Re: [Biofuel] Turkeys
At 01:33 PM 8/9/2005, you wrote: Thanks for the info. I really want to do turkeys but the idea of wild birds on free range seems like a lot of work. It there not a tweener turkey breed that is not real stupid but would stay withing mobile fences without escaping? We use India runner ducks to control the bug population, and are quite pleased with the result. Because ducks have webbed feet, they don't damage the garden the way chickens do. Walt http://www.windward.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: killing or toppling leaders
Besides, it violates the Constitution, Article VI - The Supreme Law of the Land The only problem is that the Constitution ceased being the Supreme Law of the Land back in 1861. Now even little children swear allegiance, not to the Constitution, but to the flag (the traditional symbol of the nation's military power - hence the expression to show the flag meaning to send in troops) and the republic for which that might stands. That one nation indivisible part is a direct repudiation of the Declaration of Independence's assertion that governments derive their lawful authority by the consent of the governed. Walt http://www.windward.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Methanol backyard manufacturing possible?
No. We've been discussing this since the list was founded five years ago, but nobody's found a solution yet. Dr Tom Reed, who probably knows more about methanol than most, told me we just aren't there yet. Tom's knowledge of the field is such that when one finds themselves in disagreement with him, they need to go back and check their records to figure out where they went wrong. Walt Patrick of Windward posted some interesting information some time ago and said his organisation would be working on it, but we've heard nothing since. You can check it in the archives if you like. The efficient conversion of biomass to methanol is a complex process. It's long been feasible to do at the industrial level; what we're working on is getting it viable at the community/neighborhood level. Windward is an intentional community dedicated to modeling self-reliant systems, and that's the scale that we're focused on. Maybe it can be simplified further down to the backyard level, but that's hard to see happening. Then again, who would have thought that they come up with bread machines that can mix and bake a loaf of pretty decent bread right there on your kitchen counter? We've been working on the ancillary processes involved such as pressure swing adsorption to provide an on-site oxygen supply for the auto-thermal steam reactor needed to convert char into syngas, the instrumentation network so that we can follow what's going on at the various stages, hydraulic compression, syngas storage, co-generation of steam to feed our 1HP steam engine to drive the generator to power the controls, pumps and so on. The actual condensation of syngas into methanol isn't the demanding part; it's all the other stuff that has to happen first - and happen safely - that is the challenge. Walt http://www.windward.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution
Jesse, I hadn't even heard of it. I'm so glad you brought it up. I'm hoping that it was recorded by someone at some time. As you know, there were and are some efforts to record native traditions and languages before they are all lost. These efforts are not nearly as timely or vigorous as I would like. The efforts to record this information were rigorous indeed since lives and fortunes depended on it. Some background: 1) In the first half of the 18th century, the copyright laws were an effective way to control the proliferation of those seditious devices otherwise known as printing presses. By restricting the printing of material to only those presses which were licensed by the author, the Crown was able to limit the number of them. One side effect was that this placed a premium on new content, since popular works could only be printed by shops in contract with the author. 2) In the first half of the 18th century, the largest army on the continent belonged to the Iroquois Confederacy which just happened to be situated smack in between the French settlements on the Great Lakes, and the British Colonies along the Atlantic seaboard. The fate of the colonies, British and French alike, hinged on whether the Confederacy decided to remain neutral, or come in on one side or the other. 3) The British colonial delegates had to learn the customs and procedures of the Confederacy in order to be able to argue their case effectively. When success is a matter of life or death, one tends to pay very close attention indeed. 4) The colonials were very interested in the proceedings of the Confederate conclaves because the Confederacy was the primary buffer between them and the French, but it also went far beyond that - there was also a tremendous interest in the raw fact that such an organization could even exist as a voluntary association without a king. It wasn't the democratic aspects of the Confederacy that fascinated the colonials, but rather the fact that it was non-aristocratic - that it's prestigious men were recognized by virtue of their demonstrated merit rather than by their bloodline. 5) This was the age of Rousseau and the dream of the noble savage unspoiled by tyrannical kings and predatory aristocrats. The fact that savages had manifestly created a system of governance that had been stable for centuries was very heady stuff to Europeans eager for any lever they could use to topple the towers of aristocratic privilege. 6) The clerks who attended the delegates sent to fourteen of the Confederate conclaves took full and careful notes, which upon their return were snapped up by an eager young printer in Philadelphia who cranked out hundreds and hundreds of copies that were immediate best sellers - high priced volumes which sold out as soon as they hit the docks of Europe. Indeed, it was the incredible financial success reaped by his aggressive printer which allowed him to later indulge his interests in science and politics. 7) Two other points for those interested in the behind the scenes details. The first is that the Confederacy was too eager to confine its power to the six tribes, and by refusing to allow others to join into the Confederacy, they weakened themselves and set the stage for thedivide and conquer end game that worked out the only way it could. 8) And second, while it is true that the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are littered with Confederate principles, it shouldn't be forgot that the founders also leaned heavily on the history of the Republic of Venice, a powerful and independent entity which, while lacking the leadership of a King, still was able to dominated European affairs for almost a thousand years. It later fell to Napoleon's cannons, but back when the founders were founding, it's history as an independent republic made it the envy of libertarians everywhere. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution
Walt, I am confused, are you suggesting that documents could not be written before 1200 to 1500 and are you suggesting that manual production of documents (books) were not done? That's the generally accepted understanding, that the only groups capable of making a written record prior to 1500 were down in central America. None of the Six Nations had a system of written records, at least not that I've heard tell of. In fact, what are you trying to tell us? I can not figure out what you mean. Keith seems to have the same problem ;-) Are you sure that Six Nations had no way to document things, or that it had not been documented by someone else at the time. If so, I'd love to hear about it. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Our Godless Constitution
Has anyone else ever seen a copy of the Six Nations Constitution? It's hard to imagine that any such document could exist. The agreement was formulated sometime between 1200 and 1500, long before the Six Nations had a way to write such an agreement down. Any document prepared in modern times would be analogous to a modern copy of the works of Homer; i.e. the product of a long oral tradition separating the author from the present age. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Hi Keith, Kim, Family of origin, place of origin, it's deep, was what I meant. Somewhere out of our thinking brain. It's an issue, someway or another, as your thoughtful replies imply. Some people search around until they find their real home, and whew! That's satisfaction. I'm a Southron. Back during The War thousands of verses were written to our national anthem, Dixie; one of them went, I thank God every sparklin' morn That he saw fit to have me born in Dixie. I've always felt that way, and feel sad for anyone who doesn't feel that way about their natal land. And if one is truly fortunate, as their youth ends and they are reborn as an adult, they'll find their heart's homeland, as John Denver described when he wrote, He was born in the summer of his twenty-second year, coming home to a place he'd never been before. He left yesterday behind him, you might say he was born again, you might say he found the key to every door. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
