date:20050708


Hi Ryan


Keith wrote:

And there are people who demand to know: What's all this off-topic 
political crap got to do with BIOFUELS???, which usually turns out 
to be another way of saying they disagree with it and want it 
censored.


Keith, I for one will put in my 2 cents and say quite honestly that 
I wouldn't be glued to my computer reading email updates of this 
list if it weren't for the political discussion.  I live in the 
South Dakota, USA.  Most people here are Red state type of people 
who don't want change as long as there is a conservative in office 
pretending he/she cares.  I love that we can all speak freely, and I 
especially love that I can read what people from around the world 
think, especially about America...I agree with most of them.  I am 
also thankful that you post so many articles, I would not be exposed 
to this information otherwise.  This list has changed my world view 
for the better.  Thank you for your hard work, and thank you to all 
the contributers.


Thanks so much for taking the time to say so, it's much appreciated, 
and you're most welcome.


Best wishes

Keith



Ryan



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Re: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?


Hi Chris


hi, keith.

i have my own 'issues' with the big enviro groups.


http://www.sacbee.com/news/projects/environment/index02.html
Environment, Inc.

http://counterpunch.org/donnelly05242005.html
Michael Donnelly:
May 24, 2005
Behind the Green(back) Curtain

http://counterpunch.org/donnelly05102005.html
Michael Donnelly: From Roadless to Clueless
May 10, 2005
From Roadless to Clueless...
The Great Stillborn Eco-Victory

From John Stauber:

Big environmental organizations, socially responsible investment 
funds, and other groups perpetuate the myth that if we just write 
checks to them, they'll heal the environment, reform the corrupt 
campaign-finance system, protect our freedom of speech, and reign in 
corporate power. This is a dangerous falsehood, because it implies 
that we don't have to sweat and struggle to make democracy work. It's 
so much easier to write a check for twenty-five or fifty dollars than 
it is to integrate our concerns about critical issues into our daily 
lives and organize with our neighbors for democracy.


Many so-called public-interest organizations have become big 
businesses, multinational nonprofit corporations. The PR industry 
knows this and exploits it well with the type of co-optation 
strategies that Duchin recommends. ...


E. Bruce Harrison, one of the most effective public-relations 
practitioners in the business, knows that all too well. He's made a 
lucrative career out of helping polluting companies defeat 
environmental regulations while simultaneously giving the companies a 
green public image. In the industry, they call him the Dean of 
Green. As a longtime opponent of the environmental movement, 
Harrison has developed some interesting insights into its failures. 
He says, The environmental movement is dead. It really died in the 
last fifteen years, from success. I think he's correct. What he 
means is that, in the eighties and nineties, environmentalism became 
a big business, and organizations like the Audubon Society, the 
Wilderness Society, the National Wildlife Federation, the 
Environmental Defense Fund, and the Natural Resources Defense Council 
became competing multi-million-dollar bureaucracies. These 
organizations, Harrison says, seem much more interested in the 
business of greening than in fighting for fundamental social change. 
He points out, for instance, that the Environmental Defense Fund 
(whose executive director makes a quarter of a million dollars a 
year) sat down and cut a deal with McDonald's that was probably worth 
hundreds of millions of dollars in publicity to the fast-food giant, 
because it helped to greenwash its public image.


After years of being hammered by grass-roots environmentalists for 
everything from deforestation to inhumane farming practices to 
contributing to a throwaway culture, McDonald's finally relented on 
something: it did away with its styrofoam clamshell hamburger 
containers. But before the company did this, it entered into a 
partnership with the Environmental Defense Fund and gave that group 
credit for the change. Both sides won in the ensuing PR lovefest. 
McDonald's took one little step in response to grass-roots activists, 
and the Environmental Defense Fund claimed a major victory.


Another problem is that big green groups have virtually no 
accountability to the many thousands of individuals who provide them 
with money. Meanwhile, the grass-roots environmental groups are 
starved of the hundreds of millions of dollars that are raised every 
year by these massive bureaucracies. Over the past two decades, 
they've turned the environmental movement's grass-roots base of 
support into little more than a list of donors they hustle for money 
via direct-mail appeals and telemarketing.


It's getting even worse, because now corporations are directly 
funding groups like the Audubon Society, the Wilderness Society, and 
the National Wildlife Federation. Corporate executives now sit on the 
boards of some of these groups. PR executive Leslie Dach, for 
instance, of the rabidly anti-environmental Edelman PR firm, is on 
the Audubon Society's board of directors. Meanwhile, his PR firm has 
helped lead the wise use assault on environmental regulation


-- WAR ON TRUTH The Secret Battle for the American Mind An Interview 
with John Stauber

http://www.whale.to/m/stauber.html

He's right, as usual, but as I said, you can't paint it with such a 
broad brush, you have to take it case-by-case.



but i have been quite
impressed with one group as i learn more about them.  that would be 
'the nature

conservancy'.  (although, i should point out there was some sort of unsavory
business a few years back wherein certain members of their board profited in
some way from a particular land set-aside; but i gather they instituted more
rigorous auditing/oversight procedures as a result).

i bring this up because i wondered, have there been any critiques of this
group?


I'm glad you like them. I don't know much

Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again


Hi Ken

I am pretty sure that our thinkings on these issues are fairly well 
in line with one another.


I think so too. Sorry If I've been putting you on the defensive, but 
IMO it's important to get it right, especially in the details. I'm 
not always quoting you directly, as with this, from previous:



For what its worth,  I never said anything to the affect that organic farming
couldn't feed everyone.


I know you didn't, and good for you, but it's the usual objection.


Thus with meat is bad and milk is bad.


Keith,

Along with active and informed opposition to factory farming, 
industrialised farming and the food industry, that might be more 
effective than just condemning meat and meat-eaters. Meat is bad 
vs Do you know where that meat you're eating comes from? That 
particular meat.


First, I never said Meat is bad.  What I did say was Frankly, I 
can't imagine meat remaining a staple for much longer as it is just 
not a sustainable food source.  What I should have said is 
Frankly, I can't imagine meat remaining a staple for much longer as 
it is just not a sustainable food staple.


But it IS a sustainable food staple.

Humans can eat meat sustainably when, as we both have stated, it is 
eaten in moderation and is carefully farmed.


As with all other food.

As a matter of fact, my children eat meat and dairy as well.  My 
choice to not eat meat is exactly that - my choice.  I am careful 
about where it comes from, though, when they do eat it.  The point 
being, from the beginning, that we Americans need to learn to eat 
less meat and less dairy.


I don't agree. You need to get your farmers to do farming instead of 
soil mining, and to get your food distribution system and your food 
industry in order. There is no choice, you will have to do it, the 
longer you put it off the worse will be the consequences.


I'm not sure what the conditions are where you live but, where I 
live, try finding anything that doesn't contain either meat or dairy 
at a restaurant.


In regards to the lack of traditionally vegetarian societies, isn't 
the Hindu community primarily meat-free?


No.

In fact aren't there many Asian cultures that incorporate little to 
no meat in their diets and have so for centuries if not longer?


No.

I have come to understand that meat as a food, has in many cultures, 
been more of a matter of convience for ages.


No.

A goat is food that could transport itself and also remains fresh 
without refrigeration until you are ready to eat it.  I may not 
understand your meaning of a traditional vegetarian society or maybe 
I'm just wrong.


There is no traditional society, one that has stood the test of time 
and developed a sustainable way of living, that has been primarily 
vegetarian. The main test of sustainability is how they produced 
their food and their relationship with the soil. See Lowdermilk, for 
instance:

http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#lowdermilk

You'll find societies that ate mostly vegetables and not much meat, 
and others that ate mostly meat and very little vegetables or grain, 
but none that only ate vegetables and grains and no meat. There have 
been such communities within traditional societies, and there still 
are, but on their own they would not be sustainable. ... there is no 
sustainable way to maintain and renew soil fertility for crop growth 
without raising animals too. If you raise them you either have to 
eat them or compete with them. Cows have a calf a year, half of them 
bulls, but you only need one bull for more than a hundred cows, what 
will you do with the rest? For instance.


When properly produced, dairy products are valuable food. They're 
an important part of sustainable agriculture, without them farming 
is less sustainable.


What exactly, makes dairy products more valuable than other foods?


I didn't say they're more valuable than other foods, but I did say 
that without them farming is less sustainable.



Lets say grains for instance?


Would you say that without grains farming is less sustainable? I 
wouldn't. And there are as many problems with grain allergies as with 
milk allergies, or more. On the increase, in both cases, so obviously 
much of it has to do with how it's grown these days, and processed, 
as Kim said, rather than with its inherent qualities.


How much wheat could be grown with the same water that is required 
to produce a gallon of milk?


The point is that if you don't produce the gallon of milk you'll be 
less likely to able to produce the grain sustainably.


I have read quite a bit on this subject.  My findings seem to keep 
indicating that the yields of grains are much higher with same water 
inputs.  And as we all know water is one of our very most valuable 
resources.  Likewise, I have read many times that dairy cattle tend 
to require a considerable amount of medication and I see no 
indication that cattle raised for organic milk are immune to that 
trend.


Wrong. VERY wrong. I've

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Hello Jerry


NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 AMERICANS lost
their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!!


He was writing about the US invasion of Iraq, not about the attack on 
the WTC. You don't think it's important how many innocent Iraqis have 
been killed on Iraqi soil at the hands of the US? Plenty of American 
soldiers have died their too, uselessly, because of a pack of lies, 
as many soldiers are now saying, you don't care about them either?



IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the terrorist
would have been satisfied taking down the WTC!  Hell no they would have kept
on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity.


Um, sorry, but what is the connection between the attack on the WTC 
and the US invasion of Iraq, exactly?


Anyway, if you'd read the first link below, the US invasion and 
occupation have only increased terrorist activity, as so many people 
said it would at the time, and before.



 If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of getting
blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never happenedyou know it
and I know it.


Ignorance isn't what you don't know, it's what you know that ain't 
so. You'll never understand it if you see it in the polarised 
American Clinton vs Bush keyhole view. Both were responsible, but 
especially Bush, as an abundance of evidence, testimony and 
subsequent revelation of sheer neglect has shown, much of it in the 
list archive for your convenience.


Best wishes

Keith



Jerry Turner

- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


See also:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9394.htm
Terror Attacks Near 3,200 in 2004 Count



http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9387.htm

It's imperialism, stupid

By Noam Chomsky

07/05/05 ICH - - IN his June 28 speech, President Bush asserted
that the invasion of Iraq was undertaken as part of a global war
against terror that the United States is waging. In reality, as
anticipated, the invasion increased the threat of terror, perhaps
significantly.

Half-truths, misinformation and hidden agendas have characterised
official pronouncements about US war motives in Iraq from the very
beginning. The recent revelations about the rush to war in Iraq stand
out all the more starkly amid the chaos that ravages the country and
threatens the region and indeed the world.

In 2002 the US and United Kingdom proclaimed the right to invade Iraq
because it was developing weapons of mass destruction. That was the
single question, as stressed constantly by Bush, Prime Minister
Blair and associates. It was also the sole basis on which Bush
received congressional authorisation to resort to force.

The answer to the single question was given shortly after the
invasion, and reluctantly conceded: The WMD didn't exist. Scarcely
missing a beat, the government and media doctrinal system concocted
new pretexts and justifications for going to war.

Americans do not like to think of themselves as aggressors, but raw
aggression is what took place in Iraq, national security and
intelligence analyst John Prados concluded after his careful,
extensive review of the documentary record in his 2004 book
Hoodwinked.

Prados describes the Bush scheme to convince America and the world
that war with Iraq was necessary and urgent as a case study in
government dishonesty ... that required patently untrue public
statements and egregious manipulation of intelligence. The Downing
Street memo, published on May 1 in The Sunday Times of London, along
with other newly available confidential documents, have deepened the
record of deceit.

The memo came from a meeting of Blair's war cabinet on July 23, 2002,
in which Sir Richard Dearlove, head of British foreign intelligence,
made the now-notorious assertion that the intelligence and facts
were being fixed around the policy of going to war in Iraq.

The memo also quotes British Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon as saying
that the US had already begun 'spikes of activity' to put pressure
on the regime.

British journalist Michael Smith, who broke the story of the memo,
has elaborated on its context and contents in subsequent articles.
The spikes of activity apparently included a coalition air campaign
meant to provoke Iraq into some act that could be portrayed as what
the memo calls a casus belli.

Warplanes began bombing in southern Iraq in May 2002 - 10 tons that
month, according to British government figures. A special spike
started in late August (for a September total of 54.6 tons).

In other words, Bush and Blair began their war not in March 2003, as
everyone believed, but at the end of August 2002, six weeks before
Congress approved military action against Iraq, Smith wrote.

The bombing was presented as defensive action to protect coalition
planes in the no-fly zone. Iraq protested to

Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again


todd,

you make an excellent point.  i still remember how stunned i was when i first
heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the
supermarket.


And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good 
pasture. Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's 
what they're fed nothing else much thrives either.


Best

Keith



also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit this
to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to biod), but
there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and
cottonseed.  i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed 
up for other uses

in a more sane food industry (lol, sane food industry = oxymoron?).

-chris b.


In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Reduce

the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than

a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production

and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. 



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Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?

2005-07-08 Thread Gustl Steiner-Zehender

Hallo Keith, Friends,

Thursday, 07 July, 2005, 17:19:26, you wrote:
...snip...
You will notice that Keith, for instance, seems to offer solutions.
KA ... thanks for saying so! Though not always, I can be negative too
KA where necessary, but I do try to point to alternatives. More than 
KA that I'd say I'm trying to provide useful information. This forum and 
KA these issues are all about empowerment, IMHO, but there's hundreds of 
KA billions spent every year on PR, advertising and all the other forms 
KA of message massage to try to prevent exactly that, empowerment. And 
KA perhaps especially around anything to do with fossil-fuels. Lots of 
KA blind alleys, much confusion and frustration, and here in the 
KA Information Age most of the information is just noise and smoke to 
KA keep you baffled. Good information helps, it's empowering.
...snip...

