Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation in copper
We at The Revenoor Co. have custom built stainless steel stills in the past and the beverage people just were not happy with the end result. So we bought them back and made copper ones instead. Terry Wilhelm steve spence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: copper is a time-honored material applicable for use in alcohol stills. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://24.190.106.81:8383/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: janandjoe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:50 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation I am currently experimenting with adapting copper cylinders which are heated via a coil using solar collectors, as a processing vessel for some stage of biofuel making. The reasoning is that I work for a company installing solar thermal systems and we usually replace the existing copper cylinders - their scrap value is minimal, so this is possibly a way to add some value to the copper cylinder and provide a simple vessel for small batch processing of biofuel ( eg.suitable for farmers) I realise that copper is not the most suitable material due to its chemical reactivity - but there does seem to be scope for its less problematic use at the heating stage.. Jan -Original Message- From: randallbarron1 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 February 2002 14:42 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation Okay, so solar stills are available, but do not produce a very high ethanol concentration with distillation. What about using solar energy to preheat your solution before it reaches a regular still. If you could preheat with solar power, less energy would need to be input it to the final distillation processes. Randall --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am new to this group so this may have already been answered before, but I have not been able to find any information on it yet. I keep seeing information about energy use for distillation being a limiting factor using ethanol as an alternative fuel source. Has anyone looked into using some sort of solar collector to provide the heat (or at least some of the heat) needed for distillation? Randall Hi Randall http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual15.ht ml Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch15 Chapter 15 SOLAR STILLS Also: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. - Do You Yahoo!? Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
I am currently experimenting with adapting copper cylinders which are heated via a coil using solar collectors, as a processing vessel for some stage of biofuel making. The reasoning is that I work for a company installing solar thermal systems and we usually replace the existing copper cylinders - their scrap value is minimal, so this is possibly a way to add some value to the copper cylinder and provide a simple vessel for small batch processing of biofuel ( eg.suitable for farmers) I realise that copper is not the most suitable material due to its chemical reactivity - but there does seem to be scope for its less problematic use at the heating stage.. Jan -Original Message- From: randallbarron1 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 February 2002 14:42 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation Okay, so solar stills are available, but do not produce a very high ethanol concentration with distillation. What about using solar energy to preheat your solution before it reaches a regular still. If you could preheat with solar power, less energy would need to be input it to the final distillation processes. Randall --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am new to this group so this may have already been answered before, but I have not been able to find any information on it yet. I keep seeing information about energy use for distillation being a limiting factor using ethanol as an alternative fuel source. Has anyone looked into using some sort of solar collector to provide the heat (or at least some of the heat) needed for distillation? Randall Hi Randall http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual15.ht ml Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch15 Chapter 15 SOLAR STILLS Also: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
copper is a time-honored material applicable for use in alcohol stills. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://24.190.106.81:8383/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: janandjoe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 5:50 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation I am currently experimenting with adapting copper cylinders which are heated via a coil using solar collectors, as a processing vessel for some stage of biofuel making. The reasoning is that I work for a company installing solar thermal systems and we usually replace the existing copper cylinders - their scrap value is minimal, so this is possibly a way to add some value to the copper cylinder and provide a simple vessel for small batch processing of biofuel ( eg.suitable for farmers) I realise that copper is not the most suitable material due to its chemical reactivity - but there does seem to be scope for its less problematic use at the heating stage.. Jan -Original Message- From: randallbarron1 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 February 2002 14:42 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation Okay, so solar stills are available, but do not produce a very high ethanol concentration with distillation. What about using solar energy to preheat your solution before it reaches a regular still. If you could preheat with solar power, less energy would need to be input it to the final distillation processes. Randall --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am new to this group so this may have already been answered before, but I have not been able to find any information on it yet. I keep seeing information about energy use for distillation being a limiting factor using ethanol as an alternative fuel source. Has anyone looked into using some sort of solar collector to provide the heat (or at least some of the heat) needed for distillation? Randall Hi Randall http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual15.ht ml Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch15 Chapter 15 SOLAR STILLS Also: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