Having said that I did not feel that way about the land of my birth, I added this: Do you think I must necessarily be deprived in some or many ways because of this? I certainly don't think so. Nor would I say that people who have not gained what I've gained because I did not have their encumbrances are deprived either - to each his own. No, I don't - I think you're a sad person who seems to need to attack others in order to exorcise some internal demon. Life is a rough and uncertain affair, and we are all the children of heroes - every community is worth cherishing even by those who leave them behind. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] U.S., Islam, and Religion
I am finding this rather interesting. I went back to Canada last year and both hubby and I felt like visitors. We don't live there anymore. Maybe because there are two of us, both from similar culture and transplanted together, that our new home really feels like home. I would say home is where your dreams come true. Bright Blessings, Wasn't it Joel Garreau who noted that home is where you understand the sons-of-b**ches. Always made sense to me. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Do not worry, I do not think that China (or any other country) see US as a major source of food for humans. It is almost unconceivable that they would go to such efforts to secure corn supply for their own poultry production. LOL I live in an agricultural county in the Pacific Northwest, and there's little doubt around here that China is a major buyer of local products, and the focus isn't on corn, it's on wheat. Those who argue for the food colony concept note that there has been a sizable movement of people away from rural farms towards factory jobs in China, and that with internal food production falling, it's inevitable that China will be importing more food in the future. And while the Chinese population is increasing, it's arable land isn't. And it's not just the US alone; the recent spate of Chinese purchases in Canada is signaling an increase in the utilization of North America as a source for raw materials for Chinese industry. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Can someone please explain why it is that approx. 70 to 80% (I think I am being a little too conservative with these percentages) of the items for sale, at any given department store in America today, are made in China? This question has bothered me for years. There are those who will tell you that China declared economic war on the US by first devaluing their currency, and then pegging it to the US$. The income gain from the resulting flood of merchandise you've described has enabled China to embark on a program of acquiring key assets in and around the US such as both ends of the Panama canal, the largest container trans-shipment facility in the Atlantic, Global Crossing's fiber optic network, etc. China currently holds a half-trillion in US securities, a holding which could allow them to crash the dollar any time they chose by dumping those securities on the world market. That makes for an impressive chip to hold over Washington's head any time they want to play hard ball. The sale of an endless supply of cheap consumer goods through Wal-Mart (they market more than $10 billion a month of these goods) has shifted control of the dollar from Washington to Beijing. China has also embarked on a program of using those funds to buy up blocks of strategic resources and technology. For example, the super magnets used in the servo motors of cruise missiles used to be manufactured in the US. The Chinese bought that plant, duplicated it in China, and have since begun the process of closing down the US plant. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Most Americans like Walt Patrick are victims of USA media reporting, which unfortunately twist their facts depending on which lobby pays them in Washington. Here's an example of the twisty reporting that raises concerns. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26539 Is CS offering gospel or BS? Walt Patrick certainly doesn't know, but this he is confident of: the Chinese think in the long term, whereas Americans seem to have abandoned any considerations beyond those immediately at hand. And the smart money knows that those who play the long game tend to win in the long run. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Japan murdered millions of innocent people in the 2nd World War, more than the Nazis, yet they have more nuclear power stations (2nd to France) than USA. For them to convert to nuclear bombs and embarked on their military is like waiting for history to repeat itself. That's part of what makes the half trillion dollars held in China's hands so problematic since Japan holds about the same amount of US paper. If China dumps the dollar, that move will likely crash the Japanese economy as well. In short, from the Chinese perspective, it's a two-fer. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Made in China?
Walt Patrick wrote: That's part of what makes the half trillion dollars held in China's hands so problematic since Japan holds about the same amount of US paper. If China dumps the dollar, that move will likely crash the Japanese economy as well. In short, from the Chinese perspective, it's a two-fer. Wouldn't that strategy be detrimental to the Chinese? Would it be wise to make such a tremendous investment only to watch its value evaporate? What of the Chinese economy in that case? The Chinese are clever people. (There are, in fact, clever people all over the world.) Why would they seek the demise of their largest market? I absolutely agree that the Chinese are clever people. I would also add that I believe they're deadly serious about what they're doing. CS would evidently have us believe that the Chinese didn't understand what they were doing when they devalued their currency and then pegged it to the dollar. Perhaps, but I don't buy it. I think they had a plan and were acting in accordance with that plan. I may not know what their plan was, but I'm confident that they acted reasonably and in accordance with their traditions and world view. Politics at that level is a multi-track affair, and some of the tracks contradict other tracks. For example, one might was well ask why the US, or Russia, or China would build nuclear arsenals capable of blowing their customers back into the Stone Age? Destroying one's customers is obviously not good for business, but there are certain geopolitical advantages to be had from possessing the ability to do that. Just as there are advantages to be gained from _being able_ to nuke the other side's economy, which you'll please note, is a different thing from actually doing it. Within living memory, China has taken economic steps which resulted in the deaths of millions of their own citizens; I therefore conclude that they wouldn't blush at taking steps which diminished the quality of life for Americans or Japanese. For example, their ability to throw the US economy into a tailspin by dumping dollars makes for an interesting non-nuclear option for them to threaten deploy when they decide to resolve the Taiwan problem. I'm happy that CS trusts the Chinese government and it's intentions. I don't. Heck, I don't trust the intentions of the US government, or the French government, or the German government (I trust you get the pattern here). About the best I can hope for is that they are acting in their reasonable self interest - i.e. that the folks in charge are not fools. My position would be that the folks in charge in China are not fools, and neither are they stooges for Wal-Mart. My guess is that they have a plan to convert the US into a colony exporting food and raw materials to China; I could be wrong, but that's the way the future looks to me. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] god problems (see, got rid of titration)
Indeed! If we hadn't mortgaged the future of our children on warfare, what kind of goodwill could we be spreading in South Asia right now? I can imagine C 130s laden with food and water. I can envision the Army Corps of Engineers helping to restore infrastructure. I believe the Navy and Coast Guard could be used in the search for survivors swept out to sea. The Marines could be protecting property from looters, and their medical teams providing aid to the injured. What a different world we would live in if my supposedly Christian nation acted like a nation under God! I can only conclude that your Old Testament tells of a different God than the one described in my copy. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Methanol update