I  have only been reading sporadically as I am not yet fully shipshape
and  Bristol fashion but there is a place for people who recognize the
problems and point them out without solutions as long as they are just
doing  that,  pointing  the  problems  out,  recognizing them, but not
attacking   randomly.   Sometimes   we  have  a  difficult  time  even
recognizing  the  real  root cause of something and we go for treating
symptoms rather than curing the disease. It is a matter of how and why
it  is  done,  of  whether  it is to help as one is able or to attack,
criticize and defend a partisan position. Makes a world of difference.
It's  sort of like automobile electrics. It may help to change the bad
bulb  repeatedly  but  the  problem  won't be fixed until you find the
short and repair that and then replace the bulb.

Happy Happy,

Gustl
--
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

Frantz wrote: "USA don't allow dual citizenship"

I am a dual citizen of the USA and Switzerland.

As far as being citizen of the world,many of us in this forum have already expressed our agreement on that vision.A thread on that can be found in the archives.

MikeFrantz DESPREZ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hakan Falk a écrit : Frantz, I have looked at several lists and if you look at the one you pointed to, it is some lack of definitions. If you look at from country and citizenship as an example. It is Indian sites that says the they had 43 victims, the English at 67 seems to be quite common. I gave up and do not understand why it would be so difficult with one list on origin and get it accurate. The best number I can get for Americans in WTC, is 1,700+ and this is probably quite accurate and common. For the rest, it is large variations. In Spain the number of Spanish is much higher and I know of two families who lost a member in WTC and they are not even mentioned on your list. It is often said that the victims represented 115 countries and
your list with 36, is the lowest I have seen. It is a mess and I cannot understand why.Hakan,a beginning of explanation could be the double nationality. USA don't allow dual citizenship when it's legal in France and many other countries.So for exemple, my nephews, born in Washington state from a US mother and a French father, and actually living in France, have both US and French nationality regarding to the french law. At their legal majority, they will can choose...or not. But regarding the US law, they're only US.So I guess that if they were among the 9-11 victims, US would have count them as US and the french gov as french citizens.frantz,world citizen___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to
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RE: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid




Niel,

First, If you call me "sir", I'll think your addressing my father.

Second, let me say that I only wish it was so easy to explain. I get a lot of "You voted for him". No, I did not vote for him. Putting all the blame squarely on the shoulders of the voters is blatantly oversimplified and ignores my previous comments on this countries duopoly and corporate influence. I have yet to see a candidate that I vote for and feel good about (and I'm not alone). We are limited to "bad" and "worse".

"...dirty little wars the yanks have caused (list to long to mention )"

Agreed. I'm glad you didn't list them.We in this forum already know aboutthe "list"and discussed it in an earlier thread. Every time I look in a phone book, I am reminded of the holocaust thatoccurred on American soil -- not because of what's in it, butbecause of what's missing. I also know that every country had a turn at imperialism and committing ofatrocities. So, spare me the finger pointing.

American voters are being slowly squeezed out of the democratic process (see earlier posts on eminent domain) and a ruling class is victimizing both citizens and non-citizens alike.

An earlier post was from a member who addressed himself as a "world citizen". I couldn't agree more.We should look at ourselves as exactly that.

MikeNeil Goatman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


sir
on the country we of the rest of the world think all americans are as their leaders 
they let him in (not elected )
so they are all tared with the same bush till they get smart and get rid of him and actually elect someone 
the world does not see as a bozo war monger ruled by corporations 
I do not condone terrism but nor do i support the dirty little wars the yanks have caused (list to long to mention )
the money they spend could rid the world of all poverty forever 
yanky go home was a cry that still applies 
Neil

-Original Message-From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, 8 July 2005 9:35 AMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid



Thanks Kieth.After reading the article by Naom Chomsky, Two things stood out in my mind and two statements keep me from forgetting them.
"That (the existence of WMD's) was the "single question," as stressed constantly by Bush, Prime Minister Blair and associates. It was also the sole basis on which Bush received congressional authorisation to resort to force."
"Iraq and other possible conflicts in the future could provide recruitment, training grounds, technical skills and language proficiency for a new class of terrorists who are 'professionalised' and for whom political violence becomes an end in itself."
1.) There is no length to which an American president will go to make a case for war.
2.) There is no length to which an American president will go to perpetuate conflict "in the name of..."
As an American citizen, I must believe that there are people in the world who understand that not all Americans stand by this president and that there is a difference between a people and its government.
Considering the circumstances oflast two elections, the overwhelming cash flow and the influence it bought through the use corporate resources, many of us know who won the last two elections and why. Themost disturbing aspectof the last two elections is that under our current duopoly, the victory would not have changed, irrespective of who finally moved into White House.
George Bush: "Every life is precious-that's what distinguishes us from the enemy."The irony is incredible!100,000 Excess Iraqi Deaths Since War - Studyhttp://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/1028-08.htm
See also: http://www.restructures.net/chicago/Iraq.htm
Impeachable offenses committed without a formal investigation or serious media coverage.
...but don't you dare get caught with a girlfriend in the Oval Office.
Peace,
Mike

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Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again


Greetings,
If I may chime in here, Please, once you discover the horrors that the 
agribusiness way of raising animals is causing, buy 100% strictly grass fed 
meat.  For those of us that are fighting to build markets for our grass fed 
meat, this would really help.  The agribusiness guys are having too much 
fun laughing at us, since it is difficult to build markets with all the 
stumbling blocks they put in our way.  Even though it does cost us less in 
many ways to raise our meat, by the time we can get it to market, it costs 
more because of the rules we have to follow to be able to market our 
meat.  If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come 
down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this 
happen.  Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts 
many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness 
guys want.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
A sustainable farmer with grass fed dairy, beef and lamb.


At 03:15 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

todd,

you make an excellent point.  i still remember how stunned i was when i first
heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the
supermarket.


And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. 
Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're fed 
nothing else much thrives either.


Best

Keith



also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit this
to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to biod), but
there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and
cottonseed.  i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed up 
for other uses

in a more sane food industry (lol, sane food industry = oxymoron?).

-chris b.


In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Reduce

the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than

a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production

and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. 



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Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Gustl Steiner-Zehender

Hallo Jerry,

Thursday, 07 July, 2005, 18:16:39, you wrote:

JT NOWHERE  in  Mr.  Noam  Chomsky  post  is mentioned that over 2600
JT AMERICANS lost their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!!

JT IMO  you  would  have  to  be a total moron to even think that the
JT terrorist  would  have been satisfied taking down the WTC! Hell no
JT they would have kept on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity.

What  on  earth  does  this have to do with what is happening in Iraq?
There  was  not  one Iraqi among that lot and it has been amply proven
that Iraq was not aiding or abetting terrorists, not friendly with bin
Laden,  had  destroyed what US-supplied WMD it did have, was complying
with  UN requirements albeit slowly and grudgingly and not a threat to
anyone  outside the immediate region.  Chomsky is talking about apples
and  you're  talking  about  oranges  friend.   What you are saying is
comparable  to  saying,   Mexico  has attacked the United States.  We
need  to defend ourselves therefore we shall attack Canada.  There is
neither rhyme nor reason to that.

Being  angry  is  reasonable.   Being  a tool is not.  The majority of
those   identified   as   the  perpetrators were Saudi's.  Everyone in
the  government  knew that and it was widely reported in our own media
yet Bush decided to attack the Iraqi's.  He used the events of 9/11 as
a  reason  to  push  his  own  twisted agenda and he used the American
public  as  tools  to  further  that  agenda.   I don't know about you
friend,  but  I don't like being used, I don't like seeing US military
personnel  killed for no good reason and I most definitely do not like
being  lumped  in  with those twisted individuals who think it is fine
and dandy to go kill innocent people to push a political agenda.

What  is happening in Iraq has nothing to do with patriotism, justice,
right,  morality  or  anything  else.   It  is  entirely  about money,
politics   and   a   spurious   religious   belief   called  Christian
reconstructionism  or dominionism which is neither Christian nor moral
despite its name and is fundamental to neocon philosophy.

You  need  to  do  your  homework  friend  and connect the dots by the
numbers.   You  have  bought  into a lie.  Your name is new to me so I
will  let  you  know  that  I have 8 years in the military and two Nam
tours  and  belong  to  the  VFW as well.  This has nothing to do with
patriotism  it  has  to do with ethics and morality and the government
has  come  up  lacking.   We  are  in  the wrong and it is time we got
ourselves  straight  and  right.   We  can only do this if we have the
truth  and  it is available.  Your heart may be in the right place but
your  head  is not brother.  It is tough to admit that your country is
doing  something entirely immoral but the truth is the truth.  We were
intentionally  mislead  and  we need to correct that.  Truth and right
require  that.   If we do not then our government and those supporting
its  actions  are  no  better  than those who did the deed on 9/11.  I
can't believe that is what you want.

Happy Happy,

Gustl
JT If  Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of
JT getting  blows  jobs  in  the  oval  office, 9/11 would have never
JT happenedyou know it and I know it.
JT Jerry Turner
This started way before Clinton.  Blame enough for everyone.
...snip...

-- 
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



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Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Gustl Steiner-Zehender

Hallo Frantz,

The  US does allow dual citizenship with conditions.  Children born of
US citizens abroad may have dual citizenship in the case of US service
personnel at the very least.  Jews may have dual citizenship no matter
where they are born is my understanding.  I know folks who have German
and  US citizenship because they were born in Germany with an American
father and German mother.  Things are not so cut and dried as they may
seem.

Happy Happy,

Gustl

Friday, 08 July, 2005, 03:47:08, you wrote:
...snip...
FD Hakan,

FD a beginning of explanation could be the double nationality. USA don't 
FD allow dual citizenship when it's legal in France and many other countries.
FD So for exemple, my nephews, born in Washington state from a US mother 
FD and a French father, and actually living in France, have both US and 
FD French nationality regarding to the french law. At their legal majority, 
FD they will can choose...or not. But regarding the US law, they're only US.
FD So I guess that if they were among the 9-11 victims, US would have count 
FD them as US and the french gov as french citizens.

FD frantz,
FD world citizen

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-- 
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



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[Biofuel] Thanks and an update


Greetings,

First I would like to thank everyone that helped me last winter with my 
research into Indura fabrics.  The company has reversed their decision and 
are now issuing 100% pure cotton uniforms again.  My husband managed to 
avoid having to wear those poisonous ones and I have now donated them to 
the local fire department, where they belong.


We are having a super hot summer.  Our plums have come in a month early, my 
corn is going to be ready a month early and the heat is really affecting 
all my animals.  I have discovered that many heirloom vegetables do not 
like this heat, as a result, my rabbits are eating more from my garden this 
summer than I am.  However, I do support a chemical free farm that grows 
hybrids, so I don't have to buy my stuff at the store.


I am looking forward to a long drive this fall, as I am bringing home the 
start of my new sheep flock.  We are getting into Gulf Coast Native Sheep 
and are looking forward to getting to know them better, as well as learning 
how to shear and deal with the wool.  I have been learning how to knit this 
past spring, so this is exciting.  We had Barbados sheep for the last 
couple of years, but they do not do well with cows, [the cows are scared of 
them!] and they are so flighty and nervous as well as a constant battle 
with parasites that we gave up.


On the discovery list, apple cider vinegar once a month in the water of all 
your animals does a wonderful job of keeping parasites at bay.  It does not 
need to be the good stuff either, the cheap stuff seems to work just fine.


Chickens require enough room to run, not just walk or they loose the value 
of being on pasture.  It is not just that they eat bugs and grass, but 
their movement that makes the eggs healthy.  Thus the chicken tractor is 
great for shelter, but must be surrounded by a moveable fence to give a 
much larger space.  I realize that some people can let their birds free 
range, but I can not.  I have too many predators, including my coydog.


I would like to thank Keith for turning me on to the soil and heath 
library.  Now I have 2 libraries to get lost in on these hot afternoons 
while I hide from the heat.  The book: Small-Scale Grain Raising has really 
got me thinking and working.  This is something I really wanted to get 
into, but it is much better to have some information about what I am doing.


We discovered a spot on our land that has sandy soil that DRAINS!  Now I 
can have my orchard.  I have a couple of olive trees that will be going in 
the ground come fall and I will buy some Fugi apples, plums, apricots, 
peaches and satsuma oranges.


Both of our cows are suppose to be pregnant, but we will not know for sure 
for a while yet.  My neighbor is offering to pay me to let him run his cows 
on my land, talk about win/win for me.  I refused the money, since if we 
get real wet, I will be knocking on his door to get my animals to higher 
ground.  I see no reason to pay the government every time we help each 
other out.  I think he finally sees my point.  He has quit laughing at me 
and complimented me on the quality of my grass.  Compost tea really does help.


We are learning about many other things, aquaponics, vermicomposting and 
solar ac, but these projects will have to either wait until I have time or 
until the weather cools off.  I still need to make a stir stick of some 
sort to start making biodiesel, but this project really needs to move up on 
the list of things to do.  The problem is that hubby wants to be in on it, 
and the barn/workshop is too hot in the evenings to spend any time there.


Bright Blessings,
Kim



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Jerry Turner,

Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at 
least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated 
by your own  stink.


Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and 
doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war 
are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh 
air by now -  presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your 
sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that 
wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, stupid.


One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that 
your household would ground your fourteen year old for life because your 
sixteen year old stole the keys to your car and wrecked it. Or maybe 
it's just anyone with a genetic tan and dark hair? After all, they all 
look alike to you, anyway, right?


And, presuming you can remember back so recently, it was your mindset 
that was crucifying Mr. Clinton for attempting strikes, declaring that 
they were intentional distractions from his domestic concerns. And you 
might also care (probably not) to take a moment to remember that in his 
exit briefing to Mr. Bush, Mr. Clinton warned that the biggest threat 
to national security at that time was Benladin and Al Quaeda. 
Unfortunately, the new leader of the free world chose to dismiss this 
advice and declared that a national missile defense system was the 
biggest national security priority.


But you'd rather white wash Bush's blunder and declare it as someone 
else's fault.


Make up your mind. Or, like the rest of uncivil society on your side of 
the fence, is your expectation to have the best of all worlds and leave 
reality and truth completely out of your fabricated picture?


What seems extremely obvious is the fact that what you know is 
relatively little in comparison to what the rest of the world knows.


Todd Swearingen


Jerry Turner wrote:

NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 AMERICANS lost 
their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!!


IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the terrorist 
would have been satisfied taking down the WTC!  Hell no they would have kept 
on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity.


 If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of getting 
blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never happenedyou know it 
and I know it.


