Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Well, yes I was speaking from my experience, the people that I interact with and the society that I live in (which is Canadian - a facsimile of the US). These people (yes I am generalizing) are generally too content to make the mental effort, to engage thier conscience, to consider that each or us can take a bit of the responsibility for the situation which then means that in good conscience you can no longer just bury your head in the sand and pretend it isn't so. The few who do take the pains to do something are few and sometimes appear to be little more than a curiosity to the general public. I should visit Sweden and see for myself how things are over there. It is good news that you bring and I wish there was more of it. Over here it feels like even though you may be swimming against the current and seeming to make your own personal progress, from the perspective of the stream bank you are still being swept downstream. Joe Hakan Falk wrote: Joe, If you mean "we the Americans did not get it", you are right. This list is international and without any Americans dominance. "We the Swedish did get it" and have constantly worked on energy efficiency and saving all the time since 1973. Hakan At 22:36 11/10/2005, you wrote: I think lots of people "get it" - didn't anyone else on this list live thru the 70's? But as soon as oil prices dropped we all "forgot it" and bought SUV's and McMansions. Talking about any kind of realization of change or sacrifice is anathema. Terrorism? Go shopping. Oil dwindling? Pass a tax break for the biggest SUV's. Appal Energy wrote: Congrats Joe! At least one person on this list "gets it." Todd Swearingen Joe Street wrote: I guess I didn't make my point very clearly. I was thinking about less. It seems like a lot of folks, even the ones who are so called envronmentally conscious think that means finding ways to go on with more for less impact or less cost. When I think of the word less I think of actually less. Like less consumption. Less growth. Less use. Finding ways to shift the peak of energy consumption around the clock or spread it out is still about the poison of more. We don't need any more more. We need more less. Is anyone here under the illusion that we can substitute renewables for non renewables and continue with the legacy of more? Renewables are more confining than non renewables for the love of peat! They may have a smaller footprint in some regards but they do not indulge the illusion of more. On the contrary they will demand the reality of less. J John Hayes wrote: Well, to be fair, in Sen. Lieberman's homestate, where I just so happen to live, electrical generation is 11.8% Coal, 18.5% oil, 12.9% NG, 48.9% nuclear, 1.5% hydro and 6.4% other (presumably renewables). Even better, CT is targeting 20% renewables by 2010 and 50% renewable by 2020. Thus I would have absolutely no environmental reservations about buying an EV or PEHV in CT in the next 5 years. jh Joe Street wrote: Oh yes this is dramatically better. So I wonder if he thought about how that energy was generated, and then there is the little issue of just what happens to "the peak period" when everyone's car is plugged in the grid every night. Sheeesh. I thought rotating blackouts was already a problem. Joe But we can do even better dramatically better with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours when power is in surplus and cheaper would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Oh yes this is dramatically better. So I wonder if he thought about how that energy was generated, and then there is the little issue of just what happens to the peak period when everyone's car is plugged in the grid every night. Sheeesh. I thought rotating blackouts was already a problem. Joe But we can do even better – dramatically better – with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours –when power is in surplus and cheaper – would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Dick Cheney has the answer. Nuclear power, clean and non-polluting as he calls it, and between 1,200 and 1,900 new power plants over the next two plus decades - the equivalent of more than one new, licensed plant per week. Any ideas as to what the fuel sources will be for those new generation facilities. A) Coal and B) Nuclear. End of story. Don't we already have enough problems and looming threats on the near event horizon as a result of both of these sources? Remember now. All this is predicated on mindless, cancerous, all-consuming economic growth in the traditional manner. Me thinks Dick Numb Nuts Cheney needs to read a little Edward Abbey, who made the casual and rather definitive observation that Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. Todd Swearingen Oh yes this is dramatically better. So I wonder if he thought about how that energy was generated, and then there is the little issue of just what happens to the peak period when everyone's car is plugged in the grid every night. Sheeesh. I thought rotating blackouts was already a problem. Joe But we can do even better – dramatically better – with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours –when power is in surplus and cheaper – would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Ok so if we follow this line of thought to it's logical conclusion where do we end up Todd? Yeah I know, 'The dark side'. Maybe the dark side is where the real Jedi warriors reside and everyone has been brainwashed to believe the opposite. It's the bizzarro world where white is really black and black is really white. Funny thing is this was actually foretold in the Tao Teh