Walt you out there? If so, would you care to chime in and add any new information? Haven't blown myself up yet :-) Don't know that there's anything I'd call new but it's more along the lines of the saying that the only thing new is the history you don't know. There have been so many interesting developments over the past decade that it's a challenge to sort them all out. For example, the development of pressure swing absorption (and it's newer sister vacuum swing adsorption) now make it possible for micro plants to generate low cost oxygen on site, something which makes processes ranging from the old Union Carbide Purox process to auto-thermal steam reforming feasible for small plants. Another example is torrefication, a process which increases the energy yield when converting wood chips in char, but also offers significant improvements in material handling. Here's a pic of our latest test reactor without its shroud. http://www.windward.org/notes/notes64/stfrm01.jpg The reactor will be encased in castable refractory insulation, so the angle iron welded to the outside is there to create channels through the insulation for hot gas to rise from the lower section to the upper, thereby heating the char in the reactor. Here's another shot that shows the heat exchanger a bit more clearly. http://www.windward.org/notes/notes64/stfrm02.jpg And another showing the shroud being put in place prior to pouring in the castable insulation. http://www.windward.org/notes/notes64/atr02.jpg The heat exchanger may not be needed, but it's an option we wanted to build in while it was easy to do so. This is a research reactor, and as ever, research is what you do when you don't know what you're doing :-) The Plan at this point is to fill the reactor with wood chips http://www.windward.org/notes/notes64/wdchip01.jpg produced by our PTO mounted chipper http://www.windward.org/notes/notes64/wdchip02.jpg and torrefy them into char, and then auto-thermally reform the char into syngas. Those unfamiliar with torrefication might want to start with this description. http://hem.fyristorg.com/zanzi/torrefaction.html Through the summer we've been busy with a variety of construction projects, but as the winter rains set in, we're looking forward to getting back to working on weaving together the many strands that go into a project like this. For example, we've built a 20'x40' workshop that will be getting a hydronic slab floor so that we can utilize the low grade heat coming out of the heat exchangers. with best wishes from Windward, Walt http://www.windward.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel]Beaten Afgan bride
Short story : A journalist went in Afghanistan when the talibans ruled the country. She was shocked to see the women respectuously walking 10 meters behind theirs husbands or brothers along the road. She flied back last year and has been glad to see that things have changed, and now the women were walking 10 meters ahead. The males were following this time. Very excited, the journalist interviewed one of the women and asked her whith emphasis what's made this change possible. the talibans mined the road before leaving answered the woman. possible this story is true ? Was it true when they told the same story about Korean women fifty years ago? Walt The only thing new is the history you don't know. ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Short-range hydrogen
Walt, If I charge an EV from my solar panels, I can go twice as far than If I used that electric to electrolyze hydrogen, compress it, and burn it in a fuel cell. Not to mention the costs involved with the electrolyzer, the compressor, and the fuel cell far outweigh the cost of an EV. Now why would I be so foolish to throw away my expensive and high quality PV electric in such a manner? Beats me. I don't even understand why you're setting up and attacking arguments I'm not making; how foolish is that? PVs aren't the only game in town, although they do have their uses and are part of the energy mix we're working with. What we're looking at in this case is that we're looking at converting wind power to H2 and O2 and then piping that to point-of-use. We want the O2 to drive auto-thermal reformation of char; the use of the H2 is secondary. Now it may be more effective to use PSA or VSA technology to generate our O2, but we look forward to adding that option to our tool kit as well. Let me try and explain the car thing again. It's nice to have an EV that has a range of 100 miles, but that's not going to get us to the Big City and back again, so it would have to be classed here as a limited-use vehicle. It doesn't make economic sense for us to insure a vehicle that isn't capable of multi-use. We like the idea of being able to capture wind energy and then use it in a variety of ways. We're not going to channelize our energy program on the grounds of highest and best use since we care more about flexibility and diversity than we do about profitability and efficiency. Walt http://www.windward.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Short-range hydrogen
Did you consider how many kWh it would have taken for that 30 miles on hydrogen, then compared how many miles that amount of kWh would have taken you on a pure EV? More than 60 miles .. But a vehicle with a range of 60 miles is of less utility to me than one which can do 30 miles on home-produced, tax-free H2, and then make it home on commercial fuel. Note that when I say tax-free I'm thinking more about the taxes I have to pay on income (fed, state, unemp, socsec, etc.) than just road taxes. You're right that there are hidden costs in producing one's one fuel, but there are also a lot of hidden cost involved in working for a paycheck and then using net income to buy fuel. Walt http://www.windward.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Short-range hydrogen (was solar hydrogen)
Why do you not use ethanol instead or biodiesel if the truck is a diesel? Our primary interest is in converting wood waste into methanol. That involves generating H2 and CO, and being able to sweeten the mix in order to increase yield, hence our interest in ancillary ways to generate and use hydrogen. To see any sense in hydrogen, you must use the unbeatable female logic, because I like it. Us girly-men do tend to look at things from a non-linear perspective at times :-) We're coming at this from a different angle. Over the past two decades we've built an intentional research community that does all sorts of interesting things here on our 130 acre campus. We're not looking to sell energy in any form; we just don't want to have to buy energy in order to support the work we do. Our prime goal is the study and utilization of sustainable systems, and often the key to that lies in diversity. So while it's quite true that some energy utilization paths make more sense than others in a given application, it's also true that there's value in keeping your options open. We're not going to bet the farm on any one path, and we've found that most technological options have something to offer at some point in the cycle. Our land has a wealth of energy resources including solar, wind, and hydro in addition to our forest's annual production of biomass. From that the community wants heating, cooling, lights, transportation fuel, food, fiber and so on. There's no one technology that can cover that wide a range of interests and activities so we're usually tinkering with a range of options and seeing how they might mesh to better meet our needs. And yes, sometimes we mess with options for no better reason that it pleases us to do so :-) Walt http://www.windward.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Short-range hydrogen
Walt isn't being upfront about the system costs of a renewable system that can generate 30 miles per day of hydrogen. It's more than you will pay in fuel taxes in your lifetime. You're probably right, but so what? Everyone's situation is different, and therefore their options will differ as well. Our situation is such that we're not constrained by the economics that rule corporate research. Corporations have to pay rent for the land they use; we've got our 130 acre campus, and the building's we've built there, and eleven septic systems, and more than a mile of underground water lines, and so on all owned outright, so we don't have to figure those costs in our systems. And we don't have shareholders who expect a monetary return on that investment. What they do expect is that we'll use these resources to explore ways that sustainable energy can be made relevant to community-based systems. Corporations have to pay hefty salaries to get engineers to design and build their systems; we're a team of retired/laid-off engineers who live here and do these things because they're fun and need doing, so we don't have to figure those personnel costs in either. Corporations have to hire welders, machinists and electricians to set up their systems; we have our own machine shop with six different types of welders, an induction foundry that can handle 200 pound castings, our own saw mill (and our own trees for that matter), and on and on . . . Are we a bunch of amateur tinkers? You bet, we are. We do this because we love the concepts, are fascinated by the technology and committed to finding ways to weave a renewable matrix that will provide a quality life. It's sort of like the need to distinguish between what one's going to have for dinner, and how one is going to manage their diet. You can get a McDonald's double-cheese burger for a buck a piece every day of the week, so why endure all the upfront cost involved in building a kitchen and learning to cook? Walt http://www.windward.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Short-range hydrogen (was solar hydrogen)
