Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
Yes, but when you figure in all the energy required to make the batteries for the Prius (and to replace them after 6-8 years), I'd bet that the Puegot HDI (the 407 HDI wagon with a manual gearbox averages 49 miles per US gallon in the city, and as high as 54 MPG driving to Melbourne from Adelaide) has a smaller 'carbon footprint' than the Prius. Ive never, ever seen a puff of smoke come out of the tailpipe. I'll take the simplicy of my little diesel over the complexity of a petrol hybrid any day. Cheers, Josh - Original Message From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Monday, 28 April, 2008 9:49:10 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now doug wrote: Hi, You are saying you got 56mpg from your Prius: I have a 307 Peugeot Diesel get ~17Km/L: ie about 50M/imp Gallon (about 10% bigger than a US Gallon I think: one of the few things the Poms can claim is bigger than in the States!!) If the Pug is driven with economy in mind, the recent Australian record is 2760 Km on 70L fuel: a 406 peugeot was driven from Rockhampton in Queensland to Melbourne on 1 tankful of fuel. The diesels leave the Priuses for dead! Yes, no argument. But somehow I doubt the dear old peugeot's can touch the prius on emissions. And I do love the peugeot's but peugeot wisely figured out that the US market just isn't worth the trouble :) Everyone knows that the prius is the worst of all cars, everyone loves to climb on and piss on it. That's fine with me. No harm, no foul. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080428/4696cb4f/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 8:09 PM, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's an oil crisis? Maybe I don't understand the term. I hear the price is rising for liquid petroleum fuel products, but in a free market economy, that's not a crisis, it's an adjustment. Yes, unless I missed something, this is the idea of capitalism why have laws to prevent speeding or having giant SUV's. when capitalism at it's best (worst?) will eliminate those by itself when gas reaches $10 or $20 a gallon. Of course, this will be a big shock to our economy based on cheap fuel... sort of like when rabbit populations climb and then crash in massive die offs because all the food is gone. But, that's just what happens. We might want to think that we as humans are smart enough to adjust their natural behaviour in order to anticipate and transcend these boom and bust cycles that rabbits are subject too but I'm starting to think not Z It's the how-to-kill-a-mammoth problem. http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg30628.html [biofuel] Mammoth corporations There's no real oil crisis, or there's no shortage of oil anyway. There wasn't any shortage in 1973 either, though you might have had a hard time convincing the guys waiting in the queues of that. Then and now it's all about money, and with the same set of culprits (and it's not OPEC) - only five sisters now instead of seven then, but they're much bigger and richer. The anomaly is that nobody talks about the oil crisis despite all the panic over the food crisis, though the food crisis is just a spin-off of the oil non-crisis and it's just the same, all about money, no genuine shortage of supply, or not of production anyway, and with a few giant global corporations in control, all showing massive profits, and it's hurting people. With both oil and food (and gold) the price has been driven up mainly by market speculation, independent of supply factors or production costs. With the food crisis, at last people are finally starting to point the finger in that direction instead of shouting about shortages where there aren't any and blaming biofuels (agrofuels). Nothing good to be said about agrofuels, but it's not much of a factor in the food crisis, or not yet anyway. The market, at least as defined by agribusiness, isn't working. We have a herd of market traders, speculators and financial bandits who have turned wild and constructed a world of inequality and horror, says Jean Ziegler, the UN's right-to-food advocate. But try telling that to the Bush Administration or to World Bank president (and former White House trade rep) Robert Zoellick, who's busy exploiting tragedy to promote trade liberalization. If ever there is a time to cut distorting agricultural subsidies and open markets for food imports, it must be now, says Zoellick. Wait a second, replies Dani Rodrik, a Harvard political economist who tracks trade policy. Wouldn't the removal of these distorting policies raise world prices in agriculture even further? Yes. World Bank studies confirm that wheat and rice prices will rise if Zoellick gets his way. -- The World Food Crisis, by John Nichols, April 25, 2008, The Nation http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/25/8523/ David Coia of the USA Rice Federation said there is no rice shortage in the US. Global rice production will hit a record of 423 million tons in the 2007-2008 crop year, enough to satisfy global demand. The trouble is that only 7% of the world's rice supply is exported, because local demand is met by local production. Any significant increase in rice stockpiles cuts deeply into available supply for export, leading to a spike in prices. Because such a small proportion of the global rice supply trades, the monetary shock from the weak dollar was sufficient to more than double its price. -- Rice, death and the dollar, By Otto Spengler, Asia Times) http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Economy/JD22Dj01.html Right on, Hugo. There is no shortage of food; it's just the prices that are making food unaffordable. ... Food and energy prices are sucking the life out of the global economy. Foreign banks and pension funds are trying to protect their investments by diverting dollars into things that will retain their value. That's why oil is nudging $120 per barrel when it should be in the $70 to $80 range. According to Tim Evans, energy analyst at Citigroup in New York, There's no supply-demand deficit. None. In fact suppliers are expecting an oil surplus by the end of this year. -- Global Famine? Blame the Fed, by Mike Whitney http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article19809.htm It's time to stop worshiping at the alter of 'market forces', says Anuradha Mittal in Food Riots Erupt Worldwide, April 25, 2008: http://www.alternet.org/story/83457/ Faced with the global financial crisis and the collapse of mortgage-based securities, investors are flocking to resource-based
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
Kirk McLoren wrote: I am in favor of new laws - only if you recind an old one. There are so many laws now the only way you know you are breaking one is if they pinch you. Kirk I can't recall a time when I first learned of a law is when I was pinched. I'm still relatively young, perhaps there is time for me to experience this yet. :) What guarantee is there that any old law rescinded would be on that should be rescinded? An idea that could bite us in the butt if it had any chance of being implemented. Doug ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
Chip Mefford wrote: There were a *lot* of problems with this. I'm not going to go into it all, in fact, I'm barely going to scratch the surface. But essentially, the nationwide 55mph speed limit was about as popular as prohibition, and caused many of the same problems. That was interesting. No, not that the 55 speed limit was as popular as prohibition. The idea that the 55 speed limit created problems anywhere near those caused by prohibition. Please go into it, I may have missed something during those years, unless you where exercising your right to hyperbole. Doug, N0LKK Kansas USA inc. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
doug wrote: Hi, You are saying you got 56mpg from your Prius: I have a 307 Peugeot Diesel get ~17Km/L: ie about 50M/imp Gallon (about 10% bigger than a US Gallon I think: one of the few things the Poms can claim is bigger than in the States!!) If the Pug is driven with economy in mind, the recent Australian record is 2760 Km on 70L fuel: a 406 peugeot was driven from Rockhampton in Queensland to Melbourne on 1 tankful of fuel. The diesels leave the Priuses for dead! Yes, no argument. But somehow I doubt the dear old peugeot's can touch the prius on emissions. And I do love the peugeot's but peugeot wisely figured out that the US market just isn't worth the trouble :) Everyone knows that the prius is the worst of all cars, everyone loves to climb on and piss on it. That's fine with me. No harm, no foul. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
