Trying to solve it all is likely going to be
> too much work for someone to get interested in doing something so I
> think the key is to find the baby steps that takes us into the right
> direction.
> How are you able to browse with MinimServer and/or foobar2000 ?
With foobar one can define 'filters' to do pretty much select anything
you want.  So I have all sorts of filters, one two and even 3 level
filters (eg composer/work/workartist, conductor/composer/work, etc).  I
primarily use it to check for errors in my tags.  I can also search
explicitly on sort forms of all the main tags, find works with multiple
composers, and so on.  It's a great analysis tool,  just not so hot at
actually playing music on my various devices, and it can't play on my
Touch players.

Minimserver is also very good, but again can't use the Touch players.  I
can access it from various UPnP devices, including upplay on linux PCs,
and it has a reasonable menu capability, not unlike your 'pick which tag
you want to start with' menus, then filtering down to what you want to
play.  It can use all my custom tags in the menu.  For reasons I am now
unsure of I had to effectively duplicate Work to Group - I think it was
to allow multiple versions of a work to appear on one album and be
selected correctly (so the Group has a suffix added to the Work name to
differentiate multiple entries).  It's the most usable alternative to
LMS that I've found for playing music.

So, at a minimum, I need Work, Movement, WorkArtist and Rating tags, and
selection across most artist-type and rating tags.  If not in specific
menus then using a 'Browse tag' type menu.  Does that make sense?

LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9



PasTim wrote: 
> Am I right in understanding that you have defined your own custom tag
> 'shallowgenre'?

Shallowgenres comes with Custom Browse (and I think is also implemented
in MultiLibrary)

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9



jeroen2 wrote: 
> For me in classical music the actual CD the tracks came from is very
> relevant. I do tend to only play full albums (CDs) and never individual
> tracks, regardless of the genre. Although I can see how the new online
> music market is changing the way artists release their work, I do still
> think most of them make a conscious effort to 'curate' their work into a
> CD like format, which I would then like to play from beginning to end. 
> 
> I've been following this discussion with interest because I also still
> use the Custom Browse and Custom Library. My main navigation is through
> "shallowgenre" though:
> >Genre >Subgenre >Albums  (where Genre can be Classical with subgenres
> Classical Piano, Classical Bach, etc...) 
> 
> My main reason to do this is that I tend to be more visually oriented
> when choosing what music to play. So rather then coming up with the name
> of the work or the name of the performer I prefer scrolling through
> album covers.. 
> 
> So if I decide to rework my menus using the new functionality in LMS 8
> (in stead of using the plugins) it would need to include an alternative
> for shallowgenre.
Am I right in understanding that you have defined your own custom tag
'shallowgenre'?



LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

erland wrote: 
> Is album critical for browsing classical music or would it make sense to
> use ALBUM tag to represent the recording, so for a mixed composer/work
> release you would use multiple ALBUM tags ? Basically use ALBUM tag for
> the information previously mentioned in the thread as RECORDING if Im
> getting this right ?
> 

For me in classical music the actual CD the tracks came from is very
relevant. I do tend to only play full albums (CDs) and never individual
tracks, regardless of the genre. Although I can see how the new online
music market is changing the way artists release their work, I do still
think most of them make a conscious effort to 'curate' their work into a
CD like format, which I would then like to play from beginning to end. 

I've been following this discussion with interest because I also still
use the Custom Browse and Custom Library. My main navigation is through
"shallowgenre" though:
>Genre >Subgenre >Albums  (where Genre can be Classical with subgenres
Classical Piano, Classical Bach, etc...) 

My main reason to do this is that I tend to be more visually oriented
when choosing what music to play. So rather then coming up with the name
of the work or the name of the performer I prefer scrolling through
album covers.. 

So if I decide to rework my menus using the new functionality in LMS 8
(in stead of using the plugins) it would need to include an alternative
for shallowgenre.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

2021-01-27 Thread Michael Herger


One open question is if the library id in the database for a library
ever changes, for example after rescan or upgrade of LMS. It’s important


IDs should remain. Plugins can define their own. Virtual libraries 
created using advanced search have something like advSrch_1421096676 - 
where the number is a timestamp. That's my personal library. It's been 
around for six years, and has served me well on several installations (4-5).