upon a time we had a Chevy Nova that we considered operating on hydrogen. Assuming that we stored the H2 in a series of small scuba-like tanks, we figured we could get about thirty miles before the H2 ran out. Initially, that was disappointing, but then we got to figuring that so long as we could then switch back to gasoline in order to continue on our way, the better way to look at this was that we'd be getting the first 30 miles each day from hydrogen, and for the vast majority of days, that was more than our actual usage. When we realized that a thirty mile range was sufficient to handle more than 90% of the trips we made in that rig, we began to see the utility of the conversion in a different light. Now, we're located on 130 acres and burn a considerable amount of gas running around the property, so even the few miles that the pickup truck was getting would be relevant, so long as we could switch back to gasoline when we make trips off property. It's been observed that sometimes The Problem isn't a factual lack, but rather a conceptual lock. For what it's worth, Walt http://www.windward.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[Biofuel] Handbuilt electrolyzers? [was: Solar Hydrogen]
The four-cylinder engine is tuned to run on hydrogen, which is produced by a hand-built electrolysis system mounted in the bed. For me, the most interesting part of the experiment involved the mobile electrolysis unit. Anyone have a handle on what the state-of-the-art is for mobile electrolysis? Walt http://www.windward.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
Re: [Biofuel] Cheap oil
I just encountered two articles at my library that strengthens my belief that we are beginning to see the end of cheap oil NOW from how we've always known it. Good article with some interesting points, but I feel the need to quibble a bit. The problem is that oil _is_ cheap, even at $50 a barrel because while a barrel of oil is real, the dollar is not. The oil crisis of the '70s was triggered by Nixon's decision to remove the dollar's gold backing and OPEC's rational response to his decision. Now, we're facing a similar situation. The world is being flooded with dollar denominated debt, a tidal wave which is going to affect the dollar denominated value of all commodities. People talk about fifty dollar a barrel oil as if fifty dollars means something. It doesn't. Each dollar is just a drop in a vast sea of unsupported, unredeemable debt, and as foreign investors start to catch on, the dollar is going to continue to fall in value. In short, it isn't so much a matter of the cost of oil going up, but rather the value of the dollar going down. Walt ___ Biofuel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://wwia.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/biofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel archives at Infoarchive.net (searchable): http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
[biofuel] PSA - Oxygen source
One of the most interesting new developments to come down the pike in the past decade involves the use of ceramic membranes to separate out gases such as hydrogen and oxygen from gas streams. This process, called Pressure Swing Adsorption, allows oxygen to be separated from low pressure air, thereby making autothermal reforming of biowaste much more feasible for small plants. My question is this; is anyone familiar with a source for the ceramic guts for one of the these units? I notice that China is starting to produce PSA-O2 units; is anyone familiar with their products? with appreciation, Walt http://www.windward.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Syngas to methanol
At 02:42 PM 5/20/04 +0100, you wrote: Walt Have you looked at polyethene to ethanol reactors? Mark Nope. Tell us more :-) Walt Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Syngas to methanol
At 09:41 AM 5/19/04 +0100, you wrote: Walt Does you have any reference files I could look at please? Nothing that's not available on the net through google. with best wishes, Walt Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Syngas to methanol
At 11:10 AM 5/18/04 -0400, Martin wrote: Walt, are there any legal problems in doing this since it is going to be patented? I think it's great though, please keep us updated on how it goes. The research was done using a Department of Energy grant, so my understanding is that there's a public interest in the patent. When I spoke with the inventor, he didn't have a problem with us working on utilizing his work. Anyone familiar with the niceties involved in public use of research funded by the DoE? Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Syngas to methanol
At 06:46 PM 5/15/04 -0600, Greg wrote: Is that number correct? I get No patents have matched your query for 20030158270. Sorry that I wasn't more clear. That's the patent application number; you have to search under Published Applications, not Issued Patents. Walt Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Wood chipper report
Long-term readers will recall that Windward's biofuel work is focused on converting waste wood into methanol. One of the critical steps on that journey involves the need to convert forest cullings into a standardized feedstock. Late last fall we purchased a PTO mounted chipper for $1950 from Tractors-Etc 83969 N Pacific Hwy Creswell OR 97426 Telephone: 541-895-2550, Fax: 541-895-2756 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Here's a url for the importer http://www.chinadepot.com/woodchip.html By the time we got it home and assembled, we barely got to chip anything before snow settled in for the winter. Fast-forwarding five months, a spring windstorm brought down a dead pine, and in the process of cleaning that up we finally got a chance to try out the chipper generating three 55 gallon drums of chips. http://www.windward.org/notes/notes64/wdchip02.jpg We've still haven't gotten the feed mechanism adjusted right yet, but we're learning as we go and at this point I'm confident that it's going to do good work for us. Here's a picture of the chips we're getting. http://www.windward.org/notes/notes64/wdchip01.jpg The upshot is that we're very happy with this piece of gear. Walt http://www.windward.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Syngas to methanol
At 11:40 AM 5/15/04 +, you wrote: - hi walt. what do you want for the steam engine?? we want to run one as an adjunct to our 25hp boiler which runs our biodiesel plant and distillery.we would love to use an old timey steam motor to run a generator..we want a cogeneration segment as part of our fuel production system. It looks like a historical association has come together to purchase the steam engine and return it to it's original use, that of powering a carousel that's maintained by a local community. The reason we decided to not use the old engine for the purpose you're describing is that there are new engines available that will do the job, so we figured that it didn't make sense to put the wear and tear on an antique. Consequently we replaced the 5 hp antique with a 1 hp engine from Mike Brown. http://home.earthlink.net/~dlaw70/12stmng.htm The plan is to use a thermal battery to store heat and then use that heat to operate the smaller steam engine 24x7. If one's primary focus is on electrical generation, then going with a larger engine makes sense, but when you're talking about co-generation, and the generation of electricity is ancillary, then the smaller set up is easier to work with, develop and control. We're in a net metering situation, so we're just looking to replace the electricity we use, not to try and produce a surplus. P,S. are you talking about destructive distillation of methanol or using the chips for gasification? we are fitting out six wheel drive duece and a half with a chipper and a portable sawmill so we can implement a resource recovery program here in the Smoky mountains recovering bettle killed trees and recycling them The path we're pursuing is to convert the woodchips into syngas, and then condense that into methanol. There have been two major developments in that area. The first involves grinding up the zinc oxide catalyst into a powder that's slurried with mineral oil. This allowed the through-pass conversion rates to climb from the traditional 5% per pass to around 20%. Just as importantly, it allowed the use of a micro reactor, i.e. the engineering tests that were used to design the plant described in the link below was a six foot length of one inch diameter stainless steel pipe. http://www.lanl.gov/projects/cctc/factsheets/estmn/csliquiddemo.html The second involves a co-catalyst system developed by Dr. Mahajan which allows the reaction to proceed at much reduced temperatures and pressures (100 PSI and 150 C) The co-catalyst is also much less sensitive to the presence of CO2 in the feed stream. This route is especially interesting because it raises the single pass conversion rate up to better than 90%. At that point, you can burn off the uncondensed gas and not have to worry about the accumulation of inert gases (i.e. N2) in the reactor. The url for the published patent application is long so I'll just invite those who are interested to go to http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html and search for mahajan and methanol. The information is under patent application number 20030158270. Currently we're undertaking to install a 100' tower and wind generator in order to produce quantities of H2 and O2. We're planning on using O2 (instead of air) to drive the thermodynamics of the conversion, and will use the H2 to adjust the ratio of CO to H2 in the syngas. Hope this helps clarify what we're doing. Walt http://www.windward.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Why methanol?
