Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: In a message dated 05/10/2004 9:50:16 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You guys went to school/college together? Heh, where did you come up with that Marco? No, we live fairly close to each other, were discussing Moby scale one day while plowing through boxes of games at my storage locker (where I kept boxes of games). Maybe you were thinking of a school locker? Yup, that's what I thought. Marco -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Freddie Bingham wrote: Again .. I still disagree for the simple fact that a game can re-shrinkwrapped and one can obtain the same quality of wrap that most games That is not true at all -- I can identify with greater than 99% accuracy whether or not something has been re-wrapped. And although Chris has never worked in a software store, I'll bet he can easily hit 95%-99% as well. were shipped in (the softer, more pliable wrap). Take a hole punch to it .. A LOT more re-wrapping went on at Babbage's though as we had pretty low How do you hole-punch something that has already been wrapped? Having worked at Babbage's, you know how the process works -- on heating, the wrap contracts, so you couldn't punch it beforehand (it would expand and distort). And if you know of a way to hole-punch wrap after it has been wrapped, please explain it to me :-) Finally, the feel of store rewraps is much crisper and more brittle than factory, so it's really almost impossible to do this properly. I think I need to work on that illustrated FAQ idea... How do you guys use this scale anyway? I've had games quoted to me a few times based on this, and in my experience, the grades are always over-blown unless it is something from Chris' store. Do not blame the grading scale for that, blame dishonest people! Personally, I don't grade games as my perspective will be different than yours so I just send pictures. I would rather have both a picture and a grade, because unless you're going to take well-lit pictures with a 3MP or higher camera from multiple angles, it isn't going to represent the item properly. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is anyone interested in doing something like this? If we each took a certain grade, we could accomplish a lot: Yes, this was the main reason I registered www.softwarecollecting.org -- to create an illustrated FAQ of all this stuff, and also a FAQ derived from the mailing list over the past three years -- you know, resources for people who want to get into software collecting. I'm hella busy right now, but it's definitely on my todo list. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Dan Chisarick wrote: Ok, generally I keep out of the grading discussions because I toss shrinkwrap on games like I would on sandwiches (in contrast to the death-threat below). Question: How do you handle funk? Basement funk (game stored in a damp cellar), smoker's house, cat used the space 10 away as a litterbox, etc. All of these categorize a few boxes of games I own (and all from the same seller). They're in fine condition, but they'll curl your nose. You can't possibly say that something could be visually immaculate but conjure images of the corner bar could be graded near mint, etc. They didn't come from the factory this way... That's a new one. How about NM (funk: ED) ;-) -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Man am I glad work was busy today and I missed this one. Christ. B-) Since this thread's died down as of about 6:00 today I won't help jump-start it again, except to say I'm glad to hear people find my ratings of my sale items accurate and useful. I've always tried to err toward F(S) rather than MS, just because it's better to have a buyer pleasantly surprised by the condition than disappointed with it. As for reshrinks... well, that's a whole other subject we've also brought up lots before. B-) - Original Message - From: Freddie Bingham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 4:46 PM Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch Again .. I still disagree for the simple fact that a game can re-shrinkwrapped and one can obtain the same quality of wrap that most games were shipped in (the softer, more pliable wrap). Take a hole punch to it and you will fool most people. Add to that all of the games that are floating about that were re-shrinwrapped after being returned to a software store. I, as well, know about this having worked at Babbage's and Egghead. A LOT more re-wrapping went on at Babbage's though as we had pretty low standards when it came to quality, you had to have written on the box to get it defected (generalization). How do you guys use this scale anyway? I've had games quoted to me a few times based on this, and in my experience, the grades are always over-blown unless it is something from Chris' store. A shrinkwrapped game that has bowing on the side or a crease on the flap is not MS (just something I've been told and sold before). There is a valley between F(S) and MS, yet many people have no problem liberally throwing MS about when it does not apply. Personally, I don't grade games as my perspective will be different than yours so I just send pictures. Freddie Lucasarts Museum - http://lucasarts.vintagegaming.org -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch and I Don't Like This threads
Stuart Feldhamer schrieb: Hmmm... If I had to summarize: Most people are unhappy that the prices are going ridiculously high. There is a big argument about whether it should be MS or M(S). Nobody sees the connection between these two threads? Yeah, we don't have real problems ;-) Marco -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Yup, remember Jim, when we were discussing the Moby scale (long time ago, at my storage locker I believe) You guys went to school/college together? Marco -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Alexander Zöller schrieb: I know what you're saying. You crack the wrap, the game is still stone mint, but it will only grade NM. There's a good reason to this however. Only with the factory wrap can a game be graded mint, because once opened, it's no longer as it comes from the factory. So I'm with Jim on this one. Yup. Marco -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch and I Don't Like This threads
Stuart Feldhamer wrote: Hmmm... If I had to summarize: Most people are unhappy that the prices are going ridiculously high. There is a big argument about whether it should be MS or M(S). Nobody sees the connection between these two threads? I don't, actually...? -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
RE: [SWCollect] Ouch and I Don't Like This threads
At the most superficial level, both of these are signs that the hobby is on its way to becoming more commercialized. Stuart -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 12:09 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch and I Don't Like This threads Stuart Feldhamer wrote: Hmmm... If I had to summarize: Most people are unhappy that the prices are going ridiculously high. There is a big argument about whether it should be MS or M(S). Nobody sees the connection between these two threads? I don't, actually...? -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.oldskool.org/ Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Ok, generally I keep out of the grading discussions because I toss shrinkwrap on games like I would on sandwiches (in contrast to the death-threat below). Question: How do you handle funk? Basement funk (game stored in a damp cellar), smoker's house, cat used the space 10 away as a litterbox, etc. All of these categorize a few boxes of games I own (and all from the same seller). They're in fine condition, but they'll curl your nose. You can't possibly say that something could be visually immaculate but conjure images of the corner bar could be graded near mint, etc. They didn't come from the factory this way... On May 10, 2004, at 11:13 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I enjoyed reading this thread, considering that MS is one of my passions (ripping the shrinkwrap from an old game is much akin to breaking the binding on my new magazine--I've threatened to KILL people for this!) ;) I've never had the time to do it, but I always wanted to do 'The ILLUSTRATED Moby Scale'--3 to 5 detailed pictures of example games showing every grade (and modifier). It would clear up a lot of confusion, and also give everyone insight and input into opinions about grading. We could also cover some of the lesser-talked about modifiers-- Fading Crushed corners blemishes (what's an 'acceptable' blemish, anyway?!) Box warping Cover 'ripple' Spotting reshrink Is anyone interested in doing something like this? If we each took a certain grade, we could accomplish a lot: *We could show off some of our finer pieces *We could have a laugh at some of the things we still keep (you KNOW you each have that piece of garbage that is in horrible