Jerry Turner

- Original Message - 
From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Thursday, July 07, 2005 2:44 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


See also:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9394.htm
Terror Attacks Near 3,200 in 2004 Count



http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article9387.htm

It's imperialism, stupid

By Noam Chomsky

07/05/05 ICH - - IN his June 28 speech, President Bush asserted
that the invasion of Iraq was undertaken as part of a global war
against terror that the United States is waging. In reality, as
anticipated, the invasion increased the threat of terror, perhaps
significantly.

Half-truths, misinformation and hidden agendas have characterised
official pronouncements about US war motives in Iraq from the very
beginning. The recent revelations about the rush to war in Iraq stand
out all the more starkly amid the chaos that ravages the country and
threatens the region and indeed the world.

In 2002 the US and United Kingdom proclaimed the right to invade Iraq
because it was developing weapons of mass destruction. That was the
single question, as stressed constantly by Bush, Prime Minister
Blair and associates. It was also the sole basis on which Bush
received congressional authorisation to resort to force.

The answer to the single question was given shortly after the
invasion, and reluctantly conceded: The WMD didn't exist. Scarcely
missing a beat, the government and media doctrinal system concocted
new pretexts and justifications for going to war.

Americans do not like to think of themselves as aggressors, but raw
aggression is what took place in Iraq, national security and
intelligence analyst John Prados concluded after his careful,
extensive review of the documentary record in his 2004 book
Hoodwinked.

Prados describes the Bush scheme to convince America and the world
that war with Iraq was necessary and urgent as a case study in
government dishonesty ... that required patently untrue public
statements and egregious manipulation of intelligence. The Downing
Street memo, published on May 1 in The Sunday Times of London, along
with other newly available confidential documents, have deepened the
record of deceit.

The memo came from a meeting of Blair's war cabinet on July 23, 2002,
in which Sir Richard Dearlove, head of British foreign intelligence,
made the now-notorious assertion that the intelligence and facts
were being fixed around the policy of going to war in Iraq.

The memo

Re: Wes - RE: [Biofuel] How many trees were killed to build your home ?

2005-07-08 Thread r


You're welcome.

Richard

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi Ryan


Keith wrote:

And there are people who demand to know: What's all this off-topic 
political crap got to do with BIOFUELS???, which usually turns out 
to be another way of saying they disagree with it and want it censored.



Keith, I for one will put in my 2 cents and say quite honestly that I 
wouldn't be glued to my computer reading email updates of this list 
if it weren't for the political discussion.  I live in the South 
Dakota, USA.  Most people here are Red state type of people who don't 
want change as long as there is a conservative in office pretending 
he/she cares.  I love that we can all speak freely, and I especially 
love that I can read what people from around the world think, 
especially about America...I agree with most of them.  I am also 
thankful that you post so many articles, I would not be exposed to 
this information otherwise.  This list has changed my world view for 
the better.  Thank you for your hard work, and thank you to all the 
contributers.



Thanks so much for taking the time to say so, it's much appreciated, 
and you're most welcome.


Best wishes

Keith



Ryan




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Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again

2005-07-08 Thread Ken Dunn

Kim
 If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come 
 down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make this 
 happen.  Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just puts 
 many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness 
 guys want.

I will say that this is a very compelling argument!

Take care,
Ken

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Frantz DESPREZ


Gustl Steiner-Zehender a écrit :


Hallo Frantz,

The  US does allow dual citizenship with conditions.  Children born of
US citizens abroad may have dual citizenship in the case of US service
personnel at the very least.  Jews may have dual citizenship no matter
where they are born is my understanding.  I know folks who have German
and  US citizenship because they were born in Germany with an American
father and German mother.  Things are not so cut and dried as they may
seem.

Interesting, I only knew my brother case : after married an american he 
had to choose US nationality or keep his french EU passport. I believed 
it was an exclusive choice.
I also have family in Germany where the right of blood is in use (you 
are german whereever you're born if you're parents are germans, but 
you're not automatically german if born in Germany), compared to France 
where right of soil applies (you are french, even from foreign parents 
if you're born on french soil).
Of course nothing is so simple. That makes things exciting... and 
exhausting.


frantz,
rather exhausted today ;-)

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[Biofuel] oil drums

2005-07-08 Thread John




Does anybody know where to start looking for empty 
45 gallon oil drums in the UK (west midlands)
Thanks
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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Jill Mello

Okay,

I joined this list to talk about how to create  run engines on biofuel, now
I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box?  This debate
runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks
tremendously.  However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not
stating that people have lack of and disjointed reasoning and stating to
get their head out of their own stink.  In doing this, you insult all of
us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.

Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support.  If YOU
look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.
Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the
most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've
reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news
and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality
is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves
up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe
have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us
with creating nuclear arms.

Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored?  No, as Iran is a
complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane.  Both
would love to wipe us off the map.  But, Iraq being a healthy country will
help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists.

You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this
country.  I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture
is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained
in them from birth.  It will take some years of US presence to help
alleviate this.  You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, but
what is essential is that we do it respectfully.  I enjoy a good debate, but
not one that tears others down.  I ask that if you are posting to a public
site, like this one, that you keep it respectful.

A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday,
If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the purpose
here was, that it's all about guarding against another terrorist attack for
our kids and grandkids, all about making sure there's not another 9/11 -- or
if there is, we'll know of it in enough time to stop it. That's what we're
trying to achieve. But as long as we're not united here and the voices of
opposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, and
continually misrepresent our purpose as just we want oil, Bush and Cheney
want oil, or Halliburton needs more money, or what have you, as long as it
keeps being obfuscated like that, it's just going to make the task all that
much more difficult, as World War II would have been that much more
difficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all the
others, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard.
But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establish
circumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally it
doesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because of
freedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beings
around the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determine
their own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanes
into buildings.  - Rush

Best regards,

Jill Mello




- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


 Jerry Turner,

 Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at
 least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated
 by your own  stink.

 Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and
 doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war
 are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh
 air by now -  presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your
 sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that
 wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, stupid.

 One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that
 your household would ground your fourteen year old for life because your
 sixteen year old stole the keys to your car and wrecked it. Or maybe
 it's just anyone with a genetic tan and dark hair? After all, they all
 look alike to you, anyway, right?

 And, presuming you can remember back so recently, it was your mindset
 that was crucifying Mr. Clinton for attempting strikes, declaring that
 they were intentional distractions from his domestic concerns. And you
 might also care (probably not) to take a moment to remember that in his
 exit briefing to Mr. Bush, Mr. Clinton

Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again

2005-07-08 Thread Jill Mello

I totally agree with Ken on this.  I raise chicken and lamb on pasture.  We
give only naturally raised grains to our chickens and rotate both onto fresh
pasture daily.  If I could sell more, I could lower my prices!  If bad
agribusiness makes you mad, don't blame your local farmer, blame Tyson,
Perdue, Montasano!  How many of your beans and vegetables and rice are
raised with seed from Montasano(?) a agrigiant who wipes out other seed
suppliers and supplies GMO modified, untested seeds to the farmer and the
public.  Have you checked the seeds you buy?  Are they certified organic,
certified naturally grown, certified non-GMO?  If they're not, you are
adding to the agribusiness giants who want only to control our food supply
(sounds frightening?  It should, and I'm really not an extremist).

Thanks again Ken, it's what I was thinking!

Jill Mello
www.MelloFamilyFarm.com
- Original Message - 
From: Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org; Garth  Kim Travis
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again


 Kim
  If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come
  down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make
this
  happen.  Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just
puts
  many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness
  guys want.

 I will say that this is a very compelling argument!

 Take care,
 Ken

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

"If YOU look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war."

People in this forum have found it importantto address the effect of misinformation directed at us from the White House, defense department and corporate media which have been, by enlarge,the cause of statements like the one above.

If you really feel strongly about defending your current position, I suspect that Todd will not be your only sparring partner in this debate.

MikeJill Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Okay,I joined this list to talk about how to create run engines on biofuel, nowI find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box? This debateruns into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbookstremendously. However, it would be nice if we were respectful by notstating that people have "lack of and disjointed reasoning" and stating toget their head "out of their own stink". In doing this, you insult all ofus who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support. If YOUlook at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, themost liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they'vereviewed ALL the information out there, not
just what they hear on the newsand in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the realityis that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselvesup, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safehave, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened uswith creating nuclear arms.Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored? No, as Iran is acomplicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane. Bothwould love to wipe us off the map. But, Iraq being a healthy country willhelp us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists.You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about thiscountry. I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their cultureis one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrainedin them from birth. It will take some years of US presence to helpalleviate
this. You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, butwhat is essential is that we do it respectfully. I enjoy a good debate, butnot one that tears others down. I ask that if you are posting to a publicsite, like this one, that you keep it respectful.A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday,If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the purposehere was, that it's all about guarding against another terrorist attack forour kids and grandkids, all about making sure there's not another 9/11 -- orif there is, we'll know of it in enough time to stop it. That's what we'retrying to achieve. But as long as we're not united here and the voices ofopposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, andcontinually misrepresent our purpose as just "we want oil, Bush and Cheneywant oil, or Halliburton needs more money," or what have you, as long as itkeeps being obfuscated like that,
it's just going to make the task all thatmuch more difficult, as World War II would have been that much moredifficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all theothers, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard.But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establishcircumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally itdoesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because offreedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beingsaround the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determinetheir own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life,liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanesinto buildings. - RushBest regards,Jill Mello- Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To:
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 8:32 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid Jerry Turner, Pull your head out of your back socket son and grab some fresh air, at least enough so as to start seeing straight instead of being asphyxiated by your own stink. Perhaps the reason why Mr. Chomsky doesn't mention September 11th and doesn't play upon the lives lost is because that event and the Iraq war are completely unrelated. In case you've managed to grab a little fresh air by now - presuming you stilll have the strength left to relax your sphincter and let some air flow - it was Benladin and his lot that wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid." One should suppose, using your lack of and disjointed reasoning, that your household would ground your fourteen year old for life because your sixteen year old stole
the keys to your car and wrecked it. Or maybe it's just anyone

Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again

2005-07-08 Thread Ken Dunn

I believe you're agreeing with Kim's remarks to which I replied but, I agree
as well.

Jill Mello [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 I totally agree with Ken on this.  I raise chicken and lamb on pasture.  We
 give only naturally raised grains to our chickens and rotate both onto fresh
 pasture daily.  If I could sell more, I could lower my prices!  If bad
 agribusiness makes you mad, don't blame your local farmer, blame Tyson,
 Perdue, Montasano!  How many of your beans and vegetables and rice are
 raised with seed from Montasano(?) a agrigiant who wipes out other seed
 suppliers and supplies GMO modified, untested seeds to the farmer and the
 public.  Have you checked the seeds you buy?  Are they certified organic,
 certified naturally grown, certified non-GMO?  If they're not, you are
 adding to the agribusiness giants who want only to control our food supply
 (sounds frightening?  It should, and I'm really not an extremist).
 
 Thanks again Ken, it's what I was thinking!
 
 Jill Mello
 www.MelloFamilyFarm.com
 - Original Message - 
 From: Ken Dunn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org; Garth  Kim Travis
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:20 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again
 
 
  Kim
   If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could come
   down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can make
 this
   happen.  Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, just
 puts
   many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the agribusiness
   guys want.
 
  I will say that this is a very compelling argument!
 
  Take care,
  Ken
 
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Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:

Greetings,
If I may chime in here, Please, once you discover the horrors that the 
agribusiness way of raising animals is causing, buy 100% strictly grass 
fed meat.  


	I have a question I'd like to pose to those of you who are growing 
grass fed cattle.  What happens with milk production?  I've had 
several clients who own dairy farms, and these people insist that 
dairy cows must be fed some grain in order to produce high quality 
milk.  Not having any experience in this area, I have nothing to say 
in response.


	It seems, however, that so much factory farm mentality has crept into 
the way food is produced in North America, determining fact from myth 
is difficult.  One of these clients laughed at my garden several weeks 
ago (after I told her I use no chemical fertilizers, pesticides or 
herbicides), but commented to me last week in great surprise that our 
plants are thriving.  (Our corn looks every bit as good as hers, she 
said, even though we're at higher elevation and it's colder and drier 
where I live than in the valley.)  Is the idea that dairy cattle MUST 
be fed grain in order to produce high quality milk a myth?


	If so, what on earth did those poor ungulates do when they roamed the 
prairies in the wild?



robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Jerry Turner wrote:

NOWHERE in Mr. Noam Chomsky post is mentioned that over 2600 AMERICANS lost 
their lives and did so on AMERICAN soil!!



	This is a tired argument.  How many terrorist attacks have occurred 
in Canada?  (Count them, it should tell you something important.)  Has 
it ever occurred to you that the best defense against international 
terrorism consists of maintaining cordial relations with other 
nations?  You err because you assume that no causal relationship 
exists between American foreign policy and the 11 September atrocity.



IMO you would have to be a total moron to even think that the terrorist 
would have been satisfied taking down the WTC!  Hell no they would have kept 
on killing AMERICANS at every opportunity.


	Which they are doing regularly, in Iraq and Afghanistan.  Apparently, 
they killed a bunch of innocent Britons yesterday.  This is what 
happens when we respond to violence with violence.



  If Clinton would have had the guts to run this country instead of getting 
blows jobs in the oval office, 9/11 would have never happenedyou know it 
and I know it.


	Personally, I didn't like Mr. Clinton, but the 11 September events 
did not take place on his watch.  I know that blame is better to give 
than receive, but your simplistic view of the issue solves nothing. 
The perspective you've outlined will be the ruination of our country.




robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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RE: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Chris Lloyd

 Benladin and his lot that wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, stupid.


   I'm not even sure that he knew about the attack, I saw the first
video he put out after 9/11 with the corrected voice over. He never
claimed responsibility for himself or his terror groups. He did say he
thought that America got what it disserved and the people who did it
were heroes. I would have thought that after pulling off an attack like
that he would have bragged about it like he did with his attacks in
Afghanistan. 
   Has anybody actually been convicted for being directly involved in
the 9/11 attack, the only people arrested/convicted in the UK have been
done for Being members of a terrorist organisation or even being
friends of someone thought to be a member of a terrorist organisation.
After arresting nearly 400 people in the UK less than 10 have been
convicted or sent to the US. Chris.   

Wessex Ferret Club  (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk)

 


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RE: [Biofuel] oil drums

2005-07-08 Thread Chris Lloyd









 Does anybody know where to start looking for
empty 45 gallon oil drums in the UK
(west midlands) 



Local scrap yards or large garage workshops, they buy
oil in bulk and may sell you the barrels.   Chris.



Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk) 

 










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Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again

2005-07-08 Thread Ryan Hall


Kim,
How do we know what is pasture fed, non-hormonal beef, and corporate farm 
beef?  I am in the process of quitting beef right now, mostly because of mad 
cow.  I have a friend who is director of an E Coli testing lab in Colorado 
and the things he tells me makes me want to stay away.  It tastes so good 
though.  Would I need to go to a local farmer specifically, or can I buy it 
in stores?


Thanks,
Ryan
- Original Message - 
From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again



Greetings,
If I may chime in here, Please, once you discover the horrors that the 
agribusiness way of raising animals is causing, buy 100% strictly grass 
fed meat.  For those of us that are fighting to build markets for our 
grass fed meat, this would really help.  The agribusiness guys are having 
too much fun laughing at us, since it is difficult to build markets with 
all the stumbling blocks they put in our way.  Even though it does cost us 
less in many ways to raise our meat, by the time we can get it to market, 
it costs more because of the rules we have to follow to be able to market 
our meat.  If more people bought our meat, then our processing costs could 
come down and we can become more affordable, but only the consumer can 
make this happen.  Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to agribusiness, 
just puts many sustainable farmers out of business, which is what the 
agribusiness guys want.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
A sustainable farmer with grass fed dairy, beef and lamb.


At 03:15 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

todd,

you make an excellent point.  i still remember how stunned i was when i 
first
heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at 
the

supermarket.


And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. 
Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're fed 
nothing else much thrives either.


Best

Keith


also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit 
this
to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to biod), 
but

there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and
cottonseed.  i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed up 
for other uses

in a more sane food industry (lol, sane food industry = oxymoron?).

-chris b.


In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Reduce

the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than

a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production

and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. 



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RE: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again

2005-07-08 Thread Chris Lloyd

 several clients who own dairy farms, and these people insist that 
dairy cows must be fed some grain in order to produce high quality 
milk.  Not having any experience in this area, I have nothing to say 
in response.

Most modern high yield milkers need some food/mineral supplements,
normally fed at milking time. Older breeds that only produce half the
milk can get by on natural food but still may need mineral supplements
depending on the ground the grass/fodder is grown on. Wild cattle only
produce enough milk for one or two calves.   Chris.  

Wessex Ferret Club  (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk)

 



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Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again


Greetings Robert,

I do happen to know personally the people who have a legal raw milk dairy 
in Texas and their cows are 100% grass fed.  If your grass is up to snuff, 
then there is no difference.  What I have found is that it takes more time 
and energy and a real learning curve to keep pasture in the condition that 
is needed to raise animals on just grass.


When I brought my cow home, she was lactating, but, I had trouble 
remembering how to milk a cow.[I had done it once at age 10.] My grass is 
not all it could be.  I am getting there, but I am not there yet.  Alysha 
and Ben hire people to come in and apply compost tea to their pasture and 
to re-seed it for them, etc.  They have fabulous pasture and their milk 
tastes wonderful.


We bought our cows from the same commercial dairy, but they bought top of 
the line and I bought bottom.  They are getting 3 or 4 gallons of milk from 
each cow, per day on a once a day milking.


I have had neighbors that tell me I am going to starve my animals, but 
slowly they are beginning to understand that my animals get real fuel out 
of my grass.  More than their animals get out of their grass because I 
don't make the poor animal try to digest 2 incompatible feeds.  There will 
be a drop in production when you change, especially if you do it 
abruptly.  Once the rumen is adjusted to the new feeding regimen, it is 
harmful to feed grains.


If you want further information, I am sure I could put you in touch with 
the owners of the commercial 100% grass fed raw dairy, Ben and Alysha.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

I have a question I'd like to pose to those of you who are 
growing grass fed cattle.  What happens with milk production?  I've had 
several clients who own dairy farms, and these people insist that dairy 
cows must be fed some grain in order to produce high quality milk.  Not 
having any experience in this area, I have nothing to say in response.



robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782




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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Greetings,
Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people.  Remember the 
FLQ?  They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an attempt to break 
Canada into 2 countries.  The emergency measures act is fully equal to the 
patriot act.  And yes, it has been implemented in my lifetime.  Each 
country has its own problems, trying to say anyone is perfect is nonsense.

Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 10:17 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

Jerry Turner wrote:
snip
This is a tired argument.  How many terrorist attacks have 
occurred in Canada?  (Count them, it should tell you something 
important.)  Has it ever occurred to you that the best defense against 
international terrorism consists of maintaining cordial relations with 
other nations?  You err because you assume that no causal relationship 
exists between American foreign policy and the 11 September atrocity.




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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Jill,

Should you be able to rationalize within some degree of reason how Mr. 
Turner's remarks were not due to lack of and disjointed reasoning, and 
how the malodorous stink generated by such ill ferment is spread to the 
four winds as seed to bespoil whatever fertile ground on which it may 
land, then I would surely consider modifying or perhaps even retracting 
one or two of my remarks.


On the other hand, as Mr. Turner's remarks are aggregiously in error and 
his purpose is blatantly apparent as one to politicize and malign in the 
effort to diminutize and dissassociate truth from reality, he opens 
himself up for the full gell coat that his foolishness affords him, no 
matter whether it be in a public forum or not. Preferable that it be 
public for the entire world to see.


Life is too short to molly coddle persons who feign to be adults in the 
effort to not offend their delicate sensibilities.


And if you don't believe that such myopic mindsets don't have anything 
to do with biofuels, just examine the wrong-mindedness of the present US 
administration accross the board. The same disjointed, erroneous and 
fabricated reasoning that has been applied to Iraq is being applied to 
fuel efficiency, conservation, natural resources, global warming, 
nuclear power, proliferation and trade - all of which are, were and will 
be connected long before and long after Dubbya is gone.


As for your complaints about talk show chatter? You bitch about 
opposing view point and then go on to read a full page, chapter and 
verse, as to the opinions of your favorite, radical, right-wing, 
so-ultra-'conservative'-as-to-have-long-since-fallen-off-the-edge-of-the-flat-Earth 
talk show host yesterday. What's up with that?


You say that differing opinions are what's beautiful about this 
country. (The US.) But you denegrate not only differing opinons from 
your own, but others who tend to rely more upon fact than opinion.


Perhaps you'd care to explain away your own inconsistancy and doble 
standards on those two accounts?  Such incongruities are okay when they 
suit your purpose and anything that doesn't suit your purpose or opinion 
is apparently not okay? Apparently differing opinions are what make your 
world so beautiful, because without them you wouldn't have a podium from 
which to bitch?


Oh..., by the by, if you have the time (doubtful, but if) pulling up 
but a few installments of Limbaughtomized archives (much less the past 
thirteen) will reveal that your favorite talk show host is far more of a 
war-monger than the peace maker that you romatacize him to be. And he's 
always been that way. Most folks find that a continual diet of such 
showmanship peppered swill leaves them so socially emaciated - at all 
levels - that they must find a more balanced diet lest they starve 
themselves.


Death by nationalism. It's happened before and is returning to a theatre 
near you.


Todd Swearingen

Have you been Limbaughtomized yet?



Jill Mello wrote:


Okay,

I joined this list to talk about how to create  run engines on biofuel, now
I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box?  This debate
runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks
tremendously.  However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not
stating that people have lack of and disjointed reasoning and stating to
get their head out of their own stink.  In doing this, you insult all of
us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.

Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support.  If YOU
look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.
Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the
most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've
reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news
and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality
is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves
up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe
have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us
with creating nuclear arms.

Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored?  No, as Iran is a
complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane.  Both
would love to wipe us off the map.  But, Iraq being a healthy country will
help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists.

You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this
country.  I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture
is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained
in them from birth.  It will take some years of US presence to help
alleviate this.  You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, but
what is essential is that we do it respectfully.  I enjoy a good debate, but
not one that tears others down.  I ask that if you are

Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again

2005-07-08 Thread Ken Dunn

Ryan said:

 Would I need to go to a local farmer specifically, or can I buy it 
 in stores?

You can check this out.  I stumbled across it earlier.
http://www.eatwild.com/products/index.html

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Re: Re[2]: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Ryan Hall


Gustl,
If we do not then our government and those supporting
its  actions  are  no  better  than those who did the deed on 9/11.

It would seem we are worse still.  They wanted revenge for something we did 
long ago, we want money.  Furthermore, they took something like 4 hours to 
do their damage.  We have been in Iraq since the beginning of 2003.  So we 
are at 2 years and counting.  And still polls are showing that around 58% of 
the country supports staying in Iraq (abc news poll 
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/PollVault/story?id=885745 )


I haven't watched television in about 2 months, so I'm not really up and up 
on what I'm supposed to believe.


Ryan 



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Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again


Greetings,
Yes, 100% grass fed beef and lamb are only sold directlly by farmers.  If 
you go to www.eatwild.com like Keith suggested, you will find lots of 
information and local listings of suppliers.  Also, there are some 
producers that are listed at www.localharvest.org   A great place to find a 
local CSA.  Some farmer's markets are also selling grass fed meat.  I don't 
know anyone who has made it into the stores with their meat.  This is one 
of the things that keeps the price so high.

Bright Blessings,
Kim


At 10:40 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

Kim,
How do we know what is pasture fed, non-hormonal beef, and corporate farm 
beef?  I am in the process of quitting beef right now, mostly because of 
mad cow.  I have a friend who is director of an E Coli testing lab in 
Colorado and the things he tells me makes me want to stay away.  It tastes 
so good though.  Would I need to go to a local farmer specifically, or can 
I buy it in stores?


Thanks,
Ryan
- Original Message - From: Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Pimentel is at it again



Greetings,
If I may chime in here, Please, once you discover the horrors that the 
agribusiness way of raising animals is causing, buy 100% strictly grass 
fed meat.  For those of us that are fighting to build markets for our 
grass fed meat, this would really help.  The agribusiness guys are having 
too much fun laughing at us, since it is difficult to build markets with 
all the stumbling blocks they put in our way.  Even though it does cost 
us less in many ways to raise our meat, by the time we can get it to 
market, it costs more because of the rules we have to follow to be able 
to market our meat.  If more people bought our meat, then our processing 
costs could come down and we can become more affordable, but only the 
consumer can make this happen.  Deciding not to eat meat as an answer to 
agribusiness, just puts many sustainable farmers out of business, which 
is what the agribusiness guys want.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
A sustainable farmer with grass fed dairy, beef and lamb.


At 03:15 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

todd,

you make an excellent point.  i still remember how stunned i was when i 
first

heard how much feed/grain/meal goes into each unit of meat purchased at the
supermarket.


And none of it necessary, nor of any benefit compared with good pasture. 
Cows thrive on grass, not on feed/grain/meal, when that's what they're 
fed nothing else much thrives either.


Best

Keith



also, i understand there are aspects of chemistry involved which limit this
to some degree (especially when it comes to converting the oil to 
biod), but

there are lots of oils used in processed foods, such as palm kernel and
cottonseed.  i suspect large quantities of these oils would be freed up 
for other uses

in a more sane food industry (lol, sane food industry = oxymoron?).

-chris b.


In a message dated 7/6/05 9:38:05 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Reduce

the meat centered diet to one that treats meat as a delicacy rather than

a mainstay and vast acreages could be diverted to liquid fuel production

and cellulosic ethanol production rather than feed meal. 



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings,
Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people.  Remember the 
FLQ?  They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an attempt to 
break Canada into 2 countries.  The emergency measures act is fully 
equal to the patriot act.  And yes, it has been implemented in my 
lifetime.  Each country has its own problems, trying to say anyone is 
perfect is nonsense.


	That wasn't my point, Kim.  You are correct that every nation has its 
problems, but the FLQ was a domestic organization, just like the SLA 
(remember them?) was a domestic organization.  What I'm trying to 
communicate, is that American foreign policy directly impacts the 
attitudes people maintain toward the United States.


Do you disagree?


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Hakan Falk



Jill,

At 03:23 PM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

Okay,

I joined this list to talk about how to create  run engines on biofuel, now
I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box?  This debate
runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks
tremendously.  However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not
stating that people have lack of and disjointed reasoning and stating to
get their head out of their own stink.  In doing this, you insult all of
us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.


You are right, epithets like that are not nice. Everything are about views
based the level of education on the issue, information, misinformation,
manipulated or not manipulated facts, propaganda and manipulation. If
I think that someone do not have any base to say that the war was essential
for your physical security and you hold that opinion, then the statement would
include you.



Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support.  If YOU
look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.
Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the
most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've
reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news
and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality
is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves
up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe
have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us
with creating nuclear arms.


ALL The information out there is quite clear on the following,

Here we go and it is quite obvious that you are ignorant, misinformed and a
victim of your government's propaganda. Baghdad have NOT been a hotbed
of terrorist support the last 30 years. Iraq have been a staunch supporter of
an occupied and suppressed refugee population, together with other Arab
countries and to a lesser degree than for example Saudi Arabia.

Hussein gave economic support to the surviving families of Palestine
fighters, who had been involved in suicide attacks against the occupiers.
This have never been a threat against US.

Hussein have not encouraged terrorist training camp and you must give
me the direct proof of this, because I cannot find any valid ones. On the
contrary, he supported US with a war against Iran, when the US appointed
Iranian King was toppled by the Iranian people and their religious leaders.

Hussein and Iraq never gave Osama bin Laden any safe haven. It is
a lot of information about the contrary and that Osama bin Laden and
Hussein were bitter enemies.

This about worked with Syria to give your enemies comfort, is too vague
and without substance too be possible to analyze and argue. Is the statement
only your brainchild or can you give me some substance?

The whole Bush propaganda, about WMD has in all its aspects been proven
to be without any substance. No WMDs or program to produce them have
been found in Iraq. In UK this is a big scandal and Blair is suffering from 
it,

but the Americans seems to be more tolerant about their government's lies
about it.




Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored?  No, as Iran is a
complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane.  Both
would love to wipe us off the map.  But, Iraq being a healthy country will
help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists.


You are repeating your government's propaganda on this issue, it is also many
opposite views on this. This is however fortune telling and judging from 
the ways

things are today, it is little support for the validity of your statement.