this planet hasn't seen a free market in over 600 years, beginning with the british empire. noone really knows what one looks like. people keep treating money like its a commodity, when its just multicolored scratch paper. if we could ever get back to trading value-added materials for goods and services, or- god forbid- goods and services for goods and services, then things might level out a bit. most people today would be lost in a world where needs were traded rather than pieces of paper. _ Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
Hi, You are saying you got 56mpg from your Prius: I have a 307 Peugeot Diesel get ~17Km/L: ie about 50M/imp Gallon (about 10% bigger than a US Gallon I think: one of the few things the Poms can claim is bigger than in the States!!) If the Pug is driven with economy in mind, the recent Australian record is 2760 Km on 70L fuel: a 406 peugeot was driven from Rockhampton in Queensland to Melbourne on 1 tankful of fuel. The diesels leave the Priuses for dead! regards Doug ps: the pug has all the accoutriments of modern vehicles, including flashing the emergency flashers when the anti-lock brakes are activated (a real surprise the first time it happened when a dog ran in front of the car!) On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 23:36:30 Chip Mefford wrote: Chris Burck wrote: | josh, this is like claiming the engine uses less fuel when it's shut | than when it's running. aerodymics aren't magic. a vehicle moving at | 65mph is still encountering more air resistance than when moving at | 55mph. there are many interesting aspects in automobile technology | today, yet today's average vehicle consumes more fuel than in years | past. it *may* be that today's vehicles are as aerodynamically | efficient at 65mph as earlier vehicles were at 55mph, but that seems | doubtful and in itself means little. gearing? a vehicle in 6th gear | (wish they'd started making them decades ago) will always consume less | fuel at 55mph than at 65mph. can you provide any citations to back up | these rather outlandish claims you make? Well, One of the most aerodynamic vehicles I've ever had the pleasure to drive is the 3rd (current) generation Toyota Prius. While I haven't logged a lot of miles in one, I've logged a few, and what I've found, is what one might expect. Driving like the more radical drivers suggest works. With the Prius's monitoring, you get really quick feedback on what the vehicle is doing. At highway speeds, momentum works. On one relatively short trip on limited access eastern highways and freeways, I managed to squeak 56 mpg average over 110 miles. Speed? anywhere from 32 to 88 mph. Gently accelerating on downgrades, using the internal combustion engine as little as possible, doing one's best to make the best use of the terrain, and paying no attention to speed 'limits' whatsoever, and letting the momentum gained from battery driven down grade acceleration, remarkable efficiency is possible. Average velocity for the trip? 54mph. 'Pulse and glide' on the flats, decelerating on the climbs, using gravity + some electrical power on the descents. While the Prius, as we all know, has that nifty ability to store energy in an battery bank, the overall concept still applies. This is how the old road tractor pilots used to drive. No regard for 'speed limits', and maximizing every advantage possible. Remember those miles long truck convoys of the 70s? Sometimes moving at incredible speeds? Those guys are paying attention to a lot of feedback that automobile drivers don't. They have exhaust temp monitoring, they have manifold pressure monitoring, they actually know where their torque bands on their power plants lie, most of them were gear heads, and grew up driving farm farm tractors from like age 12 or earlier. Good feel for machinery. Lorry drivers in Europe didn't operate like that, it's unsafe. Unsafe in a relative sense. But there used to be real good money in hauling freight in the US, and quite literally, a gallon saved was money earned. Folks like to point at a lot of statistics on fuel consumption in the US. Couple of things that I keep in mind, in the '70s', folks like to think that cars got better mileage. Well, wouldn't that depend on the car? My father was a big fan of VW beetles. He loved the things, bought his first new one in 62, and owned countless ones over the years, he finally got a diesel dasher, 3rd hand in 81 or so, and drove that thing for another few hundred thousand miles, averaging well over 50mpg the whole way, he could tease a few less drops per mile better than anyone I knew, and drove like there were eggs between his feet and the pedals, that should never be broken. But facts are, the modern highway is no place for a vw beetle, diesel rabbit, nor dasher. The cars on the road today have antilock brakes, traction control, more airbags than you can count, and are capable of crossing the lanes at full speed, and destroying a rabbit, slaughtering the occupants and walking away with a bruise or two, and the lawyers to make sure it doesn't cost anything. I quit driving rabbits about 5 years ago, I'm a hold out. Bought an old subaru outback wagon. It can take a hit, and I drive in the mid-atlantic a lot. Averaging over 25k a year. I can squeak 30+ mpg out of it, mixed-highway. on the weekends anyway. Folks want throw weight in an accident. and an accident is a given. It's assumed. Way back, decades ago, there was a speculative
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
On Thu, Apr 24, 2008 at 8:09 PM, Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There's an oil crisis? Maybe I don't understand the term. I hear the price is rising for liquid petroleum fuel products, but in a free market economy, that's not a crisis, it's an adjustment. Yes, unless I missed something, this is the idea of capitalism why have laws to prevent speeding or having giant SUV's. when capitalism at it's best (worst?) will eliminate those by itself when gas reaches $10 or $20 a gallon. Of course, this will be a big shock to our economy based on cheap fuel... sort of like when rabbit populations climb and then crash in massive die offs because all the food is gone. But, that's just what happens. We might want to think that we as humans are smart enough to adjust their natural behaviour in order to anticipate and transcend these boom and bust cycles that rabbits are subject too but I'm starting to think not Z ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
Very well put Chip. Too many people are overly-anxious to demand laws to fix what ought to be dealt with using common sense and/or market/social forces. Very often, laws are enacted to affect change for things which are changing anyway (say, in response to voter 'demand for action'). This can often lead to a backlash, as the results tend to swing too far in the desired direction. This is because the legislators are simply implimenting what is often happening on its own. Thus, we spend half our time legislating what 'ought to be the law,' and the other half trying to figgure out how to effectively rein-in the results of those laws. On the topic of speed limits specifically: Many cars now are actually more efficient at 65 MPH than they are at 55 MPH (due to gearing, aerodynamics, better tyres, etc). The other thing to consider when thinking about speed limits is time savings, and how that can affect accident rates. Many studies have shown that accident rates have decreased with the higher speed on US highways. This seems to be because drivers do not have to spend nearly as much time monitoring the speedometer, and they can relax more- simply driving at a speed that is comfortable. This leads to less fatigue, and therefore fewer accidents. Cleaning up accidents takes a significant amount of time and resources, and building new cars to replace crashed ones uses even more. Therefore, I put forward the idea that leaving the speed limits where they are will ultimately use less fuel than reducing the speed limits will. If petrol gets expensive enough, people will naturally begin to demand higher efficiency from their cars, and drive at the most efficient speed for their particular car. The most notable result of the 55 MPH speed limit was not actually fuel savings, but rather massive revenue gains for the Highway Patrol. Cheers, Josh - Original Message From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, 25 April, 2008 2:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now Brian Schneider wrote: Hello, Just a comment, why don't we in the US do something else that was done in the 70's oil crisis...drop the speed limit back to 55. There were a *lot* of problems with this. I'm not going to go into it all, in fact, I'm barely going to scratch the surface. But essentially, the nationwide 55mph speed limit was about as popular as prohibition, and caused many of the same problems. In interest of full disclosure, when ever I hear 'There ought to be a law, I duck. We have plenty of laws. a few orders of magnitude too many I'd say. In fact, I'd point to the current state of affairs as my primary exhibit in the 'laws don't fix anything' presentation. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080425/ad0ead5a/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
