t-and-f: WAVA elections uncontested in 2001
Greetings, all I've learned that only one elective office will be contested at the Brisbane General Assembly -- the biennial meeting of voting delegates during the World Veterans Athletic Championships in July. So far, the only race is for vice president (stadia) between incumbent Jim Blair of New Zealand and WAVA Web site webmaster Rex Harvey of the United States. (Rex also holds a regional WAVA post, some committee assignments as well as positions in USATF Masters.) This means that WAVA President Torsten Carlius, Executive Vice-President Tom Jordan, General Secretary Monty Hacker, Vice President (Non-Stadia) Ron Bell, Treasurer Giuseppe Galfetti and women's representative Bridget Cushen are going unopposed in an organization nominally devoted to robust competition. This must mean that everything's hunky-dory in Mastersland. Or maybe not. Perhaps word hasn't circulated far enough that WAVA's election will be more of a coronation. But time is short for any would-be candidates. Under WAVA rules, nominations for Council candidates have to be in the hands of the WAVA secretary at least 90 days before the General Assembly, which this year appears to be July 11, 2001 -- a rest day in the WAVA meet program. (Nominations from the floor are technically possible, but they appear to be at the discretion of the presiding officer.) This means that the deadline for anyone wanting to run for WAVA office at Brisbane is April 14 -- about 10 days from now. Elections are held every four years, and no officer can hold the same office for more than two terms. Any affiliate of WAVA can submit a nomination for office. (An affiliate is a national governing body -- USATF in the case of America.) WAVA shouldn't be an IAAF-like oligarchy, but without some competitive races, it appears the Old Boys Club continues to rule WAVAland. I'm not saying any of the current crop of officers has done a poor job (although I have my doubts on certain issues), but the legitimacy of an organization is proportional to its willingness to foster debate and encourage new blood. Right now, I see little of this in WAVA. Also, FYI: WAVA webmaster Harvey has just posted the minutes of the September 2000 meeting of the WAVA Stadia Committee -- the group in charge of the nuts and bolts of the world vets meet in Brisbane. These minutes are posted at: http://www.wava.org/committees/stadia%20committee/00stadia%20committee%20minut es.htm And they are QUITE revealing. Sprinters, jumpers and throwers all have something to chew on. Please review these minutes and keep yourself informed on what WAVA is doing for and to masters athletes. It's the governing body of OUR sport. Might as well know what it's up to. Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com
Re: t-and-f: more on prep records...
In a message dated 4/4/01 12:03:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There have been dozens or even hundreds of kids over the years who were capable of breaking 9:00, but few of them run it." Uh, I don't think so. So, like the marathon, and possibly even the 10K, it will never be broken unless a top runner chooses to it. How many sub 8:50 2-milers have tried the 3000SC in the past 10 years? I don't know if any of them tried the steeplechase, but there have only been ten sub-8:50 prep 2-milers since 1980! Walt Murphy
Re: t-and-f: Records
Maybe ... Must remember that the 2 most prolific teams ever were the Roy Martin teams of Texas and the Thomas anchored Hawthorne teams ... Both of these kids ran sub 45 anchors in high school ... Hawthorne's "average" is under 47 ... Hawthorne also had Mike Marsh who was state 200 champion in Thomas' absence (hernia surgery at the last minute) in 20.80 ... as well as a 36.xx 300 hurdler ... It was really the equivalent of an all star team ... The likes of which may never be seen again at a single school ... Now a Texas or California all star team could certainly give it a push ... But will be very hard for a "regular" high school to do ... Conway 4 x 400 - 3:07.40 - Hawthorne 1986 Conway, I think this one can go down if some of the Texas and Cali teams geared toward it. Obea Moore and crew approached it several times but just couldn't get it. I remember them running 3:08-3:09 at Penn with two injured runners. Larry A. Morgan, Sr. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
t-and-f: Snowbird Invitational, March 17?
Can someone please tell me where to find the results of the Snowbird Invitational held at the weekend of March 17? Thank you. Winfried Kramer Kohlrodweg 12 66539 Neunkirchen/Germany Association of Track Field Statisticians Editor of NATIONAL ATHLETICS RECORDS www.saar.de/~kramer
Re: t-and-f: Records
Ed wrote: To me, the shot put and the 10,000 are the two records that are most out of reach on that list, with the mile and the 4 x 400 next. I think there's every chance that we'll see the 2 mile and 5K fall in the next 5 years, while the 400m is the type of event where I can see some stud coming along and scaring the record. As for the marathon, there have definitely been high schoolers capable of the record, it's just a question of whether it will ever be run by someone of that caliber again. Certainly Ryan Hall's sub 50:00 10-miler is indicative of the ability to run 2:23. Out of curiosity, what do 2nd and third places on the all-time 10K and shot put list look like? On the 10,000 list 2 3 are also from 76 and #4 is Lindgren #2 28:55.0 - Eric Hulst #3 29:06.8 - Bill McChessney #4 29:17.6 - Lindgren As for the shot put #2 is 76'2" by Brent Noon from 1990 ... I was fortunate enough to be at the Golden West when Carter set that record .. When he let the ball fly it went past every flag laid out (meet record, national record, etc) and just looked like it would sail forever ... Was one of the most awesome sights I have seen in track AND field ... Conway _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: more on prep records...
GM wrote: insignificant as this discussion must seem to our non-U.S. listers, it does raise some interesting discussion! some other HS marks that may be tough to beat: --Roy Martin's 20.13 for 200m; the closest someone has gotten in the 16 years since it was set? 20.46 in 1990 by Henry Neal. I thought about putting Martin's 20.13 on the list ... But a Texas kid, Brendan Christian, set the indoor record this year at 21.02 and is only a junior ... He ran 20.78 last year as a soph .. So I would say barring injuries he would have a chance to break it in the next two seasons (this one and next) ... Conway _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
RE: t-and-f: Records (HS marathon)
Brad Hudson used to do Sunday runs almost that fast. malmo Yeah ... add to it that Pfeffer has the AJR at 2:17:44 (I think), and all you need is a HS'er who trains seriously for the 5k/10k and tries one of the faster marathons in the Fall after XC is over, or Grandma's after State meet is over or something. All due respect to Clancy Devery, but consider what guys from the same HS era could have done in the marathon ... guys like Salazar, Chapa, and Chris Fox ... or Bill McChesney, who went 29:27 as a 10th grader. What they COULD have done is irrelevant ... but it is clear that there are (and will be) runners that could go sub-2:23. international women run 30:30-31:00 frequently in the 10k, then run 2:21-25 for 26.2. Think there are some 30:30 HS 10k runners? And regarding the other "fairly unapproachable" records: * 10,000 - 28.32.7 - Rudy Chapa 1976- Good for another 25 years! * 5,000 - 13.44.0 - Gerry Lindgren 1964 - Chance to go THIS YEAR, but nobody has been within ten seconds in 20 years, it could last another 25 years as well. * 2 Miles - 8:36.3 - Jeff Nelson 1979 - broken THIS year. * Mile 3:55.3 - Jim Ryun 1965 - NOT broken for another 35 years, there is a reason he has the FIVE-fastest marks ever. -Brian -Original Message- From: malmo [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 8:33 PM To: Tom Jimenez; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Records Brad Hudson used to do Sunday runs almost that fast. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Tom Jimenez Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 5:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Records Marathon Jr. record: Gompers - 2:15:28 / Dec 83 Prep record that will last: Marathon; Clancy Devery (S Salem HS) - 2:23:05 / 1977 T Jimenez Salem, OR. BTW- I played baskteball with Clancy in 1978 and while he could get to every rebound tirelessly, he wasn't a very good shot. But a great guy.