I always think about some obvious realities, when Americans come up
with this dreams about the future. Iraq is a country with a population that
to 80% consist of old people, widows and Fatherless children under 15 years
of age. The Americans have directly or indirectly been involved in making
the women widows and the children fatherless. What is the probability that
they would love and be grateful to the Americans? Why are the Americans
surprised, when the Iraqis do not love them? Is it not understandable that
some of the Iraqis want to kill Americans, how would you react in their
situation?

I will take several generations for the Iraqis to forget and forgive the 
Americans.

I live in Spain and what happened in the civil war, 65 years ago, is still a
sensitive issue.




You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this
country.  I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture
is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained
in them from birth.


I have the right to have my opinion on this, based on historical  facts plus
mine and others experiences in Europe. My opinion is that you are trying
to sell naive dreams to me and that they are based on the

Re: [Biofuel] emissions Vol 3, Issue 30

2005-07-08 Thread Adrian Machado Van Deusen

   1. Re: emissions (the skapegoat)

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 7 Jul 2005 23:59:22 +0100 (BST)
From: the skapegoat [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] emissions
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org

john owens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
here's a tought

What will happen if the majority of the waste vegtable oil in the world
is being used for biodiesel which isnt curently being burned and is
absorbing some of the co2 being produced by mineral diesel and
production and mineral oil consumption growes. Will this not cause an
increase in co2 in atmospher!

John,
All things Carbon exchange in carbon dioxide and oxygen- for time
imemorial. A BIT of an exageration, but-
Trees, dogs, fish, humans, machines, worms... Et al.
The question is that the earth has maintained a healthy and vibrant
equilibrim with this equation so long as the source of the 
Carbon dioxide is within the Green cycle. I mean to say- is derived from
what is living on the surface of the earth at this moment, and the
immediate decomposition of the above.

Our problem came when we extracted from the carbon that lived on the
earth's surface long ago, and added that CO2 to the present day cycle.
THEN we overloaded the atmospheric balance on the side of CO2... With
obvious side effects.

All this to affirm that- burning Biofuel DOES ALSO emit CO2, but since
it is cycling within the surface of the earth's alotted amount, it is
not adding nor detracting.

Add to that the removal of SULPHUR from BioFuel (which Mineral has) and
the great reduction of microparticulate matter (which Mineral has) and
with BioDiesel we are being PRETTY inoccuous.

The greater concern is HOW to provide this resource to the SHIPPING /
FREIGHT industries- greatest users of Diesel by far, without overloading
the soil?

Adrian

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.10/43 - Release Date: 7/6/2005

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Re: [Biofuel] emissions

2005-07-08 Thread Greg Harbican

No.

The same amount of CO2, is used by the oil producing plants, as they grow.


Greg H.


- Original Message - 
From: john owens [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 19:13
Subject: [Biofuel] emissions


here's a tought

What will happen if the majority of the waste vegtable oil in the
world is being used for biodiesel which isnt curently being burned and
is absorbing some of the co2 being produced by mineral diesel and
production and mineral oil consumption growes. Will this not cause an
increase in co2 in atmospher!

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[Biofuel] RE:Jill and her defenxe of US aggression in foreign countries

2005-07-08 Thread Wes Moore

Well, Jill, as a Canadian, or should I say an individual who is from Canada
and from what I observe, I do not agree.  I believe you are existing in a
country that has capitalized on the short term removal of the USSR as a
perceived world power, and has become pretty much what society had feared
from the USSR.  As a case in point, I understand that recent polls
throughout Europe now view the US as the greatest threat to world peace,
they now term the US as an aggressor.  
Personally I see a country that has departed from democracy, and is now
ruled by a government out of control.
Having said this, don't be surprised if I do not continue to participate in
a discussion of this, ... I have found for my peace of mind in need to limit
the attention I offer to this line of thinking as I attempt to design a
peaceful and pleasant life for myself, family, and friends. I too joined
this list to learn about bio-diesel and continue to recognize my choice to
read or delete according to the subject line. 

Please know that even if you find my opinion offensive, I consider this to
be a detached and mechanical conclusion and will continue to view the
American people as individual friends and allies.  I do not believe informed
citizens of your country would approve of your governments actions if you
had the facts before you. 
Wes




Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

Okay,

I joined this list to talk about how to create  run engines on biofuel, now
I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box?  This debate
runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks
tremendously.  However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not
stating that people have lack of and disjointed reasoning and stating to
get their head out of their own stink.  In doing this, you insult all of
us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.

Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support.  If YOU
look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.
Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the
most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've
reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news
and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality
is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves
up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe
have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us
with creating nuclear arms.

Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored?  No, as Iran is a
complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane.  Both
would love to wipe us off the map.  But, Iraq being a healthy country will
help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists.

You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this
country.  I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture
is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained
in them from birth.  It will take some years of US presence to help
alleviate this.  You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, but
what is essential is that we do it respectfully.  I enjoy a good debate, but
not one that tears others down.  I ask that if you are posting to a public
site, like this one, that you keep it respectful.

A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday,
If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the purpose
here was, that it's all about guarding against another terrorist attack for
our kids and grandkids, all about making sure there's not another 9/11 -- or
if there is, we'll know of it in enough time to stop it. That's what we're
trying to achieve. But as long as we're not united here and the voices of
opposition to this continually misrepresent what our objective is, and
continually misrepresent our purpose as just we want oil, Bush and Cheney
want oil, or Halliburton needs more money, or what have you, as long as it
keeps being obfuscated like that, it's just going to make the task all that
much more difficult, as World War II would have been that much more
difficult had we not been unified in beating Hitler and Japan and all the
others, Mussolini, that we faced. So it's not easy. It's very, very hard.
But the answer ultimately, the short version is, we have to establish
circumstances that we know exist because they work here. Culturally it
doesn't matter; all cultures come to this country and thrive because of
freedom. We need to establish the same circumstances where human beings
around the world have the same grand, God-given freedom we do to determine
their own fate. The vast majority of free people want to pursue life,
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, not learning how to fly airplanes
into buildings.  - Rush

Best regards,

Jill Mello




- Original Message - 
From:

Re: [Biofuel] Help!


Greetings to you bio-fuelers,


Greetings J., welcome,

I am new to this list serve and signed up hoping to find some 
advice.  I recently heard the end of the NPR (National Public Radio) 
program that featured Mike Pelly.


The full sound file is linked from this previous message:
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-June/000897.html

[Biofuel] Mike Pelly on National Public

Or:
http://snipurl.com/g4b9

Through that program I became VERY interested in biodiesel.  I have 
been doing some reading on the net and I now have some questions for 
you all.  Here they are:
1) Where can I learn first hand the how to's in preparing SVO and 
Used Vegetable Oil as a diesel fuel to be used in a vehicle.  Are 
there workshops out there somewhere?  I live in NE Iowa.   I have 
read the step-by-step directions on the net, but I would still like 
to witness this procedure so that I can feel comfortable with it.


There are various workshops, you can probably find out about them 
here, some good some not so good. Most biodieselers learn on their 
own, most of them aren't chemists or engineers. When we started all 
we could find was 13 not very clear paragraphs on the Internet, and 
many others can say something similar. Now there's great information 
available, all you need to know and more, and forums like this one 
where more experienced people are happy to help you along. Just do 
it, do it right.


2) I would like to buy a small diesel-burning pick-up that gets good 
gas mileage and can burn SVO.   Any suggestions? 


Stay away from Stanadyne or Lucas-CAV injector pumps.

3) Since I am not a mechanic, where can I get VERY CLEAR information 
on what needs to be done to my diesel vehicle so that it can burn 
SVO?


Have a look at these recent messages, check the whole thread starting here:
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-June/thread.html#750


Or:
http://snipurl.com/g4bp

Or here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg51618.html
Re: [Biofuel] VW Diesel

The rest of the thread is linked at the end of the page.

We're upgrading the SVO pages at the Journey to Forever website, 
it'll take a few days and there'll be more information then, 
meanwhile it's worth a look anyway:


http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html
Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel

Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever



I would appreciate any help you could give me regarding my questions.

Gratefully,

J. Schwab



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Jill - Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Ulp... Um, welcome new member Jill.

Well, it's a nice clear picture of the disconnect anyway, sheer 
essence of mass cognitive dissonance. Totally fact-free but totally 
confident too and I'll bet it's undentable. It couldn't have survived 
this far if it wasn't undentable, in view of the glut of disproofs, 
revelations and admissions which shot it all down long ago. I'm not 
even going to try, I just hope I get to stick to that.


A warning from the list owner, Jill, see below.


Okay,

I joined this list to talk about how to create  run engines on biofuel, now
I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box?


When you joined the list you were sent a Welcome message, which 
you're obliged to read. It referred to the List rules, which you're 
also obliged to read. The List rules are here:
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-May/07.html


See especially the first two sections, Rights and obligations and 
Open discussion, and the Note at the end.


You joined for your own reasons to talk about what you want to talk 
about, and so did everyone else here. You talk about respect but you 
don't acknowledge that each of them has as much right as you do to 
their very diverse range of views. Don't try to dictate to them what 
they should or shouldn't discuss here.


Anyway messages have subject titles, nobody's forcing you to read 
anything you don't want to read, biofuels discussions continue all 
the while.


It also says this in the List rules: If you don't see what you're 
interested in, just ask. Or check the archives first to see if it has 
been dealt with previously, and then ask.


It would be nice if you were respectful enough to check what's gone 
before instead of forcing us to go through it all over again yet 
another time, at this belated stage when it's way beyond any credible 
defence. The list wasn't born yesterday. There are 50,000 messages in 
the archives, posted over five years from all over the world. Check 
what you're claiming in the archives first, which doesn't mean just 
ignoring everything that disagrees with you. You're not exactly the 
first to make these claims, but nobody's made any of them stick, nor 
even managed to make a half-decent case once there were facts to be 
faced rather than just myths. Can you give us any arguments that 
haven't already been dealt with multiple times in the list archives 
and everywhere else too?


Seriously, check it first. Don't expect us to do it for you and waste 
our time digging it all up again, do your own homework, we did ours 
already. We've dealt with all your arguments before, they are found 
wanting, to put it very mildly. Give us arguments that haven't 
already been dealt with multiple times in the list archives, or don't 
give us any more arguments at all.


Best wishes

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner



This debate
runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks
tremendously.  However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not
stating that people have lack of and disjointed reasoning and stating to
get their head out of their own stink.  In doing this, you insult all of
us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.

Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support.  If YOU
look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.
Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the
most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've
reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news
and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality
is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves
up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe
have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us
with creating nuclear arms.

Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored?  No, as Iran is a
complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane.  Both
would love to wipe us off the map.  But, Iraq being a healthy country will
help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists.

You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this
country.  I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture
is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained
in them from birth.  It will take some years of US presence to help
alleviate this.  You and I don't have that, we are allowed to speak, but
what is essential is that we do it respectfully.  I enjoy a good debate, but
not one that tears others down.  I ask that if you are posting to a public
site, like this one, that you keep it respectful.

A well-respected talk show host said the following yesterday,
If we were united in this country, if we all understood what the

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Greetings,
I don't disagree, but Canada does so much of the US's dirty work, that 
anyone who is knowledgeable is going to tar Canada with the same 
brush.  Good examples of what I am saying is the software developed by 
Canada for electronic tracking of persons and words and the latest nonsense 
of not allowing delegates to the symposium on GE foods in Montreal.  Canada 
is as much under the same control of the same multinationals as the US 
is.  I am real tired of Canadians self righteous muck about the US, when 
they are in bed with Monsanto et al, just the same.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
A World citizen with a Canadian passport.

At 11:22 AM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings,
Canada has had terrorist attacks, from its own people.  Remember the 
FLQ?  They kidnapped the Prime Ministers best friend in an attempt to 
break Canada into 2 countries.  The emergency measures act is fully equal 
to the patriot act.  And yes, it has been implemented in my 
lifetime.  Each country has its own problems, trying to say anyone is 
perfect is nonsense.


That wasn't my point, Kim.  You are correct that every nation has 
its problems, but the FLQ was a domestic organization, just like the SLA 
(remember them?) was a domestic organization.  What I'm trying to 
communicate, is that American foreign policy directly impacts the 
attitudes people maintain toward the United States.


Do you disagree?


robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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[Biofuel] A look in the mirror for America

Live! From Boston, Massachusettes and the Boston Globe, it's

A look in the mirror for America

By Derrick Z. Jackson | July 8, 2005

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/07/08/a_look_in_the_mirror_for_america/

IN HIS INITIAL reaction yesterday to the London transit bombings,
President Bush decried ''people killing innocent people. He said: ''The
contrast couldn't be clearer between the intentions and the hearts of
those of us who care deeply about human rights and human liberty and
those who kill -- those who have got such evil in their heart that they
will take the lives of innocent folks.

This came a week and a half after Bush invoked the innocent in his Fort
Bragg, N.C., speech in an attempt to shore up sagging American support
for his invasion and occupation of Iraq. Doggedly tying 9/11 to Saddam
Hussein even though no tie existed, Bush said of global terrorists:
''There is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to take. We
see the nature of the enemy in terrorists who exploded car bombs along a
busy shopping street in Baghdad, including one outside a mosque. We see
the nature of the enemy in terrorists who sent a suicide bomber to a
teaching hospital in Mosul. We see the nature of the enemy in terrorists
who behead civilian hostages and broadcast their atrocities for the
world to see.

Bush also said the enemy will fail. ''The terrorists can kill the
innocent, but they cannot stop the advance of freedom, he said.
Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair said the ''slaughter of innocent
people will fail to cower the British people, and Canada's Prime
Minister Paul Martin called the attack an ''unspeakable attack on the
innocent.

It was all appropriate in the moment. In a greater context, there is a
tragic hollowness. The world, of course, shares the sympathies of Mayor
Michael Bloomberg of New York, who said the London bombings were a
''despicable, cowardly act. Yet every invoking of the innocents also
reminds us of our despicable, cowardly killing of innocent Iraqi civilians.

Or perhaps you forgot about them. That was by design. We have rightfully
mourned the loss of nearly 3,000 people on 9/11. We have begun mourning
the loss of about 40 people in London. We have mourned the loss of 1,751
US soldiers, who, bless them, were following orders of their commander
in chief. But to this day, there has been no major acknowledgement, let
alone apology, by Bush or Blair for the massive amounts of carnage we
created in a war waged over what turned out to be a lie, the nonexistent
weapons of mass destruction.