Is there any control which order the libraries are refreshed after a
rescan ?


There at least must have been a concept of priority at some point:
https://github.com/Logitech/slimserver/blob/f8b2e48ca9d7f908fde991f4e4a1f3ac32ca19f3/Slim/Music/VirtualLibraries.pm#L37

That said... I guess you'd have to modify the prefs file to define it if 
you don't use a plugin to define the library.


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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9


mherger wrote: 
> I'm sorry, I was too busy the past few days to follow up with this 
> lengthy discussion...
> 
One open question is if the library id in the database for a library
ever changes, for example after rescan or upgrade of LMS. Its important
if anyone would be interested to use the id in my SQL based plugins to
limit content to a virtual library. I guess its set once and never
changes but it would be good to know for sure. 

The remaining part of the discussion is really about additional browse
menus for classical music, not sure its worth for you to get involved in
that at this time unless you have planned to add improvements for
classical music to the core of LMS.

mherger wrote: 
> 
> 
> > Could make sense to add support for creating a library defined as
> ânot
> > in library=xxxâ or ânot in searchâ. I suspect that would be fairly
> easy
> > to add to LMS core and it can be quite useful if you want to divide
> your
> > main library and want a library that contain the remaining parts.
> Donâ[emoji769]t
> 
> This certainly can be done. But it might need the help of a plugin to do
> 
> it. You can implement any logic you want, as long as it creates a 
> library ID -> track ID tuple.

Is there any control which order the libraries are refreshed after a
rescan ?

For a plugin to implement a not in library logic it has to be sure
that its done after all normal libraries have been refreshed. 

I guess a hack would be for a plugin to read the prefs and execute the
sql for dependent libraries itself to ensure they are refreshed first
but that would mean that they are refreshed multiple times.



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*Starting with LMS 8.0 I no longer support my plugins/applets* ('see
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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

2021-01-27 Thread Michael Herger

I'm sorry, I was too busy the past few days to follow up with this 
lengthy discussion...



Could make sense to add support for creating a library defined as “not
in library=xxx” or “not in search”. I suspect that would be fairly easy
to add to LMS core and it can be quite useful if you want to divide your
main library and want a library that contain the remaining parts. Don’t


This certainly can be done. But it might need the help of a plugin to do 
it. You can implement any logic you want, as long as it creates a 
library ID -> track ID tuple.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

PasTim wrote: 
> 
> I also have to change Album Names to a consistent form so that I can
> skim through them "Composer - Work(s) - Work Artist(s)" (clearly that
> doesn't work for mixed composer albums, but it helps for others). That's
> one of the reasons why I keep the original SetId.  
> 

Is album critical for browsing classical music or would it make sense to
use ALBUM tag to represent the recording, so for a mixed composer/work
release you would use multiple ALBUM tags ? Basically use ALBUM tag for
the information previously mentioned in the thread as RECORDING if Im
getting this right ?

I get the feeling that the actual packaging on a CD is less interesting
for classical music compared to pop/rock music. For classical I suspect
the interesting group of tracks to keep together is rather the work or
recording.

The album could still make sense when structuring the files on disc to
be able to find the physical CD a track was ripped from but I suspect it
isnt really critical when selecting what to play.

Erland Isaksson ('My homepage' (http://erland.isaksson.info))
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*Starting with LMS 8.0 I no longer support my plugins/applets* ('see
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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9



dolodobendan wrote: 
> I define RECORDING as [Soloist/s=ARTIST / ] Conductor=ARTIST if no
> Soloist / Orchestra=BAND[ (RECYEAR)]
> 
> RECYEAR is not used in any menu. It's for building RECORDING, nothing
> else. RECORDING depends on the genre:
> 
Can RECORDING always be created based on other tags using a predefined
algorithm?
Or are there cases where a human would need to manually phrase the value
of RECORDING?



