[Biofuel] The Philippines, Negros, the NPA,, etc.

[Vin Lava]

Hi Keith,

>>I used to visit friends in Negros in the mid-80's
>>and saw how they were trying to cope with the
>>changed situation. It was so bad that the Maoist
>>New People's Army (NPA) were making inroads into
>>the Provincial Capital, Bacolod City. I had friends
>>who had sugar farms, and a couple of them were
>>involved in armed encounters with the NPA. We used
>>to go around Bacolod City packing .45's in a pickup
>>truck with 2 or 3 bodyguards armed with M-16's
>>sitting in the bed for backup. It was really tense
>>then.

>I also had to do that, but I wasn't quite sure just
>who it was that should be shot, probably not the NPA.

The NPA is the armed group of the Communist Party of
the Philippines (CPP), currently led by Jose Maria
Sison who is in the Netherlands now. The CPP is an
offshoot of the old Partido Komunista ng Pilipinas
(PKP) which they broke off from in the 60's in a
bitter and messy split. That's why I was tense
whenever I visited Negros then. :-)

My grandfather, Vicente Lava, Sr., studied in New York
University in the early 1900's, getting his Ph.D. in
Chemistry there. He also joined the Communist Party of
America. Upon his return to the Philippines, the PKP
was set up and he was one of the earliest Party
General Secretaries. During the Japanese Occupation in
WWII, their armed group, the HUKBALAHAP (Huks for
short) composed of peasants, workers, and
intellectuals, controlled large portions of the island
of Luzon and enforced a land reform program and the
big landlords of the time couldn't visit their
properties.

When the American Forces returned to the Philippines,
and the Cold War was already being hatched, the PKP
and the Huks were obviously a nuisance and a threat to
them. My Grandfather ran for Senator in 1946 and lost.
A brother of his, Jesus, ran for Congressman, won, and
was promptly unseated. The PKP was declared illegal
and they had to go underground. Vicente died in 1947
and his brothers Jesus and Jose remained with the
underground movement.

Jose was captured in 1950 in Manila and was
incarcerated until 1970. Jesus continued the struggle
until his capture in 1964. He was released in 1974
when the PKP and the Philippine Government concluded a
political settlement.

Jose Maria Sison was recruited into the PKP in the
early 60's at a time when the PKP was linking up with
the Indonesians and Chinese. My Father (Vicente, Jr.)
and his cousins were already involved in the movement
during this time. The CPP/NPA was formed, allegedly
with the assistance of Senator Benigno Aquino, the
late husband of President Corazon Cojuangco Aquino,
who belongs to one of the biggest landowning families
in the Philippines - the Cojuangcos. Aquino was
assassinated at the Manila International Airport upon
his return from years of exile in the US in August
1983.

The split and the political settlement passed on the
movement's leadership to the CPP/NPA by default.

It's been more than 30 years since the CPP/NPA started
and more than 70 years since the PKP was formed and we
are still a colony run by a small group of families
and their foreign partners. But PO just might change
this. :-)

>>I was there about 5 years ago and Negros is better
>>than it was in the 80's. They have diversified their
>>agriculture, and established more commercial and
>>manufacturing enterprises. I even know of one who
>>is a Fukuoka Farming advocate now.

>When I was investigating this in 1983 there were
>several local initiatives to get the haciendas to
>diversify, including some good organics projects
>that were having good results. Most of the hacienda
>owners were "farming by radio", staying in the
>cities and talking to the farm managers by radio,
>never going there for fear of facing the workers >and
the hungry, displaced locals - several owners >had had
their heads removed with a bolo by then. >Fertile
ground for the NPA, if not for sugar.

That's exactly how it was. The NPA could be said to
have been in control of the Negros countryside at the
time. Much like the Huks in Central Luzon 40 years
earlier. But then again, like their predecessors,
they've seen their influence wane a bit since then.

>>I can see them producing ethanol like they do in
>>Brazil when we can no longer afford to import fossil
>>fuels.

>They were producing quite a lot of ethanol in 1983  
>(and seriously polluting rivers in the doing). Not
>any more?

The island of Negros had (and I believe, still have)
the highest density of sugar mills in the country. I'd
say this was the major source of river pollution. The
government's ethanol program, while much hyped at the
time, never really got off the ground, and is now just
a footnote in our country's history. We're still
heavily dependent on imported petroleum. But with the
rising oil prices a sustainable way to produce ethanol
from sugar cane may well be economically viable at
some point. Same with biodiesel from coconuts. :-)

Regards.

Vin Lava
Manila, Philippines

P.S. Vicente, Sr. patented a proces

RE: [Biofuel] Adventures In Chicken Soup - episode II

[Keith Addison]

The 1 yr. old advice of Aleks has put things right.

Furthermore, the drying technique detailed at:
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/dryingwashedbiodiesel/


Caveat emptor - VERY flakey people there. Heating it to 110 deg C 
plus spraying it? Well, if you like! LOL! 45-50 deg C is quite 
adequate, if at all necessary. And the usual lousy colour of their 
product.


As for bubble-drying: "The disadvantage of bubble-drying is the same 
as with bubble-washing -- it oxidises the fuel, you could have 
polymerising problems unless you use it quickly. It certainly won't 
past the European EN 1421 standards requirements. We don't recommend 
bubble-drying for this reason. Our fuel is usually clear in a day or 
two anyway."

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html
Washing: Journey to Forever

Best wishes

Keith



really cleared up the washed bioD.  I understand that I need to
get a bit better at completing the reaction, however, these 2
techniques really helped.

Thanks Aleks and Mark.

-Joey

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Joey Hundert
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 6:41 PM
To: biofuel
Subject: [Biofuel] Adventures In Chicken Soup - episode II


If I had a large scale continuous process, I'd be a threat to Campbell's...

Well, I've done it again, and made chicken soup for the whole neighborhood,
unless I can bring the batch back.

As per the advice of Aleks, I added roughly 5% white vinegar to my wash
water, and turned the bubbles on @ 70degF.

(see: http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/41152/)

While this has removed a lot of the biodiesel from the wash water, there is
still a lot of water floating around in the biodiesel, and it has a very
cloudy look.

I'll run it all night, I suppose, then add more vinegar?  Crank the heat up?
Anyone?!


all the best,

Joey



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[Biofuel] Sustainable Food System for Sustainable Development

[Keith Addison]

The Institute of Science in Society

Science Society Sustainability
http://www.i-sis.org.uk

ISIS Press Release 28/07/05

Sustainable Food System for Sustainable Development

Mae-Wan Ho, Director, Sustainable World Global Initiative, PO Box 
32097 London NW1 0XR, UK www.i- sis.org.uk


Lecture for Sustainable World International Conference 14-15 July, 
House of Commons, Westminster, London.


The complete version with references and diagrams is posted on 
Independent Science Panel website 
http://www.indsp. 
org/pdf/SFSSSD.pdf


What's a sustainable food system?

That's a question for this conference to answer. But I'll show you 
what it is not. Here's a sobering estimate of the greenhouse gas 
emissions from eating in a European country, based on full life cycle 
accounting, from farm to plate to waste [1].


Greenhouse gas emissions from eating (France)

Agriculture direct emissions
Fertilizers (French fertilizer industry only, more than half 
imported.) Road transport goods (within France only, not counting 
export/import) Road transport people

Truck manufacture & diesel
Store heating (20% national total)
Electricity (nuclear energy in France, multiply by 5 elsewhere) Packaging
End of life of packaging (overall emissions of waste 4 Mt)

Total
National French emission
Share linked to food system



42.0 Mt C
0.8 Mt C
4.0 Mt C
1.0 Mt C
0.8 Mt C
0.4 Mt C
0.7 Mt C
1.5 Mt C
1.0 Mt C

52.0 Mt C
171.0 MtC
30.4%



The figure of 30.4 percent is clearly an underestimate, because it 
leaves out emissions from the fertilizers imported as well as 
pesticides, transport associated with import/export of food, energy 
spent storing and preparing food in homes; and emission from 
electricity is one-fifth of typical non-nuclear sources.


Our current food system is dominated by high agricultural inputs, 
including pumped irrigation water, and huge volumes of commodity 
export and import, much of it by air. Taking all those into account 
could easily increase the greenhouse gas emissions another 5 to 10 
percent of total. That gives a rough idea of how much scope there is 
for reducing greenhouse gas emissions (and energy use) by changing 
agricultural practices, cutting out agricultural inputs and 
unnecessary transport, storage and packaging through local production 
and consumption.


Sequestering C in soil provide food security and mitigate global warming

Carbon dioxide in our atmosphere has reached an all-time high of 379 
ppm (parts per million), giving a total of 807 Gt (109 tonnes) of 
carbon in the earth's atmosphere. This is still less than a third of 
the 2 500 Gt of carbon in the earth's soil, of which 1 550 Gt is 
organic carbon, and the rest inorganic carbon. The global soil 
organic carbon pool is almost three times the 560 Gt C estimated in 
all living organisms [2].


The earth has been losing soil organic carbon to the atmosphere since 
historic times, a process greatly accelerated within the past 50 
years, as agriculture intensifies, and forests are cut down to 
convert to agricultural land. Estimates for the historic losses of 
soil organic carbon range widely from 44 to 537 Gt, with the common 
range of 55 to 78 Gt. That is the amount we can theoretically put 
back from the atmosphere into the soil as organic carbon, if we get 
our agriculture and land use right.


There is significant potential for sequestering, or taking carbon 
from the air into the soil through a set of recommended management 
practices. On existing croplands (1.35 billion ha), maximise soil 
organic carbon and fertility through organic inputs, cover crops, 
conservation tillage and mixed farming; on rangelands and grasslands 
(3.7billion ha), prevent overgrazing, fires and loss of nutrients, on 
degraded and desertified land (1.1 billion ha), prevent water and 
wind erosion, harvest and conserve water and plant forests; and on 
irrigated land (0.275 billion ha), control salinity, use drip/sub- 
irrigation, provide drainage, enhance water efficiency and 
conservation.


In fact, R. Lal in Ohio State University said [2, p.1626], "Soil C 
sequestration is a strategy to achieve food security through 
improvement in soil quality”, and as a bonus, it offsets 0.4 to 1.2Gt 
C/year, or 5 to 15% of the global emissions of 7.9Gt C of greenhouse 
gas due to human activities each year. Ingrid Hartman will say more 
soil to-morrow.


Agroforestry for food security and C sequestration

Another way to cut emissions is to stop cutting down forests. 
Deforestation contributes 1.6 Gt C emissions or 20% of the annual 
global greenhouse gas emissions due to human activities [3]. More 
than 14 million hectares of forests are cleared every year, mostly in 
the tropics [4]. Brazil alone has lost 47.4 million hectares of its 
Amazonia forest since 1978 [5], mostly for raising cattle; and in 
recent years, for growing soya as cattle feed.