Moti, just to add an idea to get cheaper vacuum, to use the gravity not only a big vacuum pump. In industry, to keep under vacuum something the usual way is to use a 11 ö 11.5 meter tall cylinder full of slow running water (called here water leg) usually a steel tube of 1 to 5 inches in diameter with a box or tray full of water at the bottom and some vacuum device connected to the head (with valves) to eliminate the non condensing gases ( CO2, air ) usually a vacuum pump or steam operated ejector, with running water inside tubes as heat exchanger conneted to the water leg, to condense the water/ethanol vapours. The ejector is a Venturi's pipe, that could work with any running fluid even with cold water from a small centrifugal pump. The level of vacuum obtained depends on the water temperature used for cooling (the lower the better) and the pump's or ejector's flow rate capacity, I add a kind of drawing, hope it goes fine. Best regards Juan ---I I to I_ _I from still pump I I I I I I I I I I 11 m minimum I I I I I=I I=I Tray -- De: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] A: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Asunto: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation Fecha: Sbado 9 de Febrero de 2002 2:43 PM --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you pumping the liquid solution, or just the vapors? Just the vapor is moving across. You have space over the liquid and the air is connected to a cold space that is lower so the cold air is stable. As the alcohol becomes dew the partial vapor pressure renews the concentration. A refrigeration system has its evaporator as the insulated trap and the condenser heat is put back into the brew. Or the cold trap is cooled by ambient or cold water. I have a big 2 cylinder air compressor I'm thinking of using. It has an upright 60 gallon pressure tanks, that I think would be an adequate condensor. I'll draw the suction from above the liquid in the fermenter, possibly through another tank(propane) then through the compressor itself, to the pressure tank. I will have one tank under vacuum, and the other pressurized. The vacuum tank(propane tank) should catch mostly water vapor. The rest should condense under pressure in the air tank. Liquids will go to the bottom, and compressed CO2 should remain a gas in the top. The CO2 can be routed back into the fermenter. Any further distilling can be done with either a Potstill or Reflux column. In my neck of the woods the great outdoors gets very cold in winter. Enormous heat sink. I'm in Minnesota, so I know what you mean there. It's too cold to start this project this winter. It gets cool enough at night in the summer time. Thanks for your input! Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Juan Boveda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Moti, just to add an idea to get cheaper vacuum, to use the gravity not only a big vacuum pump. In industry, to keep under vacuum something the usual way is to use a 11 ö 11.5 meter tall cylinder full of slow running water (called here water leg) usually a steel tube of 1 to 5 inches in diameter with a box or tray full of water at the bottom and some vacuum device connected to the head (with valves) to eliminate the non condensing gases ( CO2, air ) usually a vacuum pump or steam operated ejector, with running water inside tubes as heat exchanger conneted to the water leg, to condense the water/ethanol vapours. The ejector is a Venturi's pipe, that could work with any running fluid even with cold water from a small centrifugal pump. The level of vacuum obtained depends on the water temperature used for cooling (the lower the better) and the pump's or ejector's flow rate capacity, I add a kind of drawing, hope it goes fine. Best regards Juan ---I I to I_ _I from still pump I I I I I I I I I I 11 m minimum I I I I I=I I=I Tray The drawing didn't come through very well. I'm not sure I understand the process yet. Can anyone help us out? Is it somewhat like a siphon, with condensate in the vacuum tube forming the vacuum? Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
In this application I don't think a CO2 scrubber will serve any purpose. The problem with the CO2 is simply the volume that the pump has to shift not that we need to eliminate carbon dioxide. I think a faster pump would be a better solution and maybe more efficient energy wise than a piston pump. I would look along the lines of a vane pump from a dairy or methane farm ( the latter will be intrinsically safe which will be a consideration if this is a commercial operation) I would start looking here http://www.alfalaval.com/scripts/WebObjects.dll/ecore.woa/wa/showNode?siteNo deID=1261contentID=-1languageID=1 or here http://www.alfalavalagri.ch/ Regards John - Original Message - From: Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, 11 February 2002 3:05 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation - Original Message - From: Randall Shelley Barron Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 11:14 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation You could use a Carbon dioxide scrubber to remove the CO2 and then still be able to use a vacuum for distillation. I guess that begs the question, what handy dandy thingamajig do we use, to put together a CO2 scrubber ( sorry, I'm just not familuar with CO2 scrubbers, so while I know what they do, I don't know how they work or are made ). Greg H. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
As long as you are using a propane tank in the system. Have you considered using a larger tank. Using the air comnpressor draw a vacuum onto the tank and then use it as a stored energy source. A typical thousand gallon service propane tank with special plumbing and valving will retain a good volume of vacuum and then with special valve controls, you can apply it as needed. I had a 100 pound (20 gallon?) tank in mind, for a cheap version of a 'slobber-box'. A prototype will have to be done with readily availble(and real cheap) materials. The concept that I had and didnt fully explain was to use the large propane tank as a vacuum reservoir to draw the vapors into the tank to be drained from the bottom after they condensed. This would isolate the air compressor from the ethanol vapor. This would also (I believe) draw off and contain the CO2 for further processing at a later time. (Is there a ready market for CO2?) But it would need a large volume of ready vacuum at the beginning and continuously thro the process to keep the air compressor isolated and the various vapors contained. I am making the assumption that a pressure container will hold up to strong vacuum stresses. All pressure containers are required to undergo a inspection on a set schedule. The tanks that are not suited for re-certification for propane are sold as scrap metal and recycled. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