shape, has no monetary value, and refuse to throw away! *It would be a valuable addition to the Moby Game page (providing we all donate the pictures to the website) *It would sure help to 'nail down' what we all agree on *It would start all NEW discussions on the topic *and may make this dry text more...stimulating. Just a thoughtI'll even dust off my camera too, if anyone else wants to pitch in... Joe G From: Jim Leonard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2004/05/10 Mon PM 05:28:20 EDT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Freddie Bingham wrote: I still maintain the guide is confusing since you have one situation where a grade and modifier can not be used together. Taken at face value, yes, I can see how this might be confusing. However, if someone understands the motivation behind software collecting and the terms used, then it becomes clear why Mint always needs Sealed. Maybe there is confusion over why the term Mint was chosen? Because mint condition implies, in numismatics anyway, freshly minted or in the same condition as it was created in the mint. The pinnacle of condition in most grading scales implies Mint condition, and since a wrapped package is the only condition that can be considered factory perfect, the Sealed part was added quite intentionally. It seems to me that the biggest problem is that the scale deviates from other, much more established grading scales in use in other fields of collecting. I can not find any scales that define a near mint rating as actually being mint and this is the biggest problem I have with this list. I don't see how having shrink-wrap, means that we need a scale that deviates from other scales. It is precisely *because* our hobby has different indications of quality that the MobyScale was created. Sealed items are worth more than unsealed items, so the fact that it is sealed is a gradiation of quality, and should be noted. When researching hobbies and grading scales in creating the MobyScale, I couldn't find any particular one that was a good match; most of them didn't apply to a hobby where factory authenticity can be verified (wrapped, sealed, etc.), and the ones that did mention it didn't regard it highly. I would be interested to learn of other hobbies that value shrinkwrapped/sealed items to be of higher quality, and also what grading systems they use. I know it won't be changed but I just want to it to be known that there are others who disagree with it. Duly noted, and I (and others) value your input. The goal of the Scale was to avoid confusion; if you use your own scale, just make sure it can be referenced -- on a web page, in a listing, etc. -- so that further confusion can be avoided. It's no secret that the primary motivation of myself (and others who contributed to it) was purchsing things online labeled as Mint when it was received opened, or seeing items described as Very Fine ++ and Good Near Fine and wondering what the hell that meant :-) -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch and I Don't Like This threads
Stuart Feldhamer wrote: At the most superficial level, both of these are signs that the hobby is on its way to becoming more commercialized. A bit of a stretch, but I see your point. Maybe commercialization is a necessary step toward getting our hobby more recognized? More recognition means more participants, and more participants means more items that get shaken loose... -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Aaargh... yes, that always makes me whince. There was an eBay auction way back in 2001 for a shrinked Kilrathi Saga, M(S). Apparently the seller was contacted by a guy urging him to check if the wrap was authentic and the game truly unopened. Not knowing what to look for, this poor chap cracked the wrap and happily added a note to his listing that, yes, everything inside was in mint condition. Alexander -Original Message- From: BL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SWCollect] Ouch http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=4130364298 from the auction: Note: Brand new with all the original manuals/disks/box, etc. Only came out of the shrink wrap to be photographed. According to the box it works on any Apple II or III. Doh! Not the sharpest tool in the shed... Brad - Original Message - From: Vincent Joguin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [SWCollect] YEAH-HA-HA! At 16:38 09/05/2004 -0500, you wrote: Heh, just realized, God I hope it's in English. B-) I'm almost certain it's a French version. Games are now always translated here, at least PC games, since about 1996. One of the first games for which I was forced to buy the translated version was King's Quest 7. I nearly haven't bought any PC game from France ever since (most recent is a L'Amerzone/Syberia pack). For some reason, console games are not always translated (for example Shenmue) or are multi-language. Vincent Joguin. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
In a message dated 05/10/2004 8:21:32 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=4130364298 from the auction: " Note: Brand new with all the original manuals/disks/box, etc. Only came out of the shrink wrap to be photographed. According to the box it works on any Apple II or III. " Doh! Not the sharpest tool in the shed... Eh heh, well you have to remember not everyone (in fact not most people) care about that, only "nuts" like us. Wiz 1 is desirable shrinked but not overly rare (and interesting to see which manual it has, there were a few releases, can't tell from outside of box). If you need a shrinked Wiz I've got Wiz 2 shrinked, not only that a rare "demo" copy :) It is available for trade too, not just cash. I collect Wiz but not shrinked unless it just happens to be so. And hey, if you do collect shrinked and have one already (Wiz 1) it just makes yours "rarer" ;) Tom
RE: [SWCollect] Ouch
Sorry to be anal, but that's one of my specialties :-) -- Mint sealed is MS not M(S). Hugh -Original Message- From: Alexander Zöller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 6:34 AM To: BL; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Aaargh... yes, that always makes me whince. There was an eBay auction way back in 2001 for a shrinked Kilrathi Saga, M(S). Apparently the seller was contacted by a guy urging him to check if the wrap was authentic and the game truly unopened. Not knowing what to look for, this poor chap cracked the wrap and happily added a note to his listing that, yes, everything inside was in mint condition. Alexander -Original Message- From: BL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SWCollect] Ouch http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=4130364298 from the auction: Note: Brand new with all the original manuals/disks/box, etc. Only came out of the shrink wrap to be photographed. According to the box it works on any Apple II or III. Doh! Not the sharpest tool in the shed... Brad - Original Message - From: Vincent Joguin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [SWCollect] YEAH-HA-HA! At 16:38 09/05/2004 -0500, you wrote: Heh, just realized, God I hope it's in English. B-) I'm almost certain it's a French version. Games are now always translated here, at least PC games, since about 1996. One of the first games for which I was forced to buy the translated version was King's Quest 7. I nearly haven't bought any PC game from France ever since (most recent is a L'Amerzone/Syberia pack). For some reason, console games are not always translated (for example Shenmue) or are multi-language. Vincent Joguin. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
RE: [SWCollect] Ouch