Tropical forests are the richest carbon stocks and most effective 
carbon 

Re: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[Michael Redler]

 
"Chupacabras, Wolpertingers and Jackalopes...oh my!"
 
- Dorothy
 
Mike[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



be very careful of the chupacabras!  ;)
 
-chris b. -Original Message-From: Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: 'Biofuel@sustainablelists.org ' Sent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:03:54 -0300Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell




We have foxes here but not all that many. There used to be pumas but I've never 
even heard one in my travels. There are snakes, some poisonous as well as wild 
pigs, hawks, eagles, and something bigger whose name escapes me now. I'll ask 
around about other preditors. Keep the information flowing I'm absorbing and 
saving to hard disk. 

Many thanks,

Tom Irwin___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] U.S., five Asian nations agree to push technology to fightclimate change

[capt3d]

not at all, doug.
 
in recent weeks there have been a few stories about australia's increased uranium commitments, and india's seeking of nuclear technology from the united states.  non-proliferation was seen as a potential snagging point for the latter, so this latest six-nation agreement puts the stamp of legitimacy on the whole dirty nuclear business.
 
-chris b. -Original Message-From: Doug Younker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 16:52:47 -0500Subject: Re: [Biofuel] U.S., five Asian nations agree to push technology to fightclimate change



- Original Message - 
From: "Alt.EnergyNetwork" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 3:02 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] U.S., five Asian nations agree to push technology to
fightclimate change


:
:
:
: Bush sees the light??


Not really, IMO. In the event GWB really had faith in technology's ability
to curb green house gases he would sign onto Kyoto or at least pledge the
USA will meet the Kyoto Protocol's goals, but  then who would believe him?.
Like his promotion of hydrogen this reads as a stall tactic to, give the
impression he is doing something when in, reality he does nothing.  No real
change is going to occur until the right people will profit.  But then
perhaps I'm getting too cynical...
Doug, N0LKK
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Justice and Liberty for all*
* Restrictions apply: see the PATRIOT act for details.


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Re: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[capt3d]

be very careful of the chupacabras!  ;)
 
-chris b. -Original Message-From: Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: 'Biofuel@sustainablelists.org ' Sent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 17:03:54 -0300Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell




We have foxes here but not all that many. There used to be pumas but I've never 
even heard one in my travels. There are snakes, some poisonous as well as wild 
pigs, hawks, eagles, and something bigger whose name escapes me now. I'll ask 
around about other preditors. Keep the information flowing I'm absorbing and 
saving to hard disk. 

Many thanks,

Tom Irwin
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Re: [Biofuel] The Saudi oil bombshell

[capt3d]

yes, the oil shales and the tar sands are very dirty sources of energy.  presumably, cleaner ways of extracting it will be found, but why bother with it in the first place when there are already much cleaner sources of energy, is my way of thinking.
 
you're right, there is increasing interest in the canadian deposits, though a lot of it seems to be going on semi-secretly (or very discretely, at least).  and as regards nafta, when the shale/tar sands extraction picks up steam, that's when canada will see nafta really rear it's ugly head, what with the chapter 7 provisions.
 
-chris -Original Message-From: robert luis rabello <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 08:43:35 -0700Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Saudi oil bombshell


Joe Street wrote: > Yes but this is difficult and expensive oil. The energy budget for its > production is not pretty. The facilities for sure do exist to process it > but I understand that production rates currently vary directly with the > market price of crude. Canada is sitting on the proverbial gold mine > and when the production shortfalls really hit in Saudi Arabia then and > only then will we see a serious and large scale effort to extract these > reserves as they will be profitable and the market will have little > choice but to bear the cost at that time. How will our neighbors treat > us then I wonder? > > J     One provision of NAFTA requires Canada to supply energy to the United States, even if that means shorting Canadian consumption. I had a client who designed the facilities that extract shale oil, and he told me that investment in this technology is booming right now. Demand for oil from shale is expected to increase tremendously in the near term.    I have heard many people complain that extracting oil from shale is a messy business, and I'm glad I don't live in Alberta!  robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice" Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>  Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/   ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org  Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/  
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Re: [Biofuel] Pressure release and return port jet

[Ray J]

is anyone measuring the pressure in your sealed reactors?
What kind of pressure are we talking about?...1psi? 5 psi ? 10psi?

I have herd their is some heat build up from the reaction but have not 
heard much about a big pressure buildup.


then again a little pressure probably isnt too bad... it keeps more 
methanol from evaporating well actually.. I think u need to run 
quite a bit of pressure for that...


most people are using water heaters for sealed reactors.. the largest 
port is 1or 3/4 inch isn't it?


and I think someone is a little confused..
 They all talk of having a sealed system to prevent personal harm and 
methanol loss but pressure must build with A, heating and

"B pumping air in to mix the solution.."

I dont think anyone is pumping air to mix the solution... in fact most 
the pumps people are using are very poor at pumping air...
most designs, pump the solution out of the bottom of the tank and push 
it up a pipe to the top of the tank then it flows back into the 
tank...and that flow does the mixing




  And now i have a question for the group.. ,,  I dont really know if 
its been brought up or not... I would think it has. but  has anyone 
seen what would happen if you would put some kind of jet type nozzle 
spraying into the tank on the return port.. so the solution is striking 
the opposite side of the tank or being "jetted" into the solution in the 
tank.. I would think that jetting "into" the solution might incorporate 
too much air and make foam or something but spraying it into the 
opposite side of the tank...? wonder what would happen?  would it 
help mixing?  I suppose a person would have to keep an eye on the 
pressure side of the pump and try to keep a happy medium with the flow 
rate and pressure... But I would bet the harbor freight pump would NOT 
be the number one choice for doing this




Ray J





Appal Energy wrote:


> How are the tanks vented?

Any tank holding any percentage of methanol should have a vapor line 
running to a central manifold prior to passing through a condensor. 
The greatest pressure build-up occurs during the first moments of 
reaction. Rather than a pressure relief valve that could easily fail, 
an adjustable  pressure "flap" can be constructed that opens at low 
pressure. If the vent lines are 2"-4", there's not much chance of the 
pressure building beyond a couple of pounds.


As for a sealed system? There are two options. Either size and 
construct all parts of the system that will be in the methanol loop 
(tanks, transfer lines, pumps vents, etc.) to withstand negative 
pressure, or simple make sure that any new feedstock and reactants 
that enter do so at a speed consistant with the condensor's capacity, 
allowing all exiting vapor to be stripped of methanol.


Sizing a condensor would be a less taxing exercise than constructin an 
entire system for negative pressure.Over size the condensor and the 
reactants can be fed faster. Under size it and they simply have to 
enter at a slower rate.


Todd Swearingen


Ian & Theresa Sims wrote:

I am new to the biofuel world and have read most of the webb site 
info but can't seem to find any reference
to pressure release. They all talk of having a sealed system to 
prevent personal harm and methanol loss but pressure must build with 
A, heating and B,

pumping air in to mix the solution. Question. How are the tanks vented?
Many thanks
Ian



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Re: [Biofuel] U.S., five Asian nations agree to push technology to fightclimate change

[Doug Younker]

- Original Message - 
From: "Alt.EnergyNetwork" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 3:02 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] U.S., five Asian nations agree to push technology to
fightclimate change


:
:
:
: Bush sees the light??


Not really, IMO. In the event GWB really had faith in technology's ability
to curb green house gases he would sign onto Kyoto or at least pledge the
USA will meet the Kyoto Protocol's goals, but  then who would believe him?.
Like his promotion of hydrogen this reads as a stall tactic to, give the
impression he is doing something when in, reality he does nothing.  No real
change is going to occur until the right people will profit.  But then
perhaps I'm getting too cynical...
Doug, N0LKK
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Justice and Liberty for all*
* Restrictions apply: see the PATRIOT act for details.


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RE: [Biofuel] Adventures In Chicken Soup - episode II

[Joey Hundert]

The 1 yr. old advice of Aleks has put things right.

Furthermore, the drying technique detailed at:
http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/dryingwashedbiodiesel/

really cleared up the washed bioD.  I understand that I need to
get a bit better at completing the reaction, however, these 2
techniques really helped.

Thanks Aleks and Mark.

-Joey

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Joey Hundert
Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 6:41 PM
To: biofuel
Subject: [Biofuel] Adventures In Chicken Soup - episode II


If I had a large scale continuous process, I'd be a threat to Campbell's...

Well, I've done it again, and made chicken soup for the whole neighborhood,
unless I can bring the batch back.

As per the advice of Aleks, I added roughly 5% white vinegar to my wash
water, and turned the bubbles on @ 70degF.

(see: http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/41152/)

While this has removed a lot of the biodiesel from the wash water, there is
still a lot of water floating around in the biodiesel, and it has a very
cloudy look.

I'll run it all night, I suppose, then add more vinegar?  Crank the heat up?
Anyone?!


all the best,

Joey


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Re[2]: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings Gustl,

We actually called our place: The Rose Colored Forest because we are a pair 
of dreamers.  While I had never farmed, I had survived survival training in 
the Canadian military.  I knew how to butcher, shoot and cook real food 
before we started.  I know we would be much richer and farther along if we 
had known what we wanted when we bought our land, we didn't.  I couldn't 
find a house I wanted, so I bought land where there were no building codes 
so I could build my own.  I didn't know about sustainable living until 
1998, when I had cancer and got on the Internet to prevent boredom.  I 
think being adaptable and being willing to think outside the box are key 
ingredients to surviving and most of all, a sense of humor.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 12:45 PM 7/28/2005, you wrote:

Hallo Kim,
Yes,   there  is  a  lot  of  failure  with  back-to-the-land'ers  and
particularly  because  they  are  ill  prepared  for  the hardship and
sacrifice  involved  in  getting  started.   They  expect things to be
easier  than  they  will  be,  things  to go smoothly, problems not to
arise or to be easily and quickly overcome.  But it can be done.  Just
leave the rose colored glasses back in the city and if things turn out
to  be  easier  than  you  thought be thankful for such favors.  It is
better to expect the worst and have an easier time of it than it is to
expect   gliding  through  and   finding  yourself  disillusioned  and
disheartened and giving up.




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RE: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[Tom Irwin]

Greetings Garth and Kim,

I anticipate a long learning curve but I have another job and so does my wife 
to support our family. I teach chemistry and environmental science so I have 
considerable time off. Historically that time off was for the farming community 
to plant and harvest so I'm reversing things a bit. I taking it slow and trying 
to learn as much as possible before I begin. Although the Amish and Mennonites 
have their direct community to help them it would seem that I am not without 
community here. I know its not the same as barnraising help but it is going to 
be vital to my ultimate success and I appreciate everyone's ideas and help. I 
also understand I will need to take my lumps because a lot of farming is 
experiential.

