Re: [Biofuel] Alright, I'm stumped.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#whatdo>http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#whatdo What should you do if your fuel doesn't pass the wash-test? Well, for one thing I'm certainly not giving up. Just stumped. I've licked carburetor problems, idling issues, helped rebuild transmissions, and above all I'm paying my own way through engineering school. I'm not letting a simple transesterification process kick my butt. ^.~ It is though, isn't it? Make sure you measure your Lye very carefully, I found I added to much the first time and smoked a blender but it was this and several other blunders that have made it easier to get along with now. Mmm... I should post pictures of what the blender looks like now. I smoked it pretty badly, on closer inspection. Cracked/melted part of the blender drum, ate away the seal (Seriously, does methanol/methoxide attack silicone parts?), started to do something funky to the blender blade; I'm going to guess it's an aluminum blade? Anywho, thank you for your suggestions; I'm swapping, since I'm on a bit of a tight budget, from a scale/mass based measuring system for hydroxide to a volumetric one. I have small measures and cylinders abounding all around me, and very little in the way of scales. Calibrate up a couple of different measuring devices, and do everything by volume instead of mass. Density of NaOH is 2.1 g/cm3 right? Makes this whole thing easy and quicker for me. Might seem to at first but it won't. Accurate scales will make it easier and quicker for you. I've dewatered some of my fresh oil (Got to love Wal-Mart quality, it had measurable water in it.), Why risk wasting your time? People are trying to tell you about removing the variables, not adding more of them. Get some virgin oil that doesn't have water in it. and I'm going to plan on making up a batch in a small jar, about 300mL total size for conservation purposes. How will you mix it and keep it hot? Tight budget and all that. I'll keep you all posted, if you'd like; have a couple of ideas for tinkering once I have the basic process down pat. First things first. And then the wash-test: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality Good luck Keith -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Alright, I'm stumped.
Oops, sorry, that message got a bit fouled up, wasn't in ASCII, second try: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#whatdo What should you do if your fuel doesn't pass the wash-test? Well, for one thing I'm certainly not giving up. Just stumped. I've licked carburetor problems, idling issues, helped rebuild transmissions, and above all I'm paying my own way through engineering school. I'm not letting a simple transesterification process kick my butt. ^.~ It is though, isn't it? Make sure you measure your Lye very carefully, I found I added to much the first time and smoked a blender but it was this and several other blunders that have made it easier to get along with now. Mmm... I should post pictures of what the blender looks like now. I smoked it pretty badly, on closer inspection. Cracked/melted part of the blender drum, ate away the seal (Seriously, does methanol/methoxide attack silicone parts?), started to do something funky to the blender blade; I'm going to guess it's an aluminum blade? Anywho, thank you for your suggestions; I'm swapping, since I'm on a bit of a tight budget, from a scale/mass based measuring system for hydroxide to a volumetric one. I have small measures and cylinders abounding all around me, and very little in the way of scales. Calibrate up a couple of different measuring devices, and do everything by volume instead of mass. Density of NaOH is 2.1 g/cm3 right? Makes this whole thing easy and quicker for me. Might seem to at first but it won't. Accurate scales will make it easier and quicker for you. I've dewatered some of my fresh oil (Got to love Wal-Mart quality, it had measurable water in it.), Why risk wasting your time? People are trying to tell you about removing the variables, not adding more of them. Get some virgin oil that doesn't have water in it. and I'm going to plan on making up a batch in a small jar, about 300mL total size for conservation purposes. How will you mix it and keep it hot? Tight budget and all that. I'll keep you all posted, if you'd like; have a couple of ideas for tinkering once I have the basic process down pat. First things first. And then the wash-test: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality Good luck Keith -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Alright, I'm stumped.