I respectfully disagree. ;) Sealed is a flag, much like IM, MMC and so on. And surely you don't write FMMC for a Fine copy with MMC? Or perhaps NMSTC? That'd make it a lot more cryptic than necessary, imho. - Peo -Original Message- From: Hugh Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: den 10 maj 2004 17:27 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch Sorry to be anal, but that's one of my specialties :-) -- Mint sealed is MS not M(S). Hugh -Original Message- From: Alexander Zöller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 6:34 AM To: BL; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Aaargh... yes, that always makes me whince. There was an eBay auction way back in 2001 for a shrinked Kilrathi Saga, M(S). Apparently the seller was contacted by a guy urging him to check if the wrap was authentic and the game truly unopened. Not knowing what to look for, this poor chap cracked the wrap and happily added a note to his listing that, yes, everything inside was in mint condition. Alexander -Original Message- From: BL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SWCollect] Ouch http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=4130364298 from the auction: Note: Brand new with all the original manuals/disks/box, etc. Only came out of the shrink wrap to be photographed. According to the box it works on any Apple II or III. Doh! Not the sharpest tool in the shed... Brad - Original Message - From: Vincent Joguin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [SWCollect] YEAH-HA-HA! At 16:38 09/05/2004 -0500, you wrote: Heh, just realized, God I hope it's in English. B-) I'm almost certain it's a French version. Games are now always translated here, at least PC games, since about 1996. One of the first games for which I was forced to buy the translated version was King's Quest 7. I nearly haven't bought any PC game from France ever since (most recent is a L'Amerzone/Syberia pack). For some reason, console games are not always translated (for example Shenmue) or are multi-language. Vincent Joguin. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Would MS indicate not only the box and contents, but also the wrap is in flawless condition? For me M(S) means the box is perfect and shrinked, while it does leave some variability for the condition of the wrap, which even if free of tears may be in lesser shape at times (store stickers, grime that has settled into the wrap, age discoloration, etc.). Alexander -Original Message- From: Hugh Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch Sorry to be anal, but that's one of my specialties :-) -- Mint sealed is MS not M(S). Hugh -Original Message- From: Alexander Zöller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 6:34 AM To: BL; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Aaargh... yes, that always makes me whince. There was an eBay auction way back in 2001 for a shrinked Kilrathi Saga, M(S). Apparently the seller was contacted by a guy urging him to check if the wrap was authentic and the game truly unopened. Not knowing what to look for, this poor chap cracked the wrap and happily added a note to his listing that, yes, everything inside was in mint condition. Alexander -Original Message- From: BL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SWCollect] Ouch http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=4130364298 from the auction: Note: Brand new with all the original manuals/disks/box, etc. Only came out of the shrink wrap to be photographed. According to the box it works on any Apple II or III. Doh! Not the sharpest tool in the shed... Brad - Original Message - From: Vincent Joguin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [SWCollect] YEAH-HA-HA! At 16:38 09/05/2004 -0500, you wrote: Heh, just realized, God I hope it's in English. B-) I'm almost certain it's a French version. Games are now always translated here, at least PC games, since about 1996. One of the first games for which I was forced to buy the translated version was King's Quest 7. I nearly haven't bought any PC game from France ever since (most recent is a L'Amerzone/Syberia pack). For some reason, console games are not always translated (for example Shenmue) or are multi-language. Vincent Joguin. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
RE: [SWCollect] Ouch
Well, you can certainly disagree with the scale, but you can't disagree that MS is the way it is currently published in the scale: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/conditions.htm The purpose of the scale is so we could all start using common terminology as our hobby matures. If you don't like the scale, make suggestions (Jim is the caretaker of the official scale). Otherwise, that's what everyone else is using. Basically, MS means factory fresh. You are correct that there is also a (S) flag, which is used for games that are sealed, but have some defect that keeps it from being MS. For example, you could put NM (S) or F (S). Hugh -Original Message- From: Per-Olof Karlsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch I respectfully disagree. ;) Sealed is a flag, much like IM, MMC and so on. And surely you don't write FMMC for a Fine copy with MMC? Or perhaps NMSTC? That'd make it a lot more cryptic than necessary, imho. - Peo -Original Message- From: Hugh Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: den 10 maj 2004 17:27 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch Sorry to be anal, but that's one of my specialties :-) -- Mint sealed is MS not M(S). Hugh -Original Message- From: Alexander Zöller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 6:34 AM To: BL; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Aaargh... yes, that always makes me whince. There was an eBay auction way back in 2001 for a shrinked Kilrathi Saga, M(S). Apparently the seller was contacted by a guy urging him to check if the wrap was authentic and the game truly unopened. Not knowing what to look for, this poor chap cracked the wrap and happily added a note to his listing that, yes, everything inside was in mint condition. Alexander -Original Message- From: BL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SWCollect] Ouch http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=4130364298 from the auction: Note: Brand new with all the original manuals/disks/box, etc. Only came out of the shrink wrap to be photographed. According to the box it works on any Apple II or III. Doh! Not the sharpest tool in the shed... Brad - Original Message - From: Vincent Joguin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [SWCollect] YEAH-HA-HA! At 16:38 09/05/2004 -0500, you wrote: Heh, just realized, God I hope it's in English. B-) I'm almost certain it's a French version. Games are now always translated here, at least PC games, since about 1996. One of the first games for which I was forced to buy the translated version was King's Quest 7. I nearly haven't bought any PC game from France ever since (most recent is a L'Amerzone/Syberia pack). For some reason, console games are not always translated (for example Shenmue) or are multi-language. Vincent Joguin. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http
RE: [SWCollect] Ouch
For me, the scale is rather useless at any rate. We buy a lot of stuff on eBay and the scale has no use there, we are lucky to be able to get a half way decent condition from the seller without offending them in some way by asking detailed questions. When trading amongst ourselves I find people almost always tend to overrate what they have so having a scale is useless if it is interpreted differently. In the end, pictures are the only scale that matters to me. Lucasarts Museum - http://lucasarts.vintagegaming.org -Original Message- From: Alexander Zöller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 9:14 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Would MS indicate not only the box and contents, but also the wrap is in flawless condition? For me M(S) means the box is perfect and shrinked, while it does leave some variability for the condition of the wrap, which even if free of tears may be in lesser shape at times (store stickers, grime that has settled into the wrap, age discoloration, etc.). Alexander -Original Message- From: Hugh Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch Sorry to be anal, but that's one of my specialties :-) -- Mint sealed is MS not M(S). Hugh -Original Message- From: Alexander Zöller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 6:34 AM To: BL; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Aaargh... yes, that always makes me whince. There was an eBay auction way back in 2001 for a shrinked Kilrathi Saga, M(S). Apparently the seller was contacted by a guy urging him to check if the wrap was authentic and the game truly unopened. Not knowing what to look for, this poor chap cracked the wrap and happily added a note to his listing that, yes, everything inside was in mint condition. Alexander -Original Message- From: BL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SWCollect] Ouch http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=4130364298 from the auction: Note: Brand new with all the original manuals/disks/box, etc. Only came out of the shrink wrap to be photographed. According to the box it works on any Apple II or III. Doh! Not the sharpest tool in the shed... Brad - Original Message - From: Vincent Joguin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [SWCollect] YEAH-HA-HA! At 16:38 09/05/2004 -0500, you wrote: Heh, just realized, God I hope it's in English. B-) I'm almost certain it's a French version. Games are now always translated here, at least PC games, since about 1996. One of the first games for which I was forced to buy the translated version was King's Quest 7. I nearly haven't bought any PC game from France ever since (most recent is a L'Amerzone/Syberia pack). For some reason, console games are not always translated (for example Shenmue) or are multi-language. Vincent Joguin. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Oh no, not the M/S conversation again.. hehe, I've learned to just drop this one - yes, there's an anomoly in the scale, and no it won't be corrected. :) Brad - Original Message - From: Hugh Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 12:49 PM Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch Well, you can certainly disagree with the scale, but you can't disagree that MS is the way it is currently published in the scale: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/conditions.htm The purpose of the scale is so we could all start using common terminology as our hobby matures. If you don't like the scale, make suggestions (Jim is the caretaker of the official scale). Otherwise, that's what everyone else is using. Basically, MS means factory fresh. You are correct that there is also a (S) flag, which is used for games that are sealed, but have some defect that keeps it from being MS. For example, you could put NM (S) or F (S). Hugh -Original Message- From: Per-Olof Karlsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch I respectfully disagree. ;) Sealed is a flag, much like IM, MMC and so on. And surely you don't write FMMC for a Fine copy with MMC? Or perhaps NMSTC? That'd make it a lot more cryptic than necessary, imho. - Peo -Original Message- From: Hugh Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: den 10 maj 2004 17:27 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch Sorry to be anal, but that's one of my specialties :-) -- Mint sealed is MS not M(S). Hugh -Original Message- From: Alexander Zöller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 6:34 AM To: BL; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Aaargh... yes, that always makes me whince. There was an eBay auction way back in 2001 for a shrinked Kilrathi Saga, M(S). Apparently the seller was contacted by a guy urging him to check if the wrap was authentic and the game truly unopened. Not knowing what to look for, this poor chap cracked the wrap and happily added a note to his listing that, yes, everything inside was in mint condition. Alexander -Original Message- From: BL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SWCollect] Ouch http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=4130364298 from the auction: Note: Brand new with all the original manuals/disks/box, etc. Only came out of the shrink wrap to be photographed. According to the box it works on any Apple II or III. Doh! Not the sharpest tool in the shed... Brad - Original Message - From: Vincent Joguin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [SWCollect] YEAH-HA-HA! At 16:38 09/05/2004 -0500, you wrote: Heh, just realized, God I hope it's in English. B-) I'm almost certain it's a French version. Games are now always translated here, at least PC games, since about 1996. One of the first games for which I was forced to buy the translated version was King's Quest 7. I nearly haven't bought any PC game from France ever since (most recent is a L'Amerzone/Syberia pack). For some reason, console games are not always translated (for example Shenmue) or are multi-language. Vincent Joguin. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Basically, MS means factory fresh. Right. So would you agree that both box and wrap need to be immaculate to score a MS rating? IMO the MobyScale doesn't imply this though: No noticable defects *and* sealed in original factory or store shrinkwrap or sticker. Sounds to me as if the box needs to be perfect, while the wrap needs to be the factory type, regardless of condition. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Now assuming there's something that will keep a game from rating MS, I would be obliged to use NM (S) or F (S) just like you say. However this wouldn't reflect the reason for the lower grade -- could be due to the box being slightly dented, or because there are imperfections to the wrap itself. M (S) for a sealed, perfect game in a dirty, discolored wrap goes against the MobyScale scale and therefore should not be used. I could use VG (S) or something, though personally I tend to use this modifier in case I have a battered box in the original wrap. Strictly IMHO, the grades are associated with the box, not the wrap. We have a modifier for a wrap that is torn (T), but none for the wrap's general condition. Maybe that is something which could be added? E.g.: M (S,G) for a perfect box in the original factory wrap, which is only in good condition, but has no tears. This may appear overly accurate to some of you, but it may become important by the time factory shrinkwrap will start to deteriorate because of its age -- mostly turning a yellow color and becoming brittle, that is. And Jim, once opened, it can no longer be mint. No question about that. Alexander -Original Message- From: Hugh Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 6:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch Well, you can certainly disagree with the scale, but you can't disagree that MS is the way it is currently published in the scale: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/conditions.htm The purpose of the scale is so we could all start using common terminology as our hobby matures. If you don't like the scale, make suggestions (Jim is the caretaker of the official scale). Otherwise, that's what everyone else is using. Basically, MS means factory fresh. You are correct that there is also a (S) flag, which is used for games that are sealed, but have some defect that keeps it from being MS. For example, you could put NM (S) or F (S). Hugh -Original Message- From: Per-Olof Karlsson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch I respectfully disagree. ;) Sealed is a flag, much like IM, MMC and so on. And surely you don't write FMMC for a Fine copy with MMC? Or perhaps NMSTC? That'd make it a lot more cryptic than necessary, imho. - Peo -Original Message- From: Hugh Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: den 10 maj 2004 17:27 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch Sorry to be anal, but that's one of my specialties :-) -- Mint sealed is MS not M(S). Hugh -Original Message- From: Alexander Zöller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 6:34 AM To: BL; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Aaargh... yes, that always makes me whince. There was an eBay auction way back in 2001 for a shrinked Kilrathi Saga, M(S). Apparently the seller was contacted by a guy urging him to check if the wrap was authentic and the game truly unopened. Not knowing what to look for, this poor chap cracked the wrap and happily added a note to his listing that, yes, everything inside was in mint condition. Alexander -Original Message- From: BL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [SWCollect] Ouch http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemitem=4130364298 from the auction: Note: Brand new with all the original manuals/disks/box, etc. Only came out of the shrink wrap to be photographed. According to the box it works on any Apple II or III. Doh! Not the sharpest tool in the shed... Brad - Original Message - From: Vincent Joguin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 4:12 AM Subject: Re: [SWCollect] YEAH-HA-HA! At 16:38 09/05/2004 -0500, you wrote: Heh, just realized, God I hope it's in English. B-) I'm almost certain it's a French version. Games are now always translated here, at least PC games, since about 1996. One of the first games for which I was forced to buy the translated version was King's Quest 7. I nearly haven't bought any PC game from France ever since (most recent is a L'Amerzone/Syberia pack). For some reason, console games are not always translated (for example Shenmue) or are multi-language. Vincent Joguin. -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
BL wrote: Oh no, not the M/S conversation again.. hehe, I've learned to just drop this one - yes, there's an anomoly in the scale, and no it won't be corrected. :) Mint means as it comes from the factory. I don't think this fact is in dispute. Since coming from the factory also means factory shrinkwrapped, how can something that is open be considered Mint? Debate on this issue is welcome, because I want to hear other people's opinion. It won't change the Scale, though, since we talked about that for months to get it right (and in fact was the primary purpose of this mailing list). You can use whatever scale you like, but make sure you clarify it as your own and publish it somewhere where we can reference it. Most people here use the MobyScale system for grading the condition of software (because we all created and agreed on it), so if you use your own you need to clarify that. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Alexander Zöller wrote: Right. So would you agree that both box and wrap need to be immaculate to score a MS rating? IMO the MobyScale doesn't imply this though: No noticable defects *and* sealed in original factory or store shrinkwrap or sticker. You are correct. Not immaculate, just still wrapped. Sounds to me as if the box needs to be perfect, while the wrap needs to be the factory type, regardless of condition. Please correct me if I'm wrong. You are not wrong. Wrap, of any binding nature, implies that the contents of the box are complete and intact. If you have wrap but it is not binding (ie falling off and you can open the box around it) then it can't be considered MS because the contents may be incomplete. M (S) for a sealed, perfect game in a dirty, discolored wrap goes against the MobyScale scale and therefore should not be used. I could use VG (S) Wrong; see above explanation. Strictly IMHO, the grades are associated with the box, not the wrap. They are. We have a modifier for a wrap that is torn (T), but none for the wrap's general condition. Maybe that is something which could be added? I am open to debate on this issue. Personally I don't see the need to grade the wrap, but if anyone has any opinions, I'm open to hearing them. E.g.: M (S,G) for a perfect box in the original factory wrap, which is only in good condition, but has no tears. M must be S or else you can't use M. So hopefully you meant something like VG (S,G). This may appear overly accurate to some of you, but it may become important by the time factory shrinkwrap will start to deteriorate because of its age -- mostly turning a yellow color and becoming brittle, that is. Old/yellow/brittle wrap is not something I would consider meaningful to collecting, because unless you artifically age the process (store your games in direct sunlight, etc.) every single shrinked game, regardless of condition of the box, will have the same wrap. All 30-yr-old games will have brittle wrap, all 5-yr-old games will have common perfect wrap, etc. But I am only one person, of course; any other opinions out there? And Jim, once opened, it can no longer be mint. No question about that. Just making sure :-) -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Jim, we've been over this a few times before. Say I have 2 wrapped boxes, and rip the wrap off one, then rip the wrap off the other a year later - the first one's box is still in Near Mint, while you are telling me that the one I just ripped the wrap off is should be considered the same, since Mint is only possible with S? My old arguement was that M should be a grade alone, while S a modifier; applyable to any grade. Brad - Original Message - From: Jim Leonard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch BL wrote: Oh no, not the M/S conversation again.. hehe, I've learned to just drop this one - yes, there's an anomoly in the scale, and no it won't be corrected. :) Mint means as it comes from the factory. I don't think this fact is in dispute. Since coming from the factory also means factory shrinkwrapped, how can something that is open be considered Mint? Debate on this issue is welcome, because I want to hear other people's opinion. It won't change the Scale, though, since we talked about that for months to get it right (and in fact was the primary purpose of this mailing list). You can use whatever scale you like, but make sure you clarify it as your own and publish it somewhere where we can reference it. Most people here use the MobyScale system for grading the condition of software (because we all created and agreed on it), so if you use your own you need to clarify that. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Great, we seem to be in agreement on most issues ;) You are not wrong. Wrap, of any binding nature, implies that the contents of the box are complete and intact. If you have wrap but it is not binding (ie falling off and you can open the box around it) then it can't be considered MS because the contents may be incomplete. Exactly. Disregarding the existence of air holes here for a moment, the shrinked box would have to swim on the water to grade MS (don't try this at home, kids!) M (S) for a sealed, perfect game in a dirty, discolored wrap goes against the MobyScale scale and therefore should not be used. I could use VG (S) Wrong; see above explanation. Okay, some confusion here I think. M (S) is wrong because the correct term would be MS. I presume you are saying VG (S) is also wrong because as per the scale, the game would grade MS regardless of how dirty the wrap is, as long as it's binding? This is where I have some concerns. Worst case: an unopened game in a dirty, smeared wrap could be passed off as MS and sold as such. It was in the factory wrap after all. I am open to debate on this issue. Personally I don't see the need to grade the wrap, but if anyone has any opinions, I'm open to hearing them. Yes, I'm aware this is nitpicking what I do ;) But I try to accurately grade my games and I don't think it's justified to grade a shrinked game MS even when the wrap looks and is dirty. And I'm also hesitant to use G (S) instead in such a case as the box and contents are, after all, mint. M must be S or else you can't use M. So hopefully you meant something like VG (S,G). Yes, silly mistake there. Try that again: MS (wrap: G). Something like that! Old/yellow/brittle wrap is not something I would consider meaningful to collecting, because unless you artifically age the process (store your games in direct sunlight, etc.) every single shrinked game, regardless of condition of the box, will have the same wrap. All 30-yr-old games will have brittle wrap, all 5-yr-old games will have common perfect wrap, etc. But I am only one person, of course; any other opinions out there? If you're right then this additional differentiation is indeed superfluous. But I think the way a shrinked game is stored will have a noticable effect on how its wrap will age. Stored in the dark or always displayed in bright sunlight, etc. 20 years down the road we will have games with the wrap nearly falling apart (still 'binding' though :-)) and others which even wrap-wise still look as if they came out of the factory yesterday. Alexander -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
To me, "mint" means simply no blemishes or defects in the packaging or media. In fact, I'd argue that a shrinked game can't be verified as "mint" because you can't inspect the contents without breaking the shrinkwrap, and hence can't know whether (for example) the slider on one of the disk slidershas lost its spring or the CD case has a broken hinge. And this does occasionally happen even with factory-fresh titles. For my part, I'd prefer that sellers avoid such labels and instead use detailed, specific descriptions of games and their contents. That way, there is no possibility for confusion. PeterJim Leonard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BL wrote: Oh no, not the M/S conversation again.. hehe, I've learned to just drop this one - yes, there's an anomoly in the scale, and no it won't be corrected. :)Mint means "as it comes from the factory". I don't think this fact is in dispute. Since coming from the factory also means factory shrinkwrapped, how can something that is open be considered Mint?Debate on this issue is welcome, because I want to hear other people's opinion. It won't change the Scale, though, since we talked about that for months to get it right (and in fact was the primary purpose of this mailing list).You can use whatever scale you like, but make sure you clarify it as your own and publish it somewhere where we can reference it. Most people here use the MobyScale system for grading the condition of software (because we all! created and agreed on it), so if you use your own you need to clarify that.-- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/--This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed tothe swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
BL wrote: Jim, we've been over this a few times before. Say I have 2 wrapped boxes, and rip the wrap off one, then rip the wrap off the other a year later - the first one's box is still in Near Mint, while you are telling me that the one I just ripped the wrap off is should be considered the same, since Mint is only possible with S? Yes, that is exactly what I (and most other people on this list) are saying. Mint = as it arrives out of the factory; without the wrap, it is no longer as it arrives out of the factory. As I wrote earlier, you can use whatever method of grading you like -- everyone is a free person :) and can do whatever they want to. But for the purpose of being consistant and avoiding confusion like this, many (if not most) of us here on the list use the MobyScale, because we invented it and came to a consensus. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
