Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And is it good enough? The culture of the car is inherently destructive.
I am becoming increasingly troubled by the impact that the Culture of the Car has upon our environment, regardless of the energy source. Pollution reduction is of primary concern, but what about the infrastructure itself? Every time I leave the farm these days, I find myself agitated and depressed by the relentless destruction caused by the continual expansion of the infrastructure which is demanded and created by high-speed, non-human-powered vehicles. Im not being self-righteous hereI drive a conventional gasoline-powered Volkswagen JettaIm deeply disturbed by my own contribution to this destructive juggernaut which continues to consume farmland and open space at a staggering rate. Without high-speed vehicles of any sort, suburbs, strip-malls, parking lots, airports, industrial agriculture, corporate dominance, modern warfare, pollution, many of the banes of our modern world would be reduced or eliminated. I know its not going to happen, and for that reason I end up feeling futile and hopeless, and would rather just stay on my little sustainable farm growing food for my local market. But what if? What if we turned all of the roads and highways around, so that motorized vehicles were relegated to the shoulder, and the road itself was only open to human- and animal-powered transportation? And while were at it, what if we reduced the speed limit to about 25 mph? Wed commute a lot less, wed live closer to our workplaces, wed shop locally, wed have less suburban sprawl, wed have more villages, more parks and piazzas and fountains, wed be healthier people, wed eat more food (because wed be burning more caloriesbut wed have more land available for small farms to produce the extra food), wed have a cleaner planet, wed be less stressed, wed have less wars, less military infrastructure to support, lower taxes, less auto fatalities, less traffic cops, less automobile corporations, (but more walking shoe and bicycle corporations) I could go on and on, of course, but finally, Joni Mitchell could have her paradise back, and we could revert the parking lots into pastures, gardens, farmland, parks, piazzas, playgrounds, forests, and green spaces again George George Page www.seabreezefarm.net Vashon Island, WA USA -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Lao Telecom MailScanner with NOD32, and is believed to be clean. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And is it goodenough? The culture of the car is inherently destructive.
Hi George...my sentiments as well. Alas, Pandora's Box has long since been opened and we are utterly without hope of seeing anything like you describe in our lifetime. Perhaps when it all goes up in fire and somehow finds a way to sprout again, something of our dismal past will be remembered and never allowed to happen again...or be incapable of happening again. It doesn't matter. There are plenty of planets left in the great, grand universe of the Journey To Forever. Maybe something of ourselves will find a place that understands balance. Maybe not. For now I hug my wife and cry...and laugh too. And drive my car down another cement or asphalt road past another crack in the road where I see something green and alive sprouting as if to say, you might knock me down, but never out, if not here, over there. Mike DuPree - Original Message - From: George Page To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And is it goodenough? The culture of the car is inherently destructive. I am becoming increasingly troubled by the impact that the Culture of the Car has upon our environment, regardless of the energy source. Pollution reduction is of primary concern, but what about the infrastructure itself? Every time I leave the farm these days, I find myself agitated and depressed by the relentless destruction caused by the continual expansion of the infrastructure which is demanded and created by high-speed, non-human-powered vehicles. Im not being self-righteous hereI drive a conventional gasoline-powered Volkswagen JettaIm deeply disturbed by my own contribution to this destructive juggernaut which continues to consume farmland and open space at a staggering rate. Without high-speed vehicles of any sort, suburbs, strip-malls, parking lots, airports, industrial agriculture, corporate dominance, modern warfare, pollution, many of the banes of our modern world would be reduced or eliminated. I know its not going to happen, and for that reason I end up feeling futile and hopeless, and would rather just stay on my little sustainable farm growing food for my local market. But what if? What if we turned all of the roads and highways around, so that motorized vehicles were relegated to the shoulder, and the road itself was only open to human- and animal-powered transportation? And while were at it, what if we reduced the speed limit to about 25 mph? Wed commute a lot less, wed live closer to our workplaces, wed shop locally, wed have less suburban sprawl, wed have more villages, more parks and piazzas and fountains, wed be healthier people, wed eat more food (because wed be burning more caloriesbut wed have more land available for small farms to produce the extra food), wed have a cleaner planet, wed be less stressed, wed have less wars, less military infrastructure to support, lower taxes, less auto fatalities, less traffic cops, less automobile corporations, (but more walking shoe and bicycle corporations) I could go on and on, of course, but finally, Joni Mitchell could have her paradise back, and we could revert the parking lots into pastures, gardens, farmland, parks, piazzas, playgrounds, forests, and green spaces again George George Page www.seabreezefarm.net Vashon Island, WA USA -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Lao Telecom MailScanner with NOD32, and is believed to be clean. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
http://www.nrel.gov/ncpv/energy_payback.html The official numbers for photovoltaic energy payback from gvt. Also http://www.ecotopia.com/apollo2/pvlever.htm Some detailed info at http://www.homepower.com/files/pvpayback.pdf Actually I am glad to see that. Not so long ago pv was a net energy sink. I am most assuredly not a Luddite. Technology is our only hope.I googled the supercap company and it is gone. Really strange I think I posted the info on the electric boat yahoo group about a year ago. I will see if I can find it. Kirk-Forwarded Message-From: Ron Peacetree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Aug 7, 2006 4:50 PMTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: RESEND Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?I'm resending this, with some corrections, since it seems my original w/ this subject line sent at Aug 7, 2006 12:13 AM "disappeared" into the "InterNetBit Bucket". (There are no traces of it in the Biofuel list or archives despitethe fact that many posts with later time stamps have shown up).If you get 2 copies of this, I apologize in advance.=rMessage: 2Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 19:04:18 -0700 (PDT)From: Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?To: Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source.I've heard the argument. I don't buy it. We as a civilization are now dependent on the semi-conductor industry, and others,to keep the infrasatructure needed to service the 5+ billion human population onthis planet. Since I do not want to bet on me personally surviving a die-off of3/4 - 4/5 of humans, I'm not accepting the "no hi-tech" green solutionsas viable.PV cells last a long time after they've been made, and they can used as the surface of just about any flat or reasonably gently curved shape. Since they can be used more locally to the power demand, there is less, often no, transmissionissues (infrastructure, losses, environmental hazards... ...remember 765KV linesanyone?, etc). Getting high enough efficiencies at low enough cost and having a power storage systemto couple PV's to that has appropriate energy per unit mass and/or energy perunit volume characteristics for the desired PV application have always been the biggest obstacles to more common use of PV as a power solution.Thankfully, mobile computing is driving a revolution in portable energy storage.A123 Systems has a Li-ion battery with ~5x the efficiency of its more traditionalcounterpart: ~1KWhr/kg vs ~200Whr/kg. Firefly Energy has figured out how to improvetraditional lead-acid batteries from ~30Whr/kg to ~170Whr/kg using 1/3 - 1/2 thelead (...and ~1/5 the $$$ of NiMH batteries, let alone Li-ion ones). That impliesthe DIY Opel GT hybrid in the 1970's Mother Earth News now needs only 1/5 - 1/6 as much mass and volume in batteries. No matter what kind of batteries we aretalking about.The other side of the equation is the economics of PVs themselves. The Physicsworks. It's the Materials Science and Manufacturing issues that need to be addressed to make the theory practical consumer reality. And the multi-trilliondollar worldwide semi-conductor industry is spawning tangent technologies that lookto be capable of addressing those. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the hybridsare gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology such asSkeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have to muddle through. I don't know anything about Skeltons. Can you enlighten me regarding them? The worry I have always had with capacitor based energy storage systems is dangerouslightning-like discharge if something goes wrong (I've been in the vicinity of sudden discharge of 1/4 and 1/2 Farad caps. Very respect inducing.) Message: 3Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 22:36:57 -0400 (EDT)From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgMessage-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1Ron Peacetree wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc.EVs with current technology can already replace the traditional ICE-basedground and water vehicles in most situations. Exceptions include areaswhere there is no electrical grid, and long-haul trucking with tag-teamdrivers. To date cheap oil and lack of resolve have been the majorbarriers.Better energy storage systems and more efficient PVs would obviously increase thedomain of applications
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies.However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick "fill up" and puts into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies (i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy schemebeing discussed is now a possibility sincefast electrical storage could turn ourattention to stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle.- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But it would add a huge degree of efficiency,If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back and include capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker.Here's one person's expiriment: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.phpKirk McLoren wrote: The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have to muddle through. Kirk */Ron Peacetree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this "diesel/electric w/ PV assist" power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the "standard": the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in. For applications not as economically constrained, the "exotics" like Li-ion are of course an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of. PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it. With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the amount of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce the biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any of the current estimates. Doing this would not only be "green" and conserve our petro-diesel resources for uses that so far they are the only unique source for, such as certain plastics and medical products, It might also help Us avert the continuing escalation of violence in the Middle East that seems to be at the moment the most likely cause of WWIII. Where do I sign? And how do We get "our leaders" to pursue what seems to be an eminently logical course of action for anyone who loves their children and their planet? Ron Peacetree___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
