Re: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
Ed wrote: Maybe Entine is right ... we have no chance, and should just give up before we fall further behind. We have no chance of ever getting a 16 year old to go 8:19 or even a 19 year old to go 7:58. Yep, and no chance of ever getting someone to run 3:53, either. Never say never, just figure out what it's going to take and run like hell. As fans we can speculate on the difficulties, but I sure hope the athletes don't. You make Brian's point. A 3:53 is the equivalent of a 8:22+ steeple. A 7:58 steeple is the equivalent of a 3:43+ mile. Perhaps these comparisons might just put the WJR record in perspective. Regards, Martin
Re: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
Who was the last male junior beating a WR? I have a name but he didn't have the WJR! I think Moses Kiptanui (21) is the youngest recordholder in 3000m steeple (8.02.08-92). Hans-Erik Pettersson - Original Message - From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 8:58 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren Stephen Cherono (date of birth 15Oct82) set a world junior record in the 3000 steeple of 7:58.66 at Van Damme meet last Friday. I thought Raymond Yator's 2000 WJR of 8:03 for the Steeple would last a long, long time. But, they found a new faster junior in Kenya. I believe that 3.38secs/3000m (= 0.00113 secs/m) is the smallest difference in percentage terms between the WR and WJR for any running event, for men at least. If that same percentage difference could be achieved for other events, the WJR's would be: 100m: 9.90 400m: 43.63 800m: 1:42.00 1500m: 3:27.68 5k: 12:44.83 However, maybe teenagers can come closer to seniors in an undemanding event like the steeple. It's such a short race and those hurdles take so little out of you when you are just a kid. Maybe you don't need years of training to run 63's over the barriers for 8 min. UGH!
RE: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
Stephen Cherono (date of birth 15Oct82) set a world junior record in the 3000 steeple of 7:58.66 at Van Damme meet last Friday. Digging a little deeper, I checked the All-Time list for Juniors that I had in my file, printed off for 4/01/2000 and saw this: #1 8:07.69 Paul Kosgei (KEN) '97 #2 8:15.31 Ray Yator (KEN) '99 #3 8:16.76 Kipkurui Misoi (KEN) '97 #4 8:18.71 Julius Chelule (KEN) '97 #5 8:19.12 Stephen Cherono (KEN) '99 Given Cherono's date of birth (15Oct82), that means the Age 16 World Record (if there is such a thing) is 8:19.12. Unless any of the 4 names ahead of him were also 16 when they ran faster, or some other SIXTEEN YEAR OLD has run faster in the last year and a half. MAN THOSE KENYANS ARE GOOD! It is no wonder Cherono could crack 8:00-flat when he was already at 8:19 at just 16 years old. Most North Americans couldn't steeple a 9:40 at 16 years old. Maybe Entine is right ... we have no chance, and should just give up before we fall further behind. We have no chance of ever getting a 16 year old to go 8:19 or even a 19 year old to go 7:58.
RE: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
Who's to say that these Kenyans are actually 16-19? There's a reason why Kenyans tend to drop in times when they are in their mid 20s...1. Are actually probably 30 and not 25, 2. After so many years of top level running, whether you start at 16 or 20 you tend to fizzle out. Check road race results, the winning Kenyans are listed as early/mid 20s and only a few stay competitive after 30 whereas many Americans/Europeans stay competitive after 30. Even in marathon races in which you can still be very competitive in your 30s you still many Kenyans listed early/mid 20s. Kenyans start running at an earlier age, reach a top level, then end their careers at an earlier age compared to American/European runners. Cherono is young and has run a very fast time. That doesn't mean that with age he will run much faster. Entine is RIGHT in that overall in a large group the N./ E. Africans will produce faster runners, but he is DEAD WRONG in stating that an American/European will NEVER win a major marathon or gold medal...that statement is just plain ignorant on his part and he only states it to reap the rewards of further book sales. There can and will always be the select few Americans/Europeans that can and will achieve the heights he says is impossible, but as a group the N. / E. Africans are better. Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 Maybe Entine is right ... we have no chance, and should just give up before we fall further behind. We have no chance of ever getting a 16 year old to go 8:19 or even a 19 year old to go 7:58. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
RE: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
