Re: t-and-f: More jeers for Yegorova
on 20/8/01 6:23 AM, Prof. Uri Goldbourt at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Radcliffe, in the meanwhile is also developing into the world's greatest whiner in atheletics. Yegorova in particualer, or drug taking in general, had nothing to do with Paula's failure to medal in the 10,000 M in Sydney or last week, and perhaps she should take a year off - not the track as Szabo says she might- but delivering judicious sermons to the world. Apparently, Yegorva won in both Edmonton and Zurich EPO-free and Epo's effects don't last beyond a few days. Has it occurred to us that she must have some ability even withoput the boost of EPO? Is this true? Does it only work in the few days after you take it. Is it true that you take it, run fast, a week later don't take it and return to your previous EPO less speed? I'm British, as is Radcliffe, so I could be said to have an interest, but it amazes me that someone who stands up for fair play is suddenly denigrated. This list member is not alone. It seems that Yegerova is being painted as unfortunate. Yes she was caught but they all do it so she was just unlucky. I don't remember Radcliffe claiming she would have won medals but for Yegerova. She wasn't even in the 5000, so that would have been very difficult. Obviously Yegerova had ability but she improved enormously this season and it has been proved that she took EPO. And even to someone apparantly as one eyed as Prof. Uri Goldbourt that makes her a cheat. Well done Radcliffe fror protesting. Randall Northam
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
on 20/8/01 12:21 AM, Alan Shank at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looking back at Estevez' complaint, I'm coming around to his way of thinking. To me, it does spoil the beauty of an international championship to have a runner sacrifice himself to benefit a teammate. For one thing, I think of track as an individual sport, except for the relays, of course. For another, I'd like to see a level playing field for everyone in a championship race. I don't think El Guerrouj needs an advantage. If he is concerned about Ngeny's or Estevez' finish and wants a fast pace, then he should have to take the risk, as Paula Radcliffe has, of making it his kind of race. I agree but would add that EL G was not the first to receive this sort of help. The first I saw were the Kenyans and I'm still sure it happened in the 1992 Olympic 10,000m when Shah received assistance from Boutayeb although he claimed not to want it. Also in the Barcelona 1500 a big Kenyan (whose name I forget) kept Morceli trapped on the kerb for as long as he could. Of course you could argue that the Brits ran as a team in the LA 1500 when Coe won and Cram was second! (That's a joke) Randall Northam
t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
By the way: A careful look at Yegorva's achievement last year will demonstarte that her progress was less enormous than many an athlete in the past, who still bask in glory - Florence Griffith-Joyner a988 amazing breakthrough first and foremost, but not only her The positive EPO examination for Yegorova in Paris is not contetsed. What I and others (including a prominent figure in world athletics such as Jonathan Edwards) are concerned with is that she is singled out and demonized among , most likely, a non-negligible number of athletes. We have yet to see or read such organized protest against Merlene Ottey who was acquitted on a mild technicality, or Linford Christie who escaped in his skeen teeth from disqualification in Seoul 1988 ( among vote majority, wrote Sebastian Coe) and who, after being robbed of a bronze medal in the 1991 world champs in Tokyo [Japanese starters permitting Denis Mitchel to run on, despite an obvious steal) , improved no less enormously then Yegorova and eventually was disqualified last year. Is Ben Johnson a mediocre athlete boosted by drug use and Christie one of Britain's darling and greatest athletes? A tough question, I admit. UG A
Re: t-and-f: More jeers for Yegorova
Randall, Some doubt is left after this as to who is one eyed. But one or two eyes, let's keep an open mind. Chhers, UG At 09:28 20/08/01 +0100, Randall Northam wrote: on 20/8/01 6:23 AM, Prof. Uri Goldbourt at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Radcliffe, in the meanwhile is also developing into the world's greatest whiner in atheletics. Yegorova in particualer, or drug taking in general, had nothing to do with Paula's failure to medal in the 10,000 M in Sydney or last week, and perhaps she should take a year off - not the track as Szabo says she might- but delivering judicious sermons to the world. Apparently, Yegorva won in both Edmonton and Zurich EPO-free and Epo's effects don't last beyond a few days. Has it occurred to us that she must have some ability even withoput the boost of EPO? Is this true? Does it only work in the few days after you take it. Is it true that you take it, run fast, a week later don't take it and return to your previous EPO less speed? I'm British, as is Radcliffe, so I could be said to have an interest, but it amazes me that someone who stands up for fair play is suddenly denigrated. This list member is not alone. It seems that Yegerova is being painted as unfortunate. Yes she was caught but they all do it so she was just unlucky. I don't remember Radcliffe claiming she would have won medals but for Yegerova. She wasn't even in the 5000, so that would have been very difficult. Obviously Yegerova had ability but she improved enormously this season and it has been proved that she took EPO. And even to someone apparantly as one eyed as Prof. Uri Goldbourt that makes her a cheat. Well done Radcliffe fror protesting. Randall Northam
Re: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
on 20/8/01 10:01 AM, Prof. Uri Goldbourt at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A careful look at Yegorva's achievement last year will demonstarte that her progress was less enormous than many an athlete in the past, who still bask in glory - Florence Griffith-Joyner a988 amazing breakthrough first and foremost, but not only her What I and others (including a prominent figure in world athletics such as Jonathan Edwards) are concerned with is that she is singled out and demonized among , most likely, a non-negligible number of athletes. We have yet to see or read such organized protest against Merlene Ottey who was acquitted on a mild technicality, or Linford Christie who escaped in his skeen teeth from disqualification in Seoul 1988 ( among vote majority, wrote Sebastian Coe) and who, after being robbed of a bronze medal in the 1991 world champs in Tokyo [Japanese starters permitting Denis Mitchel to run on, despite an obvious steal) , improved no less enormously then Yegorova and eventually was disqualified last year. Is Ben Johnson a mediocre athlete boosted by drug use and Christie one of Britain's darling and greatest athletes? Not a tough question. Johnson was caught and admitted drug use under oath, Christie was eventually caught and served a two year ban when he was retired. Did Christie take drugs when he was at his peak?. British libel laws are so unfairly biased towards the plaintiff that to accuse Christie in the British media of taking drugs was to expect a lawsuit. John McVicar tried and lost - before Christie was banned for nadrolone. I don't know if McVicar is trying to recover the damages he had to pay, although I have heard talk. You say Yegerova was demonised and singled out among most likely a non-negligible number of athletes. I assume you mean that a lot of athletes take EPO or some drugs. Yegerova is demonised because at the World Championships she was the only one that the charge can be levelled at with certainty. She was caught and got off on a technicality. That's the nub, until an athlete is caught it is all suspicion. And until you have proof it is unfair to accuse someone of using drugs. It may seem obvious but you need proof and it was there in Yegerova's case. Are you saying that Florence Griffth-Joyner's amazing improvement did not attract a lot of suspicion? If you are you did not read the magazine I worked for, the magazine which competed against us or the South African magazine which printed before and after pohotgraphs of her. Nor were you in Seoul where her 200m run was greeted by the media with almost total cynicism. There was also a lot of protest at Ottey getting off and a lot (subject to the strictures mentioned above) of Christie. His improvement was remarked upon not so much after 1991 and Tokyo when it was not so enormous (he went from 9.92 in 1991 to 9.96 in 1992, which even using the convoluted argument you employ in your post cannot be called an improvement), but when he went from 10.42 in 1985 to 10.04 a year later. He was in his mid-20s at that time and the reason given was that he stopped partying and started training properly. You seem to suggest that because I'm British I'm biaised in favour of British athletes. Think again. The point about Yegerova is that she was caught, Christie received the benefit of the doubt in Seoul. That may be a bad thing, you choose, but you cannot argue against the fact that we KNOW Yegerova is a cheat and we just suspect that others are. Randall Northam
t-and-f: fastest or best?
Geoff Pietsch schreef: Yes, the pacing in major championships seems troubling, BUT should World and Olympic Champions only be those who have the best kick? El G clearly is the fastest 1500 runner in the world right now. Isn't he a more deserving World Champion than a 3:31 or 3:32 guy who might sit on him for 3 1/2 laps, benefit from that draft, and outkick him in the stretch? In my opinion: no! The 'clearly fastest' is not a more deserving champion. That's why they invented records: the fastest runner gets the record. The gold goes to the best championship competator. If he does not like to be 'sat on', he should devise another race strategy. That's the fun of championship: we already have far too many paced races without any excitement other than the (95% failure garantueed - a great way to ruin your sport) 'record potential'. Regards, WK
Re: t-and-f: More Yegorva
I guess if we all weren't so Pro-American, we could argue that SFH dropping out in Edmonton makes her more guilty towards drug use. This way she didn't have to get caught on the world stage. I'm not accusing anyone here, but we never seem to see Americans in the same light as the eastern europeans! Gary Liguori currently at Youngstown State University --- Tom Jimenez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While I have serious doubts as to her innocence, I am wondering about the due process of the whole thing. I am assuming that there is a reason behind the procedure of requiring both a urine and blood test (some sort of safe guard I would guess). Would the comments toward the whole Yegerova affair be the same if it had been an American, say a Suzy Favor Hamilton? (ok... Suzy's not a great choice following her disastrous WC's but the excuse would be good!) Or would we all be standing up for her and denouncing the whole thing as a lack of due process? There must be reasons on why they require both tests and if they don't follow those procedures... then what? T Jimenez __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Though the rules seem to apply only to lapped runners providing pacing assistance (Bob Hersh?), I feel that El Guerrouj and Kaouch should have been disqualified for violating the spirit of fair play, especially since officials were aware of what happened in 1999. You know the old saying, Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. The IAAF should be embarrassed by what happened and should send out a warning that any further occurrences will be dealt with harshly. By this reasoning, the winner should be DQ'ed in the 1500 at every GP meet where there's a rabbit (which means at just about every GP meet). IAAF rules, after all, apply to all international competition, not just the World Championships. But people don't get DQ'ed because pacing by a rabbit is permitted by the rules. Looking beyond the letter of the rules, I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that El G did not violate the spirit of fair play and did nothing that should have resulted in a disqualification. Bob H
t-and-f: New 1500m rule...