On 10/11/05, Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oops, sorry, that message got a bit fouled up, wasn't in ASCII, second try: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#whatdo What should you do if your fuel doesn't pass the wash-test?Well, for one thing I'm certainly not giving up. Just stumped. I've licked carburetor problems, idling issues, helped rebuildtransmissions, and above all I'm paying my own way throughengineering school. I'm not letting a simple transesterificationprocess kick my butt. ^.~ It is though, isn't it? Nope, not yet. It's merely throwing obstacles in my way. It's only kicked me soundly when I decide to give up; until then, it's still a fight I can win. . Make sure you measure your Lye very carefully, I found I added to muchthe first time and smoked a blender but it was this and several other blunders that have made it easier to get along with now.Mmm... I should post pictures of what the blender looks like now. Ismoked it pretty badly, on closer inspection. Cracked/melted part of the blender drum, ate away the seal (Seriously, doesmethanol/methoxide attack silicone parts?), started to do somethingfunky to the blender blade; I'm going to guess it's an aluminumblade? Anywho, thank you for your suggestions; I'm swapping, since I'm on abit of a tight budget, from a scale/mass based measuring system forhydroxide to a volumetric one. I have small measures and cylinders abounding all around me, and very little in the way of scales.Calibrate up a couple of different measuring devices, and doeverything by volume instead of mass. Density of NaOH is 2.1 g/cm3right? Makes this whole thing easy and quicker for me. Might seem to at first but it won't. Accurate scales will make iteasier and quicker for you. Accurate scales are also currently out of my price range. I won't keep using it for long, once I have the money for said scale. I've dewatered some of my fresh oil (Got to love Wal-Mart quality,it had measurable water in it.), Why risk wasting your time? People are trying to tell you aboutremoving the variables, not adding more of them. Get some virgin oilthat doesn't have water in it. This was, supposedly. Picked up one of those quart bottles of oil, and just because I was curious (And because in this humidity, it seems ieverything/i has water in it. Ugh.) I heated it up to get anymoisture in it out. Heated it and then let it settle; there was a small, but measurable, little layer of water that settled out. and I'm going to plan on making up a batch in a small jar, about300mL total size for conservation purposes. How will you mix it and keep it hot? Irf, didn't think of that. Right, back to plan B. Anywho, it's midterm time. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Alright, I'm stumped.
Kurt, You wrote: " ... Emulsed like crap when I tried to wash it, to the point of a full 50% of the test wash ending up a crappy mayonnaise consistency. To date, after 36+ hours of settling, I barely have 100mL of clear upper level separated out of a 300mL test wash." (my underline) The "crappy mayonnaise" sounds like soap. "Added a very carefully measured amount of my methoxide, 100mL, to the reprocessing candidate in the blender." ... "Anyway, five hours after reprocessing the first-run product, ... " Did any additional glycerine fall out? ... Would suggest an incomplete reaction. If not, it would further suggest soap. "I drew out another 100mL and added 100mL of hot (120~F) water. Gently swirled it at first, but that wasn't even mixing water and product so I went to a slightly more vigorous shaking. And it did the same thing. Emulsed like crap. I have a 200mL jar of two-tone mayonnaise. The upper layer is tinged yellow-brown, the bottom layer is pure white." As I understand it, emulsions are caused by soap due to water in the reaction or failure to separate glycerine out prior to wash, or by unreacted glycerides due to an incomplete reaction. It sounds like you got soap ... a lot of it. I don't think reprocessing will help if you made soap in the initial reaction. Minimize soap by keeping water out of the reaction. Make sure the oil is dry. (See JtF: "Removing Water"). Use good methanol and lye.Give adequate time for glycerine mix to settle and err on the side of "losing" BD when youseparate the tworather than risk glycerine in the BD that you want to wash. (Recover BD later). Measure lye accurately. Being off by .5 to 1.0 g on a 1L batch is more significant than being off the same amount on a 50L batch. Being new to BD production, I claim no expertiese, but the heartbreak of emulsions is still fresh in my mind. My first large (30 gal) batch large emulsion. Following suggestions, I salvaged the batch, tweated the process and have been making 20 gal batches that wash easily (stir-wash) and when a small sample is reprocessed - little if any additional glycerine. It is possible to make high quality BD following the instructions at JtF. Solving problems that arise is part of the process. In your case it may simply involve a better balance for measuring lye. Check