I don't know as I'd throw out either one. Even one high eff. PV on a sunny day would help. Man, I almost called you in Conn./NY. You should have seen me in the parking lot at Shaws making fuel! -Weaver Michael Redler wrote: Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies. However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick fill up and puts into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies (i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.). I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy scheme being discussed is now a possibility since fast electrical storage could turn our attention to stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle. - Redler */Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: But it would add a huge degree of efficiency, If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back and include capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker. Here's one person's expiriment: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.php Kirk McLoren wrote: The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have to muddle through. Kirk */Ron Peacetree /* wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this diesel/electric w/ PV assist power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the standard: the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in. For applications not as economically constrained, the exotics like Li-ion are of course an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of. PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it. With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the amount of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce the biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any of the current estimates. Doing this would not only be green and conserve our petro-diesel resources for uses that so far they are the only unique source for, such as certain plastics and medical products, It might also help Us avert the continuing escalation of violence in the Middle East that seems to be at the moment the most likely cause of WWIII. Where do I sign? And how do We get our leaders to pursue what seems to be an eminently logical course of action for anyone who loves their children and their planet? Ron Peacetree ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Can anyone remember in the mid tolate sixties a conversion to flywheel energy in motor bikes and cars? The test bike was a tad hard to corner due to the Gyroscopic effects and did not "lay over" as a standard bike in cornering. Needed a hand brake to park as it would not lean onto a stand, again due to the gyroscopic effects. Just stood there in the parking lot up right and looking real strange with no stand down or visible sign of support. The car proto was a different kettle of fish with many types of rotors available. Can any one remember these as they were easy to re-charge just run onto a dyna tune set up so the rollers ran the rear wheel which put power back into the flywheel. The same as the car and bike on braking the power went back into the flywheels. Seems battery storage to produce a controlled rotary motion via various means is a slight loss comparedto maybe a rotary system already running just needing the control which the batteries would need as well. Not sure how far the idea got or why it was scrapped but seems not to beabout any more. The concept of the stored energy seemed good at the time. No PV cells needed. Doug - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies.However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick "fill up" and puts into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies (i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy schemebeing discussed is now a possibility sincefast electrical storage could turn ourattention to stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle.- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But it would add a huge degree of efficiency,If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back and include capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker.Here's one person's expiriment: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.phpKirk McLoren wrote: The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have to muddle through. Kirk */Ron Peacetree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this "diesel/electric w/ PV assist" power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the "standard": the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in. For applications not as economically constrained, the "exotics" like Li-ion are of course an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of. PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it. With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the amount of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce the biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Hello Doug and all, I remember looking into that technology years ago. The concept itself has a lot of merit but itwas a safety and materials nightmare. Imagine a very heavy flywheel spinning at very high RPM's. The energy storage capacity is great but what happens if something breaks. You get lots of high energy parts flying about capable of causing great damage or injury. Does anyone know if they have come up with new shielding. I imagine the bearings are much better today. Tom From: lres1 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 07:55:40 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? Can anyone remember in the mid tolate sixties a conversion to flywheel energy in motor bikes and cars? The test bike was a tad hard to corner due to the Gyroscopic effects and did not "lay over" as a standard bike in cornering. Needed a hand brake to park as it would not lean onto a stand, again due to the gyroscopic effects. Just stood there in the parking lot up right and looking real strange with no stand down or visible sign of support. The car proto was a different kettle of fish with many types of rotors available. Can any one remember these as they were easy to re-charge just run onto a dyna tune set up so the rollers ran the rear wheel which put power back into the flywheel. The same as the car and bike on braking the power went back into the flywheels. Seems battery storage to produce a controlled rotary motion via various means is a slight loss comparedto maybe a rotary system already running just needing the control which the batteries would need as well. Not sure how far the idea got or why it was scrapped but seems not to beabout any more. The concept of the stored energy seemed good at the time. No PV cells needed. Doug - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies.However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick "fill up" and puts into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies (i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy schemebeing discussed is now a possibility sincefast electrical storage could turn ourattention to stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle.- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But it would add a huge degree of efficiency,If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back and include capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker.Here's one person's expiriment: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.phpKirk McLoren wrote: The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have to muddle through. Kirk */Ron Peacetree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this "diesel/electric w/ PV assist" power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the "standard": the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in. For applications not as economically constrained, the "exotics" like Li-ion are of course an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of. PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it. With t
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
The best PV cells you can buy commercially (at a reasonable price) are about 20% efficient... The 42% efficient ones are only that efficient under concentration, and I think they currently cost about 100 times as much as the commercial ones. It'll be a few years (Probably still sooner than we get cold fusion going though). Even the 20% efficient ones are still more feasible to include on a car than a full field of canola plants and necessary oil processors to power a diesel engine, I still think that offboard energy collection is more feasible for the current time, whether we're talking about PV or biofuels. Your garage or your yard just has alot more surface area than your car. Consider that there are no natural living organisms that are directly solar powered that also move very fast. There just isn't enough power density in sunlight to support quick movement. Animals are able to move quickly via eating plants which have concentrated the energy in the sun. In the same way, if we want to create movement from sunlight, we have to concentrate it, either via batteries storing PV energy, or biofuels storing photosynthetic energy. Or by greatly reducing the power required to move, like the solar powered race cars. Perhaps we can develop cars like these, but consider that these are only about 1 or 2 horsepower, in a 400 lb car -- and most electric cars are at least 30HP in a 2,500lbs car... And as to the topic of this thread I think that bicycles is going to be the answer for everything except heavy hauling, which will revert back to biofueled rail. Anything else is just too energy intensive to be kept up long term from either a emissions, technological, or geopolitical perspective. Even if we get super quick charge long range electric cars which are charged from stationary sources, the energy use for cars as we know them is so insanely high (most people use more energy for their car than their entire house) that it just doesn't make much sense. The question is how long it will take us to be reduced to this carless state. Ironically, I think we will be carless sooner if we stick with SUV's, than if we did invest alot of energy into developing superefficient biodiesel/PV/plug in hybrids. ZekeOn 8/7/06, Tom Irwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Doug and all, I remember looking into that technology years ago. The concept itself has a lot of merit but itwas a safety and materials nightmare. Imagine a very heavy flywheel spinning at very high RPM's. The energy storage capacity is great but what happens if something breaks. You get lots of high energy parts flying about capable of causing great damage or injury. Does anyone know if they have come up with new shielding. I imagine the bearings are much better today. Tom From: lres1 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 07:55:40 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? Can anyone remember in the mid tolate sixties a conversion to flywheel energy in motor bikes and cars? The test bike was a tad hard to corner due to the Gyroscopic effects and did not lay over as a standard bike in cornering. Needed a hand brake to park as it would not lean onto a stand, again due to the gyroscopic effects. Just stood there in the parking lot up right and looking real strange with no stand down or visible sign of support. The car proto was a different kettle of fish with many types of rotors available. Can any one remember these as they were easy to re-charge just run onto a dyna tune set up so the rollers ran the rear wheel which put power back into the flywheel. The same as the car and bike on braking the power went back into the flywheels. Seems battery storage to produce a controlled rotary motion via various means is a slight loss comparedto maybe a rotary system already running just needing the control which the batteries would need as well. Not sure how far the idea got or why it was scrapped but seems not to beabout any more. The concept of the stored energy seemed good at the time. No PV cells needed. Doug - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies.However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick fill up and puts into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies ( i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy schemebeing discussed is now a possibility sincefast electrical storage could turn ourattention to stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle. - RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
The state of the art in flywheel storage is I think U of Texas. They have a railgun project there and have developed a "compulsator"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Gun The United States military is funding railgun experiments. At the University of Texas at Austin Institute for Advanced Technology, military railguns capable of delivering tungsten armor piercing bullets with kinetic energies of nine million joules have been developed [1]. Nine million joules is enough energy to deliver 2 kg of projectile at 3 km/s - at that velocity a tungsten or other dense metal rod could penetrate a tank. the US Navy plans to deploy railguns with ranges over 250 miles (400 km) on naval vessels as early as 2011.(1) http://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/Railgun%20Pulsed%20Power%20Program.html the compulsator stores 40 MJ and can deliver 15 shots without recharging the rotor. The earlier contractual goal , which they met, was 10 shots in 1 second.(mid 1980's) As you see inertial storage has come a long ways. http://www.utexas.edu/research/cem/images/PR277.pdf#search='compulsator%20kg.'Still inadequate to power a car though 40 megajoules is only about 11 kilowatt hours. Kirklres1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can anyone remember in the mid tolate sixties a conversion to flywheel energy in motor bikes and cars?The test bike was a tad hard to corner due to the Gyroscopic effects and did not "lay over" as a standard bike in cornering. Needed a hand brake to park as it would not lean onto a stand, again due to the gyroscopic effects. Just stood there in the parking lot up right and looking real strange with no stand down or visible sign of support.The car proto was a different kettle of fish with many types of rotors available.Can any one remember these as they were easy to re-charge just run onto a dyna tune set up so the rollers ran the rear wheel which put power back into the flywheel. The same as the car and bike on braking the power went back into the flywheels. Seems battery storage to produce a controlled rotary motion via various means is a slight loss comparedto maybe a rotary system already running just needing the control which the batteries would need as well. Not sure how far the idea got or why it was scrapped but seems not to beabout any more.The concept of the stored energy seemed good at the time. No PV cells needed.Doug - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, August 07, 2006 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies.However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick "fill up" and puts into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies (i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy schemebeing discussed is now a possibility sincefast electrical storage could turn ourattention to stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle.- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But it would add a huge degree of efficiency,If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back and include capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker.Here's one person's expiriment: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.phpKirk McLoren wrote: The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have to muddle through. Kirk */Ron Peacetree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this "diesel/electric w/ PV assist" power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the "standard": the lead-acid battery (spin of