And just how would you word that rule? Buck Jones -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sunday, August 19, 2001 6:59 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races In a message dated 8/19/01 7:41:29 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Here's hoping when/if El Guerrouj contests the 5000 final in Paris 2003 that any other Moroccans who may be in the race will be running for themselves! Though the rules seem to apply only to lapped runners providing pacing assistance (Bob Hersh?), I feel that El Guerrouj and Kaouch should have been disqualified for violating the spirit of fair play, especially since officials were aware of what happened in 1999. You know the old saying, Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. The IAAF should be embarrassed by what happened and should send out a warning that any further occurrences will be dealt with harshly. Walt Murphy
Re: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
Hi! I quite frankly don't understand what is the fuss about all this drug/non-drug business. In a society where everyone is on drugs, from recreational purposes, medical purposes and even to get through the stresses of every day life, I don't see any moral to ask these athletes to behave as if they lived in a different world. This drug war that the IAAF and IOC carry out is like the US drug war. It is lost from the beginning. And please spare me the effects of a lifetime of drug taking. Many drugs help us and nobody is thinking twice about taking them when they need. The Florence Joyner case happened because she took way too many drugs without any proper medical control. I don't see the same happening to the likes of Koch, Kratochvilova, etc (assuming that all took their fair amount of drugs). They all seem alive and well... I agree with Michael Contopoulos when he says that the majority, or at least many, of the top level athletes are on something illegal. Yegorova, Said Sief, Longo... I mean come on people... Gebreselassie, Kimathi and El G all may test negative, and all may be legit, BUT PLEASE don't tell me that Yegorova is doing something unique here. Of course this cannot be proven... But my point is 'who gives a shit'!? Is the same as you asking to your bank to test your bank manager for drugs! The pressures in society nowadays are so high that the drug problem does not lie in urine, blood and high tech tests, but in the way people live and what they expect. Moreover, nobody wants to see everyone suspended and unattainable records... I just remember Heike Henkel saying that whoever jumps over 2.03 is on drugs and she jumped over that height many times!! The problem with Yegorova is that she was caught and she has no 'friends' in the media/sponsors to support her. I remember a lot of doping cases where the media was VERY sympathetic and comprehensive. As long as you come out, cry and say that you are going to change - the true american way of solving this situations. But Yegorova has done none of that and on top of all she falls in the pathetic category of 'east block women machine that is half men, half woman'! I guess there is no salvation for her. What are the comments of this list about the IAAF behaviour in this story!? The story should've never come out. They were the ones that created the whole confusion. How come news like this come out in the open? Someone is clearly interested is destroying Yegorova. This is the only thing we can be sure of. I agree with Uri Goldbourt. Radcliffe and the BBC at edmonton made a huge fuss about Yegorova with special reports and mickey mouse possibilities of a eventual protest. This was ridiculous and had a touch of pathetic patriotism (or 'anti-russianism'). Finally, as Michael Contopoulos put no one is about to convince me that this is a clean sport. So let's work with what we have and not with what we wish. Miguel
t-and-f: RE: t-and-f: El G's pace in Zürich
Amazing consistency indeed! good post. I guess since the WR was set with a 2:46+ at 1200m split ... then if you are 2:46-high at 1200m it is not hyperbole for the announcer to state that he's on WR pace ... Additionally, since nobody has probably EVER run 2:45+ at 1200m and still carried on to a sub-3:30 (indeed probably carried on at all) ... then something in the area of 2:46.00-.99 for 1200m has a reasonable shot at a 3:25.99 WR. 2:46.00 (55.33 a lap) + 39.99 (53.33 pace for 400m) = 3:25.99 With enough pressure (and fitness) on that last lap (like El G's 3:43.13 mile), he is capable of low-53 pace at the end. WR pace in the 1500m is now 54.93 per 400m (2:44.8 for an even-pace 1200m split). I think the next WR set might require a 2:45-high at 1200m despite what I wrote above. How long will it be until we see a 3:25? With El G likely moving up, and not having run within 2 seconds of the 1500/mile WRs this year, he may never do it. It looks like Ali S-S's career may be over as soon as it got started. Ngeny has taken a page from the Dan Komen playbook. Lagat is only 26, but 3:25 seems like a lot of improvement from current level. Thoughts? /Brian McEwen -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 7:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: El G's pace in Zürich On the Z telecast, they said words to the effect of he's on WR pace when he hit the 1200 point in 2:46.90, and at that juncture I realized I wasn't really hip as to what WR pace was in the 1500. In a quick run through the all-time list, I note that El G has gone through the 1200 faster than that on at least 5 occasions. Here's his 12 fastest races ever (Z being No. 12), with 1200 splits unavailable for a pair of them. His consistency in his fastest races (over four seasons) is pretty remarkable. Note that he has always been in the lead at that point. Columns are the time, the date, the 1200 split and his time for the final 300. Zürich was easily his slowest finish ever, and it certainly showed in the final 100m. 3:26.00 El Guerrouj 7/14/98 (2:46.34) (39.66) 3:26.45 El Guerrouj 8/12/98 (2:46.49) (39.96) 3:27.21 El Guerrouj 8/11/00 (2:46.22) (40.99) 3:27.65 El Guerrouj 8/24/99 (2:46.79) (40.86) 3:28.21 El Guerrouj 7/7/99 (2:47.0)(41.2) 3:28.37 El Guerrouj 8/8/98 (2:47.92) (40.45) 3:28.38 El Guerrouj 7/6/01 (unknown) (?) 3:28.57 El Guerrouj 8/11/99 (2:46.61) (41.96) 3:28.91 El Guerrouj 8/13/97 (2:48.24) (40.67) 3:28.92 El Guerrouj 8/22/97 (2:47.04) (41.88) 3:29.05 El Guerrouj 8/23/96 (unknown) (?) 3:29.06 El Guerrouj 8/17/01 (2:46.90) (42.16) And here's what Morceli, the fastest non-EG guy ever, did in his two best races (the fastest the previous WR): 3:27.37 Morceli 7/12/95 (2:47.1)(40.3) 3:27.52 Morceli 7/24/95 (2:47.26) (40.26) gh (eager to spark a conversation on anything but furshlugginer drug topics!)
Re: t-and-f: RE: t-and-f: El G's pace in Zürich
To begin with... 1200 feet is hardly altitude. I get so frustrated when people say that Edmonton is at altitude... blah blah blah had to deal with the altitude, etc. Do you guys know how low 1200 feet is? There is no conversion factor for 1200 feet and I would have to say that there is NO negligible effect on performance... let alone a difference of a second or more in a 1500. PUHLEASE! For those who think that there is its all in their head. Especially after being there for a week or more... come on. Limo really looked labored by the altitude in his 13:00 5k win (13th fastest time of the year, 4 seconds slower than the fastest time of the year... owned by himself). Said Sief probably atributed the loss to the effects of the altitude, though. The next 1500 WR holder and 3:25 guy??? Out of the guys racing right now, I would have to say Lagat has the best shot. He's still improving and very well could be the next great miler going into the next 1, maybe 2 Olympics. Who knows... maybe Webb will get on some good stuff after college and run that fast or faster. We'll just have to wait and see. M From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: RE: t-and-f: El G's pace in Zürich Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 10:52:13 -0400 Amazing consistency indeed! good post. I guess since the WR was set with a 2:46+ at 1200m split ... then if you are 2:46-high at 1200m it is not hyperbole for the announcer to state that he's on WR pace ... Additionally, since nobody has probably EVER run 2:45+ at 1200m and still carried on to a sub-3:30 (indeed probably carried on at all) ... then something in the area of 2:46.00-.99 for 1200m has a reasonable shot at a 3:25.99 WR. 2:46.00 (55.33 a lap) + 39.99 (53.33 pace for 400m) = 3:25.99 With enough pressure (and fitness) on that last lap (like El G's 3:43.13 mile), he is capable of low-53 pace at the end. WR pace in the 1500m is now 54.93 per 400m (2:44.8 for an even-pace 1200m split). I think the next WR set might require a 2:45-high at 1200m despite what I wrote above. How long will it be until we see a 3:25? With El G likely moving up, and not having run within 2 seconds of the 1500/mile WRs this year, he may never do it. It looks like Ali S-S's career may be over as soon as it got started. Ngeny has taken a page from the Dan Komen playbook. Lagat is only 26, but 3:25 seems like a lot of improvement from current level. Thoughts? /Brian McEwen -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 7:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: El G's pace in Zürich On the Z telecast, they said words to the effect of he's on WR pace when he hit the 1200 point in 2:46.90, and at that juncture I realized I wasn't really hip as to what WR pace was in the 1500. In a quick run through the all-time list, I note that El G has gone through the 1200 faster than that on at least 5 occasions. Here's his 12 fastest races ever (Z being No. 12), with 1200 splits unavailable for a pair of them. His consistency in his fastest races (over four seasons) is pretty remarkable. Note that he has always been in the lead at that point. Columns are the time, the date, the 1200 split and his time for the final 300. Zürich was easily his slowest finish ever, and it certainly showed in the final 100m. 3:26.00 El Guerrouj 7/14/98 (2:46.34) (39.66) 3:26.45 El Guerrouj 8/12/98 (2:46.49) (39.96) 3:27.21 El Guerrouj 8/11/00 (2:46.22) (40.99) 3:27.65 El Guerrouj 8/24/99 (2:46.79) (40.86) 3:28.21 El Guerrouj 7/7/99 (2:47.0)(41.2) 3:28.37 El Guerrouj 8/8/98 (2:47.92) (40.45) 3:28.38 El Guerrouj 7/6/01 (unknown) (?) 3:28.57 El Guerrouj 8/11/99 (2:46.61) (41.96) 3:28.91 El Guerrouj 8/13/97 (2:48.24) (40.67) 3:28.92 El Guerrouj 8/22/97 (2:47.04) (41.88) 3:29.05 El Guerrouj 8/23/96 (unknown) (?) 3:29.06 El Guerrouj 8/17/01 (2:46.90) (42.16) And here's what Morceli, the fastest non-EG guy ever, did in his two best races (the fastest the previous WR): 3:27.37 Morceli 7/12/95 (2:47.1)(40.3) 3:27.52 Morceli 7/24/95 (2:47.26) (40.26) gh (eager to spark a conversation on anything but furshlugginer drug topics!) _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
You say Yegerova was demonised and singled out among most likely a non-negligible number of athletes. I assume you mean that a lot of athletes take EPO or some drugs. Yegerova is demonised because at the World Championships she was the only one that the charge can be levelled at with certainty. She was caught and got off on a technicality. To be 100% accurate, we should say she is the only one who's test was improperly made public. There may very well be other times that only the urine test has been done and it was appropriately kept secret. Don't get me wrong - if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck, most of us (myself included) will believe that it is. The urine test is not pretty certain by itself. But legally, procedure was not followed, and the fact that it was made public when it shouldn't have been is a lose-lose situation for our whole sport. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
Perhaps I am as one-eyed as Uri, but I think he has made a very valid point. Merlene Ottey went on to compete in Sydney after testing positive for nandrolone, but then being reintstated by IAAF due to technical errors. The only controversy was whether or not she should be allowed to run the relay, which meant some other runner will be left off the relay team. There was never a question on whether she has a moral right to compete in Sydney. There were no threats of boycotts, no scandals and no Nandrolone Cheats Out signs. Certainly no booing from the stands, or even from the media boxes. In fact media presented her story in positive light, as someone who I think made the final in 4 consequitive Olympics or something like that. And even though Radcliffe had critisized IAAF's decision to reinstate Yegorova, I never heard her speak out in similar fashion against her own federation's decision to clear Richardson, Christie, Walker and Cadogan (here I mean UK athletics). She did admit she was critical of Moorcroft's handling of Richardson case in one of the interviews, but it was quite subdued critisism, especially compared to her Edmonton campaign. Maybe Diane Modahl's case and the bankruptcy of Brittish Athletic had something to do with it, you think? In addition to Radcliffe's admission that she considers Dieter Baumann innocent (he was set up, according to her), it's hard to believe her that she would protest just as actively if the test results leak concerned the brittish, instead of the russian athlete. Makes me wonder if the test result leaks, even after only A sample has been tested, will become a standard practice, or will the leak be up to the sole discretion of the tester? Also - whatever happened to Yegorova's B-sample? The tests were delayed for a long time after which the tests has been rendered incolnclusive. Does it mean they were really inconclusive? I always assumed there should be two scenarios - positive or negative. Does it mean the test was really positive and the IAAF didn't want to release it because of their reinstatement decision? Then why did they announced that the B-sample WILL be tested, and even named a deadline? Or does it mean the test was negative and the IAAF didn't want to release it because they didn't want to compromise the validity of the test itself? Maybe I am reading too much into this, but I do recall that the urine test wasn't allowed to stand on it's own due to the findings (by the test developers themselves) that it may produce too many false-positives. Oleg. PS: the correct spelling is Yegorova, not Yegerova or Yegorva. on 20/8/01 10:01 AM, Prof. Uri Goldbourt at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A careful look at Yegorva's achievement last year will demonstarte that her progress was less enormous than many an athlete in the past, who still bask in glory - Florence Griffith-Joyner a988 amazing breakthrough first and foremost, but not only her What I and others (including a prominent figure in world athletics such as Jonathan Edwards) are concerned with is that she is singled out and demonized among , most likely, a non-negligible number of athletes. We have yet to see or read such organized protest against Merlene Ottey who was acquitted on a mild technicality, or Linford Christie who escaped in his skeen teeth from disqualification in Seoul 1988 ( among vote majority, wrote Sebastian Coe) and who, after being robbed of a bronze medal in the 1991 world champs in Tokyo [Japanese starters permitting Denis Mitchel to run on, despite an obvious steal) , improved no less enormously then Yegorova and eventually was disqualified last year. Is Ben Johnson a mediocre athlete boosted by drug use and Christie one of Britain's darling and greatest athletes? Not a tough question. Johnson was caught and admitted drug use under oath, Christie was eventually caught and served a two year ban when he was retired. Did Christie take drugs when he was at his peak?. British libel laws are so unfairly biased towards the plaintiff that to accuse Christie in the British media of taking drugs was to expect a lawsuit. John McVicar tried and lost - before Christie was banned for nadrolone. I don't know if McVicar is trying to recover the damages he had to pay, although I have heard talk. You say Yegerova was demonised and singled out among most likely a non-negligible number of athletes. I assume you mean that a lot of athletes take EPO or some drugs. Yegerova is demonised because at the World Championships she was the only one that the charge can be levelled at with certainty. She was caught and got off on a technicality. That's the nub, until an athlete is caught it is all suspicion. And until you have proof it is unfair to accuse someone of using drugs. It may seem obvious but you need proof and it was there in Yegerova's case. Are you saying that Florence Griffth-Joyner's amazing improvement did not attract a lot of
Re: t-and-f: How to train NOT to be able to kick and win races.!!