out how to break emulsions at JtF. Best Wishes, Tom From: Kurt Nolte To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 12:28 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Alright, I'm stumped. Okay, so earlier this week I tried my first batch. Didn't go so hot, it was still a little cloudy after I was done. Emulsed like crap when I tried to wash it, to the point of a full 50% of the test wash ending up a crappy mayonnaise consistency. To date, after 36+ hours of settling, I barely have 100mL of clear upper level separated out of a 300mL test wash.Okay, so I figured I screwed up along the line somewhere. I had some doubts as to the unused status of the oil, so I looked up the directions and reprocessed a liter of it in a blender. I mixed up a large enough batch of the 10% methanol blend suggested for reprocessing for my little scale to be accurate (It only measures in 2g increments. Must find a better scale!) and I did it inside where the humidity was only around 60% (As opposed to exterior humidity of around 90%+) and quickly, only taking a bare 45sec to a minute from the time I opened the cannister to the time NaOH hit the methanol in the blender bowl. It mixed rather nicely, and I pulsed it's mixing off and on to keep the blender cool during the fifteen minutes it took me to be confident everything had fully dissolved. It ended up a very islightly/i cloudy mixture, but nothing settled into the bottom over the next hour.During the course of that hour I set up the other stuff, measuring out a liter of my initial product, putting it in a second blender (Just bought it, cheap $14 one), getting that all set up; it was still slightly cloudy when I put it in the blender. During this same time I also measured out 500mL of just-purchased canola oil, intending to process a real minibatch after I reprocessed some of my initial product.Added a very carefully measured amount of my methoxide, 100mL, to the reprocessing candidate in the blender. Snapped the lid on, made sure everything was secure, and let her go. Twenty minutes of blenderized thrashing commenced, during which time the whole slew became a kind of milky yellow-amber color, with a brown tint to it. Cut the blender off, poured everything inside it out into a glass jar with a cap. Set that aside and went into the house, washed the blender cup thoroughly, inside and out. I towelled it off, then let it air-dry for a good five or ten minutes inside the house. Took it back outside, put it back together, and added my
Re: [Biofuel] Alright, I'm stumped.
On 10/10/05, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The crappy mayonnaise sounds like soap. That's my ultimate thought, too. Added a very carefully measured amount of my methoxide, 100mL, to the reprocessing candidate in the blender. ... Anyway, five hours after reprocessing the first-run product, ... Did any additional glycerine fall out? ... Would suggest an incomplete reaction. If not, it would further suggest soap. I found just a tiny, tiny little film of glycerine down at the bottom. I mean itiny/i, so I don't believe it was an incomplete reaction that was the primary driving force behind the emulsion. It's probably my POS scale. In your case it may simply involve a better balance for measuring lye. Check out how to break emulsions at JtF. I'm going to hope that it is. I've rigged up something else to mix up a batch in (HDPE Mayo container from work that I'm currently letting air-dry, plus parts off the blender I toasted. ^.~ This stuff doesn't eat silicon caulking, does it?), and I'm going to go try a cheap scale idea from another site that uses water as a counterbalance. Humidity seems to be down today, maybe it'll work. Thanks Tom, it's pretty heartening to hear that other people have had similar problems, and it wasn't just made up to make us feel better. ^.~ With determination! -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Alright, I'm stumped.
Sounds like my first run and I'm no expert now but I had to eliminate the variables one by one.. So I got Virgin oil, Got better at titration, got a better lye (and how to measure it!) - and Bingo there it was perfect Bio.. Make sure you measure your Lye very carefully, I found I added to much the first time and smoked a blender but it was this and several other blunders that have made it easier to get along with now. Good luck! Jim Kurt Nolte wrote: Okay, so earlier this week I tried my first batch. Didn't go so hot, it was still a little cloudy after I was done. Emulsed like crap when I tried to wash it, to the point of a full 50% of the test wash ending up a crappy mayonnaise consistency. To date, after 36+ hours of settling, I barely have 100mL of clear upper level separated out of a 300mL test wash. Okay, so I figured I screwed up along the line somewhere. I had some doubts as to the unused status of the oil, so I looked up the directions and reprocessed a liter of it in a blender. I mixed up a large enough batch of the 10% methanol blend suggested for reprocessing for my little scale to be accurate (It only