I know what you're saying. You crack the wrap, the game is still stone mint, but it will only grade NM. There's a good reason to this however. Only with the factory wrap can a game be graded mint, because once opened, it's no longer as it comes from the factory. So I'm with Jim on this one. Alexander -Original Message- From: BL [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 7:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Jim, we've been over this a few times before. Say I have 2 wrapped boxes, and rip the wrap off one, then rip the wrap off the other a year later - the first one's box is still in Near Mint, while you are telling me that the one I just ripped the wrap off is should be considered the same, since Mint is only possible with S? My old arguement was that M should be a grade alone, while S a modifier; applyable to any grade. Brad - Original Message - From: Jim Leonard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 1:18 PM Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch BL wrote: Oh no, not the M/S conversation again.. hehe, I've learned to just drop this one - yes, there's an anomoly in the scale, and no it won't be corrected. :) Mint means as it comes from the factory. I don't think this fact is in dispute. Since coming from the factory also means factory shrinkwrapped, how can something that is open be considered Mint? Debate on this issue is welcome, because I want to hear other people's opinion. It won't change the Scale, though, since we talked about that for months to get it right (and in fact was the primary purpose of this mailing list). You can use whatever scale you like, but make sure you clarify it as your own and publish it somewhere where we can reference it. Most people here use the MobyScale system for grading the condition of software (because we all created and agreed on it), so if you use your own you need to clarify that. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Like I said; I gave up on this - there's an anomoly with the scale, and it's not going to change ;) Brad - Original Message - From: Jim Leonard [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 2:01 PM Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch BL wrote: Jim, we've been over this a few times before. Say I have 2 wrapped boxes, and rip the wrap off one, then rip the wrap off the other a year later - the first one's box is still in Near Mint, while you are telling me that the one I just ripped the wrap off is should be considered the same, since Mint is only possible with S? Yes, that is exactly what I (and most other people on this list) are saying. Mint = as it arrives out of the factory; without the wrap, it is no longer as it arrives out of the factory. As I wrote earlier, you can use whatever method of grading you like -- everyone is a free person :) and can do whatever they want to. But for the purpose of being consistant and avoiding confusion like this, many (if not most) of us here on the list use the MobyScale, because we invented it and came to a consensus. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Alexander Zöller wrote: I presume you are saying VG (S) is also wrong because as per the scale, the game would grade MS regardless of how dirty the wrap is, No, that is not what I am saying. VG (S) means a box that has a few defects (usually crushing, a dent, etc.) but still has the shrinkwrap. I think the confusion comes from S being both part of the abbreviation for Mint and being a modifier. The Sealed part was added because Mint software is always sealed, so it was made part of Mint to avoid confusion for people new to the hobby. I guess in retrospect, having Mint Sealed can confuse some people, but it was *more* confusing to have someone sell you something described as mint and then getting an open box. as long as it's binding? This is where I have some concerns. Worst case: an unopened game in a dirty, smeared wrap could be passed off as MS and sold as such. It was in the factory wrap after all. Not if they were using the MobyScale properly it couldn't. For example, I own a few ED(S) games -- they have been totally crushed, but still have binding wrap on them. Mind you, these games probably won't stay in my collection for long ;-) but they do exist. Yes, I'm aware this is nitpicking what I do ;) But I try to accurately grade my games and I don't think it's justified to grade a shrinked game MS even when the wrap looks and is dirty. And I'm also hesitant to use G (S) instead in such a case as the box and contents are, after all, mint. Well, G (S) to describe the WRAP would be incorrect usage of the Scale. As for an MS game with non-perfect wrap, you can always use actual words to clarify in those cases, such as Wrap is slightly yellowed and brittle due to age and/or poor quality of the wrap used at the factory -- surely you don't have that many... And don't worry about nitpicking -- hell, that was the reason for the MobyScale in the first place! :-D All collectors are inherently nitpicky, I think, to many degrees. Yes, silly mistake there. Try that again: MS (wrap: G). Something like that! Good idea! I've never seen that usage before, but (wrap: G) makes perfect sense and is valid. If you agree, I can add it to the FAQ section of the MobyScale -- let me know. But I think the way a shrinked game is stored will have a noticable effect on how its wrap will age. Stored in the dark or always displayed in bright sunlight, etc. 20 years down the road we will have games with the wrap nearly falling apart (still 'binding' though :-)) and others which even wrap-wise still look as if they came out of the factory yesterday. Indeed, which will most likely lead to a few smacks-upside-the-head :-) I can picture it now: Dufus! You proudly displayed your complete Mt. Drash in your apartment window for a week for bragging rights? Of course this would probably yellow the BOX and not the wrap ;) -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Peter Olafson wrote: To me, mint means simply no blemishes or defects in the packaging or media. That has been a traditional definition in many hobbies, yes. However, most examples of that usage in other hobbies were for hobbies for which there was no shrinkwrap. In numismatics (coin collecting) for example, most collectable coins do not come shrinkwrapped because they were minted before shrinkwrap existed. In fact, I'd argue that a shrinked game can't be verified as mint because you can't inspect the contents without breaking the shrinkwrap, and hence can't know whether (for example) the slider on one of the disk sliders has lost its spring or the CD case has a broken hinge. And this does occasionally happen even with factory-fresh titles. This is true; in fact, I own a 7th Guest that did NOT have the videotape in it even though it was advertised on the box. (And I bought and opened it specifically for the tape.) But this is rare, and also a risk in any sealed collectable. Some people on this list (myself included) have no problem cracking the wrap to play the game, or just see what's inside. This obviously changes a game from MS to Near Mint. There is *nothing wrong* with a Near Mint item; it is simply a fraction lower on the Scale than MS. In fact, it should be pointed out that the MobyScale grades are NOT LINEAR (I'm not shouting, just emphasising). I say again, they are NOT equally seperated from each other. From the Scale's FAQ: We deliberately created granular grades for the best conditions and coarse grades (only two) for poor conditions. This was done to best serve the needs of collectors without overwhelming them. For my part, I'd prefer that sellers avoid such labels and instead use detailed, specific descriptions of games and their contents. That way, there is no possibility for confusion. This is very true. For those who use the MobyScale, they want a consistent scale in shorthand because they deal in large volumes of software in both their personal collections and/or business. But there is nothing that says they have to use the MobyScale, or any scale for that matter, as long as everything is properly described. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Jim Leonard wrote: No, that is not what I am saying. VG (S) means a box that has a few defects (usually crushing, a dent, etc.) but still has the shrinkwrap. [and] Well, G (S) to describe the WRAP would be incorrect usage of the Scale. Acknowledged. No downgrading of a game when only the factory wrap exhibits signs of age, whereas the box is perfect. I guess in retrospect, having Mint Sealed can confuse some people, but it was *more* confusing to have someone sell you something described as mint and then getting an open box. Aye. MS is quite a bit like NRFB, it's our way of describing that the item is still in factory condition. -- surely you don't have that many... True. These are rare cases. When the wrap is worn the box will most likely have taken a hit as well, so there's no point in describing the shape of the wrap separately. As said before, this may become more important in the future for collectors who are fanatic about condition. Yes, silly mistake there. Try that again: MS (wrap: G). Something like that! Good idea! I've never seen that usage before, but (wrap: G) makes perfect sense and is valid. If you agree, I can add it to the FAQ section of the MobyScale -- let me know. That would be nice! It would really help for the few cases in which one may want to also describe the condition of the wrap in the abbreviated form. I can picture it now: Dufus! You