RE: t-and-f: Record duration
I remember the belief that Clayton's time may not be a true 2:08 ... it persisted right up until Salazar ran 2:08:13. But, didn't Clayton own the CR at Fukuoka with a 2:09:36 or 2:09:46 or in the mid-2:09's? I believe he set it in 1969 and the course was the same one that was used in the years before and after 1969. That would have qualified for the WR for a few years anyway (without the doubtful 2:08:37). I think it would have been the WR until Ian Thompson's 2:09:12. This is from memory though, not a world list or record progression. Re: the training of Clayton. Ed parrot is right. It was my understanding that Clayton ran 25 miles in about 2:18, close to a 2:25 marathon, almost every week of the year. Even faster than that some weeks. -Brian -Original Message- From: Ed Dana Parrot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:31 PM To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) Subject: Re: t-and-f: Record duration gh wrote: I don't know how modern marathon statisticians view Clayton's time, but there was certainly no end of skepticism about course length for many years after we ran it, and there's no doubt that course-measuring techniques and requirements weren't remotely as effective then as now. Given that a couple of decades worth of studs the caliber of Shorter and Cierpinski couldn't take the mark down would add some credence to the claims of the naysayers, although it may well be that the Antwerp course (anybody know it?) was just the precursor of the modern flat speedways that make sub-2:10s so easy, while Shorter Co. were putting out their best efforts on more difficult routes. You may be right. However, my understanding is that few in the 1960's and even into the 1970's did mileage at the kind of pace that Clayton did (if his book is to be believed). Certainly Shorter, Rodgers, etc were not running easy, but I don't think they were running 100 of their 140+ miles at 5:10 pace or faster. - ed Parrot
t-and-f: the oldest HS record... and the softest?
Paradoxically it seems the oldest HS record might be one of the softest. Last winter Webb ran 2:23.68 indoor HSR for 1000 meters. The outdoor version is almost 2 seconds slower, 2:25.55. It might have something to do with when it was run: Aug 10... 1957! (Wonder if Webb's father had been born when that record was set.) Marty Post Senior Editor Runner's World Magazine www.runnersworld.com
Re: t-and-f: more on prep records...
Justin: I believe Derrick Florence is the name you are looking for (10.13 100m) Does bring back some memories, indeed. In particular, of the magical nights at the Texas State Meet in 1985 with Roy Martin, Joe Deloach and Stanley Kerr cranking out some of the best prep deuces in history... in different divisions! Anyone else there that night who is willing to share their recall? By the way... the only non-Texan to crack that group on the '85 national list is also the only one still active as an elite athlete... name, anyone?
RE: t-and-f: Record duration
Clayton ran 2:09:36.4 at Fukuoka in Dec. '67 (back in those days, timing folks followed long-standing track protocols which recorded times in even-tenths of a second.) His 2:08:33.6 at Antwerp was on May 30, 1969. The first non-Antwerp time better than the Fukuoka mark was Ron Hill's 2:09:29 at the 1970 Commonwealth Games in Edinburgh. Thompson's 2:09:12 was at the '74 Commonwealth Games in Christchurch. -Original Message- From: Mcewen, Brian T [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:03 AM To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) Subject: RE: t-and-f: Record duration I remember the belief that Clayton's time may not be a true 2:08 ... it persisted right up until Salazar ran 2:08:13. But, didn't Clayton own the CR at Fukuoka with a 2:09:36 or 2:09:46 or in the mid-2:09's? I believe he set it in 1969 and the course was the same one that was used in the years before and after 1969. That would have qualified for the WR for a few years anyway (without the doubtful 2:08:37). I think it would have been the WR until Ian Thompson's 2:09:12. This is from memory though, not a world list or record progression. Re: the training of Clayton. Ed parrot is right. It was my understanding that Clayton ran 25 miles in about 2:18, close to a 2:25 marathon, almost every week of the year. Even faster than that some weeks. -Brian -Original Message- From: Ed Dana Parrot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:31 PM To: 't-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail) Subject: Re: t-and-f: Record duration gh wrote: I don't know how modern marathon statisticians view Clayton's time, but there was certainly no end of skepticism about course length for many years after we ran it, and there's no doubt that course-measuring techniques and requirements weren't remotely as effective then as now. Given that a couple of decades worth of studs the caliber of Shorter and Cierpinski couldn't take the mark down would add some credence to the claims of the naysayers, although it may well be that the Antwerp course (anybody know it?) was just the precursor of the modern flat speedways that make sub-2:10s so easy, while Shorter Co. were putting out their best efforts on more difficult routes. You may be right. However, my understanding is that few in the 1960's and even into the 1970's did mileage at the kind of pace that Clayton did (if his book is to be believed). Certainly Shorter, Rodgers, etc were not running easy, but I don't think they were running 100 of their 140+ miles at 5:10 pace or faster. - ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Sanchez - New US Junior 5000 record?
Netters I just realized that I wrote that Sanchez and Ritz had a chance at Chapa's H.S. 10k record. And of course Sanchez is already out of H.S.. I was thinking Junior Record. Ritz, I would think, has a shot still. Sorry for my error.
t-and-f: Track Coach Magazine
Track Coach (formerly Track Technique) is the official technical (some articles) quarterly of USA Track and Field and has been the sport's major publication since 1960. It was founded by Fred Wilt in an effort to make technical and practical information available to American coaches. Wilf Paish, from the United Kingdom, an International Athletics Consultant, considers Track Coach "...the only publication of its kind which seems to achieve the right balance of articles directed at skill and training methods together with regular research items and those written by 'armchair' coaches." Currently edited by Russ Ebbets, who is trying to include a wide variety of articles with appeal to many levels, this quarters publication includes the following: Athlete Profile: The Emergence of Ryan Hall by Irv Ray, California Baptist University. An article on the development of an excellent high school runner. High Jump: Technical Aspects by Steve Patrick, Track and Field Coach, SUNY Cobleskill. Editor's note: A clear, easy-to-follow discussion of the approach, takeoff, and bar clearance, the three basic components of the HJ. Quis Custodiat Ipsos Custodes? (Who educates the educators?) by Wilf Paish. Editors note: If you thought that Coaching Education in Britain is a model for the world, here is a dissenting opinion from an observer who likes to shake things up a bit. Non-British readers will find his remarks, which bear in large degree upon the coach's management of time, apply to most coaching situations. Muscle Fiber Types and Training by Jason R. Karp, MS. Editor's note: The author describes the three types of muscle fiber and discusses their implications for the training of athletes. An interview with Ruth Wysocki by the editor, Russ Ebbets. The editor asks one of America's outstanding middle distance runners for her perspectives on her own development, mistakes, role models, philosophy, difficulties for women athletes, how to improve our national effort, goals and progression, tips for traveling and competing in Europe, peaking patterns and others. You Need a Needs Analysis by John Cissick. Editor's note: "Needs Analysis" refers to the work that is done before writing out an athlete's annual plan. This is the period of time when a coach systematically decides what the athlete need to develop and prioritizes those qualities for the upcoming plan. This article will describe how to examine an event's needs and then how to figure out how the athlete measures up to those needs. A Psychological Application for Distance Runners, by Scott Christensen, Stillwater (MN) Senior High School. Editor's note: (The author) describes the DALDA, a stress awareness test he administered during distance champion Luke Watson's senior year. ...it can be a very useful tool for both the coach and athlete in assessing an athlete's mental and physical state at any given time, indicating which areas of stress require immediate attention. World Roundup, by Jess Jarver. Digests of articles from around the world. The digests this month include: Strength Development in endurance athletes. (Estonia) Riddles of the 100m Sprint (Russia) Are Sports Drinks Worth the Money? (Australia) Periodization of Technique Training. (in the Thrower, Great Britain) And six more Information on when and where to attend USATF Level II Coaches Schools. You can subscribe by writing Track and Field News, 2570 El Camino Real, Suite 606, Mountain View, CA 94040 USA. (650) 948-8188. FAX (650) 948-9445. www.trackandfieldnews.com http://www.trackandfieldnews.com Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm not associated with USATF or Track and Field News, but hope that this information will put some new and developing coaches and athletes in touch with another source of information. Also I'm sure many of you as coaches could share useful information about your athletes and track and field programs that would be useful to other coaches. Such articles can be submitted to the above address. One of Fred Wilt's best liked sections was a "How They Train". Share how one of your outstanding athletes trained for an event. Sharing this type of information will make everyone's program stronger and strengthen our national program in the long term. Craig
t-and-f: Fullerton humor
Dwight Perry of the Seattle Times wrote, "When Cal State Fullerton kicked Leilani Rios off the Titan track club for dancing in a strip joint, it supplied a whole new meaning for the hackneyed term 'thinclad.' " gh ps--does anybody but a an over-40 sportswriter actually use the term "thinclad" anymore?