josh, this is like claiming the engine uses less fuel when it's shut than when it's running. aerodymics aren't magic. a vehicle moving at 65mph is still encountering more air resistance than when moving at 55mph. there are many interesting aspects in automobile technology today, yet today's average vehicle consumes more fuel than in years past. it *may* be that today's vehicles are as aerodynamically efficient at 65mph as earlier vehicles were at 55mph, but that seems doubtful and in itself means little. gearing? a vehicle in 6th gear (wish they'd started making them decades ago) will always consume less fuel at 55mph than at 65mph. can you provide any citations to back up these rather outlandish claims you make? On 4/25/08, Josh Boltrek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Very well put Chip. Too many people are overly-anxious to demand laws to fix what ought to be dealt with using common sense and/or market/social forces. Very often, laws are enacted to affect change for things which are changing anyway (say, in response to voter 'demand for action'). This can often lead to a backlash, as the results tend to swing too far in the desired direction. This is because the legislators are simply implimenting what is often happening on its own. Thus, we spend half our time legislating what 'ought to be the law,' and the other half trying to figgure out how to effectively rein-in the results of those laws. On the topic of speed limits specifically: Many cars now are actually more efficient at 65 MPH than they are at 55 MPH (due to gearing, aerodynamics, better tyres, etc). The other thing to consider when thinking about speed limits is time savings, and how that can affect accident rates. Many studies have shown that accident rates have decreased with the higher speed on US highways. This seems to be because drivers do not have to spend nearly as much time monitoring the speedometer, and they can relax more- simply driving at a speed that is comfortable. This leads to less fatigue, and therefore fewer accidents. Cleaning up accidents takes a significant amount of time and resources, and building new cars to replace crashed ones uses even more. Therefore, I put forward the idea that leaving the speed limits where they are will ultimately use less fuel than reducing the speed limits will. If petrol gets expensive enough, people will naturally begin to demand higher efficiency from their cars, and drive at the most efficient speed for their particular car. The most notable result of the 55 MPH speed limit was not actually fuel savings, but rather massive revenue gains for the Highway Patrol. Cheers, Josh - Original Message From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, 25 April, 2008 2:46:30 AM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now Brian Schneider wrote: Hello, Just a comment, why don't we in the US do something else that was done in the 70's oil crisis...drop the speed limit back to 55. There were a *lot* of problems with this. I'm not going to go into it all, in fact, I'm barely going to scratch the surface. But essentially, the nationwide 55mph speed limit was about as popular as prohibition, and caused many of the same problems. In interest of full disclosure, when ever I hear 'There ought to be a law, I duck. We have plenty of laws. a few orders of magnitude too many I'd say. In fact, I'd point to the current state of affairs as my primary exhibit in the 'laws don't fix anything' presentation. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080425/ad0ead5a/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
and the factors that play into fuel consumption are legion. It's completely possible to get better mileage at 65 than 55, but highly unlikely. And nothing, and I mean nothing is worse, than lock-step, high density traffic spaced out far enough to be buffeted about by the turbulence, but unable to take advantage of the low pressure, blah blah blah, in other words, the over-crowded US highway, here in the east anyway. Basically, the whole model is broken, it doesn't work, and it needs to be done away with. A nationwide 55mph speed limit is a piece of ducttape over a rent in a ocean freighter's hull. It's a gesture, but that's all it is. The 'Interstate' system is a bad idea. an overcrowded interstate system is a idea that's orders of magnitude worse. But that's what we have, and it needs to go away. mornings | | On 4/25/08, Josh Boltrek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Very well put Chip. Too many people are overly-anxious to demand laws to | fix what ought to be dealt with using common sense and/or market/social | forces. Very often, laws are enacted to affect change for things which are | changing anyway (say, in response to voter 'demand for action'). This can | often lead to a backlash, as the results tend to swing too far in the | desired direction. This is because the legislators are simply implimenting | what is often happening on its own. Thus, we spend half our time | legislating what 'ought to be the law,' and the other half trying to figgure | out how to effectively rein-in the results of those laws. | | On the topic of speed limits specifically: Many cars now are actually more | efficient at 65 MPH than they are at 55 MPH (due to gearing, aerodynamics, | better tyres, etc). The other thing to consider when thinking about speed | limits is time savings, and how that can affect accident rates. Many | studies have shown that accident rates have decreased with the higher speed | on US highways. This seems to be because drivers do not have to spend | nearly as much time monitoring the speedometer, and they can relax more- | simply driving at a speed that is comfortable. This leads to less fatigue, | and therefore fewer accidents. Cleaning up accidents takes a significant | amount of time and resources, and building new cars to replace crashed ones | uses even more. | | Therefore, I put forward the idea that leaving the speed limits where they | are will ultimately use less fuel than reducing the speed limits will. If | petrol gets expensive enough, people will naturally begin to demand higher | efficiency from their cars, and drive at the most efficient speed for their | particular car. The most notable result of the 55 MPH speed limit was not | actually fuel savings, but rather massive revenue gains for the Highway | Patrol. | | Cheers, | | Josh | | | | - Original Message | From: Chip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org | Sent: Friday, 25 April, 2008 2:46:30 AM | Subject: Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now | | Brian Schneider wrote: | Hello, | Just a comment, why don't we in the US do something else that was | done in the 70's oil crisis...drop the speed limit back to 55. | There were a *lot* of problems with this. I'm not going to | go into it all, in fact, I'm barely going to scratch the | surface. But essentially, the nationwide 55mph speed limit | was about as popular as prohibition, and caused many of | the same problems. | | In interest of full disclosure, | when ever I hear 'There ought to be a law, | I