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
But it would add a huge degree of efficiency, If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back and include capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker. Here's one person's expiriment: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.php Kirk McLoren wrote: The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have to muddle through. Kirk */Ron Peacetree [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this diesel/electric w/ PV assist power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the standard: the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in. For applications not as economically constrained, the exotics like Li-ion are of course an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of. PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it. With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the amount of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce the biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any of the current estimates. Doing this would not only be green and conserve our petro-diesel resources for uses that so far they are the only unique source for, such as certain plastics and medical products, It might also help Us avert the continuing escalation of violence in the Middle East that seems to be at the moment the most likely cause of WWIII. Where do I sign? And how do We get our leaders to pursue what seems to be an eminently logical course of action for anyone who loves their children and their planet? Ron Peacetree ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://pa.yahoo.com/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=36035/*http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/%20 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Mike Weaver wrote: But it would add a huge degree of efficiency, If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back and include capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker. Here's one person's expiriment: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.php Yes, that's the vehicle I have seen around here. (Note to Zeke, Steve also has (or had) an Electrek.) I have a lot of respect for Steve, I have met him a couple of times. I do want to give him credit for actually doing something. But I still think the panels should be on a building roof, where positioning can be optimized, not on the car. Noel Perrin and others have reached the same conclusion regarding solar charging of electric cars and tractors. My boat is an exceptional case as the boat at the dock has much better solar exposure than the cottage roof, which is nestled into a forest of tall pines. Note in the article that the panels are only effective on his vehicle when the vehicle is operating. At least for my vehicles, that would be a small fraction of available daylight hours. There are some serious issues associated with potential over-charging, or determining how much to undercharge during operation to leave headroom in the batteries for potential solar charging, also allowing that clouds could roll in and negate the expected gain. All figures provided are based on modelling, and theoretical work. No actual results as yet (my experience as well when I last saw the vehicle at a local eco-show). I don't see anything that suggests the modeling allows for shaded time, impact on aero drag from the panels (present at all times, not just when panels are producing) or angle of incidence loss due to horizontal mounting of panels. Capacitors are high-efficiency, high power, and low energy per unit weight and volume. They make sense if mated with a high energy, low power energy source, such as most fuel cells (e.g., the Honda FCX), or certain battery technologies (e.g., 1970s era aluminum-air). Potentially also a good match to regenerative braking (let's not start that again). Darryl McMahon ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
The article statesThe 300 VDC output of the solar subsystem is attached to the switched side of the original Prius battery, so the PV battery cannot recharge the NiMH while the ignition is off. The PV system can inject a maximum of up to 2 amps continuously into the battery while the ignition is on. [...] The decision not to charge the hybrid when the car is off was a pragmatic choice, given the financial and time constraints of his project. Among other issues, there would need to be a thorough analysis to determined the optimal PV-NiMH energy flow/charge relationship. ---The article is conjecture. It has NOT been demonstrated as per the confession above. Solar cells are sensitive to orientation. They are also sensitive to occlusion, ie dirt or bird droppings or whatever. At least an inclined array is somewhat self cleaning and develops full power. Note the article said a maximum of 2A ([EMAIL PROTECTED] =600 watts) Again the photo and description says 270watts of pv.Quite a trick to get 600 watts out of 270.I wouldnt use this article as an example of anything but innacuracy. I still assert the cells would be far better off at the garage roof or somewhere where oriented.And the dollars spent probably better invested in a biofuel setup.Kirk Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But it would add a huge degree of efficiency,If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back and include capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker.Here's one person's expiriment: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.phpKirk McLoren wrote: The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have to muddle through. Kirk */Ron Peacetree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this "diesel/electric w/ PV assist" power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the "standard": the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in. For applications not as economically constrained, the "exotics" like Li-ion are of course an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of. PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it. With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the amount of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce the biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any of the current estimates. Doing this would not only be "green" and conserve our petro-diesel resources for uses that so far they are the only unique source for, such as certain plastics and medical products, It might also help Us avert the continuing escalation of violence in the Middle East that seems to be at the moment the most likely cause of WWIII. Where do I sign? And how do We get "our leaders" to pursue what seems to be an eminently logical course of action for anyone who loves their children and their planet? Ron Peacetree ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Music Unlimited
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Correction. The bio-diesel engines in question do not get ~2 HP per =liter=, They get ~2 HP per =pound= or ~1-2 HP per 10cc. I am. of course, hoping that a constant rpm bio-diesel engine can be designed that does even better than this. :-) Ron ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this diesel/electric w/ PV assist power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the standard: the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in. For applications not as economically constrained, the exotics like Li-ion are of course an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of. PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it. With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the amount of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce the biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any of the current estimates. Doing this would not only be green and conserve our petro-diesel resources for uses that so far they are the only unique source for, such as certain plastics and medical products, It might also help Us avert the continuing escalation of violence in the Middle East that seems to be at the moment the most likely cause of WWIII. Where do I sign? And how do We get our leaders to pursue what seems to be an eminently logical course of action for anyone who loves their children and their planet? Ron Peacetree ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Let's build one. I used to be a mechanic, Zeke can tell use how to do the PV stuff - all we need is a garage, a wrecked Prius for the drive train and a suitable body. I'm near DC. Who has a garage? I have tools and plenty of friends in the car repair business. If we all chip in a few hundred we could do it. -Mike Weaver Ron Peacetree wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this diesel/electric w/ PV assist power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the standard: the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in. For applications not as economically constrained, the exotics like Li-ion are of course an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of. PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it. With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the amount of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce the biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any of the current estimates. Doing this would not only be green and conserve our petro-diesel resources for uses that so far they are the only unique source for, such as certain plastics and medical products, It might also help Us avert the continuing escalation of violence in the Middle East that seems to be at the moment the most likely cause of WWIII. Where do I sign? And how do We get our leaders to pursue what seems to be an eminently logical course of action for anyone who loves their children and their planet? Ron Peacetree ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have to muddle through. KirkRon Peacetree [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread...A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc.(Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this "diesel/electric w/ PV assist" power supply idea could satisfy.)A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm.The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight.Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the "standard": the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in. For applications not as economically constrained, the "exotics" like Li-ion are of course an option.However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of.PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs.This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it.With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the amount of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce the biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any of the current estimates.Doing this would not only be "green" and conserve our petro-diesel resources for uses that so far they are the only unique source for, such as certain plastics and medical products, It might also help Us avert the continuing escalation of violence in the Middle East that seems to be at the moment the most likely cause of WWIII.Where do I sign? And how do We get "our leaders" to pursue what seems to be an eminently logical course of action for anyone who loves their children and their planet?Ron Peacetree___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Ron Peacetree wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. EVs with current technology can already replace the traditional ICE-based ground and water vehicles in most situations. Exceptions include areas where there is no electrical grid, and long-haul trucking with tag-team drivers. To date cheap oil and lack of resolve have been the major barriers. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this diesel/electric w/ PV assist power supply idea could satisfy.) Aircraft are a viable niche for solar power - the wings can be made of solar panels, and they can frequently travel above much cloud cover and ground haze. There are some solar electric aircraft already, and lithium-based batteries create a fairly lightweight electrical storage capability. Lithium batteries are making huge inroads in the model R/C aircraft arena. With time, and as these batteries are scaled up, I expect to see more electric and electric/hybrid aircraft. A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the standard: the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in. For applications not as economically constrained, the exotics like Li-ion are of course an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of. Disagree. Fuel cells have poor efficiency compared to virtually any battery, and to date any robust storage system is heavy. In the 1990s, Solectria built a vehicle called the Sunrise that traveled about 600 km on a charge, using an early version of the NiMH battery. Li-ion have a much better energy to weight ratio. For more on hydrogen, see http://www.econogics.com/en/heconomy.htm PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. I strongly recommend that the solar cells not be placed on the vehicle. Cars spend far too much time in shadow, and are almost never optimally positioned to maximize the solar capture. Solar panels add to the vehicle weight, and frequently to the aerodynamic drag. Better, IMO, to put the panels on a stationary building roof or ground-array, and position them to optimize the amount of power they generate. Put it into the grid, and charge the vehicles from the grid. (N.B. I own several electric vehicles, including one car with a solar panel on it to maintain the accessory battery, and a solar-electric boat where the solar panel is the primary charging source. That boat has the panel mounted to optimize collection given how it is normally docked - western exposure.) Last time I checked on 30%+ efficient PVs, they were significantly more expensive per delivered watt-hour than the conventional commercial units in the 8-12% efficiency range. Do you information that this has changed? Can the 42% efficient devices deliver the same or more watt-hours per dollar than the current commercial devices? Suppose we can put 4 square metres of panels on a private road vehicle (generous for most sedans). Suppose this vehice has 42% efficiency, and six hours a day of full sun equivalent, and an average angle of incidence of 40%, resulting in a 30% degradation from the perfect angle. This set of panels, in no cloud, no haze, no pollution, never in shadow, can get about (.7 angle derating x .42 efficency x 4m2 x 1 kW/m2 x 6 hrs) 7 kWh per day. At 3 miles per kWh (pretty good, about what my electric Porsche 914 2-seater can manage), that's a daily range of 21 miles per day. About half of what the average vehicle travels (based on weekday use, 12,000 miles per year). You will get at least 50% more electricity by mounting the solar panels so their positioning can be optimized (more sun-hours, less reflected light, less time in shadow). This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it. Look into plug-in hybrid electric vehicles (PHEVs), such as Energy CS, Calcars or HyMotion. Look into the history of the PNGV program. With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for bio-diesel production