measures in 2g increments. Must find a better scale!) and I did it inside where the humidity was only around 60% (As opposed to exterior humidity of around 90%+) and quickly, only taking a bare 45sec to a minute from the time I opened the cannister to the time NaOH hit the methanol in the blender bowl. It mixed rather nicely, and I pulsed it's mixing off and on to keep the blender cool during the fifteen minutes it took me to be confident everything had fully dissolved. It ended up a very islightly/i cloudy mixture, but nothing settled into the bottom over the next hour. During the course of that hour I set up the other stuff, measuring out a liter of my initial product, putting it in a second blender (Just bought it, cheap $14 one), getting that all set up; it was still slightly cloudy when I put it in the blender. During this same time I also measured out 500mL of just-purchased canola oil, intending to process a real minibatch after I reprocessed some of my initial product. Added a very carefully measured amount of my methoxide, 100mL, to the reprocessing candidate in the blender. Snapped the lid on, made sure everything was secure, and let her go. Twenty minutes of blenderized thrashing commenced, during which time the whole slew became a kind of milky yellow-amber color, with a brown tint to it. Cut the blender off, poured everything inside it out into a glass jar with a cap. Set that aside and went into the house, washed the blender cup thoroughly, inside and out. I towelled it off, then let it air-dry for a good five or ten minutes inside the house. Took it back outside, put it back together, and added my fresh oil to the cup. Drew out another 50mL of my 10% grade solution, adding another 50mL of my methanol source to bring it up to the requisite 20% volume. Since the grams of lye per liter were never changed, just the volume of methanol, I reasoned that doing this was safe and would work since I was just bringing the lye concentration down to normal by diluting the solution with more methanol. Added this to the batch of fresh oil, secured the cap, turned the blender on and walked inside to wash my hands again and get something to drink. Ten minutes later I walked back out, and the blender was utterly empty. Bottom end failure on my cheap blender; apparently I hadn't let the motor cool long enough, so the heat ran up the shaft and when combined with the heat of mixing it I melted the plastic. Bummer. So I don't have that as a comparison. Anyway, five hours after reprocessing the first-run product, I drew out another 100mL and added 100mL of hot (120~F) water. Gently swirled it at first, but that wasn't even mixing water and product so I went to a slightly more vigorous shaking. And it did the same thing. Emulsed like crap. I have a 200mL jar of two-tone mayonnaise. The upper layer is tinged yellow-brown, the bottom layer is pure white. Ummm, help? -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
Re: [Biofuel] Alright, I'm stumped.
Sad to say but I think most of us have screwed up at one point or another. My big mistake was the very first thing doing the titration with the better titration method but I for got 1 minor thing so from that point all was up hill. When checking my process one thing at a time checking and rechecking but all I did was A1 after thinking that this was all a trick I found the first thing I did was wrong. Now all is well with the process. Until I mess up once more Happy hunting. Derick From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kurt Nolte Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 2:15 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alright, I'm stumped. On 10/10/05, Thomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The crappy mayonnaise sounds like soap. That's my ultimate thought, too. Added a very carefully measured amount of my methoxide, 100mL, to the reprocessing candidate in the blender. ... Anyway, five hours after reprocessing the first-run product, ... Did any additional glycerine fall out? ... Would suggest an incomplete reaction. If not, it would further suggest soap. I found just a tiny, tiny little film of glycerine down at the bottom. I mean itiny/i, so I don't believe it was an incomplete reaction that was the primary driving force behind the emulsion. It's probably my POS scale. In your case it may simply involve a better balance for measuring lye. Check out how to break emulsions at JtF. I'm going to hope that it is. I've rigged up something else to mix up a batch in (HDPE Mayo container from work that I'm currently letting air-dry, plus parts off the blender I toasted. ^.~ This stuff doesn't eat silicon caulking, does it?), and I'm going to go try a cheap scale idea from another site that uses water as a counterbalance. Humidity seems to be down today, maybe it'll work. Thanks Tom, it's pretty heartening to hear that other people have had similar problems, and it wasn't just made up to make us feel better. ^.~ With determination! -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Alright, I'm stumped.