duck. | | We have plenty of laws. a few orders of magnitude | too many I'd say. In fact, I'd point to the | current state of affairs as my primary exhibit | in the 'laws don't fix anything' presentation. | | | ___ | Biofuel mailing list | Biofuel@sustainablelists.org | http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel | | Biofuel at Journey to Forever: | http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html | | Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 | messages): | http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ | | | Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. | www.yahoo7.com.au/y7mail | -- next part -- | An HTML attachment was scrubbed... | URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080425/ad0ead5a/attachment.html | ___ | Biofuel mailing list | Biofuel@sustainablelists.org | http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel | | Biofuel at Journey to Forever: | http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html | | Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 | messages): | http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ | | | ___ | Biofuel mailing list | Biofuel@sustainablelists.org | http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel | | Biofuel
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Chip Mefford wrote: | Chris Burck wrote: | | josh, this is like claiming the engine uses less fuel when it's shut - -SNIP | | Well, - - SNIP | It's assumed. Way back, decades ago, there was a speculative fiction | story in Road Track called 'A nice morning drive' the plot of which Lol! I had figured this story had been long since lost to the dust of time, but no, someone else liked it apparently, and has a copy online; http://www.2112.net/xanadu/articles/a_nice_morning_drive.htm -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIEeSNlwL/NsEHg6sRAm8YAJ4i7uonXg1kt/AEnUlDNFtZrwLvkwCeJppH Go+DVAAe2RSFoEJvlR1wyqo= =wJRY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
Well, I happen to drive a VW Jetta TDI that does get good fuel milage. I consistently get between 45 and 49 mpg and can go over 600 miles per tank of fuel. But I do notice that my milage does drop a little when I am on the interstate driving the speed limit or better (to keep up with traffic) as compared to when I am on the back roads doing 55. Brian On Apr 24, 2008, at 6:33 PM, Perry Jones wrote: Then mandate higher fuel efficiency in vehicles. Oh, I know, put the onus on the victims as has been done throughout history. What do you drive? What is your fuel efficiency at 30 mph? When it matches mine at 75 mph then talk to me. Otherwise, this ain't one of the solutions. Perry Jones Brian Schneider wrote: So then what would be the suggestion? Sometimes laws are necessary to help or protect those who can't or won't do it them selves. If on a national level if lowering the speed limit 10 to 15 mph would help decrease our dependance on foreign oil or any oil for that matter then it should be addressed regardless of how popular or unpopular it is. Granted there are some laws that are nonsense, but they are necessary because without most of them there would be utter chaos. Brian On Apr 24, 2008, at 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
I have a 2002 Golf: on a flat road at 1850 rpm or about 59 mph, it gets close to 60 mpg. On I 95 in the US, where it is impossible to go less than 70 mph without being killed by a trucker, the mileage drops into the high 40's, at 80 or so, into the low 40's. If I had another gear (6th) I think it would do better. -Mike Brian Schneider wrote: Well, I happen to drive a VW Jetta TDI that does get good fuel milage. I consistently get between 45 and 49 mpg and can go over 600 miles per tank of fuel. But I do notice that my milage does drop a little when I am on the interstate driving the speed limit or better (to keep up with traffic) as compared to when I am on the back roads doing 55. Brian On Apr 24, 2008, at 6:33 PM, Perry Jones wrote: Then mandate higher fuel efficiency in vehicles. Oh, I know, put the onus on the victims as has been done throughout history. What do you drive? What is your fuel efficiency at 30 mph? When it matches mine at 75 mph then talk to me. Otherwise, this ain't one of the solutions. Perry Jones Brian Schneider wrote: So then what would be the suggestion? Sometimes laws are necessary to help or protect those who can't or won't do it them selves. If on a national level if lowering the speed limit 10 to 15 mph would help decrease our dependance on foreign oil or any oil for that matter then it should be addressed regardless of how popular or unpopular it is. Granted there are some laws that are nonsense, but they are necessary because without most of them there would be utter chaos. Brian On Apr 24, 2008, at 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
Hello, Just a comment, why don't we in the US do something else that was done in the 70's oil crisis...drop the speed limit back to 55. It is proven to reduce the amount of fuel being used by in some estimates 15 to 20 percent. People that I have talked about that to seem repulsed by the notion of taking a few additional minutes to get to their location. So again it goes back to what are we willing to do to stop this current crisis. Unfortunately here in the states not much Brian Schneider On Apr 24, 2008, at 8:23 AM, Keith Addison wrote: Google News gives 6,293 results for a search for food crisis, but only 267 results for oil crisis, and most of them are about the 1973 crisis or the coming Peak Oil crisis, not this one right now, though it's the main cause of the food crisis. Here's a news comment that discusses the oil crisis: http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/03/25/oil-prices-election-cars- oped-cx_jf_0325flint.html Backseat Driver We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now Jerry Flint 03.25.08, 12:00 PM ET I am writing this column against the advice and wishes of my editor, because I believe that America is in danger and we must do whatever it takes to save the country. My recommendations about keeping oil prices under control may not be great ideas--or even good ideas. My point: As a nation, we need to start thinking about the problem and preparing ourselves to take drastic steps if necessary. First, let me say that the Saudis are right. The climbing price of oil has nothing to do with the Arabs or oil inventories or even with supply and demand. This is something new. Right now, the world has plenty of oil. Inventories are strong and industrial activity in the U.S. is slackening. Yet the price has risen, pushed up by the decline of the dollar and the eagerness of investors or speculators--hedge funds, pension funds and every other type of fund. The Dow Jones industrial average is 1,700 points below its 2007 peak and the stock market remains nervous and volatile. The real estate downturn and the problems with mortgage-backed securities have scared off investors. The smart money is now moving into oil--just as it has done with gold. Understand that the price of gold has little to do with the demand of jewelers and industrial users of the metal; buying gold is a bet against financial stability. Gold, at close to $1,000 an ounce, recently hit a peak in nominal dollars. Traditionally, we expect such bubbles, such as oil prices, to burst. That has yet to happen, even after Congress passed legislation requiring new-car fuel economy of 35 miles to the gallon in 2020 and and a huge increase in alternative fuels by 2022. I have not heard any of the presidential candidates get serious about rising oil prices, and I was disappointed in Sen. Hillary Clinton, who made fun of President Bush because he could not convince the Saudis to pump more oil. She implied that she could. How? Frankly, I think it is a bit foolish to push others to step up drilling when we will not drill for oil in new fields in icy Alaska. Maybe we will be back to $80 a barrel or even cheaper by next week. On the other hand, I am deeply concerned about what would happen to our economy if oil goes to $200 a barrel. Think of it for a moment. Not only would American motorists be paying much more at the pump, but bills for home heating, air conditioning and electricity would double. Oil at $200 a barrel would push up the price of every good and service--from