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
You could also take a look at these: http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/proceedings/01/carbon_seq/5a4.pdf http://www.greenfuelonline.com/news/IECR.pdf They're listed under Resources on the same Green Car Congress page. Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Cell line? I don't follow. This is done with concentrators, fiber-optics and essentially hydroponics. There are no solar cells. You did look at the link that was offered, yes? http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
first one doesnt display and 2nd one is discussion of scrubbing and algal growth. No reference to the vunderalgae that is an oilcrop.KirkAppal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You could also take a look at these:http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/proceedings/01/carbon_seq/5a4.pdfhttp://www.greenfuelonline.com/news/IECR.pdfThey're listed under "Resources" on the same Green Car Congress page.Todd SwearingenKirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote:1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!?Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
cell line as in living cells. Algae usually are joined chains of single cells. They arent higher structures like leaves and stalks and flowers. They usually convert sunlight and nutrients into sugar and fiber. I dont know any that are oil producers like the seeds of higher plants. Are you sure oil isnt wishful thinking?KirkAppal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Cell line? I don't follow. This is done with concentrators, fiber-optics and essentially hydroponics. There are no solar cells.You did look at the link that was offered, yes?http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.htmlTodd SwearingenKirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote:1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote:WHAT!?!?!?!?!?Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
any cell has a membrane which is comprised of a lipid bilayer, therefore anything alive makes lipids. Certain varieties do produce fairly lipid content. Here is a cite claiming 40% dry weight. http://www.energybulletin.net/1330.html Kirk McLoren wrote: cell line as in living cells. Algae usually are joined chains of single cells. They arent higher structures like leaves and stalks and flowers. They usually convert sunlight and nutrients into sugar and fiber. I dont know any that are oil producers like the seeds of higher plants. Are you sure oil isnt wishful thinking? Kirk */Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Cell line? I don't follow. This is done with concentrators, fiber-optics and essentially hydroponics. There are no solar cells. You did look at the link that was offered, yes? http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy /* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Sweet. Interesting the author of referenced article doesnt see a difference between biofuel using carbon already in the atmosphere vs releasing sequestered via petro diesel. So how do we extract the lipid? Solvent? Looks like the energy problem is solved.Kirkbob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: any cell has a membrane which is comprised of a lipid bilayer, therefore anything alive makes lipids. Certain varieties do produce fairly lipid content. Here is a cite claiming 40% dry weight.http://www.energybulletin.net/1330.htmlKirk McLoren wrote: cell line as in living cells. Algae usually are joined chains of single cells. They arent higher structures like leaves and stalks and flowers. They usually convert sunlight and nutrients into sugar and fiber. I dont know any that are oil producers like the seeds of higher plants. Are you sure oil isnt wishful thinking? Kirk */Appal Energy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Cell line? I don't follow. This is done with concentrators, fiber-optics and essentially hydroponics. There are no solar cells. You did look at the link that was offered, yes? http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy /* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd SwearingenKeith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae.Todd Swearingen \Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006?:-)Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation.Kirk*/Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it wouldbe an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanolwould require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa towardnothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import.Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farmland is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuringout what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gastanks.Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regularcars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we canshrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol fromsugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in theirfuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuelvehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing atleast one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Kirk McLoren wrote: Sweet. Interesting the author of referenced article doesnt see a difference between biofuel using carbon already in the atmosphere vs releasing sequestered via petro diesel. that's because it is Patzak, one of Pimental's fellow travelers. So how do we extract the lipid? Solvent? that is the most efficient process I would think. I wonder if you might get good yields with sonication to disrupt the cell membranes, and high pressure to separate out the liquid from solid fractions of the algae? As pointed out, this is still a long, long way from exploitation. Looks like the energy problem is solved. not really, more energy available will just translate to bigger cars, faster highways, bigger homes, etc. Ultimately at the expense of everything else on the planet. Kirk */bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: any cell has a membrane which is comprised of a lipid bilayer, therefore anything alive makes lipids. Certain varieties do produce fairly lipid content. Here is a cite claiming 40% dry weight. http://www.energybulletin.net/1330.html Kirk McLoren wrote: cell line as in living cells. Algae usually are joined chains of single cells. They arent higher structures like leaves and stalks and flowers. They usually convert sunlight and nutrients into sugar and fiber. I dont know any that are oil producers like the seeds of higher plants. Are you sure oil isnt wishful thinking? Kirk */Appal Energy /* wrote: Cell line? I don't follow. This is done with concentrators, fiber-optics and essentially hydroponics. There are no solar cells. You did look at the link that was offered, yes? http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature. Kirk */Appal Energy /* wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Keith, So in short Todd, as with the last 25 years, there is no biodiesel from algae right now on Planet Earth, but hey! it's just around the corner (December next year this time). Ho-hum, yawn... You can ho-hum-hokum-yawn all you wish. What good things are there that you can think of that once weren't and now are? And what of the biodiesel from New Zealand sewage treatment ponds? Or Dave Bayless' working proto? In general, doesn't a person or society have to crawl before they can run? Algae isn't air powered cars, magnets, or little blue pills pedaled by snake oil sales persons. It's a reality that's being worked on right now while you're yawning, despite an entire herd of market forces that have kept it at a snail's pace up to this point - no different than solar and wind which have faced the same roadblocks the past thirty years. Just out of curiosity, where are those two industries going now? And with the increasing cost of fossil fuels, both environmental and economical, they've become competitive in increasing instances, in spite of the ongoing corporate welfare (subsidies) payed out to the likes of nuclear, coal, oil and gas. So Keith, what are you suggesting with the Ho-hum, yawn...? Do you think we should just give up? Throw in the towel? Let corporate dinos strip the world of all it's buffers and watch society at large die a miserable, writhing end? Thank you, but no. At least not for me. As for Are you really thinking in the same corporatist and/or guzzle-addicted mindset that sees overall US demand as something that can be replaced, or sustained in any way? The answer is no, and you know that without asking the question. Unfortunately you're not waiting for the unneeded answer, as your next remark implies... How do you figure it - current growth trends in consumption extrapolated to 2020, like the US DoE? LOL! Dream on I've expressed myself often enough throughout my existence (not to mention on this list) that the candle needs to be burnt from both ends (more if it were possible). Anything less only provides a slower anhilation at the hands of collective stupidity, carelessness, selfishness or whatever. Apparently, or so it would seem, you think I've sold out somewhere along the line? If so, I wonder how you could come to such a conclusion? I can tell you this, however. No different than all the corporate fuel elitists, it's been self-evident for years that oilseeds and WVO will put but a small dent in the petroleum distillate fuel oil market, even if demand were somehow halved, whether by overnight magic or economic and environmental necessity, even if all the rain forests were stripped for palm oil (Can you spell destruction?) and all the jatropha in the world were put towards fuel. You know full well that the oilseed market is going to bottom out soon, more probably than not after next year's harvests as biodiesel demand grows and feed meal gluts rise. With plants being built at a jack rabbit pace at the moment, at least in the US, and demand for oil feed stocks steadily increasing rapidly, the inevitable result will be the market correcting itself, with farmers finding a production plateau that is sustainable. That is unless Congress (as far as the US goes) continues to offer the corporate welfare dollar to blenders. With that knowledge firmly in hand, what is it that you suppose will fill the role under the substitution principle? Soy got it's windfall. Now it's time to stabilize an industry, and try to do that before the oilseed industry faces a glut, or at least meet that window as quickly as possible. If feed stocks such as algae or similar such are not put into play as fast as possible, the result will be at first a lull in the biodiesel industry for several years, and at worst a final curtain pulled on this play called life. The end of the human race will be that it will eventually die of civilization. Ralph Waldo Emerson Well, I don't much consider what we have on hand at present to be but a remote and horribly distorted facsimile of civilization. And I would strongly encourage you to take a longer look at algae's role in carbon recycling and efforts towards carbon neutrality. Or are you thinking that getting an extra 45% efficiency out of a btu is a wasted effort? Have you considered how many commercial boilers, kilns, furnaces and ovens could be integrated with bioreactors and biodiesel production? And given the opportunity, would you seize it, or would you shun it, thinking that it was just another method to keep lining the pockets of big money interests? Perhaps so called geologic sequestration (waste) is a more logical approach than one of Max Utility? I think not. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: So in short Todd, as with the last 25 years, there is no biodiesel from algae right now on Planet Earth, but hey! it's just around the corner (December next year this time). Ho-hum, yawn...