Who's to say that these Kenyans are actually 16-19? Right. I know this. Supposedly Moses Kiptanui is 30 right now ... but he hasn't been near his best in years ... that is because he is NOT 30. Ditto for Kirui and Haile Gebrselassie. The same goes for most of the African who were World Junior Champions in the last decade. They are entered in the WJChamps because they need experience at the elite level ... whereas the athletes from the developed countries enter athletes because they need developmental experience for the elite level. Some people say that they reach their peak faster than those outside East-Africa ... that is crap. Before the domination of distance running by Africa occurred, there were many great Africans who ran for 10-12 years at a high level or at least well into their 30's (Mike Boit, kip Keino, Miruts Yifter, Kedir, Nyambui, Filbert Bayi, Wolde). I have been described as cynical to a fault ... my post on the WJR was supporting that perception ... it was pure sarcasm. NEVER, EVER GIVE UP on anything! -Original Message- From: alan tobin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 12:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren Who's to say that these Kenyans are actually 16-19? There's a reason why Kenyans tend to drop in times when they are in their mid 20s...1. Are actually probably 30 and not 25, 2. After so many years of top level running, whether you start at 16 or 20 you tend to fizzle out. Check road race results, the winning Kenyans are listed as early/mid 20s and only a few stay competitive after 30 whereas many Americans/Europeans stay competitive after 30. Even in marathon races in which you can still be very competitive in your 30s you still many Kenyans listed early/mid 20s. Kenyans start running at an earlier age, reach a top level, then end their careers at an earlier age compared to American/European runners. Cherono is young and has run a very fast time. That doesn't mean that with age he will run much faster. Entine is RIGHT in that overall in a large group the N./ E. Africans will produce faster runners, but he is DEAD WRONG in stating that an American/European will NEVER win a major marathon or gold medal...that statement is just plain ignorant on his part and he only states it to reap the rewards of further book sales. There can and will always be the select few Americans/Europeans that can and will achieve the heights he says is impossible, but as a group the N. / E. Africans are better. Alan http://www.geocities.com/runningart2004 Maybe Entine is right ... we have no chance, and should just give up before we fall further behind. We have no chance of ever getting a 16 year old to go 8:19 or even a 19 year old to go 7:58. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
RE: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
In a message dated Wed, 29 Aug 2001 2:44:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The same goes for most of the African who were World Junior Champions in the last decade. They are entered in the WJChamps because they need experience at the elite level ... whereas the athletes from the developed countries enter athletes because they need developmental experience for the elite level. This is all well and good, but makes me wonder how the Kenyans and Ethiops can dominate the Senior ranks without first having good Juniors. What magical process do they undergo after they leave their teen years that turns them into ass-kicking machines? Of course their BD machinery doesn't meet our standards, but to assume the only reason they're good as Juniors is because they aren't really is ludicrous to the max. Ask somebody who has actually been into Nandi territory and ask them what they've seen in terms of talented little kids scooting around the countryside. We're talkin a different breed of cat here, as Dennis Miller would say. gh
Re: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
Maybe Entine is right ... we have no chance, and should just give up before we fall further behind. We have no chance of ever getting a 16 year old to go 8:19 or even a 19 year old to go 7:58. Yep, and no chance of ever getting someone to run 3:53, either. Never say never, just figure out what it's going to take and run like hell. As fans we can speculate on the difficulties, but I sure hope the athletes don't. - Ed Parrot
RE: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
This is all well and good, but makes me wonder how the Kenyans and Ethiops can dominate the Senior ranks without first having good Juniors. What magical process do they undergo after they leave their teen years that turns them into ass-kicking machines? OF COURSE they have good juniors (as in actual guys/girls who have lived less than 20 years), and they are likely better than the rest of the world's juniors, just like they are in senior competition. They have the best 19, 24, and 28 year old runners in the world. They ARE a different breed of cat. It's just that the ones you see winning the junior championships in XC and track are not actually 19. Tell me that you believe a 16 year old can run 8:19 or 27:43 (as the records would have you believe) and I will shut up ... there won't be any point in going on with it.