Don't get me wrong I'm not against cattle or sheep. It's just the market is 
somewhat saturated here and I'm a contrarian at heart. I'll probably raise a 
few just to eat. Uruguay is in the southern hemisphere so I probably want land 
facing north. I'll keep you advice about coop runs in mind. Many thanks. The 
weather is fairly mild. In a really severe winter we see three or four days of 
light frost. Uruguay is primarily a grassland much like Argentina. If my ideas 
on climate change are correct we'll get an additional 10-20 cm of rainfall. If 
I'm wrong we become more like the African savanna. I've plotted both scenarios 
but in the end there are huge amounts of untapped ground water here. There's a 
big sun on Uruguay's flag and with good reason. We get lots of sunny days. Most 
of our nasty thunderstorms come out of Antartica, south to north. No, 
earthquakes or hurricanes here and only a rare tornado but we do get droughts, 
floods and all day thunderstorms. My feel is the climate is like the Carolinas 
but  bit drier. As near as I can tell there is not much government interferece 
on the farm. It's a fairly poor country. I think the average wage is U$ 
6000/yr. They can't afford to regulate much. 

We have foxes here but not all that many. There used to be pumas but I've never 
even heard one in my travels. There are snakes, some poisonous as well as wild 
pigs, hawks, eagles, and something bigger whose name escapes me now. I'll ask 
around about other preditors. Keep the information flowing I'm absorbing and 
saving to hard disk. 

Many thanks,

Tom Irwin
 

-Original Message-
From: Garth & Kim Travis
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: 7/28/05 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

Greetings Tom,

I am glad to hear you have been studying.  The main reason I warned you 
about the size, is that I have half that much land and so far, I am
barely 
using half of what I have.  The learning curve is something else, 
regardless of how much studying we do.  Unless of course you come from 
farming people, which we don't.

Please make sure your mobile chicken coops are large enough for the 
chickens to actually run, not just walk around.  Many of us have made
the 
mistake of making them too small and as a result, within a few months,
our 
chickens start producing eggs with yellow yolks, not the deep orange of
a 
healthy chicken.  If predators are a problem, there is now an
electrified 
poultry netting on the market.

As for what to look for in the land.  Well the south facing side of a
hill 
is always the best choice for situating a home.  What is the worst
weather 
you get?  What directions does it come from?  Answer these two and you
have 
some idea of the lay of the land that you need for natural protection of

your animals from the weather.  Some high ground for the wet season,
some 
low ground for dry season is a good combination.  Good drainage is
always 
important.  If you can get a natural spring, you are very lucky.  Good 
water is important.  Another important point to keep in mind is always
how 
much government interference is there in that area?  If you have to
worry 
about building codes for barns and rabbit hutches, it is a pain.  As far
a 
soil is concerned, as long as you can avoid the extremes of real heavy
clay 
or total sand, you can make it work with not too much work.  If the land

feels spongy to walk on, great.  If it feels like concrete beneath your 
feet, there is a lot of work to do to make it fertile.  Buy the best you

can afford.  A smaller piece of good soil is worth more and far less
work 
that a large peice of poor depleted soil.

Good luck and let me know if I can help in any way.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 08:17 AM 7/28/2005, you wrote:
>Hello Garth and Kim Travis,
>
>I have been reading extensively in the small farm library. It is one of
my 
>motivations for doing this. I always thought it would be too difficult
or 
>expensive. Yes, I know how much 15 hectares is. (A little more than 37 
>acres or 150,000 sq meters) It is just most of the ranchers I know here

>have holdings greater than 1000 hectares. I used to live in Berks
County 
>Pennsylvania. There are many Amish and Mennonite farm

Re[2]: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[Gustl Steiner-Zehender]

Hallo Kim,

I  do not think we are in disagreement about this but just approaching
it  from differing angles. Fifteen hectare in Uraguay should be plenty
enough land for a team of horses, a cow, hog and some fowl as well. It
is  a  matter  of how one does things. In Bavaria they keep a team and
other  farm  animals on  much fewer than 15 hectare, or did since they
have mostly gone to power equipment now.

Back in the sixties there were several communal experiments and so far
as I know the only one which succeeded was the Farm down in Tennessee.
It was rough going in the beginning but they made it.  It helps having
a community even if it is a community of novices.

I  just  wanted  folks to know that yes, it can be done but it will be
tough.   It  is  not  for  the  faint  hearted or those not willing to
sacrifice  much for what may turn out to be what they consider little.

If a person is not country smart they need to get that way.  There are
an  entirely  different  set of circumstances down in Uruguay and much
missing from the picture the mail painted.  Climate, seasonal changes,
an  accurate  description  of what is considered "marginal" land, what
resources  are  available and a host of other things.  Without knowing
those  things  only general suggestions can be made and then depending
on the answers to those questions one may not know the answers anyhow.
Getting  to know your neighbors and how those you wish to emulate farm
is one of the best things he can do.

There  are  lots of options as concerns the offal disposal rather than
just  dumping the remains.  Nothing needs to be wasted at all.  One of
the  first  things  which comes to mind is bio-gas.  Every problem has
its solution. :o)

Yes,   there  is  a  lot  of  failure  with  back-to-the-land'ers  and
particularly  because  they  are  ill  prepared  for  the hardship and
sacrifice  involved  in  getting  started.   They  expect things to be
easier  than  they  will  be,  things  to go smoothly, problems not to
arise or to be easily and quickly overcome.  But it can be done.  Just
leave the rose colored glasses back in the city and if things turn out
to  be  easier  than  you  thought be thankful for such favors.  It is
better to expect the worst and have an easier time of it than it is to
expect   gliding  through  and   finding  yourself  disillusioned  and
disheartened and giving up.

Happy Happy,

Gustl

Thursday, 28 July, 2005, 10:57:15, you wrote:

GKT> Greetings Gustl,

GKT> I agree that a 15 hectare farm is not much for an experience farmer with 
GKT> knowledge, experience and a whole community behind them.  It is a very 
GKT> large piece of land for a couple, from the city, just learning to farm who 
GKT> don't have a community behind them.  I know, I have half of that amount 
and 
GKT> I know how difficult it is.

GKT> A pair of horses?  Well there is all of my farm gone feeding them.  Horses 
GKT> are for large farms or people with large wallets for the feed store.  Or, 
GKT> people with a community where they can borrow them.  The learning curve of 
GKT> learning to manage horses is a full time occupation for at least a year.

GKT> I am making the change over from city girl to country girl and I know it 
GKT> can be done.   The mistake I see most often is people buying too big a 
GKT> place, getting too much stock at once and not giving themselves a chance 
to 
GKT> learn.

GKT> Home butcher is the way to go, of course, but localities are putting in 
GKT> rules against it.  People putting offal in the garbage is a major health 
GKT> problem.  It is also pretty stupid if they keep a dog or cat, as it is the 
GKT> best food for them.

GKT> The simple life is about choices.  I totally agree with your assessment of 
GKT> living sustainably.  It is amazing what you can do for yourself and how 
GKT> much fun it is to figure out how to get what you really want.  Money makes 
GKT> life boring, beyond a certain point and for me, that is not much.

GKT> Bright Blessings,
GKT> Kim

-- 
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



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Re[2]: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[Gustl Steiner-Zehender]

Hallo Joe,

Thursday, 28 July, 2005, 10:08:23, you wrote:

JS> To  'apprentice'  with an Amish farmer may not only be impractical
JS> it  may  be  practically  impossible. I don't know the Amish but I
JS> live  in  the  heart  of Mennonite country which I believe is very
JS> similar.  Old  order  Mennonites farm without electricity, engines
JS> and  much  mechanization. New order Mennonites do allow the use of
JS> some  technology  but  still  live  close  to the land and keep to
JS> themselves.  One  such  farmer  a  few  km  from  my home has wind
JS> turbines  and  recently added a very large one similar to what you
JS> see  being  used  for feeding the grid. I wanted to visit his farm
JS> and  learn  about his odyssey of progressively larger turbines etc
JS> but  I  was  told that would not be possible. It is central to the
JS> beliefs  of  these  people  that  they should be humble and plain.
JS> Therefore  they  are  taught that it is sinful to brag or show off
JS> thier  accomplishments.  They  feel  that  touring someone through
JS> thier  farm  is  an  example of such pride and as a result you may
JS> find it difficult to do so.

There  are  considerable  differences  between  the various Anabaptist
sects.  The Old Order Mennonites are among if not the most strict.

"Apprenticing"  may  be  impossible  but  neighboring isn't.  They all
"neighbor".   I have yet to meet a plain person who would be unwilling
to  help  someone else with something if it was presented to them in a
manner which would not cause them to go against their beliefs.

If one is from another plain sect or a German speaker (as am I) things
go  much  more smoothly.  Being familiar with the customs and beliefs,
traditions  and practices of the one to whom you are speaking is a big
help.  Not being perceived as "Englisch" is also a great help.

It  can  boil down to not what you ask but how you ask it.  Getting to
know folks and their idiosyncracies first and learning how to speak to
folks can smooth over a lot of rough spots in the road.  :o)

Happy Happy,

Gustl
JS> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>> While not a practical idea for most, I suspect, it would be nice to be 
>> able to "apprentice" with some Amish farmers.
...snip...
--
Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns.

We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails.

The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, 
soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, 
without signposts.  
C. S. Lewis, "The Screwtape Letters"

Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, 
daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht 
gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden.

Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't
hear the music.  
George Carlin

The best portion of a good man's life -
His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love.
William Wordsworth



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Re: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[Greg and April]

I love Dexter's.

They are a great little triple purpose breed, and the fact they do better on
tough feed than on concentrates is fantastic.I plan to have several when
I get my land.


Greg H.