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
You've got to read between the lines. And it helps a little to know how far apart they're placing the vertical mesh. You don't really think that anyone would sequester carbon via algae production and then just kinda' forget to do something with the oil, do you? Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: I didnt see mention of 10^5 gallons of oil. I did see mention of scrubbing stack gasses. Kirk */Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Actually that's a conservative value. See http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html and calculate what you come up with in square feet under roof with a 30' eave. The proto's already proven the values. All that remains is to upscale. Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: I think that 100,000 is still vaporware. No purchaseable cultures of algusunobtainius ;) Kirk */D. Mindock /* wrote: Algae does seem to be a no brainer. So why isn't more impetus for it? We might even be able to harvest those algae blooms and make biodiesel from it. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Keith, Right Todd, more big-central stuff, with a cast of millions (of dollars) Being cynical is fine and quite often healthy. Being oblivious to what surrounds one is often to one's own and other's detriment. There are over 15,000 commercial boilers in the US. We're not speaking of just hot water to take showers, but multi-million btu boilers with thousands of tons of CO2 going out the stack and to no other use than more global warming. Now that's a jolly happy prospect, yes? (Not!!!) And that doesn't even touch the tip of the iceberg. The number fails to include industrial kilns, furnaces and ovens. Ever seen the enormous flares off a steel mill? More often than not, no co-gen. No nothing. Just waste. Do you think that maybe we should just let business be conducted as usual, or do you think that perhaps at least one responsible approach is to show the greedy, capitalist pigs that they can make a profit by doing something that reduces global warming? This isn't advocacy of consumption, not at present levels or increased. Nor is it an acceptance of the mis-programming that stuff is where the joy of life is to be found. It is, on the other hand, an acceptance of the fact that something has to be done to get these damn fools to stop their waste and the inevitable destruction, even if it means that some or many will try to greenwash the effort. If they can be induced by profit to make an environmental gain? Would you prefer that they do nothing instead? So just for grins and giggles, how about we divide 15,000 by, oh, let's see..., maybe 50 states? That works out to be 300 bio-reactors/biodiesel plants per state, or approximately one plant every radius a skosh less than nine miles. (3,539,224 sq miles in the US.) Seems to me that were it a perfect world, that would come very close to being micro-regional. Unfortunately, commercial kilns, boilers, furnaces and ovens aren't necessarily spaced in such a fashion, but you surely get the gist of the matter. And it doesn't mean that micro-regional plants using WVO or SVO have to be abolished just because larger industry might take on a larger share of biodiesel production. It's a very large world and the primary focus/purpose is to prevent it from being destroyed, not necessarily to dry up the cash flow of the wealthy, albeit not an extremely unattractive notion. no interest whatsoever for local projects, Please see above... and, as yet, no production Well? As of yet I'm not fifty. But short of calling the hand of a gun-toting card cheat in the middle of a poker match, it's more than a fair bet that I'll get there. We didn't use to have steel mills and coal-fired power plants either. Funny how things transpire, both good, bad and in between. They often need the permission of neither of us. should we perhaps sell everything so we can invest in the new fossil-fuel plants it will help to paint green too? Did I say everything? I thought not. Would you rather a barge load of green paint or the inevitable consequences of continuing global warming and in most probability global destruction, or at least the destruction of human un-civilization as we know it? Personally? I'd rather forestall the latter for as long as possible. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: Tom, Per horizontal acre, with the algae growing vertically. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html Bookmark that page and think about buying stock in the manufacturers of the technology. That is if you have all your credit cards payed off first. Todd Swearingen Right Todd, more big-central stuff, with a cast of millions (of dollars), no interest whatsoever for local projects, and, as yet, no production - should we perhaps sell everything so we can invest in the new fossil-fuel plants it will help to paint green too? Best Keith Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd and all, Do you mean acre-foot of seawater? Do you have any idea how much phosphorus would be required for growing this kind of mass even if the algae can fix atmospheric nitrogen? Let me diplomatic and say this seems to be an overestimation. Tom *From:* Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 01 Aug 2006 02:46:51 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Well, Todd Keith, So in short Todd, as with the last 25 years, there is no biodiesel from algae right now on Planet Earth, but hey! it's just around the corner (December next year this time). Ho-hum, yawn... You can ho-hum-hokum-yawn all you wish. Indeed I can. What good things are there that you can think of that once weren't and now are? :-) What good things were dreamed of that never happened because they were just pie in the sky? And what of the biodiesel from New Zealand sewage treatment ponds? We hear of it, and then we hear no more. So far. Anyone in NZ running their motor on it yet, can you buy it at the pump there yet? Just around the corner, is it? Or Dave Bayless' working proto? In general, doesn't a person or society have to crawl before they can run? Yes, and then they learn to walk, like babies, in that order - and the stage between crawling and running involves learning how to bounce, until you learn to keep your feet on the ground. Anyway I think we can run pretty well even without the undoubted blessings of oil-gushing algae wells, or is it chimneys or whatever. People and their societies that is. Algae isn't air powered cars, magnets, or little blue pills pedaled by snake oil sales persons. It's a reality that's being worked on right now A reality that's being worked on right now?? while you're yawning, Well it's boring, it's a lousy movie anyway and we've seen it so often already. despite an entire herd of market forces that have kept it at a snail's pace up to this point - no different than solar and wind which have faced the same roadblocks the past thirty years. Yes it is different from solar or wind - solar power exists, wind power exists, they're both ready-to-use renewable energy technologies with a long in-use track record behind them. Why don't you compare algae with hydrogen and fuel cells rather? Still not a good comparison, both of them exist too, along with all the delusions about them - whatever their realities, they're all three the dreams of guzzlers confronted with cold turkey. Why not compare algae with the free-energy over-unity scams? More in common in their shared lack of existence. People who sneer at the over-unity true-believers get told just the same things you're telling me. Just out of curiosity, where are those two industries going now? And with the increasing cost of fossil fuels, both environmental and economical, they've become competitive in increasing instances, in spite of the ongoing corporate welfare (subsidies) payed out to the likes of nuclear, coal, oil and gas. So Keith, what are you suggesting with the Ho-hum, yawn...? Do you think we should just give up? Throw in the towel? Let corporate dinos strip the world of all it's buffers and watch society at large die a miserable, writhing end? That seems to be rather a strange conclusion to reach. I'll take it that it has more to do with you than with me, since it obviously has nothing to do with me. I see no contradiction between vision and keeping your feet on the ground. Are your feet on the ground? What we have is rhetoric, but you don't answer the questions. Let's look at the last question you answered - here's the question: Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? Here's your answer: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Maybe: Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Not on the ground. Let's look at some of the questions you didn't answer: Small-scale local-level oil-from-algae production might have its appeal in some circumstances (the city-farm setting eg, to supplement waste supplies), but existing algae types don't seem to cut it, it would probably mean using GMOs, with all the due reservations about that, and problems remain with extraction (who needs heptane) and with drying the stuff out in the first place without wasting a lot of time, effort and energy. Instead we get the proposal that these million-buck high-tech projects with no production as yet and no track record are somehow akin to micro-regional local energy projects. What next, more sneers at the homebrew mindset - aka Appropriate Technology? Or are these also suitable micro-regional energy projects, do you think? http://www.savoiapower.com/nuclear.html I also asked this: Imagine a few filters on some of our nations greenest (as in algae laden) streams and rivers, with an oil press on the end of the pto. Just imagine if it were more than just imagination - can you point us at any actual oil that has actually been produced from algae this way? Well, can you? I said: Unless you want to argue with this: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch That's what you're going to have to do if you want to continue to insist the oil-from-algae vaporware's made
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
We might even be able to harvest those algae blooms and make biodiesel from it. Or begin remediation and interception projects to harvest algae? Lake Apopka in Florida used to be the world's best bass fishing (before mercury bioaccumation manifested itself as a reality). People flocked there from all over the world. Or at least those in the know and enough pocket cash for the jet fuel or steamship junket. Now it's just a repository for ag runoff from muck farms with an 8-10 foot algae bottom and barely the smallest minnow, plus a few gators. Imagine a few filters on some of our nations greenest (as in algae laden) streams and rivers, with an oil press on the end of the pto. Todd Swearingen D. Mindock wrote: Algae does seem to be a no brainer. So why isn't more impetus for it? We might even be able to harvest those algae blooms and make biodiesel from it. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Actually that's a conservative value. See http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html and calculate what you come up with in square feet under roof with a 30' eave. The proto's already proven the values. All that remains is to upscale. Todd Swearingen Kirk McLoren wrote: I think that 100,000 is still vaporware. No purchaseable cultures of algusunobtainius ;) Kirk */D. Mindock [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Algae does seem to be a no brainer. So why isn't more impetus for it? We might even be able to harvest those algae blooms and make biodiesel from it. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman1/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Tom, Per horizontal acre, with the algae growing vertically. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html Bookmark that page and think about buying stock in the manufacturers of the technology. That is if you have all your credit cards payed off first. Todd Swearingen Right Todd, more big-central stuff, with a cast of millions (of dollars), no interest whatsoever for local projects, and, as yet, no production - should we perhaps sell everything so we can invest in the new fossil-fuel plants it will help to paint green too? Best Keith Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd and all, Do you mean acre-foot of seawater? Do you have any idea how much phosphorus would be required for growing this kind of mass even if the algae can fix atmospheric nitrogen? Let me diplomatic and say this seems to be an overestimation. Tom *From:* Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 01 Aug 2006 02:46:51 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
We might even be able to harvest those algae blooms and make biodiesel from it. Or begin remediation and interception projects to harvest algae? Lake Apopka in Florida used to be the world's best bass fishing (before mercury bioaccumation manifested itself as a reality). People flocked there from all over the world. Or at least those in the know and enough pocket cash for the jet fuel or steamship junket. Now it's just a repository for ag runoff from muck farms with an 8-10 foot algae bottom and barely the smallest minnow, plus a few gators. Imagine a few filters on some of our nations greenest (as in algae laden) streams and rivers, with an oil press on the end of the pto. Just imagine if it were more than just imagination - can you point us at any actual oil that has actually been produced from algae this way? Keith Todd Swearingen D. Mindock wrote: Algae does seem to be a no brainer. So why isn't more impetus for it? We might even be able to harvest those algae blooms and make biodiesel from it. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Tom, Per horizontal acre, with the algae growing vertically. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.html Bookmark that page and think about buying stock in the manufacturers of the technology. That is if you have all your credit cards payed off first. Todd Swearingen Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd and all, Do you mean acre-foot of seawater? Do you have any idea how much phosphorus would be required for growing this kind of mass even if the algae can fix atmospheric nitrogen? Let me diplomatic and say this seems to be an overestimation. Tom *From:* Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tue, 01 Aug 2006 02:46:51 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