Steve Bennett wrote: If you want to train to run good times over 1500 -1m but never win major races do the following. 1. Do lots of long slow distance training.160km a week plus. IIRC, Harald Norpoth, who was a deadly finisher, was coached by a guy (forget his name) who advocated long, slow distance and very little running at race pace or above. Cheers, Alan Shank
Re: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
In a message dated Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:36:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Ed Dana Parrot [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Don't get me wrong - if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck, most of us (myself included) will believe that it is. The urine test is not pretty certain by itself. But legally, procedure was not followed, and the fact that it was made public when it shouldn't have been is a lose-lose situation for our whole sport. gee, you mean maybe USATF had it right all along? gh
Re: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
And please spare me the effects of a lifetime of drug taking. Many drugs help us and nobody is thinking twice about taking them when they need. I think 3 or 4 times before I take ANY drug, including aspirin or cold medicine. I know many other people who feel the same way. There is quite a bit of scientific evidence to support both sides of this issue, so it's a matter of what you choose to believe. Personally, I believe in drug testing. I can respect the fact that you don't. As I've said about other topics, I can't imagine I could convince you that my opinion is correct, nor do I expect to be convinced by anyone else that we should abandon testing. In one sense, this issue is as much a matter of what you believe as it is one of logic or fact. What are the comments of this list about the IAAF behaviour in this story!? The story should've never come out. They were the ones that created the whole confusion. How come news like this come out in the open? Someone is clearly interested is destroying Yegorova. This is the only thing we can be sure of. At least four different people have commented on that, including myself on two different occasions. Maybe you missed the comments. The IAAF botched this. I would not, however, assume that they are out to get Yegorova. It could very well be incompetence or miscommunication, not a calculated plan - we'll never know. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: More Yegorva
I guess if we all weren't so Pro-American, we could argue that SFH dropping out in Edmonton makes her more guilty towards drug use. This way she didn't have to get caught on the world stage. I'm not accusing anyone here, but we never seem to see Americans in the same light as the eastern europeans! Sure we do. But we're running so slowly that if we are using drugs, we're really screwing it up. I can think more than one prominent American distance runner who has been the subject of drug accusations - deserved or otherwise - in the past few years. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
In a message dated Sun, 19 Aug 2001 10:24:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Walt, as Bob said, why should El G be disqualified as everyone in that race had the benefit of Kaouch, not just El G. While I'm not joining the forces calling for a DQ, I do have to take issue with the everyone had the benefit statement, on two points: El G knew what the pace would be and the others didn't. (Of course, anybody with half a brain should have known what was coming after Seville and should have been prepared to go to the front and do something about it. While that might hamper your chances of winning, you should know you have zero chance of winning in a GP-rabbit-style race, so why not take the chance?) Familiarity with the cadence and stride pattern of Kaouch. Not only do you have a better idea of how close you can run to the rabbit without getting clipped, ff you've ever done endless intervals, you now how much easier they are when you're running with someone with whom you're familiar. When you get into that rhythm, instead of working at running, it just flows. That was a bit of symbiosis only El G could enjoy, under the circumstance. Is it illegal? No. Is it in bad taste? Yup, just like it was when Ben Jipcho did the dirty work for Keino against Ryun in '68. gh
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
B. Kunnath wrote: Alan, Great analysis! A little unfair to ElG to use the championship rabbit excuse as his winning strategy. After all in a rabbited race, anyone can use the services of the said rabbit. If all the runners know that ElG is the man to beat, and they use the rabbit as much as he does, I dont see any extra advantage he may have over anyone else..except the rabbit! Well, as I answered in another post, El G wants the fast pace to lessen the chance that he'll be outkicked, so he is getting an advantage; I think he should pay for that advantage by leading, rather than accepting his teammate's sacrifice. Radcliffe may have benefitted if she had tucked in behind the Ethiopian runners for a few laps and made them share the work load..it was a tactical mistake. I think her case is a little bit different. She's not the best 10K runner, as El G is the best 1500m runner. Tulu ran a 60+ last lap in Sydney; that's not just an issue of basic speed. Tulu was much fresher than Radcliffe after the same pace. She's just a better 10K runner than Radcliffe. Cheers, Alan Shank
t-and-f: more on Z 800 splits
Swedish commentator A. Lennart Julin had a watch on Borzakovskiy, and from there I was able to deduce Czapiewski splits w/ relative certainty. Note that the Pole not only negative splits the race in a 400/400 sense, he also does the same in the 200s of his last 400. To run your fastest 200 of the race as the last one in a 1:43 is way impressive! Based on TV, we know Borza has an 0.2 margin on Czap at 500m; they're next seen w/ 150 to go, at which point the Borza edge is more like 0.3. Positing it highly unlikely C and B changed positions twice during the missing 150m, I'd say it's a reasonable assumption that if Borza is 1:17.5 at the 600 that Czap is 1:17.7. So I'd make them: 5. Czapiewski 1:43.22 NR (25.9, 26.1 [52.0], c25.7 [c1:17.7], c25.5) (52.0/51.2) 6. Borzakovskiy 1:43.30 25.8, 25.9 [51.7], 25.8 [1:17.5], 25.8) (51.7, 51.6) gh
Re: t-and-f: RE: t-and-f: El G's pace in Zürich
How long will it be until we see a 3:25? Thoughts? Once a dependable urine test for EPO is developed, we will not see a 3:25 (or 12:35) for several years after that. Just like the levelling of women's sprint times and weight event distances in both sexes since random testing was introduced. I hope I'm wrong (and I'm not accusing anyone specific although I understand the implications of my statement). - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
Hey, I wish that El G wouldn't use his countrymen as rabbits as well. BUT, I don't feel as though it is worthy of disqualification. Lagat should have gone out ahead of Kaouch and slowed the pace down. Or the Spanish should have boxed him in. There are many ways to get around it that a true champion would have figured out. If Morceli was in that race at his prime, do you think Kaouch would have prevented him from winning? Probably not. He would have figured out a way to neutralize Kaouch. Now, who would have won is anyone's guess... but you can bet that if it was El G, it wouldn't be because of his countryman. By the way, in my last post I meant 2200 feet, not 1200. M From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:44:29 EDT In a message dated Sun, 19 Aug 2001 10:24:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Walt, as Bob said, why should El G be disqualified as everyone in that race had the benefit of Kaouch, not just El G. While I'm not joining the forces calling for a DQ, I do have to take issue with the everyone had the benefit statement, on two points: El G knew what the pace would be and the others didn't. (Of course, anybody with half a brain should have known what was coming after Seville and should have been prepared to go to the front and do something about it. While that might hamper your chances of winning, you should know you have zero chance of winning in a GP-rabbit-style race, so why not take the chance?) Familiarity with the cadence and stride pattern of Kaouch. Not only do you have a better idea of how close you can run to the rabbit without getting clipped, ff you've ever done endless intervals, you now how much easier they are when you're running with someone with whom you're familiar. When you get into that rhythm, instead of working at running, it just flows. That was a bit of symbiosis only El G could enjoy, under the circumstance. Is it illegal? No. Is it in bad taste? Yup, just like it was when Ben Jipcho did the dirty work for Keino against Ryun in '68. gh _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championshipraces
Robert Hersh wrote: Message text written by INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Though the rules seem to apply only to lapped runners providing pacing assistance (Bob Hersh?), I feel that El Guerrouj and Kaouch should have been disqualified for violating the spirit of fair play, especially since officials were aware of what happened in 1999. You know the old saying, Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. The IAAF should be embarrassed by what happened and should send out a warning that any further occurrences will be dealt with harshly. By this reasoning, the winner should be DQ'ed in the 1500 at every GP meet where there's a rabbit (which means at just about every GP meet). IAAF rules, after all, apply to all international competition, not just the World Championships. But people don't get DQ'ed because pacing by a rabbit is permitted by the rules. Looking beyond the letter of the rules, I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that El G did not violate the spirit of fair play and did nothing that should have resulted in a disqualification. Bob H I never meant, myself, to imply that El G should be disqualified or even that it was unfair; I just don't like it. I feel that if he wants a fast pace he should set it himself. Let his teammate run his own race. Cheers, Alan Shank
Re: t-and-f: RE: t-and-f: El G's pace in Zürich
Message text written by Michael Contopoulos To begin with... 1200 feet is hardly altitude. I get so frustrated when people say that Edmonton is at altitude.. I believe Edmonton's altitude is about 2100 feet, not 1200.