motie, a cold trap between the vacuum pump and the ethanol source should solve the problem of pump lubrication. adding an oil trap before the pump would also be advisable.imho. regards,roger --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], cornfed62 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As long as this is still in the theory stage: Remember that ethanol is an excellant cleaning solvent. You will need to pay extra special attention to your 2 cylinder compressor to make sure the essential mechanical parts are still being oiled. The ethanol vapor will tend to wash the cylinder walls clean and also contaminate your compressor crankcase oil. A thin oil film is necessary to maintain the seal between piston rings and cylinder walls. Once the oil film is gone, the rings will have metal to metal contact with the cylinder walls. You may be able able to keep it operation long enough to validate your theory. I hadn't considered that. You are correct. I'll have to give that some more thought. All others are welcome to contribute, too. Maybe an in-line oil-mister for Mechanics air wrenches? This is for fuel purposes, NOT drinking. As long as you are using a propane tank in the system. Have you considered using a larger tank. Using the air comnpressor draw a vacuum onto the tank and then use it as a stored energy source. A typical thousand gallon service propane tank with special plumbing and valving will retain a good volume of vacuum and then with special valve controls, you can apply it as needed. I had a 100 pound (20 gallon?) tank in mind, for a cheap version of a 'slobber-box'. A prototype will have to be done with readily availble(and real cheap) materials. Good inputs, Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
CO2 is a very cheap gas. You would need a great deal of it to be worth messing with. If you have a greenhouse you could vent it in there when the sun is up. Kirk -Original Message- From: cornfed62 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, February 11, 2002 12:37 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation As long as you are using a propane tank in the system. Have you considered using a larger tank. Using the air comnpressor draw a vacuum onto the tank and then use it as a stored energy source. A typical thousand gallon service propane tank with special plumbing and valving will retain a good volume of vacuum and then with special valve controls, you can apply it as needed. I had a 100 pound (20 gallon?) tank in mind, for a cheap version of a 'slobber-box'. A prototype will have to be done with readily availble(and real cheap) materials. The concept that I had and didnt fully explain was to use the large propane tank as a vacuum reservoir to draw the vapors into the tank to be drained from the bottom after they condensed. This would isolate the air compressor from the ethanol vapor. This would also (I believe) draw off and contain the CO2 for further processing at a later time. (Is there a ready market for CO2?) But it would need a large volume of ready vacuum at the beginning and continuously thro the process to keep the air compressor isolated and the various vapors contained. I am making the assumption that a pressure container will hold up to strong vacuum stresses. All pressure containers are required to undergo a inspection on a set schedule. The tanks that are not suited for re-certification for propane are sold as scrap metal and recycled. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
You could use a Carbon dioxide scrubber to remove the CO2 and then still be able to use a vacuum for distillation. The House of Jade wrote: Well, you are now talking about vacuum fermentation for which there is a patented process. Stripping off ethanol as it is produced solves one problem but the problem is that the vacuum system must deal with the massive amounts of carbon dioxide being generated by the fermentation process; so vacuum fermentation of ethanol never got off the ground. Yes, it is possible to use a rather high vacuum to break the azeotrope and obtain 200 proof (absolute, anhydrous) ethanol. However, high vacuum distillation is best carried out in borosilicate glass, as metal stills are subject to crushing. A lot of ethanol will be wasted out the pump unless you have efficient cold trapping (usually acetone/dry ice slurry) with its own dangers. So, molecular sieves are easier and safer to render 96% ethanol anhydrous. Also bear in mind that anhydrous ethanol will very efficiently soak up moisture from the air and return to the azeotropic state, so to keep it dry, you must handle it using special atmosphere-excluding techniques. Hope this helps... _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
- Original Message - From: Randall Shelley Barron Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 11:14 Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation You could use a Carbon dioxide scrubber to remove the CO2 and then still be able to use a vacuum for distillation. I guess that begs the question, what handy dandy thingamajig do we use, to put together a CO2 scrubber ( sorry, I'm just not familuar with CO2 scrubbers, so while I know what they do, I don't know how they work or are made ). Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], cornfed62 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As long as this is still in the theory stage: Remember that ethanol is an excellant cleaning solvent. You will need to pay extra special attention to your 2 cylinder compressor to make sure the essential mechanical parts are still being oiled. The ethanol vapor will tend to wash the cylinder walls clean and also contaminate your compressor crankcase oil. A thin oil film is necessary to maintain the seal between piston rings and cylinder walls. Once the oil film is gone, the rings will have metal to metal contact with the cylinder walls. You may be able able to keep it operation long enough to validate your theory. I hadn't considered that. You are correct. I'll have to give that some more thought. All others are welcome to contribute, too. Maybe an in-line oil-mister for Mechanics air wrenches? This is for fuel purposes, NOT drinking. As long as you are using a propane tank in the system. Have you considered using a larger tank. Using the air comnpressor draw a vacuum onto the tank and then use it as a stored energy source. A typical thousand gallon service propane tank with special plumbing and valving will retain a good volume of vacuum and then with special valve controls, you can apply it as needed. I had a 100 pound (20 gallon?) tank in mind, for a cheap version of a 'slobber-box'. A prototype will have to be done with readily availble(and real cheap) materials. Good inputs, Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