At 04:17 PM 3/14/04 +0900, Keith wrote: Anyway, a lot of more recent work has been going into new enzymes and new processes, with promising results so far. Walt Patrick gave us a run-down on this in previous messages. For what it's worth, our commitment to methanol comes from (1) our long-term goal of processing municipal waste into a marketable commodity, and (2) our goal to do this on a floating platform at sea. Seasteading, the establishment of a socially and economically viable community at sea, has long been seen as the next step in mankind's journey into space, since if we can't build a viable life at sea, then we don't have much chance of pulling it off in a weightless vacuum. A barge anchored in a current of water has access to compressive energy and cooling water, and given the relatively unlimited supply of carbaceous waste available, the only real question is how do we get there from here? That's the key reason our facility is located in south central Washington state near the Columbia River and one of the largest land fill operations in the country. Right now, we're working on ways to convert what we have (lots of forest waste) into methanol in order to develop our skills and understanding of the chemistry, materials handling and social-issues involved. Were that not the case, I expect that we'd be looking instead at using the sulfuric acid process to convert the wood waste we have here on our site into ethanol. A good website to check out to learn more about that process would be http://www.gaianbioenergy.com/ with best wishes, Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
At 08:07 AM 3/2/04 -0500, Alan wrote: Walt Patrick wrote: I think you're falling into your own trap of seeing things according to a partisan agenda, but in a different, much broader, and much more important sense, that goes much further than the national concerns of some among the minority American contingent here. Us and them, and you're not considering them, but them is the majority here, non-Americans of every ilk. You think your election only concerns Americans? It's not my election. I'm not a citizen. For someone who claims to not be a citizen you sure do know a lot about US Civil War history. There are many people of a historical bent who see that conflict as one of the great changing points in history. I find it especially fascinating since having a Southern father and an Northern mother, I have a reasonable chance of understanding the weltgeist of the key actors. One of the working definitions of the concept of home is that place where you understand the SOBs and why they are the way they are. Oh, that's right, you're an expat. But, keep in mind, most expats retain the citizenship to wherever they originate from. So I guess that'd make you a former American. Keep in mind also that as far as the US Department Of State is concerned you're an American for life unless you publicly and in writing renounce your US citizenship, and send the appropriate paperwork to the appropriate places. I'm quite aware of the proprietary dimension that comes with a US birth certificate. Many have noted that the Civil War didn't end slavery, it just leveled the playing field. Indeed, there are many of us who see the upcoming election as little more than a chance for the field hands to elect the next overseer. One holds the whip in his right hand, the other in his left, but it's hard to see that as a material difference. You seem to be one of those expats who is both proud to be and American and at the same time anti-american with the zeal of a convert. I'm not proud to be an American. I had no say and take no credit for where my mother chose to give birth. I do respect and feel a sense of indebtedness for the opportunities which came with that accident of birth. I believe that there's nothing more radical than a working model of a better way; what I am proud of is the work I've done to help create working models of viable solutions. I'm also not anti-American. This country has done many good things, as well as many things that weren't. There was a party during The War when a woman asked Lincoln if he didn't agree that God was on their side. Lincoln reported replied something along the lines of, Madam, the question is more one of whether in this conflict, are we on God's side? One of the ironies of life is that something good things get done for bad reasons, just as bad things can come with the best of intentions. At this point in time, America has a profound impact on the present, a weight that will shift as China and India come into the modern age. It's a constantly shifting pattern in which the only thing certain is that change will come. You also seem to have a lot of deeply held anger. Good luck dealing with it. I do my best, but it's not a matter of anger but rather one of fear since when patterns repeat themselves, it's a warning. For example, the dismissive treatment and personal attacks we're currently seeing directed at Bush are very similar to the way that the Democrats dismissed Lincoln as a rube and mocked him as the great ape. It was a grievous error then; I fear that it is a grievous error now. Have a nice life. Thanks. I am. Walt Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Weapons of Mass Deception
At 12:36 AM 2/24/04 +, you wrote: --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, Walt Patrick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Someone lacking the stones to even sign his post. Please don't swagger around like some testosterone saturated teenager looking for trouble. Look at the email address if you want to see my name. People who have the courage of their convictions aren't shy about signing their names to what they post. They don't hide behind email addresses. You called me out by name to ridicule my post; at least have the class to sign yours. Unless it's the policy of the list owner to allow anonymous personal attacks. Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
At 02:33 AM 2/24/04 -0500, Allan wrote: I believe you mis-spelled Southerners. Or perhaps Confederates. Nope. Southron was and remains the term for a person who supported the Confederate States of America, as opposed to someone who just happened to live in the southeast. And don't forget that the South fired the first shot. When Federal troops moved in under cover of darkness and occupied Fort Sumner, right smack in the middle of the CSA's largest harbor, something had to give. The agreement worked out was that Anderson and his troops would remain in place until their food ran out, at which point they could surrender without loss of face. When Lincoln ordered ships to make the run into the harbor to reprovision the fort, he didn't leave the Confederate government with much choice. It's perhaps useful to remember that the Northern states had just passed a law that raised import duties, the sales tax of that era and the Federal government's primary funding source, from around 15% to around 35%. Even without the increase, the Federal government was taking about a hundred million a year out of the South in fees widely deemed to be governmental protection fees supporting Northern industry. Import duties were collected at customs houses, which is what Ft. Sumner was. That's why so many interpreted the occupation of the fort as a statement that the federal government intended to collect the additional tax come what may. There was a lot of behind the scenes negotiating going on as the Lincoln government attempted to get the Southern states to agree to return to the Union. Lincoln offered to roll back the tax increase to something around 20%, with the added inducement of a constitutional amendment guaranteeing that the Federal government would not interfere with the institution of slavery, but by that time, the secession fever was so strong that the offer to roll back the tax increase fell on deaf ears. Some Southerners had been preaching war for years, and very many were happy when it came. No doubt. But you've reduced The Civil War (The War Between The States) to blue and grey, and it wasn't that simple then either. Such things never are. There were Union militias formed in the deep south, and union sympathizers into the deepest of the deep south. Likewise there were Confederate militias formed north of the Mason-Dixon line that made life interesting in the North. And there were also Confederate sympathizers all over the north. Indeed. The slaveholding states of Maryland, Delaware, Kentucky and Missouri fought on the Northern side. The Confederate states themselves were a fractious lot that had more differences than commonalities. Particularly in the last year of the war, their leaders spent nearly as much time fighting among themselves as they did fighting the Union. Too true. Your comment about the military-industrial complex rings hollow, because after 1865 the military-industrial complex practically ceased to exist. You might find it interesting to study the relationship between Lamar Dupont and the Lincoln administration. The United States didn't keep a large standing army, so it didn't need a large industry to supply a large standing army. There are those who would suggest that given the corporate forces unleased by the war, most of the troops weren't in uniform, that it was only when the troops were needed to show the flag, as in the secession of Panama from Columbia, that the connection between corporate America and the troops became explicit. And yet, to this day, The Civil War was our most damaging war to date. Largely because of the use of Napoleanic tactics in early industrial warfare there were huge numbers of casualties. Because of this The Civil War produced more American deaths than all of our other wars combined. Cold Harbor is a good example of the scale of the tragedy. I say again, get Bush out of the White House first. Worry about making major changes to the federal government later. Your call. My perspective is that we all lost the war, and that the governmental protestations of democratic action have been a sham ever since. As the boss of Tammany Hall said so well, I don't care who you let vote so long as I get to decide who runs. Given the rampant emotionalism evident on both sides, it's likely that the game will continue in stalemate for some time to come. To quote Mayor Daley, Today, the real problem is the future. It's my hope that opening up new energy sources at the grass roots level (which I thought was the point behind this list) will open up new options for change. That's why we're working on building a micro reactor for converting carbon-based waste into methanol. It used to be that newspapers had a stranglehold on information, but the internet