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
Randall Northam wrote: on 20/8/01 12:21 AM, Alan Shank at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Looking back at Estevez' complaint, I'm coming around to his way of thinking. To me, it does spoil the beauty of an international championship to have a runner sacrifice himself to benefit a teammate. For one thing, I think of track as an individual sport, except for the relays, of course. For another, I'd like to see a level playing field for everyone in a championship race. I don't think El Guerrouj needs an advantage. If he is concerned about Ngeny's or Estevez' finish and wants a fast pace, then he should have to take the risk, as Paula Radcliffe has, of making it his kind of race. I agree but would add that EL G was not the first to receive this sort of help. Yes, that's why I said re-introduced earlier in the post. Cheers, Alan Shank
Re: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
Just so we understand each other Miguel. You are trying to tell us to let society dictate morality, fairness, and righteousness. That simply is irresponsible, and a very immature way to conduct yourself. It is the Well everyone else was doing it! attitude, that has cost more than a few kids some skin on their backsides. As far as I am concerned, these athletes live in our society and their morals and behaviour is pretty much influenced by the community. I am not defending the 'Well everyone else was doing it! attitude, but in a sport where new training methods, new shoes, new materials, new surfaces are quickly absorbed why not the new pharmacological innovations!? Why do we distrust so much science and all the sudden we want everyone to be clean! Despite the fact that the human species was NEVER 'clean'. If 'clean' is the motto, I want to go further, I want everyone to be bare feet! I do not need to convince you that the sport is clean, but I damn sure will convince of what is right and just, and proper. I am afraid I grew up in a post-modern society and the 'right, just and proper' motto has long disappear. And do not get it confused, it is not a drug war, it is an attempt to keep the nature of fair play in the sport. People are making mistakes in how to deal with the information, but they are making a mistake by dealing wit the issue. Fair play!? In a 'dog eat dog' world where is the fair play!? Why athletes should behave differently? I will assume you are a fan, I am a little more than that. And I will tell you, the sport is no where near as dirty as this list, or the track public likes to think it is. I am not saying it is squeaky-clean, but it is no where near as dirty as many want us to believe. Losers and cynics take that easy thought process. I am a cynic and I have no problems in admitting it. However, I wasn't born like this... Miguel
t-and-f: Altitude correction... opinion stands...
In my last post I corrected my typo of 1200 feet. My opinion stands, as I was aware that it was 2200 (2217 to be exact I believe). If any race would have felt an effect from altitude, it would have been the 5k, not the 1500... and they seemed just fine with it. In addition, IF there is any effect, after being there for a week or more, one should have adjusted to it to the point where it would not have effected their performance. 13:00, people. How can you argue with that? In addition, you do all realize that El G ran within 2.5 seconds of his best all year (leading the 1500 list) and that Lagat ran his second fastest 1500 of the year, missing his fastest mark by .2 sec (he's run slower 6 other times this year). Finally, Driss Maazouzi ran his fastest time of the season in the final. I hardly think any of these guys had trouble with the altitude. Altitude Shmaltitude... any athlete who says they had trouble with it, had it in their head that they were having trouble. M From: Robert Hersh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Michael Contopoulos [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: RE: t-and-f: El G's pace in Zürich Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:59:38 -0400 Message text written by Michael Contopoulos To begin with... 1200 feet is hardly altitude. I get so frustrated when people say that Edmonton is at altitude.. I believe Edmonton's altitude is about 2100 feet, not 1200. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
In a message dated 8/20/01 9:38:55 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: By this reasoning, the winner should be DQ'ed in the 1500 at every GP meet where there's a rabbit (which means at just about every GP meet). IAAF rules, after all, apply to all international competition, not just the World Championships. But people don't get DQ'ed because pacing by a rabbit is permitted by the rules. Looking beyond the letter of the rules, I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that El G did not violate the spirit of fair play and did nothing that should have resulted in a disqualification. With the increased prize money that's at stake on the Grand Prix/Golden League circuit, I would propose that rabbits be eliminated from those meets. Although I realize that's not going to happen anytime soon, I think that most fans and meet directors would find that true competitive races would be more exciting than all of those (often boring) Time Trials that are the norm now. And Bob, please explain why what Kaouch did in 1999 and this year is any different, in terms of fair play, than when a lapped (or about to be lapped) runner provides pacing help to a teammate (which is covered in the IAAF rules). Walt Murphy
Re: t-and-f: How to train NOT to be able to kick and win races.!!
One word: Strides. IIRC, Harald Norpoth, who was a deadly finisher, was coached by a guy (forget his name) who advocated long, slow distance and very little running at race pace or above. Cheers, Alan Shank _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Altitude correction... opinion stands...
In addition, IF there is any effect, after being there for a week or more, one should have adjusted to it to the point where it would not have effected their performance. I completely agree that the altutude can not have been much of factor, and not only that, even if it did have a tiny effect on the times, it should not have had a noticeable effect on how the athletes felt. However, if a physical adaptation DOES occur, then it stands to reason that even with adaptation the times will be slower for distance runners. Bottom line - talking about the effects of altitude in Edmonton is irrelevent to the competition in any meaningful sense. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Altitude correction... .
What's with the concern over altitude at Edmonton? 2100 feet or so? Recognized need for altitude adjustments according to the NCAA rulebook begin at 3100.
RE: altitude (was: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!
In a message dated Tue, 14 Aug 2001 7:58:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes (and subsequent posters have carried on in a different thread): That 'altitude' was killing the distance runners wasn't it? 2200' is just a little higher than that high-altitude Mecca called 'Spokane' (1900'). More to the point, Pullman (home of Washington State) is at 2352ft. And note that Tucson (U. of Arizona) is 2421ft. In more than a quarter-century of Pac 10 (né 8) watching, it's my considered opinion that that minimal altitude (about 700m) is indeed significant. Both in terms of aiding sprinters and in slowing down distance runners (with people in the 800/1500 range probably not affected either way). Leaving any snide references to Pullberg out of the loop, it's no coincidence that Henry Rono did his collegiate-competition recordsetting in the sea-level climes of Berkeley and Seattle. Ditto Gerry Lindgren. Air is remarkable stuff, particulalarly when its oxygen content becomes a factor. The effects may seem so slight as to be inconsequential, but they quickly add up. gh
Re: t-and-f: Best Middle Distance Coaches in the US
One coach who may be overlooked at times is Gary Weineke at Illinois. he has coached 6 or 7 of the top 800m guys in Big Ten history, including WC and OG finalist Marko Koers and has had a 4 X 880 team set a world best. Additionally, his record with what most would regard as mediocre and unrecruitable high school talent has been very impressive. He routinely takes 1:58-2:01 guys and turns them into 1:50-1:53 guys (or better) and seems to be able to turn pretty much any 1:55 or better guy into a routine scorer in the Big Ten or even into the Big ten Champion (Bobby True for exmample, was a 1:53 hs guy). If you look at what he does year in, year out with mostly in-state guys, many of them walk-ons, his 800m success is truely impressive. Paul On Sun, 19 Aug 2001, David Andersen wrote: Who are the best active middle distance (800,1500) coaches in the US and why? *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: RE: t-and-f: El G's pace in Zürich
Americans could have gone to that high altitude mecca we call Spokane (1900') to prepare. ;) Message text written by Michael Contopoulos To begin with... 1200 feet is hardly altitude. I get so frustrated when people say that Edmonton is at altitude.. I believe Edmonton's altitude is about 2100 feet, not 1200.
Re: t-and-f: Altitude correction... .
Perhaps the confusion over the Edmonton altitude has been a mistaken assumption that the effects of altitude are linear when, in fact, they are not. At 5500 ft, the 1500 is about 4-6s slower for MOST people. At 2100 ft someone might concluded then, that it should be 1-2s slower. This is not the case however as there is no real effect at 2100 ft. It probably starts to have an effect for some individuals around 3000ft, but it doesn't seem to be an across-the-board effect until over 4000. Paul On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Wes Cook wrote: What's with the concern over altitude at Edmonton? 2100 feet or so? Recognized need for altitude adjustments according to the NCAA rulebook begin at 3100. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Morceli, El Guerrouj and pacing in championship races
And Bob, please explain why what Kaouch did in 1999 and this year is any different, in terms of fair play, than when a lapped (or about to be lapped) runner provides pacing help to a teammate (which is covered in the IAAF rules). Simple - a lapped runner can be at an advantage over the rest of the field in terms. A runner who takes the lead from the gun is not at any advantage over the rest of the field. So the difference is whether an athlete is getting pacing assistance from someone who has an inherent advantage or not. Big difference. You could argue that if El G. is able to convince a countryman to make the final and then sacrifice himself, then El G. is at an advantage. I would agree, but I also consider it perfectly acceptable advantage, just like having superior speed or strength is an advantage. I don't consider being paced by a lapped runner to be an acceptable advantage. Just my opinion - everyone's definition of fair play is different. One other note - even with lapped runners, it is difficult to actually prove collusion - witness the 1992 Olympic 10K as well as Louroupe's world record for the 1 hour run. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
Miguel Gonçalves wrote: but in a sport where new training methods, new shoes, new materials, new surfaces are quickly absorbed why not the new pharmacological innovations!? Why do we distrust so much science and all the sudden we want everyone to be clean! Many of the perfromancing enhancing pharmacological innovations have unacceptable health risks. If we give the green light to using the same, then we would be promoting self-destructive behavior. By maintaining the ban on drugs we discourage the proliferation of their use. Because some people will use drugs, although prohibited, no more invalidates the wisdom of discouraging drug use than does the fact that some people commit murder would invalidate the wisdom of discouraging murder as social policy. I suggest that the use of drugs has resulted in a great drop of interest in our sport because if one suspects the champion of winning on the virtue of illegal substances, what is there to cheer about in his or her win?
RE: altitude (was: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!
Air is remarkable stuff, particularly when its oxygen content becomes a factor. The effects may seem so slight as to be inconsequential, but they quickly add up. The oxygen content is never a factor for track meets, because it doesn't vary. The atmosphere is about 20% oxygen at sea level, and it's about 20% oxygen on top of Mt Everest. What varies with altitude is the air pressure, not the relative composition. At high altitude the air pressure is much less, and hence not so much oxygen (or nitrogen for that matter) is driven into solution in your blood where the red cells can pick it up and carry it. You can partially compensate for this by flooding the system with oxygen (i.e. breathing pure O2 through a mask), but overall the problem is not one of availability of oxygen per se, but of getting it into the blood with any efficiency. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
t-and-f: Suzy's thoughts about Edmonton and the rest of the season
Hi everyone, I have to admit, I'm not exactly in the mood to write about my running over the past couple weeks. It's been very frustrating, but Louis, the webmaster of my website thought it would be a good idea to let those who care know what's going on these days. The 10 days or so before Worlds, training was wonderful. I felt absolutely great. I arrived in Edmonton in a good frame of mind and in super shape. What more could I ask. I woke up the morning of the first round, went for a short run, and felt a little sluggish and heavy, just as I felt earlier in Eugene. During the warm up for the race, again, pretty sluggish, and in the race itself, I felt lousy, I mean really bad. I had been spiked in the race right on my kneecap, and it was tightening up on me. I spent that night wondering whether I would be able to compete the next day as my knee was not able to bend very well, and wondering whether I should compete due to the way I felt. We all just decided to see how I felt the next day. The next morning, I could barely move my leg. It was really stiff. I saw the team doctor and received some treatment and pain reliever. By race time, it was feeling pretty good, and in my warm up, I felt less sluggish. I was ready to give it a shot. I think I was a little more nervous for this race just because of the events of the previous 24 hours, but I wasn't out of control by any means. I was just a little unsure of myself. As the race progressed, I felt pretty good actually, and was just making a move to the front when someone fell around me and I almost went down. It knocked me off a few strides and I tried to catch back up, but realized that my legs had no turnover and I was tightening up. I knew this was not going to be good. I was asking for one of those crash and burn last laps and I did not want to go through another Sydney. I was panicking a bit and I thought the wise route was to pull up. My coach and manager thought based on how I looked at that point, it was the right thing to do. Louis has told me that I'm receiving some criticism by some about what I said after the race to the media, that I was saving myself for Zurich. I can promise you that in no way did I mean that the way some have interpreted it. I should have been more clear. I simply meant that I thought is was wise to avoid one of those crash and burn races like you saw me run in Sydney so that I could have a chance to be able to compete in a couple more races during the remainder of the season. Those last 400m were going to be a nightmare. That was something I did not want to go through again. A few days after Worlds, I experienced more bad news. I was practicing with Sarah Schwald, one of my training partners and experienced some problems. I had to stop in the middle of what was really a routine workout. I really don't remember any of it, but according to Sarah, I was delirious and looking terrible. I went to the doctor the next day and was diagnosed with what he thought was probably hypoglycemia. All concerned thought it was best I skip Zurich and see how things went in the upcoming days. I'm still uncertain whether I'm hypoglycemic or was just experiencing it's symptoms. Anyway, it's symptoms are the same as I was experiencing in Edmonton, and Eugene earlier this year as well as a couple of practices and races in past years. Maybe this discovery will help me in the future. I've been told I need to adjust my diet, concentrating on protein and smaller but more frequent meals, and avoiding sugars and carbos as much as I can. Yesterday, I left for Europe since my recent practices have been better. I don't feel incredible, but I feel pretty good. I plan on running in Brussels and the Goodwill Games and Grand Prix Final in Australia. I'm just going to take it one race at a time from here on out. Mark is not traveling with me on this trip, but We're meeting in LA on my return from Australia, then going on a vacation. Thanks to all for the support. I wish things could go a little easier sometimes. All my best! Suzy __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
RE: altitude (was: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!