there are turbo yeasts available that will withstand 20%+. with sufficent vacuum you can boil water at room temp. i would question whether the yeast's ability to propagate (and therefore produce ethanol)would be affected by a low vacuum.i think that you are pursuing an interesting avenue of research. i will try to dig up some info on boiling ethanol at different vacuums. regards, roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Yes, interesting. Also, I think you can get 100% ethanol with vacuum distillation. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Osaka, Japan http://journeytoforever.org/ --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think yeast croak or really slow down at 14% or higher.(14% =28proof) That is also my understanding. The alcohol starts to kill the Yeast above 10%, and they are nearly all dead by 14%. On the temp side, 140F kills them off. That brings me back to the basis of my question. If I heat my fermentation tanks to (?)125F, so the yeast are still alive, how much vacuum will I need to apply to the tank, to start removing some of the Ethanol to keep the level below 10%? How much vacuum to do the same task at 100F? I would like to keep the Yeast alive and actively producing, without having to heat the massive quantities of water to do a traditional distillation. I'm trying to look ahead, at the whole process, and solve as many potential problems as I can see, before I start investing meager assets to it. I can overcome the heating problem rather economically. It's disposing of the heat after I've used it, that will be my shortcoming. I am trying to remove the heat disposal problem, by simply not putting the heat in to start with. I welcome any thoughts and commentary on my approach. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
Well, you are now talking about vacuum fermentation for which there is a patented process. Stripping off ethanol as it is produced solves one problem but the problem is that the vacuum system must deal with the massive amounts of carbon dioxide being generated by the fermentation process; so vacuum fermentation of ethanol never got off the ground. Yes, it is possible to use a rather high vacuum to break the azeotrope and obtain 200 proof (absolute, anhydrous) ethanol. However, high vacuum distillation is best carried out in borosilicate glass, as metal stills are subject to crushing. A lot of ethanol will be wasted out the pump unless you have efficient cold trapping (usually acetone/dry ice slurry) with its own dangers. So, molecular sieves are easier and safer to render 96% ethanol anhydrous. Also bear in mind that anhydrous ethanol will very efficiently soak up moisture from the air and return to the azeotropic state, so to keep it dry, you must handle it using special atmosphere-excluding techniques. Hope this helps... _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you pumping the liquid solution, or just the vapors? Just the vapor is moving across. You have space over the liquid and the air is connected to a cold space that is lower so the cold air is stable. As the alcohol becomes dew the partial vapor pressure renews the concentration. A refrigeration system has its evaporator as the insulated trap and the condenser heat is put back into the brew. Or the cold trap is cooled by ambient or cold water. I have a big 2 cylinder air compressor I'm thinking of using. It has an upright 60 gallon pressure tanks, that I think would be an adequate condensor. I'll draw the suction from above the liquid in the fermenter, possibly through another tank(propane) then through the compressor itself, to the pressure tank. I will have one tank under vacuum, and the other pressurized. The vacuum tank(propane tank) should catch mostly water vapor. The rest should condense under pressure in the air tank. Liquids will go to the bottom, and compressed CO2 should remain a gas in the top. The CO2 can be routed back into the fermenter. Any further distilling can be done with either a Potstill or Reflux column. In my neck of the woods the great outdoors gets very cold in winter. Enormous heat sink. I'm in Minnesota, so I know what you mean there. It's too cold to start this project this winter. It gets cool enough at night in the summer time. Thanks for your input! Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
As long as this is still in the theory stage: Remember that ethanol is an excellant cleaning solvent. You will need to pay extra special attention to your 2 cylinder compressor to make sure the essential mechanical parts are still being oiled. The ethanol vapor will tend to wash the cylinder walls clean and also contaminate your compressor crankcase oil. A thin oil film is necessary to maintain the seal between piston rings and cylinder walls. Once the oil film is gone, the rings will have metal to metal contact with the cylinder walls. You may be able able to keep it operation long enough to validate your theory. As long as you are using a propane tank in the system. Have you considered using a larger tank. Using the air comnpressor draw a vacuum onto the tank and then use it as a stored energy source. A typical thousand gallon service propane tank with special plumbing and valving will retain a good volume of vacuum and then with special valve controls, you can apply it as needed. I have a big 2 cylinder air compressor I'm thinking of using. It has an upright 60 gallon pressure tanks, that I think would be an adequate condensor. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
Okay, so solar stills are available, but do not produce a very high ethanol concentration with distillation. What about using solar energy to preheat your solution before it reaches a regular still. If you could preheat with solar power, less energy would need to be input it to the final distillation processes. Randall --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am new to this group so this may have already been answered before, but I have not been able to find any information on it yet. I keep seeing information about energy use for distillation being a limiting factor using ethanol as an alternative fuel source. Has anyone looked into using some sort of solar collector to provide the heat (or at least some of the heat) needed for distillation? Randall Hi Randall http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual15.ht ml Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch15 Chapter 15 SOLAR STILLS Also: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you make your solar collector strong enought,you can use vacuum distillation at solar collector temperatures to distill ethanol. regards,roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) There have been several mentions of vacuum distilation on the list recently. I'm still watching for some info on how to best accomplish it. My interest is derived from a potential evolution toward a modification of a continuous flow system instead of small batches. I would like to use a very rich mixture,(less water), and draw off at least some of the Ethanol with vacuum, to keep the alcohol content low enough to not kill the yeast, and without having to heat all the extra water. Can anyone tell me how much vacuum would be needed to remove at least some of the Ethanol, and still keep the temp below 140F? My thought is to pull a vacuum on the fermentation tank as it's working. Can the yeast survive that amount of vacuum? It takes much less heat input to distill out a 50% solution compared to a 15%. All thoughts are welcome. Thanks, Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