RE: t-and-f: Records (HS marathon)
In a message dated Wed, 4 Apr 2001 9:57:39 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Mcewen, Brian T" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yeah ... add to it that Pfeffer has the AJR at 2:17:44 (I think), and all you need is a HS'er who trains seriously for the 5k/10k and tries one of the faster marathons in the Fall after XC is over, or Grandma's after State meet is over or something. -Brian NO!!! This is precisely what is wrong with American marathoning! You can't just train for the 5K/10K, add a few long runs, and then run a good marathon. You have to train specifically for the 42.195K. You can have a period where you do 5K/10K training and racing, but you need a good 3 months of marathon-specific work. sideshow
Re: t-and-f: more on prep records...
Does anyone out there have the 85 sprint lists handy ?? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: more on prep records... Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:29:39 EDT Justin: I believe Derrick Florence is the name you are looking for (10.13 100m) Does bring back some memories, indeed. In particular, of the magical nights at the Texas State Meet in 1985 with Roy Martin, Joe Deloach and Stanley Kerr cranking out some of the best prep deuces in history... in different divisions! Anyone else there that night who is willing to share their recall? By the way... the only non-Texan to crack that group on the '85 national list is also the only one still active as an elite athlete... name, anyone? _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
t-and-f: Carl as tough guy
Carl Lewis's website (www.carllewis.com) has some interesting clips of him as an actor. Check this puppy out, which requires quicktime (and an acceptance of naughty language) http://www.carllewis.com/video.acting.1.html
Re: t-and-f: more on prep records...
Walt Murphy wrote: there have only been ten sub-8:50 prep 2-milers since 1980! I actually thought there were more, so thanks for pointing that out. My point was simply that any of them might have broken the Steeplechase record if they ran it a few times. Steeple times and 2 mile times are roughly equivalent at the world level - actually Steeple times may even be ever so slightly faster, although it's hard to tell because the 2-mile is not run very often at that level. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: more on prep records...
I would have to guess Mike Marsh ... Although at 20.80 he was a little off the pace of the others ... Imagine .. 20.80 and off the pace Now THAT was a list ... Conway From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: more on prep records... Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 10:29:39 EDT Justin: I believe Derrick Florence is the name you are looking for (10.13 100m) Does bring back some memories, indeed. In particular, of the magical nights at the Texas State Meet in 1985 with Roy Martin, Joe Deloach and Stanley Kerr cranking out some of the best prep deuces in history... in different divisions! Anyone else there that night who is willing to share their recall? By the way... the only non-Texan to crack that group on the '85 national list is also the only one still active as an elite athlete... name, anyone? _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Records
Actually, Michael Graham ran sub 36 behind George Porter. I tend to agree with Conway. It will take another special collection of HSers to break that 4x400 record. Yes, a few have come close, but there is a reason they have not broken it. I that record breaking race Henry and Roy split sub 45, and that was a HS race. That Hawthorne team was a special one, you had Mike Marsh out of the hole, you had a sub 1:49 half miler who could run 47 out of the blocks, you had the second best 300IH at the time, who ran under 36, and you had arguably, the greatest all around HS sprinter in Henry Thomas. I believe there will always be teams hat look as though they have s hot, and will run close to the record, but the team that breaks that record will be another collection of special kids. DGS Faith is a road seldom traveled Let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12: 1-2
Re: t-and-f: Records
This discussion has brought up an interesting question. Why has the 10k been run so infrequently over the years? It seems as though in the 70's it was run at a regular rate, but now it is almost none existent. Faith is a road seldom traveled Let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12: 1-2
Re: t-and-f: koch wr
Steve wrote: However,to see this World record was awesome. I think the only person who could have a chance of challenging the womens 400 record would be Marion Jones and she may have to run it in a similar way ...really hit it hard early and use her huge strength to maintain form in the straight. I have a question .. Prior to Irena Szewinska women ran the 400 like a non sprint - more paced .. Irena brought the 400 to the land of the sprinter .. The E. Germans followed (Brehmer, Koch, Wockel, and others) ... And through the 80s and early 90s there was some true "speed" in the event (primarily Perec with some forays by Torrence and Privalova) ... Why is it that sprinters left the event ??? I mean Freeman has ok speed but nothing on the level of the others ... Breuer sprinted early in her career but has not since her return from suspension (and frankly I think is why she isn't the dominant Q-miler she should be) .. And even using Breuer as an example .. She runs so much better in the relays .. Primarily becasue she is behind and has to "sprint" during the first part of the race... Have female quartermilers abandonded the "sprint" philosphy of the quarter ??? And if so why ??? It is definitely a race in stagnation ... And I would not put it all on "drugs" as there definitely seems to be a chaneg in the race strategy itself - for the worse .. Conway _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: more on prep records...
In a message dated 4/4/01 8:24:25 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I would have to guess Mike Marsh ... Although at 20.80 he was a little off the pace of the others ... Imagine .. 20.80 and off the pace Now THAT was a list ... Here is the '85 list of "legal" HS 200 runners. Remember some of these names? 20.13 Roy Martin (Roosevelt, Dallas, Tx) 20.24 Joe DeLoach (Bay City, Tx) 20.61 Floyd Heard (Marshall, Milwaukee, Wi) 20.4Stanley Kerr (Snook, Tx) 6/19/67 Henry Thomas (Hawthorne, Ca) (+20.69) 20.76 Michael Timpson (Miami Lakes, Hialeah, Fl) 20.82 Michael Marsh (Hawthorne, Ca) 20.97 Danny Everett (Fairfax, Los Angeles, Ca) Jack Shepard
Re: t-and-f: more on prep records...