You can partially compensate for this by flooding the system with oxygen (i.e. breathing pure O2 through a mask), but overall the problem is not one of availability of oxygen per se, but of getting it into the blood with any efficiency. Completely off the subject: About 10 years ago I dated an aerobics instructor and at her club they sold Oxygen canisters (tiny ones) that people would breathe the pure O2 in and supposedly supersaturate there bloodstream with O2 and give them a rush of energy for awhile. Seemed hedonistic and stupid to me. Anyway, once the WR's went 2 seconds faster than Cram, 15 seconds faster than Moorcroft and 35 seconds faster than Mamede at 3:27, 12:44 and 26:38 ... I started thinking about all the crazy ways someone could crack the formerly solid WR's ... Theoretically, you could warm-up well, breathe concentrated O2 for 60 seconds or so and then whip out to the start line and be ready to race ... Unless the saturation effect lasts longer than I think it does, it would never work though. The runners are usually held at the start area long enough in all races that the advantage would wear off.
Re: t-and-f: fastest or best?
Oleg Shpyrko wrote: Interesting to note, that the two other morrocans in the final - Adil Kaouch and Abdelkader Hachlaf - were by far the slowest two runners in the field - they had PR's of 3:34.38 and 3:36.02, and season's bests of 3:36.01 and 3:36.01 respectively. In fact, their seasons' best were full 2 seconds and some change slower than the next slowest runner (none other than Paul McMullen who ran 3:33.89) and probably almost 5 seconds slower than the average SB for the rest of the field. Considering how many 3:31 guys of the caliber of Mayock and Sullivan couldn't advance to the final, makes it even more amazing that those guys could. Yes, and Kaouche made the final back in '99, too, and Youssef Baba in 2000. Kaouche was only 20 when he made the final in '99, or possibly 19, depending on when his birthday is. To me, the fact that these guys (not Hachlaf, who didn't set any pace) are good enough *racers* to make the major championship final despite inferior best times makes it even sadder that they didn't run their own races once having reached the final. Cheers, Alan Shank
RE: altitude (was: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!
You could, of course, use O2 during training either with a max or a superoxegenated training room on a treadmill. This might allow one to do workouts previously not possible. It would be legal too. On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Mcewen, Brian T wrote: You can partially compensate for this by flooding the system with oxygen (i.e. breathing pure O2 through a mask), but overall the problem is not one of availability of oxygen per se, but of getting it into the blood with any efficiency. Completely off the subject: About 10 years ago I dated an aerobics instructor and at her club they sold Oxygen canisters (tiny ones) that people would breathe the pure O2 in and supposedly supersaturate there bloodstream with O2 and give them a rush of energy for awhile. Seemed hedonistic and stupid to me. Anyway, once the WR's went 2 seconds faster than Cram, 15 seconds faster than Moorcroft and 35 seconds faster than Mamede at 3:27, 12:44 and 26:38 ... I started thinking about all the crazy ways someone could crack the formerly solid WR's ... Theoretically, you could warm-up well, breathe concentrated O2 for 60 seconds or so and then whip out to the start line and be ready to race ... Unless the saturation effect lasts longer than I think it does, it would never work though. The runners are usually held at the start area long enough in all races that the advantage would wear off. *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: El Guerrouj / Chelimo
I'm simply noting that not long ago Chelimo was an athlete who was in full health. And today at 29 he is dead, he said. It's probably much more a case of Chelimo drinking way too much 'home brewed' alcohol than any drug use. Chelimo was a big time drinker and his choice of poison' unfortunately is oftern just that. Discussing Chelimo's death with Henry Rono on Saturday, Henry told me: 'If I had strayed in Kenya, I'd be dead too. First whiskey is too expensive, then beer is too expensive, but you can always get home made alcohol.' /Drew
RE: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
On that note, let me ask some questions that I have been asking myself regarding the drug situation in track and field .. Why are we testing ?? A: Too protect people from themselves and too make the sport fair for those who don't want to resort to drug use ... so they can theoretically compete on the oh-so-frequently-mentioned level playing field. Why are the substances that are on the banned list on the list ?? A: Because they aid you in athletics, or they are harmful to your health, usually both. Who is benefiting from the testing program ?? A: All athletes. They benefit by being protected from their own greed and their willingness to harm themselves in order to aid performance. Also those athletes who would prefer not to be forced to take drugs to compete. Who is being hurt by the testing program ?? A: See above. The testing program is so laughably bad that those same people are NOT protected from the things listed above. What has the sport gained from the testing program ?? A: See above. The program is so poor that it serves only as window-dressing and doesn't catch enough people obviously cheating. (See Ben Johnson admitting to drug use pre-1988, also see athletes who openly admitted to drug use, yet never tested positive). What has the testing program cost the sport ?? Is the sport fighting a self defeating and/or non-winnable fight ?? A: The glacial pace of adopting tests, the constant dragging their feet, the committees and finger-pointing, etc. that is what has ruined anything resembling winning the fight. Remind yourself: If 99% of athletes WERE using drugs, but only a handful were caught each year.. .. is this a travesty? Or is it just? If they are drug users ... and caught ... they are not scapegoats ... they are cheaters who were caught. I am in no way in favor of drug use .. However, I am definitely against those things which hurt the sport .. A: Want to stop things from hurting the sport? Start with the athletes who cheat. Stop them from cheating ... and no more black eye for the sport. If it is difficult, that doesn't mean you quit.
t-and-f: Job Opening
Neosho County CC is still looking for a field events coach. Please email me off list. Check out our website for further info. Yours in track, Mike Cunningham Head Track and Field/CC Coach Neosho County Community College (620) 431-2820 Ext. 272 www.neosho.cc.ks.us/athletic/track/track.htm _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, lehane wrote: Many of the perfromancing enhancing pharmacological innovations have unacceptable health risks. Arguably, so does competing clean at an elite level. It isn't healthy to break bones or tear muscles and ligaments. It isn't healthy to neglact friends and family in pursuit of training. It isn't healthy to become anorexic or suffer from psycholgical problems brought on fromt he stress of competing. When you are pushing your body to its limits you'ce already crossed over the lien of godo health. I'm not so sure these are any better than the risks associated with many banned drugs used under a docor's supervision. I suggest that the use of drugs has resulted in a great drop of interest in our sport because if one suspects the champion of winning on the virtue of illegal substances, what is there to cheer about in his or her win? Isn't this suspicion due to various governing bodies catching people from time to time? When was the last time anyone really thought about drug use in major sports? It's certainly higher than in track and field but people don't seem to care. Mark McGuire was caught using an anabolic steroid during his 70 home run season. It wasn't banned by baseball so no one cared much and in fact, it led to sales of the product in question goign through the roof. More strange is that many (if not most) of the things that are on the banned subsatnce list are things that are availible over the ocunter to non-athletes. If I can go and buy some steroids legally in the U.S., why can't athletes? In many countries, most steroids are legal without a prescription, yet athletes in those countries are banned from taking substances that are legal for their non-sporting countrymen. I agree that the rationale for banning substances is based on health concerns rather than ergogenic ones, but certainly under a doctor's supervision, many of them could be used without any significant side effects. Thsi is why Juan Antonio Samaranch argued for legalizing EPO and reviewing other drugs (hmm... a coincidence he is Spanish?). Paul
Re: t-and-f: Suzy's thoughts about Edmonton and the rest of the season
LS Some of the very fierce critics of SFH that are on this list will no doudt suggest her story is bogus in one way or another. But if it is even remotely close to how she has experienced the last few weeks, I think she should be congratulated on a very open and insightful account of some crucial weeks in the life of a top leve athlete. Regards, Wilmar Kortleever Louis LeBlanc schreef: Hi everyone, I have to admit, I'm not exactly in the mood to write about my running over the past couple weeks. It's been very frustrating, but Louis, the webmaster of my website thought it would be a good idea to let those who care know what's going on these days. The 10 days or so before Worlds, training was wonderful. I felt absolutely great. I arrived in Edmonton in a good frame of mind and in super shape. What more could I ask. I woke up the morning of the first round, went for a short run, and felt a little sluggish and heavy, just as I felt earlier in Eugene. During the warm up for the race, again, pretty sluggish, and in the race itself, I felt lousy, I mean really bad. I had been spiked in the race right on my kneecap, and it was tightening up on me. I spent that night wondering whether I would be able to compete the next day as my knee was not able to bend very well, and wondering whether I should compete due to the way I felt. We all just decided to see how I felt the next day. The next morning, I could barely move my leg. It was really stiff. I saw the team doctor and received some treatment and pain reliever. By race time, it was feeling pretty good, and in my warm up, I felt less sluggish. I was ready to give it a shot. I think I was a little more nervous for this race just because of the events of the previous 24 hours, but I wasn't out of control by any means. I was just a little unsure of myself. As the race progressed, I felt pretty good actually, and was just making a move to the front when someone fell around me and I almost went down. It knocked me off a few strides and I tried to catch back up, but realized that my legs had no turnover and I was tightening up. I knew this was not going to be good. I was asking for one of those crash and burn last laps and I did not want to go through another Sydney. I was panicking a bit and I thought the wise route was to pull up. My coach and manager thought based on how I looked at that point, it was the right thing to do. Louis has told me that I'm receiving some criticism by some about what I said after the race to the media, that I was saving myself for Zurich. I can promise you that in no way did I mean that the way some have interpreted it. I should have been more clear. I simply meant that I thought is was wise to avoid one of those crash and burn races like you saw me run in Sydney so that I could have a chance to be able to compete in a couple more races during the remainder of the season. Those last 400m were going to be a nightmare. That was something I did not want to go through again. A few days after Worlds, I experienced more bad news. I was practicing with Sarah Schwald, one of my training partners and experienced some problems. I had to stop in the middle of what was really a routine workout. I really don't remember any of it, but according to Sarah, I was delirious and looking terrible. I went to the doctor the next day and was diagnosed with what he thought was probably hypoglycemia. All concerned thought it was best I skip Zurich and see how things went in the upcoming days. I'm still uncertain whether I'm hypoglycemic or was just experiencing it's symptoms. Anyway, it's symptoms are the same as I was experiencing in Edmonton, and Eugene earlier this year as well as a couple of practices and races in past years. Maybe this discovery will help me in the future. I've been told I need to adjust my diet, concentrating on protein and smaller but more frequent meals, and avoiding sugars and carbos as much as I can. Yesterday, I left for Europe since my recent practices have been better. I don't feel incredible, but I feel pretty good. I plan on running in Brussels and the Goodwill Games and Grand Prix Final in Australia. I'm just going to take it one race at a time from here on out. Mark is not traveling with me on this trip, but We're meeting in LA on my return from Australia, then going on a vacation. Thanks to all for the support. I wish things could go a little easier sometimes. All my best! Suzy __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
RE: altitude (was: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!