proudly displayed your complete Mt. Drash in your apartment window for a week for bragging rights? Of course this would probably yellow the BOX and not the wrap ;) Case in point (no,... not Drash) I have a few Ultima boxes where the color is almost completely gone. They must have been sitting in the sun for years. Alexander -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Holger Bachert wrote: In my opinion the whole shrinkwrap issue is way overrated - especially when every dodo can reshrink whatever he wants (and that happens all the time). just my 2 ct of course. Very true. I'm only making a fuss about this because of what the actual factory wrap means to me, especially when the game looks new all around. Re-wrapped games are opened games, and their wrap will come off very quickly once I get hold of them, to check if they are complete. Alexander -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Holger Bachert wrote: To me, mint means simply no blemishes or defects in the packaging or media. especially when every dodo can reshrink whatever he wants (and that happens all the time). Yes, which is why I am working (slowly) on a FAQ/web page of how to determine what wrap is original and which is reshrunk. It is my hope to put that, and other informational documents regarding to software collecting, at www.softwarecollecting.org (empty at the moment). just my 2 ct of course. Which you are perfectly entitled to :-) and is always welcome. My personal opinion lies in the middle: Mint Sealed items are obviously worth more than Near Mint items, but as to *how much more* is completely open to debate (and in some cases, not very much more at all). -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Alexander Zöller wrote: Good idea! I've never seen that usage before, but (wrap: G) makes perfect sense and is valid. If you agree, I can add it to the FAQ section of the MobyScale -- let me know. That would be nice! It would really help for the few cases in which one may want to also describe the condition of the wrap in the abbreviated form. Excellent. I've added it to the MobyScale, which now inches up to revision 1.03. The full permanent location of the MobyScale, as always, is http://www.mobygames.com/info/MobyScale;. -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Jim Leonard wrote: Excellent. I've added it to the MobyScale, which now inches up to revision 1.03. The full permanent location of the MobyScale, as always, is http://www.mobygames.com/info/MobyScale;. Very many thanks. Back to more important topics we go ;-) Alexander -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
RE: [SWCollect] Ouch
I still maintain the guide is confusing since you have one situation where a grade and modifier can not be used together. The highest level should simply be Mint and if sealed it gets the (S). If you insist on the Mint Sealed rating then it should be moved out of the same category as NM, F, VG, G, and ED since it does not share the same level of application. That being said NM should also be changed to have a definition that reads as near mint, i.e. Almost perfect, only the slightest blemish precludes it from being Mint. It seems to me that the biggest problem is that the scale deviates from other, much more established grading scales in use in other fields of collecting. I can not find any scales that define a near mint rating as actually being mint and this is the biggest problem I have with this list. I don't see how having shrink-wrap, means that we need a scale that deviates from other scales. I know it won't be changed but I just want to it to be known that there are others who disagree with it. Lucasarts Museum - http://lucasarts.vintagegaming.org -Original Message- From: Alexander Zöller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 12:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Jim Leonard wrote: Excellent. I've added it to the MobyScale, which now inches up to revision 1.03. The full permanent location of the MobyScale, as always, is http://www.mobygames.com/info/MobyScale;. Very many thanks. Back to more important topics we go ;-) Alexander -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Jim, please just use the GOTCHA main page: http://www.classicgaming.com/gotcha/ since that has the menu to get you to the CURIOUS pages. And my apologies to those new readers who didn't know about the Pandora's box I was opening with my little comment about MS :-) Hugh -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: May 10, 2004 12:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Alexander Zöller wrote: Would MS indicate not only the box and contents, but also the wrap is in flawless condition? For me M(S) means the box is perfect and shrinked, while it does leave some variability for the condition of the wrap, which even if free of tears may be in lesser shape at times (store stickers, grime that has settled into the wrap, age discoloration, etc.). If it has been opened, it cannot be considered Mint any more. That's what Near Mint (NM) is for. For complete details, consult http://www.mobygames.com/info/MobyScale Hugh: What official URL should I list in the MobyScale for your CURIOUS site? -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project:http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene:http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
That's been my exact gripe with the scale since the first day I discovered it. Brad - Original Message - From: Freddie Bingham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 3:37 PM Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch I still maintain the guide is confusing since you have one situation where a grade and modifier can not be used together. The highest level should simply be Mint and if sealed it gets the (S). If you insist on the Mint Sealed rating then it should be moved out of the same category as NM, F, VG, G, and ED since it does not share the same level of application. That being said NM should also be changed to have a definition that reads as near mint, i.e. Almost perfect, only the slightest blemish precludes it from being Mint. It seems to me that the biggest problem is that the scale deviates from other, much more established grading scales in use in other fields of collecting. I can not find any scales that define a near mint rating as actually being mint and this is the biggest problem I have with this list. I don't see how having shrink-wrap, means that we need a scale that deviates from other scales. I know it won't be changed but I just want to it to be known that there are others who disagree with it. Lucasarts Museum - http://lucasarts.vintagegaming.org -Original Message- From: Alexander Zöller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 12:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Jim Leonard wrote: Excellent. I've added it to the MobyScale, which now inches up to revision 1.03. The full permanent location of the MobyScale, as always, is http://www.mobygames.com/info/MobyScale;. Very many thanks. Back to more important topics we go ;-) Alexander -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
In a message dated 05/10/2004 4:29:02 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Maybe there is confusion over why the term Mint was chosen? Because "mint condition" implies, in numismatics anyway, "freshly minted" or "in the same condition as it was created in the mint". The pinnacle of condition in most grading scales implies Mint condition, and since a wrapped package is the only condition that can be considered "factory perfect", the Sealed part was added quite intentionally. Yup, remember Jim, when we were discussing the Moby scale (long time ago, at my storage locker I believe) I brought up the old numismatic grading scale (Fair, Good, Very Good, Fine, AU (almost uncirculated) and Uncirculated/BU/Mint State) etc. Uncirculated Mint State does have modifiers in the coin market though (MS60-MS70), MS70 "perfect", MS65 really nice (above average uncirculated), MS60 could be a poor strike or a lot of "bag marks". Coins when minted are put into bags (bag marks from coins hitting against each other). Then later put into rolls. Then removed from the rolls. Grading will always be subjective though, coin market has "professional" grading services now, you pay to get the coin graded and "slabbed". But there are flaws in that too, I won't go into detail here. Maybe we need a "professional" grading service for software? ;) Tom
Re: [SWCollect] Ouch