Speaking of great HS 200's, anyone recall the 1988 CalHi version? I know I do, although I think the LA City Championship that year was more stunning. But to see Quincy and Brian Bridgewater battle down that home stretch was astounding. Has there ever been a fast 1-2? I know there have been faster 1's, and maybe 2's in separate races, but I believe the times these 2 posted were amazing for a HS meet. If memory serves me correctly they ran 20.55 and 20.60 respectively in that race, correct me if I am wrong someone. Also, that probably marked the biggest mistake in Quincy's HS career. He should have run the 400 in that meet because he was coming off of a hamstring injury. He had just set the City record of 46.66, but chose the 200 at State. DGS Faith is a road seldom traveled Let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12: 1-2
Re: t-and-f: koch wr
From what I have observed over the years the stagnation has been rooted in the misconception hat women cannot handle the race. Coupled with the unwillingness of the current crop of sprinters to accept the challenge of the race. I see the talent out there, but they are running the 100 and 200. And there are a few men that fit that description also. If you are a woman that runs 11.2 and 22.5, you should be running the 400. If you are a man that can run 10.1 - 10.2, and 20.2 - 20.3, you should be running the 400. DGS Faith is a road seldom traveled Let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12: 1-2
Re: t-and-f: more on prep records...
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has there ever been a fast[er?] 1-2? I know there have been faster 1's, and maybe 2's in separate races, Do you mean a closer 1-2 at a fast time? If there have been faster 2's, then I should think the corresponding 1 was also faster, making the 1-2 faster... Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - AbleDesign, Web Design that Can! http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
Re: t-and-f: koch wr
Darrell wrote: From what I have observed over the years the stagnation has been rooted in the misconception hat women cannot handle the race. Coupled with the unwillingness of the current crop of sprinters to accept the challenge of the race. I see the talent out there, but they are running the 100 and 200. And there are a few men that fit that description also. If you are a woman that runs 11.2 and 22.5, you should be running the 400. If you are a man that can run 10.1 - 10.2, and 20.2 - 20.3, you should be running the 400. I would agree with that assessment ... Men and women ... On the women's side I think we've gotten away from the days when Merlene Ottey was running the 400 (in addition to the short sprints)Eveleyn Ashford ran some 400s .. FloJO when she was just Florence ... And the eastern bloc sprinters ran all 3 sprints ... Even here in the States Chandra Cheeseborough and Valerie Brisco moved UP to the 400 ... And almost 20 years later are still the top 2 US Q-milers ... Pam Marshall in a brief attempt before being struck down by injury broke 50 and would have surely been great at the distance .. It has been shown that times around 11.00 and 22.00 make for the best Q-milers .. Am surprised that some sprinters would rather never have a shot at any kind of medal in teh 100 or 200 than move up a notch and have a true chance ... Same on the men' side ... The 2 best of the last decade, Watts and Johnson were both sprinters with good 100 speed but injury prone who made the long sprint(s) look like cake walks ... A guy like Obikwelu for example who may never have a true shot at 100 glory due to his late get a way .. Coould be awesome at the 200/400 double ... I know it hurts some ... But not enough to forgo the opportunity that presents itself to some of these athletes ... Or maybe I am wrong ... Conway _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: more on prep records...
Jack wrote: Here is the '85 list of "legal" HS 200 runners. Remember some of these names? 20.13 Roy Martin (Roosevelt, Dallas, Tx) 20.24 Joe DeLoach (Bay City, Tx) 20.61 Floyd Heard (Marshall, Milwaukee, Wi) 20.4Stanley Kerr (Snook, Tx) 6/19/67 Henry Thomas (Hawthorne, Ca) (+20.69) 20.76 Michael Timpson (Miami Lakes, Hialeah, Fl) 20.82 Michael Marsh (Hawthorne, Ca) 20.97 Danny Everett (Fairfax, Los Angeles, Ca) Talk about a class: Martin - 1988 Olympic team Deloach - 1988 Olympic gold medallist - 19.75 beating none other than Carl Lewis Heard - a #1 world ranker, NCAA champion and made the 2000 Olympic team in the event -- and there is the answer to the previous trivia question ! Thomas - an NCAA champion Marsh - 1992 Olympic champion - 20.01 (19.73 semi) Everrett - 1988 Olympic Bronze medallist at 400 - 44.09 with 43.81pr Has any class in any event ever been as successful ??? NCAA champions, Olympic champions and medallists .. And as of last year Heard and Marsh were still going strong at or under the 20.00 level ... Conway _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Records
Darrell wrote: This discussion has brought up an interesting question. Why has the 10k been run so infrequently over the years? It seems as though in the 70's it was run at a regular rate, but now it is almost none existent. Good question .. Maybe it is my lack of knowlege on distance running, but I don't see many races outside of the 2 mile, 3200 meter range ... I was in high school in the 70s so maybe it more in my consciousness, but guys like Virgin, Hunt, Hulst, Williams, McChesney seemed to be running a lot more of the 5,000 , 10,000 type races ... Is that true or just a figment of my imagination ??? Conway _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
RE: t-and-f: Records (HS marathon)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Records (HS marathon) NO!!! This is precisely what is wrong with American marathoning! You can't just train for the 5K/10K, add a few long runs, and then run a good marathon. You have to train specifically for the 42.195K. You can have a period where you do 5K/10K training and racing, but you need a good 3 months of marathon-specific work. sideshow Let's not get too ambitious here. We're not talking about open athletes, but rather HS athletes. If a HS athlete is training for a 10k, they are already upping their mileage well beyond what they would do for their regular season training of 2 miles on the track or 5k xc. It is much more important to develop speed at a younger age because you can't reclaim it when you're older. I think the suggested strategy of training a bit longer and then stepping up is just right for HS. As for open athletes, I don't think the problem is so much training for shorter distances and then stepping up as that athletes now train less for the shorter distances than they have in the past. That makes stepping up much more difficult than in the past, and in part is probably a source of dismal US performances over the last decade plus. Richard McCann
t-and-f: Re: HS records
the runner-up at 10k is 28:55.0 by Eric Hulst in 1976. Hulst's was second to Chapa, and Bill McChessney was third in about 29:06, all at the US Juniors in Knoxville. They all were involved in a hot race the previous year as well in which the winner (who's name escapes me, but went to Tennessee and ran well in the NCAA 10k one year) scared Lindgren's record. Chapa ran in the 76 US Trials, but only around 30:00 in the heats. Richard McCann
t-and-f: Track accuracy
There was an article in the Oregonian newspaper today about the track at Willamette University in Salem. During some recent work to the track they discovered that each lap was actually 406m. The steeplechase was the only event that was accurately measured. No one is sure when the mistake was made, but it has probably been like that for some time. Just made me wonder how many other tracks like that are around. Matthew
RE: t-and-f: Records (HS marathon)
It is much more important to develop speed at a younger age because you can't reclaim it when you're older. Could someone delete this sentence from existance? Speed before endurance? M...dunno bout that one..;) That must be why hoards of Africans are running so well. You must develop a sound base of aerobic endurance through easy mileage and hard aerobic runs (threshold runs) before you introduce speed. Too much hard speedwork, not enough hard aerobic runs, that is part of the problem. Not training specifically for the marathon is yet another problem. Run a lot, week after week after week. Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: more on prep records...
