Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Vegetarianism is a cultural and social, rather than a biological, phenomenon. Anatomically and physiologically, the digestive organs of the human species are designed for both animal and plant foods. Moreover, a global cross-cultural survey demonstrates the fact that all cultures, past and present, have revealed a preference for at least some form of animal fat and protein and that none have ever been totally vegetarian -- Leon Abrams. The preference for animal protein and fat: A cross-cultural survey. In Food and evolution Toward a theory of human food habits, ed Marvin Harris and Eric B Ross, 207-23. Philadelphia, Pa. 1987 Price never found a totally vegetarian culture. Modern anthropological data support this: all cultures and peoples show a preference for animal foods and animal fat. -- H. Leon Abrams. Vegetarianism: An Anthropological/Nutritional Evaluation, Jnl of Applied Nutrition, 32:2, 1980. As yet, I have not found a single group.which was building and maintaining excellent bodies by living entirely on plant foodsIn every instance where groups involved had been long under this teaching, I found evidence of degeneration... -- Weston A. Price, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price, 1939; 1945 Full text online at the Small Farms Library: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_library.html#price Nutrition and Physical Degeneration by Weston A. Price, 1939, Paul B. Hoeber, Inc, New York, London Weston Price (1870-1948) was truly the Charles Darwin of nutrition. He discovered what health is made of, and proved it beyond any doubt. In the early 1930s Price travelled more than 100,000 miles to study the diets and health of isolated primitive peoples all over the world, at a time when such communities still existed -- people who were living in accordance with the tradition of their race and as little affected as might be possible by the influence of the white man. What he found makes fascinating reading, turning many of our modern ideas on their heads. Then Price compared these communities to other, less isolated groups of the same peoples, exposed to the trade foods produced by industrial society (processed foods grown by synthetic farming methods), in the shape of the white man's store. He found it takes only one generation of eating industrialized food to destroy health and immunity. But he leaves us with the promise of regeneration -- thwarted health can be recaptured. Full text online. See Journey to Forever's review of this extraordinary book. http://journeytoforever.org/text_price.html See the Weston A. Price Foundation for more information: http://www.westonaprice.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
We have a local shrub also (little man trying to be like ( liked) by George...) There is some GM in Aust, but it seems not to have a toe-hold. I was wondering, with our govt signing the US FTA (Free (as in not...) Trade Agreement) if the EPA laws that have been watered in the US will be introduced to Australia?? regards Doug On Wednesday 14 June 2006 11:20, Chris Lloyd wrote: But for the contamination: they are fed on genetically modified protein: would you trust it??) No, I do my best never to eat any GM products but it's not easy with the US pushing GM products and out stupid PM acting as Bushes puppet. Luckily there is a large proportion of the population that is anti GM and most supermarkets don't want to loose trade. One brewer even started using GM Soya in its beer, funnily enough consumption crashed. Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Hi DougIt's not a matter of if the EPA laws will be introduced in Oz but When.I saw a journalist on the telly the other night that said "what happens in the US follows on to Aust."We now have fire ants in Oz that came from 2nd hand Agriculture equipment imported from the Statesbecause when we complained that the quarantine standards from the States might be a bit slack the States accussed us of being difficult to get a long withnow we didn't want to offend our ANZAS treaty partner so we just deciced best we let them in.The same is going to happen with GMPityLeoDoug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have a local shrub also (little man trying to be like ( liked) by George...) There is some GM in Aust, but it seems not to have a toe-hold. I was wondering, with our govt signing the US FTA (Free (as in not...) Trade Agreement) if the EPA laws that have been watered in the US will be introduced to Australia??regards DougOn Wednesday 14 June 2006 11:20, Chris Lloyd wrote: But for the contamination: they are fed on genetically modified protein: would you trust it??) No, I do my best never to eat any GM products but it's not easy with the US pushing GM products and out stupid PM acting as Bushes puppet. Luckily there is a large proportion of the population that is anti GM and most supermarkets don't want to loose trade. One brewer even started using GM Soya in its beer, funnily enough consumption crashed. Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
I think the influence is more evil than ANZAS. I think the US has a stranglehold over our pollies. There was a rumour that the last time Australia stood up to the US, our $A nosedived. The rumour was that unless we behaved, it would keep going down. Look too at the rollercoaster ride of the $NZ. It has taken NZ years to recover. regards Doug On Thursday 15 June 2006 7:51, leo bunyan wrote: Hi Doug It's not a matter of if the EPA laws will be introduced in Oz but When. I saw a journalist on the telly the other night that said what happens in the US follows on to Aust. We now have fire ants in Oz that came from 2nd hand Agriculture equipment imported from the States because when we complained that the quarantine standards from the States might be a bit slack the States accussed us of being difficult to get a long with now we didn't want to offend our ANZAS treaty partner so we just deciced best we let them in. The same is going to happen with GM Pity Leo Doug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have a local shrub also (little man trying to be like ( liked) by George...) There is some GM in Aust, but it seems not to have a toe-hold. I was wondering, with our govt signing the US FTA (Free (as in not...) Trade Agreement) if the EPA laws that have been watered in the US will be introduced to Australia?? regards Doug On Wednesday 14 June 2006 11:20, Chris Lloyd wrote: But for the contamination: they are fed on genetically modified protein: would you trust it??) No, I do my best never to eat any GM products but it's not easy with the US pushing GM products and out stupid PM acting as Bushes puppet. Luckily there is a large proportion of the population that is anti GM and most supermarkets don't want to loose trade. One brewer even started using GM Soya in its beer, funnily enough consumption crashed. Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
We can't even keep our own currency up these days...the USD has steadily gone down. We're living on borrowed time (and money). What I can't understand is why a lot of the Commonwealth countries follow along by electing the pols the do - Oz, Canada and I don't know as much about the Kiwis - but when I meet Aussies and Kiwis and (Brits for that matter) here and abroad they seem so much more sensible than their leaders. There was a time when the US, (now sadly long past), DID provide good ideas and had many institutions worth emulating. Now I don't see why ANY developed country would march in our shadow. Weaver Doug Foskey wrote: I think the influence is more evil than ANZAS. I think the US has a stranglehold over our pollies. There was a rumour that the last time Australia stood up to the US, our $A nosedived. The rumour was that unless we behaved, it would keep going down. Look too at the rollercoaster ride of the $NZ. It has taken NZ years to recover. regards Doug On Thursday 15 June 2006 7:51, leo bunyan wrote: Hi Doug It's not a matter of if the EPA laws will be introduced in Oz but When. I saw a journalist on the telly the other night that said what happens in the US follows on to Aust. We now have fire ants in Oz that came from 2nd hand Agriculture equipment imported from the States because when we complained that the quarantine standards from the States might be a bit slack the States accussed us of being difficult to get a long with now we didn't want to offend our ANZAS treaty partner so we just deciced best we let them in. The same is going to happen with GM Pity Leo Doug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have a local shrub also (little man trying to be like ( liked) by George...) There is some GM in Aust, but it seems not to have a toe-hold. I was wondering, with our govt signing the US FTA (Free (as in not...) Trade Agreement) if the EPA laws that have been watered in the US will be introduced to Australia?? regards Doug On Wednesday 14 June 2006 11:20, Chris Lloyd wrote: But for the contamination: they are fed on genetically modified protein: would you trust it??) No, I do my best never to eat any GM products but it's not easy with the US pushing GM products and out stupid PM acting as Bushes puppet. Luckily there is a large proportion of the population that is anti GM and most supermarkets don't want to loose trade. One brewer even started using GM Soya in its beer, funnily enough consumption crashed. Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
But NZ did recover and is doing so well that a lot of our pollies are buying up land there ie Bob Carr ex NSW PremierDoug Foskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the influence is more evil than ANZAS. I think the US has a stranglehold over our pollies. There was a rumour that the last time Australia stood up to the US, our $A nosedived. The rumour was that unless we behaved, it would keep going down. Look too at the rollercoaster ride of the $NZ. It has taken NZ years to recover.regards DougOn Thursday 15 June 2006 7:51, leo bunyan wrote: Hi Doug It's not a matter of if the EPA laws will be introduced in Oz but When. I saw a journalist on the telly the other night that said "what happens in the US follows on to Aust." We now have fire ants in Oz that came from 2nd hand Agriculture equipment imported from the States because when we complained that the quarantine standards from the States might be a bit slack the States accussed us of being difficult to get a long with now we didn't want to offend our ANZAS treaty partner so we just deciced best we let them in. The same is going to happen with GM Pity Leo Doug Foskey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: We have a local shrub also (little man trying to be like ( liked) by George...) There is some GM in Aust, but it seems not to have a toe-hold. I was wondering, with our govt signing the US FTA (Free (as in not...) Trade Agreement) if the EPA laws that have been watered in the US will be introduced to Australia?? regards Doug On Wednesday 14 June 2006 11:20, Chris Lloyd wrote: But for the contamination: they are fed on genetically modified protein: would you trust it??)No, I do my best never to eat any GM products but it's not easy with the US pushing GM products and out stupid PM acting as Bushes puppet. Luckily there is a large proportion of the population that is anti GM and most supermarkets don't want to loose trade. One brewer even started using GM Soya in its beer, funnily enough consumption crashed. Chris.___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Hi Marilyn, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk wrote A friend of mine raises cattle on the highline in Montana. It takes 40 acres to support 1 cow. The land is useless for agriculture as it is too dry and there is no water for irrigation. Without cattle it would yield nothing to eat unless you want to munch on the native bunch grasses. Question for anyone who knows: Is it too cold for him to grow Jerusalem artichokes? Wrong- they take irrigation water to get a crop. I raise them. I've heard they take no irrigation and are very good for making ethanol. Marilyn ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
they are very good for ethanol, they have a mediocre average yield per harvest, but can yield 2 or 3 harvests per season which makes up the difference rather well. - Original Message - From: JJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View Hi Marilyn, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk wrote A friend of mine raises cattle on the highline in Montana. It takes 40 acres to support 1 cow. The land is useless for agriculture as it is too dry and there is no water for irrigation. Without cattle it would yield nothing to eat unless you want to munch on the native bunch grasses. Question for anyone who knows: Is it too cold for him to grow Jerusalem artichokes? Wrong- they take irrigation water to get a crop. I raise them. I've heard they take no irrigation and are very good for making ethanol. Marilyn ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.4/363 - Release Date: 6/13/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.4/363 - Release Date: 6/13/2006 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Hallo Jim, Wednesday, 14 June, 2006, 00:56:51, you wrote: J Excellent Piece Keith, I did enjoy it and must agree. J I may add to the argument that is stated, J primal conviction that killing is wrong. It is just plain wrong to J take another animal's life unnecessarily; it is bloody, brutal, and J barbaric. J If this is true then why is the Wolf wired to kill (among so many J others)? Some may even say that the wolf does not kill unnecessarily. J That is not always the case and has been well documented. Lets face the J facts the planet is a food chain that involves killing and we were once J a part of that in a big way. Only the protections of our technology can J take us out of the cycle where we are among the hunted as well as the J hunter. J Jim Are you saying then that human beings are on the same evolutionary level with wolves or other critters then brother? The planet is a food chain? OK, then is it your position that because the planet is a food chain that a bull, let's say, ought to trample a smaller animal or even a human being and consume them? The ought to be carnivorous or omnivorous because everything else is a potential food source? Or are you positing that we have the right to slaughter animals for food, sport, pleasure, whim because we happen to be a more highly evolved link in the food chain despite knowing that we now have the knowledge and ability to lead perfectly healthy and healthful lives on a vegetarian diet? And no brother, I am not trying to be confrontational and yes, I do eat meat, but your Lets face the facts the planet is a food chain that involves killing argument doesn't wash, at least not the way I read it. The implication of your argument seems to be necessarily as opposed to willfully. And if you wish to stand by your wolf analogy then there seems to be no reason for someone not to come over and kill and eat your parents, siblings, friends, neighbors, family, or you, etc. when they have a good case of the munchies. After all, we're talking protein here. Screw beans and rice. The only things which require justification are those things which are wrong, e.g., justifiable homicide. That which is right stands on its own. One would be better served to say, I kill and eat animals because I can. Simple, straightforward and honest. It might also serve to give an introspective person something to think about. Happy Happy, Gustl J Keith Addison wrote: http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.html The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View By Charles Eisenstein Most vegetarians I know are not primarily motivated by nutrition. Although they argue strenuously for the health benefits of a vegetarian diet, many see good health as a reward for the purity and virtue of a vegetarian diet, or as an added bonus. In my experience, a far more potent motivator among vegetarians-ranging from idealistic college students, to social and environmental activists, to adherents of Eastern spiritual traditions like Buddhism and Yoga-is the moral or ethical case for not eating meat. Enunciated with great authority by such spiritual luminaries as Mahatma Gandhi, and by environmental crusaders such as Frances Moore Lappe, the moral case against eating meat seems at first glance to be overpowering. As a meat eater who cares deeply about living in harmony with the environment, and as an honest person trying to eliminate hypocrisy in the way I live, I feel compelled to take these arguments seriously. A typical argument goes like this: In order to feed modern society's enormous appetite for meat, animals endure unimaginable suffering in conditions of extreme filth, crowding and confinement. Chickens are packed twenty to a cage, hogs are kept in concrete stalls so narrow they can never turn around. Arguing for the Environment The cruelty is appalling, but no less so than the environmental effects. Meat animals are fed anywhere from five to fifteen pounds of vegetable protein for each pound of meat produced-an unconscionable practice in a world where many go hungry. Whereas one-sixth an acre of land can feed a vegetarian for a year, over three acres are required to provide the grain needed to raise a year's worth of meat for the average meat-eater. All too often, so the argument goes, those acres consist of clear-cut rain forests. The toll on water resources is equally grim: the meat industry accounts for half of US water consumption-2500 gallons per pound of beef, compared to 25 gallons per pound of wheat. Polluting fossil fuels are another major input into meat production. As for the output, 1.6 million tons of livestock manure pollutes our drinking water. And let's not forget the residues of antibiotics and synthetic hormones that are increasingly showing up in municipal water supplies. Even without considering the question of taking life (I'll get to that later),
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Save the animals and stop wasting water by using itfor irrigation, legalize murder and encourage cannibalism. Problem solved, how's that for radical? Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
I find it interesting that some people think that it is morally wrong for humans to eat meat. I respectand understand some groups who choose not to eat meat due to specific religious beliefs. Humans are omnivores because we evolved that way. There are other animals that are herbivores and others that are strictly carnivores. Is it immoral for a lion to kill and eata gazelle? Of course not! Just because we are at the top of the chain does not mean that we have to ignore or repudiateour evolutionary reality, or feel guilty about it. On the other hand large animals are sentient beings and deserve tolive their lifein an environment that mimics their life in thewild until the time that they become dinner. David - Original Message - From: Kirk McLoren To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View A friend of mine raises cattle on the highline in Montana. It takes 40 acres to support 1 cow. The land is useless for agriculture as it is too dry and there is no water for irrigation. Without cattle it would yield nothing to eat unless you want to munch on the native bunch grasses. Kirkpan ruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear and respected Keith and our list members Well and thank you to bring again for old debate on the SACRED COW, which had very good impact , even though very hot controversial debate in our list last time .Let us again have good debate on this good topic as we do have several eastern , western list members of all culture and countries.I think this topic need not be considered off topic , but very important one related with sustainability and wish to thank for the same Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.htmlThe Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical ViewBy I will not contest any of the above statistics, except to say that they only describe the meat industry as it exists today. They constitute a compelling argument against the meat industry, not meat-eating. For in fact, there are other ways of raising animals for food, ways that make livestock an environmental asset rather than a liability, and in which animals do not lead lives of suffering. Consider, for example, a traditional mixed farm combining a variety of crops, pasture land and orchards. Here, manure is not a pollutant or a waste product; it is a valuable resource contributing to soil fertility. Instead of taking grain away from the starving millions, pastured animals actually generate food calories from land unsuited to tillage. When animals are used to do work-pulling plows, eating bugs and turning compost-they reduce fossil fuel consumption and the temptation to use pesticides. Nor do animals living outdoors require a huge input of water for sanitation. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Hallo Kirk, Tuesday, 13 June, 2006, 22:01:59, you wrote: KM A friend of mine raises cattle on the highline in Montana. It takes 40 acres to support 1 cow. The land is useless for agriculture as it is too dry and there is no water for irrigation. Without KM cattle it would yield nothing to eat unless you want to munch on the native bunch grasses. KM Kirk Justification again brother. My brother-in-law is a very wealthy farmer in Ohio. Buys, feeds and sells cattle for beef. He does till the soil, some 2,500 acres but he doesn't want the family telling anyone that he got free sludge from the Toledo, Ohio sewage facility which was chuck full of PCB and spread it over his entire farm and then grew crops on that land. He runs somewhere over 1,500 head of cattle and they exist in the most appalling conditions. For the sake of clarity I will use the vernacular here: they stand in shit up to their knees when they are in the older barns. In the newer buildings there is a tank which holds the manure which is liquified and spread on his fields. Each animal produces about 40 pounds of manure per day 365 days a year. We all share the water table in this area. Many of the animals have large open sores on them, damaged eyes or legs due to overcrowding. When my wife took our grandkids over to see his farm she did not know the conditions as she hadn't been to that part of the farm for years. My brother- and sister-in-law do not live where they keep the cattle. My wife was horrified and the grandkids sickened by what they saw. I asked my brother-in-law why he didn't just raise crops and he answered, Because I like cattle and being around them. His wife and kids are lucky he doesn't show his affection for them in the same way he does for his livestock. And he is a nice guy. I like him despite his overwhelming love for G.W. Brother, your friend and my brother-in-law made conscious choices as do we all. And yes, I eat meat and no, I am not holier than thou. I just like honesty, or I don't like sophistry (and I mean this in the way Friends use the word which is getting around something by making something less simple, or as I would say, by being less than honest and forthright-justifying something which is wrong), whichever way you prefer it. Your friend and my brother-in-law don't have to do what they do. There is always more than an either/or choice but we humans all too often do what is easiest (even if it involves hard, backbreaking work) rather than what may be best for us and the planet. Ah, well. :o) Happy Happy, Gustl KM pan ruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: KM Dear and respected Keith and our list members KM Well and thank you to bring again for old debate on the SACRED COW, which had very good impact , even though very hot controversial debate in our list last time . KM Let us again have good debate on this good topic as we do have several eastern , western list members of all culture and countries.I think this topic need not be considered off topic , but KM very important one related with sustainability and wish to thank for the same KM Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.html KM The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View KM By KM I will not contest any of the above statistics, except to say that KM they only describe the meat industry as it exists today. They KM constitute a compelling argument against the meat industry, not KM meat-eating. For in fact, there are other ways of raising animals for KM food, ways that make livestock an environmental asset rather than a KM liability, and in which animals do not lead lives of suffering. KM Consider, for example, a traditional mixed farm combining a variety KM of crops, pasture land and orchards. Here, manure is not a pollutant KM or a waste product; it is a valuable resource contributing to soil KM fertility. Instead of taking grain away from the starving millions, KM pastured animals actually generate food calories from land unsuited KM to tillage. When animals are used to do work-pulling plows, eating KM bugs and turning compost-they reduce fossil fuel consumption and the KM temptation to use pesticides. Nor do animals living outdoors require KM a huge input of water for sanitation. KM __ KM Do You Yahoo!? KM Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around KM http://mail.yahoo.com ___ KM Biofuel mailing list KM Biofuel@sustainablelists.org KM http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org KM Biofuel at Journey to Forever: KM http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html KM Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): KM http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Hallo Robert, Wednesday, 14 June, 2006, 01:21:48, you wrote: ...snip... rabr Hmm . . . Maybe that's not what the scriptures are referring to, rabr anyway. Maybe I'd better go back and read that verse again. And then, rabr isn't there something about fishermen spreading nets along the River of rabr Life in the book of Ezekiel? Hmm . . . So it's morally ok to eat rabr fish, but not cow, or turkey? Didn't Jesus eat lamb? Oh, the moral rabr dilemma! ...snip... I don't remember reading where it says they were right in doing it, just that it was done. Necessity and local customs/usage don't make something moral. Expedient and justifiable perhaps, but not moral. hehehe ;o) Happy Happy, Gustl -- Je mehr wir haben, desto mehr fordert Gott von uns. We can't change the winds but we can adjust our sails. The safest road to Hell is the gradual one - the gentle slope, soft underfoot, without sudden turnings, without milestones, without signposts. C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters Es gibt Wahrheiten, die so sehr auf der Straße liegen, daß sie gerade deshalb von der gewöhnlichen Welt nicht gesehen oder wenigstens nicht erkannt werden. Those who dance are considered insane by those who can't hear the music. George Carlin The best portion of a good man's life - His little, nameless, unremembered acts of kindness and of love. William Wordsworth ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
On Wednesday 14 June 2006 6:36, Chris Lloyd wrote: Save the animals and stop wasting water by using it for irrigation, legalize murder and encourage cannibalism. Problem solved, how's that for radical? Chris. the fattest, juiciest ones come from southern N America! (But for the contamination: they are fed on genetically modified protein: would you trust it??) regards An Aussie who likes a reasonable amount of our grass fed beef! ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
chem.dd wrote: I find it interesting that some people think that it is morally wrong for humans to eat meat. I respect and understand some groups who choose not to eat meat due to specific religious beliefs. Humans are omnivores because we evolved that way. There are other animals that are herbivores and others that are strictly carnivores. Is it immoral for a lion to kill and eat a gazelle? Of course not! Just because we are at the top of the chain does not mean that we have to ignore or repudiate our evolutionary reality, or feel guilty about it. On the other hand large animals are sentient beings and deserve to live their life in an environment that mimics their life in the wild until the time that they become dinner. David Perhaps one day it will become apparent that there is no top of the food chain, but is a cycle, like everything else in nature. Germs, bacteria, worms, etc. will eventually find sustenance among those species that are now considered the top of the food chain. Excepting of course in those places in which we have extracted ourselves from the circle of life, treating a dead body with preservatives to keep the worms and beetles etc. from feasting on a body after life has left it. Having been a vegetarian for over 20 years, I sometimes use a shock tactic to make people think, usually only after they try to entice me with a steak or hamburger, (I think they're trying to get a reaction out of me in the first place...) and respond to them, Meat is meat, and burying humans is a waste of food. They usually quit trying to get me to eat meat. It's not like I try to convince them that they are wrong, it's a personal thing for me, and I keep it that way. My dogs eat meat, and I will do nothing to change that, because it's who they are... I'm a vegetarian, because that's who I am. My friends are omnivores, because that's who they are. I think it's a waste of my time to try to change anyone but myself, and then, only when I find something that needs a change... doug swanson -- Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
But for the contamination: they are fed on genetically modified protein: would you trust it??) No, I do my best never to eat any GM products but it's not easy with the US pushing GM products and out stupid PM acting as Bushes puppet. Luckily there is a large proportion of the population that is anti GM and most supermarkets don't want to loose trade. One brewer even started using GM Soya in its beer, funnily enough consumption crashed. Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
keep up the boycott - otherwise we'll never learn. Chris Lloyd wrote: But for the contamination: they are fed on genetically modified protein: would you trust it??) No, I do my best never to eat any GM products but it's not easy with the US pushing GM products and out stupid PM acting as Bushes puppet. Luckily there is a large proportion of the population that is anti GM and most supermarkets don't want to loose trade. One brewer even started using GM Soya in its beer, funnily enough consumption crashed. Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
I think overall Darwin, or the publishers, got it wrong, the green slime is at the top and the upper class Englishman, plus a few others, at the bottom, for some reason it got inverted in the printed or remembered versions, or was it just too darn much? Several millenium and what does the world have today that it didn't at the start in the way of harmony. So many arenas show a backwards slide. Go slime go. Doug chem.dd wrote: I find it interesting that some people think that it is morally wrong for humans to eat meat. I respect and understand some groups who choose not to eat meat due to specific religious beliefs. Humans are omnivores because we evolved that way. There are other animals that are herbivores and others that are strictly carnivores. Is it immoral for a lion to kill and eat a gazelle? Of course not! Just because we are at the top of the chain does not mean that we have to ignore or repudiate our evolutionary reality, or feel guilty about it. On the other hand large animals are sentient beings and deserve to live their life in an environment that mimics their life in the wild until the time that they become dinner. David Perhaps one day it will become apparent that there is no top of the food chain, but is a cycle, like everything else in nature. Germs, bacteria, worms, etc. will eventually find sustenance among those species that are now considered the top of the food chain. Excepting of course in those places in which we have extracted ourselves from the circle of life, treating a dead body with preservatives to keep the worms and beetles etc. from feasting on a body after life has left it. Having been a vegetarian for over 20 years, I sometimes use a shock tactic to make people think, usually only after they try to entice me with a steak or hamburger, (I think they're trying to get a reaction out of me in the first place...) and respond to them, Meat is meat, and burying humans is a waste of food. They usually quit trying to get me to eat meat. It's not like I try to convince them that they are wrong, it's a personal thing for me, and I keep it that way. My dogs eat meat, and I will do nothing to change that, because it's who they are... I'm a vegetarian, because that's who I am. My friends are omnivores, because that's who they are. I think it's a waste of my time to try to change anyone but myself, and then, only when I find something that needs a change... doug swanson -- Contentment comes not from having more, but from wanting less. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software. No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein. All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Kirk wrote A friend of mine raises cattle on the highline in Montana. It takes 40 acres to support 1 cow. The land is useless for agriculture as it is too dry and there is no water for irrigation. Without cattle it would yield nothing to eat unless you want to munch on the native bunch grasses. Question for anyone who knows: Is it too cold for him to grow Jerusalem artichokes? I've heard they take no irrigation and are very good for making ethanol. Marilyn ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
JA - They look like little sunflowers and they stand quite a bit of aridity. Not this much aridity. It would be desert where he lives except the long winter saves its little precipitation for warmer times. I asked him if he was ranching there just to prove he could.Kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kirk wroteA friend of mine raises cattle on the highline in Montana. It takes 40 acres to support 1 cow. The land is useless for agriculture as it is too dry and there is no water for irrigation. Without cattle it would yield nothing to eat unless you want to munch on the native bunch grasses.Question for anyone who knows: Is it too cold for him to grow Jerusalem artichokes? I've heard they take no irrigation and are very good for making ethanol.Marilyn___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Question for anyone who knows: Is it too cold for him to grow Jerusalem artichokes? I've heard they take no irrigation and are very good for making ethanol. I do not know about their temperature range but don't they require good fertile soil? Chris. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
http://www.biblelife.org/abrams.htm Anthropological Research Reveals HumanDietary Requirements for Optimal Health H. Leon Abrams, Jr., MA, EDS Associate Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, ECJC, University System of Georgia, Swainsboro, Georgia. Journal of Applied Nutrition, 1982, 16:1:38-45 Reprinted with permission of the author. Many claims are set forth stating what the natural diet of humans is or should be, but in order to ascertain what constitutes the basic dietary requirements for optimal health, the problem must be approached from an anthropological perspective which encompasses the total dietary evolution and history of mankind, a scrutinization and syntheses of human diets from the earliest times to the present, the diets of mankind's nearest relatives, the primates, and cross-cultural dietary comparisons of primitive and modern societies. There are one hundred and ninety-two living higher species of primates in addition to humans. (30) Until recently, it was taken for granted that all monkeys and apes were vegetarians, but ethological studies (1, 2, 12) revealed that all primates, in their natural habitat, also eat small animals. The National Zoo in Washington attempted to breed the Amazon Golden Marmoset monkey in captivity, but failed until animal protein was added to their diet. (5) It had been erroneously assumed that they were complete vegetarians, but apparently they must have some animal protein in order to be fertile. With the addition of animal protein, they reproduce rapidly in captivity. (5) Until the research of Goodall (16, 52) it was assumed that Chimpanzees eat only plant foods, but she discovered that they kill and eat monkeys, baby baboons, and other small animals and concluded that there was a small but fairly regular number of them captured and eaten throughout the year. Gibbons, orangutans, and baboons also kill and eat small animals regularly. (35, 44) The simplest of all primates, the tree shrew, which resembles the supposed ancestor of today's primates most closely, lives entirely on small animals. Ethological studies have necessitated the reclassification of monkeys and apes from herbivores to omnivores, and indicate that all primates have a basic need for some animal protein in their diet if health is to be maintained. (1) The first humans, the Australopithecines (9, 11, 54) (and Homo habilis), who appeared around four million years ago, included food plants in their diets, but they apparently ate a large number of small animals and were scavengers; they ate the remains of any large animals they could find, and therefore were able to secure a large amount of meat. (43) Around one million years ago, man had evolved into Homo Erectur (Peking and Java Man), and had greatly increased his ability to hunt large game. His life centered entirely around the hunt for game (4, 20, 50). Following in the evolutionary sequence was Neanderthal man (early Homo Sapiens), followed by Cro-Magnon Man. (36) Again, there has been a progressive increase in the hunting technology especially for large game. The driving force that compelled Cro-Magnon man to all unpopulated parts of the inhabitable world was his quest for game. Actually, the disappearance of many game species, such as the wild horse, mammoth, et. al., was not due to climatic change, but to man hunting them to extinction in his quest for meat. (7, 28) From the very beginning, the diet of humans has been meat oriented, therefore the evidence seems to warrant the conclusion that our human progenitors, from the very beginning around four million years ago, have relied heavily upon meat as a major source of food; they were omnivorous, but the emphasis was on meat, not on plant foods. (7) Man turned only to agriculture, which began around 10,000 years ago, when he had largely exhausted the seemingly endless supply of game due to his ever increasing population. (7) Of humans some four million years on earth, 99% of this time has been that of hunting game and gathering wild plants. (21) And, when the animals had been hunted to either extinction or near extinction, then and only then did humans turn to agriculture and animal domestication. (7) However, when humans turned to agriculture, a large percentage of the crops was devoted to rearing domesticated animals for meat. Meat has been, and remains so when available, the choice food of mankind because it supplies all the nutrients, amino acids, minerals, vitamins, and essential elements necessary to sustain sound health. For example, the surest source of vitamin B-12 is animal protein. (2) No cultures or people in the world have ever been 100% vegetarians; however, a number, such as the Masai of Africa (25, 26), Plains Indians (7), the Eskimo (29, 42, 47, 48, 49) and the Lapps (34), in their traditional culture, subsist almost entirely on meat and have been very healthy. When they adapted to our modern diet which
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
http://www.biblelife.org/abrams2.htm Vegetarianism: Another View H. Leon Abrams, Jr., MA, EDS Associate Professor Emeritus of Anthropology, ECJC, University System of Georgia, Swainsboro, Georgia. Reprinted with permission of the author. Early Humankind Vegetarianism is a cultural and social, rather than a biological, phenomenon. Anatomically and physiologically, the digestive organs of the human species are designed for both animal and plant foods. Moreover, a global cross-cultural survey demonstrates the fact that all cultures, past and present, have revealed a preference for at least some form of animal fat and protein and that none have ever been totally vegetarian (Abrams 1987b:207-23). Current paleoanthropological research indicates that humans have been on this earth for some 3 to 4 million years. For over 99 percent of that time, humans were hunters and gatherers (Cohen 1977. 15; Johanson and White 1979: 321-30). From the Australopithecines to the inception of agriculture, humans gradually developed more efficient tools to obtain food, especially for hunting game. Homo erectus pursued large game, and early Homo sapiens, the late Paleolithic humans, were even more dedicated in this regard. Indeed, the availability of game may well have dictated human settlement patterns. As population pressure mounted in Africa, the original home of humankind, herds of game dwindled, forcing people further afield to follow other herds. This ultimately led to human settlements in Asia, Europe, the Americas, and Australia -in all of the continents except Antarctica. About 10,000 years ago, beginning in the Middle East, people finally started to raise plant foods because of their own growing number, on the one hand, and because so many game animals were scarce or had been hunted to extinction, on the other. And with sedentary agriculture came political organization and formal religions. Religion and Diet As people settled into sedentary agriculture, meat-eating prohibitions gradually became part of he tenets of some of their religions, such as Hinduism. Ultra-orthodox Hindus and Jains, for example, are strict vegetarians, but as anthropologist Marvin Harris points out, in earlier times the Hindus were beef eaters. Later, beef eating was restricted, primarily, to the Brahman caste; and finally, the practice became prohibited for all Hindus. Harris has argued that such a prohibition was the result of human population growth. Because cows were valuable as draft animals and as providers of milk and dung (as fuel for cooking), it was wasteful to use them for meat. In fact, Harris argues that the consumption of certain animals is prohibited in many cultures for pragmatic reasons (Harris 1977: 129-52) and that compliance is more likely when such prohibitions are codified as tenets of religion (Dwyer et at 1973:856-65;Mayer 1973:32;7bdhunter 1973: 286). Other religious groups that today adhere to some type of vegetarianism include Buddhists, Seventh-Day Adventists, and orders such as the Roman Catholic Trappist monks. Justification of vegetarianism on religious grounds may be because it is more spiritual, or because it is more in harmony with nature, or because of the conviction that all animal life is sacred (Abrams 1980: .53-87). Modern-Day Vegetarianism A phenomenal escalation of vegetarianism, which began in the 1960s, has occurred in the Western world and has had little to do with religion (Erhard 1973: 4-12; Sonnenberg and Zolber 1973). The new vegetarians include a wide variety of individuals with concerns ranging from what animals are fed and injected with to environmental problems and world hunger to the indictment of cholesterol and animal fats as causative factors in the development of vascular diseases, cancers, and premature deaths. There is also considerable variation in the practice of vegetarianism. At one extreme are the vegans, who exclude all types of animal protein from their diet and subsist solely on vegetables, seeds, nuts, and fruits. Moreover, their dietary beliefs are extended to other daily activities. Vegans shun clothing made of animal products such as wool, silk, leather, fur, or pearl (Erhard 1974: 20-7). They abstain from using consumer goods, such as soap or cosmetics made with animal fat or brushes of animal hair, and they refuse immunization from animal-derived sera or drugs, or toiletries whose safety has been determined by animal testing. Vegetarians toward the middle of the continuum choose a wider variety of foods and include certain animal protein foods in their diets. Lacto-vegetarians, for example, use dairy products; ovo-vegetarians, eggs; pollo-vegetarians, poultry; and pesco-vegetarians, fish. Some will use more than one type of animal protein foods, such as lacto-ovo vegetarians, who consume dairy products and eggs along with other foods. Opposite to the vegans on the vegetarian continuum are the
[Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.html The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View By Charles Eisenstein Most vegetarians I know are not primarily motivated by nutrition. Although they argue strenuously for the health benefits of a vegetarian diet, many see good health as a reward for the purity and virtue of a vegetarian diet, or as an added bonus. In my experience, a far more potent motivator among vegetarians-ranging from idealistic college students, to social and environmental activists, to adherents of Eastern spiritual traditions like Buddhism and Yoga-is the moral or ethical case for not eating meat. Enunciated with great authority by such spiritual luminaries as Mahatma Gandhi, and by environmental crusaders such as Frances Moore Lappe, the moral case against eating meat seems at first glance to be overpowering. As a meat eater who cares deeply about living in harmony with the environment, and as an honest person trying to eliminate hypocrisy in the way I live, I feel compelled to take these arguments seriously. A typical argument goes like this: In order to feed modern society's enormous appetite for meat, animals endure unimaginable suffering in conditions of extreme filth, crowding and confinement. Chickens are packed twenty to a cage, hogs are kept in concrete stalls so narrow they can never turn around. Arguing for the Environment The cruelty is appalling, but no less so than the environmental effects. Meat animals are fed anywhere from five to fifteen pounds of vegetable protein for each pound of meat produced-an unconscionable practice in a world where many go hungry. Whereas one-sixth an acre of land can feed a vegetarian for a year, over three acres are required to provide the grain needed to raise a year's worth of meat for the average meat-eater. All too often, so the argument goes, those acres consist of clear-cut rain forests. The toll on water resources is equally grim: the meat industry accounts for half of US water consumption-2500 gallons per pound of beef, compared to 25 gallons per pound of wheat. Polluting fossil fuels are another major input into meat production. As for the output, 1.6 million tons of livestock manure pollutes our drinking water. And let's not forget the residues of antibiotics and synthetic hormones that are increasingly showing up in municipal water supplies. Even without considering the question of taking life (I'll get to that later), the above facts alone make it clear that it is immoral to aid and abet this system by eating meat. Factory or Farm? I will not contest any of the above statistics, except to say that they only describe the meat industry as it exists today. They constitute a compelling argument against the meat industry, not meat-eating. For in fact, there are other ways of raising animals for food, ways that make livestock an environmental asset rather than a liability, and in which animals do not lead lives of suffering. Consider, for example, a traditional mixed farm combining a variety of crops, pasture land and orchards. Here, manure is not a pollutant or a waste product; it is a valuable resource contributing to soil fertility. Instead of taking grain away from the starving millions, pastured animals actually generate food calories from land unsuited to tillage. When animals are used to do work-pulling plows, eating bugs and turning compost-they reduce fossil fuel consumption and the temptation to use pesticides. Nor do animals living outdoors require a huge input of water for sanitation. In a farm that is not just a production facility but an ecology, livestock has a beneficial role to play. The cycles, connections and relationships among crops, trees, insects, manure, birds, soil, water and people on a living farm form an intricate web, organic in its original sense, a thing of beauty not easily lumped into the same category as a 5000-animal concrete hog factory. Any natural environment is home to animals and plants, and it seems reasonable that an agriculture that seeks to be as close as possible to nature would incorporate both. Indeed, on a purely horticultural farm, wild animals can be a big problem, and artificial measures are required to keep them out. Nice rows of lettuce and carrots are an irresistible buffet for rabbits, woodchucks and deer, which can decimate whole fields overnight. Vegetable farmers must rely on electric fences, traps, sprays, and-more than most people realize-guns and traps to protect their crops. If the farmer refrains from killing, raising vegetables at a profitable yield requires holding the land in a highly artificial state, cordoned off from nature. Yes, one might argue, but the idyllic farms of yesteryear are insufficient to meet the huge demand of our meat-addicted society. Even if you eat only organically raised meat, you are not being moral unless your consumption level is consistent with all of Earth's six
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
A friend of mine raises cattle on the highline in Montana. It takes 40 acres to support 1 cow. The land is useless for agriculture as it is too dry and there is no water for irrigation. Without cattle it would yield nothing to eat unless you want to munch on the native bunch grasses.Kirkpan ruti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear and respected Keith and our list members Well and thank you to bring again for old debate on the SACRED COW, which had very good impact , even though very hot controversial debate in our list last time .Let us again have good debate on this good topic as we do have several eastern , western list members of all culture and countries.I think this topic need not be considered off topic , but very important one related with sustainability and wish to thank for the same Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.htmlThe Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical ViewBy I will not contest any of the above statistics, except to say that they only describe the meat industry as it exists today. They constitute a compelling argument against the meat industry, not meat-eating. For in fact, there are other ways of raising animals for food, ways that make livestock an environmental asset rather than a liability, and in which animals do not lead lives of suffering. Consider, for example, a traditional mixed farm combining a variety of crops, pasture land and orchards. Here, manure is not a pollutant or a waste product; it is a valuable resource contributing to soil fertility. Instead of taking grain away from the starving millions, pastured animals actually generate food calories from land unsuited to tillage. When animals are used to do work-pulling plows, eating bugs and turning compost-they reduce fossil fuel consumption and the temptation to use pesticides. Nor do animals living outdoors require a huge input of water for sanitation. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
Excellent Piece Keith, I did enjoy it and must agree. I may add to the argument that is stated, primal conviction that killing is wrong. It is just plain wrong to take another animal's life unnecessarily; it is bloody, brutal, and barbaric. If this is true then why is the Wolf wired to kill (among so many others)? Some may even say that the wolf does not kill unnecessarily. That is not always the case and has been well documented. Lets face the facts the planet is a food chain that involves killing and we were once a part of that in a big way. Only the protections of our technology can take us out of the cycle where we are among the hunted as well as the hunter. Jim Keith Addison wrote: http://www.westonaprice.org/healthissues/ethicsmeat.html The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View By Charles Eisenstein Most vegetarians I know are not primarily motivated by nutrition. Although they argue strenuously for the health benefits of a vegetarian diet, many see good health as a reward for the purity and virtue of a vegetarian diet, or as an added bonus. In my experience, a far more potent motivator among vegetarians-ranging from idealistic college students, to social and environmental activists, to adherents of Eastern spiritual traditions like Buddhism and Yoga-is the moral or ethical case for not eating meat. Enunciated with great authority by such spiritual luminaries as Mahatma Gandhi, and by environmental crusaders such as Frances Moore Lappe, the moral case against eating meat seems at first glance to be overpowering. As a meat eater who cares deeply about living in harmony with the environment, and as an honest person trying to eliminate hypocrisy in the way I live, I feel compelled to take these arguments seriously. A typical argument goes like this: In order to feed modern society's enormous appetite for meat, animals endure unimaginable suffering in conditions of extreme filth, crowding and confinement. Chickens are packed twenty to a cage, hogs are kept in concrete stalls so narrow they can never turn around. Arguing for the Environment The cruelty is appalling, but no less so than the environmental effects. Meat animals are fed anywhere from five to fifteen pounds of vegetable protein for each pound of meat produced-an unconscionable practice in a world where many go hungry. Whereas one-sixth an acre of land can feed a vegetarian for a year, over three acres are required to provide the grain needed to raise a year's worth of meat for the average meat-eater. All too often, so the argument goes, those acres consist of clear-cut rain forests. The toll on water resources is equally grim: the meat industry accounts for half of US water consumption-2500 gallons per pound of beef, compared to 25 gallons per pound of wheat. Polluting fossil fuels are another major input into meat production. As for the output, 1.6 million tons of livestock manure pollutes our drinking water. And let's not forget the residues of antibiotics and synthetic hormones that are increasingly showing up in municipal water supplies. Even without considering the question of taking life (I'll get to that later), the above facts alone make it clear that it is immoral to aid and abet this system by eating meat. Factory or Farm? I will not contest any of the above statistics, except to say that they only describe the meat industry as it exists today. They constitute a compelling argument against the meat industry, not meat-eating. For in fact, there are other ways of raising animals for food, ways that make livestock an environmental asset rather than a liability, and in which animals do not lead lives of suffering. Consider, for example, a traditional mixed farm combining a variety of crops, pasture land and orchards. Here, manure is not a pollutant or a waste product; it is a valuable resource contributing to soil fertility. Instead of taking grain away from the starving millions, pastured animals actually generate food calories from land unsuited to tillage. When animals are used to do work-pulling plows, eating bugs and turning compost-they reduce fossil fuel consumption and the temptation to use pesticides. Nor do animals living outdoors require a huge input of water for sanitation. In a farm that is not just a production facility but an ecology, livestock has a beneficial role to play. The cycles, connections and relationships among crops, trees, insects, manure, birds, soil, water and people on a living farm form an intricate web, organic in its original sense, a thing of beauty not easily lumped into the same category as a 5000-animal concrete hog factory. Any natural environment is home to animals and plants, and it seems reasonable that an agriculture that seeks to be as close as possible to nature would incorporate both. Indeed, on a purely horticultural farm, wild animals can be a big problem, and artificial measures are required to keep
Re: [Biofuel] The Ethics of Eating Meat: A Radical View
JJJN wrote: Excellent Piece Keith, I did enjoy it and must agree. You and Keith are SUCH savage carnivores! : - ) I may add to the argument that is stated, primal conviction that killing is wrong. It is just plain wrong to take another animal's life unnecessarily; it is bloody, brutal, and barbaric. If this is true then why is the Wolf wired to kill (among so many others)? I once posed this question to my saintly grandfather, except I used the example of dinosaurs with big, sharp teeth. My saintly grandfather believed that killing was not the natural order of things, but resulted from the introduction of sin into the world. (This idea, by the way, is NOT supported in the book of Genesis. There's a passage in Romans 8: 20 - 22 that refers to the creation being subject to the bondage of decay that is often used to underscore the concept that killing ANYTHING, including Bessie the cow and Henry the rooster, is morally wrong.) So what do we do about Allosaurus, T Rex and the raptors that long preceeded the arrival of humanity on earth? Hmm . . . Maybe that's not what the scriptures are referring to, anyway. Maybe I'd better go back and read that verse again. And then, isn't there something about fishermen spreading nets along the River of Life in the book of Ezekiel? Hmm . . . So it's morally ok to eat fish, but not cow, or turkey? Didn't Jesus eat lamb? Oh, the moral dilemma! Some may even say that the wolf does not kill unnecessarily. That is not always the case and has been well documented. Lets face the facts the planet is a food chain that involves killing and we were once a part of that in a big way. Only the protections of our technology can take us out of the cycle where we are among the hunted as well as the hunter. There's a good reason I don't go into the woods! I don't own a gun anyway, and I don't eat anything that had brown eyes and a mom . . . I guess that means I'd probably taste pretty good to a carnivore, though now that I'm losing weight I might seem a bit bony. robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