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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

PasTim wrote: 
> 
> Looking at Library Views again I'm not sure I can find a way to find
> everything that isn't classical.  The problem is that all Classical
> tracks also have other genres, so 'not Classical' returns everything.
> 

Could make sense to add support for creating a library defined as not
in library=xxx or not in search. I suspect that would be fairly easy
to add to LMS core and it can be quite useful if you want to divide your
main library and want a library that contain the remaining parts. Dont
remember if advanced search is able to search for not in genre=xxx, if
it supports that its also a solution. This kind of functionality can be
very useful to get rid of music you dont want to see when browsing or
playing random mixes so to me if would make sense to add support for it
in the core if it isnt there already. Often it can be easier to do a
search/query for the stuff you want to skip than the stuff you want to
include.

Michael will have to say if its feasible.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

PasTim wrote: 
> There are additional tags for use with MinimServer so that it can at
> least recognise Works (as Groups), acting as a backup to LMS. 
> foobar2000 can also make some sense of it all. 
> 

Would you be able to live with similar browsing features that you get
with MinimServer and foobar2000 in case my plugins stops working ?
Just asking to understand if we have a minimum feature set that could be
the start of something new. Trying to solve it all is likely going to be
too much work for someone to get interested in doing something so I
think the key is to find the baby steps that takes us into the right
direction.
How are you able to browse with MinimServer and/or foobar2000 ?

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9


PasTim wrote: 
> What we have for the moment works really, really well. 
> 
Is the custom tags you use understood and used by any other software
except for LMS ? Which one ?
Is there any integration with online sources in any tagging tools to set
the custom tags semi automatically or is it something you need to set
completely manually yourself ?

Im asking because if the tags are only used by LMS it might actually be
preferred to store them in a database or similar instead of storing them
in the tags. Storing them in a database would make it a lot simpler to
build a managing app that could make it a lot easier to categorize your
library. Could be a separate app from LMS developed in a modern
programming language and integrated with a small Perl plugin. Kind of
similar to what we tried to do with Social Music Discovery
(socialmucicdiscovery.org) a long time ago.

PasTim wrote: 
> 
> I would guess that everyone else with some interest in this sort of
> thing would have their own ideas and thousands of tracks already tagged,
> so getting agreement might be tricky, to say the least.
> 
> I suspect I am an outlier.
> 
You might be right but unless classical lovers can agree on something it
also means that when my plugins stops working (which eventually is going
to happen) you dont have a working system at all to browse you music.
Or is there any competing system thats able to use and browse your
classical library using your custom tags ?
Its probably easier to attract the interest of a developer now when
this community is still alive than wait a few years until my plugins
have stopped working even more people have moved on to something else.

PasTim wrote: 
> 
> As I may have said on another thread my listening is becoming limited
> due to hearing problems.
> 
I completely understand if you personally dont want to invest
significant time into it. Im posting this in the forum in the hope to
wake up other people with similar interest, hopefully there is someone
out there with time and interest to do something about the situation. I
wish I could do something myself because it is an interesting challenge
but unfortunately my family situation doesnt allow it right now. It
would probably also be preferred if it was done by someone interested in
classical music and not by someone like me who owns about 10 classical
albums. I selected the path to make something very configurable because
that could be used for other things too since I didnt really have much
use for a dedicated classical music plugin myself.



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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

2021-01-27 Thread dolodobendan

PasTim wrote: 
> Interesting.  How do you define 'RECORDING'?  I use 'WORK ARTIST' as
> conductor in symphonies,  soloist in Concertos and Vocal works, and so
> on.  I do have several recordings by the same Work Artist on the same
> Work, but I live with it.  The track info includes the year (I use year
> of recording, NOT the album year which I don't care about), which
> usually means I know which is which.

I define RECORDING as [Soloist/s=ARTIST / ] Conductor=ARTIST if no
Soloist / Orchestra=BAND[ (RECYEAR)]

RECYEAR is not used in any menu. It's for building RECORDING, nothing
else. RECORDING depends on the genre:

Symphony: Keith Clark / Pacific SO (1981)
Piano Concerto: Hamish Milne / Brabbins / BBC Scottish SO (1999)
Violin Sonata: Viktoria Mullova & Pyotr Anderszewski (1994)
Opera: Pons, Stefano, Valdengo (1950, live) This is not perfect, but I
want to keep it as short as possible.