I think yeast croak or really slow down at 14% or higher.(14%=28proof) -Original Message- From: motie_d [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 1:51 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you make your solar collector strong enought,you can use vacuum distillation at solar collector temperatures to distill ethanol. regards,roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) There have been several mentions of vacuum distilation on the list recently. I'm still watching for some info on how to best accomplish it. My interest is derived from a potential evolution toward a modification of a continuous flow system instead of small batches. I would like to use a very rich mixture,(less water), and draw off at least some of the Ethanol with vacuum, to keep the alcohol content low enough to not kill the yeast, and without having to heat all the extra water. Can anyone tell me how much vacuum would be needed to remove at least some of the Ethanol, and still keep the temp below 140F? My thought is to pull a vacuum on the fermentation tank as it's working. Can the yeast survive that amount of vacuum? It takes much less heat input to distill out a 50% solution compared to a 15%. All thoughts are welcome. Thanks, Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.314 / Virus Database: 175 - Release Date: 1/11/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 2/8/2002 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think yeast croak or really slow down at 14% or higher.(14% =28proof) That is also my understanding. The alcohol starts to kill the Yeast above 10%, and they are nearly all dead by 14%. On the temp side, 140F kills them off. That brings me back to the basis of my question. If I heat my fermentation tanks to (?)125F, so the yeast are still alive, how much vacuum will I need to apply to the tank, to start removing some of the Ethanol to keep the level below 10%? How much vacuum to do the same task at 100F? I would like to keep the Yeast alive and actively producing, without having to heat the massive quantities of water to do a traditional distillation. I'm trying to look ahead, at the whole process, and solve as many potential problems as I can see, before I start investing meager assets to it. I can overcome the heating problem rather economically. It's disposing of the heat after I've used it, that will be my shortcoming. I am trying to remove the heat disposal problem, by simply not putting the heat in to start with. I welcome any thoughts and commentary on my approach. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
This is one of the reasons that The Revenoor Co. www.revenoor.com offers all alcohol stills with internal solar/steam coils. Terry --- randallbarron1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay, so solar stills are available, but do not produce a very high ethanol concentration with distillation. What about using solar energy to preheat your solution before it reaches a regular still. If you could preheat with solar power, less energy would need to be input it to the final distillation processes. Randall --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am new to this group so this may have already been answered before, but I have not been able to find any information on it yet. I keep seeing information about energy use for distillation being a limiting factor using ethanol as an alternative fuel source. Has anyone looked into using some sort of solar collector to provide the heat (or at least some of the heat) needed for distillation? Randall Hi Randall http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_manual/manual15.ht ml Alcohol Fuel Manual Ch15 Chapter 15 SOLAR STILLS Also: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Is ethanol energy-efficient? Best Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
there are turbo yeasts available that will withstand 20%+. with sufficent vacuum you can boil water at room temp. i would question whether the yeast's ability to propagate (and therefore produce ethanol)would be affected by a low vacuum.i think that you are pursuing an interesting avenue of research. i will try to dig up some info on boiling ethanol at different vacuums. regards, roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think yeast croak or really slow down at 14% or higher.(14% =28proof) That is also my understanding. The alcohol starts to kill the Yeast above 10%, and they are nearly all dead by 14%. On the temp side, 140F kills them off. That brings me back to the basis of my question. If I heat my fermentation tanks to (?)125F, so the yeast are still alive, how much vacuum will I need to apply to the tank, to start removing some of the Ethanol to keep the level below 10%? How much vacuum to do the same task at 100F? I would like to keep the Yeast alive and actively producing, without having to heat the massive quantities of water to do a traditional distillation. I'm trying to look ahead, at the whole process, and solve as many potential problems as I can see, before I start investing meager assets to it. I can overcome the heating problem rather economically. It's disposing of the heat after I've used it, that will be my shortcoming. I am trying to remove the heat disposal problem, by simply not putting the heat in to start with. I welcome any thoughts and commentary on my approach. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