On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, P.F.Talbot wrote: You could, of course, use O2 during training either with a max or a superoxegenated training room on a treadmill. This might allow one to do workouts previously not possible. It would be legal too. Now this is taxing my memory from a class taken 4 years ago, but if memory serves me, then you wouldn't gain much, if anything from this. There's a maximum rate at which oxygen can be trasported into the bloodstream across the membrane of the lungs. This means that at all atmospheric oxygen concentrations above the minimum needed to achieve this rate of transport, the extra oxygen is worthless to the runner. And if I remember correctly, sea level air already contains more than enough oxygen for maximum transport. Actual physiologists on the list are free to correct any erroneous recollections I may have. paul
RE: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
I am in no way in favor of drug use .. However, I am definitely against those things which hurt the sport .. A: Want to stop things from hurting the sport? Start with the athletes who cheat. Stop them from cheating ... and no more black eye for the sport. If it is difficult, that doesn't mean you quit. This made me stop and think. Why is it that a bunch of European aristocrats get to choose what is and what is not cheating? Who has input into the banned substances list? Do the athletes have any input at all? I wonder what the list would look like if there were an athletes union (which there probably should be for other reaosns)? Paul
t-and-f: where can I get a PDR subscription?
you know, Physicians Desk Reference, with thousands of pages of discussion of pharmacopia. If i'm going to read non-stop drug bullshit, it might as well be written by people who know what they're talking about. how about a charter amendment that we set aside one month a year in which people can babble about drugs, and the rest of the time let us talk about the sport itself? These nonstop testing threads make me wanna puke. do something constructive for the sport you supposedly love instead of dwelling on the bottom end. If i took the same view of everyday life that some of you do about the sport, I'd see nothing but disease, crime and poverty and I would've blown my brains out years ago. Enough gh
t-and-f: Marion the actress
while catching up on episodes of Arli$$ that aired while we were in Edmonton, found one where Ms. Jones had a significant speaking role. Guess what? She's not bad! Already in the 99th percentile of all athletes I've ever seen trying to display any thespian talents. Very believable delivery. gh
RE: t-and-f: where can I get a PDR subscription?
Garry Two Rs. Your insular life in the South Bay is much different from that of 90 percent of the worlds population. Disease, crime and poverty is the norm. malmo If i took the same view of everyday life that some of you do about the sport, I'd see nothing but disease, crime and poverty and I would've blown my brains out years ago. Enough gh
Re: t-and-f: Suzy's thoughts about Edmonton and the rest of theseason
on 20/8/01 7:51 PM, Louis LeBlanc at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, I have to admit, I'm not exactly in the mood to write about my running over the past couple weeks. It's Which Suzy is this? I assume Suzy Favor Hamilton but I can't be sure, could be Suzy Creamcheese (60's reference for all those old enough, although I assume from reading this list that most are current or recent college kids given the level or knowledge and argument). Please don't assume that everyone who receives this list are North Americans. Very arrogant assumption. Typical. Randall Northam
t-and-f: Herm Goftberg (sp?)passing
It was reported today on the local NPR radio that long time volunteer assistant at Penn State University and a member of the 1948 Olympic team, Herm Goftberg (sp) passed away on Friday. He had been under medical care for the past 10 or years or so for cancer. Herm was also a supporter of the later Barney Ewell, another '48 team member in London, and had befriended Barney towards the end of Barney's life. Herm had lived in England for many years and moved back to State College, where he participated in local road races and helped with the local youth club. Trey Jackson Assistant Coach - Track and Field Lebanon Valley College Annville, PA
t-and-f: USATF News Notes: August 20, 2001
Contact:Tom Surber Media Information Manager USA Track Field (317) 261-0500 x317 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.usatf.org USATF NEWS NOTES Volume 2, Number 73 August 20, 2001 Browne Glusac win USA Half-Marathon titles Dan Browne and Milena Glusac were victorious at the 2001 USA Half-Marathon Championships Saturday at Parkersburg, West Virginia. Browne used a strong finish to win the men's crown in 1:03:55, while Glusac captured her second USA road title of the year in 1:12:13. She also captured the 2001 U.S. 25k crown in May. Browne, who pocketed $6,000 for his victory, was followed across the finish line by Keith Dowling (2nd-1:03:59-$4,000), Scott Larson (3rd-1:04:22-$3,000), 2000 Olympic marathoner Rod DeHaven (4th-1:04:38-$1,500) and Chad Johnson (5th-1:04:46-$1,200). The top five men's finishers qualify for the USA Team for the 10th IAAF World Half-Marathon Championships in Bristol, England on October 7. Glusac, who won $6,000 on Saturday, controlled the women's race from the start and won easily over a talented field. I felt strong over this challenging course, said Glusac. I'm looking forward to returning to the World-Half Marathon Championships. Glusac placed tenth at last year's world championships (1:13:53) in Veracruz, Mexico. Top finishers in the women's competition included Sylvia Mosqueda (2nd-1:13:21-$4,000), Susannah Beck (3rd-1:14:29-$3,000), Monica Hostetler (4th-1:14:42-$1,500) and Alison Holinka (5th-1:15:14-$1,200). With the top three finishers qualifying for the U.S. team, Glusac, Mosqueda and Beck will represent the U.S. at the IAAF World Half-Marathon Championships. Montgomery wins again in Gateshead After a convincing victory last week at the Weltklasse meet in Zurich, 2001 World Championships silver medalist and 4x100m relay gold medalist Tim Montgomery won again on Sunday at the Norwich Union Classic IAAF Grand Prix II event in Gateshead, England. Montgomery crossed the finish line in 10.27 seconds (0.0 mps) to defeat Great Britain's Dwain Chambers, who finished second in 10.31. Montgomery's 4x100m relay teammates from Edmonton, J.J. Johnson (10.56) and Dennis Mitchell (10.80) were seventh and eighth respectively. Other U.S. winners on Sunday included Edmonton 100m bronze medalist and relay gold medalist Bernard Williams, who captured the 200 meters in Gateshead in 20.23 (0.0 mps). Kevin Little was third in 20.67. Larry Wade overcame a -1.6 mps headwind in winning the 110m hurdles in13.51. Dawane Wallace was third in 13.61 and 2000 Olympic silver medalist Terrence Trammell was fifth in 13.70. Highlighting the women's competition was Tonja Buford-Bailey and Sandra Glover, who swept the top two positions in the 400m hurdles. Buford-Bailey won the event in 54.77, with Glover second in 55.34. Additional U.S. performers in Gateshead were 2000 Olympic 400m hurdles gold medalist Angelo Taylor, who was second in the 400 meters in 45.09, Paul McMullen ninth in the 1,500m in 3:39.47, Tim Mack seventh in the pole vault (5.45 meters, 17 feet,10.75 inches) and Edmonton fourth-place finisher Breaux Greer was fifth in the javelin (84.08/275-10). Edmonton relay gold medalist Kelli White was fourth in the women's 100m in 11.57, and Monique Hennagan was fourth in the 300m in 36.52. Tiombe Hurd was sixth in the women's triple jump (13.77/45-2.25). Daniels joins Farm Team Dr. Jack Daniels, the head cross country coach at Cortland State University, will join the staff of the Farm Team in Palo Alto, California. Daniels will complete his current sabbatical in Palo Alto doing research and providing guidance for the group of post-collegiate distance runners in the Bay Area. Dr. Daniels is recognized internationally as a prominent exercise physiologist. His publications are widely used by long distance running coaches throughout the U.S. and around the world. Jack Daniels will be an outstanding addition to our coaching staff, said Farm Team Head Coach Frank Gagliano. He will provide me with valuable feedback as we raise the bar for distance and middle-distance running in this country. Dr. Daniels will establish an exercise physiology lab complete with treadmills and equipment to test the athletes on a regular basis at the Stanford Myofacial Institute. His eight-month term with the Farm Team will begin on January 1, 2002. Petrucci to represent U.S. at World University Games Discus thrower Nick Petrucci was selected to represent the U.S. Team on Monday in a torch relay prior to the beginning of the World University Games in Beijing, China. The torch relay, featuring an athlete from each participating nation, took place in Tiananmen Square. Petrucci is a two-time Big Sky Conference champion from Northern Arizona University. Olympian Herman Goffberg dies Herman Goffberg, who competed for the U.S. in the 10,000 meters at the 1948 Olympics in London, died Friday
RE: altitude (was: t-and-f: Let the USA bashing begin!
Since the same mass of air at 10,000 feet will occupy about 25% more volume, the same inhalation will have 25% less oxygen molecules it in. Which is, of course, what causes the lower partial pressure. My old physiology text book said it best: This decrease in barometric air pressure (at elevated altitude) is the basic cause of all the hypoxia problems in high altitude physiology, for any time the barometric air pressure decreases, the oxygen pressure decreases proportionately, remaining at all times slightly less than 21 percent of the total barometric air pressure. Medical Physiology by Arthur Guyton, 4th Edition It's true that a lungful of air will contain 25% fewer O2 molecules at some high altitude, but that is still not the direct problem. There is still not an actual shortage of oxygen. Breathing a lungful of air at any normal human altitude does not even come close to depleting all the oxygen - it's in excess. With 75% of the O2 still available, there is still enough to saturate the red blood cells if they could get hold of it. What is lacking is enough pressure (or density if you prefer) to drive the oxygen efficiently across the lung membranes and into the blood. Now if you go up high enough in the atmosphere, the air will get so thin that there is an actual shortage of oxygen. But at any altitude where a track meet might be held, there will always be excess oxygen in the air, but there might be insufficient pressure/density to get it into your blood very quickly. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
t-and-f: Gateshead Results
Gateshead results can be found at: http://www.iaaf.org/Results/index.asp?Filename=/gp01/index.html Kebba Tolbert ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) = Men's and Women's Jumps Multis Coach Syracuse University Track Field _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
RE: t-and-f: where can I get a PDR subscription?