So in short Todd, as with the last 25 years, there is no biodiesel from algae right now on Planet Earth, but hey! it's just around the corner (December next year this time). Ho-hum, yawn... Ho-hum yawn ANYWAY, because, frankly, so what? Are you really thinking in the same corporatist and/or guzzle-addicted mindset that sees overall US demand as something that can be replaced, or sustained in any way? How do you figure it - current growth trends in consumption extrapolated to 2020, like the US DoE? LOL! Dream on! It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Anything much bigger or more centralised than appropriate smallscale, local, integrated, distributed production is just plumb out of luck. Unless you want to argue with this: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch Sorry, wrong paradigm, even the US military says that these days. Small-scale local-level oil-from-algae production might have its appeal in some circumstances (the city-farm setting eg, to supplement waste supplies), but existing algae types don't seem to cut it, it would probably mean using GMOs, with all the due reservations about that, and problems remain with extraction (who needs heptane) and with drying the stuff out in the first place without wasting a lot of time, effort and energy. Keith Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Well, I guess we could always eat it, the non-toxic types anyway. WRT blooms, some of those are quite nasty. Isn't algae farming a big business in Japan? Do they make anything beside algae supplement tablets with it? (The wife and I take algae supplements.) Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 1:20 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? So in short Todd, as with the last 25 years, there is no biodiesel from algae right now on Planet Earth, but hey! it's just around the corner (December next year this time). Ho-hum, yawn... Ho-hum yawn ANYWAY, because, frankly, so what? Are you really thinking in the same corporatist and/or guzzle-addicted mindset that sees overall US demand as something that can be replaced, or sustained in any way? How do you figure it - current growth trends in consumption extrapolated to 2020, like the US DoE? LOL! Dream on! It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Anything much bigger or more centralised than appropriate smallscale, local, integrated, distributed production is just plumb out of luck. Unless you want to argue with this: How much fuel can we grow? How much land will it take? http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#howmuch Sorry, wrong paradigm, even the US military says that these days. Small-scale local-level oil-from-algae production might have its appeal in some circumstances (the city-farm setting eg, to supplement waste supplies), but existing algae types don't seem to cut it, it would probably mean using GMOs, with all the due reservations about that, and problems remain with extraction (who needs heptane) and with drying the stuff out in the first place without wasting a lot of time, effort and energy. Keith Southern Kaliforn-I-eh. By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then. Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of. The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre. This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability. Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order. It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies. It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck. Todd Swearingen Keith Addison wrote: And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
I didnt see mention of 10^5 gallons of oil. Idid seemention of scrubbing stack gasses.KirkAppal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually that's a conservative value.Seehttp://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/12/greenshift_lice.htmland calculate what you come up with in square feet under roof with a 30' eave.The proto's already proven the values. All that remains is to upscale.Todd SwearingenKirk McLoren wrote: I think that 100,000 is still vaporware. No purchaseable cultures of algusunobtainius ;) Kirk */"D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Algae does seem to be a no brainer. So why isn't more impetus for it? We might even be able to harvest those algae blooms and make biodiesel from it. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" To: Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie /* wrote:WHAT!?!?!?!?!?Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_s
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
So where are these guys published? Such a cell line should be in the literature.KirkAppal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Southern Kaliforn-I-eh.By December's end, 2007. Plant is or has already been contracted upon and should be completed by then.Don't think it's quite yet proper to say what firm is financing it, at least not until they issue their first press release, which they may have already done for all I'm aware of.The 100,000 gallons is just an estimate projected upon the reasonably accepted value of 2,000 gpa from inoculated species in a horizontal acre.This plant will be growing vertically, permitting at least 50 x production capability.Will kinda' knock the socks off anything going. They'll just have to get the costs down to something affordable..., which will happen in short order.It's either that or biodiesel will be bottlenecked until hell freezes over with a an economically sustainable level of oilseed production (perhaps 5% at best of overall US demand) and consuming the vast majority of WVO supplies.It's the future or commercial biodiesel is plumb (horse droppings) out of luck.Todd SwearingenKeith Addison wrote:And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae.Todd Swearingen\ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006?:-)Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation.Kirk*/Jason Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail Beta.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
and the energy savings via melting glass to sequester the carbon? Jason Katie wrote: is there a way to mix it with recycled powdered glass and press and heat it until the glass melts and forms a cage to hold it together and maybe slow or stall any combustion? Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:28 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? I think it far simpler to build a coal mine in reverse. Pure carbon isnt structural and is quite combustible. */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: not nessecarily a house, but yes a charcoal building. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:43 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? A house made of charcoal bickettes? Hm. */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: what about making bricks out of it? add a hardener and press it into building materials. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Monday, July 31, 2006 1:18 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? C is infinitely easier to sequester than CO2. Is a solid at room temperature and pressure. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again? Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com *MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from us.rd.yahoo.com claiming to be* Great rates starting at 1¢/min. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
But wood is structural and you dont need a lot of it. Current construction has 2x4 or 2x6 on 18 inch centers. The wood is surrounded by fiberglass on 2 sides and the other two are often stucco and sheetrock. Fastening sheetrock to brickettes would be a fun task. I'm not keen on the idea.KirkZeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, it might be a little fire prone, but we build houses out of wood now... On 8/1/06, Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:not nessecarily a house, but yes a charcoal building.JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? A house made of charcoal bickettes? Hm.Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what about making bricks out of it? add a hardener and press it into building materials. JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?C is infinitely easier to sequester than CO2. Is a solid at room temperature and pressure.KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again?JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation.KirkJason Katie wrote:WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year.im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyonebelieve in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the bestfeedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higheryield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the landrequirement would be porportionally lower.for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA:-oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48gallons of soy oil.-THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for morethan 3 acres of soy.which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could beused for food or- OH NO! TREES!for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but moreclimate friendly) in the USA:-ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallonsof corn ethanol-THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for1.9 acres of corn.you see where im going with this?by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high densitystock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing thesupply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount.WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, butnoone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in theworld.JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]-- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Walls made from plaster covered straw bales are estimated to be 10 times as strong as wooden stud, way better insulated, way better fire retardency, environmentally responsible, made from local (usually) resources, and accomodate unconventional techniques which result in aesthetics that some of us really dig! Same goes for rammed earth construction. Charcoal briquettes are better for the barbeque IMO and I can show you how to get that barby from cold to ready embers in record time if you have access to LOX. LOL. Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: But wood is structural and you dont need a lot of it. Current construction has 2x4 or 2x6 on 18 inch centers. The wood is surrounded by fiberglass on 2 sides and the other two are often stucco and sheetrock. Fastening sheetrock to brickettes would be a fun task. I'm not keen on the idea. Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Well, it might be a little fire prone, but we build houses out of wood now... On 8/1/06, *Jason Katie* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: not nessecarily a house, but yes a charcoal building. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:43 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? A house made of charcoal bickettes? Hm. */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: what about making bricks out of it? add a hardener and press it into building materials. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Monday, July 31, 2006 1:18 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? C is infinitely easier to sequester than CO2. Is a solid at room temperature and pressure. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again? Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk Jason Katie wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
for those who haven't already seen this check out the videos here: http://www.doeblitz.net/ghg/ Joe Street wrote: Walls made from plaster covered straw bales are estimated to be 10 times as strong as wooden stud, way better insulated, way better fire retardency, environmentally responsible, made from local (usually) resources, and accomodate unconventional techniques which result in aesthetics that some of us really dig! Same goes for rammed earth construction. Charcoal briquettes are better for the barbeque IMO and I can show you how to get that barby from cold to ready embers in record time if you have access to LOX. LOL. Joe Kirk McLoren wrote: But wood is structural and you dont need a lot of it. Current construction has 2x4 or 2x6 on 18 inch centers. The wood is surrounded by fiberglass on 2 sides and the other two are often stucco and sheetrock. Fastening sheetrock to brickettes would be a fun task. I'm not keen on the idea. Kirk */Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: Well, it might be a little fire prone, but we build houses out of wood now... On 8/1/06, *Jason Katie* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: not nessecarily a house, but yes a charcoal building. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:43 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? A house made of charcoal bickettes? Hm. */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: what about making bricks out of it? add a hardener and press it into building materials. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Monday, July 31, 2006 1:18 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? C is infinitely easier to sequester than CO2. Is a solid at room temperature and pressure. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again? Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk Jason Katie wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
its a moot point if it is done with a solar source Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, August 02, 2006 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? and the energy savings via melting glass to sequester the carbon? Jason Katie wrote: is there a way to mix it with recycled powdered glass and press and heat it until the glass melts and forms a cage to hold it together and maybe slow or stall any combustion? Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:28 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? I think it far simpler to build a coal mine in reverse. Pure carbon isnt structural and is quite combustible. */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: not nessecarily a house, but yes a charcoal building. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:43 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? A house made of charcoal bickettes? Hm. */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: what about making bricks out of it? add a hardener and press it into building materials. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Monday, July 31, 2006 1:18 PM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? C is infinitely easier to sequester than CO2. Is a solid at room temperature and pressure. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again? Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com *MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from us.rd.yahoo.com claiming to be* Great rates starting at 1¢/min. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman7/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39666/*http://messenger.yahoo.com