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
At 04:50 AM 2/25/04 +0900, Keith wrote: Politicians, right and left, lie. That's hardly news, and hardly likely to change unless conditions render them irrelevant. That's why I'm here on this list, to glean information which might help further that goal. It's becoming quite evident that other would rather pursue their paritsan agenda regardless of how many people it drives off-list. I'd like you to amplify that please. Please be specific, you've intimated something like this previously - who and what exactly are you talking about? And why do you think people are been driven off-list? Which people? Are you sure I'm the one you're thinking of? I believe that this is the first time I've raised the issue, but others have heretofore protested the abuse of the list and been essentially told point blank to shut up or leave. I can assure you that I've thought about unsubscribing more than once in the last few weeks due to the level of partisan hatred that's dominated the list of late. I come here to learn about biofuel, not to hear rants from folks who hate Bush but somehow fail to remember the thirty to forty thousand men, women and children who were infected with HIV and Hep-C by tainted blood drawn from Arkansas prisons and illegally sold in Canada in order to fund Clinton's run for the White House. I can't conceive how anyone could not be totally outraged over that. I think you're falling into your own trap of seeing things according to a partisan agenda, but in a different, much broader, and much more important sense, that goes much further than the national concerns of some among the minority American contingent here. Us and them, and you're not considering them, but them is the majority here, non-Americans of every ilk. You think your election only concerns Americans? It's not my election. I'm not a citizen. The actions of your current administration See above comment. have been the cause of the biggest protests worldwide and the most vocal and united opposition the world has ever seen, by a very long way, quite unprecedented. Not according to my reading of history, but even if it were true, I'm not particularly impressed by volume and quantity. You think it has nothing to do with biofuels and localising power sources? If so you're not thinking very clearly. Please don't mistake my focused interest in biofuel for a lack of interest in other matters, but meaning no offense, there are other lists which cover those topics with less vitriol and more insight than I've seen displayed here. Now please tell us just who and what you're pointing the finger at. Since you asked . You're the list owner, so I guess that would be you. I would invite you to give some thought to just what mission you want this list to serve, and whether you want to impose a requirement that in order to participate folk most be (1) interested in the development of biofuels and (2) hate Bush's guts. I believe that there are lots of people who can advance the first criteria without having to pass the litmus test of the second. As list owner, you can do what you want, but it's important to ask yourself whether you bear something of a host's obligation to insure that any guest who comes to your list and posts in good faith is treated with civility. I'm not a troll. I've posted numerous times about issues having to do with the synthesis of methanol, a process which we're steadily working towards bringing on line here. I'm also not partisan; I don't care who wins and my personal feeling is that it's a damn shame they can't both lose. Talk which focuses on how the current administration is affecting biofuel issues is certainly a good topic of discussion for this list, but the list has of late gone way beyond that. When the ugliness gets so deep in here that even neutral fellow travelers are being attacked as enemies, it's time to do some soul searching. Perhaps you feel that this Bush-bashing truly does advance the cause of biofuels. I don't, and would really like to see the bandwidth focused more on biofuels. Ultimately, it's your list, and it's your call. Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Don't any of you play poker? / was Moral Dilemna
At 06:37 PM 2/22/04 -0600, you wrote: Walt, The problem that I have with you analogies is that they do not include the UN. They had involvement. They were dealing with the situation. I have no doubt that the UN would have taken decisive action, just as soon as they got around to paying their parking tickets. GW Bush said that they were irrelevant. Given their sterling record in Rwanda, perhaps he was just being polite. Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Weapons of Mass Deception
At 12:53 PM 2/23/04 +, someone lacking the stones to even sign his post wrote: I can see poker playin' Walt turning over command to his co-pilot, puttin' on his Stetson, stridin' past the bombadier to the hatch area, climbin' aboard the nuke and gettin' ready for judgement day. You're closer to the mark than you know. When my number came up in the draft, the government decided that because of my background in chemistry and physics, I should become one of the officers who activate tactical nukes in the field. As a result, I know first hand the soul searching that goes with that job. It's not something to make light of. Personally, I came to the conclusion that I couldn't trust the government to the degree necessary in order to be able to carry out an order to launch a nuke. In time, I was able to get a discharge, and left the country in order to help build a new one in the Caribbean. As an expatriot, I don't care who wins; I just think it's a shame they can't both lose. But what scares me more than the venality of the politicians on both sides of the isle is the inability of most people to look at the contest with any more insight than that exhibited by the World Wide Wrestling Federation's loyal viewers who have to paint everything in black and white, and how just can't seem to grasp the subtle concept of someone being an equal opportunity disbeliever. About 140 years ago, a group of federalists took over the government and waged a war of conquest which destroyed more than a million lives thereby establishing the principal of rule by conquest as the foundation for the federal government. If they could kill hundreds of thousands of Southrons, and they did, then it's not much of a stretch for them to continue on that path killing anyone else who gets in their way. I'm always bemused by Northerners who think that their side won that war; the winners were the military-industrial complex, which hasn't looked back since. I don't have a problem with folks who either support or oppose the current expedition on pragmatic grounds, since this is the sort of business which has been the focus of the federal government for more than a century. What does scare me is the folks who think it's morally okay for their side's President to blow people to pieces but somehow not okay for the other side's President to do the same. Those who were not publicly outraged over Clinton's pattern of bombing civilian targets should recognize that their silence opened this door, and to at least have the decency to not whine about Bush using the same justifications for following in Clinton's footsteps. These matters are way too serious for such partisan nonsense. Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Don't any of you play poker? / was Moral Dilemna
International diplomacy is a game of high stakes poker played with billion dollar chips and stacks of human lives. Saddam really enjoyed the prestige that came with playing in the high stakes game, and did everything he could to make the world think that he still had WMD, in part because that kept him at the table, and in part because of the prestige that gave him in that part of the world. It was a bluff because apparently he spent the money not on actual weapons programs, but on himself and his cronies, and when it came time to show his cards, all he held was a busted flush. What Saddam did was akin to the punk who pulls a fake gun on a cop. The punk will definitely succeed at getting the cop's attention, but no matter how convincing the fake gun looks, the outcome is not in doubt, and I for one can't blame the cop for blowing the fool away. Walt Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Don't any of you play poker? / was Moral Dilemna