food, airfares and shipping costs to plastic containers, apparel and asphalt. Under such circumstances, I would expect to see the government embark on a massive program of energy subsidies. Our currency is another problem, as countries currently pay for oil in dollars. When the dollar declines, sellers want more dollars to make up for the loss in its value. We are already hearing rumblings from oil-producing countries about accepting payment in another currency, such as the euro. All I can do is throw out some thoughts and ask everyone--especially those aspiring to be president--to start thinking about this problem. My first suggestion is that we first straighten out our own financial house. I propose the old cure: that we stop spending more than we take in, and that we balance the budget. Our national debt is now $9 trillion and the annual interest payments are more than $400 billion. If this means drastic spending cuts and higher taxes, so be it. This is an economic crisis. Heck, President Clinton was able to balance the budget. Next, we need to do something about the speculation in oil. Many experts tell us that we should do nothing, and that whatever steps we take will make things worse. They could be correct. We are in uncharted territory. A stiff tax on oil profits from speculation sounds leftist, but I think it is something we should consider. Another option is a high margin
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
Brian Schneider wrote: Hello, Just a comment, why don't we in the US do something else that was done in the 70's oil crisis...drop the speed limit back to 55. There were a *lot* of problems with this. I'm not going to go into it all, in fact, I'm barely going to scratch the surface. But essentially, the nationwide 55mph speed limit was about as popular as prohibition, and caused many of the same problems. In interest of full disclosure, when ever I hear 'There ought to be a law, I duck. We have plenty of laws. a few orders of magnitude too many I'd say. In fact, I'd point to the current state of affairs as my primary exhibit in the 'laws don't fix anything' presentation. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
So then what would be the suggestion? Sometimes laws are necessary to help or protect those who can't or won't do it them selves. If on a national level if lowering the speed limit 10 to 15 mph would help decrease our dependance on foreign oil or any oil for that matter then it should be addressed regardless of how popular or unpopular it is. Granted there are some laws that are nonsense, but they are necessary because without most of them there would be utter chaos. Brian On Apr 24, 2008, at 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: Brian Schneider wrote: Hello, Just a comment, why don't we in the US do something else that was done in the 70's oil crisis...drop the speed limit back to 55. There were a *lot* of problems with this. I'm not going to go into it all, in fact, I'm barely going to scratch the surface. But essentially, the nationwide 55mph speed limit was about as popular as prohibition, and caused many of the same problems. In interest of full disclosure, when ever I hear 'There ought to be a law, I duck. We have plenty of laws. a few orders of magnitude too many I'd say. In fact, I'd point to the current state of affairs as my primary exhibit in the 'laws don't fix anything' presentation. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
I am in favor of new laws - only if you recind an old one. There are so many laws now the only way you know you are breaking one is if they pinch you. Kirk Brian Schneider [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So then what would be the suggestion? Sometimes laws are necessary to help or protect those who can't or won't do it them selves. If on a national level if lowering the speed limit 10 to 15 mph would help decrease our dependance on foreign oil or any oil for that matter then it should be addressed regardless of how popular or unpopular it is. Granted there are some laws that are nonsense, but they are necessary because without most of them there would be utter chaos. Brian On Apr 24, 2008, at 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: Brian Schneider wrote: Hello, Just a comment, why don't we in the US do something else that was done in the 70's oil crisis...drop the speed limit back to 55. There were a *lot* of problems with this. I'm not going to go into it all, in fact, I'm barely going to scratch the surface. But essentially, the nationwide 55mph speed limit was about as popular as prohibition, and caused many of the same problems. In interest of full disclosure, when ever I hear 'There ought to be a law, I duck. We have plenty of laws. a few orders of magnitude too many I'd say. In fact, I'd point to the current state of affairs as my primary exhibit in the 'laws don't fix anything' presentation. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080424/dcc10a2b/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
Speed limits should not be set at the national level, it's a state or municipal issue. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Schneider Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:26 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now So then what would be the suggestion? Sometimes laws are necessary to help or protect those who can't or won't do it them selves. If on a national level if lowering the speed limit 10 to 15 mph would help decrease our dependance on foreign oil or any oil for that matter then it should be addressed regardless of how popular or unpopular it is. Granted there are some laws that are nonsense, but they are necessary because without most of them there would be utter chaos. Brian On Apr 24, 2008, at 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: Brian Schneider wrote: Hello, Just a comment, why don't we in the US do something else that was done in the 70's oil crisis...drop the speed limit back to 55. There were a *lot* of problems with this. I'm not going to go into it all, in fact, I'm barely going to scratch the surface. But essentially, the nationwide 55mph speed limit was about as popular as prohibition, and caused many of the same problems. In interest of full disclosure, when ever I hear 'There ought to be a law, I duck. We have plenty of laws. a few orders of magnitude too many I'd say. In fact, I'd point to the current state of affairs as my primary exhibit in the 'laws don't fix anything' presentation. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
I was going to say the same. Not sure on how to do it, but it's going to take a full-fledged attitude change from everyone - not more legislation. How do you convince an entire nation that, for the good of the country and oneself, not to buy the Hummer, to car-pool, stop eating GM foods, and avoid high-fructose corn syrup. The argument continues to school shootings, drugs, etc. When did these things become OK? More laws don't fix a damn thing - look at the 'War on Drugs' or Washington DC where handgun ownership is illegal and the crime is the worst in the country. Chip Mefford wrote: Brian Schneider wrote: Hello, Just a comment, why don't we in the US do something else that was done in the 70's oil crisis...drop the speed limit back to 55. There were a *lot* of problems with this. I'm not going to go into it all, in fact, I'm barely going to scratch the surface. But essentially, the nationwide 55mph speed limit was about as popular as prohibition, and caused many of the same problems. In interest of full disclosure, when ever I hear 'There ought to be a law, I duck. We have plenty of laws. a few orders of magnitude too many I'd say. In fact, I'd point to the current state of affairs as my primary exhibit in the 'laws don't fix anything' presentation. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080424/eda842c3/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