The relationship of pressure to yeast viability is an unknown to me but if the liquid column is deep enough that should establish a viability zone and a piece of filter (plastic or plasticized paper?) could keep all the yeasties happy below that barrier. As to vapor pressure I think you are asking what it boils at. Perhaps you can find that on the web or in the library. You will probably use less energy purifying by freezing rather than vaporizing The depression in degrees C for ethanol/water is % ethanol depression degrees C 52.09 10 4.47 15 7.36 20 10.92 30 20.47 40 29.26 50 37.67 60 44.93 68 49.52 I think freezing H2O only uses 1/3 as much energy as evaporating. Better check that as my memory isn't what it used to be. Another way, since it can be slow, is a cold trap in a sealed system. The alcohol will transport faster than the water. Vacuum systems where you pressurize the output of the pump in a cold trap have the product going through a pump and contamination is a given. If not for human consumption I suppose it doesn't matter but the energy requirements are higher than just a trap using ambient heat to transport the product. It doesn't have to boil and the cold trap condenser heat can be put back in the source vessel if using a refrigeration system. If your tank is at 125 F I would think 75F would get condensate at a good enough rate to keep concentration below yeast toxicity. Could get 75F probably by running household water through a tank and then to house. Most water is 55F or so I would think. I assume you use the sun to heat your tank. Slowest process of all but uses the least energy. Just some meandering round Robin Hood's barn but I think there is a seed or two in there. Kirk -Original Message- From: motie_d [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 3:34 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think yeast croak or really slow down at 14% or higher.(14% =28proof) That is also my understanding. The alcohol starts to kill the Yeast above 10%, and they are nearly all dead by 14%. On the temp side, 140F kills them off. That brings me back to the basis of my question. If I heat my fermentation tanks to (?)125F, so the yeast are still alive, how much vacuum will I need to apply to the tank, to start removing some of the Ethanol to keep the level below 10%? How much vacuum to do the same task at 100F? I would like to keep the Yeast alive and actively producing, without having to heat the massive quantities of water to do a traditional distillation. I'm trying to look ahead, at the whole process, and solve as many potential problems as I can see, before I start investing meager assets to it. I can overcome the heating problem rather economically. It's disposing of the heat after I've used it, that will be my shortcoming. I am trying to remove the heat disposal problem, by simply not putting the heat in to start with. I welcome any thoughts and commentary on my approach. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 2/8/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 2/8/2002 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: there are turbo yeasts available that will withstand 20%+. with sufficent vacuum you can boil water at room temp. i would question whether the yeast's ability to propagate (and therefore produce ethanol)would be affected by a low vacuum.i think that you are pursuing an interesting avenue of research. i will try to dig up some info on boiling ethanol at different vacuums. regards, roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) I thoroughly appreciate the effort, Roger. While I am looking to evaporate the Ethanol at 125F, even better would be if I could do it at 100F. I started work on a different integrated systems process several years ago, and it was up in the air with various people trying to tell me it couldn't be done. None could tell me WHY it couldn't be done. I found a solution to every reason anyone could come up with. The Engineering for a commercial plant is in process now, as budgetary constraints abound. Financing is VERY scarce for a concept project. It will be at least 3 years before it is operational. I want to do some small scale work on this concept of using vacuum to somewhat refine the process of fermentation. If someone has insight into WHY it won't work, I'll attempt to resolve the problem before spending money on it. The real proof will be when I can drive down the road burning Ethanol produced this way. The first prototype is liable to look like something from Junkyard Wars on TV. I haven't made any effort to determine the marketability of this idea, and have no plans to do so in the future. To the best of my knowledge, this will NOT be a patentable concept. If it is, I have just made public the basis, and precluded someone else trying to do so. Consider this my legal disclaimer to all. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
freezing causes the yeast's cell wall to rupture,killing them and therefore stopping further ethanol production. regards,roger The relationship of pressure to yeast viability is an unknown to me but if the liquid column is deep enough that should establish a viability zone and a piece of filter (plastic or plasticized paper?) could keep all the yeasties happy below that barrier. As to vapor pressure I think you are asking what it boils at. Perhaps you can find that on the web or in the library. You will probably use less energy purifying by freezing rather than vaporizing The depression in degrees C for ethanol/water is % ethanol depression degrees C 5 2.09 10 4.47 15 7.36 2010.92 3020.47 4029.26 5037.67 6044.93 6849.52 I think freezing H2O only uses 1/3 as much energy as evaporating. Better check that as my memory isn't what it used to be. Another way, since it can be slow, is a cold trap in a sealed system. The alcohol will transport faster than the water. Vacuum systems where you pressurize the output of the pump in a cold trap have the product going through a pump and contamination is a given. If not for human consumption I suppose it doesn't matter but the energy requirements are higher than just a trap using ambient heat to transport the product. It doesn't have to boil and the cold trap condenser heat can be put back in the source vessel if using a refrigeration system. If your tank is at 125 F I would think 75F would get condensate at a good enough rate to keep concentration below yeast toxicity. Could get 75F probably by running household water through a tank and then to house. Most water is 55F or so I would think. I assume you use the sun to heat your tank. Slowest process of all but uses the least energy. Just some meandering round Robin Hood's barn but I think there is a seed or two in there. Kirk -Original Message- From: motie_d [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 3:34 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think yeast croak or really slow down at 14% or higher.(14% =28proof) That is also my understanding. The alcohol starts to kill the Yeast above 10%, and they are nearly all dead by 14%. On the temp side, 140F kills them off. That brings me back to the basis of my question. If I heat my fermentation tanks to (?)125F, so the yeast are still alive, how much vacuum will I need to apply to the tank, to start removing some of the Ethanol to keep the level below 10%? How much vacuum to do the same task at 100F? I would like to keep the Yeast alive and actively producing, without having to heat the massive quantities of water to do a traditional distillation. I'm trying to look ahead, at the whole process, and solve as many potential problems as I can see, before I start investing meager assets to it. I can overcome the heating problem rather economically. It's disposing of the heat after I've used it, that will be my shortcoming. I am trying to remove the heat disposal problem, by simply not putting the heat in to start with. I welcome any thoughts and commentary on my approach. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 2/8/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 2/8/2002 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