At 12:24 PM 2/22/04 -0600, fred wrote: Hey Walt, Your analogy was only partially correct. He held a fake gun and the judge said that the cop would shoot unless he proved it was a fake gun. He began to show that he had no bullets and the cop shot him anyway. Not true. The cop knew that he had lots of bullets since (1) his father sold them to him, and (2) he'd already used them to kill lots of his neighbors. There wasn't any question that Saddam had WMD, the only question was what he'd done with them. Don't forget that there were inspectors allowed back into Iraq before the US went on it's little war. Time and time again. That's why Clinton, Gore, Kerry and company concluded that Saddam was noncompliant to a degree which justified the use of military force to resolve the issue. Perhaps another analogy will help. Two drunks are in a bar calling each other vile names. Drunk A pulls out a gun and shoots Drunk B. However improper it was for Drunk A to shoot Drunk B, it's quite clear that Drunk B was a fool to get into a heated argument with an armed drunk. Natural law tends to go hard on such fools. Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Methanol
At 09:05 AM 1/21/04 -0700, you wrote: Hey Walt, If you don't mind, I have a question. In an earlier post ( see below ), you talked about using electricity, in an organic solution, to generate H2 and CO. In the post you mention that you used sugar solution, have you tried it with Ethanol? No. I expect it would work, but I'd rather use something which wasn't a flammable. What I was wondering, would it be easier to convert biomass to Ethanol, then with electricity, convert the Ethanol to syngas? I can't see how. Our reason for making methanol is to be able to generate a liquid automotive fuel from renewable resources already available on our land. If one has ethanol, then why not just run one's car on that? Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Methanol
At 09:22 AM 1/19/04 -0800, Jeff wrote: I have been looking on how to make methanol out of wood. I have seen a couple of articles on how to make ethanol out of wood, but not methanol. If anybody could share some information on what would be involved and what it would take, please let me know. This is the part of the biofuel world that we're most interested in. Traditionally, methanol has been condensed from CO and H2 using a zinc oxide catalyst. The challenge was that the reaction was quite exothermic and it was very easy for the reaction to accelerate and burn up the catalyst. Common conversion rates per pass were between four and five percent. In the early 90's, they were able to get around that by grinding the catalyst into a powder and then suspending the catalyst as a slurry in mineral oil. The oil adsorbed the extra heat and allowed the reactor to increase the per pass yield to the range of twenty percent. Even better, from our point of view, was that the developers built the test reactor out of a six foot long piece of one inch diameter stainless steel pipe. Since then there have been even more exciting developments arising out of the work of Dr. Mahajan. He's developed a process which uses two catalysts dissolved in a solvent to get conversions in the ninety percent per pass range. That's significant because it makes the process much more forgiving as to the inclusion of inert gases in the feedstock since you can just burn off the unconverted feedgas. As a bonus, this catalyst is also much more forgiving regarding the CO2 content of the feedstock. The process is also a significant break through in that it can initiate at room temperature, and operates at between 100 and 150 psi. As you can imagine, we're pretty excited about these developments which we believe allow us to start down the road of building a micro-reactor for producing quantities of methanol sufficient to meet our automotive needs. Our current efforts are focused on feedstock issues. Here at the Windward site, we have a hundred acres of forest that we steward; grooming the forest generates substantial quantities of limbs and branches that we want to convert to methanol, but first we needed a way to process forest waste. We tracked down a heavy duty PTO mounted chipper that mounts on our main tractor and makes short work of branches and limbs, producing lovely little quarter-inch size bits of wood, but that's about as far as we got before winter shut us down. This coming year, we're looking forward to getting a woodgas generator on line using the chips. Once we're producing reliable quantities of CO and H2, we'll embark on building the reactor. Anyone who's interested in getting involved with this project is invited to check us out and make contact. http://www.windward.org/ with best wishes, Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Grey water alternative
At 09:46 AM 12/28/03 -0500, Caroline wrote: Perhaps a better way would be to raise the low flush requirement/design to 2 gallons or even better offer a grey water option (that used more water, thus flushed the first time) to homeowners. Just a note on our experience with installing a grey water system. I live as part of an intentional community that's committed to researching and developing sustainable systems. http://www.windward.org/ Our current main construction project is our new dining hall; it's fitted out with both black and grey septic systems. The grey system required twice as large a drain field as the black, something which ate up a lot of yard space and a goodly chunk of the budget. We do all the plumbing work ourselves, but if you were hiring it done, the expense of running double systems would also raise the cost of an installation considerably. The extra capital cost was okay, since a dozen people can afford to do things that a couple might not be able to fund, and we're committed to modeling effective systems, but it did impress upon us that there's a notable capital cost to these alternatives. Our impression is that it's more cost effective to set up a cistern to catch rainwater and use that for grey purposes. Most houses are already rain-collecting devices, so it's just a matter of routing rainspout feeds into a holding tank. It wouldn't be enough in all seasons, but it would provide a substantial portion of non-potable needs for much of the year. FWIW, our sheep don't like the taste of the lush grass grown with grey water. Walt Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] working on the methanol part
At 06:24 PM 12/1/03 +0900, Keith wrote: Main reason for us is that you can make ethanol yourself, but not methanol, or not easily anyway - not something a 3rd World villager can do. Just a quick note to say that we're committed to working on that part of the puzzle. Over the past decade, there have been some remarkable advances in methanol synthesis, and we're committed to creating micro models of those reactors that will enable folks to covert wood and paper waste directly into methanol for use as an automotive fuel. One such advance is the liquid process in which the zinc oxide catalyst is ground into a powder and then made into a slurry with mineral oil. Syngas (a mix of H2 and CO) is then bubbled up through the slurry, enjoying a conversion rate of around 20% per pass, which is way up from the standard 5%. The moment I got really excited about this was when I was reading the details on the pilot reactor was used to generate the engineering data used to build the first operating facility, and came across the detail that the test reactor they used to get those numbers was a six foot length of one inch diameter stainless steel pipe. Bingo - a micro-methanol reactor! Since that work was done, Dr. Mahajan ( of Brookhaven National Laboratory working on a DOE grant) has come up with what appears to be an even better route that uses two catalysts and methanol itself as the working solvent. This method not only works at room temperature (on up to about 150C) but at a mere 100 psi instead of between 750 and 1,000 psi required by the liquid process system. And even better, the reactor offers a 96% conversion rate, which means that you don't have to recycle the syngas through the reactor, and is vastly more tolerant of CO2 in the syngas. Another nifty patent to come down the pike involves using a 36 volt arc to decompose a solution of some organic in water producing syngas. Because of the presence of a carbon material, the plasma from the arc generates not a mix of H2 and O2, but rather H2 and CO. Whereas the former is explosive, the latter is not and can be stored for later conversion to methanol, which in turn can be used as an automotive fuel. We're looking at trying to make this work with a slurry of saw dust instead of the sugar solution mentioned in the patent. Anyway, that's what we're up to here in the Washington woods. Walt http://www.windward.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] New catalysis/methanol
At 10:14 AM 11/18/03 -0700, you wrote: Ethylene Oxide? Isn't that the stuff they used in fuel air bombs, because it has a tendency to spontaneously ignite when it reached the proper fuel/air ratio for combustion? Greg H. Sort of. As I recall, it's not that an air/EO mix will spontaneously ignite, just that it's very easy to ignite. If memory serves, FAE bombs have a time delay warhead that triggers the explosion after the EO has time to evaporate and disperse. Walt Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] New catalysis/methanol