Ching (for whatever that is worth to modern society) There was a great scene in the movie "The Matrix" where the human race is compared to a virus, which espouses ( I assume) the same sentiment as Abbey (which I have not read). And then there's "If you are not with us you are against us" It's as scary as if you had swallowed a pill and have to ride out the consequences no matter how terrible the trip. Even if you discover the train is on a track to disaster there is no getting off this train. The only hope is to dream up a way to entice enough of the passengers away from the onboard entertainment to perhaps overwhelm the engineer and apply the brakes! What we need, going back to the Matrix analogy is a really good 'red pill'. Perhaps social and economic collapse is just the ticket. Throw in a few wars and a few good plagues in the mix and perhaps what comes out the other side will be more sensible. If any of us or our children are left to see it. Sorry I guess I'm not in the most optimistic mood this morning. I forgot to take my blue pill. Joe Appal Energy wrote: Snip Remember now. All this is predicated on mindless, cancerous, all-consuming economic growth in the "traditional" manner. Me thinks Dick "Numb Nuts" Cheney needs to read a little Edward Abbey, who made the casual and rather definitive observation that "Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell." Todd Swearingen Oh yes this is dramatically better. So I wonder if he thought about how that energy was generated, and then there is the little issue of just what happens to "the peak period" when everyone's car is plugged in the grid every night. Sheeesh. I thought rotating blackouts was already a problem. Joe But we can do even better – dramatically better – with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours –when power is in surplus and cheaper – would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Well, to be fair, in Sen. Lieberman's homestate, where I just so happen to live, electrical generation is 11.8% Coal, 18.5% oil, 12.9% NG, 48.9% nuclear, 1.5% hydro and 6.4% other (presumably renewables). Even better, CT is targeting 20% renewables by 2010 and 50% renewable by 2020. Thus I would have absolutely no environmental reservations about buying an EV or PEHV in CT in the next 5 years. jh Joe Street wrote: Oh yes this is dramatically better. So I wonder if he thought about how that energy was generated, and then there is the little issue of just what happens to the peak period when everyone's car is plugged in the grid every night. Sheeesh. I thought rotating blackouts was already a problem. Joe But we can do even better – dramatically better – with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours –when power is in surplus and cheaper – would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
I guess I didn't make my point very clearly. I was thinking about less. It seems like a lot of folks, even the ones who are so called envronmentally conscious think that means finding ways to go on with more for less impact or less cost. When I think of the word less I think of actually less. Like less consumption. Less growth. Less use. Finding ways to shift the peak of energy consumption around the clock or spread it out is still about the poison of more. We don't need any more more. We need more less. Is anyone here under the illusion that we can substitute renewables for non renewables and continue with the legacy of more? Renewables are more confining than non renewables for the love of peat! They may have a smaller footprint in some regards but they do not indulge the illusion of more. On the contrary they will demand the reality of less. J John Hayes wrote: Well, to be fair, in Sen. Lieberman's homestate, where I just so happen to live, electrical generation is 11.8% Coal, 18.5% oil, 12.9% NG, 48.9% nuclear, 1.5% hydro and 6.4% other (presumably renewables). Even better, CT is targeting 20% renewables by 2010 and 50% renewable by 2020. Thus I would have absolutely no environmental reservations about buying an EV or PEHV in CT in the next 5 years. jh Joe Street wrote: Oh yes this is dramatically better. So I wonder if he thought about how that energy was generated, and then there is the little issue of just what happens to "the peak period" when everyone's car is plugged in the grid every night. Sheeesh. I thought rotating blackouts was already a problem. Joe But we can do even better – dramatically better – with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours –when power is in surplus and cheaper – would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Congrats Joe! At least one person on this list gets it. Todd Swearingen Joe Street wrote: I guess I didn't make my point very clearly. I was thinking about less. It seems like a lot of folks, even the ones who are so called envronmentally conscious think that means finding ways to go on with more for less impact or less cost. When I think of the word less I think of actually less. Like less consumption. Less growth. Less use. Finding ways to shift the peak of energy consumption around the clock or spread it out is still about the poison of more. We don't need any more more. We need more less. Is anyone here under the illusion that we can substitute renewables for non renewables and continue with the legacy of more? Renewables are more confining than non renewables for the love of peat! They may have a smaller footprint in some regards but they do not indulge the illusion of more. On the contrary they will demand the reality of less. J John Hayes wrote: Well, to be fair, in Sen. Lieberman's homestate, where I just so happen to