Motie, Have you done any work on making the residue from the still fit for human consumption? By Raw -Original Message- From: motie_d [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, 09 February, 2002 10:11 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: there are turbo yeasts available that will withstand 20%+. with sufficent vacuum you can boil water at room temp. i would question whether the yeast's ability to propagate (and therefore produce ethanol)would be affected by a low vacuum.i think that you are pursuing an interesting avenue of research. i will try to dig up some info on boiling ethanol at different vacuums. regards, roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) I thoroughly appreciate the effort, Roger. While I am looking to evaporate the Ethanol at 125F, even better would be if I could do it at 100F. I started work on a different integrated systems process several years ago, and it was up in the air with various people trying to tell me it couldn't be done. None could tell me WHY it couldn't be done. I found a solution to every reason anyone could come up with. The Engineering for a commercial plant is in process now, as budgetary constraints abound. Financing is VERY scarce for a concept project. It will be at least 3 years before it is operational. I want to do some small scale work on this concept of using vacuum to somewhat refine the process of fermentation. If someone has insight into WHY it won't work, I'll attempt to resolve the problem before spending money on it. The real proof will be when I can drive down the road burning Ethanol produced this way. The first prototype is liable to look like something from Junkyard Wars on TV. I haven't made any effort to determine the marketability of this idea, and have no plans to do so in the future. To the best of my knowledge, this will NOT be a patentable concept. If it is, I have just made public the basis, and precluded someone else trying to do so. Consider this my legal disclaimer to all. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
motie, fermentation temps. should not exceed 25C(77F). i am still trying to look thru my info to find the vacuum required to distill off ethanol at say 68-72F. roger --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: there are turbo yeasts available that will withstand 20%+. with sufficent vacuum you can boil water at room temp. i would question whether the yeast's ability to propagate (and therefore produce ethanol)would be affected by a low vacuum.i think that you are pursuing an interesting avenue of research. i will try to dig up some info on boiling ethanol at different vacuums. regards, roger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) I thoroughly appreciate the effort, Roger. While I am looking to evaporate the Ethanol at 125F, even better would be if I could do it at 100F. I started work on a different integrated systems process several years ago, and it was up in the air with various people trying to tell me it couldn't be done. None could tell me WHY it couldn't be done. I found a solution to every reason anyone could come up with. The Engineering for a commercial plant is in process now, as budgetary constraints abound. Financing is VERY scarce for a concept project. It will be at least 3 years before it is operational. I want to do some small scale work on this concept of using vacuum to somewhat refine the process of fermentation. If someone has insight into WHY it won't work, I'll attempt to resolve the problem before spending money on it. The real proof will be when I can drive down the road burning Ethanol produced this way. The first prototype is liable to look like something from Junkyard Wars on TV. I haven't made any effort to determine the marketability of this idea, and have no plans to do so in the future. To the best of my knowledge, this will NOT be a patentable concept. If it is, I have just made public the basis, and precluded someone else trying to do so. Consider this my legal disclaimer to all. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
I'll interpose my thoughts into the body of your message. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The relationship of pressure to yeast viability is an unknown to me but if the liquid column is deep enough that should establish a viability zone and a piece of filter (plastic or plasticized paper?) could keep all the yeasties happy below that barrier. That sounds like an excellent thought to develop further. 2 feet below the surface, the pressure is liable to be above normal atmospheric pressure. Yeast viability under vacuum may well be a moot point. As to vapor pressure I think you are asking what it boils at. Yes. I know the boiling point at atmosphere, and it is too high for the Yeast to survive. I want to reduce the pressure, to reduce the boiling point of the Ethanol portion. I don't want to remove the water. You will probably use less energy purifying by freezing rather than vaporizing Freezing will kill the Yeast, stopping the fermentation process, and raising the alcohol content above toxic levels for the Yeast, by segregating the water in the solution. The alcohol will still be there. I need to remove the alcohol, and do it at a fast enough rate to keep the Yeast alive and fermenting vigorously. My current temperature parameters are to keep the mix between 75F and 125F, with 95F probably being the ideal. I think freezing H2O only uses 1/3 as much energy as evaporating. I believe you are correct, but I didn't thoroughly explain what I am attempting to do. I don't want to simply distill the alcohol from a finished ferment, I want to keep the ferment continuously active, and remove the alcohol to keep it below toxic limits. Another way, since it can be slow, is a cold trap in a sealed system. The alcohol will transport faster than the water. Vacuum systems where you pressurize the output of the pump in a cold trap have the product going through a pump and contamination is a given. If not for human consumption I suppose it doesn't matter but the energy requirements are higher than just a trap using ambient heat to transport the product. It doesn't have to boil and the cold trap condenser heat can be put back in the source vessel if using a refrigeration system. Can you expand on this a bit? Are you pumping the liquid solution, or just the vapors? If your tank is at 125 F I would think 75F would get condensate at a good enough rate to keep concentration below yeast toxicity. Could get 75F probably by running household water through a tank and then to house. Most water is 55F or so I would think. I assume you use the sun to heat your tank. Slowest process of all but uses the least energy. Putting heat in is not a problem. I'll use wood fired hot water to put in the bare minimum needed. Just some meandering round Robin Hood's barn but I think there is a seed or two in there. Where or what is Robin Hood's Barn? A site for others with similar interests? Kirk Thanks for your input. Please don't stop now. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], rwe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Motie, Have you done any work on making the residue from the still fit for human consumption? By Raw Not yet, but it may 'accidently' occur occasionaly. I may have to further purify a small sample occasionally for 'lab tests'! LOL I'm looking for anything over 90% for fuel purposes. If the vacuum can achieve a 50% product, I can distill it much more efficiently than if I am starting from a wash of only 14%. I would like to initialize with a 100 gallon tank, and add a couple more if the process works. The tanks could work around the clock. I would only have to spend a couple of hours daily to vacuum off the excess alcohol, and throw in more feedstock. For fuel purposes, I'm not concerned with heads or tails or any 'off-taste'. A little Methanol won't worry me. If I need a 'lab sample', I can draw off a gallon or two, and reflux it to needed quality levels. There are a couple of other groups I'm in, that can help with what I think your question may be. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/new_distillers/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Distillers/ Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: motie, fermentation temps. should not exceed 25C(77F). i am still trying to look thru my info to find the vacuum required to distill off ethanol at say 68-72F. roger Thanks. That would much simplify the process, if it can be done at that low of temps. This is not for 'food-quality' alcohol. Just fuel to be run in my '76 Chevy pickup. It isn't real fussy, as long as it is a flammable liquid. It runs on Diesel fuel to Isopropyl alcohol, to a little used oil dumped in occasionally. If I can get 180 proof, I believe it will be perfect for my use. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation
Are you pumping the liquid solution, or just the vapors? Just the vapor is moving across. You have space over the liquid and the air is connected to a cold space that is lower so the cold air is stable. As the alcohol becomes dew the partial vapor pressure renews the concentration. A refrigeration system has its evaporator as the insulated trap and the condenser heat is put back into the brew. Or the cold trap is cooled by ambient or cold water. In my neck of the woods the great outdoors gets very cold in winter. Enormous heat sink. Where or what is Robin Hood's Barn? A site for others with similar interests? An expression meaning you wander all over. All of Sherwood Forest was Robin's so you could wander a fair bit going round his barn. Kirk -Original Message- From: motie_d [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 7:55 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Re: ethanol distillation I'll interpose my thoughts into the body of your message. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], kirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The relationship of pressure to yeast viability is an unknown to me but if the liquid column is deep enough that should establish a viability zone and a piece of filter (plastic or plasticized paper?) could keep all the yeasties happy below that barrier. That sounds like an excellent thought to develop further. 2 feet below the surface, the pressure is liable to be above normal atmospheric pressure. Yeast viability under vacuum may well be a moot point. As to vapor pressure I think you are asking what it boils at. Yes. I know the boiling point at atmosphere, and it is too high for the Yeast to survive. I want to reduce the pressure, to reduce the boiling point of the Ethanol portion. I don't want to remove the water. You will probably use less energy purifying by freezing rather than vaporizing Freezing will kill the Yeast, stopping the fermentation process, and raising the alcohol content above toxic levels for the Yeast, by segregating the water in the solution. The alcohol will still be there. I need to remove the alcohol, and do it at a fast enough rate to keep the Yeast alive and fermenting vigorously. My current temperature parameters are to keep the mix between 75F and 125F, with 95F probably being the ideal. I think freezing H2O only uses 1/3 as much energy as evaporating. I believe you are correct, but I didn't thoroughly explain what I am attempting to do. I don't want to simply distill the alcohol from a finished ferment, I want to keep the ferment continuously active, and remove the alcohol to keep it below toxic limits. Another way, since it can be slow, is a cold trap in a sealed system. The alcohol will transport faster than the water. Vacuum systems where you pressurize the output of the pump in a cold trap have the product going through a pump and contamination is a given. If not for human consumption I suppose it doesn't matter but the energy requirements are higher than just a trap using ambient heat to transport the product. It doesn't have to boil and the cold trap condenser heat can be put back in the source vessel if using a refrigeration system. Can you expand on this a bit? Are you pumping the liquid solution, or just the vapors? If your tank is at 125 F I would think 75F would get condensate at a good enough rate to keep concentration below yeast toxicity. Could get 75F probably by running household water through a tank and then to house. Most water is 55F or so I would think. I assume you use the sun to heat your tank. Slowest process of all but uses the least energy. Putting heat in is not a problem. I'll use wood fired hot water to put in the bare minimum needed. Just some meandering round Robin Hood's barn but I think there is a seed or two in there. Where or what is Robin Hood's Barn? A site for others with similar interests? Kirk Thanks for your input. Please don't stop now. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 2/8/2002 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.323 / Virus Database: 180 - Release Date: 2/8/2002 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Get your FREE credit report with a FREE CreditCheck Monitoring Service trial http://us.click.yahoo.com/ACHqaB/bQ8CAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email