- Original Message -
From: "Garth & Kim Travis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 6:20
Subject: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell


> Greetings,
>
> First I would like to say good luck on your new venture.  Have you read
the
> entire small farms library at JTF?  It is a great place to start.
>
> Are you aware of just how much land 15 hectares is?  To farm that much
> land, you are going to need some serious equipment.  That is, if you plan
> on doing it sustainably.  You would be running thousands of chickens and
> hundreds of pigs in order to create enough manure to bring back depleted
> land.
>
> The real beauty of sustainable farming is how little land you need to
raise
> enough food for several families.  I do belive that the quoted figures are
> 1 hectare for a family of 6, and that includes income.
>
> Assuming that you understand the above, then I would suggest that you look
> into breeds.  Many of the old endangered breeds are best for sustainable
> farming.  For example: Tamworth pigs.  These are a smaller bacon pig, not
a
> lard pig.  They do not survive factory farming and being enclosed and are
> therefore endangered, but they are a fabulous pasture pig.  They live in
> the pasture, year round in  snowy areas and in the heat.  And they are no
> more expensive than good breeding stock of any other breed.  The trick is
> to know what the challenges of your area are and to pick stock that can
> thrive where you are.  Then, you don't have all the expensive medicines
and
> upkeep that factory farmers put up with.
>
> The other thing to look at is what is your feed going to?  While I know
> that you don't want to do cattle, they are the easiest explanation of what
> I mean.  When comparing live weight to dressed weight, if you can find
> animals that can hit 60% of the live weight in dressed weight, then your
> feed has been well used.  Dexter is an excellent example of this kind of
> cattle.  But if your dressed weight is only 40%, then your feed has gone
to
> growing something that is in the waste stream and this is not profitable.
>
> The most important thing, unfortunately is regulations.  How do you get to
> market with your animals?  What costs of processing do you have to
> pay?  What will the government let you do?
>
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
>
> At 06:53 AM 7/28/2005, you wrote:
> >Hi All,
> >
> >It looks like I've finally convinced the wife to make the investment in
> >some land and do some sustainable farming. I've been practicing in my
> >garden many years and would like to begin with pigs and chickens since
> >everyone else seems to be raising cattle and sheep. I live in Uruguay.
> >There are quite a few small holdings (7 to 25 heactares) available at
> >prices I can afford. I am doing vermiculture and have a fair
understanding
> >of soils but I've never raised animals other than pets. Do I purchase
good
> >land that's arable or marginal land and improve it with the pigs and
> >chickens? What sort of water flows, either underground or surface, will I
> >require? How many pigs and chickens can I raise sustainably on say 15
> >hectares. I want to be self sufficient or at least as much as possible. I
> >want to be low tech but profitable. Any suggestions out there would be
> >appreciated.
> >
> >Tom Irwin
> >
>
>
>
> ___
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>
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>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
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>
>


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RE: [Biofuel] Predictions as to crude oil prices, call for

[Paul S Cantrell]

Mike,
I believe that the decrease takes into account the growing LNG imports
into the US replacing some of the oil demand by 2010.  Many energy
experts believe this, but only a few LNG terminals have gained permits.

Whether LNG can/will offset oil demand in the US is anyone's guess IMO.  Was there any mention of LNG in the report?

I certainly think that the higher the PUMP price of diesel, the more interest in BD there will be.


   7. RE: Predictions as to crude oil prices, call for discussion
  (Mike Sutton)--Message: 7From: "Mike Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: RE: [Biofuel] Predictions as to crude oil prices, call for
discussionI have also been wondering about the price of oil and how that might affectthe biodiesel market.My gut feel has been that with China's continued growth, though at a slowerpace along with other country demands, it seems only logical that oil prices
would continue to rise.  But I wanted some concrete data I could base myopinion on and therefore have higher confidence.Last week I did a little research. According to Standard & Poors Oil & Gas
production & marketing report, completed in late May, based on projectionsdone in April,  their price predictions on West Texas Intermediate (WTI)average spot oil prices are:More than $50 per barrel in 2005
$48 in 2006$46 in 2007$39 in 2015$57 in 2025It is a 48 page report and contains considerable data, but it's hard toimagine oil prices going down to $39!?!I'm going to try to check the US department of energy information.
Mike

-- Thanks,PaulHe's the kind of a guy who lights up a room just by flicking a switch
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Re: [Biofuel] The Saudi oil bombshell

[bob allen]

 howdy curtis,

curtis schirrmacher wrote:

There is in fact a much larger reserve of oil in
canada than saudi arabia in the form of heavy oil.


that may be an energy reserve in the ground, but how much net energy is 
there after extraction?   As I understand it much of the energy in the 
reserve would have to be utilized to get what is left out of the ground.





Canada is also the largest exporter of oil to the u.s.
At current rate of consumption the oil in canada is
estimated to last about 500 years.


but calculations based on "current rate of consumption" are notoriously 
in error. Add even modest growth rates and the lifetime of the reserve 
drops rapidly.



 Saudi oil is not at

all the only or even the largest source of oil .


it is for the readily available sweet crude. One may have huge oil 
reserves, but if takes a barrel of oil to get a barrel of oil out of the 
ground there are zero energy reserves.




--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman

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[Biofuel] Oil Sands one of the world's biggest projects

[MH]

 http://www.truthout.org/issues_05/052405EC.shtml 

 "Yet Alberta's oil sands are destined to be the main supply of
 foreign oil to the United States for at least the next century.
 The sands hold proven reserves of 175 billion barrels,
 second only to Saudi Arabia's 262 billion, and far more than
 the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge's estimated 10 billion." 

 Fueling America: Canadian Oil Showdown 
 By Robert Collier 
 The San Francisco Chronicle 
 23 May 2005 
 Frozen pipeline: Tribe's success at blocking
 natural gas delivery system threatens
 development of oil-sands mines.

 Fueling America: China Moves Fast to Claim Oil Sands 
 By Robert Collier 
 The San Francisco Chronicle 
 22 May 2005 
 Although Chinese holdings in Alberta are still small,
 they are a foothold on the North American continent
 as the US rival seeks to develop energy sources
 worldwide to boost its rapidly growing economy.

 Fueling America: Oil's Dirty Future 
 By Robert Collier 
 The San Francisco Chronicle 
 22 May 2005 
 Canadian oil sands: Vast reserves second to
 Saudi Arabia will keep America moving,
 but at a steep environmental cost.

> Encyclopedia: Tar sands 
>   http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tar-sands 
> Encyclopedia: Oil shale 
>   http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Oil-shale

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Re: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[robert luis rabello]

Garth & Kim Travis wrote:


Greetings Gustl,

I agree that a 15 hectare farm is not much for an experience farmer with 
knowledge, experience and a whole community behind them.  It is a very 
large piece of land for a couple, from the city, just learning to farm 
who don't have a community behind them.  I know, I have half of that 
amount and I know how difficult it is.


	Learning how to grow things on a suburban lot involves time and 
patience, too!  My sweetheart and I were looking at a new development 
with a drop dead gorgeous view not far from where we live, but one of 
the very discouraging things about going there involves the soil.  My 
awareness of these things has increased tremendously because of my 
work in my current garden.  Reviving clay substrate with the 
consistency of concrete is more work than I really want to do right 
now, particularly because we're in the midst of harvesting more 
vegetables than we can eat!


	I think the point raised here that moving directly from city life to 
country life should be undertaken carefully is an excellent one.  I 
wouldn't have even LOOKED at the soil on the property we were 
examining had I visited there a few years ago, but now it's one of the 
first things I consider.  Experience inspires insight.


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] The Saudi oil bombshell

[robert luis rabello]

Joe Street wrote:
Yes but this is difficult and expensive oil. The energy budget for its 
production is not pretty. The facilities for sure do exist to process it 
but I understand that production rates currently vary directly with the 
market price of crude.  Canada is sitting on the proverbial gold mine 
and when the production shortfalls really hit in Saudi Arabia then and 
only then will we see a serious and large scale effort to extract these 
reserves as they will be profitable and the market will have little 
choice but to bear the cost at that time.  How will our neighbors treat 
us then I wonder?


J


	One provision of NAFTA requires Canada to supply energy to the United 
States, even if that means shorting Canadian consumption.  I had a 
client who designed the facilities that extract shale oil, and he told 
me that investment in this technology is booming right now.  Demand 
for oil from shale is expected to increase tremendously in the near term.


	I have heard many people complain that extracting oil from shale is a 
messy business, and I'm glad I don't live in Alberta!


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782>

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] The Saudi oil bombshell

[Joe Street]

Yes but this is difficult and expensive oil. The energy budget for its
production is not pretty. The facilities for sure do exist to process
it but I understand that production rates currently vary directly with
the market price of crude.  Canada is sitting on the proverbial gold
mine and when the production shortfalls really hit in Saudi Arabia then
and only then will we see a serious and large scale effort to extract
these reserves as they will be profitable and the market will have
little choice but to bear the cost at that time.  How will our
neighbors treat us then I wonder?

J


curtis schirrmacher wrote:

  There is in fact a much larger reserve of oil in
canada than saudi arabia in the form of heavy oil.
Canada is also the largest exporter of oil to the u.s.
At current rate of consumption the oil in canada is
estimated to last about 500 years. Saudi oil is not at
all the only or even the largest source of oil .
--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  
  http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GF29Ak01.html
  
  
Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran
current affairs
Middle East

 Jun 29, 2005

The Saudi oil bombshell
By Michael T Klare

For those oil enthusiasts who believe that petroleum
will remain 
abundant for decades to come - among them President
George W Bush and 
Vice President Dick Cheney, and their many friends
in the oil 
industry - any talk of an imminent "peak" in global
oil production 
and an ensuing decline can be easily countered with
a simple mantra: 
"Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia."

Not only will the Saudis pump extra oil now to
alleviate global 
shortages, it is claimed, but they will keep pumping
more in the 
years ahead to quench our insatiable thirst for
energy. And when the 
kingdom's existing fields run dry, lo, they will
begin pumping from 
other fields that are just waiting to be exploited.
We ordinary folk 
need have no worries about oil scarcity, because
Saudi Arabia can 
satisfy our current and future needs. This is, in
fact, the basis for 
the Bush administration's contention that we can
continue to increase 
our yearly consumption of oil, rather than conserve
what's left and 
begin the transition to a post-petroleum economy.
Hallelujah for 
Saudi Arabia!

But now, from an unexpected source, comes a
devastating challenge to 
this powerful dogma: in a newly released book,
investment banker 
Matthew R Simmons convincingly demonstrates that,
far from being 
capable of increasing its output,
 Saudi Arabia is about to face the exhaustion of its
giant fields 
and, in the relatively near future, will probably
experience a sharp 
decline in output. "There is only a small
probability that Saudi 
Arabia will ever deliver the quantities of petroleum
that are 
assigned to it in all the major forecasts of world
oil production and 
consumption," Simmons writes in Twilight in the
Desert: The Coming 
Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy. "Saudi
Arabian production," he 
adds, italicizing his claims to drive home his
point, "is at or very 
near its peak sustainable volume ... and it is
likely to go into 
decline in the very foreseeable future."

If only ...