In a message dated Mon, 20 Aug 2001 7:04:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, malmo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Garry Two Rs. Your insular life in the South Bay is much different from that of 90 percent of the worlds population. Disease, crime and poverty is the norm. and i bet they prefer to talk about happier stuff too. gh
t-and-f: Linz GP top 3
from sportserver.com (IAAF website probably has full results and wind readings) Monday's Linz GP results Men 100-1, Aziz Zakari, Ghana, 10.04 seconds. 2, Kim Collins, Saint Kitts-Navis, 10.10. 3, Christopher Williams, Jamaica, 10.11. 200-1, Shawn Crawford, United States, 20.46. 2, Kevin Little, United States, 20.57. 3, Jake Jenson, United States, 20.79. 110 hurdles-1, Anier Garcia, Cuba, 13.17. 2, Allen Johnson, United States, 13.20. 3, Dominique Arnold, United States,13.29. 400 hurdles-1, Pavel Januszewski, Poland 48.87. 2, Jiri Muzik, Czech Republic, 48.89. 3, Boris Gorban, Russia, 49.02. Mile-1, Isaac Songok, Kenya, 3:54.56. 2, Brian Berryhill, United States, 3:54.87. 3, Paul Mwangi, Kenya, 3:55.08. 3,000 steeplechase-1, Julius Ndoriah Nyamu, Kenya, 8:18.21. 2, Paul Koech, Kenya, 8:19.32. 3, Ralf Assmus, Germany, 8:21.27. Long jump-1, Savanthe Stringfellow, United States, 26-5 3/4. 2, Kareem Street-Thompson, United States, 26-1 1/2. 3,Sinisa Ergotic, Croatia, 25-11. Javelin-1, Boris Henry, Germany, 270-5. 2, Vladimir Ovshinnikov, Russia, 258-3. 3, Alexander Ivnov, Russia, 256-10. Women 100-1, Chryste Gaines, United States, 11.19. 2, LaTasha Jenkins, United States, 11,42. 3, Alenka Bikar, Slovenia, 11.53. 200-1, Debbie Ferguson, Bahamas, 22.72. 2, LaTasha Jenkins, United States, 22.79. 3, Beverly McDonald, Jamaica, 22.94. 800-1, Stephanie Graf, Austria, 1:58.86. 2, Zulia Calatayud, Cuba, 2:00.48. 3, Anita Braegger, Switzerland, 2:01.91. 4,Brigita Langerholc, Slovenia, 2:02.17. 3000-1, Ebru Kavaklioglu, Turkey, 8:52.20. 2, Olga Komyagina, Russia, 8:52,82. 3, Olga Rosseyeva, Russia, 8:55.51. 100 hurdles-1, Olga Shishigina, Kazakhstan, 12.77. 2, Jenny Adams, United States, 12.79. 3, Yelena Krasovskaya,Ukraine, 13.06. 400 hurdles-1, Nezha Bidouane, Morocco, 55.48. 2, Daimy Figueroa Pernia, Cuba, 56.06. 3, Brenda Taylor, UnitedStates, 57.20. Triple jump-1, Tereza Marinova, Bulgaria, 48-2 3/4. 2, Tatyana Lebedeva, Russia, 47-6 1/4. 3, Francoise Mbango,Cameroon, 46-1 1/2. Pole vault-1, Svetlana Feofanova, Russia, 14-9. 2, Doris Auer, Austria, 14-5 1/4. 3, Monika Pyrek, Poland, 14-5 1/4. Shot put-1, Astrid Kumbernuss, Germany, 62-2 1/4. 2, Connie Price-Smith, United States, 59-2 1/4. 3, Lieja Koeman, Netherlands, 59-1 1/2. Kebba Tolbert ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) = Men's and Women's Jumps Multis Coach Syracuse University Track Field From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: USATF News Notes: August 20, 2001 Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 18:52:30 EDT Contact:Tom Surber Media Information Manager USA Track Field (317) 261-0500 x317 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.usatf.org USATF NEWS NOTES Volume 2, Number 73 August 20, 2001 Browne Glusac win USA Half-Marathon titles Dan Browne and Milena Glusac were victorious at the 2001 USA Half-Marathon Championships Saturday at Parkersburg, West Virginia. Browne used a strong finish to win the men's crown in 1:03:55, while Glusac captured her second USA road title of the year in 1:12:13. She also captured the 2001 U.S. 25k crown in May. Browne, who pocketed $6,000 for his victory, was followed across the finish line by Keith Dowling (2nd-1:03:59-$4,000), Scott Larson (3rd-1:04:22-$3,000), 2000 Olympic marathoner Rod DeHaven (4th-1:04:38-$1,500) and Chad Johnson (5th-1:04:46-$1,200). The top five men's finishers qualify for the USA Team for the 10th IAAF World Half-Marathon Championships in Bristol, England on October 7. Glusac, who won $6,000 on Saturday, controlled the women's race from the start and won easily over a talented field. I felt strong over this challenging course, said Glusac. I'm looking forward to returning to the World-Half Marathon Championships. Glusac placed tenth at last year's world championships (1:13:53) in Veracruz, Mexico. Top finishers in the women's competition included Sylvia Mosqueda (2nd-1:13:21-$4,000), Susannah Beck (3rd-1:14:29-$3,000), Monica Hostetler (4th-1:14:42-$1,500) and Alison Holinka (5th-1:15:14-$1,200). With the top three finishers qualifying for the U.S. team, Glusac, Mosqueda and Beck will represent the U.S. at the IAAF World Half-Marathon Championships. Montgomery wins again in Gateshead After a convincing victory last week at the Weltklasse meet in Zurich, 2001 World Championships silver medalist and 4x100m relay gold medalist Tim Montgomery won again on Sunday at the Norwich Union Classic IAAF Grand Prix II event in Gateshead, England. Montgomery crossed the finish line in 10.27 seconds (0.0 mps) to defeat Great Britain's Dwain Chambers, who finished second in 10.31. Montgomery's 4x100m relay teammates from Edmonton, J.J. Johnson (10.56) and Dennis Mitchell (10.80) were seventh and eighth respectively. Other U.S. winners on Sunday included Edmonton 100m bronze medalist and relay gold medalist Bernard Williams, who captured the 200 meters in
Re: t-and-f: Suzy's thoughts about Edmonton and the rest of the season
Couldn't agree more and how many elite athletes would even attempt to let us know what went down. - Original Message - From: Wilmar Kortleever [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Louis LeBlanc [EMAIL PROTECTED]; TF List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 4:45 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Suzy's thoughts about Edmonton and the rest of the season LS Some of the very fierce critics of SFH that are on this list will no doudt suggest her story is bogus in one way or another. But if it is even remotely close to how she has experienced the last few weeks, I think she should be congratulated on a very open and insightful account of some crucial weeks in the life of a top leve athlete. Regards, Wilmar Kortleever Louis LeBlanc schreef: Hi everyone, I have to admit, I'm not exactly in the mood to write about my running over the past couple weeks. It's been very frustrating, but Louis, the webmaster of my website thought it would be a good idea to let those who care know what's going on these days. The 10 days or so before Worlds, training was wonderful. I felt absolutely great. I arrived in Edmonton in a good frame of mind and in super shape. What more could I ask. I woke up the morning of the first round, went for a short run, and felt a little sluggish and heavy, just as I felt earlier in Eugene. During the warm up for the race, again, pretty sluggish, and in the race itself, I felt lousy, I mean really bad. I had been spiked in the race right on my kneecap, and it was tightening up on me. I spent that night wondering whether I would be able to compete the next day as my knee was not able to bend very well, and wondering whether I should compete due to the way I felt. We all just decided to see how I felt the next day. The next morning, I could barely move my leg. It was really stiff. I saw the team doctor and received some treatment and pain reliever. By race time, it was feeling pretty good, and in my warm up, I felt less sluggish. I was ready to give it a shot. I think I was a little more nervous for this race just because of the events of the previous 24 hours, but I wasn't out of control by any means. I was just a little unsure of myself. As the race progressed, I felt pretty good actually, and was just making a move to the front when someone fell around me and I almost went down. It knocked me off a few strides and I tried to catch back up, but realized that my legs had no turnover and I was tightening up. I knew this was not going to be good. I was asking for one of those crash and burn last laps and I did not want to go through another Sydney. I was panicking a bit and I thought the wise route was to pull up. My coach and manager thought based on how I looked at that point, it was the right thing to do. Louis has told me that I'm receiving some criticism by some about what I said after the race to the media, that I was saving myself for Zurich. I can promise you that in no way did I mean that the way some have interpreted it. I should have been more clear. I simply meant that I thought is was wise to avoid one of those crash and burn races like you saw me run in Sydney so that I could have a chance to be able to compete in a couple more races during the remainder of the season. Those last 400m were going to be a nightmare. That was something I did not want to go through again. A few days after Worlds, I experienced more bad news. I was practicing with Sarah Schwald, one of my training partners and experienced some problems. I had to stop in the middle of what was really a routine workout. I really don't remember any of it, but according to Sarah, I was delirious and looking terrible. I went to the doctor the next day and was diagnosed with what he thought was probably hypoglycemia. All concerned thought it was best I skip Zurich and see how things went in the upcoming days. I'm still uncertain whether I'm hypoglycemic or was just experiencing it's symptoms. Anyway, it's symptoms are the same as I was experiencing in Edmonton, and Eugene earlier this year as well as a couple of practices and races in past years. Maybe this discovery will help me in the future. I've been told I need to adjust my diet, concentrating on protein and smaller but more frequent meals, and avoiding sugars and carbos as much as I can. Yesterday, I left for Europe since my recent practices have been better. I don't feel incredible, but I feel pretty good. I plan on running in Brussels and the Goodwill Games and Grand Prix Final in Australia. I'm just going to take it one race at a time from here on out. Mark is not traveling with me on this trip, but We're meeting in LA on my return from Australia, then going on a vacation. Thanks to all for the support. I wish things could go a little easier sometimes.
t-and-f: Q. MAI Galan in Malmo result?
Dear Listers: Does anyone have the result of MAI Galan in Malmo, Sweden held on Monday, 20 August? Thanks in advance. Regards, Yukito -- MURAKI Yukito, Prof. Coach Institute of Sport Science, University of Tsukuba Tel(O):+81-298-532648 Fax(O):+81-298-536507 Tel/Fax(H):+81-298-515575 Mobile:+81-90-14577251 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] --
Re: t-and-f: Re: Yegorova - the only enormous improver?