These innocents never existed, either in Iraq or Afghanistan. ''We don't
do body counts, said both General Tommy Franks, former Iraqi commander,
and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. When Brigadier General Mark
Kimmitt was asked about the images of American soldiers killing innocent
civilians on Arab television, Kimmitt said: ''My solution is quite
simple: Change the channel. Change the channel to a legitimate,
authoritative, honest news station. The stations that are showing
Americans intentionally killing women and children are not legitimate
news sources. That is propaganda. And that is lies.

The United States waged its own war of propaganda by refusing to conduct
a legitimate, authoritative, honest accounting of the deaths of innocent
civilians. As it urged people to change the channel, the Bush
administration cut off all channels to finding out what we did to women,
men, and children who were shopping, working, or leaving their mosques.
In an invasion based on falsehoods, the truth of the civilian carnage
might have been too hard for Americans to take, and support for the war
might have ended in the first few weeks.

The propaganda of an invasion with invisible innocents surely allowed
Bush to seamlessly switch his stated reason from the unique horrors of
WMD to liberating an oppressed people. It is a lot easier to tell the
world you are their great liberator if you do not have to own up to the
thousands of dead people who will never get the chance to vote in that
free election. It sounds a little bit like people who say
African-Americans should be thankful for slavery because they are no
longer in Africa.

Worse, this denial of death, in a war that did not have to happen, is
sure to fuel the very terrorism we say we will defeat. The innocents in
the so-called war on terror are always ''our citizens or the citizens
of our allies. The only innocent Iraqis are those killed by
''insurgents. Our soldiers clearly did not intend to kill innocents.
But this posturing of America as the great innocent, when everyone knows
we kill innocents ourselves, is likely only to make us look more like
the devil in the eyes of a suicide bomber.

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RE: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid





Chris wrote: "Has anybody actually been convicted for being directly involved in the 9/11 attack..."

"Of the 120 terrorism cases recorded on Findlaw, the major information source for legal cases of note, the initial major charges leveled have resulted in only two actual terrorism convictions -- both in a single case, that of Richard Reid, the notorious shoe bomber. Of 18 actual charges of "terrorism" brought between September 2001 and October 2004, 15 are still pending and one was dismissed."

http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?emx=xpid=2256

This doesn't count the "enemy combatants" who are left with their captors and accusers as their judge jury and executioners. It also doesn't count the unknown number of prisoners who have been taken to proxy torturers as part of the "extraordinary rendition" program,in order to bypass human rights laws to which our government has previously agreed to honor.

While we are prosecuting and torturing the potentially innocent, there is almost no notice of the war crimes committed by the current administrationof which the Downing Street memos provide evidence.

"May 17 - The White House's top lawyer warned more than two years ago that U.S. officials could be prosecuted for "war crimes" as a result of new and unorthodox measures used by the Bush administration in the war on terrorism, according to an internal White House memo and interviews with participants in the debate over the issue."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4999734/site/newsweek/

Mike

Chris Lloyd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Benladin and his lot that wreaked havoc upon NYC, not Iraq, "stupid."I'm not even sure that he knew about the attack, I saw the firstvideo he put out after 9/11 with the corrected voice over. He neverclaimed responsibility for himself or his terror groups. He did say hethought that America got what it disserved and the people who did itwere heroes. I would have thought that after pulling off an attack likethat he would have bragged about it like he did with his attacks inAfghanistan. Has anybody actually been convicted for being directly involved inthe 9/11 attack, the only people arrested/convicted in the UK have beendone for "Being members of a terrorist organisation" or even beingfriends of someone thought to be a member of a terrorist organisation.After arresting nearly 400 people in the UK less than 10 have
 beenconvicted or sent to the US. Chris. Wessex Ferret Club (http://www.wessexferretclub.co.uk)-- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.11/44 - Release Date:08/07/2005___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Greetings Robert,
Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote 
against the nonsense that is going on in the states.  Actually, when I was 
in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was American because my 
French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french.  At least that is what 
the Canadian propaganda stated.  That and southern Albertans tend to have a 
bit of a drawl, after all, it is Texas North, isn't it?  Most people, even 
here is Texas are surprised to find out I am Canadian.  I always thought 
that identifying with a country was kind of silly.  I do believe it was 
Erasmus that was the original citizen of the world, too bad his ideas 
didn't lay a bigger egg that the one Luther hatched.

Have a good weekend.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 01:24 PM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings,
I don't disagree, but Canada does so much of the US's dirty work, that 
anyone who is knowledgeable is going to tar Canada with the same brush.


Perhaps you are correct.  However, the perception of the United 
States in much of the world is fundamentally different than the 
perception of Canada, and a great part of that perception stems from 
American foreign policy.



 I am real tired of Canadians self righteous muck about the US, when 
they are in bed with Monsanto et al, just the same.


You bring up an excellent point, Kim.  Others have also 
underlined the concept that the U.S. is merely the latest in a LONG 
STRING of international bullies.  The problem with my nation begins 
somewhere in the human heart.  The same is true elsewhere.



Kim
A World citizen with a Canadian passport.



robert luis rabello
A citizen of God's Kingdom with an American passport.



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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


"I do believe it was Erasmus that was the original citizen of the world, too bad his ideas didn't lay a bigger egg that the one Luther hatched."

Good point Kim.

We have been effected by (infected with) the legacy of both Luther and Calvin.


MAX WEBER ON RELIGION AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENThttp://www.unm.edu/~nvaldes/371/Lect17.htm
Mike
Garth  Kim Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Greetings Robert,Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote against the nonsense that is going on in the states. Actually, when I was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was American because my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french. At least that is what the Canadian propaganda stated. That and southern Albertans tend to have a bit of a drawl, after all, it is Texas North, isn't it? Most people, even here is Texas are surprised to find out I am Canadian. I always thought that identifying with a country was kind of silly. I do believe it was Erasmus that was the original citizen of the world, too bad his ideas didn't lay a bigger egg that the one Luther hatched.Have a good weekend.Bright Blessings,Kim___
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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Garth  Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings Robert,
Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote 
against the nonsense that is going on in the states.


	I DO vote, Kim.  For the first time in my life, during the last 
election, I held my nose and voted for a Democrat!  The problem I saw 
at that time was that Mr. Kerry didn't seem to be fundamentally 
different in his platform than was the case for Mr. Bush.  Some will 
argue this with me, but it seems, from my perspective, that we've been 
dealing with two sides of a single coin for a long time.


	We've talked about radical reform on this list in the past.  The 
Declaration of Independence advocates the forceful overthrow of any 
government not acting in the interest of its people.  I don't advocate 
violence, so from my perspective, the reform process begins with 
discussions of this nature, in forums such as this one.


	I would like to see greater freedom AND responsibility for 
individuals.  (The latter would include responsibility for bringing 
children into the world, and a sliding scale for health insurance 
premiums based upon lifestyle choices.  For example, if you smoke, 
your health insurance should cover palliative care when you develop 
lung cancer or heart disease, and nothing more.  We need to be 
responsible for our own stupidity!)  I would like the Homestead Act 
reinstated.  I would like the rights set forth in the Bill of Rights 
to extend to citizens, not corporations.  I would like local churches 
to act as catalysts in improving their communities.  I want REAL 
reform of energy policy, with responsible improvements in efficiency, 
investing in technology and products available RIGHT NOW that can 
significantly reduce our energy consumption.


	Education reform, limits on the political power of unions and 
lobbyists, the abolition of agribusiness, a fundamental redesign of 
the transportation networks in our cities to reduce dependence on 
automobiles, investment in infrastructure and a total reformulating of 
national defense policies are essential.  I would like to see a 
national propaganda campaign promoting the values of thrift, of 
limiting consumption and conservation of resources and wild places.


I can go on and on about these kinds of things. . .

	I vote.  I speak out.  Those of us who can, should advocate to take 
our country back.


Actually, when I 
was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was American because 
my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french.  At least that is 
what the Canadian propaganda stated.


	Out here in the west, there is quite a bit of animosity toward Quebec 
for the power it wields in Canadian politics, and the mandate of 
French language instruction.  However, my eldest son is in the French 
Immersion program because we as a family believe in the benefits of 
multilingual education.




I always thought that identifying with a country was kind of silly.


	There's nothing wrong with identifying with a country, as long as 
that identity doesn't preclude the merit of someone else belonging to 
a different country.



robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: Jill - Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Bill Fenech

You end with this:

 Give us arguments that haven't
 already been dealt with multiple times in the list archives, or don't
 give us any more arguments at all.


which was proceeded by this:

 Don't try to dictate to them what
 they should or shouldn't discuss here.
 
 Anyway messages have subject titles, nobody's forcing you to read
 anything you don't want to read, biofuels discussions continue all
 the while.


Quite hypocritical of you. I suggest you take your own adviceif
you don't like what Jill has to say, don't read it.

And spare me this puerile 'advice' of suggesting she should wade
through thousands of messages. Why should she waste her time?

For the record, Noam Chomsky is the goofball that first denied that
the Khmer Rouge were committing genocide in Cambodia, and then when
the facts of what had gone on there came out, changed his tune and
blamed it on the US. If that doesn't tell you something about his
credibility (or rather lack of), nothing will.

Regards
Bill Fenech



On 7/8/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Ulp... Um, welcome new member Jill.
 
 Well, it's a nice clear picture of the disconnect anyway, sheer
 essence of mass cognitive dissonance. Totally fact-free but totally
 confident too and I'll bet it's undentable. It couldn't have survived
 this far if it wasn't undentable, in view of the glut of disproofs,
 revelations and admissions which shot it all down long ago. I'm not
 even going to try, I just hope I get to stick to that.
 
 A warning from the list owner, Jill, see below.
 
 Okay,
 
 I joined this list to talk about how to create  run engines on biofuel, now
 I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box?
 
 When you joined the list you were sent a Welcome message, which
 you're obliged to read. It referred to the List rules, which you're
 also obliged to read. The List rules are here:
 http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200
 5-May/07.html
 
 See especially the first two sections, Rights and obligations and
 Open discussion, and the Note at the end.
 
 You joined for your own reasons to talk about what you want to talk
 about, and so did everyone else here. You talk about respect but you
 don't acknowledge that each of them has as much right as you do to
 their very diverse range of views. Don't try to dictate to them what
 they should or shouldn't discuss here.
 
 Anyway messages have subject titles, nobody's forcing you to read
 anything you don't want to read, biofuels discussions continue all
 the while.
 
 It also says this in the List rules: If you don't see what you're
 interested in, just ask. Or check the archives first to see if it has
 been dealt with previously, and then ask.
 
 It would be nice if you were respectful enough to check what's gone
 before instead of forcing us to go through it all over again yet
 another time, at this belated stage when it's way beyond any credible
 defence. The list wasn't born yesterday. There are 50,000 messages in
 the archives, posted over five years from all over the world. Check
 what you're claiming in the archives first, which doesn't mean just
 ignoring everything that disagrees with you. You're not exactly the
 first to make these claims, but nobody's made any of them stick, nor
 even managed to make a half-decent case once there were facts to be
 faced rather than just myths. Can you give us any arguments that
 haven't already been dealt with multiple times in the list archives
 and everywhere else too?
 
 Seriously, check it first. Don't expect us to do it for you and waste
 our time digging it all up again, do your own homework, we did ours
 already. We've dealt with all your arguments before, they are found
 wanting, to put it very mildly. Give us arguments that haven't
 already been dealt with multiple times in the list archives, or don't
 give us any more arguments at all.
 
 Best wishes
 
 Keith Addison
 Journey to Forever
 KYOTO Pref., Japan
 http://journeytoforever.org/
 Biofuel list owner
 
 
 This debate
 runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks
 tremendously.  However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not
 stating that people have lack of and disjointed reasoning and stating to
 get their head out of their own stink.  In doing this, you insult all of
 us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.
 
 Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support.  If YOU
 look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.
 Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the
 most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've
 reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news
 and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality
 is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves
 up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid

2005-07-08 Thread Jerry Turner

...struck a nerve did I.  :)

 Okay, mission accomplished :)   :):)

 Jerry Turner



- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Jill,

Should you be able to rationalize within some degree of reason how Mr.
Turner's remarks were not due to lack of and disjointed reasoning, and
how the malodorous stink generated by such ill ferment is spread to the
four winds as seed to bespoil whatever fertile ground on which it may
land, then I would surely consider modifying or perhaps even retracting
one or two of my remarks.

On the other hand, as Mr. Turner's remarks are aggregiously in error and
his purpose is blatantly apparent as one to politicize and malign in the
effort to diminutize and dissassociate truth from reality, he opens
himself up for the full gell coat that his foolishness affords him, no
matter whether it be in a public forum or not. Preferable that it be
public for the entire world to see.

Life is too short to molly coddle persons who feign to be adults in the
effort to not offend their delicate sensibilities.

And if you don't believe that such myopic mindsets don't have anything
to do with biofuels, just examine the wrong-mindedness of the present US
administration accross the board. The same disjointed, erroneous and
fabricated reasoning that has been applied to Iraq is being applied to
fuel efficiency, conservation, natural resources, global warming,
nuclear power, proliferation and trade - all of which are, were and will
be connected long before and long after Dubbya is gone.

As for your complaints about talk show chatter? You bitch about
opposing view point and then go on to read a full page, chapter and
verse, as to the opinions of your favorite, radical, right-wing,
so-ultra-'conservative'-as-to-have-long-since-fallen-off-the-edge-of-the-flat-Earth
talk show host yesterday. What's up with that?

You say that differing opinions are what's beautiful about this
country. (The US.) But you denegrate not only differing opinons from
your own, but others who tend to rely more upon fact than opinion.

Perhaps you'd care to explain away your own inconsistancy and doble
standards on those two accounts?  Such incongruities are okay when they
suit your purpose and anything that doesn't suit your purpose or opinion
is apparently not okay? Apparently differing opinions are what make your
world so beautiful, because without them you wouldn't have a podium from
which to bitch?

Oh..., by the by, if you have the time (doubtful, but if) pulling up
but a few installments of Limbaughtomized archives (much less the past
thirteen) will reveal that your favorite talk show host is far more of a
war-monger than the peace maker that you romatacize him to be. And he's
always been that way. Most folks find that a continual diet of such
showmanship peppered swill leaves them so socially emaciated - at all
levels - that they must find a more balanced diet lest they starve
themselves.

Death by nationalism. It's happened before and is returning to a theatre
near you.