By Tom Engelhardt 

The price of a barrel of crude oil has broken the
$60 mark; a Chinese 
state-controlled oil company has made an $18.5
billion bid for 
American oil firm Unocal - the company that fought
to put a projected 
$1.9 billion natural gas pipeline through Taliban
Afghanistan and 
hired as its consultant Zalmay Khalilzad, the
outgoing Afghan 
ambassador and soon to be envoy to Iraq; world
energy consumption, 
according to last week's British Financial Times,
surged 4.3% last 
year (the biggest rise since 1984), oil use by 3.4%
(the biggest rise 
since 1978).

In the meantime, Exxon - which just had the
impudence to hire Philip 
Cooney after he was accused of doctoring government
reports on 
climate change and resigned as chief of staff of the
White House 
Council on Environmental Quality ("The cynical way
to look at this," 
commented Kert Davies, US research director for
Greenpeace, "is that 
ExxonMobil has removed its sleeper cell from the
White House and 
extracted him back to the mother ship.") - has
quietly issued a 
report, The Outlook for Energy: A 2030 View,
predicting that the 
moment of "peak oil" is only a five-year
hop-skip-and-a-pump away; 
"Oil Shockwave," a "war game" recently conducted by
top ex-government 
officials in Washington, including two former
directors of the 
Central Intelligence Agency, found the US "all but
powerless to 
protect the American economy in the face of a
catastrophic disruption 
of oil markets", which was all too easy for them to
imagine ("The 
participants concluded almost unanimously they must
press the 
president to invest quickly in promising
technologies to reduce 
dependence on overseas oil ..."); and oil tycoon
Boone Pickens, 
chairman of the billion-dollar hedge fund BP Capital
Management, is 
having the time of his life. 

Over t

Re: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings Gustl,

I agree that a 15 hectare farm is not much for an experience farmer with 
knowledge, experience and a whole community behind them.  It is a very 
large piece of land for a couple, from the city, just learning to farm who 
don't have a community behind them.  I know, I have half of that amount and 
I know how difficult it is.


A pair of horses?  Well there is all of my farm gone feeding them.  Horses 
are for large farms or people with large wallets for the feed store.  Or, 
people with a community where they can borrow them.  The learning curve of 
learning to manage horses is a full time occupation for at least a year.


I am making the change over from city girl to country girl and I know it 
can be done.   The mistake I see most often is people buying too big a 
place, getting too much stock at once and not giving themselves a chance to 
learn.


Home butcher is the way to go, of course, but localities are putting in 
rules against it.  People putting offal in the garbage is a major health 
problem.  It is also pretty stupid if they keep a dog or cat, as it is the 
best food for them.


The simple life is about choices.  I totally agree with your assessment of 
living sustainably.  It is amazing what you can do for yourself and how 
much fun it is to figure out how to get what you really want.  Money makes 
life boring, beyond a certain point and for me, that is not much.


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 08:20 AM 7/28/2005, you wrote:

Hallo Kim,

Thursday, 28 July, 2005, 08:20:54, you wrote:

GKT> Greetings,

GKT> First I would like to say good luck on your new venture. Have you
GKT> read  the  entire small farms library at JTF? It is a great place
GKT> to start.

GKT> Are  you aware of just how much land 15 hectares is? To farm that
GKT> much land, you are going to need some serious equipment. That is,
GKT> if  you  plan  on  doing  it  sustainably.  You  would be running
GKT> thousands  of  chickens  and  hundreds of pigs in order to create
GKT> enough manure to bring back depleted land.

Fifteen  hectares  is  less  than 40 acres of land. Serious equipment?
Depends  on  how "serious" is defined. The Amish in our area have done
wonders  with  marginal  land although it has taken them time to bring
the  land  back into full production and perhaps more importantly they
have  a  community  to  rely  on  until  the  farms  do  become  fully
productive.  It  must  be kept in mind also that the Amish do not farm
with  the  aim  of making a profit they farm with the aim of providing
for  their family, but they do make a small profit. Back in the 80's I
was  talking  with  an Amish friend with 8 kids. He made almost $3,000
profit  that year. But, he raised most of his own food including meat,
milk,  eggs,  veggies  and raised all of the feed for his animals. The
three grand was used to buy what he couldn't produce himself including
cloth  and  thread  to  make clothing. Also, they are diverse in their
planting  and  their  livestock  as well. Monoculture is not what they
practice.   Another   thing  which  needs  defining  is  "profit"  and
"sustainable".  We  may  differ  in our definitions and believe we are
speaking  of the same thing. Three grand would not be "profit" to some
while it is an abundance to others.

For starters, one person with a team of decent horses can handle 60-80
acres. A team of horses produces manure. One cow will produce milk and
calves  and  at  least  40  pounds  of manure daily. Crop rotation and
planting  for  soil,  water and weed conditions is a must. Make use of
your  county  agent  (if they have ag agents in Uruguay) and check out
the Small Farmer's Journal. What you are talking about is possible but
you  don't  want  to  walk into it blindly or with unreal expectations
like the hippies did in the 60's. It will be hard work for short bucks
and  a  lot  of  sacrifice and making do. You have to learn to do more
with  less.  If  you go into it looking only to survive you should, if
you are smart, learn how to live. Do remember though, the Amish have a
community  on  which  to  rely and you will be on your own. If I sound
discouraging  then good, because unless you have the will and are well
prepared  you  will  fail.  I  have  seen  many  people  who  love the
"lifestyle"  of  plain  people  falter  and  fail because they are not
willing  to  sacrifice  what  they consider their simple pleasures and
conveniences and are hardly prepared for the work involved.

GKT> The  real  beauty  of  sustainable farming is how little land you
GKT> need  to raise enough food for several families. I do belive that
GKT> the  quoted  figures  are  1  hectare for a family of 6, and that
GKT> includes income.

Yes, this is one kind of sustainable, I certainly agree.

GKT> Assuming that you understand the above, then I would suggest that
GKT> you  look into breeds. Many of the old endangered breeds are best
GKT> for  sustainable farming. For example: Tamworth pigs. These are a
GKT> s

RE: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings Tom,

I am glad to hear you have been studying.  The main reason I warned you 
about the size, is that I have half that much land and so far, I am barely 
using half of what I have.  The learning curve is something else, 
regardless of how much studying we do.  Unless of course you come from 
farming people, which we don't.


Please make sure your mobile chicken coops are large enough for the 
chickens to actually run, not just walk around.  Many of us have made the 
mistake of making them too small and as a result, within a few months, our 
chickens start producing eggs with yellow yolks, not the deep orange of a 
healthy chicken.  If predators are a problem, there is now an electrified 
poultry netting on the market.


As for what to look for in the land.  Well the south facing side of a hill 
is always the best choice for situating a home.  What is the worst weather 
you get?  What directions does it come from?  Answer these two and you have 
some idea of the lay of the land that you need for natural protection of 
your animals from the weather.  Some high ground for the wet season, some 
low ground for dry season is a good combination.  Good drainage is always 
important.  If you can get a natural spring, you are very lucky.  Good 
water is important.  Another important point to keep in mind is always how 
much government interference is there in that area?  If you have to worry 
about building codes for barns and rabbit hutches, it is a pain.  As far a 
soil is concerned, as long as you can avoid the extremes of real heavy clay 
or total sand, you can make it work with not too much work.  If the land 
feels spongy to walk on, great.  If it feels like concrete beneath your 
feet, there is a lot of work to do to make it fertile.  Buy the best you 
can afford.  A smaller piece of good soil is worth more and far less work 
that a large peice of poor depleted soil.


Good luck and let me know if I can help in any way.

Bright Blessings,
Kim
At 08:17 AM 7/28/2005, you wrote:

Hello Garth and Kim Travis,

I have been reading extensively in the small farm library. It is one of my 
motivations for doing this. I always thought it would be too difficult or 
expensive. Yes, I know how much 15 hectares is. (A little more than 37 
acres or 150,000 sq meters) It is just most of the ranchers I know here 
have holdings greater than 1000 hectares. I used to live in Berks County 
Pennsylvania. There are many Amish and Mennonite farmers working the land 
sustainably there. They usually try to start a son off with 15 hectares so 
that is where I thught I would begin. I've been reading up on pasture pig 
production and mobile chicken coops. What I don't find information on is 
the basics. What should I be looking for as a farmer on a piece of land? 
Water, soil, slope, etc. I'm not planning on utilizing all 15 heactares 
immediately. My idea is to grow into it. I was thinking of planting 
walnut, pecan, almond, apple, and oranges initially. Thanks for the info 
on the tamworth pigs. I love good bacon.


Tom Irwin


-Original Message-
From: Garth & Kim Travis
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: 7/28/05 9:20 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

Greetings,

First I would like to say good luck on your new venture.  Have you read
the
entire small farms library at JTF?  It is a great place to start.

Are you aware of just how much land 15 hectares is?  To farm that much
land, you are going to need some serious equipment.  That is, if you
plan
on doing it sustainably.  You would be running thousands of chickens and

hundreds of pigs in order to create enough manure to bring back depleted

land.

The real beauty of sustainable farming is how little land you need to
raise
enough food for several families.  I do belive that the quoted figures
are
1 hectare for a family of 6, and that includes income.

Assuming that you understand the above, then I would suggest that you
look
into breeds.  Many of the old endangered breeds are best for sustainable

farming.  For example: Tamworth pigs.  These are a smaller bacon pig,
not a
lard pig.  They do not survive factory farming and being enclosed and
are
therefore endangered, but they are a fabulous pasture pig.  They live in

the pasture, year round in  snowy areas and in the heat.  And they are
no
more expensive than good breeding stock of any other breed.  The trick
is
to know what the challenges of your area are and to pick stock that can
thrive where you are.  Then, you don't have all the expensive medicines
and
upkeep that factory farmers put up with.