Fred, I think we're talking about pieces here that arn't ASSUMED to be re-shrinkwrapped. Someone can fake a whole box release if the wanted to, including components and stuff, but it doesn't mean the other grades are invalid. - Original Message - From: Freddie Bingham [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 5:46 PM Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch Again .. I still disagree for the simple fact that a game can re-shrinkwrapped and one can obtain the same quality of wrap that most games were shipped in (the softer, more pliable wrap). Take a hole punch to it and you will fool most people. Add to that all of the games that are floating about that were re-shrinwrapped after being returned to a software store. I, as well, know about this having worked at Babbage's and Egghead. A LOT more re-wrapping went on at Babbage's though as we had pretty low standards when it came to quality, you had to have written on the box to get it defected (generalization). How do you guys use this scale anyway? I've had games quoted to me a few times based on this, and in my experience, the grades are always over-blown unless it is something from Chris' store. A shrinkwrapped game that has bowing on the side or a crease on the flap is not MS (just something I've been told and sold before). There is a valley between F(S) and MS, yet many people have no problem liberally throwing MS about when it does not apply. Personally, I don't grade games as my perspective will be different than yours so I just send pictures. Freddie Lucasarts Museum - http://lucasarts.vintagegaming.org -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 2:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Freddie Bingham wrote: I still maintain the guide is confusing since you have one situation where a grade and modifier can not be used together. Taken at face value, yes, I can see how this might be confusing. However, if someone understands the motivation behind software collecting and the terms used, then it becomes clear why Mint always needs Sealed. Maybe there is confusion over why the term Mint was chosen? Because mint condition implies, in numismatics anyway, freshly minted or in the same condition as it was created in the mint. The pinnacle of condition in most grading scales implies Mint condition, and since a wrapped package is the only condition that can be considered factory perfect, the Sealed part was added quite intentionally. It seems to me that the biggest problem is that the scale deviates from other, much more established grading scales in use in other fields of collecting. I can not find any scales that define a near mint rating as actually being mint and this is the biggest problem I have with this list. I don't see how having shrink-wrap, means that we need a scale that deviates from other scales. It is precisely *because* our hobby has different indications of quality that the MobyScale was created. Sealed items are worth more than unsealed items, so the fact that it is sealed is a gradiation of quality, and should be noted. When researching hobbies and grading scales in creating the MobyScale, I couldn't find any particular one that was a good match; most of them didn't apply to a hobby where factory authenticity can be verified (wrapped, sealed, etc.), and the ones that did mention it didn't regard it highly. I would be interested to learn of other hobbies that value shrinkwrapped/sealed items to be of higher quality, and also what grading systems they use. I know it won't be changed but I just want to it to be known that there are others who disagree with it. Duly noted, and I (and others) value your input. The goal of the Scale was to avoid confusion; if you use your own scale, just make sure it can be referenced -- on a web page, in a listing, etc. -- so that further confusion can be avoided. It's no secret that the primary motivation of myself (and others who contributed to it) was purchsing things online labeled as Mint when it was received opened, or seeing items described as Very Fine ++ and Good Near Fine and wondering what the hell that meant :-) -- Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) World's largest electronic gaming project: http://www.MobyGames.com/ A delicious slice of the demoscene: http://www.MindCandyDVD.com/ Various oldskool PC rants and ramblings: http://www.oldskool.org/ -- This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to the swcollect mailing list. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' Archives are available at: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED
RE: [SWCollect] Ouch
If a game is re-shrinked, it is not MS. I can tell a reshrink job 99% of the time (having worked at EB myself). However, if I'm unsure, I'll make a note that the shrink may not be original (in that case, the buyer/trader is aware) or just open it myself. There is always the chance that somebody is trying to scam you (with shrink or other parts of the game). The scale doesn't need to account for that. That's totally besides the point. I've got about 3000 games. I think the scale is a handy way to include conditions in a large list of games. I also appreciate it when talking with other traders on this list (like C.E., Tom, etc.). It's a quick way to narrow down what you're looking for. If I'm looking for a high quality Bard's Tale, I won't even ask questions about C.E.'s G/G one (for example.) However, I will be interested in his NM/F one, and will ask more questions if I'm concerned about C.E.'s ratings. Hugh -Original Message- From: Freddie Bingham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: May 10, 2004 5:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [SWCollect] Ouch Again .. I still disagree for the simple fact that a game can re-shrinkwrapped and one can obtain the same quality of wrap that most games were shipped in (the softer, more pliable wrap). Take a hole punch to it and you will fool most people. Add to that all of the games that are floating about that were re-shrinwrapped after being returned to a software store. I, as well, know about this having worked at Babbage's and Egghead. A LOT more re-wrapping went on at Babbage's though as we had pretty low standards when it came to quality, you had to have written on the box to get it defected (generalization). How do you guys use this scale anyway? I've had games quoted to me a few times based on this, and in my experience, the grades are always over-blown unless it is something from Chris' store. A shrinkwrapped game that has bowing on the side or a crease on the flap is not MS (just something I've been told and sold before). There is a valley between F(S) and MS, yet many people have no problem liberally throwing MS about when it does not apply. Personally, I don't grade games as my perspective will be different than yours so I just send pictures. Freddie Lucasarts Museum - http://lucasarts.vintagegaming.org -Original Message- From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 2:28 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SWCollect] Ouch Freddie Bingham wrote: I still maintain the guide is confusing since you have one situation where a grade and modifier can not be used together. Taken at face value, yes, I can see how this might be confusing. However, if someone understands the motivation behind software collecting and the terms used, then it becomes clear why Mint always needs Sealed. Maybe there is confusion over why the term Mint was chosen? Because mint condition implies, in numismatics anyway, freshly minted or in the same condition as it was created in the mint. The pinnacle of condition in most grading scales implies Mint condition, and since a wrapped package is the only condition that can be considered factory perfect, the Sealed part was added quite intentionally. It seems to me that the biggest problem is that the scale deviates from other, much more established grading scales in use in other fields of collecting. I can not find any scales that define a near mint rating as actually being mint and this is the biggest problem I have with this list. I don't see how having shrink-wrap, means that we need a scale that deviates from other scales. It is precisely *because* our hobby has different indications of quality that the MobyScale was created. Sealed items are worth more than unsealed items, so the fact that it is sealed is a gradiation of quality, and should be noted. When researching hobbies and grading scales in creating the MobyScale, I couldn't find any particular one that was a good match; most of them didn't apply to a hobby where factory authenticity can be verified (wrapped, sealed, etc.), and the ones that did mention it didn't regard it highly. I would be interested to learn of other hobbies that value shrinkwrapped/sealed items to be of higher quality, and also what grading systems they use. I know it won't be changed but I just want to it to be known that there are others who disagree with it. Duly noted, and I (and others) value your input. The goal of the Scale was to avoid confusion; if you use your own scale, just make sure it can be referenced -- on a web page, in a listing, etc. -- so that further confusion can be avoided. It's no secret that the primary motivation of myself (and others who contributed to it) was purchsing things online labeled as Mint when it was received opened, or seeing items described as Very Fine ++ and Good Near Fine