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
There are a number of uses for carbon, there is a world market for it. Tires. Today some companies burn natural gas incompletely to produce carbon for tires. Road surface. Carbon can be mixed with other materials to make road surface materials, including chipped up tires, which are also a source of carbon. Brushes for electric motors. Mostly carbon. Carbon black, used for printing. I suspect black toner for laser printers and photocopiers has a significant carbon content. Carbon fibre. Remarkable construction material, light, strong. Popular in some competition bike frames. I'm sure there are other such applications (e.g., replacing fibreglass and some structural plastic) if the pricing is right. How about car bodies? Sequestering the carbon in the machine that produces so much of the problem. Body parts would be stronger, lighter and rust resistant, which should lead to improved fuel economy (lighter), lower repair bills (stronger and more resilient than steel), and fewer vehicles produced as bodies last longer (less energy used in vehicle construction. Plenty of uses. Darryl Jason Katie wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again? Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.com It's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
The manufacturing problem is you cant get there from here. If charcoal was a viable starting point for carbon black you can bet it would be used - but it isnt. Chopped up tires are experimental paving and their physical properties are quite dissimilar from brickettes. Taint that simple.Kirk[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are a number of uses for carbon, there is a world market for it.Tires. Today some companies burn natural gas incompletely to producecarbon for tires.Road surface. Carbon can be mixed with other materials to make roadsurface materials, including chipped up tires, which are also a source ofcarbon.Brushes for electric motors. Mostly carbon.Carbon black, used for printing. I suspect black toner for laser printersand photocopiers has a significant carbon content.Carbon fibre. Remarkable construction material, light, strong. Popularin some competition bike frames. I'm sure there are other suchapplications (e.g., replacing fibreglass and some structural plastic) ifthe pricing is right. How about car bodies? Sequestering the carbon inthe machine that produces so much of the problem. Body parts would bestronger, lighter and rust resistant, which should lead to improved fueleconomy (lighter), lower repair bills (stronger and more resilient thansteel), and fewer vehicles produced as bodies last longer (less energyused in vehicle construction.Plenty of uses.DarrylJason Katie wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in thecharcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwisedoes not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removedfrom the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we canturn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant wefind some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all thatcarbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we doanything to help her do it again? Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk Jason Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of highdensity stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops inthe world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]-- Darryl McMahon http://www.econogics.comIt's your planet. If you won't look after it, who will?___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Foreve
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Algae does seem to be a no brainer. So why isn't more impetus for it? We might even be able to harvest those algae blooms and make biodiesel from it. Peace, D. Mindock - Original Message - From: Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Hi Todd and all, Do you mean acre-foot of seawater? Do you have any idea how much phosphorus would be required for growing this kind of mass even if the algae can fix atmospheric nitrogen? Let me diplomatic and say this seems to be an overestimation. Tom From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 02:46:51 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae.Todd Swearingen\Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006?:-)KeithKirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote:WHAT!?!?!?!?!?Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
I think that 100,000 is still vaporware. Nopurchaseable cultures of algusunobtainius ;) Kirk"D. Mindock" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Algae does seem to be a no brainer. So why isn't more impetus for it? We might even beable to harvest those algae blooms and make biodiesel from it.Peace, D. Mindock- Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <BIOFUEL@SUSTAINABLELISTS.ORG>Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 12:39 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
A house made of charcoal bickettes? Hm.Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what about making bricks out of it? add a hardener and press it into building materials. JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?C is infinitely easier to sequester than CO2. Is a solid at room temperature and pressure.KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again?JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation.KirkJason Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year.im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyonebelieve in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the bestfeedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higheryield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the landrequirement would be porportionally lower.for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA:-oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48gallons of soy oil.-THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for morethan 3 acres of soy.which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could beused for food or- OH NO! TREES!for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but moreclimate friendly) in the USA:-ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallonsof corn ethanol-THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for1.9 acres of corn.you see where im going with this?by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high densitystock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing thesupply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount.WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, butnoone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in theworld.JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]-- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Do you Yahoo!?Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
not nessecarily a house, but yes a charcoal building. JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? A house made of charcoal bickettes? Hm.Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what about making bricks out of it? add a hardener and press it into building materials. JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? C is infinitely easier to sequester than CO2. Is a solid at room temperature and pressure. KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again?JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation.KirkJason Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year.im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyonebelieve in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the bestfeedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higheryield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the landrequirement would be porportionally lower.for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA:-oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48gallons of soy oil.-THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for morethan 3 acres of soy.which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could beused for food or- OH NO! TREES!for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but moreclimate friendly) in the USA:-ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallonsof corn ethanol-THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for1.9 acres of corn.you see where im going with this?by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high densitystock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing thesupply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount.WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, butnoone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in theworld.JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]-- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006___Biofuel mailing listB
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Well, it might be a little fire prone, but we build houses out of wood now...On 8/1/06, Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: not nessecarily a house, but yes a charcoal building. JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? A house made of charcoal bickettes? Hm.Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what about making bricks out of it? add a hardener and press it into building materials. JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? C is infinitely easier to sequester than CO2. Is a solid at room temperature and pressure. KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again?JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation.KirkJason Katie wrote:WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year.im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyonebelieve in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the bestfeedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higheryield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the landrequirement would be porportionally lower.for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA:-oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48gallons of soy oil.-THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for morethan 3 acres of soy.which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could beused for food or- OH NO! TREES!for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but moreclimate friendly) in the USA:-ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallonsof corn ethanol-THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for1.9 acres of corn.you see where im going with this?by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high densitystock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing thesupply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount.WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, butnoone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in theworld.JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]-- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
I think it far simpler to build a "coal" mine in reverse. Pure carbon isnt structural and is quite combustible.Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: not nessecarily a house, but yes a charcoal building. JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:43 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? A house made of charcoal bickettes? Hm.Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what about making bricks out of it? add a hardener and press it into building materials. JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?C is infinitely easier to sequester than CO2. Is a solid at room temperature and pressure.KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again?JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation.Kirk Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
is there a way tomix it with recycled
powdered glass and press and heat it untilthe glass melts and forms a
"cage" to hold it together and maybe slow or stall any combustion?
JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From:
Kirk
McLoren
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:28
PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What
will you be driving?
I think it far simpler to build a "coal" mine in reverse. Pure
carbon isnt structural and is quite combustible.Jason Katie
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
not nessecarily a house, but yes a charcoal
building.
JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From:
Kirk
McLoren
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:43
PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car:
What will you be driving?
A house made of charcoal bickettes?
Hm.Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
what about making bricks out of it? add a
hardener and press it into building materials.
JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From:
Kirk McLoren
To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:18
PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future
car: What will you be driving?
C is infinitely easier to sequester than CO2. Is a solid at room
temperature and pressure.
KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
speaking
of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the
charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that
otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted
or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it
sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of
years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a
reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the
cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to
help her do it again?JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From:
Kirk McLorenTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sunday,
July 30, 2006 9:07 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What
will you be driving?1000 gallons methanol per acre with
hemp if using pyrolytic
distillation.Kirk
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.rd.yahoo.com" claiming to be Great
rates starting at 1¢/min.