The other thing to look at is what is your feed going to?  While I know
that you don't want to do cattle, they are the easiest explanation of
what
I mean.  When comparing live weight to dressed weight, if you can find
animals that can hit 60% of the live weight in dressed weight, then your

feed has been well used.  Dexter is an excellent example of this kind of

cattle.  But if your 

Re: [Biofuel] The Saudi oil bombshell

[curtis schirrmacher]

There is in fact a much larger reserve of oil in
canada than saudi arabia in the form of heavy oil.
Canada is also the largest exporter of oil to the u.s.
At current rate of consumption the oil in canada is
estimated to last about 500 years. Saudi oil is not at
all the only or even the largest source of oil .
--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GF29Ak01.html
> Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran
> current affairs
> Middle East
> 
>  Jun 29, 2005
> 
> The Saudi oil bombshell
> By Michael T Klare
> 
> For those oil enthusiasts who believe that petroleum
> will remain 
> abundant for decades to come - among them President
> George W Bush and 
> Vice President Dick Cheney, and their many friends
> in the oil 
> industry - any talk of an imminent "peak" in global
> oil production 
> and an ensuing decline can be easily countered with
> a simple mantra: 
> "Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia."
> 
> Not only will the Saudis pump extra oil now to
> alleviate global 
> shortages, it is claimed, but they will keep pumping
> more in the 
> years ahead to quench our insatiable thirst for
> energy. And when the 
> kingdom's existing fields run dry, lo, they will
> begin pumping from 
> other fields that are just waiting to be exploited.
> We ordinary folk 
> need have no worries about oil scarcity, because
> Saudi Arabia can 
> satisfy our current and future needs. This is, in
> fact, the basis for 
> the Bush administration's contention that we can
> continue to increase 
> our yearly consumption of oil, rather than conserve
> what's left and 
> begin the transition to a post-petroleum economy.
> Hallelujah for 
> Saudi Arabia!
> 
> But now, from an unexpected source, comes a
> devastating challenge to 
> this powerful dogma: in a newly released book,
> investment banker 
> Matthew R Simmons convincingly demonstrates that,
> far from being 
> capable of increasing its output,
>  Saudi Arabia is about to face the exhaustion of its
> giant fields 
> and, in the relatively near future, will probably
> experience a sharp 
> decline in output. "There is only a small
> probability that Saudi 
> Arabia will ever deliver the quantities of petroleum
> that are 
> assigned to it in all the major forecasts of world
> oil production and 
> consumption," Simmons writes in Twilight in the
> Desert: The Coming 
> Saudi Oil Shock and the World Economy. "Saudi
> Arabian production," he 
> adds, italicizing his claims to drive home his
> point, "is at or very 
> near its peak sustainable volume ... and it is
> likely to go into 
> decline in the very foreseeable future."
> 
> If only ...
> 
> By Tom Engelhardt 
> 
> The price of a barrel of crude oil has broken the
> $60 mark; a Chinese 
> state-controlled oil company has made an $18.5
> billion bid for 
> American oil firm Unocal - the company that fought
> to put a projected 
> $1.9 billion natural gas pipeline through Taliban
> Afghanistan and 
> hired as its consultant Zalmay Khalilzad, the
> outgoing Afghan 
> ambassador and soon to be envoy to Iraq; world
> energy consumption, 
> according to last week's British Financial Times,
> surged 4.3% last 
> year (the biggest rise since 1984), oil use by 3.4%
> (the biggest rise 
> since 1978).
> 
> In the meantime, Exxon - which just had the
> impudence to hire Philip 
> Cooney after he was accused of doctoring government
> reports on 
> climate change and resigned as chief of staff of the
> White House 
> Council on Environmental Quality ("The cynical way
> to look at this," 
> commented Kert Davies, US research director for
> Greenpeace, "is that 
> ExxonMobil has removed its sleeper cell from the
> White House and 
> extracted him back to the mother ship.") - has
> quietly issued a 
> report, The Outlook for Energy: A 2030 View,
> predicting that the 
> moment of "peak oil" is only a five-year
> hop-skip-and-a-pump away; 
> "Oil Shockwave," a "war game" recently conducted by
> top ex-government 
> officials in Washington, including two former
> directors of the 
> Central Intelligence Agency, found the US "all but
> powerless to 
> protect the American economy in the face of a
> catastrophic disruption 
> of oil markets", which was all too easy for them to
> imagine ("The 
> participants concluded almost unanimously they must
> press the 
> president to invest quickly in promising
> technologies to reduce 
> dependence on overseas oil ..."); and oil tycoon
> Boone Pickens, 
> chairman of the billion-dollar hedge fund BP Capital
> Management, is 
> having the time of his life. 
> 
> Over the past five years, he claims, his bet that
> oil prices would 
> rise has "made him more money ... than he earned in
> the preceding 
> half century hunting for riches in petroleum
> deposits and companies", 
> and he is predicting that prices will only go higher
> with much more 
> "pain at the pump". Ah, the good life. And if you
> don't quite 
> recognize the new look o

Re: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[Joe Street]

To 'apprentice' with an Amish farmer may not only be impractical it may
be practically impossible.  I don't know the Amish but I live in the
heart of Mennonite country which I believe is very similar.  Old order
Mennonites farm without electricity, engines and much mechanization. 
New order Mennonites do allow the use of some technology but still live
close to the land and keep to themselves.  One such farmer a few km
from my home has wind turbines and recently added a very large one
similar to what you see being used for feeding the grid.  I wanted to
visit his farm and learn about his odyssey of progressively larger
turbines etc but I was told that would not be possible.  It is central
to the beliefs of these people that they should be humble and plain. 
Therefore they are taught that it is sinful to brag or show off thier
accomplishments.  They feel that touring someone through thier farm is
an example of such pride and as a result you may find it difficult to
do so.

Joe

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
  While not a practical idea for most, I suspect, it would be nice
to be able to "apprentice" with some Amish farmers.  Some of the
intensive, largely sustainable, farming practices that were relatively
commonplace knowledge even as recent as 50 years ago in the US are now
a totally unknown concept to most of us here.  My father's parents,
Pennsylvania Germans but not Amish, grew and raised most of their
annual food needs on a plot of land that was less than 1/4 acre.  They
had chickens for meat and eggs, a hog or so (one slaughtered each year)
and a large variety of fruits and vegetables, including potatoes, that
were either eaten fresh or canned at home.  To them, it was second
nature.  While I enjoyed the "fruits" of their plot as a child, I would
be utterly clueless how to start now.   I do know how to get to Safeway
a mile down the road and know the aisles so well that I can almost shop
blindfolded!  Ah, the skills of modern urban life.
   
  Bob
  
  

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RE: [Biofuel] Predictions as to crude oil prices, call for discussion

[Hakan Falk]

US used 25.3 million of tons more oil 2004 than they used 2003 and their 
total use was 937.6 million tons 2004 or 24.9% of the worlds total use.

This used by a quarter of China population.

China used 42.2 million of tons more oil 2004 than they used 2003 and their 
total use was 308.6 million tons 2004 or 8.2% of the worlds total use.


Energy is the single largest component for describing the possibilities of 
a country's development. Per capita, the average American uses 12 times 
more oil than the Chinese. The difference in use by the average American 
between 2003 and 2004 (growth) were 2.4 times more than the difference in 
use of average Chinese.


If we took a "democratic" look at the oil use in the world and divided it 
in allotments based on population, US is using 5 times more than their 
allotment would be and China is using around a third of theirs.


As you can see, the Americans have much larger influence on the oil prices 
and possibilities to affect it. Only the fact that Americans insist on 
continue to drive SUVs, have a far larger impact on oil prices, than 
anything that the Chinese are doing. This because the Chinese demand is 
rooted in very modest rise in average living standard and the American is 
rooted in large luxury waste. The latter is far more easy to do something 
about and control.


Yes, the oil is based on demands and rise of them, but it is not fair to 
solely blame the Chinese situation.


Hakan


At 12:54 PM 7/28/2005, you wrote:

I have also been wondering about the price of oil and how that might affect
the biodiesel market.

My gut feel has been that with China's continued growth, though at a slower
pace along with other country demands, it seems only logical that oil prices
would continue to rise.  But I wanted some concrete data I could base my
opinion on and therefore have higher confidence.

Last week I did a little research. According to Standard & Poors Oil & Gas
production & marketing report, completed in late May, based on projections
done in April,  their price predictions on West Texas Intermediate (WTI)
average spot oil prices are:
More than $50 per barrel in 2005
$48 in 2006
$46 in 2007
$39 in 2015
$57 in 2025

It is a 48 page report and contains considerable data, but it's hard to
imagine oil prices going down to $39!?!

I'm going to try to check the US department of energy information.

Mike


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 8:11 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Predictions as to crude oil prices, call for
discussion



To those that say that I am overly optimistic, I like want to mention that
it does not take much to be smarter than us and the only ones who will have
that opportunity are our grandchildren.

Hakan


At 01:38 AM 7/28/2005, you wrote:

>Unfortunately it is too late for the only genetic engineering that would
>have produced significant improvements of todays situation. It will also
>need several significant break through to be able to do such genetic
>engineering. We are stuck with Bush, Blair and the rest of the current set
>of world leaders and the voters who elected them. -:((
>
>It is no hope for our generations, so let us hope that our grandchildren
>and this planet can survive despite us.
>
>Hakan
>
>At 01:21 AM 7/28/2005, you wrote:
>>Ron wrote:
>>
>> > Yet I'm not seeing nearly the traffic on this list as I'd expect
>> > on serious efforts to gear up mass biodiesel production:
>> >A- Better crop choices, including breeding or genetically engineering
>> > for such
>>
>>So you think that genetic engineering is "better?" As for better crop
>>choices, perhaps you might care to take note of the soybean council's
>>(NBB's) position against imported palm oil methyl esters. The question
>>has nothing to do with sound crop choices. It has nothing to do with the
>>environment. It has everything to do with the economics of special
>>interests. Put soy in its proper place as a low oil producer and you end
>>up with a soybean oil glut due to the vast production of soy to feed the
>>enormous livestock industry. If you want an answer, "Follow the money."
>>
>> > B- Better production processes, both in terms of efficiency and safety
>>
>>No particular production process is necessarily better than any other,
>>unless you take into account start-up costs of continual processing.
>>Batch plants are the most economical answer. They also meet the demands
>>of distribution, as the fuel should be produced where the feedstock
>>exists, not at some central production facility after having been
>>transported 150 miles, only to have the fuel transported right back to
>>where the oil came from.
>>
>>And what is it that you think production methods are unsafe? Commercial
>>plants adhere to fire, health and safety code.
>>
>> > C- Better _mass_ production processes, ditto
>>
>>Mass production is not the answer. In fact, it's more ener

Re: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[RobertCVA]

While not a practical idea for most, I suspect, it would be nice to be able 
to "apprentice" with some Amish farmers.  Some of the intensive, 
largely sustainable, farming practices that were relatively commonplace 
knowledge even as recent as 50 years ago in the US are now a 
totally unknown concept to most of us here.  My father's parents, 
Pennsylvania Germans but not Amish, grew and raised most of their annual food 
needs on a plot of land that was less than 1/4 acre.  They had chickens for 
meat and eggs, a hog or so (one slaughtered each year) and a large variety of 
fruits and vegetables, including potatoes, that were either eaten fresh or 
canned at home.  To them, it was second nature.  While I enjoyed the 
"fruits" of their plot as a child, I would be utterly clueless how to start 
now.   I do know how to get to Safeway a mile down the road and know 
the aisles so well that I can almost shop blindfolded!  Ah, the skills of 
modern urban life.
 