It's just one click in mp3tag to create or change RECORDING.

QLMS 8.2@2.21 x64 (digimaster) with perl 5.30.1 / QNAP 469L QTS 4.3.4

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

2021-01-27 Thread PasTim



dolodobendan wrote: 
> >   >   > 
  - Menus need one or better two additional levels (Menu example:
  > Genre -> Composer -> Work -> Recording)
  - At least two new tags are needed: WORK and RECORDING (or call it
  > work artist, but good luck with trying that with the aforementioned
  > 9th symph and Karajan)
  > > > 
> 
> I'm trying to build a simple plugin that lets you define the levels
> like this
> 
> 1. Menu name [ TEST ] 
> |_> Level 1 [ COMPOSER ] -> Level 2 [ WORK ] -> Level 3 [ RECORDING
> ]-> Level 4 [ ]
> |_> Level 1 [ GENRE ] -> Level 2 [ COMPOSER ] -> Level 3 [ WORK ]
> -> Level 4 [ RECORDING ]
> |_> Level 1 [ ARTIST ] -> Level 2 [ COMPOSER ] -> Level 3 [ WORK ]
> -> Level 4 [ RECORDING ]
> |_> Level 1 [ ] -> Level 2 [ ] -> Level 3 [ ] -> Level 4 [ ]
> 2. Menu name [ ] 
> |_> Level 1 [ ] -> Level 2 [ ] -> Level 3 [ ] -> Level 4 [ ]
> 
> and then automatically includes the custom tags used here in the scan
> and builds the menus. But it's progressing very slowly as I'm just
> learning perl.
Interesting.  How do you define 'RECORDING'?  I use 'WORK ARTIST' as
conductor in symphonies,  soloist in Concertos and Vocal works, and so
on.  I do have several recordings by the same Work Artist on the same
Work, but I live with it.  The track info includes the year (I use year
of recording, NOT the album year which I don't care about), which
usually means I know which is which.



LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.  
Wireless Xubuntu 20.04 laptop firefox/upplay or Android mobile with
Squeeze-Ctrl/BubbleUPnP controls LMS/Minimserver.

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

2021-01-27 Thread dolodobendan



erland wrote: 
> agree on which features that are missing today.


- Menus need one or better two additional levels (Menu example: Genre
  -> Composer -> Work -> Recording)
- At least two new tags are needed: WORK and RECORDING (or call it
  work artist, but good luck with trying that with the aforementioned
  9th symph and Karajan)
  

I'm trying to build a simple plugin that lets you define the levels like
this

1. Menu name [ TEST ] 
|_> Level 1 [ COMPOSER ] -> Level 2 [ WORK ] -> Level 3 [ RECORDING
]-> Level 4 [ ]
|_> Level 1 [ GENRE ] -> Level 2 [ COMPOSER ] -> Level 3 [ WORK ] ->
Level 4 [ RECORDING ]
|_> Level 1 [ ARTIST ] -> Level 2 [ COMPOSER ] -> Level 3 [ WORK ] ->
Level 4 [ RECORDING ]
|_> Level 1 [ ] -> Level 2 [ ] -> Level 3 [ ] -> Level 4 [ ]
2. Menu name [ ] 
|_> Level 1 [ ] -> Level 2 [ ] -> Level 3 [ ] -> Level 4 [ ]

and then automatically includes the custom tags used here in the scan
and builds the menus. But it's progressing very slowly as I'm just
learning perl.



QLMS 8.2@2.21 x64 (digimaster) with perl 5.30.1 / QNAP 469L QTS 4.3.4

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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=106488

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Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9