Darrell wrote: Speaking of great HS 200's, anyone recall the 1988 CalHi version? I know I do, although I think the LA City Championship that year was more stunning. But to see Quincy and Brian Bridgewater battle down that home stretch was astounding. Has there ever been a fast 1-2? I know there have been faster 1's, and maybe 2's in separate races, but I believe the times these 2 posted were amazing for a HS meet. If memory serves me correctly they ran 20.55 and 20.60 respectively in that race, correct me if I am wrong someone. Also, that probably marked the biggest mistake in Quincy's HS career. He should have run the 400 in that meet because he was coming off of a hamstring injury. He had just set the City record of 46.66, but chose the 200 at State. That was one of the most classic 200s in CalHi history ... I don't remember the times specifically and am not home to look em up ... But sounds really close ... And I agree that Quincy should have run the 400 instead ... Oh well, he eventually did and the rest is Olympic history ... As for Cal state meet 200s another that sticks in my mind is the 77 and James Sanford stretch run against David Russell from Patrick Henry of SAn Diego ... Then the 400 and 200 were back to back and no one was trying that as a double .. Sanford was the state leader in both and did attempt the double ... He easily won the 400 in 46.60y (46.33 I believe is what it was converted to) ... And then with only the womens 200 as a rest came back to try the 200 ... Russell had won the 100 earlier and so the race pit the 2 sprint champs against easch other ... Russell was out fast and ran one H--- of a turn .. Coming off the turn quite clear of the field Russell looked to be heading for an easy victory .. But Sanford (initially sluggish from the 400) put on a burst of speed unlike few I have seen in any race (HS, colegiate or open) .. Russell was forced to lean at the finish .. Anxiously awaiting what seemed like forever (early accutrack days) Russell was the winner 20.97y to 21.00y (20.85 to 20.88 converted) if my memory is correct .. Not quite as fast as Bridgewater and Watts, but anyone that was in teh stadium will attest to the electricty and awe at Sanford's move down the stretch ... And that after about a 20 minute rest from an outstanding 400 ... Conway _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Track accuracy
Never trust what you read in the paper. ;-) Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was an article in the Oregonian newspaper today about the track at Willamette University in Salem. During some recent work to the track they discovered that each lap was actually 406m. The steeplechase was the only event that was accurately measured. No one is sure when the mistake was made, but it has probably been like that for some time. Just made me wonder how many other tracks like that are around. Matthew = http://AbleDesign.com - AbleDesign, Web Design that Can! http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
Re: t-and-f: Records
Darrell wrote: This discussion has brought up an interesting question. Why has the 10k been run so infrequently over the years? It seems as though in the 70's it was run at a regular rate, but now it is almost none existent. Conway wrote: Good question .. Maybe it is my lack of knowlege on distance running, but I don't see many races outside of the 2 mile, 3200 meter range ... I was in high school in the 70s so maybe it more in my consciousness, but guys like Virgin, Hunt, Hulst, Williams, McChesney seemed to be running a lot more of the 5,000 , 10,000 type races ... Is that true or just a figment of my imagination ??? It's definitely true that high schoolers rarely run a track 5K/10K anymore except for the few states where the 5000m is a regular high school event. I don't know how prevalent it used ot be, other than it seems that many of the best distance runners ran a few of them. How many of those 5K/10K races back then were high school only races and how many were open? It certainly seems true that with the lower weekly mileages that many high schoolers have been running the past 20 years, the 5K/10K might be less appealing. - ed Parrot
t-and-f: Re: unreal 10K times (was: HS records
In a message dated Wed, 4 Apr 2001 3:04:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hulst's was second to Chapa, and Bill McChessney was third in about 29:06, all at the US Juniors in Knoxville. Rich is confusing two races: Chapa set the 10K HSR of 28:32.7 at Drake in '76. At Knoxville in '75 Chapa and Hulst both set the previous HSR of 29:11.2. In retrospect, I think all the 10K marks at Knoxville that year (and who knows how many other years) were fraudulent. I only have some skimpy empirical evidence to go on, but consider this: Well, first, you need to understand that the track was 440y, not 400m, so they had to run 6M (24 laps) plus 376y. Let's assume the track was indeed 440y (and in a post several months back I posited that I thought/think that the track itself was short as a 440y oval to begin with, but that's another matter). I don't think they measured the 376y part properly; they came out short. Based on 6M splits, Chapa and Hulst (a pair of 17-year-olds) ran that last 376y in 48.4 seconds. On a hot, wet day in Knoxville, do I think they could finish a 10K at 56.3 pace? NOT! Let's consider some other evidence. Looking at earlier WR races, back when 6M was still an accepted distance, we find that in Ron Clarke's 27:39.4 he finished in 52.4. In an unratified 28:14.0 he ran 51.4. When Sandor Iharos WRed at 28:42.8 he needed 59.0 to finish. Were these 17-year-olds, in tough conditions, that much better than WR setters? I think not. And the next year, when Chapa ran the 28:32, his last 376y took him 56.3. In a "furious sprint" for 3rd and 4th at the '64 NCAA, 29:55 finishers did 52.1 and 52.8 (the winner did 58.0). I say the 48.4 splits are about impossible, and the 10K times should be stricken from the all-time lists. gh
Re: t-and-f: Records (HS marathon)
Let's delete this dichotomy entirely. Speed and endurance are not antithetical abilities. Think of it this way: if a runner had infinite speed and no endurance, the athlete would go nowhere quickly and in the converse, infinite endurance and no speed, the athlete would go nowhere and but not get tired. Of course list members are free to play with this reduction to absurdity. I think the point Lydiard and other have made is that young runners must avoid running in oxygen debt but do benefit from running very fast, even all-out, frequently for short burst no longer than 10 or 20 seconds, or the amount of time it takes to get to the soccer ball or first base. Tom Derderian, Greater Boston Track Club - Original Message - From: alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 7:16 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Records (HS marathon) It is much more important to develop speed at a younger age because you can't reclaim it when you're older. Could someone delete this sentence from existance? Speed before endurance? M...dunno bout that one..;) That must be why hoards of Africans are running so well. You must develop a sound base of aerobic endurance through easy mileage and hard aerobic runs (threshold runs) before you introduce speed. Too much hard speedwork, not enough hard aerobic runs, that is part of the problem. Not training specifically for the marathon is yet another problem. Run a lot, week after week after week. Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
t-and-f: Records
Don't forget that Devery's prep marathon best was set at Trail's End in oregon (not the fastest course around). He could have certainly run faster in a warm weather, no wind, flat and fast course. -Tom
Re: t-and-f: Track accuracy