Hello Kurt Did you manage to get past this little hurdle in your previous message? Right, mixed up batch one last night. Unfortunately it was pretty improvised; One I need to get a better scale (This one only measures down to the nearest two grams, how screwy is that?), and two I need to get a dryer place to work. Did you see this? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#whatdo What should you do if your fuel doesn't pass the wash-test? Best wishes Keith Okay, so earlier this week I tried my first batch. Didn't go so hot, it was still a little cloudy after I was done. Emulsed like crap when I tried to wash it, to the point of a full 50% of the test wash ending up a crappy mayonnaise consistency. To date, after 36+ hours of settling, I barely have 100mL of clear upper level separated out of a 300mL test wash. Okay, so I figured I screwed up along the line somewhere. I had some doubts as to the unused status of the oil, so I looked up the directions and reprocessed a liter of it in a blender. I mixed up a large enough batch of the 10% methanol blend suggested for reprocessing for my little scale to be accurate (It only measures in 2g increments. Must find a better scale!) and I did it inside where the humidity was only around 60% (As opposed to exterior humidity of around 90%+) and quickly, only taking a bare 45sec to a minute from the time I opened the cannister to the time NaOH hit the methanol in the blender bowl. It mixed rather nicely, and I pulsed it's mixing off and on to keep the blender cool during the fifteen minutes it took me to be confident everything had fully dissolved. It ended up a very islightly/i cloudy mixture, but nothing settled into the bottom over the next hour. During the course of that hour I set up the other stuff, measuring out a liter of my initial product, putting it in a second blender (Just bought it, cheap $14 one), getting that all set up; it was still slightly cloudy when I put it in the blender. During this same time I also measured out 500mL of just-purchased canola oil, intending to process a real minibatch after I reprocessed some of my initial product. Added a very carefully measured amount of my methoxide, 100mL, to the reprocessing candidate in the blender. Snapped the lid on, made sure everything was secure, and let her go. Twenty minutes of blenderized thrashing commenced, during which time the whole slew became a kind of milky yellow-amber color, with a brown tint to it. Cut the blender off, poured everything inside it out into a glass jar with a cap. Set that aside and went into the house, washed the blender cup thoroughly, inside and out. I towelled it off, then let it air-dry for a good five or ten minutes inside the house. Took it back outside, put it back together, and added my fresh oil to the cup. Drew out another 50mL of my 10% grade solution, adding another 50mL of my methanol source to bring it up to the requisite 20% volume. Since the grams of lye per liter were never changed, just the volume of methanol, I reasoned that doing this was safe and would work since I was just bringing the lye concentration down to normal by diluting the solution with more methanol. Added this to the batch of fresh oil, secured the cap, turned the blender on and walked inside to wash my hands again and get something to drink. Ten minutes later I walked back out, and the blender was utterly empty. Bottom end failure on my cheap blender; apparently I hadn't let the motor cool long enough, so the heat ran up the shaft and when combined with the heat of mixing it I melted the plastic. Bummer. So I don't have that as a comparison. Anyway, five hours after reprocessing the first-run product, I drew out another 100mL and added 100mL of hot (120~F) water. Gently swirled it at first, but that wasn't even mixing water and product so I went to a slightly more vigorous shaking. And it did the same thing. Emulsed like crap. I have a 200mL jar of two-tone mayonnaise. The upper layer is tinged yellow-brown, the bottom layer is pure white. Ummm, help? -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Alright, I'm stumped.
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#whatdo What should you do if your fuel doesn't pass the wash-test? Well, for one thing I'm certainly not giving up. Just stumped. I've licked carburetor problems, idling issues, helped rebuild transmissions, and above all I'm paying my own way through engineering school. I'm not letting a simple transesterification process kick my butt. ^.~ Make sure you measure your Lye very carefully, I found I added to much the first time and smoked a blender but it was this and several other blunders that have made it easier to get along with now. Mmm... I should post pictures of what the blender looks like now. I smoked it pretty badly, on closer inspection. Cracked/melted part of the blender drum, ate away the seal (Seriously, does methanol/methoxide attack silicone parts?), started to do something funky to the blender blade; I'm going to guess it's an aluminum blade? Anywho, thank you for your suggestions; I'm swapping, since I'm on a bit of a tight budget, from a scale/mass based measuring system for hydroxide to a volumetric one. I have small measures and cylinders abounding all around me, and very little in the way of scales. Calibrate up a couple of different measuring devices, and do everything by volume instead of mass. Density of NaOH is 2.1 g/cm3 right? Makes this whole thing easy and quicker for me. I've dewatered some of my fresh oil (Got to love Wal-Mart quality, it had measurable water in it.), and I'm going to plan on making up a batch in a small jar, about 300mL total size for conservation purposes. Tight budget and all that. I'll keep you all posted, if you'd like; have a couple of ideas for tinkering once I have the basic process down pat. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