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messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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7/31/2006
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Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Castor still has the Ricin problem. can any one let me know how to destroy this by product in the mash? I need to process for oil enough seeds to supply 200 liters/day of castor oil. The Ricin in two seeds are enough to kill a person depending on the type of ingestion in 2 to 7 days. There is no antibiotic or antidote to Ricin and thus is classed as ingredients for WMD. Jatropha is okay and is good for ground stabilization and many other uses but it has toxins. So far on this list I have not found any place site or information on where to buy Mexican non-toxic Jatropha seeds, I am beginning to think that they are a myth after 6 months searching. 78 + varieties of Jatropha and no one can supply non-toxic varietyseeds? Old rice isrealizing us close to 30 liters of wet Ethanol per 24 kilos of broken and destroyedgrain. Doug - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 9:07 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? 1000 gallons methanolper acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year.im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower.for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA:-oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil.-THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy.which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES!for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA:-ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol-THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn.you see where im going with this?by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world.JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!?Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.-- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Lao Telecom MailScanner with NOD32, and is believed to be clean. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/-- This message has been
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
here is an article that says you can get 900 gallons of ethanol per acre from sorghum, with lower energy inputs than corn. I can't speak for the veracity of the the claim, I just googled sorghum ethanol http://www.itsgood4.us/ethanol.htm Jason Katie wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- -- Bob Allen,http://ozarker.org/bob -- - The modern conservative is engaged in one of Man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness JKG ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
the toxin is a protein which can be denatured, that is made non-toxic by a number of means. Simply heating it long enough will do. I am sure there are references as to how to denature ricin. lres1 wrote: Castor still has the Ricin problem. can any one let me know how to destroy this by product in the mash? I need to process for oil enough seeds to supply 200 liters/day of castor oil. The Ricin in two seeds are enough to kill a person depending on the type of ingestion in 2 to 7 days. There is no antibiotic or antidote to Ricin and thus is classed as ingredients for WMD. Jatropha is okay and is good for ground stabilization and many other uses but it has toxins. So far on this list I have not found any place site or information on where to buy Mexican non-toxic Jatropha seeds, I am beginning to think that they are a myth after 6 months searching. 78 + varieties of Jatropha and no one can supply non-toxic variety seeds? Old rice is realizing us close to 30 liters of wet Ethanol per 24 kilos of broken and destroyed grain. Doug - Original Message - *From:* Kirk McLoren mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* biofuel@sustainablelists.org mailto:biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Monday, July 31, 2006 9:07 AM *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
C is infinitely easier to sequester than CO2. Is a solid at room temperature and pressure.KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again?JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation.KirkJason Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year.im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyonebelieve in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the bestfeedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higheryield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the landrequirement would be porportionally lower.for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA:-oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48gallons of soy oil.-THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for morethan 3 acres of soy.which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could beused for food or- OH NO! TREES!for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but moreclimate friendly) in the USA:-ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallonsof corn ethanol-THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for1.9 acres of corn.you see where im going with this?by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high densitystock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing thesupply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount.WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, butnoone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in theworld.JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]-- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Do you Yahoo!?Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/b
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
what about making bricks out of it? add a hardener and press it into building materials. JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, July 31, 2006 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? C is infinitely easier to sequester than CO2. Is a solid at room temperature and pressure. KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again?JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]- Original Message - From: Kirk McLorenTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation.KirkJason Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year.im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyonebelieve in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the bestfeedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higheryield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the landrequirement would be porportionally lower.for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA:-oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48gallons of soy oil.-THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for morethan 3 acres of soy.which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could beused for food or- OH NO! TREES!for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but moreclimate friendly) in the USA:-ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallonsof corn ethanol-THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for1.9 acres of corn.you see where im going with this?by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high densitystock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing thesupply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount.WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, butnoone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in theworld.JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]-- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Do you Yahoo!?Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://ww
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=42241/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/handraisers ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
And/or 100,000 gallons of oil per acre when growing algae. Todd Swearingen \ Um, where exactly are these acres of algae each producing 100,000 gallons of oil? Anywhere here on Planet Earth in August 2006? :-) Keith Kirk McLoren wrote: 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk */Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
Hi all, This is an informative article on future vehicles. Future Car: What will you be driving? http://www.politicalcortex.com/story/2006/7/29/1213/06001 With oil in the $75 range, and poised to go higher at any moment (the current crisis extends into Iran? Rebels in Nigeria? A deepening chill with Venezuela? Russia gets tired of being talked to like a three year old? Mexico runs dry? Take your pick.), American automakers have responded by... designing new large SUVs. It's hard to blame them, when there's little evidence that American consumers have shown any willingness to drive around in vehicles occupying less than an acre of road space. In fact, despite the rising costs of fuel, statistics out last week show that the average MPG grew from 21 MPG in 2005 to 21 MPG in 2006. But if there's one sure thing, it's that it will get worse. As Jerome a Paris has detailed in his series of diaries, there's every evidence that the post-Katrina rise in oil prices is only a prelude to what's to come. There's little to no capacity for expansion on the production end of the pipe, and an ever greater demand sucking at the other end. You couldn't ask for a better formula for demonstrating the effects of supply and demand on prices. Forget price gouging. That's only a distraction. Oil prices are going to go up, and there's next to nothing any president or congress can do to prevent it. So... what then? Do we have to sit and take it on the chin? Just exactly what are the options? How will you get to work five years from now? How about ten? Telephones, Trains, and Sprawl, etc. Before I get to the car stuff, let me say what this diary is not about: it's not about fixing sprawl. It's not about concentrating living areas near working areas, rezoning land use, or funneling people toward public transport. All those things are good, all those things are necessary, and all those things will have to happen if we're to survive. But all those things also have consequences that are hard to think through. The fact is that for at least the last sixty years, we have structured our society in ways that encouraged people to spread out. We've subsidized sprawl to the tune of trillions of dollars, and encouraged it with everything from education policies to popular culture. Reversing the deleterious effects of sprawl is a project so costly, so complex, so daunting in scale, that it even a plan as detailed and wide-ranging as Energize America only lightly touches on the subject. Is fixing this problem essential to our long term survival? Absolutely. But wrapped up in this are pervasive issues ranging from the frontier spirit to good old American racism. I'm not going to solve it in this diary. This diary is about cars and what makes them go. Future Fuel When people start discussing the future of transportation, the problem is generally boiled down to one of fuel. Gasoline? Diesel? Biodiesel? Ethanol? Hydrogen? Dilithium crystals? Each of these has been proposed (okay, maybe the dilithium proposal only shows up if you talk about cars at a Trek conventions), and each comes with its own list of pluses and minuses. While wind energy, solar, and new forms of hydro all offer at least partial solutions to getting more power onto our electric grid, when it comes to cars, we're talking portable energy -- and that's a different breed of cat. Strapping a windmill on the roof of your car is not a good way to generate power (so you can stop that wind-powered Ford Fiesta conversion you were working on right now). To power a car, energy has to come in a form that's light enough and compact enough to reasonably be carried along. Oil-based fuels, such as gasoline, fit that requirement well. With well over 100,000 BTUs stored in a single gallon, they do an admirable job of providing a lot of go in a small space. So admirable, that for a hundred years there have been few real efforts to look elsewhere for automotive power. Now that we're forced to face the looming end of the oil age, finding alternatives with the same mix of high power to volume is turning out to be a tougher nut than many might assume. Here's a quick run down of things we might use to push metal down all those highways we've built. The Portable Power Rainbow Oil-Based Oil - Biofuel Blends Biofuels Fuel / Electric Hybrids Electric Gasoline E85 E100 (Ethanol) Plug-in Hybrid Batteries Diesel BioBlend Biodiesel Plug-in Diesel Hybrid Hydrogen Over in the red zone are the oil-based fuels we know and guzzle so much of today. You might also put natural gas in this category. It's not oil-based, but it is a fossil fuel with increasing demands biting into a limited supply, and there are a few vehicles designed to work on various forms of compressed gas. Note that this red zone includes all current hybrid cars, even my beloved Prius (which took a huge smack in this nose this
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
1000 gallons methanolper acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation.KirkJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year.im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower.for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA:-oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil.-THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy.which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES!for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA:-ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol-THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn.you see where im going with this?by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world.JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?
speaking of pyrolysis... what can we do with the carbon left over in the charcoal instead of burning it? this is a solid carbon that otherwise does not get into the atmosphere. can it be compacted or somehow removed from the short term carbon cycle? i know it sounds dumb, but if we can turn loose what took millions of years to put away naturally why cant we find some way to speed a reversal artificially? Mama pulled all that carbon out of the cycle and buried it with solar power, cant we do anything to help her do it again? Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving? 1000 gallons methanol per acre with hemp if using pyrolytic distillation. Kirk Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WHAT!?!?!?!?!? Could we replace all our oil with bio-fuels? Well... maybe. But it would be an extraordinary effort. A fifty-fifty mix of bio-diesel and ethanol would require putting three times the productive farm land in Iowa toward nothing but the production of fuel just to match what we currently import. Make it five Iowas to solve the whole problem. Trouble is, that much farm land is not readily available. There's also the little nit of figuring out what we eat while every scrap of land is busy working for our gas tanks. Naturally, if we combine bio-fuels with the two hoped for goals in regular cars -- more efficient engines and lighter weight vehicles -- we can shrink the requisite greenspace. Brazil, which generates ethanol from sugar cane, has been systematically raising the amount of ethanol in their fuel supply, and Brazilian manufacturers have been adding small flex-fuel vehicles that can run on anything from E0 to E100. Zap is bringing at least one of these vehicles to US consumers next year. im all for the efficiency argument, but COME ON PEOPLE! doesnt anyone believe in using something OTHER than corn and soy? they are NOT the best feedstocks anyone could use for fuel! move to a better supply, not a higher yield. this is ridiculous! if the supply was a high density stock the land requirement would be porportionally lower. for diesel replacement assume we used castor in the USA: -oil yield would be roughly 151 gallons per acre compared to 48 gallons of soy oil. -THEREFORE one acre of castor would eliminate the need for more than 3 acres of soy. which means those other 2 acres of new empty field could be used for food or- OH NO! TREES! for gasoline replacement assume we use sugarbeets (not very good, but more climate friendly) in the USA: -ethanol yield would be 412 gallons per acre compared to 214 gallons of corn ethanol -THEREFORE one acre of sugarbeets would eliminate the need for 1.9 acres of corn. you see where im going with this? by selective breeding of some of the more tropical varieties of high density stock, we can slowly push the growing regions further north, increasing the supply density, and lowering the acreage needed to supply the same amount. WE DONT NEED CORN OR SOY FOR FUEL! i might be raving like an idiot, but noone can seem to understand that corn and soy are not the only crops in the world. Jason ICQ#: 154998177 MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Do you Yahoo!? Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel
