Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?
not just grains, but *whole* grains. beans and *whole* grains. and even then only certain combinations. not all beans will complete the amino acid set when combined with brown rice. of course, there are still more grains that those beans might be combined with, but i personally don't know of any. have you verified the protein content of the beans and cornbread combination your father so liked? i wouldn't have expected it to fit the bill based on what i know. regards, -chris ---BeginMessage--- Howdy Ken et al Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you want to eliminate meat from your diet, then you need to find another way of getting the protein meat provides. Actually, getting enough protein on a vegan diet is not at all a problem. However, you do have to eat legumes and carbohydrates to get a complete protein from vegetables alone. I think you mean beans and grains here. There are several traditional dishes where beans and grains are present. My late fathers favorite- beans and corn bread (he wasn't a vegetarian, but grew up dirt poor where meat was a luxury) Cajun fare- red beans and rice Native American- succotash and I am sure many others. The trick is to get the right complement of amino acids in the diet. There is much research going on every day to point to a potiential excess of protein in the average American diet but, I don't think that there is any definitive scientific proof to conclude either way on this subject. Even the USDA has recently produced reports stating that protein intakes needed to be curbed in the U.S. - keep in mind, I don't hold much stock in anything the USDA releases. The only real nutritional issue with a meat and dairy-free diet is a defficiency of the vitamin B12 which is only naturally available in meat. yeast provides B-12. We (humans that is) actually produce lots of B-12 via microbial synthesis in the gut, the problem is we don't absorb it. I have read that some B-12 is provided in the diet via fecal contamination. :( There are vegans who don't get supplemental B12 and are quite healthy. That depends. We store a few years of b-12 in the liver, but at some point one must get more. I get mine from Silk soy milk, though. Can I assume that the soy milk is supplemented with B-12 'cause it shouldn't be there naturally? -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ---End Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?
Hogwash. How many people have you known who suffer from Kwashiorkor http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001604.htm? None, I'll warrant. How many do you know suffering from heart disease, diabetis or obesity? 60% of the population. The US suffers diseases of affluence, not malnutrition. The combining protein myth was debunked years ago. Next I'll be hearing about how human beings suffer from cow's milk deficiency. Yeesh.* * [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: not just grains, but *whole* grains. beans and *whole* grains. and even then only certain combinations. not all beans will complete the amino acid set when combined with brown rice. of course, there are still more grains that those beans might be combined with, but i personally don't know of any. have you verified the protein content of the beans and cornbread combination your father so liked? i wouldn't have expected it to fit the bill based on what i know. regards, -chris Subject: Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat? From: bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 10 Jul 2005 13:25:36 -0500 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Howdy Ken et al Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you want to eliminate meat from your diet, then you need to find another way of getting the protein meat provides. Actually, getting enough protein on a vegan diet is not at all a problem. However, you do have to eat legumes and carbohydrates to get a complete protein from vegetables alone. I think you mean beans and grains here. There are several traditional dishes where beans and grains are present. My late fathers favorite- beans and corn bread (he wasn't a vegetarian, but grew up dirt poor where meat was a luxury) Cajun fare- red beans and rice Native American- succotash and I am sure many others. The trick is to get the right complement of amino acids in the diet. There is much research going on every day to point to a potiential excess of protein in the average American diet but, I don't think that there is any definitive scientific proof to conclude either way on this subject. Even the USDA has recently produced reports stating that protein intakes needed to be curbed in the U.S. - keep in mind, I don't hold much stock in anything the USDA releases. The only real nutritional issue with a meat and dairy-free diet is a defficiency of the vitamin B12 which is only naturally available in meat. yeast provides B-12. We (humans that is) actually produce lots of B-12 via microbial synthesis in the gut, the problem is we don't absorb it. I have read that some B-12 is provided in the diet via fecal contamination. :( There are vegans who don't get supplemental B12 and are quite healthy. That depends. We store a few years of b-12 in the liver, but at some point one must get more. I get mine from Silk soy milk, though. Can I assume that the soy milk is supplemented with B-12 'cause it shouldn't be there naturally? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
yo, i think you're over-reacting a bit. and you're dragging in something which is barely relevant. no one's talking about severe or extreme malnutrition. i wouldn't expect to ever meet someone here who suffered from K because there are very few people here who don't eat meat. there are a decent number of vegetarians in the u.s.a., but many of these self-proclaimed vegetarians in fact eat dairy, cheese, and on occasion even chicken, turkey and fish. those who do follow a truly vegetarian regime, educate themselves to do so correctly or don't do it for very long. we don't need links pointing us to issues which are tangential at best. please give us a link related to the debunking of the need for food sources of all the essential amino acids. i've never heard anything along these lines. i'd recommend for your part taking a look at this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?
howdy chris, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: not just grains, but *whole* grains. beans and *whole* grains. We could actually take the discussion further to stipulate _properly processed_ whole grains. Corn meal should be processed with alkali (masa harina) as I recall to to make the thiamin more absorbable, as one example. However I was referring to issues of amino acid composition, which isn't greatly impacted by milling of the seed coat. Granted whole grains are good for fiber, minerals and vitamin content, but something like 80 percent of the protein content of grains is in the endosperm. and even then only certain combinations. I went looking for amino acid composition tables of beans and grains, and could not find any table where an essential amino acid was entirely missing from a bean or grain of any kind. By combining beans (low in methionine, and threonine?) with grains (low in lysine) one comes up with an efficient diet. As I see it one could live on a diet of one OR the other. It would however be expensive so to speak. To get sufficient lysine for example from a diet of corn would require eating a lot more total protein to get the necessary amount of lysine. The other amino acids in the diet in excess of the necessary amounts would just be burned up as calories. And those are expensive calories. Plus the total load of calories from all the carbohydrate would tend to produce obesity I would think. other traditional dishes: tofu and rice bean burritos peanutbutter sandwich not all beans will complete the amino acid set when combined with brown rice. of course, there are still more grains that those beans might be combined with, but i personally don't know of any. hum, I don't don't know of any that can't have you verified the protein content of the beans and cornbread combination your father so liked? only anecdotally. i wouldn't have expected it to fit the bill based on what i know. the only thing I can think of to confound my assumptions would be issues of bioavailablilty, digestion and absorption, but not of amino acid composition. toodles -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves — Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
Hi all I think vegetarians have to ask the same question of vegetables I asked about meat: Which particular cow is that? How was it raised, what did it eat? Or chicken or pig or sheep. A single cabbage can contain more pesticide residues than an entire cow - there's stuff in it that shouldn't be there and you don't want to eat it, and the stuff that should be there often isn't. For instance... Effect of Agricultural Methods on Nutritional Quality: A Comparison of Organic with Conventional Crops, Virginia Worthington MS, ScD, CNS, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, 1998, Alternative Therapies, Volume 4, 1998, pages 58-69 -- Virginia Worthington reviewed available research comparing the nutritional value of organically grown and conventionally grown produce. She concluded that organic produce is nutritionally superior. She compared the composition of vegetables grown simultaneously under different farming conditions, conducting 41 studies with 1,240 comparisons of 35 vitamins and minerals. Organically grown produce was higher in most minerals and vitamins and lower in potentially harmful nitrates, which result from nitrogen fertilizers. The greatest differences among all vegetables tested were in magnesium (organic was 29% higher), vitamin C (27% higher), and iron (21% higher). In fact, organic food had higher amounts of all minerals tested, although the difference was not always statistically significant because of small sample numbers. Organic crops had 15% fewer nitrates than conventionally grown foods and lesser amounts of toxic heavy metals. Worthington also investigated the effect of routine consumption of organically grown fruits and vegetables on the nutritional adequacy of the overall diet. Using the USDA recommendation of five servings of fruits and vegetables a day, she determined that consuming organically grown produce might make the difference between a deficient and an adequate diet. See Is Organically Grown Food More Nutritious? Virginia Worthington, 1998 -- condensed version of Effect of Agricultural Methods on Nutritional Quality: A Comparison of Organic with Conventional Crops: http://www.mindfully.org/Food/Organic-More- Nutritious-WorthingtonNov01.htm Nutrition and Biodynamics: Evidence for the Nutritional Superiority of Organic Crops, Virginia Worthington MS, ScD, CNS, Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, July/August, 1999, Biodynamics v.224 http://www.mindfully.org/Food/Organic-Crops-Superior-WorthingtonJul99.htm Nutritional Quality of Organic Versus Conventional Fruits, Vegetables, and Grains, Virginia Worthington, M.S., Sc.D., C.N.S., 2001, Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine Volume 7, Number 2, pp. 161-173. Abstract: http://haly.ingentaselect.com/vl=1370482/cl=23/nw=1/ rpsv/catchword/mal/10755535/v7n2/s7/p161 Full report (Acrobat file, 176 kb) Organic Foods vs Supermarket Foods: Element Levels, by Bob L. Smith, 1993, Journal of Applied Nutrition, Vol 45-1 -- Over a two-year period, organically and conventionally grown apples, potatoes, pears, wheat, and sweet corn were purchased in the western suburbs of Chicago and analyzed for mineral content. Four to 15 samples were taken for each food group. On a per-weight basis, average levels of essential minerals were much higher in the organically grown than in the conventionally grown food. The organically grown food averaged 63% higher in calcium, 78% higher in chromium, 73% higher in iron, 118% higher in magnesium, 178% higher in molybdenum, 91% higher in phosphorus, 125% higher in potassium and 60% higher in zinc. The organically raised food averaged 29% lower in mercury than the conventionally raised food. See Full report Research by the Organic Advisory Service of the Organic Retailers Growers Association of Australia (ORGAA) compared nutrient content of organic and conventionally grown vegetables. Four vegetable varieties, tomatoes, beans, capsicums and silver beet, were grown on a certified organic farm using compost and soil regenerative techniques and were later analysed for vitamin and mineral elements. A similar range of vegetables grown conventionally was sampled and analysed from a supermarket. Results showed significant differences in mineral levels in favour of the organic produce. Calcium levels in some produce increased by eight times, potassium by ten times, magnesium by seven times and zinc by five times. See Food with Attitude, Permaculture International Journal (March-May 2000, No. 74, ISSN 1037-8480), p.27. Alex Jack, a health writer in Massachusetts, and Anne-Marie Mayer, a nutrition researcher in Britain (now at Cornell), separately compared government reports on the levels of vitamins and minerals in fresh food in the 1990s and from several decades ago. Both revealed significant declines in calcium and iron in a variety of raw fruits and vegetables. Each comparison also noted declines in other nutrients, including
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
In a message dated 7/11/05 11:49:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We could actually take the discussion further to stipulate _properly processed_ whole grains. Corn meal should be processed with alkali (masa harina) as I recall to to make the thiamin more absorbable, as one example. yes, this is what i was referring to in a previous post where i referred to corn being a source if prepared properly. masa harina (masa de harina de maíz) is made from the large-grained mexican corn (not the same thing as hominy) which has been cooked in a lime (sometimes ash) bath. though i seem to recall that the lime has a positive impact on the protein value as well, which is why i asked the cornbread question. cornbread is made with the more common (here in the u.s.a.) yellow corn, isn't it? and it's *doesn't* get the lime treatment, right? i wouldn't want to assume it's nutritional content to be the same. i may be mistaken about brown rice, but it has been my understanding that white rice does not make up for the essential amino acids which beans have in only small quantity. it's been ages, though, since i've felt the need to consult a nutrition chart. By combining beans (low in methionine, and threonine?) with grains (low in lysine) one comes up with an efficient diet. As I see it one could live on a diet of one OR the other. It would however be expensive so to speak. To get sufficient lysine for example from a diet of corn would require eating a lot more total protein to get the necessary amount of lysine. discussing this topic in terms of the complete protein set is not semantically precise, but is a far more convenient way of expressing it and conveys the basic idea. i've intentionally not gone in depth in this thread because i had the original poster in mind, not an in depth discussion. just trying to point them in the general direction so they can investigate further on their own, which is what they should do if they want to learn it well (and they should learn something like nutrition well). anyway, it's all good if we all learn a little something new (or unlearn certain equivocations!). -chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
My point was more that it's not rocket science to live as a Vegan. I did it for about a year and a half- nothing bad happened and I made no effort to combine anything. I was perfectly healthy, but I do remember being pretty hungry all the time. Now I'm mostly ovo (not much lacto - I'm allergic) veggy but I do eat raw fish because I like it. I also fall off the wagon more than occasionally. I do try to eat only humanely raised grass-fed beef. or don't do it for very long. * I personally have never heard of anyone expiring due to an improper vegetarian diet. please give us a link related to the debunking of the need for food sources of all the essential amino acids. i've never heard anything along these lines. *Sure, see below: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarian_nutrition http://www.all-creatures.org/mfz/myths-vegprotein-craze.html http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/history.html http://www.thenazareneway.com/diet/the_protein_myth.htm I could go on and on... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: yo, i think you're over-reacting a bit. and you're dragging in something which is barely relevant. no one's talking about severe or extreme malnutrition. i wouldn't expect to ever meet someone here who suffered from K because there are very few people here who don't eat meat. there are a decent number of vegetarians in the u.s.a., but many of these self-proclaimed vegetarians in fact eat dairy, cheese, and on occasion even chicken, turkey and fish. those who do follow a truly vegetarian regime, educate themselves to do so correctly or don't do it for very long. we don't need links pointing us to issues which are tangential at best. please give us a link related to the debunking of the need for food sources of all the essential amino acids. i've never heard anything along these lines. i'd recommend for your part taking a look at this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_amino_acid -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?
Howdy Ken et al Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you want to eliminate meat from your diet, then you need to find another way of getting the protein meat provides. Actually, getting enough protein on a vegan diet is not at all a problem. However, you do have to eat legumes and carbohydrates to get a complete protein from vegetables alone. I think you mean beans and grains here. There are several traditional dishes where beans and grains are present. My late fathers favorite- beans and corn bread (he wasn't a vegetarian, but grew up dirt poor where meat was a luxury) Cajun fare- red beans and rice Native American- succotash and I am sure many others. The trick is to get the right complement of amino acids in the diet. There is much research going on every day to point to a potiential excess of protein in the average American diet but, I don't think that there is any definitive scientific proof to conclude either way on this subject. Even the USDA has recently produced reports stating that protein intakes needed to be curbed in the U.S. - keep in mind, I don't hold much stock in anything the USDA releases. The only real nutritional issue with a meat and dairy-free diet is a defficiency of the vitamin B12 which is only naturally available in meat. yeast provides B-12. We (humans that is) actually produce lots of B-12 via microbial synthesis in the gut, the problem is we don't absorb it. I have read that some B-12 is provided in the diet via fecal contamination. :( There are vegans who don't get supplemental B12 and are quite healthy. That depends. We store a few years of b-12 in the liver, but at some point one must get more. I get mine from Silk soy milk, though. Can I assume that the soy milk is supplemented with B-12 'cause it shouldn't be there naturally? -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?
bob allen wrote: Howdy Ken et al Ken Dunn - CountyEarth.com wrote: I think you mean beans and grains here. There are several traditional dishes where beans and grains are present. My late fathers favorite- beans and corn bread (he wasn't a vegetarian, but grew up dirt poor where meat was a luxury) You are correct, my mistake. Can I assume that the soy milk is supplemented with B-12 'cause it shouldn't be there naturally? That is correct. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: even so, a few years ago i started cutting way back on my meat intake on the recommendation of my doctor. i enjoy it just as much as ever, but have found that i am now eating a much greater amount of vegetables, and considerably less fat intake. this without any conscious effort in that regard. i simply cut back on the meat, and the rest happened quite on its own. . . . It does happen on its own. You begin to look for other alternatives and suddenly you realize that the Earth's food diversity is truly amazing. I would guess that you have ventured out into new vegetables and that can only mean a greater variety of vitamins and minerals. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
hi, ken. sorry, did it sound like i was suggesting that non-meat/non-animal protein sources are hard to find? that wasn't my intention. they are, in fact and as you say, plentiful. though it is best to make sure you're getting the full complement of amino acids. this requires a bit of investigation and planning. here is my original post: ryan, if you want to eliminate meat from your diet, then you need to find another way of getting the protein meat provides. there aren't many 'veggies' (at least, as i understand the word) which contain much protein. the primary non-animal protein sources are cereals/grains, potatoes, beans (like black, pinto, soy), and the right kinds of corn (maize) when properly prepared. for the most part, none of these is sufficient in and of itself, since they do not contain the complete amino acid set required for the human diet. -chris b. best regards, -chris b. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: hi, ken. sorry, did it sound like i was suggesting that non-meat/non-animal protein sources are hard to find? that wasn't my intention. Well that is what I got out of it but. they are, in fact and as you say, plentiful. though it is best to make sure you're getting the full complement of amino acids. you are quite right still the same. Other than making sure that I take in variety, I have stopped thinking about it. My doctor can't tell the difference. I don't know whether that's good or bad. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
It's really difficult to watch some of those "undercover" videos of slaughter houses and laboratories without really examing the way you live and the way you think of animals. If everyone had to look at the animal they ate living and dying in little cages in industrial farms, full of hormones and antibiotics, I think things would be a lot different. Out of sight out of mind. I have to agree with what was said earlier, I have no problem with eating meat. I haveproblem with the system that delivers me that meat, and the impact that system has on the planet, as it's set up now. I enjoy pointing that out to people, too! When people find out you don't eat meat they automatically assume it's because you can't stand to have cute cuddly cows die. Its always good to intellegently set them straight. If there's one thing i constantly have to fight off, it's being labeled a spineless pot smoking hippie. It's an uphill battle for sure. Chris N. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 12:54 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] give up meat? "Google" on "vegetarian" and you'll find numerous sources of information on how to get anhealthful diet. I've been "vegetarian" for two and a half years now, although I have to admit I occasionally eat fish (sustainable types), milk (organic) -- although I usually use "soy" milk, eggs (free range, organic), and cheese. Maybe I'll take the leap to vegan-ism some day, but that's a tough move. I was motivated to go vegetarian by reading about the cruel "living" conditions in which most of our meat animals are raised, by trying to achievebetter health for myself, and to have less of an impact on the environment. I drive throughfarm country inMaryland and in South Central Pennsylvania fairly often, and I see many examples of unmitigated livestock waste runoff into the local streams, which then ends up in the Chesapeake to choke off life there. (Certainly there are other sources of nutrient load and toxic chemicals as well.) Most of the planted fields grow food for the meat animals as well. I'd much rather see that land used to grow foods for vegetarians and source plants for biofuels. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
Hi Chris, Bob It's really difficult to watch some of those undercover videos of slaughter houses and laboratories without really examing the way you live and the way you think of animals. I've been finding it more and more difficult. I'm not willing to turn away either. If you deal with livestock or any animals all the time, no matter what kind of animals, you know what they're really like, that they're fellow-creatures with their own lives and personalities, and somehow, that they're basically good. They're not just things to be used, or abused, at our convenience. It's supposed to be a sort of partnership. Everything about the industrialised system is just so horribly wrong. Okay, it's deeply evil, that's how I feel about it, and I've been feeling it more and more as the years go by, feeling it as well as thinking it and knowing it. I'm still having difficulty with the millions of birds that were wiped out in East and Southeast Asia during the bird flu epidemic. It's not whether it was necessary or not. It was brutal and inhuman. There was no sign that anyone looked at it from the birds' point of view, only the human risk and the financial loss. But you have to put yourself in the other person's position, walk a mile in his shoes. That's why we have an imagination and it's what keeps us human. But a chicken isn't a person, right? If you think that you've never kept chickens. Not a human, but I just don't think that's very relevant. Anyway I've known some animals that demonstrated repeatedly that they were more human than some of the humans were. We're all in this together, all we living creatures trying to go about our daily business on the face of this fair planet, we're interdependent. We're not more important, we're not the only ones that matter. Nonetheless, we small farmers and smallholders who keep livestock, no matter how well we may treat them, we still kill them in the end. Indeed we do, but this death has virtually nothing in common with what happens in the industrial slaughterhouses. Kim has discussed this here before, how she slaughters her livestock, and I totally agree with her. Give any animal the choice and see which they'd choose. If everyone had to look at the animal they ate living ... as such... and dying in little cages in industrial farms, full of hormones and antibiotics, I think things would be a lot different. I agree. Confronted with it head-on, with no chance to turn away, most people would change their ways, stop supporting it and start fighting it. But I believe that is happening and it's only a matter of time before it leads to real, lasting changes. Out of sight out of mind. Yes, but less and less so maybe. There are a lot of people who feel as you do, and who enjoy pointing it out. I have to agree with what was said earlier, I have no problem with eating meat. I have problem with the system that delivers me that meat, and the impact that system has on the planet, as it's set up now. I enjoy pointing that out to people, too! Don't stop! When people find out you don't eat meat they automatically assume it's because you can't stand to have cute cuddly cows die. Its always good to intellegently set them straight. If there's one thing i constantly have to fight off, it's being labeled a spineless pot smoking hippie. It's an uphill battle for sure. :-) Always easier to label-and-dismiss than to consider something that might threaten one's comforts. Creatures with no backbones fell down or hid from each other, giving rise to generations of small, dying creatures. Chris N. - Original Message - From: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailto:Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgBiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 12:54 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] give up meat? Google on vegetarian and you'll find numerous sources of information on how to get an healthful diet. I've been vegetarian for two and a half years now, although I have to admit I occasionally eat fish (sustainable types), milk (organic) -- although I usually use soy milk, eggs (free range, organic), and cheese. Maybe I'll take the leap to vegan-ism some day, but that's a tough move. I was motivated to go vegetarian by reading about the cruel living conditions in which most of our meat animals are raised, by trying to achieve better health for myself, and to have less of an impact on the environment. I drive through farm country in Maryland and in South Central Pennsylvania fairly often, and I see many examples of unmitigated livestock waste runoff into the local streams, which then ends up in the Chesapeake to choke off life there. (Certainly there are other sources of nutrient load and toxic chemicals as well.) Most of the planted fields grow food for the meat animals as well. I'd much rather see that land used to grow foods for vegetarians and source plants for biofuels. Trouble
Re[2]: [Biofuel] give up meat?
Hallo Folks, Saturday, 09 July, 2005, 03:44:18, you wrote: When people find out you don't eat meat they automatically assume it's because you can't stand to have cute cuddly cows die. Its always good to intellegently set them straight. If there's one thing i constantly have to fight off, it's being labeled a spineless pot smoking hippie. It's an uphill battle for sure. KA :-) Always easier to label-and-dismiss than to consider something KA that might threaten one's comforts. ...snip... KA Trouble is it wouldn't work, if you have a look at earlier KA messages in this thread. Maintaining soil fertility means farming KA with animals, and when it's done properly it's humane, sustainable KA and profitable. ...snip... We have, on and off over the years, raised our own meat, milk and eggs and even made our own tofu. I was a vegetarian up until about 1969 or 1970. My father was a butcher and before I left home (at 16) I was forced to eat meat but when I left I chose to be a vegetarian. I don't know how I came to return to eating meat but I did. When my kids were children and we were in the habit of keeping animals for meat and milk the kids liked to name the animals. I had them naming the cattle and hogs things like Essen, Speise, Wurst and such which are German words which are food related. I figured that way when it came time to butcher them they would not be in for too big a shock. It appears to have worked. The animals were loved and well cared for. Their end purpose, just like a field of grain, was however as food. The kids were taught to be kind to the animals, to keep them clean and well fed and watered but to not lose sight of their purpose which was three fold. First they were to nourish the family. Second they were to save us money (as we have always lived below the poverty level for our family size). Third they were to provide healthy food free from chemicals, medications, hormones and whatever. Keith is absolutely correct in stating that the animals have their own personalities. Even the turkeys and chickens do if you observe them long enough and are observant enough. Everything however has a purpose and the purpose of some animals is, in the end, food. What we can do, survive quite nicely on a vegetarian diet, and what we actually do are for many if not most of us worlds apart. As with anything else in nature, whether it be people or resources of one sort or another, we have a responsibility to have a reasonable and wise use and treatment of these things. Unfortunately we seem to choose waste, convenience and pollution over utility, conservation and wise use of our world and that which inhabits it. And again unfortunately we seem to not only reward these things but encourage them for greater profits of the few over the many. We drive our family farmers out of a livlihood, drive the small community based businesses out of business and force our people to become, of necessity, part of the low-wage high-profit machine. For me the debate is not about veggies/meat but about wise use. There is room for the meat eaters and the vegetarians. Without those consuming meat we would have a boatload of domesticated animals competing for the very things the vegetarians want to eat. How we got to this place and whether or not it is right makes no difference at all. Here is where we are and this is what we have to deal with. If the whole world became vegetarian overnight we would still have to figure out what to do with the animals and they would still die because they would be competing for the very food we need to survive. Animals don't have guns and anyone thinking that fences would work need to get out and around animals more. When they get hungry or want out you better be sure your fence is made of cement and plenty high. I have seen a bull back out through a barn wall as easily as Arnold Schwarzenegger would walk through a wall made out of a sheet of paper and two steers jump a five foot woven wire fence with a strand of electric wire six inches above that like they were deer and if they couldn't have jumped it and wanted out they would have trampled it down. Come to think of it I have seen a cow run through and trample down a woven wire fence and electric fencing as well. As with everything else it all boils down to restraint, responsibility, reason and discipline. The way the world works now may appear reasonable but that is deceiving. Economics says that paper and metal have worth but not so very long ago it was carved sticks of wood called tallysticks. It is all in how one looks at it. Change your perspective and your reality changes. Reality is, after all, something we have to agree on. Without that agreement it doesn't exist for us in exactly the same way it does for others.
Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you want to eliminate meat from your diet, then you need to find another way of getting the protein meat provides. Actually, getting enough protein on a vegan diet is not at all a problem. However, you do have to eat legumes and carbohydrates to get a complete protein from vegetables alone. There is much research going on every day to point to a potiential excess of protein in the average American diet but, I don't think that there is any definitive scientific proof to conclude either way on this subject. Even the USDA has recently produced reports stating that protein intakes needed to be curbed in the U.S. - keep in mind, I don't hold much stock in anything the USDA releases. The only real nutritional issue with a meat and dairy-free diet is a defficiency of the vitamin B12 which is only naturally available in meat. There are vegans who don't get supplemental B12 and are quite healthy. I get mine from Silk soy milk, though. Take care, Ken ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Fwd: [Biofuel] give up meat?
ryan, if you want to eliminate meat from your diet, then you need to find another way of getting the protein meat provides. there aren't many 'veggies' (at least, as i understand the word) which contain much protein. the primary non-animal protein sources are cereals/grains, potatoes, beans (like black, pinto, soy), and the right kinds of corn (maize) when properly prepared. for the most part, none of these is sufficient in and of itself, since they do not contain the complete amino acid set required for the human diet. -chris b. ---BeginMessage--- Ken, I am curious, what do you eat if you don't eat meat. I have been attempting to give up beef. Mostly because a good friend of mine runs a testing lab at a beef plant in Colorado. The things he tells me makes me not want beef anymore. Especially when he talks about mad cow. I don't think most Americans know what it will do, furthermore we think we are invincible. Do you only eat veggies, or do you eat meat substitutes, or both? Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ---End Message--- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
"Google" on "vegetarian" and you'll find numerous sources of information on how to get anhealthful diet. I've been "vegetarian" for two and a half years now, although I have to admit I occasionally eat fish (sustainable types), milk (organic) -- although I usually use "soy" milk, eggs (free range, organic), and cheese. Maybe I'll take the leap to vegan-ism some day, but that's a tough move. I was motivated to go vegetarian by reading about the cruel "living" conditions in which most of our meat animals are raised, by trying to achievebetter health for myself, and to have less of an impact on the environment. I drive throughfarm country inMaryland and in South Central Pennsylvania fairly often, and I see many examples of unmitigated livestock waste runoff into the local streams, which then ends up in the Chesapeake to choke off life there. (Certainly there are other sources of nutrient load and toxic chemicals as well.) Most of the planted fields grow food for the meat animals as well. I'd much rather see that land used to grow foods for vegetarians and source plants for biofuels. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] give up meat?
Ken, I am curious, what do you eat if you don't eat meat. I have been attempting to give up beef. Mostly because a good friend of mine runs a testing lab at a beef plant in Colorado. The things he tells me makes me not want beef anymore. Especially when he talks about mad cow. I don't think most Americans know what it will do, furthermore we think we are invincible. Do you only eat veggies, or do you eat meat substitutes, or both? Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
I'm not Ken, but I've been a vegetarian for over a year now. I just got back some blood work from the doctor and found not only weremy iron and protein levels normal, but I actually had a lot more of each than a normal person! I'm perfectly healthy and I didn't read any books or get any help. I replaced meat with lots and lots of beans! Every kind of bean, lots of tofu, soy products (morning star farms makes *good* veggie chicken stuff, "spicy black bean burgers", etc), tempe(sp?), dark green veggies, and cheese. I usually eat enriched bread/wheat products andthe rareegg. I drink Soy Milk nearly everyday with cereal (tons of calcium, protein, vitamins). Vanilla flavor is so good I don't see how anyone even drinks realmilk. I eat lots of potatoes too. You'd think they were filler, but a good look at the nutritional content and you'll realize how good they are for you. Oh, and almost forgot,I eat lots of nuts. I also take a simple generic-brand multi-vitamin and run/bike/horse back ride whenever possible. If I could get away from the meat substitutes (which sometimes contain egg), and the cheese, I'd be a ""true"" vegetarian, but my life at this particular time doesn't allow me to cook for myself very often or be super choosey about what I eat. Chris N. - Original Message - From: Ryan Hall To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2005 2:49 PM Subject: [Biofuel] give up meat? Ken,I am curious, what do you eat if you don't eat meat. I have been attempting to give up beef. Mostly because a good friend of mine runs a testing lab at a beef plant in Colorado. The things he tells me makes me not want beef anymore. Especially when he talks about mad cow. I don't think most Americans know what it will do, furthermore we think we are invincible.Do you only eat veggies, or do you eat meat substitutes, or both?Ryan ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
Sorry to butt in on your question, but I've eaten a (mostly) vegetarian diet since about 1970. The key to avoiding protein deficiency is to eat grains in combination with legumes. (Brown rice and black beans are a personal favorite.) Eating a wide variety of foods is essential, especially vegetables and fruits. I don't care for analogs (the Morningstar Farms patties, gluten glumps and other textured vegetable proteins) and don't understand why people need to eat them. The less prepared your food is when you buy it, the easier it will be to sustain health without supplements. I eat cheese, drink milk with my spicy Indian tea (Food Miles Alert!!!) and consume the occasional egg (though I don't like them) and fish (if there's nothing else, or if I crave it, which probably indicates a B vitamin deficiency) without any health related difficulties, aside from those related to normal aging, like the arthritis in my hands and knees. Eat well and exercise. If you want to avoid meat, be smart about it, but PLEASE don't insist that everyone else conform to your diet! If you REALLY want to be subversive, grow a garden. We had fresh peas two days ago, and I can attest that nothing tastes as flavorful as produce straight from the garden to the kitchen and the dinner table! robert luis rabello The Edge of Justice Adventure for Your Mind http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=9782 Ranger Supercharger Project Page http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] give up meat?
Ryan, As I mentioned, I gave up meat and dairy because of environmental reasons - as mentioned before not because meat is bad but, because the primary method by which it is raised in the U.S. is bad. I don't have a single ethical issue with eating meat. I actually like it quite a bit. Be that as it may, I originally tried all sorts of meat substitutes. I was also pretty fanatical about trying to balance my diet. I have since learn to eat as much whole foods as possible. I eat tons of whole grains and lots of beans. From there, I just try to eat as many different colored foods as possible (different colors mean different vitamins and minerals) and when I crave something, I eat it (except the meat and dairy). I can't eat dairy anymore anyway, it now gives me a terrible stomach ache usually followed by vomiting. I am pretty healthy. I haven't had beef in over 10 years and no other meat or dairy for over 6 years. I have begun eating eggs again mostly because vegan breads and pastas are so expensive. My family used to worry that I would turn green and die. But, they have since sort of forgotten about it except at holidays! ;-) Take care, Ryan Hall wrote: Ken, I am curious, what do you eat if you don't eat meat. I have been attempting to give up beef. Mostly because a good friend of mine runs a testing lab at a beef plant in Colorado. The things he tells me makes me not want beef anymore. Especially when he talks about mad cow. I don't think most Americans know what it will do, furthermore we think we are invincible. Do you only eat veggies, or do you eat meat substitutes, or both? Ryan ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