Laws should be a last resort, but they tend not to be because they're far easier to put in place and are great at making it look like something is being done while not necessarily achieving anything. Also, the point being made by Chip (I think) is that the consequences of making a law must be taken into account. Of course, just because the law had bad consequences previously doesn't mean it'll happen the same way again and, as you point out, laws are not always bad. All that being said, there are other ways to address the problem. Some seemingly simple ones are -Don't drive gas-guzzling cars. A 4 cylinder 1.3l vehicle is likely to suffice for a lot of people. -Don't drive when you don't need to. If you're going somewhere nearby and you don't actually need the car then walk or cycle. -Drive more conservatively (by that I mean do things like accelerate gently, not drive slower). Those are just off the top of my head. Another one that I imagine could actually save a lot - don't drive around and around looking for a parking spot right next to where you're going, park and walk. I used to laugh often when I went to big shopping centers and the like - I would generally drive to the space closest to where I was going that was obviously free, park, get out and walk, watching other people who'd been there, in their cars when I arrived, get more and more frustrated as they wasted time and fuel driving around and around looking for a parking spot near the entrance, or whatever. Sometimes I'd walk past an open spot closer than I'd parked, but generally I saved a lot of time. Of course, now I ride a motorcycle. Most of these things can't be legislated, except perhaps the engine size one. Mostly they require changes in attitude. If people aren't prepared to change their attitude then creating new laws probably won't help that much, either. Cheers Craig -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Schneider Sent: 24 April 2008 07:26 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now So then what would be the suggestion? Sometimes laws are necessary to help or protect those who can't or won't do it them selves. If on a national level if lowering the speed limit 10 to 15 mph would help decrease our dependance on foreign oil or any oil for that matter then it should be addressed regardless of how popular or unpopular it is. Granted there are some laws that are nonsense, but they are necessary because without most of them there would be utter chaos. Brian On Apr 24, 2008, at 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: Brian Schneider wrote: Hello, Just a comment, why don't we in the US do something else that was done in the 70's oil crisis...drop the speed limit back to 55. There were a *lot* of problems with this. I'm not going to go into it all, in fact, I'm barely going to scratch the surface. But essentially, the nationwide 55mph speed limit was about as popular as prohibition, and caused many of the same problems. In interest of full disclosure, when ever I hear 'There ought to be a law, I duck. We have plenty of laws. a few orders of magnitude too many I'd say. In fact, I'd point to the current state of affairs as my primary exhibit in the 'laws don't fix anything' presentation. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Brian Schneider wrote: | So then what would be the suggestion? Sometimes laws are necessary | to help or protect those who can't or won't do it them selves. | If on a national level if lowering the speed limit 10 to 15 mph would | help decrease our dependance on foreign oil or any oil for that | matter then it should be addressed regardless of how popular or | unpopular it is. Couple of points, you appear to assume that if the law were passed, it would be obeyed. It would not. It wasn't obeyed then, it most certainly would not be obeyed now. What it would do, is further erode what threads of respect for the national law making process still remain, and there are damned few of those. That's for certain. What it would further do, there would be those who would obey the law, and at least as many who would not obey the law, the schism between these people would widen even further than it already has, which is pretty broad, and clearly evidenced in what folks call 'road rage'. The already completely overwhelmed police who are tasked with enforcing these laws, which they have pretty much given up on already, as they are out chasing after the 'war on some drugs' and other such socioeconomic distractions would fall even further in the eyes of those they are supposed to 'serve and protect' and they are already low enough. The schism that exists between the law enforcers and the public at large, would deepen even further (and yes, that is most certainly possible) And no earthly good will come of that. But all of that is of course subject to point of view, and at it's best, academic in scope. More below: | Granted there are some laws that are nonsense, but they are necessary | because without most of them there would be utter chaos. I wholly and completely disagree. I (in a knee jerk manner, admittedly) reject the notion that without a framework of 'laws from on high' that people would turn on each other in a cannabalistic rage and eventually die off from a poor diet. I further submit that laws, as such, as the law as practiced in the us, is basically all about protecting the 'property rights' of the 'property holders', the more property, the more rights protected by law, that there is a huge a vast abyss that lies between what is moral and what is legal, and by extension, what is immoral and what is illegal. So, am I suggesting to remove the force of law and let the chips fall where they may? of course not. That's silly, and it begs to the absurd. But I do say that the society as a whole is already very sick, and just adding more patchwork fixes on top isn't going to make it better. So, back to your original opening line: | So then what would be the suggestion? What I would suggest, is that the entire system be examined with a critical eye. very critical eye. On the one hand, I say, give the 'free market' folks exactly what they want. Let the market decide. But of course, that road leads to ruin, and no one really wants to go there. So, look closely, what do you see? Truck freight is one thing I see right away. On the one hand, the smaller trucking operations are starting to close up shop and go away. Who benefits? Well, the large truck shops of course, the ones where the driver is an employee, not a vested owner. Multinational freight forwarding and 'logistics' outfits that handle all the container cargo, air freight and the like come to mind. While the independent dies off, they get tax incentives to bury farm land under million squarefoot warehouse roofs. I'd take a close look at that. I'd take a close look at air freight, used to do things like put grapes on grocery store aisles in january in washington DC that were shipped in last night from Argentina. And probably doing so under huge, and I mean huge tax subsidies or outright payoff-bailouts. Yeah, I'd take a close look at that. from a prior post: ~From somewhere around here: http://www.mail-archive.com/sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg70239.html | How long ago was it that Bush1 made up the | transportation policy for 'the next 20 years' | for the US? | | All I remember, is that I recently out of the service | having spent the previous 18 months in (then) western | Europe, and was already a big fan of bicycling. | | I was really hoping to hear about major investment | in light rail, revamping heavy (freight) rail lines | and of course the idea that is so good it's almost | stupid, radical investment in bike-friendly transportation | infrastructure. | | Having seen this all over Europe, I was convinced | that my home country, the USA would embrace this | approach, it just makes so much sense. | What a naive fool. Even then, in my 30s, I had | yet to grasp how idiotic my culture can be. | | Bush1 gave it all away, gave a great speech | about revamping our then crumbling interstate | highway infrastructure, to the joyful salutations | of the automobile, trucking, and local porkbarrel |
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kirk McLoren wrote: | I am in favor of new laws - only if you recind an old one. There are so many laws now the only way you know you are breaking one is if they pinch you. | Kirk Lol! I'd say rescind at least 100 old per 1 new. Actually should 1000, so you'd counter with 10, so we could get to 100. :) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIENUzlwL/NsEHg6sRAjwvAJ0e0cyu0I2LPDbpl25AGnfvysjvSQCgwCer oO9aIdXAlBD3Q039A2wDTN4= =ywh0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