Bob
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Re: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[Gustl Steiner-Zehender]

Hallo Kim,

Thursday, 28 July, 2005, 08:20:54, you wrote:

GKT> Greetings,

GKT> First I would like to say good luck on your new venture. Have you
GKT> read  the  entire small farms library at JTF? It is a great place
GKT> to start.

GKT> Are  you aware of just how much land 15 hectares is? To farm that
GKT> much land, you are going to need some serious equipment. That is,
GKT> if  you  plan  on  doing  it  sustainably.  You  would be running
GKT> thousands  of  chickens  and  hundreds of pigs in order to create
GKT> enough manure to bring back depleted land.

Fifteen  hectares  is  less  than 40 acres of land. Serious equipment?
Depends  on  how "serious" is defined. The Amish in our area have done
wonders  with  marginal  land although it has taken them time to bring
the  land  back into full production and perhaps more importantly they
have  a  community  to  rely  on  until  the  farms  do  become  fully
productive.  It  must  be kept in mind also that the Amish do not farm
with  the  aim  of making a profit they farm with the aim of providing
for  their family, but they do make a small profit. Back in the 80's I
was  talking  with  an Amish friend with 8 kids. He made almost $3,000
profit  that year. But, he raised most of his own food including meat,
milk,  eggs,  veggies  and raised all of the feed for his animals. The
three grand was used to buy what he couldn't produce himself including
cloth  and  thread  to  make clothing. Also, they are diverse in their
planting  and  their  livestock  as well. Monoculture is not what they
practice.   Another   thing  which  needs  defining  is  "profit"  and
"sustainable".  We  may  differ  in our definitions and believe we are
speaking  of the same thing. Three grand would not be "profit" to some
while it is an abundance to others.

For starters, one person with a team of decent horses can handle 60-80
acres. A team of horses produces manure. One cow will produce milk and
calves  and  at  least  40  pounds  of manure daily. Crop rotation and
planting  for  soil,  water and weed conditions is a must. Make use of
your  county  agent  (if they have ag agents in Uruguay) and check out
the Small Farmer's Journal. What you are talking about is possible but
you  don't  want  to  walk into it blindly or with unreal expectations
like the hippies did in the 60's. It will be hard work for short bucks
and  a  lot  of  sacrifice and making do. You have to learn to do more
with  less.  If  you go into it looking only to survive you should, if
you are smart, learn how to live. Do remember though, the Amish have a
community  on  which  to  rely and you will be on your own. If I sound
discouraging  then good, because unless you have the will and are well
prepared  you  will  fail.  I  have  seen  many  people  who  love the
"lifestyle"  of  plain  people  falter  and  fail because they are not
willing  to  sacrifice  what  they consider their simple pleasures and
conveniences and are hardly prepared for the work involved.

GKT> The  real  beauty  of  sustainable farming is how little land you
GKT> need  to raise enough food for several families. I do belive that
GKT> the  quoted  figures  are  1  hectare for a family of 6, and that
GKT> includes income.

Yes, this is one kind of sustainable, I certainly agree.

GKT> Assuming that you understand the above, then I would suggest that
GKT> you  look into breeds. Many of the old endangered breeds are best
GKT> for  sustainable farming. For example: Tamworth pigs. These are a
GKT> smaller  bacon  pig,  not a lard pig. They do not survive factory
GKT> farming and being enclosed and are therefore endangered, but they
GKT> are  a fabulous pasture pig. They live in the pasture, year round
GKT> in  snowy  areas  and in the heat. And they are no more expensive
GKT> than good breeding stock of any other breed. The trick is to know
GKT> what  the  challenges of your area are and to pick stock that can
GKT> thrive  where  you  are.  Then,  you don't have all the expensive
GKT> medicines and upkeep that factory farmers put up with.

The Tamworth is a great hog.  Very friendly and also disease resistant
and  hardy.   As  for  prices it depends on where you buy.  If you buy
feeders  from  a farmer you will get normal feeder prices.  If you buy
feeders from a rare/minor breed conservancy type you will get screwed.
I  bought  registered  Tamworth feeders from a farmer for $50 each and
the next closest price was $350 from the conservancy people.

GKT> The other thing to look at is what is your feed going to? While I
GKT> know  that  you  don't  want  to  do cattle, they are the easiest
GKT> explanation of what I mean. When comparing live weight to dressed
GKT> weight,  if  you  can  find  animals that can hit 60% of the live
GKT> weight  in  dressed  weight,  then  your feed has been well used.
GKT> Dexter  is  an  excellent  example of this kind of cattle. But if
GKT> your  dressed  weight  is  only  40%,  then your feed has gone to
GKT> growing

RE: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[Tom Irwin]

Hello Garth and Kim Travis,

I have been reading extensively in the small farm library. It is one of my 
motivations for doing this. I always thought it would be too difficult or 
expensive. Yes, I know how much 15 hectares is. (A little more than 37 acres or 
150,000 sq meters) It is just most of the ranchers I know here have holdings 
greater than 1000 hectares. I used to live in Berks County Pennsylvania. There 
are many Amish and Mennonite farmers working the land sustainably there. They 
usually try to start a son off with 15 hectares so that is where I thught I 
would begin. I've been reading up on pasture pig production and mobile chicken 
coops. What I don't find information on is the basics. What should I be looking 
for as a farmer on a piece of land? Water, soil, slope, etc. I'm not planning 
on utilizing all 15 heactares immediately. My idea is to grow into it. I was 
thinking of planting walnut, pecan, almond, apple, and oranges initially. 
Thanks for the info on the tamworth pigs. I love good bacon.

Tom Irwin


-Original Message-
From: Garth & Kim Travis
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: 7/28/05 9:20 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

Greetings,

First I would like to say good luck on your new venture.  Have you read
the 
entire small farms library at JTF?  It is a great place to start.

Are you aware of just how much land 15 hectares is?  To farm that much 
land, you are going to need some serious equipment.  That is, if you
plan 
on doing it sustainably.  You would be running thousands of chickens and

hundreds of pigs in order to create enough manure to bring back depleted

land.

The real beauty of sustainable farming is how little land you need to
raise 
enough food for several families.  I do belive that the quoted figures
are 
1 hectare for a family of 6, and that includes income.

Assuming that you understand the above, then I would suggest that you
look 
into breeds.  Many of the old endangered breeds are best for sustainable

farming.  For example: Tamworth pigs.  These are a smaller bacon pig,
not a 
lard pig.  They do not survive factory farming and being enclosed and
are 
therefore endangered, but they are a fabulous pasture pig.  They live in

the pasture, year round in  snowy areas and in the heat.  And they are
no 
more expensive than good breeding stock of any other breed.  The trick
is 
to know what the challenges of your area are and to pick stock that can 
thrive where you are.  Then, you don't have all the expensive medicines
and 
upkeep that factory farmers put up with.

The other thing to look at is what is your feed going to?  While I know 
that you don't want to do cattle, they are the easiest explanation of
what 
I mean.  When comparing live weight to dressed weight, if you can find 
animals that can hit 60% of the live weight in dressed weight, then your

feed has been well used.  Dexter is an excellent example of this kind of

cattle.  But if your dressed weight is only 40%, then your feed has gone
to 
growing something that is in the waste stream and this is not
profitable.

The most important thing, unfortunately is regulations.  How do you get
to 
market with your animals?  What costs of processing do you have to 
pay?  What will the government let you do?

Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 06:53 AM 7/28/2005, you wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>It looks like I've finally convinced the wife to make the investment in

>some land and do some sustainable farming. I've been practicing in my 
>garden many years and would like to begin with pigs and chickens since 
>everyone else seems to be raising cattle and sheep. I live in Uruguay. 
>There are quite a few small holdings (7 to 25 heactares) available at 
>prices I can afford. I am doing vermiculture and have a fair
understanding 
>of soils but I've never raised animals other than pets. Do I purchase
good 
>land that's arable or marginal land and improve it with the pigs and 
>chickens? What sort of water flows, either underground or surface, will
I 
>require? How many pigs and chickens can I raise sustainably on say 15 
>hectares. I want to be self sufficient or at least as much as possible.
I 
>want to be low tech but profitable. Any suggestions out there would be 
>appreciated.
>
>Tom Irwin
>



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[Biofuel] Moving to the land was The Saudi oil bombshell

[Garth & Kim Travis]

Greetings,

First I would like to say good luck on your new venture.  Have you read the 
entire small farms library at JTF?  It is a great place to start.


Are you aware of just how much land 15 hectares is?  To farm that much 
land, you are going to need some serious equipment.  That is, if you plan 
on doing it sustainably.  You would be running thousands of chickens and 
hundreds of pigs in order to create enough manure to bring back depleted 
land.


The real beauty of sustainable farming is how little land you need to raise 
enough food for several families.  I do belive that the quoted figures are 
1 hectare for a family of 6, and that includes income.


Assuming that you understand the above, then I would suggest that you look 
into breeds.  Many of the old endangered breeds are best for sustainable 
farming.  For example: Tamworth pigs.  These are a smaller bacon pig, not a 
lard pig.  They do not survive factory farming and being enclosed and are 
therefore endangered, but they are a fabulous pasture pig.  They live in 
the pasture, year round in  snowy areas and in the heat.  And they are no 
more expensive than good breeding stock of any other breed.  The trick is 
to know what the challenges of your area are and to pick stock that can 
thrive where you are.  Then, you don't have all the expensive medicines and 
upkeep that factory farmers put up with.


The other thing to look at is what is your feed going to?  While I know 
that you don't want to do cattle, they are the easiest explanation of what 
I mean.  When comparing live weight to dressed weight, if you can find 
animals that can hit 60% of the live weight in dressed weight, then your 
feed has been well used.  Dexter is an excellent example of this kind of 
cattle.  But if your dressed weight is only 40%, then your feed has gone to 
growing something that is in the waste stream and this is not profitable.


The most important thing, unfortunately is regulations.  How do you get to 
market with your animals?  What costs of processing do you have to 
pay?  What will the government let you do?


Bright Blessings,
Kim

At 06:53 AM 7/28/2005, you wrote:

Hi All,

It looks like I've finally convinced the wife to make the investment in 
some land and do some sustainable farming. I've been practicing in my 
garden many years and would like to begin with pigs and chickens since 
everyone else seems to be raising cattle and sheep. I live in Uruguay. 
There are quite a few small holdings (7 to 25 heactares) available at 
prices I can afford. I am doing vermiculture and have a fair understanding 
of soils but I've never raised animals other than pets. Do I purchase good 
land that's arable or marginal land and improve it with the pigs and 
chickens? What sort of water flows, either underground or surface, will I 
require? How many pigs and chickens can I raise sustainably on say 15 
hectares. I want to be self sufficient or at least as much as possible. I 
want to be low tech but profitable. Any suggestions out there would be 
appreciated.