OR the Net Dan Kaplan wrote: Never trust what you read in the paper. ;-) Dan --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was an article in the Oregonian newspaper today about the track at Willamette University in Salem. During some recent work to the track they discovered that each lap was actually 406m. The steeplechase was the only event that was accurately measured. No one is sure when the mistake was made, but it has probably been like that for some time. Just made me wonder how many other tracks like that are around. Matthew = http://AbleDesign.com - AbleDesign, Web Design that Can! http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/?.refer=text
RE: t-and-f: Re: HS records
Chapa ran his 28:32.7 at the '76 Drake Relays. He placed third I believe. Not sure who the Tennessee guy is ... but could it be Pat Davey (Brother Rice HS, '75)? -Original Message- From: Richard McCann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 1:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Re: HS records the runner-up at 10k is 28:55.0 by Eric Hulst in 1976. Hulst's was second to Chapa, and Bill McChessney was third in about 29:06, all at the US Juniors in Knoxville. They all were involved in a hot race the previous year as well in which the winner (who's name escapes me, but went to Tennessee and ran well in the NCAA 10k one year) scared Lindgren's record. Chapa ran in the 76 US Trials, but only around 30:00 in the heats. Richard McCann
t-and-f: Fw: USATF Release: Golden Spike Tour headlines eventful season of TF
I notice ESPN are showing the Princeton Invitational three weeks after it happens. I've noticed this sort of thing happens quite often in the U.S. I can understand stations may not have an immediate gap in the schedule but three weeks! Is ESPN a history channel or something? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 6:11 PM Subject: USATF Release: Golden Spike Tour headlines eventful season of TF Contact:Jill M. Geer Director of Communications 317-261-0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.usatf.org FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Wednesday, April 4, 2001 U.S. athletes on the road to Edmonton 2001 Outdoor Golden Spike Tour headlines eventful season of track and field INDIANAPOLIS - Two IAAF Grand Prix meets highlight USA Track Field's 2001 Outdoor Golden Spike Tour, announced Wednesday. The 2001 Outdoor Golden Spike Tour is part of a banner year for track and field in North America, with a full plate of world-class track and field on the track and on TV. Sponsored by adidas, GMC Envoy, Visa, SoBe Sports System, and Pontiac Grand Prix, this year's edition of USATF's signature event features the strongest schedule of the Tour's three-year history. Three nationally televised Golden Spike Tour meets lead up to the GMC Envoy USA Outdoor Track Field Championships, where Team USA's roster for the 2001 World Outdoor Track Field Championships in Edmonton, Canada, will be selected. "With Grand Prix Tour status for two meets, the success of Team USA at the Olympics and the buildup to the 2001 World Championships on North American soil, this is an exceptionally exciting year for the Golden Spike Tour," USATF CEO Craig Masback said. "2000 was a record-setting year for track and field in terms of attendance, and we have a chance to build on that success. With a full schedule this year, track and field will be on center stage through much of the summer." Many of the U.S. athletes who brought fans the most memorable moments of the 2000 Olympic Games will compete for significant prize money, in front of big crowds and before a national television audience as they head down the Road to Edmonton. As a prelude to the Golden Spike Tour, the elite USATF outdoor season kicks off April 28 with USA vs. THE WORLD at the Penn Relays, a special event within the Penn Relays that pits Team USA's top talent against relay teams from around the world. At USA vs. THE WORLD in 2000, the Marion Jones-anchored Team USA 4x200m relay broke a 20-year-old world record. Expanded sponsor backing has helped build upon last year's successful event. In 2001, Nike, GMC Envoy, Visa, SoBe Sports System and Pontiac Grand Prix are contributing their support to the event. The Golden Spike Tour gets rolling May 12 with the Princeton Invitational in New Jersey and continues June 3 with the adidas Oregon Track Classic (Grand Prix II) in Portland, Ore.; June 9 with the U.S. Open (Grand Prix I) in Palo Alto, Calif.; and June 21-24 with the GMC Envoy Outdoor Championships in Eugene, Ore. Athletes competing at Golden Spike Tour meets will be announced at a later date. In addition to organizing the Golden Spike Tour, USA Track Field is joining forces with the nation's top relay meets in an effort to further elite athlete development. The Fresno Relays April 7; Kansas Relays April 18-21; Mt. SAC Relays April 20-22; Drake Relays April 27-28; and Modesto Relays May 12 all will receive Golden Spike Tour "satellite" designation and will put on events featuring America's stars of the future. "All of these relay meets are steeped in history and draw some of the biggest track and field crowds in the world," Masback said. "We hope to keep the momentum of the last several years going on every level from high school to elite by covering the travel and housing costs of athletes in key events of these meets." The United States also is the site of a third IAAF Grand Prix meet with the Prefontaine Classic May 27 in Eugene, Ore. Now in its 27th year, the Prefontaine Classic is considered the premiere meet in the country, with international fields that typically feature numerous world record holders and gold medalists. Like the Golden Spike Tour, the meet has a national television audience. A highlight of the summer TV schedule is a "Weekend of Track Field," which begins early on June 10. ESPN2's broadcast of the adidas Oregon Track Classic begins the weekend at 12:30 a.m. ET Sunday morning - Saturday night on the West Coast. Broadcasts continue with two more meets Sunday afternoon, both on CBS: the NCAA Championships and the U.S. Open. U.S. meets are not the only major international events that American audiences will get to see. ABC and ESPN will be broadcasting the World Championships in early August, the IAAF Golden League series and the IAAF Grand Prix Final,
Re: t-and-f: Track accuracy
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There was an article in the Oregonian newspaper today about the track at Willamette University in Salem. During some recent work to the track they discovered that each lap was actually 406m. The steeplechase was the only event that was accurately measured. No one is sure when the mistake was made, but it has probably been like that for some time. Just made me wonder how many other tracks like that are around. Matthew In my work as a track and field consultant, a major part of which is providing calculations and drawings for track markings, I encounter many mis-measured tracks, especially but not exclusively on the high school level. About 25% or so of all high school tracks I have become involved with after construction was complete couldn't be marked without additional material being added either inside or outside the oval! -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx™ 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com "Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
RE: t-and-f: Re: unreal 10K times (was: HS records
1) Where did McChesney run the 29:06.8? Junior Nats? Senior Nats? I think it was in an open meet in Eugene. Where was Hulst's 28:55.0 run? I heard it was run on a sub-standard track. Anyone? 2) For those of you who believe in "Purdy-style" equivalent charts, a 28:32 is far superior to the 8:36 2-mile record and the 13:44 HS record ... according to those charts. A 28:32 = 8:29y. I guess, without charts, a 28:30-29:00 10k runner would have the opportunity (back in the day at least) to have run an indoor 2-mile, or an outdoor 3-Mile or 5k ... and they could comment on which marks are truly "unreal" as the subject line says ...