Re: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
Brian wrote: MAN THOSE KENYANS ARE GOOD! It is no wonder Cherono could crack 8:00-flat when he was already at 8:19 at just 16 years old. Most North Americans couldn't steeple a 9:40 at 16 years old. Maybe Entine is right ... we have no chance, and should just give up before we fall further behind. We have no chance of ever getting a 16 year old to go 8:19 or even a 19 year old to go 7:58. But how long do they last in the sport .. They seem to peak very early .. At the top for a brief moment .. And then the next in line takes their place .. My point is this .. We may not get any 16 year olds to go 8:19 .. Nor 19 year olds to go 7:58 .. But that doesn't mean we give up nor that the fight has been lost .. Our goal it would seem would be to get 25 year olds to 8:10 and then 28/29 year olds to 7:58 .. Not that would be more plausible .. And make us competitive .. Everyone has to work to their strengths .. With the Kenyans it seems to be brilliance at an early age .. We may have to stay in the sport longer in order to achieve the same level of success .. Conway Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
I believe I have mentioned this quote before. It is directly from John Korir (if you don't know who he is... do a search) We have our real age and then the age we tell the white man That and if you ask him what his age is on one day he responds with: Today I feel very good. Today I am 19 If you ask him the next day he may say something like this: My body is getting old, today I am 35 These were not made up. Mike From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:53:01 -0400 This is all well and good, but makes me wonder how the Kenyans and Ethiops can dominate the Senior ranks without first having good Juniors. What magical process do they undergo after they leave their teen years that turns them into ass-kicking machines? OF COURSE they have good juniors (as in actual guys/girls who have lived less than 20 years), and they are likely better than the rest of the world's juniors, just like they are in senior competition. They have the best 19, 24, and 28 year old runners in the world. They ARE a different breed of cat. It's just that the ones you see winning the junior championships in XC and track are not actually 19. Tell me that you believe a 16 year old can run 8:19 or 27:43 (as the records would have you believe) and I will shut up ... there won't be any point in going on with it. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
From: Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] year olds to go 7:58 .. But that doesn't mean we give up nor that the fight has been lost .. Our goal it would seem would be to get 25 year olds to 8:10 and then 28/29 year olds to 7:58 .. Not that would be more plausible .. And make us competitive .. I understand what you mean, but to me our goal should be to get athletes to 7:58 or faster at any age. who cares if they're 19, 21, 23, or 25? Again, no one balks when 20-23 yr olds run 44-low, 20.1-20.2, 10.10 or faster. the focus should be on getting our athletes to finals of MAJOR meets with a chance to medal. Kebba Tolbert ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) = Men's and Women's Jumps Multis Coach Syracuse University Track Field _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
I agree. I had a teammate that loved to say how Jim Ryan had peaked by his early 20s and ndver got any better, so he wasn't that great. My retort was who cares when his peak was? The guy was a WR holder and the best of his time. If Alan Webb peaks in 2008, breaks an AR along the way and medals at the Olympics and WCs, are we going to look back at his career as a failure because he was on his way down at age 25 or 26? No! Or at least I won't. M From: Kebba Tolbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Kebba Tolbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 16:11:02 -0400 From: Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED] year olds to go 7:58 .. But that doesn't mean we give up nor that the fight has been lost .. Our goal it would seem would be to get 25 year olds to 8:10 and then 28/29 year olds to 7:58 .. Not that would be more plausible .. And make us competitive .. I understand what you mean, but to me our goal should be to get athletes to 7:58 or faster at any age. who cares if they're 19, 21, 23, or 25? Again, no one balks when 20-23 yr olds run 44-low, 20.1-20.2, 10.10 or faster. the focus should be on getting our athletes to finals of MAJOR meets with a chance to medal. Kebba Tolbert ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) = Men's and Women's Jumps Multis Coach Syracuse University Track Field _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
Re: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Kebba Tolbert wrote: I understand what you mean, but to me our goal should be to get athletes to 7:58 or faster at any age. who cares if they're 19, 21, 23, or 25? Again, no one balks when 20-23 yr olds run 44-low, 20.1-20.2, 10.10 or faster. the focus should be on getting our athletes to finals of MAJOR meets with a chance to medal. To underscore Kebba's point, wasn't Steve Lewis 19 when he won Olympic Gold in the 400m? If he was really 30, UCLA sure sneaked one past the NCAA. Paul
RE: t-and-f: Cherono almost catches Lindgren
Stephen Cherono (date of birth 15Oct82) set a world junior record in the 3000 steeple of 7:58.66 at Van Damme meet last Friday. I thought Raymond Yator's 2000 WJR of 8:03 for the Steeple would last a long, long time. But, they found a new faster junior in Kenya. I believe that 3.38secs/3000m (= 0.00113 secs/m) is the smallest difference in percentage terms between the WR and WJR for any running event, for men at least. If that same percentage difference could be achieved for other events, the WJR's would be: 100m: 9.90 400m: 43.63 800m: 1:42.00 1500m: 3:27.68 5k: 12:44.83 However, maybe teenagers can come closer to seniors in an undemanding event like the steeple. It's such a short race and those hurdles take so little out of you when you are just a kid. Maybe you don't need years of training to run 63's over the barriers for 8 min. UGH!