Why are we testing ?? A: Too protect people from themselves and too make the sport fair for those who don't want to resort to drug use ... so they can theoretically compete on the oh-so-frequently-mentioned level playing field. How does one define this level plaing field?? See original playing field question .. Why are the substances that are on the banned list on the list ?? A: Because they aid you in athletics, or they are harmful to your health, usually both. How do they aid ?? I've read on the list about how they help you train, but can that not be done just by hard work ?? And therefore would that not be considered a natural thing ?? Who is benefiting from the testing program ?? A: All athletes. They benefit by being protected from their own greed and their willingness to harm themselves in order to aid performance. Also those athletes who would prefer not to be forced to take drugs to compete. Is it not both provincial and arrogant of us to protect them from themselves ??? Who is being hurt by the testing program ?? A: See above. The testing program is so laughably bad that those same people are NOT protected from the things listed above. Then why are we doing it ??? What has the sport gained from the testing program ?? A: See above. The program is so poor that it serves only as window-dressing and doesn't catch enough people obviously cheating. (See Ben Johnson admitting to drug use pre-1988, also see athletes who openly admitted to drug use, yet never tested positive). Then why are we doing it ??? What has the testing program cost the sport ?? Is the sport fighting a self defeating and/or non-winnable fight ?? A: The glacial pace of adopting tests, the constant dragging their feet, the committees and finger-pointing, etc. that is what has ruined anything resembling winning the fight. Then why are we doing it ??? Remind yourself: If 99% of athletes WERE using drugs, but only a handful were caught each year.. .. is this a travesty? Or is it just? If they are drug users ... and caught ... they are not scapegoats ... they are cheaters who were caught. YOu know I keep watching people use the word cheaters .. Who gets to define the word cheater ?? Why is everyone so preoccupied with cheating .. And (playing Devil's advocate) is it cheating if everyone is doing it ??? And it seems to me that the crux of it all lies in the answers to the questions What is cheating ?? and What is a level playing field ?? Because apparently teh whole issue of drug testing seems to revovle around these ideals .. WE say that the program doesn't work .. That it may never work .. That individuals asre harmed by it .. That the sport is harmed by it .. YEt we somehow want to blindly continue in pursiut of these two apparently unatainable ideals ?? Are we not chasing windmills ??? And yet I would never advocate drug use .. I am in no way in favor of drug use .. However, I am definitely against those things which hurt the sport .. A: Want to stop things from hurting the sport? Start with the athletes who cheat. Stop them from cheating ... and no more black eye for the sport. If it is difficult, that doesn't mean you quit. See above ... Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
t-and-f: I'm a hypoglycemic, hypochondriac, transsexual, transvestite from Transylvania
None I hope, this stuff is suited for the Jerry Springer Show. malmo Couldn't agree more and how many elite athletes would even attempt to let us know what went down. - Original Message - From: Wilmar Kortleever [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Louis LeBlanc [EMAIL PROTECTED]; TF List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 4:45 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Suzy's thoughts about Edmonton and the rest of the season LS Some of the very fierce critics of SFH that are on this list will no doudt suggest her story is bogus in one way or another. But if it is even remotely close to how she has experienced the last few weeks, I think she should be congratulated on a very open and insightful account of some crucial weeks in the life of a top leve athlete. Regards, Wilmar Kortleever Louis LeBlanc schreef: Hi everyone, I have to admit, I'm not exactly in the mood to write about my running over the past couple weeks. It's been very frustrating, but Louis, the webmaster of my website thought it would be a good idea to let those who care know what's going on these days. The 10 days or so before Worlds, training was wonderful. I felt absolutely great. I arrived in Edmonton in a good frame of mind and in super shape. What more could I ask. I woke up the morning of the first round, went for a short run, and felt a little sluggish and heavy, just as I felt earlier in Eugene. During the warm up for the race, again, pretty sluggish, and in the race itself, I felt lousy, I mean really bad. I had been spiked in the race right on my kneecap, and it was tightening up on me. I spent that night wondering whether I would be able to compete the next day as my knee was not able to bend very well, and wondering whether I should compete due to the way I felt. We all just decided to see how I felt the next day. The next morning, I could barely move my leg. It was really stiff. I saw the team doctor and received some treatment and pain reliever. By race time, it was feeling pretty good, and in my warm up, I felt less sluggish. I was ready to give it a shot. I think I was a little more nervous for this race just because of the events of the previous 24 hours, but I wasn't out of control by any means. I was just a little unsure of myself. As the race progressed, I felt pretty good actually, and was just making a move to the front when someone fell around me and I almost went down. It knocked me off a few strides and I tried to catch back up, but realized that my legs had no turnover and I was tightening up. I knew this was not going to be good. I was asking for one of those crash and burn last laps and I did not want to go through another Sydney. I was panicking a bit and I thought the wise route was to pull up. My coach and manager thought based on how I looked at that point, it was the right thing to do. Louis has told me that I'm receiving some criticism by some about what I said after the race to the media, that I was saving myself for Zurich. I can promise you that in no way did I mean that the way some have interpreted it. I should have been more clear. I simply meant that I thought is was wise to avoid one of those crash and burn races like you saw me run in Sydney so that I could have a chance to be able to compete in a couple more races during the remainder of the season. Those last 400m were going to be a nightmare. That was something I did not want to go through again. A few days after Worlds, I experienced more bad news. I was practicing with Sarah Schwald, one of my training partners and experienced some problems. I had to stop in the middle of what was really a routine workout. I really don't remember any of it, but according to Sarah, I was delirious and looking terrible. I went to the doctor the next day and was diagnosed with what he thought was probably hypoglycemia. All concerned thought it was best I skip Zurich and see how things went in the upcoming days. I'm still uncertain whether I'm hypoglycemic or was just experiencing it's symptoms. Anyway, it's symptoms are the same as I was experiencing in Edmonton, and Eugene earlier this year as well as a couple of practices and races in past years. Maybe this discovery will help me in the future. I've been told I need to adjust my diet, concentrating on protein and smaller but more frequent meals, and avoiding sugars and carbos as much as I can. Yesterday, I left for Europe since my recent practices have been better. I don't feel incredible, but I feel pretty good. I plan on running in Brussels and the Goodwill Games and Grand Prix Final in Australia. I'm just going to take it one race at a time from here on out. Mark is not traveling with
t-and-f: Linz Meet Results
IAAF Grand Prix Gugl-Meeting Linz, 20-Aug-2001 RESULTS MEN 100 METRES Heat 1 - MEN Wind: -0.3 1 Zakari Abdul AzizGHA 10.12 2 Emedolu Uchenna NGR 10.29 3 Jensen Jake USA 10.48 4 Lewis Brian USA 10.50 5 Kwitt Roland AUT 10.67 100 METRES Heat 2 - MEN Wind: +0.0 1 Collins Kim SKN 10.22 2 Williams Christopher JAM 10.24 3 Crawford Shawn USA 10.26 4 Tilli StefanoITA 10.43 5 Clerc Patric SUI 10.61 6 Mitchell Dennis USA 10.69 7 Kummer Michael AUT 10.71 100 METRES - MEN Wind: +0.4 1 Zakari Abdul AzizGHA 10.04 2 Collins Kim SKN 10.10 3 Williams Christopher JAM 10.11 4 Emedolu Uchenna NGR 10.18 5 Crawford Shawn USA 10.21 6 Lewis Brian USA 10.40 7 Jensen Jake USA 10.42 Clerc Patric SUIDSQ 200 METRES - MEN Wind: +1.2 1 Crawford Shawn USA 20.46 2 Little Kevin USA 20.57 3 Jensen Jake USA 20.79 4 Osovych Sergiy UKR 20.84 5 Attene AlessandroITA 21.00 6 Niemi Shane CAN 21.01 7 Kwitt Roland AUT 21.28 8 Welz Hans-Peter AUT 21.39 MILE - MEN 1 Songok Isaac KEN3:54.56 2 Berryhill Bryan USA3:54.87 3 Mwangi Paul KEN3:55.08 4 de Souza Hudson Santos BRA3:55.10 5 Graffin Andrew GBR3:55.42 6 Keino Martin KEN3:58.08 7 Koech Benson KEN3:58.59 8 Shabunin Vyacheslav RUS4:00.24 9 Misoi Kipkirui KEN4:01.12 10 Khaldi Mohamed ALG4:01.66 11 Zorko Branko CRO4:06.60 12 Zegeye DanielETH4:09.01 13 Chékhémani AbdelkaderFRA4:09.66 14 Waldner Roland AUT4:10.61 15 Steindorfer Harald AUT4:15.56 Biwott Peter KENDNF Boukensa Tarek ALGDNF 3000 M STEEPLECHASE - MEN 1 Nyamu Julius KEN8:18.21 2 Koech Paul KEN8:19.32 3 Assmus Ralf GER8:21.27 4 Langat John KEN8:21.30 5 Kosgei John KEN8:32.38 6 Maffei Giuseppe ITA8:34.66 7 Stokes StuartGBR8:35.57 8 Kallabis Damian GER8:36.20 9 Zioini Badre Din FRA8:36.82 10 Gary Robert USA8:38.90 11 Green André GER8:40.73 12 Herman Bill USA8:58.86 Tarus Philip KENDNF GP 110 METRES HURDLES - MEN Wind: -0.2 Pts 1 García Anier CUB 13.17 5.0 2 Johnson AllenUSA 13.20 4.0 3 Arnold Dominique USA 13.29 3.0 4 Lichtenegger Elmar AUT 13.56 2.0 5 Hernández Yoel CUB 13.64 1.0 6 Hudec LeonardAUT 13.88 Videnov Zhivko BULDSQ 400 METRES HURDLES - MEN 1 Januszewski PawelPOL 48.87 2 Muzik Jirí CZE 48.89 3 Gorban Boris RUS 49.02 4 Woody Joey USA 49.13 5 Tamesue Dai JPN 49.23 6 Borsumato AnthonyGBR 49.72 7 Rawlinson ChristopherGBR 49.86 8 Kovács Dusán HUN 49.96 GP LONG JUMP - MEN Pts Wind 1 Stringfellow Savante USA 8.07 5.0 +2.3 2 Streete-Thompson Kareem CAY 7.96 4.0 +2.0 3 Ergotic Sinia CRO 7.90 3.0 +0.6 4 Beckford James JAM 7.85 2.0 +1.3 5 Marciniszyn Grzegorz POL 7.72 1.0 +0.4 6 Hagspiel Daniel
Re: t-and-f: RE: t-and-f: El G's pace in Zürich
Netters This statement: I believe Edmonton's altitude is about 2100 feet, not 1200. This is true and is equal to the Highest Point in WIsconsin, Known as Tim's Hill. There is NO effect on performance in either the sprints or distances at 2000 feet. The Air pressure is essentialy the same. Coming from a guy who lived at 9000 feet. Mike
Re: t-and-f: Herm Goffberg passing
Here is the obit for Herm Goffberg from the Centre Daily Times (State College PA) http://web.centredaily.com/content/centredaily/2001/08/20/sports_local/psuobit.htm Herm was a wonderful person and a great friend of athletics at all levels in our community. He worked the finish line at Penn State TF meets as recently as this spring and was present for the dedication of the new indoor track in honor of Horace Ashenfelter. Until his illness got the better of him, Herm was a fixture at the Penn State track, regularly putting in several miles a day and visiting with whomever happened to be hanging around while he was warming up or cooling down. No memorials have been announced as yet, but I would be happy to forward information to anyone who is interested when it becomes available. Bill Bahnfleth At 07:12 PM 8/20/01 -0400, Trey Jackson wrote: It was reported today on the local NPR radio that long time volunteer assistant at Penn State University and a member of the 1948 Olympic team, Herm Goftberg (sp) passed away on Friday. He had been under medical care for the past 10 or years or so for cancer. Herm was also a supporter of the later Barney Ewell, another '48 team member in London, and had befriended Barney towards the end of Barney's life. Herm had lived in England for many years and moved back to State College, where he participated in local road races and helped with the local youth club. Trey Jackson Assistant Coach - Track and Field Lebanon Valley College Annville, PA ___ William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E. Associate Professor Department of Architectural Engineering The Pennsylvania State University 224 Engineering Unit A University Park, PA 16802-1416 USA voice: (814)863-2076 / fax: (814)863-4789 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/faculty/bahnfleth.htm ___
Re: t-and-f: Altitude correction... opinion stands...
Netters Ed Dana Parrot writes: However, if a physical adaptation DOES occur, then it stands to reason that even with adaptation the times will be slower for distance runners. There is no biological impetus for acclimatization to occur. Nor is a week enough time for one to occur. Altitude acclimatization takes 3-5 weeks given an individual is in a hypoxic state for 48-72 hours and they have an EPO boost. Further I would like to point out for all you EPO critics my hematocrit, after one year of living at 9000 feet was 48 border line illegal in cycling. And you all better damn well believe I'm clean. Mike Rohl
Re: t-and-f: Linz GP top 3
Monday's Linz GP results 200-1, Shawn Crawford, United States, 20.46. 2, Kevin Little, United States, 20.57. 3, Jake Jenson, United States, 20.79. This is getting ridiculous. We may need to send the Texas high schoolers over there to shake things up! Dan = http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc. http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Suzy's thoughts about Edmonton and the rest of the season
Randall Northam, presumably not a North American, wrote: Please don't assume that everyone who receives this list are North Americans. Very arrogant assumption. Typical. Cripes Randall, isn't it a bit arrogant to imply that North Americans are typically arrogant? Couldn't you just have asked for clarification? David Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