Re: t-and-f: Records
In a message dated 4/4/01 10:54:14 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: but guys like Virgin, Hunt, Hulst, Williams, McChesney seemed to be running a lot more of the 5,000 , 10,000 type races ... Is that true or just a figment of my imagination ??? tis true. Take '72 as a typical example-- 13 under 14:30 at 3M (but only 2 under 15 at 5K), 20 under 31:50 at 6M, 8 under 32:30 at 10K and 28 under 2:45 in the marathon. Today one has to really search to find more than one or two performers under 15:00 (5K), 33:00(10K) and 3:00 hours in the marathon. Jack Shepard
t-and-f: All-Star High School Team
In a message dated 4/4/01 9:22:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Conway Hill writes concerning Hawthorne HS of Hawthorne, California: It was really the equivalent of an all star team ... The likes of which may never be seen again at a single school I think it is quite possible that we will see a team like that again. Just look at little Modesto Christian in basketball. They had ex-49ers Bubba Paris' son plus three players from England. A school of 200+ students won the Northern California Division I (large schools) basketball title this year. It is much easier now to go to another high school, rather than your neighborhood school. Watch out for St. Mary's of Berkeley. They are building quite an outstanding team and coaching staff. Plus they added Rod Jett, who was ranked ninth in the US in the 110 hurdles in 1992, and Richie Boulet, who was ranked fourth in the US in the 1,500 in 1998, to their coaching staff this spring. Senior Halihl Guy (St. Mary's, Berkeley) won the 110 hurdles (14.75 2.3) and 400 hurdles (54.16) at the Stanford Invitational last Saturday with the coaching of Rod Jett. Keith Conning 735 Brookside Drive Vacaville, CA 95688-3509 FAX: 707-778-7667 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WEB: http://hometown.aol.com/conning/myhomepage/index.html
Re: t-and-f: Re: unreal 10K times (was: HS records
Good lord, can we just let it be? Maybe every track in America is off by a fraction of an inch? That would make all times fraudulent. Maybe they all would have ran faster on today's synthetic tracks. It doesn't really matter. They ran the race, they recorded times, it's a done deal. Alan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: Re: unreal 10K times (was: HS records Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2001 15:39:17 EDT In a message dated Wed, 4 Apr 2001 3:04:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Richard McCann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hulst's was second to Chapa, and Bill McChessney was third in about 29:06, all at the US Juniors in Knoxville. Rich is confusing two races: Chapa set the 10K HSR of 28:32.7 at Drake in '76. At Knoxville in '75 Chapa and Hulst both set the previous HSR of 29:11.2. In retrospect, I think all the 10K marks at Knoxville that year (and who knows how many other years) were fraudulent. I only have some skimpy empirical evidence to go on, but consider this: Well, first, you need to understand that the track was 440y, not 400m, so they had to run 6M (24 laps) plus 376y. Let's assume the track was indeed 440y (and in a post several months back I posited that I thought/think that the track itself was short as a 440y oval to begin with, but that's another matter). I don't think they measured the 376y part properly; they came out short. Based on 6M splits, Chapa and Hulst (a pair of 17-year-olds) ran that last 376y in 48.4 seconds. On a hot, wet day in Knoxville, do I think they could finish a 10K at 56.3 pace? NOT! Let's consider some other evidence. Looking at earlier WR races, back when 6M was still an accepted distance, we find that in Ron Clarke's 27:39.4 he finished in 52.4. In an unratified 28:14.0 he ran 51.4. When Sandor Iharos WRed at 28:42.8 he needed 59.0 to finish. Were these 17-year-olds, in tough conditions, that much better than WR setters? I think not. And the next year, when Chapa ran the 28:32, his last 376y took him 56.3. In a "furious sprint" for 3rd and 4th at the '64 NCAA, 29:55 finishers did 52.1 and 52.8 (the winner did 58.0). I say the 48.4 splits are about impossible, and the 10K times should be stricken from the all-time lists. gh _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: unreal 10K times (was: HS records
In a message dated 4/4/01 12:52:49 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Where did McChesney run the 29:06.8? Junior Nats? Senior Nats? I think it was in an open meet in Eugene. Where was Hulst's 28:55.0 run? I heard it was run on a sub-standard track. McChesney's 29:06.8 was for 3rd at the Oregon Invitational Relays in mid-March. Hulst's 28:55.0 was at UC Irvine at their Meet of Champions (2nd) in late March. Jack Shepard
RE: t-and-f: Records (HS marathon)
NO!!! This is precisely what is wrong with American marathoning! You can't just train for the 5K/10K, add a few long runs, and then run a good marathon. You have to train specifically for the 42.195K. You can have a period where you do 5K/10K training and racing, but you need a good 3 months of marathon-specific work. sideshow didn't Todd Williams runs his PR in the marathon (and on his debut) based off of his 5k/10k training? then after switching to the higher mileage/less speed marathon program he didn't do as well. of course this is just one guythough i hear khannouchi basically sticks with his 10k based road racing program but adds long tempo runs of 20M when a marathon is coming up. joel
t-and-f: East German women all looked peculiar
In a message dated 4/4/01 9:22:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The East German women all looked peculiar in that there was no body hair at all but they were very muscled. All had very large protruding hipflexor muscles like eggs near their hips! Steve Bennett I attended an All-Star Meet between the U.S. and East Germany at the Los Angeles Coliseum in 1966. I was seated on the aisle. Two athletes walked by and I could only see their legs. I assumed it was two male athletes. To my surprise it was two East German women. Keith Conning 735 Brookside Drive Vacaville, CA 95688-3509 FAX: 707-778-7667 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WEB: http://hometown.aol.com/conning/myhomepage/index.html
RE: t-and-f: Re: unreal 10K times (was: HS records
(and in a post several months back I posited that I thought/think that the track itself was short as a 440y oval to begin with, but that's another matter). In light of these types of "shortcomings" ... Is every track, where a record of any importance is broken (AR, WR, NR), ALWAYS known to be 400m according to the IAAF measurement specifications? Or, do they just assume that the meet had records set there before ... and let the status quo alone? I know the measurement process for field events is rigorous, is a "survey" done of the track after a record? OLD JOKE: My running friend used to say that the Bislett track was short (Dream mile). He said that every June, Steve Scott camped out in the infield overnight and painted the lines in a little closer each year.
Re: t-and-f: Track accuracy
In a message dated 4/4/01 4:27:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: During some recent work to the track they discovered that each lap was actually 406m. How many laps does this track have? ;-) Mike
Re: t-and-f: Records (HS marathon)
didn't Todd Williams runs his PR in the marathon (and on his debut) based off of his 5k/10k training? then after switching to the higher mileage/less speed marathon program he didn't do as well. of course this is just one guythough i hear khannouchi basically sticks with his 10k based road racing program but adds long tempo runs of 20M when a marathon is coming up. Well, if Todd altered his program to have "less speed" and replaced it with easy mileage, no wonder he got slower. It's impossible to say definitively that adding a few long/tempo runs to 5K/10K training works or doesn't work. A lot of it depends on what your 5k/10K training was like to begin with. How fast do you run on your easy days, how hard are your hard days? Many of the really successful runners have quite a bit of work at marathon pace or faster. My understanding of Dr. Rosa's system, for example, is that they take this to an extreme and never do the really fast stuff, but have at least a portion of their run at marathon pace of faster 5 or 6 times per week. It is 85-90% workouts done day after day after day that do the trick. Some 5K/10K runners are already doing this to some extent, which is why they don't have to alter their training all that much to do a good marathon. The risk of injury or burnout is significant, but so are the potential rewards. - ed Parrot
RE: t-and-f: Re: HS records
George Watts? Pat Davey? Where's my prize? malmo They all were involved in a hot race the previous year as well in which the winner (who's name escapes me, but went to Tennessee and ran well in the NCAA 10k one year) scared Lindgren's record. Chapa ran in the 76 US Trials, but only around 30:00 in the heats. Richard McCann
t-and-f: New Speedometers
If anyone has used the new FitSense or Nike "Speedometers" (devices that calculate distance run etc), and is willing to share your experiences and thoughts, I would appreciate your thoughts. Email me directly if you prefer. Glenn McCarthy
Re: t-and-f: All-Star High School Team