Todd Swearingen

Have you been Limbaughtomized yet?



Jill Mello wrote:

Okay,

I joined this list to talk about how to create  run engines on biofuel, 
now
I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box?  This debate
runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks
tremendously.  However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not
stating that people have lack of and disjointed reasoning and stating to
get their head out of their own stink.  In doing this, you insult all of
us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.

Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support.  If 
YOU
look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.
Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the
most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've
reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news
and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality
is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves
up, encouraged the terrorist training camps, supplied Bin Laden with safe
have, worked with Syria to provide comfort to our enemy and threatened us
with creating nuclear arms.

Does this mean that Iran and N. Korea should be ignored?  No, as Iran is a
complicated mess and N. Korea has a leader who is varifiably insane.  Both
would love to wipe us off the map.  But, Iraq being a healthy country will
help us in influencing other countries to discourage terrorists.

You do not have to agree with me, that's what is beautiful about this
country.  I have friends fighting and training Iraqi troops, their culture
is one of fear, they don't dare disagree with a leader, it's been ingrained
in them from birth.  It will take some

[Biofuel] Raising Chickens

2005-07-08 Thread Tom Irwin

Hello,

I just finished reading Friend Earthworm by George Sheffield Oliver. Is anyone 
using these methods successfully today to raise poultry? It makes some sense 
and would seem to keep costs low. I might give it a try myself after ramping up 
biodiesel production. The cost structure must need some updating.

Tom Irwin
 

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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Jerry Turner,

Struck a nerve? Hardly. Just that this house doesn't cotton to fools 
all that well.


Mission accomplished? So your intent is to lavishly spew ignorance and 
stupidity? You don't have anything better to do with the one human 
existance you were graciously given?


Go ahead. Knock yourself out. Waste the talents you were given in 
destructive pursuit. Take as many as you like along with you.


I for one, consider that to be the mindset of a terrorist. Every bit as 
lethal in its own right and equally as destructive.


If there is a God, no doubt neither he or she is terribly pleased with 
the wastefulness of your endeavors..


Todd Swearingen


Jerry Turner wrote:


...struck a nerve did I.  :)

Okay, mission accomplished :)   :):)

Jerry Turner



- Original Message - 
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Jill,

Should you be able to rationalize within some degree of reason how Mr.
Turner's remarks were not due to lack of and disjointed reasoning, and
how the malodorous stink generated by such ill ferment is spread to the
four winds as seed to bespoil whatever fertile ground on which it may
land, then I would surely consider modifying or perhaps even retracting
one or two of my remarks.

On the other hand, as Mr. Turner's remarks are aggregiously in error and
his purpose is blatantly apparent as one to politicize and malign in the
effort to diminutize and dissassociate truth from reality, he opens
himself up for the full gell coat that his foolishness affords him, no
matter whether it be in a public forum or not. Preferable that it be
public for the entire world to see.

Life is too short to molly coddle persons who feign to be adults in the
effort to not offend their delicate sensibilities.

And if you don't believe that such myopic mindsets don't have anything
to do with biofuels, just examine the wrong-mindedness of the present US
administration accross the board. The same disjointed, erroneous and
fabricated reasoning that has been applied to Iraq is being applied to
fuel efficiency, conservation, natural resources, global warming,
nuclear power, proliferation and trade - all of which are, were and will
be connected long before and long after Dubbya is gone.

As for your complaints about talk show chatter? You bitch about
opposing view point and then go on to read a full page, chapter and
verse, as to the opinions of your favorite, radical, right-wing,
so-ultra-'conservative'-as-to-have-long-since-fallen-off-the-edge-of-the-flat-Earth
talk show host yesterday. What's up with that?

You say that differing opinions are what's beautiful about this
country. (The US.) But you denegrate not only differing opinons from
your own, but others who tend to rely more upon fact than opinion.

Perhaps you'd care to explain away your own inconsistancy and doble
standards on those two accounts?  Such incongruities are okay when they
suit your purpose and anything that doesn't suit your purpose or opinion
is apparently not okay? Apparently differing opinions are what make your
world so beautiful, because without them you wouldn't have a podium from
which to bitch?

Oh..., by the by, if you have the time (doubtful, but if) pulling up
but a few installments of Limbaughtomized archives (much less the past
thirteen) will reveal that your favorite talk show host is far more of a
war-monger than the peace maker that you romatacize him to be. And he's
always been that way. Most folks find that a continual diet of such
showmanship peppered swill leaves them so socially emaciated - at all
levels - that they must find a more balanced diet lest they starve
themselves.

Death by nationalism. It's happened before and is returning to a theatre
near you.

Todd Swearingen

Have you been Limbaughtomized yet?



Jill Mello wrote:

 


Okay,

I joined this list to talk about how to create  run engines on biofuel, 
now

I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box?  This debate
runs into our daily lives and affects our thoughts and pocketbooks
tremendously.  However, it would be nice if we were respectful by not
stating that people have lack of and disjointed reasoning and stating to
get their head out of their own stink.  In doing this, you insult all of
us who have the view that the war in Irag is essential to our security.

Baghdad, for the past 30 years, was THE hotbed of terrorist support.  If 
YOU

look at the information out there, you will find the basis for the war.
Most people I know, and I'm from the New England, next to California, the
most liberal minded area of the country, have found that once they've
reviewed ALL the information out there, not just what they hear on the news
and in the newspapers (God help us with the Boston Globe!) that the reality
is that Hussein PAID, in thousands of US dollars, people to blow themselves
up, encouraged the terrorist

[Biofuel] E85 vs Biodiesel




I just joined this list after I came across it while "googling" for 
information on ethanol and biodiesel fueled vehicles. 

One question that I was researching concerned the cost-effectiveness of E85 
vs biodiesel fueled cars.The answer may be out there in Internet 
land, but so far I haven't found it.I'll continue my search, but 
perhaps someone out there has the answer and can save me some time. 

I currently drive a 2004 Prius (43,000 miles so far, and it's a fantastic 
vehicle for getting around. MPG ranges from low 40s to upper 50s, 
depending on temperature, traffic, speed, etc.). As far as I can 
tell, the Prius cannot use E85, although I would hope a future version 
will. ASSUMING I could buy an E85 compatiblePrius in the near future 
or, as an alternative, a biodiesel fueled VW of similar size, functionality, 
etc., to the Prius, which would be the cost-effective choice? Any 
thoughts/insights on this question would be appreciated.

(With the political situations in the oil producing countries becoming only 
more problematic [I wonder what George W.  Co. thought when they found out 
that Iran, one of the Axis of Evil countries, is initiating military cooperation 
with"free" Iraq], I wouldexpect that interest in biofuels will be 
accelerating even more than it has the past few years.)

BTW, does anyone know what price range E85 is selling for in the US 
mid-Atlantic states?

Bob


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Re: Jill - Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Hello Bill


You end with this:

 Give us arguments that haven't
 already been dealt with multiple times in the list archives, or don't
 give us any more arguments at all.


Yes.


which was proceeded by this:

 Don't try to dictate to them what
 they should or shouldn't discuss here.

 Anyway messages have subject titles, nobody's forcing you to read
 anything you don't want to read, biofuels discussions continue all
 the while.


Yes.


Quite hypocritical of you.


No.


I suggest you take your own adviceif
you don't like what Jill has to say, don't read it.


There are a couple of things you fail to notice. One is this:


 The list wasn't born yesterday. There are 50,000 messages in
 the archives, posted over five years from all over the world.


Five years. Jill's a newcomer, that was her first message, and you've 
only been here a couple of months.


Another is that the List rules I referred to say it's a discussion 
list, not a less-discussion list, and it's not an endlessly repeated 
discussion list either.


The rules encourage members to use the archives, to prevent just 
that, among other things. Some subjects are worth another airing, but 
this isn't one of them. Threads have had to be stopped before now, 
with loud demand from the general membership, because they were going 
round and round and getting nowhere, and in fact chasing people away. 
One of them went on for about 200 futile posts. It's not a 
fruitless-argument list either.


And you're not the one to decide, you don't even have a keyhole view.


And spare me this puerile 'advice' of suggesting she should wade
through thousands of messages. Why should she waste her time?


I won't spare you. Puerile yourself.


For the record, Noam Chomsky is the goofball that first denied that
the Khmer Rouge were committing genocide in Cambodia, and then when
the facts of what had gone on there came out, changed his tune and
blamed it on the US. If that doesn't tell you something about his
credibility (or rather lack of), nothing will.


For the record huh. Much of this record is also to be found in 
previous discussions in the list archives, and it's a different 
record.


In fact it's just slander, it's been discredited and corrected many 
times, but it keeps getting regurgitated nonetheless, by the WSJ, for 
instance. Some people believe what they want to believe and judge 
credibility by how well it fits with their cherished notions and 
comfortable assumptions. Try checking it against verifiable facts 
instead.


This is what Chomsky and Herman wrote about the Khmer Rouge:
http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/7706-distortions.html
Distortions at 4th Hand

Other cases are dealt with by Christopher Hitchens in an 
investigatioin of the charges being levelled against Chomsky:

http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/other/85-hitchens.html
The Chorus and Cassandra

From the record, please provide credible, well-reasoned and 
well-referenced evidence that what you say happened with Chomsky and 
the Khmer Rouge really did happen and what Chomsky and Hitchens say 
didn't happen. The usual tactics of kicking up a smokescreen or 
label-and-dismiss sight unseen, what you just did with Chomsky, won't 
be acceptable. When you've done that explain how it discredits what 
he is now saying about Iraq.


Something else you didn't notice was that my message to Jill was 
signed List owner, and so is this one to you. In other words I'm 
not asking you, I'm telling you.


Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner




Regards
Bill Fenech



On 7/8/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Ulp... Um, welcome new member Jill.

 Well, it's a nice clear picture of the disconnect anyway, sheer
 essence of mass cognitive dissonance. Totally fact-free but totally
 confident too and I'll bet it's undentable. It couldn't have survived
 this far if it wasn't undentable, in view of the glut of disproofs,
 revelations and admissions which shot it all down long ago. I'm not
 even going to try, I just hope I get to stick to that.

 A warning from the list owner, Jill, see below.

 Okay,
 
 I joined this list to talk about how to create  run engines on 
biofuel, now

 I find I'm bombarded with talk show chatter in my e-mail box?

 When you joined the list you were sent a Welcome message, which
 you're obliged to read. It referred to the List rules, which you're
 also obliged to read. The List rules are here:
 http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200
 5-May/07.html

 See especially the first two sections, Rights and obligations and
 Open discussion, and the Note at the end.

 You joined for your own reasons to talk about what you want to talk
 about, and so did everyone else here. You talk about respect but you
 don't acknowledge that each of them has as much right as you do to
 their very diverse range of views. Don't try to dictate to them what
 they should or shouldn't discuss here.

Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid





Jill,

I think your lengthy posting about the content of this list was 
well-intentioned, but as a number of responses have indicated, problematic for 
some of us.

Just a few things I wanted to point out.

Regarding your statement that "Baghdad, for the past 30 [1975-2005] years, 
was THE hotbed of terrorist support." It is my understanding that in 
February 1982 the State Department (under the Reagan Administration) removed 
Iraq from its list of states supporting international terrorism. And then 
there's the (in?)famous meeting of current Defense Secretary Rumsfeld with 
Saddam Hussein in which areas of common interest were discussed.

You also mention that Iran and North Korea would love to destroy us, 
although you do imply maybe the driving force in North Korea is their unstable 
leader. Statements like that bring to mind other statements, usually 
made by those on the far right and irresponsible talk show types, along the 
lines that we should bomb the offending countries into smithereens. 
Sadly tens of millions of innocent individuals, most of whom have suffered 
hugely under the evil leaders who are perceived to, or actually, threaten us, 
would die or suffer even more enormously.So a caution to avoid 
talking as though countries or their peoples are necessarily the ones posing the 
threats per se.

Regarding Iraq as a healthy country, I do not see it as a healthy 
development that Iraq's leadership is thumbing it's nose at us by entering into 
military relationships with Iran, who you'll remember was one of George Bush's 
Axis of Evil and in his words, a leading sponsor of terrorism.

Finally, your quote from Rush included some high-minded words. 
However, I see a great deal of dissonance between those words and the hateful, 
fear mongering, words that too often spew from his mouth. Interesting that 
he speaks of "God-given freedom." Well, as a sometime agnostic, I 
can't say what God's role has been in our freedoms. What I can say, 
and say unequivocably I think -- as someone who has served during the Vietnam 
era and the descendant of many generations of soldiers -- is that our freedoms 
were earned in significant part by the blood and dedication of many brave 
individuals.It certainly angers me to no end to hear the 
pontifications of the "chicken hawks" who support the Iraq war and question the 
patriotism of anyone who questions Bush  Co.'s motivations or competence in 
waging this war. (Sorry, I just had to vent on that last one.)

Bob
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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


...struck a nerve did I.  :)

Okay, mission accomplished :)   :):)

Jerry Turner


No it's not. You made some very wild claims and six list members have 
questioned you on them.


It says this in the List rules too: If someone questions you, don't 
just ignore them. You should be prepared to substantiate what you 
say, or to acknowledge it if you can't. Admitting you were wrong 
doesn't mean you lose face, it gains you respect.
http://sustainablelists.org/pipermail/biofuel_sustainablelists.org/200 
5-May/07.html


Your mission will be accomplished when you've responded with 
something more substantial than a two-line sneer. You have one day.


Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner





- Original Message -
From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Jill,

Should you be able to rationalize within some degree of reason how Mr.
Turner's remarks were not due to lack of and disjointed reasoning, and
how the malodorous stink generated by such ill ferment is spread to the
four winds as seed to bespoil whatever fertile ground on which it may
land, then I would surely consider modifying or perhaps even retracting
one or two of my remarks.


snip


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Re: [Biofuel] Titrating with KOH

2005-07-08 Thread ings . group


Hello Bill:

Firstly, I apologize to the actual author, I simply cut and paste into a  
file of important notes:


KOH is not as strong as NaOH -- use 1.4 times as much KOH (actually
1.4025 times). Titration is the same, just use a 0.1% KOH solution
instead of NaOH solution, and use 1 gm of KOH for every milliliter of
0.1% solution used in the titration. But instead of the basic 3.5
grams of NaOH lye per liter of oil, use 3.5 x 1.4 = 4.9 grams of KOH.
So, if your titration was 5 ml, use 5 + 4.9 = 9.9 gm KOH per liter of
oil.