live, electrical generation is 11.8% Coal, 18.5% oil, 12.9% NG, 48.9% nuclear, 1.5% hydro and 6.4% other (presumably renewables). Even better, CT is targeting 20% renewables by 2010 and 50% renewable by 2020. Thus I would have absolutely no environmental reservations about buying an EV or PEHV in CT in the next 5 years. jh Joe Street wrote: Oh yes this is dramatically better. So I wonder if he thought about how that energy was generated, and then there is the little issue of just what happens to the peak period when everyone's car is plugged in the grid every night. Sheeesh. I thought rotating blackouts was already a problem. Joe But we can do even better – dramatically better – with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours –when power is in surplus and cheaper – would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Can't quite connect with all the metaphors Joe. But the inevitable end of the Leibermans of the world failing to address reality is rather obvious. Too bad that old geezers such as he won't have to reap what he helps sew. Todd Swearingen Joe Street wrote: Ok so if we follow this line of thought to it's logical conclusion where do we end up Todd? Yeah I know, 'The dark side'. Maybe the dark side is where the real Jedi warriors reside and everyone has been brainwashed to believe the opposite. It's the bizzarro world where white is really black and black is really white. Funny thing is this was actually foretold in the Tao Teh Ching (for whatever that is worth to modern society) There was a great scene in the movie The Matrix where the human race is compared to a virus, which espouses ( I assume) the same sentiment as Abbey (which I have not read). And then there's If you are not with us you are against us It's as scary as if you had swallowed a pill and have to ride out the consequences no matter how terrible the trip. Even if you discover the train is on a track to disaster there is no getting off this train. The only hope is to dream up a way to entice enough of the passengers away from the onboard entertainment to perhaps overwhelm the engineer and apply the brakes! What we need, going back to the Matrix analogy is a really good 'red pill'. Perhaps social and economic collapse is just the ticket. Throw in a few wars and a few good plagues in the mix and perhaps what comes out the other side will be more sensible. If any of us or our children are left to see it. Sorry I guess I'm not in the most optimistic mood this morning. I forgot to take my blue pill. Joe Appal Energy wrote: Snip Remember now. All this is predicated on mindless, cancerous, all-consuming economic growth in the traditional manner. Me thinks Dick Numb Nuts Cheney needs to read a little Edward Abbey, who made the casual and rather definitive observation that Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. Todd Swearingen Oh yes this is dramatically better. So I wonder if he thought about how that energy was generated, and then there is the little issue of just what happens to the peak period when everyone's car is plugged in the grid every night. Sheeesh. I thought rotating blackouts was already a problem. Joe But we can do even better – dramatically better – with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours –when power is in surplus and cheaper – would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Well Todd, you made my day! Thank you. Joe Appal Energy wrote: Congrats Joe! At least one person on this list "gets it." Todd Swearingen Joe Street wrote: I guess I didn't make my point very clearly. I was thinking about less. It seems like a lot of folks, even the ones who are so called envronmentally conscious think that means finding ways to go on with more for less impact or less cost. When I think of the word less I think of actually less. Like less consumption. Less growth. Less use. Finding ways to shift the peak of energy consumption around the clock or spread it out is still about the poison of more. We don't need any more more. We need more less. Is anyone here under the illusion that we can substitute renewables for non renewables and continue with the legacy of more? Renewables are more confining than non renewables for the love of peat! They may have a smaller footprint in some regards but they do not indulge the illusion of more. On the contrary they will demand the reality of less. J John Hayes wrote: Well, to be fair, in Sen. Lieberman's homestate, where I just so happen to live, electrical generation is 11.8% Coal, 18.5% oil, 12.9% NG, 48.9% nuclear, 1.5% hydro and 6.4% other (presumably renewables). Even better, CT is targeting 20% renewables by 2010 and 50% renewable by 2020. Thus I would have absolutely no environmental reservations about buying an EV or PEHV in CT in the next 5 years. jh Joe Street wrote: Oh yes this is dramatically better. So I wonder if he thought about how that energy was generated, and then there is the little issue of just what happens to "the peak period" when everyone's car is plugged in the grid every night. Sheeesh. I thought rotating blackouts was already a problem. Joe But we can do even better – dramatically better – with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours –when power is in surplus and cheaper – would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