Conning wrote: In a message dated 4/4/01 9:22:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Conway Hill writes concerning Hawthorne HS of Hawthorne, California: It was really the equivalent of an all star team ... I think it is quite possible that we will see a team like that again. Just look at little Modesto Christian in basketball. They had ex-49ers Bubba Paris' son plus three players from England. A school of 200+ students won the Northern California Division I (large schools) basketball title this year. It is much easier now to go to another high school, rather than your neighborhood school. Watch out for St. Mary's of Berkeley. They are building quite an outstanding team and coaching staff. Plus they added Rod Jett, who was ranked ninth in the US in the 110 hurdles in 1992, and Richie Boulet, who was ranked fourth in the US in the 1,500 in 1998, to their coaching staff this spring. Senior Halihl Guy (St. Mary's, Berkeley) won the 110 hurdles (14.75 2.3) and 400 hurdles (54.16) at the Stanford Invitational last Saturday with the coaching of Rod Jett. True Modesto Christian did do that ... Underwent a lot of scrutiny however, and everything had to be perfectly in place ... But if I were going to see it done (at least in N CA) it would be in Berkeley ... There has always been a lot of questions there regarding attendance lines and who should be at what school ... Even back in the Pete Richardson, Kenny Robinson, Sharon Ware days when they were ruling the state ... And the CIF doesn't like that sort of thing too much ... So it can be done ... And St Marys may be doing it ... But when the complaints start to come (and they will) I hope everything is in order ... Even at that finding 4 teens in the same general community to average under 46.8 per leg ... Hard under any conditions ... The Harrison twins came with 2 from the same house and were only 3:13 or so ... Berkeley's all star squad (star sprinter, star half miler, star hurdler) smashed what was the previous record and "only" ran 3:08.94 ... Muir had another star laden team with Obea Moore and Sultan McCullough and "only" went 3:08.66 ... Roy Martin's teams with him running 44 sec anchors never broke 3:09.00 ... The 3:07.40, along with Carter's 81'3 and a few discussed distance marks are almost other worldly Conway Conway _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
t-and-f: Microsoft sponsors Commonwealth Games
I found the following online and was surprised this had not been discussed. I had half-jokingly proposed this to Craig Masback about a year ago, but it never went anywhere to my knowledge. The big question is, why are they not sponsoring this type of thing in the US? Someone out in TF land must have a contact here. MJR __ Microsoft sponsors Commonwealth Games LONDON (April 2, 2001 8:45 a.m. EDT http://www.sportserver.com) - American computer giants Microsoft was announced Monday as an official sponsor for next year's Commonwealth Games in Manchester, England. The company founded by billionaire Bill Gates has signed up as an official sponsor and technology supplier, giving the Games finances a much-needed multi-million pound boost. With 479 days to go before the Games open, Manchester 2002 organizers have signed up only five official sponsors, the title given to companies contributing more than 2 million pounds ($2.94 million) in support. Of the 62 million pounds ($91.14 million) targeted to stage the event profitably, only 30 million pounds ($44.1 million) has so far been raised - but organizers remain hopeful that more sponsors will come on board in the next few months. Manchester recently drafted in many high-profile members of the Sydney Olympic organizing committee to assist with the build-up to the Games, a similar style competition restricted to members of the Commonwealth, a group of countries largely made up of nations once part of the British Empire. And Manchester 2002 commercial director Niels de Vos remains upbeat that his team will make up the financial shortfall before the Games begin. De Vos said: "Including this deal we have raised 30million pounds. We are still in negotiations with other potential sponsors. "We are confident we can raise the remaining deficit through sponsorship, broadcasting, ticketing and licensing. "It would be unfair to mention which companies we are talking with and we will not comment on speculated names until agreements are reached. But we do not have financial worries."
Re: t-and-f: New Speedometers
Glenn, Several of our GBTC guys have the FitSense devices and love them. It is like having a certified course with you where every you go. With that and a heart monitor all a runner might need is some CommonSense. Of course I must confess one of our guys invented it. (The FitSense device not CommonSense.) I was part of a group trying to invent such a device at Nike in the early 80s. (we failed) Tom Derderian, Greater Boston Track Club - Original Message - From: Mccarthy, Glenn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 6:29 PM Subject: t-and-f: New "Speedometers" If anyone has used the new FitSense or Nike "Speedometers" (devices that calculate distance run etc), and is willing to share your experiences and thoughts, I would appreciate your thoughts. Email me directly if you prefer. Glenn McCarthy
Re: t-and-f: Fullerton humor
In a message dated 4/4/01 11:41:07 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ps--does anybody but a an over-40 sportswriter actually use the term "thinclad" anymore? How about "harrier"? If it wasn't for Marc Bloom, I doubt anyone would even know what the term means. Jim Gerweck Running Times
Re: t-and-f: Fullerton humor
Where does the term "thinclad" come from? I remember seeing it used in the local paper way back when in the 80s. Does anybody remember what basketball players were called? A.C. In a message dated 4/4/01 3:54:46 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ps--does anybody but a an over-40 sportswriter actually use the term "thinclad" anymore? How about "harrier"? If it wasn't for Marc Bloom, I doubt anyone would even know what the term means. Jim Gerweck Running Times
t-and-f: Re: HS 10ks
At 12:53 PM 4/4/2001 -0700, t-and-f-digest wrote.. Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 12:59:14 EDT From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Records This discussion has brought up an interesting question. Why has the 10k been run so infrequently over the years? It seems as though in the 70's it was run at a regular rate, but now it is almost none existent. The advent of the road race. HS kids rarely ran road races at that time. In 1976, I ran a race with 900 runners that was the biggest to date in Washington State. Now that's typical. There's a race every weekend, whereas they were maybe once a month, and a variety of distances in the 1970s. Running a 10k on the track seems a daunting task, while a road 10k is just another training run, but a bit faster. Richard McCann
t-and-f: 1988 200 m
Who took the bronze in that race? And what was the time? I know Joe and Carl, but who took third? Faith is a road seldom traveled Let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12: 1-2
Re: t-and-f: koch wr
Naw, 800 runners should run the 400IH Faith is a road seldom traveled Let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12: 1-2
RE: t-and-f: koch wr
Nah, 100/200 types should not run the 400. They should run the 400 hurdles! Cory Beard
Re: t-and-f: Fullerton humor
Basketball player were called cagers. Steve
Re: t-and-f: Fullerton humor
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anybody remember what basketball players were called? Cagers? Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - AbleDesign, Web Design that Can! http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Free Contests... @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] |\/ ^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] (lifetime forwarding address) / / (503)370-9969 phone/fax __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Re: t-and-f: Fullerton humor
Cagers Faith is a road seldom traveled Let us run with patience the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" Hebrews 12: 1-2
t-and-f: Jon Entine/Jim Brown
I missed the beginning of the show, but Jon Entine, Jim Brown and John Edgar Wideman(?) are discussing race and athletics on Bob Costas' show on HBO. Don't know what time it airs in the rest of the country, but it will probably be repeated during the week. Walt Murphy
Re: t-and-f: Fullerton humor
Do Hash House Harriers count? Lots of them! Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/4/01 11:41:07 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ps--does anybody but a an over-40 sportswriter actually use the term "thinclad" anymore? How about "harrier"? If it wasn't for Marc Bloom, I doubt anyone would even know what the term means. Jim Gerweck Running Times
Re: t-and-f: 1988 200 m
Darrell Asked: Who took the bronze in that race? And what was the time? I know Joe and Carl, but who took third? Robson Da Silva in 20.04. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Fullerton humor
How about "harrier"? If it wasn't for Marc Bloom, I doubt anyone would even know what the term means. Its literal meaning is one who chases hares. But it's not too hard to see how that was stretched to mean cross country runners. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: 1988 200 m
Darrell wrote: Who took the bronze in that race? And what was the time? I know Joe and Carl, but who took third? I believe that was Robson DaSilva in 20.04 ... Conway _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