...One more complication -- check the purity of your KOH, it's
generally not as pure as NaOH. Anhydrous grade KOH flake is usually
about 92%, sometimes less -- check the label. We use half-pearls
assayed at 85%. Adjust the basic quantity accordingly: the basic 4.9
grams would be 5.8 (5.775) grams for 85% KOH, or 5.3 (5.33) grams for
92% KOH.


Ray

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:11:56 -0400, Bill Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:



Hello Keith and all,

I have a question regarding titration with KOH. When making your  
titration
solution (1 g KOH/ L distilled water) is itn necesary to adjust for the  
percent
of your KOH, i.e. 90.5%? I am making the adjustment for the basic 3.5  
grans NaOH
to 5.4 grams KOH. However, I made no adjustments when making the  
titration

solution.

Any help is appreciated.

Bill Clark

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[Biofuel] out with the wash

2005-07-08 Thread Vincent zadworny




hey everyone,

first and foremost thanks for everyone who uses this list. i have been learning more than i would have thought in a small amount of time because of the people on this list. and it seems that when ever i have a question there are others at the same point as me asking the same things which make me feel like i am on the right track.

after a few ugly batches in my homemade plant (most due to lack of agitation)
i have finally produced a good batch. i still have one more wash to go. it is still cloudy and will heat it and pass it through a marine filter to help remove any water left in it. A question about all those crap batches that i have sitting in barrels, they have sat out in the open air and sun for about a month or two and am wondering if they can just go down the drain?? also i have been looking into the process of adding glycerin back into the unreacted mix to try a remix anymore info on that ??

thanks again for all the help past present and future

vince z

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Re: [Biofuel] Titrating with KOH


Hello Ray, Bill


Hello Bill:

Firstly, I apologize to the actual author, I simply cut and paste 
into a  file of important notes:


That's okay, I'm the author. I'd have just given the url, so this is 
better. Anyway, this is the url:


http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#lye
Make your own biodiesel - More about lye

Best wishes

Keith



KOH is not as strong as NaOH -- use 1.4 times as much KOH (actually
1.4025 times). Titration is the same, just use a 0.1% KOH solution
instead of NaOH solution, and use 1 gm of KOH for every milliliter of
0.1% solution used in the titration. But instead of the basic 3.5
grams of NaOH lye per liter of oil, use 3.5 x 1.4 = 4.9 grams of KOH.
So, if your titration was 5 ml, use 5 + 4.9 = 9.9 gm KOH per liter of
oil.

...One more complication -- check the purity of your KOH, it's
generally not as pure as NaOH. Anhydrous grade KOH flake is usually
about 92%, sometimes less -- check the label. We use half-pearls
assayed at 85%. Adjust the basic quantity accordingly: the basic 4.9
grams would be 5.8 (5.775) grams for 85% KOH, or 5.3 (5.33) grams for
92% KOH.


Ray

On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:11:56 -0400, Bill Clark 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  wrote:



Hello Keith and all,

I have a question regarding titration with KOH. When making your  titration
solution (1 g KOH/ L distilled water) is itn necesary to adjust for 
the  percent
of your KOH, i.e. 90.5%? I am making the adjustment for the basic 
3.5  grans NaOH

to 5.4 grams KOH. However, I made no adjustments when making the  titration
solution.

Any help is appreciated.

Bill Clark


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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Biofuel] Titrating with KOH

2005-07-08 Thread WCOTE

Isn't the titration solution a 1% solution and not (one tenth of one 
percent)?

- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Friday, July 8, 2005 4:13 pm
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Titrating with KOH

 Hello Bill:

 Firstly, I apologize to the actual author, I simply cut and paste 
 into a  
 file of important notes:

 KOH is not as strong as NaOH -- use 1.4 times as much KOH (actually
 1.4025 times). Titration is the same, just use a 0.1% KOH solution
 instead of NaOH solution, and use 1 gm of KOH for every milliliter of
 0.1% solution used in the titration. But instead of the basic 3.5
 grams of NaOH lye per liter of oil, use 3.5 x 1.4 = 4.9 grams of KOH.
 So, if your titration was 5 ml, use 5 + 4.9 = 9.9 gm KOH per liter of
 oil.

 ...One more complication -- check the purity of your KOH, it's
 generally not as pure as NaOH. Anhydrous grade KOH flake is usually
 about 92%, sometimes less -- check the label. We use half-pearls
 assayed at 85%. Adjust the basic quantity accordingly: the basic 4.9
 grams would be 5.8 (5.775) grams for 85% KOH, or 5.3 (5.33) grams for
 92% KOH.

 Ray

 On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:11:56 -0400, Bill Clark 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
 wrote:

  Hello Keith and all,

  I have a question regarding titration with KOH. When making your 

  titration
  solution (1 g KOH/ L distilled water) is itn necesary to adjust 
 for the  
  percent
  of your KOH, i.e. 90.5%? I am making the adjustment for the 
 basic 3.5  
  grans NaOH
  to 5.4 grams KOH. However, I made no adjustments when making the 

  titration
  solution.

  Any help is appreciated.

  Bill Clark

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[Biofuel] Fwd: Ethanol from corn vs Biodiesel from soy,etc.





---BeginMessage---



I have read various estimates about the net fuel gain from the production 
of ethanol from corn vs the production of biodiesel from soy. (I'm 
aware that ethanol and biodiesel can be produced from other sources as well, but 
corn and soy seem to be dominate in the US.) While the estimates 
vary, I would say that consistently the estimates for soy biodiesel are 
considerably more favorable than for corn ethanol. I'm poorly informed on 
the economics of farming, but it would seem that farmers/ag corporations would 
seea greater profit potential in biodiesel, and that that would be good 
for the public at large as well. 

Does anyone have any thoughts/information on why farmers wouldn't switch 
from corn to soy for the biofuel market? Is it a matter of "market," in 
the sense that there's more demand for the ethanol? Of the infrastructure 
cost of switching? Or?

I apologize if there is information on this topic in the archives and that 
I was too inept to find it, and I apologize if my questions are 
"naive." It seems to me that biofuels will play a critical role in 
the national security, economy, environment, and human welfare in many countries 
and I'm trying to educate myself on the issues.

Bob
---End Message---
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Re: [Biofuel] It's imperialism, stupid


Greetings,
The last election that I was able to vote in was in 1988.  The last time I 
contacted a Senator to complain about a policy being put in place, I was 
told that this is not my country and that if I didn't like it I could go 
back where I came from.  I have 4 more years to go before I can apply for 
citizenship and then I can have a say.  While I am not proud of what 
America has become, I do live here and I am not planning on leaving, so I 
will take citizenship so I can have a say in how sane or insane life is to be.


I don't believe that violence would accomplish much of anything at this 
point, all it does is get tempers up and brains turned off.  Triggering the 
defence mechanism is not how to effect change for the better.  We live a 
sane life, working to establish a sustainable farm and having the teenagers 
come and visit and see what we are doing.  Some of them are getting rather 
interested in biofuels, are learning that being cool is worthless, and the 
value of having the skills to look after oneself.  We try to live as if the 
world was the way we want it to be, funny thing, the people aren't laughing 
at us as much as they used to.


You and I aren't all that far apart.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 03:03 PM 7/8/2005, you wrote:

Garth  Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings Robert,
Wouldn't it be nice if we could just trade passports, then I could vote 
against the nonsense that is going on in the states.


I DO vote, Kim.  For the first time in my life, during the last 
election, I held my nose and voted for a Democrat!  The problem I saw at 
that time was that Mr. Kerry didn't seem to be fundamentally different in 
his platform than was the case for Mr. Bush.  Some will argue this with 
me, but it seems, from my perspective, that we've been dealing with two 
sides of a single coin for a long time.


We've talked about radical reform on this list in the past.  The 
Declaration of Independence advocates the forceful overthrow of any 
government not acting in the interest of its people.  I don't advocate 
violence, so from my perspective, the reform process begins with 
discussions of this nature, in forums such as this one.


I would like to see greater freedom AND responsibility for 
individuals.  (The latter would include responsibility for bringing 
children into the world, and a sliding scale for health insurance 
premiums based upon lifestyle choices.  For example, if you smoke, your 
health insurance should cover palliative care when you develop lung 
cancer or heart disease, and nothing more.  We need to be responsible for 
our own stupidity!)  I would like the Homestead Act reinstated.  I would 
like the rights set forth in the Bill of Rights to extend to citizens, 
not corporations.  I would like local churches to act as catalysts in 
improving their communities.  I want REAL reform of energy policy, with 
responsible improvements in efficiency, investing in technology and 
products available RIGHT NOW that can significantly reduce our energy 
consumption.


Education reform, limits on the political power of unions and 
lobbyists, the abolition of agribusiness, a fundamental redesign of the 
transportation networks in our cities to reduce dependence on 
automobiles, investment in infrastructure and a total reformulating of 
national defense policies are essential.  I would like to see a national 
propaganda campaign promoting the values of thrift, of limiting 
consumption and conservation of resources and wild places.


I can go on and on about these kinds of things. . .

I vote.  I speak out.  Those of us who can, should advocate to 
take our country back.


Actually, when I was in France back in the 1980s, everyone assumed I was 
American because my French is so poor and All Canadians spoke french.  At 
least that is what the Canadian propaganda stated.


Out here in the west, there is quite a bit of animosity toward 
Quebec for the power it wields in Canadian politics, and the mandate of 
French language instruction.  However, my eldest son is in the French 
Immersion program because we as a family believe in the benefits of 
multilingual education.




I always thought that identifying with a country was kind of silly.


There's nothing wrong with identifying with a country, as long as 
that identity doesn't preclude the merit of someone else belonging to a 
different country.



robert luis rabello
The Edge of Justice
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] out with the wash


Uhhh.Vincent,

 A question about all those crap batches that i have sitting in
 barrels, they have sat out in the open air and sun for about
 a month or two and am wondering if they can just go down the
 drain??

My hearing is a little off, right? You wouldn't pour barrels of veg 
oil and fat down the drain, would you?


First, determine just what it is that you have. At worst you may have a 
lifetime supply of oil for tiki torches. At best you may have feedstock 
that's salvageable.


Keep each batch seperate as it is now and take samples one at a time, 
experimenting with reprocessing.


If reprocessing doesn't seem to work when using an already alcohol laden 
sample, then boil off the alcohol from a clean sample and try again. 
The reason being that the soaps and biodiesel are both solvent in 
alcohol.. Sometimes if the excess alochol volume is removed the soap and 
glycerol can drop. Not always, as it depends upon the level of reaction 
completion. But sometimes. This type of tinkering occassionally works 
with extremely high FFA content feedstock when a batch appears to not 
have taken.


But whatever you do? Don't just flush it!!! It not only has an energy 
value but dumping or flushing it certainly isn't exactly environmentally 
benign. Doubtful that all the methanol evaporated, even in an open 
barrel over a month long period.


Todd Swearingen


Vincent zadworny wrote:


hey everyone,
 
first and foremost thanks for everyone who uses this list. i have been 
learning more than i would have thought in a small amount of time 
because of the people on this list. and it seems that when ever i have 
a question there are others at the same point as me asking the same 
things which make me feel like i am on the right track.
 
after a few ugly batches in my homemade plant (most due to lack of 
agitation)
i have finally produced a good batch. i still have one more wash to 
go. it is still cloudy and will heat it and pass it through a marine 
filter to help remove any water left in it. A question about all those 
crap batches that i have sitting in barrels, they have sat out in the 
open air and sun for about a month or two and am wondering if they can 
just go down the drain?? also i have been looking into the process of 
adding glycerin back into the unreacted mix to try a remix anymore 
info on that ??
 
thanks again for all the help past present and future
 
vince z
 
vancouver BC


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Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?

2005-07-08 Thread capt3d

ryan,

if you want to eliminate meat from your diet, then you need to find another 
way of getting the protein meat provides.   there aren't many 'veggies' (at 
least, as i understand the word) which contain much protein.  the primary 
non-animal protein sources are cereals/grains, potatoes, beans (like black, 
pinto, 
soy), and the right kinds of corn (maize) when properly prepared.   for the 
most 
part, none of these is sufficient in and of itself, since they do not contain 
the complete amino acid set required for the human diet.

-chris b.
---BeginMessage---

Ken,
I am curious, what do you eat if you don't eat meat.  I have been attempting 
to give up beef.  Mostly because a good friend of mine runs a testing lab at 
a beef plant in Colorado.  The things he tells me makes me not want beef 
anymore.  Especially when he talks about mad cow.  I don't think most 
Americans know what it will do, furthermore we think we are invincible.


Do you only eat veggies, or do you eat meat substitutes, or both?

Ryan 



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Re: [Biofuel] Titrating with KOH

2005-07-08 Thread Bill Clark

Thanks Keith and Ray.

Bill Clark
- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Titrating with KOH

 Hello Bill:

 Firstly, I apologize to the actual author, I simply cut and paste into a
 file of important notes:

 KOH is not as strong as NaOH -- use 1.4 times as much KOH (actually
 1.4025 times). Titration is the same, just use a 0.1% KOH solution
 instead of NaOH solution, and use 1 gm of KOH for every milliliter of
 0.1% solution used in the titration. But instead of the basic 3.5
 grams of NaOH lye per liter of oil, use 3.5 x 1.4 = 4.9 grams of KOH.
 So, if your titration was 5 ml, use 5 + 4.9 = 9.9 gm KOH per liter of
 oil.

 ...One more complication -- check the purity of your KOH, it's
 generally not as pure as NaOH. Anhydrous grade KOH flake is usually
 about 92%, sometimes less -- check the label. We use half-pearls
 assayed at 85%. Adjust the basic quantity accordingly: the basic 4.9
 grams would be 5.8 (5.775) grams for 85% KOH, or 5.3 (5.33) grams for
 92% KOH.

 Ray

 On Fri, 08 Jul 2005 13:11:56 -0400, Bill Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:

  Hello Keith and all,

  I have a question regarding titration with KOH. When making your
  titration
  solution (1 g KOH/ L distilled water) is itn necesary to adjust for the
  percent
  of your KOH, i.e. 90.5%? I am making the adjustment for the basic 3.5
  grans NaOH
  to 5.4 grams KOH. However, I made no adjustments when making the
  titration
  solution.

  Any help is appreciated.

  Bill Clark

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Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?