I think lots of people "get it" - didn't anyone else on this list live thru the 70's? But as soon as oil prices dropped we all "forgot it" and bought SUV's and McMansions. Talking about any kind of realization of change or sacrifice is anathema. Terrorism? Go shopping. Oil dwindling? Pass a tax break for the biggest SUV's. Appal Energy wrote: Congrats Joe! At least one person on this list "gets it." Todd Swearingen Joe Street wrote: I guess I didn't make my point very clearly. I was thinking about less. It seems like a lot of folks, even the ones who are so called envronmentally conscious think that means finding ways to go on with more for less impact or less cost. When I think of the word less I think of actually less. Like less consumption. Less growth. Less use. Finding ways to shift the peak of energy consumption around the clock or spread it out is still about the poison of more. We don't need any more more. We need more less. Is anyone here under the illusion that we can substitute renewables for non renewables and continue with the legacy of more? Renewables are more confining than non renewables for the love of peat! They may have a smaller footprint in some regards but they do not indulge the illusion of more. On the contrary they will demand the reality of less. J John Hayes wrote: Well, to be fair, in Sen. Lieberman's homestate, where I just so happen to live, electrical generation is 11.8% Coal, 18.5% oil, 12.9% NG, 48.9% nuclear, 1.5% hydro and 6.4% other (presumably renewables). Even better, CT is targeting 20% renewables by 2010 and 50% renewable by 2020. Thus I would have absolutely no environmental reservations about buying an EV or PEHV in CT in the next 5 years. jh Joe Street wrote: Oh yes this is dramatically better. So I wonder if he thought about how that energy was generated, and then there is the little issue of just what happens to "the peak period" when everyone's car is plugged in the grid every night. Sheeesh. I thought rotating blackouts was already a problem. Joe But we can do even better – dramatically better – with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours –when power is in surplus and cheaper – would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Joe, If you mean we the Americans did not get it, you are right. This list is international and without any Americans dominance. We the Swedish did get it and have constantly worked on energy efficiency and saving all the time since 1973. Hakan At 22:36 11/10/2005, you wrote: I think lots of people get it - didn't anyone else on this list live thru the 70's? But as soon as oil prices dropped we all forgot it and bought SUV's and McMansions. Talking about any kind of realization of change or sacrifice is anathema. Terrorism? Go shopping. Oil dwindling? Pass a tax break for the biggest SUV's. Appal Energy wrote: Congrats Joe! At least one person on this list gets it. Todd Swearingen Joe Street wrote: I guess I didn't make my point very clearly. I was thinking about less. It seems like a lot of folks, even the ones who are so called envronmentally conscious think that means finding ways to go on with more for less impact or less cost. When I think of the word less I think of actually less. Like less consumption. Less growth. Less use. Finding ways to shift the peak of energy consumption around the clock or spread it out is still about the poison of more. We don't need any more more. We need more less. Is anyone here under the illusion that we can substitute renewables for non renewables and continue with the legacy of more? Renewables are more confining than non renewables for the love of peat! They may have a smaller footprint in some regards but they do not indulge the illusion of more. On the contrary they will demand the reality of less. J John Hayes wrote: Well, to be fair, in Sen. Lieberman's homestate, where I just so happen to live, electrical generation is 11.8% Coal, 18.5% oil, 12.9% NG, 48.9% nuclear, 1.5% hydro and 6.4% other (presumably renewables). Even better, CT is targeting 20% renewables by 2010 and 50% renewable by 2020. Thus I would have absolutely no environmental reservations about buying an EV or PEHV in CT in the next 5 years. jh Joe Street wrote: Oh yes this is dramatically better. So I wonder if he thought about how that energy was generated, and then there is the little issue of just what happens to the peak period when everyone's car is plugged in the grid every night. Sheeesh. I thought rotating blackouts was already a problem. Joe But we can do even better dramatically better with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours when power is in surplus and cheaper would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
It would make things a lot easier if life were such that woes were solved in 30 minutes as on TV, but we all know that's not the case. Unfortunately, for every 'enlightened' person that I come across who is interested in alternative fuels, sustainability, and environmental responsibility - there are 12 more who think it is the 'God-given right' (those aren't my words) to drive an SUV that gets 1 HWY/0 city. There seem to only be a few ways to actually institute *the change* - 1. Get those in power to force it through 2. Rally enough people behind the cause to make it inevitable or 3. Run out of oil (etc...) What are the initiatives that will drive the average citizen to want to back this movement? Shannon Can't quite connect with all the metaphors Joe. But the inevitable end of the Leibermans of the world failing to address reality is rather obvious. Too bad that old geezers such as he won't have to reap what he helps sew. Todd Swearingen Joe Street wrote: Ok so if we follow this line of thought to it's logical conclusion where do we end up Todd? Yeah I know, 'The dark side'. Maybe the dark side is where the real Jedi warriors reside and everyone has been brainwashed to believe the opposite. It's the bizzarro world where white is really black and black is really white. Funny thing is this was actually foretold in the Tao Teh Ching (for whatever that is worth to modern society) There was a great scene in the movie The Matrix where the human race is compared to a virus, which espouses ( I assume) the same sentiment as Abbey (which I have not read). And then there's If you are not with us you are against us It's as scary as if you had swallowed a pill and have to ride out the consequences no matter how terrible the trip. Even if you discover the train is on a track to disaster there is no getting off this train. The only hope is to dream up a way to entice enough of the passengers away from the onboard entertainment to perhaps overwhelm the engineer and apply the brakes! What we need, going back to the Matrix analogy is a really good 'red pill'. Perhaps social and economic collapse is just the ticket. Throw in a few wars and a few good plagues in the mix and perhaps what comes out the other side will be more sensible. If any of us or our children are left to see it. Sorry I guess I'm not in the most optimistic mood this morning. I forgot to take my blue pill. Joe Appal Energy wrote: Snip Remember now. All this is predicated on mindless, cancerous, all-consuming economic growth in the traditional manner. Me thinks Dick Numb Nuts Cheney needs to read a little Edward Abbey, who made the casual and rather definitive observation that Growth for growth's sake is the ideology of the cancer cell. Todd Swearingen Oh yes this is dramatically better. So I wonder if he thought about how that energy was generated, and then there is the little issue of just what happens to the peak period when everyone's car is plugged in the grid every night. Sheeesh. I thought rotating blackouts was already a problem. Joe But we can do even better dramatically better with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours when power is in surplus and cheaper would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Oh, he probably gets it. But saying and being drummed out of office is something else again. Jimmy Cartet "got it" and look what happened to him. It's the vast majority of US citizens that "don't get it" and won't, until they have to. People in the US are mad about gas prices, but they are not mad they we have no energy policy. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd, I vote for the devestating change to the American life style. Maybe everyone could just have a life. Tom Irwin From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 01:34:54 -0300 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids "on threshold of commercialization" Sorry folks. But Senator Lieberman just doesn't get it. Someone should suggest the following as mandatory viewing as his primer. http://www.endofsuburbia.com/ Hybrids won't solve the problems we face, especially when they're now being engineered in ways that compromise their previous efficiency for acceleration capability. Even alternative fuels won't solve them. We've reached peak production at the global scale. The only way for demand to match reductions in production is immediately reduced consumption. That means no ten year lag in waiting for hybrid market share to increase. That means no ten year lag in biofuels to garner market share. What it does mean is an immediate concerted effort between conservation, overnight retooling of Detroit for efficiency (or else the big three further lose market share and quickly go belly up) and alt fuels. Anything less than a three pronged attack means a devastating change in "the American lifestyle." And we damned sure wouldn't want to disappoint or upset George Junior or Blaire by having to alter the overall American/Western lifestyle in order to prevent suburban collapse and general economic pandemonium, now would we? Todd Swearingen Snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
You're correct Mike, Jimmy Carter got it. But it wasn't what he got that sent the economy into a tailspin. Yes, it was partly his fault for failing to pay strict attention to some of the economic indicators soon enough. But the market took a dive largely due to the shakeup from the Arab oil embargo. And when you throw the waning confidence factor resulting from that, a hostage crisis, a failed rescue attempt and then a charletan such as Reagan who promises two fresh baked pies on every window sill, you have a recipe for a one term president. Sad part is? The US economy continued to grow for nearly fifteen years after the nation began its intense conservation endeavors in the late '70s - all without increasing its oil imports by a drop for the first ten to twelve years of that period. Think about all that new growth and the massive amounts of energy it took to create it. But all those gains were achieved primarily as a result of conservation and efficiency (negawatts). Too bad it was Reagan and Bush who received the free ride from that market change. Same thing could happen again, or at least things could stabilize considerably. Unfortunately, George Bush wouldn't know what a cardigan moment was, much less initiate one, even if his life depended upon it. The suggestion from this vantage point is that you grab the stand-up straps on this bus and prepare yourself for a hasty stop over the next few years. Bush's successor will be spending an inordinate amount of time the next four years fighting to turn markets back in the direction that Carter started. And then what? The moral minority will manage to stuff the ballot box and install another puppet or two for twelve more years and run this ship of state aground all over again? Gets a little old. Just waiting to see how many in this gene pool are smart enough to figure it out and not board the Titanic for yet another ride. You'd think they would have had a clue after the first trillion dollar record of national debt. Todd Swearingen Oh, he probably gets it. But saying and being drummed out of office is something else again. Jimmy Cartet got it and look what happened to him. It's the vast majority of US citizens that don't get it and won't, until they have to. People in the US are mad about gas prices, but they are not mad they we have no energy policy. Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd, I vote for the devestating change to the American life style. Maybe everyone could just have a life. Tom Irwin *From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sun, 09 Oct 2005 01:34:54 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization Sorry folks. But Senator Lieberman just doesn't get it. Someone should suggest the following as mandatory viewing as his primer. http://www.endofsuburbia.com/ Hybrids won't solve the problems we face, especially when they're now being engineered in ways that compromise their previous efficiency for acceleration capability. Even alternative fuels won't solve them. We've reached peak production at the global scale. The only way for demand to match reductions in production is immediately reduced consumption. That means no ten year lag in waiting for hybrid market share to increase. That means no ten year lag in biofuels to garner market share. What it does mean is an immediate concerted effort between conservation, overnight retooling of Detroit for efficiency (or else the big three further lose market share and quickly go belly up) and alt fuels. Anything less than a three pronged attack means a devastating change in the American lifestyle. And we damned sure wouldn't want to disappoint or upset George Junior or Blaire by having to alter the overall American/Western lifestyle in order to prevent suburban collapse and general economic pandemonium, now would we? Todd Swearingen Snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Nah, we'll take magical thinking and chaos over reality and reasonably
orderly energy planning every time.
You watch.
Mike Weaver for President
Magical Thinking Party
2 SUVs and a Monster house for every American!
Appal Energy wrote:
You're correct Mike,
Jimmy Carter "got it."
But it wasn't what he "got" that sent the economy into a tailspin. Yes,
it was partly his fault for failing to pay strict attention to some of
the economic indicators soon enough. But the market took a dive largely
due to the shakeup from the Arab oil embargo. And when you throw the
waning confidence factor resulting from that, a hostage crisis, a failed
rescue attempt and then a charletan such as Reagan who promises two
fresh baked pies on every window sill, you have a recipe for a one term
president.
Sad part is? The US economy continued to grow for nearly fifteen years
after the nation began its intense conservation endeavors in the late
'70s - all without increasing its oil imports by a drop for the first
ten to twelve years of that period.
Think about all that new growth and the massive amounts of energy it
took to create it. But all those gains were achieved primarily as a
result of conservation and efficiency ("negawatts"). Too bad it was
Reagan and Bush who received the free ride from that market change.
Same thing could happen again, or at least things could stabilize
considerably. Unfortunately, George Bush wouldn't know what a "cardigan
moment" was, much less initiate one, even if his life depended upon it.
The suggestion from this vantage point is that you grab the stand-up
straps on this bus and prepare yourself for a hasty stop over the next
few years. Bush's successor will be spending an inordinate amount of
time the next four years fighting to turn markets back in the direction
that Carter started.
And then what? The "moral" minority will manage to stuff the ballot box
and install another puppet or two for twelve more years and run this
ship of state aground all over again?
Gets a little old. Just waiting to see how many in this gene pool are
smart enough to figure it out and not board the Titanic for yet another
ride. You'd think they would have had a clue after the first trillion
dollar record of national debt.
Todd Swearingen
Oh, he probably gets it. But saying and being drummed out of office
is something else again. Jimmy Cartet "got it" and look what happened
to him.
It's the vast majority of US citizens that "don't get it" and won't,
until they have to. People in the US are mad about gas prices, but
they are not mad they we have no energy policy.
Tom Irwin wrote:
Hi Todd,
I vote for the devestating change to the American life style. Maybe
everyone could just have a life.
Tom Irwin
*From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
*To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
*Sent:* Sun, 09 Oct 2005 01:34:54 -0300
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In
Hybrids "on threshold of commercialization"
Sorry folks. But Senator Lieberman just doesn't get it.
Someone should suggest the following as mandatory viewing as his
primer.
http://www.endofsuburbia.com/
Hybrids won't solve the problems we face, especially when they're
now
being engineered in ways that compromise their previous
efficiency for
acceleration capability. Even alternative fuels won't solve them.
We've
reached peak production at the global scale. The only way for
demand to
match reductions in production is immediately reduced
consumption. That
means no ten year lag in waiting for hybrid market share to
increase.
That means no ten year lag in biofuels to garner market share.