Tom Irwin





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RE: [Biofuel] The Saudi oil bombshell

[Tom Irwin]

Hi All,

It looks like I've finally convinced the wife to make the investment in some 
land and do some sustainable farming. I've been practicing in my garden many 
years and would like to begin with pigs and chickens since everyone else seems 
to be raising cattle and sheep. I live in Uruguay. There are quite a few small 
holdings (7 to 25 heactares) available at prices I can afford. I am doing 
vermiculture and have a fair understanding of soils but I've never raised 
animals other than pets. Do I purchase good land that's arable or marginal land 
and improve it with the pigs and chickens? What sort of water flows, either 
underground or surface, will I require? How many pigs and chickens can I raise 
sustainably on say 15 hectares. I want to be self sufficient or at least as 
much as possible. I want to be low tech but profitable. Any suggestions out 
there would be appreciated. 

Tom Irwin
 

-Original Message-
From: Keith Addison
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: 7/28/05 3:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Saudi oil bombshell

Hi MH

Thanks again for your posts, always relevant and worth a read.

Just one comment, below...

>Toward Sustainable Agriculture
> By Stephen Heckeroth
> http://www.renewables.com/Permaculture/SustAgri.htm
> The finite nature of the petroleum resource is universally
acknowledged,
> yet the fact that there is an end to the petroleum resource is 
>universally ignored.
> Food production and distribution in the developed world has become 
>so dependent on
> petroleum use, it's hard to imagine how agriculture will function
without it.
> The latest records from the US Department of Agriculture state that
> US crop production consumed 1.4 billion gallons of gasoline,
> 3.5 billion gallons of diesel and .9 billion gallons of propane in 
>1994.  [more]
>
> Transition Fuels
>  Returning to an agrarian labor intensive economy is not a 
>likely scenario
> for a burgeoning population that thinks food comes from the store. 
>Draft animals
> have been successfully used for centuries to increase production. 
>But it takes
> at least three acres of prime agricultural land and more than 10 
>acres of grassland
> to feed one workhorse.  [more]

One acre, actually, and if you do it right you can refertilise the 
whole farm that way - keeping the animals is not only free it saves 
bags of money and generates good profits from all the other crops. 
See:

Ley Farming
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#ley

> There's still the tar sands and oil shale of North America
> which maybe mentioned in the up coming US Energy Bill.
>
> Encyclopedia: Tar sands
>   http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Tar-sands
> Encyclopedia: Oil shale
>   http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Oil-shale
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Now that was one interesting article. Does anyone have any idea 
>what this will mean
> > to agricultural production, particularly in the G-8 countries. Is 
>it time to start
> > breeding Clydesdales or other heavy work horses? I´ve often 
>thought that the
> > Pennsylvania Dutch were on to something when it came to 
>sustainability. What about
> > the machinery used on farms? Can it be pulled by big horses or 
>will new machines
> > have to be made or purchased from antique stores? Exactly how 
>much diesel is
> > consumed by farming and can it be shifted to BioD. It seems like 
>there could be
> > some production lags.

I don't think so. The horse-drawn farm machinery developed prior to 
the 1950s was excellent. Modern industrialised agricultural 
production is not sustainable anyway, with or without fossil-fuel 
inputs. It's very wasteful, highly destructive and extremely 
expensive.

"Crops without profit", New Scientist, 18 December 1999 -- Low-cost 
food, the great achievement of postwar high-input intensive farming, 
may be an illusion. The most detailed study yet of the industry's 
wider balance sheet has found the costs of cleaning up pollution, 
repairing habitats and coping with sickness caused by farming almost 
equals the industry's income. The true cost of £208 per hectare is 
double the amount suggested by previous, less detailed, studies of 
the costs in Germany and the US. But the survey's chief author, Jules 
Pretty of the Centre for Environment and Society at the University of 
Essex, describes this figure as "very conservative". Environmental 
economists say the findings suggest the need for a radical rethink of 
Europe's farming policy.
http://www.biotech-info.net/crops_without_profit.html

An assessment of the total external costs of UK agriculture, J.N. 
Pretty, C. Brett, D. Gee, R.E. Hine, C.F. Mason, J.I.L. Morison, H. 
Raven, M.D. Rayment, G. van der Bijl, Agricultural Systems 65 (2) 
(2000) pp. 113-136 -- this paper was this peer-reviewed journal's 
second-most-popular download of the year. The report:
http://www2.essex.ac.uk/ces/ResearchProgrammes/Externalities/AgSystTot 
alExtCostsUKagri.htm

... for instance. Lots more here:

http://journe

Re: [Biofuel] Pressure release

[Appal Energy]

> How are the tanks vented?

Any tank holding any percentage of methanol should have a vapor line 
running to a central manifold prior to passing through a condensor. The 
greatest pressure build-up occurs during the first moments of reaction. 
Rather than a pressure relief valve that could easily fail, an 
adjustable  pressure "flap" can be constructed that opens at low 
pressure. If the vent lines are 2"-4", there's not much chance of the 
pressure building beyond a couple of pounds.


As for a sealed system? There are two options. Either size and construct 
all parts of the system that will be in the methanol loop (tanks, 
transfer lines, pumps vents, etc.) to withstand negative pressure, or 
simple make sure that any new feedstock and reactants that enter do so 
at a speed consistant with the condensor's capacity, allowing all 
exiting vapor to be stripped of methanol.


Sizing a condensor would be a less taxing exercise than constructin an 
entire system for negative pressure.Over size the condensor and the 
reactants can be fed faster. Under size it and they simply have to enter 
at a slower rate.


Todd Swearingen


Ian & Theresa Sims wrote:

I am new to the biofuel world and have read most of the webb site info 
but can't seem to find any reference
to pressure release. They all talk of having a sealed system to 
prevent personal harm and methanol loss but pressure must build with 
A, heating and B,

pumping air in to mix the solution. Question. How are the tanks vented?
Many thanks
Ian



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RE: [Biofuel] Predictions as to crude oil prices, call for discussion

[Mike Sutton]

I have also been wondering about the price of oil and how that might affect
the biodiesel market.

My gut feel has been that with China's continued growth, though at a slower
pace along with other country demands, it seems only logical that oil prices
would continue to rise.  But I wanted some concrete data I could base my
opinion on and therefore have higher confidence.

Last week I did a little research. According to Standard & Poors Oil & Gas
production & marketing report, completed in late May, based on projections
done in April,  their price predictions on West Texas Intermediate (WTI)
average spot oil prices are:
More than $50 per barrel in 2005
$48 in 2006
$46 in 2007
$39 in 2015
$57 in 2025

It is a 48 page report and contains considerable data, but it's hard to
imagine oil prices going down to $39!?!

I'm going to try to check the US department of energy information.

Mike


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Hakan Falk
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 8:11 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Predictions as to crude oil prices, call for
discussion



To those that say that I am overly optimistic, I like want to mention that
it does not take much to be smarter than us and the only ones who will have
that opportunity are our grandchildren.

Hakan


At 01:38 AM 7/28/2005, you wrote:

>Unfortunately it is too late for the only genetic engineering that would
>have produced significant improvements of todays situation. It will also
>need several significant break through to be able to do such genetic
>engineering. We are stuck with Bush, Blair and the rest of the current set
>of world leaders and the voters who elected them. -:((
>
>It is no hope for our generations, so let us hope that our grandchildren
>and this planet can survive despite us.
>
>Hakan
>
>At 01:21 AM 7/28/2005, you wrote:
>>Ron wrote:
>>
>> > Yet I'm not seeing nearly the traffic on this list as I'd expect
>> > on serious efforts to gear up mass biodiesel production:
>> >A- Better crop choices, including breeding or genetically engineering
>> > for such
>>
>>So you think that genetic engineering is "better?" As for better crop
>>choices, perhaps you might care to take note of the soybean council's
>>(NBB's) position against imported palm oil methyl esters. The question
>>has nothing to do with sound crop choices. It has nothing to do with the
>>environment. It has everything to do with the economics of special
>>interests. Put soy in its proper place as a low oil producer and you end
>>up with a soybean oil glut due to the vast production of soy to feed the
>>enormous livestock industry. If you want an answer, "Follow the money."
>>
>> > B- Better production processes, both in terms of efficiency and safety
>>
>>No particular production process is necessarily better than any other,
>>unless you take into account start-up costs of continual processing.
>>Batch plants are the most economical answer. They also meet the demands
>>of distribution, as the fuel should be produced where the feedstock
>>exists, not at some central production facility after having been
>>transported 150 miles, only to have the fuel transported right back to
>>where the oil came from.
>>
>>And what is it that you think production methods are unsafe? Commercial
>>plants adhere to fire, health and safety code.
>>
>> > C- Better _mass_ production processes, ditto
>>
>>Mass production is not the answer. In fact, it's more energy intensive
>>than bio-regional production facilities.
>>
>> > D- Better engines, including ideas like biodiesel / electric hybrids.
>>
>>Talk to George.  One of his very first actions was to eliminate PNGV.
>>
>> > E- Better vehicles in general
>>
>>You already know the answers to this one and the rest.
>>
>> > Not to mention conservation topics:
>> > F- Getting what's on the road to be cleaner and more
>> > efficient no matter what they use as fuel.
>> > G- Figuring out ways to reduce our use of oil, particularly foreign
>> > oil (using non local sources of energy is not as sustainable as using
>> local ones.)
>>
>>Todd Swearingen
>>
>>
>>>~$65 per barrel US by EOY 2005
>>>
>>>IF this prediction holds, then ~$77 per barrel US by sometime in the
>>>range of Dec06 to March07.
>>>
>>>...and it is never going back down to the ~$30-$40 range unless
>>>something very surprising happens.
>>>
>>>These predictions are based on models I've made which include the
>>>effects of the economic growth of China and the US-Iraq war.  They do
>>>not include what the effect would be if a substantial percentage of the
>>>world's dino-diesel and gasoline use was replaced by biodiesel use, nor
>>>do I claim to have any understanding as to how high that percentage
>>>would have to be to significantly impact crude oil prices.
>>>
>>>The Biodiesel community should be galvanized by current oil price trends
>>>since, even without these predictions, biodiesel should be an
>>>economically viable comp

[Biofuel] U.S., five Asian nations agree to push technology to fight climate change

[Alt.EnergyNetwork]

Bush sees the light??



US, Five Asian Nations Agree to Push Technology to Fight Climate Change

http://www.alternate-energy.net/climate_change_coop05.html








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