At 09:39 PM 11/17/03 +, Mike wrote: The acid/base catalysis used for biofuel production looks like 1940's chemistry - 55 gallon drums, KOH, etc. The polymer industry, specifically polymer polyols to make urethanes used this type of chemistry. I know this because I worked at one of the top urethane suppliers RD process development group in the mid 90's. We were reacting ethylene oxide and propylene oxide to make polymer polyols, similar Sn2 chemistry. Boy that brings back memories of ethoxylating cellulose back in the 70's, back before the oil embargo and the price of ethylene oxide tripled. Is anyone on the list looking into post-WW II chemistry as a method for producing biofuels? Yup. We're very excited about building a micro plant to use developments made in the late 90's in the catalytic synthesis of methanol from H2 and CO. For those not familiar with the developments, the old way of condensing methanol on zinc oxide has been around for almost a century now. The problem with the old route is that the reaction is exothermic, and since you're reacting a gas on a solid catalyst, the reactor has to have a large thermal mass or else you're going to burn up your catalyst. In the late 90's, there was a break through in which they ground up the catalyst into a powder, and then made it into a slurry with mineral oil. That created a thermal buffer which allowed the reactor to be more efficient, and way easier to control. Google liquid process methanol for more info. Recently, there's been an additional break through developed by Mahajan in which two co-catalysts are used to synthesize methanol at 150C and 100 psi, with the added bonus that the reaction is much more forgiving of having CO2 in the feed gas. This process is so efficient that there's no need to run the feed gas through the reactor more than once. Another nifty development, albeit non-catalytic, involves striking an arc through a water/carbon slurry and generating a fairly clean form of syngas [H2 and CO]. Lots of exciting stuff happening. Walt Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] swimming in it
At 09:39 PM 10/27/03 -0500, you wrote: Glycerine that is. And I am not really sure what to do with it. Have you looked into using it to make soap? Glycerine based soaps are translucent and are easy enough to make that stores carry kits so that kids can make their own soap at home. Walt Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ybSovB/hP.FAA/3jkFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Handy alternative
At 01:10 PM 10/7/03 -0400, Martin wrote: It's just another way of creating hydrogen from water, while burning some carbon in the process creating CO2 What's the big deal? Doesn't have to be a big deal in order to serve as a handy alternative in some cases. Our focus here is on converting biomass to methanol, and one of the things that's hard to use up is sawdust. It appears from the patents that it would be possible to operate that system using a fluidized bed of sawdust and generate CO and H2 which would be both storable and compressible, something which a mix of O2 and H2 ain't. Given the new room temp co-catalyst methanol technology, having such a handy source for syngas adds a nice degree of flexibility. Especially in the set-up / break down/ try it again stage. I'm further intrigued with this because: 1) The process is not pressure dependent. It's easy enough to compress a liquid to 3,000 psi; it's a whole lot more difficult to compress a gas to that degree. By being able to build to the desired pressure within the reactor unit itself, you can get the compression needed to fill aluminum scuba tanks. I've got enough room under the bed of my pickup to easily mount eight 80 CF tanks, and that's a respectable amount of fuel which will get me down the road quite a ways before I run out and have to switch back to purchased fuel. The key there is that by getting the first 50 miles for free, and being able to switch back to propane when that runs out, I can cut down considerably on the total amount of fuel which needs to be purchased. 2) The patent indicates that the process uses 35 VDC and is interruptible, which makes it a good match for intermittent wind power sites. It's also a lot simpler design than what's needed for standard electrolysis, something which helps the small user considerably. While I appreciate the skepticism, and agree that there's a lot of snake oil out there, I'm more than ready to give the benefit of the doubt to articles that list actual patent numbers. with best wishes, Walt http://www.windward.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Handy alternative
At 05:01 AM 10/8/03 +0900, Keith wrote: Hello Walt All fair enough, just want to comment on this bit: Please do :-) For my part, I'm sceptical about these claims, but I'm not really negative about it, though many are, free energy is almost a blasphemy to some. With just cause. It's a bit like Heinlein's comment that When a man speaks of his honor, make him pay cash. I do believe there's an answer to the energy problem, a REAL answer, that remains to be found, but all the snake oil doesn't help at all, it discourages and hampers any real research. It's the scammers I'm against, not free energy per se. I'm with you, although I'm personally more concerned with folks using alternative energy technology in an attempt to with a Darwin Award. I don't mind it so much when fools loose their money; I'd just rather they didn't lose body parts since it gives people grounds to talk. So far the scepticism's been well-founded. Look at this one, for instance, from about 18 months ago - I haven't checked the links, no need, sadly: snip Again, we're on the same page, probably the one that bears Jefferson's comment that, those who wish to be ignorant and free, want what never was and never soon shall be. We had rather an interesting discussion here awhile back on what to do if you'd discovered a viable, cheap, energy source anyone could use anywhere, true energy independence - how would you handle it? How would you stop it getting bought out and locked up in a little box in back room somewhere, for instance? There's nothing more radical than a working model of a better way, so I would (we are) just get on with it, build a working model of the concept, and see that the information was as widely dispersed as possible. Here's an example from the current edition of our newsletter - http://www.windward.org/notes/notes63/wal63_b.htm 1635 - first of many English perpetual motion machine patents granted. - by 1903, 600 such patents had been granted. Free energy claimants love impressing people with patents (most people don't understand that a patent can't promise feasibility). http://www.phact.org/e/dennis4.html Well, a fool and his money are soon parted. [I do seem full of cliches these days, so I hope you'll bear with me :-) Still, I'm more respectful of someone's assertions when they've gone through the exercise of filing a patent application, and been successful, than I am for those who have secret methods that they don't dare off up for public scrutiny because you know who will scarf up their work and cheat them out of their just rewards. Pah! My perspective is that it's a grand, never-ending relay race in which we each get the privilege of running a lap or two. We stand on the shoulders of giants, and if we can advance the cause even a little bit, then that's great. Well, back to work. Thanks for the kind words and the frank thoughts. Walt http://www.windward.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Handy alternative
At 04:28 PM 10/7/03 -0400, you wrote: Hi Walt I appreciate your friendly response :) My pleasure. I'm enjoying following along. An electrolysis cell can compress the effluent as well, but it requires more energy. Agreed. I think you'll find that this cell requires more energy if you're compressing the output to 3,000 PSI. Agreed, but the use would be to consume excess wind energy and store it, so that's okay. Any chemical reaction has factors that cause it to occur or slow down. The ability for the gas to get away (the pressure) is a driving force for the reaction. Not sure I follow you there. As I recollect, in traditional electrolysis systems, an increase in either temperature pressure results in an increase in efficiency. Within limits, of course. 2) The patent indicates that the process uses 35 VDC and is interruptible, which makes it a good match for intermittent wind power sites. It's also a lot simpler design than what's needed for standard electrolysis, something which helps the small user considerably. An electrolysis cell is interruptable as well. I don't see how it is a lot simpler. Do you? I believe I do. Part of it has to do with the need to separate the H2 from the O2 in a traditional electrolysis cell, and this patent's alleged ability to generate a non-explosive fuel gas that does not require separation. Note: the technology described in the patent is significantly different from what's shown on the website. The second big advantage is that you could drink the solution used in the patented system (a sugar/water solution is described in the patent) whereas the electrolyte used in traditional electrolysis cells is 30% KOH, a solution which requires skilled operators, special equipment and a high degree of caution and training in order to build and/or maintain the cell in working order. A third advantage is that traditional cells require that you manage two gas output flows, one of which is coming off at twice the volume of the other, and that involves two storage tanks. It's tricky to maintain and equal pressure within the cells when one element is off-gassing at twice the flow rate of the other. A forth advantage, at least for us, is that we already have a good power supply to use to test out the process in the form of our hi-freq heli-arc welder. Although they don't mention using a hi-freq pulse to initiate the arc, that's how it's done in air. FWIW, I'm part of an intentional community located on 111 acres in the woods (south central Washington state), and I have enough of a problem getting people here to comprehend the details of our gravity feed water system. Not that my fellows here are idiots, in fact they're quite bright, but anything I can do to make potentially hazardous systems idiot proof is generally worth doing. Thanks for the interesting questions, Walt http://www.windward.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