What it does mean is an immediate concerted effort between
conservation,
overnight retooling of Detroit for efficiency (or else the big three
further lose market share and quickly go belly up) and alt fuels.
Anything less than a three pronged attack means a devastating
change in
"the American lifestyle."
And we damned sure wouldn't want to disappoint or upset George
Junior or
Blaire by having to alter the overall American/Western lifestyle in
order to prevent suburban collapse and general economic pandemonium,
now would we?
Todd Swearingen
Snip
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Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Hi Todd, I vote for the devestating change to the American life style. Maybe everyone could just have a life. Tom Irwin From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Sun, 09 Oct 2005 01:34:54 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids "on threshold of commercialization"Sorry folks. But Senator Lieberman just doesn't get it.Someone should suggest the following as mandatory viewing as his primer.http://www.endofsuburbia.com/Hybrids won't solve the problems we face, especially when they're now being engineered in ways that compromise their previous efficiency for acceleration capability. Even alternative fuels won't solve them. We've reached peak production at the global scale. The only way for demand to match reductions in production is immediately reduced consumption. That means no ten year lag in waiting for hybrid market share to increase. That means no ten year lag in biofuels to garner market share.What it does mean is an immediate concerted effort between conservation, overnight retooling of Detroit for efficiency (or else the big three further lose market share and quickly go belly up) and alt fuels. Anything less than a three pronged attack means a devastating change in "the American lifestyle."And we damned sure wouldn't want to disappoint or upset George Junior or Blaire by having to alter the overall American/Western lifestyle in order to prevent suburban collapse and general economic pandemonium, now would we?Todd SwearingenSnip___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Hi Tom, I don't think it would be every one, just poor folks like me that couldn't compete for the resources that the rich folks buy it without even thinking past ...oh my, I should invest in oil stocks, I must speak with my broker, that reminds me to get the oil changed in the hummer while I'm at it. Heh Heh well thats what it feels like from my perspective. Jim Wisdom to all Tom Irwin wrote: Hi Todd, I vote for the devestating change to the American life style. Maybe everyone could just have a life. Tom Irwin *From:* Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org *Sent:* Sun, 09 Oct 2005 01:34:54 -0300 *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization Sorry folks. But Senator Lieberman just doesn't get it. Someone should suggest the following as mandatory viewing as his primer. http://www.endofsuburbia.com/ Hybrids won't solve the problems we face, especially when they're now being engineered in ways that compromise their previous efficiency for acceleration capability. Even alternative fuels won't solve them. We've reached peak production at the global scale. The only way for demand to match reductions in production is immediately reduced consumption. That means no ten year lag in waiting for hybrid market share to increase. That means no ten year lag in biofuels to garner market share. What it does mean is an immediate concerted effort between conservation, overnight retooling of Detroit for efficiency (or else the big three further lose market share and quickly go belly up) and alt fuels. Anything less than a three pronged attack means a devastating change in the American lifestyle. And we damned sure wouldn't want to disappoint or upset George Junior or Blaire by having to alter the overall American/Western lifestyle in order to prevent suburban collapse and general economic pandemonium, now would we? Todd Swearingen Snip ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Sen. Lieberman plans biofuel PHEV bill: legislative breakthrough This is by far the most specific and far-reaching proposal to date. -- Press release followed by news story: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/169 -- Speech excerpts, outline of plan and full text of speech: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/170 (WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO FORWARD) EXCERPTS This reality is bipartisan. My staff and I have spent as much time talking about these proposals with Republicans as with Democrats. My colleagues Senators Sam Brownback of Kansas and Evan Bayh of Indiana are particularly interested in setting America free from foreign oil dependence. We are ready to get serious, set the serious goals that eluded us in the past and take the bold steps necessary to reach those goals. ... we get the flexibility to power a car with fuel made from corn, prairie grass, or agricultural waste from our own heartland that will cost a lot less than gasoline does today Making them flexible fuel cars, as Ive already said, can save us more than 2 million barrels of gasoline a day. But we can do even better dramatically better with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours when power is in surplus and cheaper would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. This isnt pie in the sky. These vehicles could be in your garage within a couple of years. Some of the incentives for achieving this were included in the Energy bill signed into law in August. But they did not go nearly far enough. We need to couple these incentives with real performance standards and sales requirements to ensure that as soon as possible new cars are running not just on gasoline but on biofuels and electricity. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Founder California Cars Initiative http://www.calcars.org http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/power -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Well this would sure help the coal and nuclear industries out with the hybrids. If the power was from wind and methane digester great, otherwise we would just get the rest of the carbon freed up in the air -no? I like the biofuel idea though! or am I off base? Felix Kramer wrote: Sen. Lieberman plans biofuel PHEV bill: legislative breakthrough This is by far the most specific and far-reaching proposal to date. -- Press release followed by news story: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/169 -- Speech excerpts, outline of plan and full text of speech: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/170 (WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO FORWARD) EXCERPTS This reality is bipartisan. My staff and I have spent as much time talking about these proposals with Republicans as with Democrats. My colleagues Senators Sam Brownback of Kansas and Evan Bayh of Indiana are particularly interested in setting America free from foreign oil dependence. We are ready to get serious, set the serious goals that eluded us in the past and take the bold steps necessary to reach those goals. ... we get the flexibility to power a car with fuel made from corn, prairie grass, or agricultural waste from our own heartland that will cost a lot less than gasoline does today Making them flexible fuel cars, as I’ve already said, can save us more than 2 million barrels of gasoline a day. But we can do even better – dramatically better – with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours –when power is in surplus and cheaper – would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. This isn’t pie in the sky. These vehicles could be in your garage within a couple of years. Some of the incentives for achieving this were included in the Energy bill signed into law in August. But they did not go nearly far enough. We need to couple these incentives with real performance standards and sales requirements to ensure that as soon as possible new cars are running not just on gasoline but on biofuels and electricity. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Founder California Cars Initiative http://www.calcars.org http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/power -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Sen. Lieberman: Biofuel + Plug-In Hybrids on threshold of commercialization
Sorry folks. But Senator Lieberman just doesn't get it. Someone should suggest the following as mandatory viewing as his primer. http://www.endofsuburbia.com/ Hybrids won't solve the problems we face, especially when they're now being engineered in ways that compromise their previous efficiency for acceleration capability. Even alternative fuels won't solve them. We've reached peak production at the global scale. The only way for demand to match reductions in production is immediately reduced consumption. That means no ten year lag in waiting for hybrid market share to increase. That means no ten year lag in biofuels to garner market share. What it does mean is an immediate concerted effort between conservation, overnight retooling of Detroit for efficiency (or else the big three further lose market share and quickly go belly up) and alt fuels. Anything less than a three pronged attack means a devastating change in the American lifestyle. And we damned sure wouldn't want to disappoint or upset George Junior or Blaire by having to alter the overall American/Western lifestyle in order to prevent suburban collapse and general economic pandemonium, now would we? Todd Swearingen Well this would sure help the coal and nuclear industries out with the hybrids. If the power was from wind and methane digester great, otherwise we would just get the rest of the carbon freed up in the air -no? I like the biofuel idea though! or am I off base? Felix Kramer wrote: Sen. Lieberman plans biofuel PHEV bill: legislative breakthrough This is by far the most specific and far-reaching proposal to date. -- Press release followed by news story: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/169 -- Speech excerpts, outline of plan and full text of speech: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news/message/170 (WE ENCOURAGE YOU TO FORWARD) EXCERPTS This reality is bipartisan. My staff and I have spent as much time talking about these proposals with Republicans as with Democrats. My colleagues Senators Sam Brownback of Kansas and Evan Bayh of Indiana are particularly interested in setting America free from foreign oil dependence. We are ready to get serious, set the serious goals that eluded us in the past and take the bold steps necessary to reach those goals. ... we get the flexibility to power a car with fuel made from corn, prairie grass, or agricultural waste from our own heartland that will cost a lot less than gasoline does today Making them flexible fuel cars, as I’ve already said, can save us more than 2 million barrels of gasoline a day. But we can do even better – dramatically better – with the plug-in hybrid that is just now on the threshold of commercialization. ...Plugging in your car during off peak hours –when power is in surplus and cheaper – would soon just become part of the modern daily routine, like plugging in your cell phone or PDA before you go to bed. And off-peak electricity can be the equivalent of 50 cent a gallon gasoline. This isn’t pie in the sky. These vehicles could be in your garage within a couple of years. Some of the incentives for achieving this were included in the Energy bill signed into law in August. But they did not go nearly far enough. We need to couple these incentives with real performance standards and sales requirements to ensure that as soon as possible new cars are running not just on gasoline but on biofuels and electricity. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Felix Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Founder California Cars Initiative http://www.calcars.org http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calcars-news http://groups.yahoo.com/group/priusplus http://www.hybridcars.com/blogs/power -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