2021-01-27 Thread PasTim

erland wrote: 
> Which custom tags scanned with Custom Scan plugins are used with your
> menus ? Is it just WORK and MOVEMENT ?
> 
> Do you use all 22 menus or is there some you can live without ?
> 
> 
> 
> Completely agree, thatÂs why I said that I think customizing Custom
> Browse SQL configuration to use virtual libraries is wasted time. People
> that rely on Custom Browse/Custom Scan need to specify more clearly how
> they use them so itÂs possible for someone to implement new
> functionality in LMS core or new third party plugin to offer the
> required functionality. A new plugin for classic music with the most
> important features could make sense, IÂm pretty sure there are more
> people interested in this. It can be significantly more hard coded
> compared to Custom Browse/Custom Scan which means less code/work, as
> long as people interested in classical music can agree whatÂs needed. I
> suspect adding support for classical music is going to be too much work
> to be included in LMS core but possibly some additions could be done in
> the core to make it easier for the plugin developer.
> 
> Using virtual library to separate classical music from all other music
> still makes sense but that does not solve your problem.
> 
> 
> I suspect the library id doesnÂt change but Michael or someone else
> need to say for sure. However, I still think your best solution is to
> continue using Multi Library (as long as it works) if you need all these
> menus and instead spend the time to gather people interested in
> classical music and agree on which features that are missing today.
Thanks, agreed.

I have Custom Tags for Work, Movement, Work Artist, SetId (the number on
the LP/CD/etc), Source (CD, LP, DL for Download, etc), Rating, and
Created (date the entry was created in my library).  I also use Mixed
Tags.  The menus mainly use Work, Movement, Work Artist and Rating,
although I have another general one that searches by SetId.

I suspect that the first 5 and one or two others would work with library
views (particularly now we have Additional Browse Modes), but the rest
depend on custom (and mixed) tags.  They are, I think, fairly self
explanatory.  Composers by Artist provides a search by (Track) Artist,
to Composer, to Works, to Movements  The track rating Works and
Movements are based on 90+ being top rated,  80+ being rated, and 60
being 'to be investigated' (new stuff I haven't got round to enough).
Menus generally allow me to Play All once the likely number of tracks
might be manageable (but that doesn't always work out well!).

I use most of the menus below Browse depending on what I feel like or
what takes my fancy.

I have 28,000+ classical tracks, and 3,200+ others.  Retagging according
to another plan would be really quite difficult.  All my tagging is done
with the help of quite extensive programming in the taggers (puddletag
and Mp3tag).  For instance, Work and Movement are combined to make
title, and also the file name. Sort forms of most tags are created,
taking account of all the usual issues to do with prefixes like 'The'
and so on.  There are additional tags for use with MinimServer so that
it can at least recognise Works (as Groups), acting as a backup to LMS. 
foobar2000 can also make some sense of it all.  

I have to ignore manufacturer's tags because they are so inconsistent. 
I am nerd enough to want Beethoven's Symphony number 9 to always be Work
"Symphony No.9 in Dmi Op.125", and each movement to always have the
exact same name, eg "Symphony No.9 in Dmi Op.125 - 1. Allegro ma non
troppo, un poco maestoso" .  That way I can select that Work by name and
find all performances by each Work Artist.  I also have to change Album
Names to a consistent form so that I can skim through them "Composer -
Work(s) - Work Artist(s)" (clearly that doesn't work for mixed composer
albums, but it helps for others). That's one of the reasons why I keep
the original SetId.  

Looking at Library Views again I'm not sure I can find a way to find
everything that isn't classical.  The problem is that all Classical
tracks also have other genres, so 'not Classical' returns everything.

As I may have said on another thread my listening is becoming limited
due to hearing problems.   I don't know if I could put in the required
effort to specify and/or develop something new.  What we have for the
moment works really, really well.  I would guess that everyone else with
some interest in this sort of thing would have their own ideas and
thousands of tracks already tagged, so getting agreement might be
tricky, to say the least.

I suspect I am an outlier.

I'd be interested in Michael's views.

LMS 8.1 on PC, Xubuntu 20.04, FLACs 16->24 bit, 44.1->192kbps.  2
Touches & EDO.
LMS plugin UPnP/DLNA Bridge to MF M1 CLiC (A308CR amp & ESLs) & Marantz
CR603 UPnP renderers.  
Also Minimserver & Upplay to same & to upmpdcli/mpd PC renderers.  
Squeezelite to Meridian USB Explorer DAC to PC speakers/headphones.

Re: [SlimDevices: SqueezeCenter] How to use Virtual Libraries in LMS 7.9