More laws don't fix a damn thing - look at the 'War on Drugs' or Washington DC where handgun ownership is illegal and the crime is the worst in the country. Even more disgusting is how laws are enforced, in Denver, Co, they have a concealed weapons ban, which conflicts with the state that allows for concealed weapons, the state has sued the city over it, yet Denver enforces this city law. The city also has legalized possession of less than an ounce of marijuana, and passed a second law that makes marijuana the lowest priority of law enforcement, yet arrests for possession are up, how can that be? The denver police enforce the State law, banning it. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Roger Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2008 11:28 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now I was going to say the same. Not sure on how to do it, but it's going to take a full-fledged attitude change from everyone - not more legislation. How do you convince an entire nation that, for the good of the country and oneself, not to buy the Hummer, to car-pool, stop eating GM foods, and avoid high-fructose corn syrup. The argument continues to school shootings, drugs, etc. When did these things become OK? More laws don't fix a damn thing - look at the 'War on Drugs' or Washington DC where handgun ownership is illegal and the crime is the worst in the country. Chip Mefford wrote: Brian Schneider wrote: Hello, Just a comment, why don't we in the US do something else that was done in the 70's oil crisis...drop the speed limit back to 55. There were a *lot* of problems with this. I'm not going to go into it all, in fact, I'm barely going to scratch the surface. But essentially, the nationwide 55mph speed limit was about as popular as prohibition, and caused many of the same problems. In interest of full disclosure, when ever I hear 'There ought to be a law, I duck. We have plenty of laws. a few orders of magnitude too many I'd say. In fact, I'd point to the current state of affairs as my primary exhibit in the 'laws don't fix anything' presentation. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20080424/eda842c3/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
Interesting conversation. We all agree that the one thing that needs to happen is a change in attitude of people about fuel use or fuel conservation. I am afraid that we are living in a country that has had it too easy too long and no one is going to change anything (or should I say most) until they are forced to. I know that not many people obey the speed limit and changing it would not make much of a difference, I will concede that fact, but will they be willing to make other changes on their own without any external influence? More than likely not, most do not like the inconvenience of doing things differently. I am a public school teacher in a rural area. I see the kids attitudes about certain things and most of them are not what I would consider to be old enough to have a firm grasp on their opinions, so most of them hear things at home and that becomes what they believe. Truly it concerns me with their attitudes. They don't want anyone telling them what to do or how to do anything. They don't value education for the most part and think that their time spent in high school is a big waste of their time. I know first hand what it can be to try to get them to change on even the smallest of ideas, so when we start mentioning that they should drive smaller cars and etc, they will not be for that at all. The only thing that is going to change the mind of many people is when we feel the effects of what we are doing. Then and only then will change precipitate out and people be concerned about what they are doing. To me it is a sad commentary on our lives in this country. Most think that the only person that matters is me Brian On Apr 24, 2008, at 2:45 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kirk McLoren wrote: | I am in favor of new laws - only if you recind an old one. There are so many laws now the only way you know you are breaking one is if they pinch you. | Kirk Lol! I'd say rescind at least 100 old per 1 new. Actually should 1000, so you'd counter with 10, so we could get to 100. :) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIENUzlwL/NsEHg6sRAjwvAJ0e0cyu0I2LPDbpl25AGnfvysjvSQCgwCer oO9aIdXAlBD3Q039A2wDTN4= =ywh0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
laws definitely do matter. just because there are a lot of stupid laws, that's no reason to discourage or oppose sensible ones. there's nothing wrong with a 55mph speed limit. did people ignore it? sure. did most people ignore it? not a chance. people violate the speed limit more now than ever. On 4/24/08, Brian Schneider [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting conversation. We all agree that the one thing that needs to happen is a change in attitude of people about fuel use or fuel conservation. I am afraid that we are living in a country that has had it too easy too long and no one is going to change anything (or should I say most) until they are forced to. I know that not many people obey the speed limit and changing it would not make much of a difference, I will concede that fact, but will they be willing to make other changes on their own without any external influence? More than likely not, most do not like the inconvenience of doing things differently. I am a public school teacher in a rural area. I see the kids attitudes about certain things and most of them are not what I would consider to be old enough to have a firm grasp on their opinions, so most of them hear things at home and that becomes what they believe. Truly it concerns me with their attitudes. They don't want anyone telling them what to do or how to do anything. They don't value education for the most part and think that their time spent in high school is a big waste of their time. I know first hand what it can be to try to get them to change on even the smallest of ideas, so when we start mentioning that they should drive smaller cars and etc, they will not be for that at all. The only thing that is going to change the mind of many people is when we feel the effects of what we are doing. Then and only then will change precipitate out and people be concerned about what they are doing. To me it is a sad commentary on our lives in this country. Most think that the only person that matters is me Brian On Apr 24, 2008, at 2:45 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kirk McLoren wrote: | I am in favor of new laws - only if you recind an old one. There are so many laws now the only way you know you are breaking one is if they pinch you. | Kirk Lol! I'd say rescind at least 100 old per 1 new. Actually should 1000, so you'd counter with 10, so we could get to 100. :) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFIENUzlwL/NsEHg6sRAjwvAJ0e0cyu0I2LPDbpl25AGnfvysjvSQCgwCer oO9aIdXAlBD3Q039A2wDTN4= =ywh0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
There's an oil crisis? Maybe I don't understand the term. I hear the price is rising for liquid petroleum fuel products, but in a free market economy, that's not a crisis, it's an adjustment. Is anyone with enough money actually unable to obtain oil products? Oddly, I'm not hearing that the price of petroleum-based plastics is going up. Could it possibly be that now the Saudis no longer have the capacity to be the world's swing producer, that the world oil cartel is manipulating the market for their own benefit? Today I travelled via public transit powered by biodiesel-blend fuel, by electric car, and on foot. Others are content to complain about fuel prices; I would rather do something constructive about it. As for peak food, I'm similarly skeptical. I don't see a lack of product on store shelves here. I am aware that former farmland near here is being consumed rapidly to put up more housing and roads and urban sprawl. Other former farmland is lying fallow, in some cases encouraged by government programs. Our local farmers are still having a hard time making a decent living, so are still exiting the farms to take office jobs. So, having prices go up enough to let them make a reasonable living doesn't upset me. Anyone know the status of rice, grain and other food staples reserves held by various countries around the world? Are those cupboards bare, or are nations hoarding? Apparently there is such a surplus of pork locally that the bottom is fallling out from under the price of that food. Of course, not of much use to Muslims and Jews. However, meat consumption is rising worldwide, and that's got to be a point of demand for grains. My little garden is started in the basement under fluorscent lighting. Looks like it's going to be a good year for tomatoes and a couple of heirloom oddities I am trying for the first time (ground cherries and a variety of musk melon intended for short growing season). Our next crisis is going to be fresh water, which seems a bit humourous here in Canada where we have more fresh surface water per capita than any other country in the world. Well, I'm going to try to do something about that too. Not ready to discuss that yet in a public forum, but soon, I hope. Darryl McMahon Keith Addison wrote: Google News gives 6,293 results for a search for food crisis, but only 267 results for oil crisis, and most of them are about the 1973 crisis or the coming Peak Oil crisis, not this one right now, though it's the main cause of the food crisis. Here's a news comment that discusses the oil crisis: http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/03/25/oil-prices-election-cars-oped-cx_jf_0325flint.html Backseat Driver We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now Jerry Flint 03.25.08, 12:00 PM ET I am writing this column against the advice and wishes of my editor, because I believe that America is in danger and we must do whatever it takes to save the country. My recommendations about keeping oil prices under control may not be great ideas--or even good ideas. My point: As a nation, we need to start thinking about the problem and preparing ourselves to take drastic steps if necessary. First, let me say that the Saudis are right. The climbing price of oil has nothing to do with the Arabs or oil inventories or even with supply and demand. This is something new. Right now, the world has plenty of oil. Inventories are strong and industrial activity in the U.S. is slackening. Yet the price has risen, pushed up by the decline of the dollar and the eagerness of investors or speculators--hedge funds, pension funds and every other type of fund. The Dow Jones industrial average is 1,700 points below its 2007 peak and the stock market remains nervous and volatile. The real estate downturn and the problems with mortgage-backed securities have scared off investors. The smart money is now moving into oil--just as it has done with gold. Understand that the price of gold has little to do with the demand of jewelers and industrial users of the metal; buying gold is a bet against financial stability. Gold, at close to $1,000 an ounce, recently hit a peak in nominal dollars. Traditionally, we expect such bubbles, such as oil prices, to burst. That has yet to happen, even after Congress passed legislation requiring new-car fuel economy of 35 miles to the gallon in 2020 and and a huge increase in alternative fuels by 2022. I have not heard any of the presidential candidates get serious about rising oil prices, and I was disappointed in Sen. Hillary Clinton, who made fun of President Bush because he could not convince the Saudis to pump more oil. She implied that she could. How? Frankly, I think it is a bit foolish to push others to step up drilling when we will not drill for oil in new fields in icy Alaska. Maybe we will be back to $80 a barrel or even cheaper by next week. On the other hand, I
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
Then mandate higher fuel efficiency in vehicles. Oh, I know, put the onus on the victims as has been done throughout history. What do you drive? What is your fuel efficiency at 30 mph? When it matches mine at 75 mph then talk to me. Otherwise, this ain't one of the solutions. Perry Jones Brian Schneider wrote: So then what would be the suggestion? Sometimes laws are necessary to help or protect those who can't or won't do it them selves. If on a national level if lowering the speed limit 10 to 15 mph would help decrease our dependance on foreign oil or any oil for that matter then it should be addressed regardless of how popular or unpopular it is. Granted there are some laws that are nonsense, but they are necessary because without most of them there would be utter chaos. Brian On Apr 24, 2008, at 1:16 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now
well, if the ice age is coming, then maybe we all need hummers and big trucks to create more green house gasses ;) 55 is fine for the densely populate tracts of america (the coasts), but its going to be a rea hard sell in the vast expanses of the middle of the country. The federal government is good at the one size fits most things, but that never fits all, and while 55 may actually save fuel and reduce polution, you try selling that on i-80 when you're driving a 1000 miles through the middle of no-where. again, I say this is a state issue, not federal, maybe we cut all the 75mph zones to 65, and 65 to 55, but 55 across the board probably won't fly. Not that I'm worried it would, its political suicide to try pass it again, and we all know that politicians don't do anything that would jeopardize thier careers. Instead, maybe what we ought to do is make things like cat-back exhaust system and cold air intake systems that make pretty much any vehicle get another 2-4 mpg mandatory. The nice thing about that is that it would only affect the prices of new cars, which are not mandatory purchases anyway, and will only affect those that choose to buy them. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Chris Burck Sent: Thu 4/24/2008 6:40 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] We Need To Solve The Oil Crisis--Now laws definitely do matter. just because there are a lot of stupid laws, that's no reason to discourage or oppose sensible ones. there's nothing wrong with a 55mph speed limit. did people ignore it? sure. did most people ignore it? not a chance. people violate the speed limit more now than ever. On 4/24/08, Brian Schneider [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Interesting conversation. We all agree that the one thing that needs to happen is a change in attitude of people about fuel use or fuel conservation. I am afraid that we are living in a country that has had it too easy too long and no one is going to change anything (or should I say most) until they are forced to. I know that not many people obey the speed limit and changing it would not make much of a difference, I will concede that fact, but will they be willing to make other changes on their own without any external influence? More than likely not, most do not like the inconvenience of doing things differently. I am a public school teacher in a rural area. I see the kids attitudes about certain things and most of them are not what I would consider to be old enough to have a firm grasp on their opinions, so most of them hear things at home and that becomes what they believe. Truly it concerns me with their attitudes. They don't want anyone telling them what to do or how to do anything. They don't value education for the most part and think that their time spent in high school is a big waste of their time. I know first hand what it can be to try to get them to change on even the smallest of ideas, so when we start mentioning that they should drive smaller cars and etc, they will not be for that at all. The only thing that is going to change the mind of many people is when we feel the effects of what we are doing. Then and only then will change precipitate out and people be concerned about what they are doing. To me it is a sad commentary on our lives in this country. Most think that the only person that matters is me Brian On Apr 24, 2008, at 2:45 PM, Chip Mefford wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kirk McLoren wrote: | I am in favor of new laws - only if you recind an old one. There are so many laws now the only way you know you are breaking one is if they pinch you. | Kirk Lol! I'd say rescind at least 100 old per 1 new. Actually should 1000, so you'd counter with 10, so we could get to 100. :) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iD8DBQFIENUzlwL/NsEHg6sRAjwvAJ0e0cyu0I2LPDbpl25AGnfvysjvSQCgwCer oO9aIdXAlBD3Q039A2wDTN4= =ywh0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org
